The free-will doctrine can make people phony. Why? Because many people are afraid of going to hell. What is thier motivation for being nice? Love of God or fear of God?
Calvinism solves this problem somewhat. However, Calvanism is still false because the Bible says God came to save the world and desires that none perish. Also Calvinism is unjust as our consciences testify.
Ex: Jonathan Edwards story about an retrobate infant over the flames of Hell.
So only Universal Salvation gives us true peace of mind and creates real not plastic Christians. Right? It's another thing which proves UC.
Free-will is also the only way you can do anything out of Love of God.
Quote from: jy76tn on December 09, 2007, 05:11:30 AM
So only Universal Salvation gives us true peace of mind and creates real not plastic Christians. Right? It's another thing which proves UC.
I believe that only a relationship with God and Him indwelling us gives us true peace of mind. :Sparkletooth:
Plastic people- now there's a good ole 70s term! That's what I thought of the first church folks I ever saw- plastic....
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: hopefulPlastic people- now there's a good ole 70s term! That's what I thought of the first church folks I ever saw- plastic....
:laughing7:
QuotePlastic people- now there's a good ole 70s term! That's what I thought of the first church folks I ever saw- plastic....
So I just moved to Oklahoma from the beaches of SoCal to attend college. For some crazy forgotten reason I joined the Baptist Student Union intramural flag football team. After the first play of the first game I came back to the huddle all fired up and shouting obscenities about our opponents. My team mates were aghast and told me, "I couldn't swear because this was a Christian team I was on." :omg:
I was doubly aghast and said, "you mean to tell me, you play football without swearing!" :LH:
That was the beginning of a long season for both parties; the team and myself %$##%!!#!
I also believe those prudish BSU boy's set God's plan back by five years as far as getting me saved. :laughing7:
Jack
Quote from: SOtW on December 09, 2007, 08:35:00 AM
Free-will is also the only way you can do anything out of Love of God.
I find free-will more of a curse than a blessing. It tends to get us into trouble rather than liberate us from it.
Quote from: SOtW on December 09, 2007, 08:35:00 AM
Free-will is also the only way you can do anything out of Love of God.
AMEN!! Without free-will we cant do anything, God does it all... our love is only becuase God makes it happen, so in essance it is not us loving.
IMO, Calvinism is a dark belief :mshock:
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
There are plenty other verses in the Bible that state that we may plan things but whether we actually do them or not is up to God's will and intention.
We may be free in a certain sense to plan, but not free to carry out those plans.
Tony N.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2008, 01:55:37 PM
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
There are plenty other verses in the Bible that state that we may plan things but whether we actually do them or not is up to God's will and intention.
We may be free in a certain sense to plan, but not free to carry out those plans.
Tony N.
Exactly, free-will is not the ability to carry out those plans. Free-will is the ability to recongize our way, and plans.
Quote from: SOtW on January 31, 2008, 07:01:58 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2008, 01:55:37 PM
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
There are plenty other verses in the Bible that state that we may plan things but whether we actually do them or not is up to God's will and intention.
Tony N.
Exactly, free-will is not the ability to carry out those plans. Free-will is the ability to recongize our way, and plans.
It is written however that "God gives the desires of one's heart".
If man does in fact have free will, the question is, where did he get it? I have been doing a lot of thinking this past week, and I have determined that the source of man's "free will" is none other than that forbidden tree Adam and Eve ate off of. The proposition that the serpent gave was "You will be gods". In short, "You will have free will". In having free will, we tend to be our own sovereign instead of acknowledging the sovereignty of God. A sovereign is responsible for the actions of those he rules over. Therefore, if we are our own sovereign, then indeed we are responsible for our own actions. However, if we acknowledge that God is sovereign, then we are thereby relieved of responsibility, since the sovereignty of our lives comes from an external source rather than ourselves.
Chuck
Free-will is not our own sovereignty, it means you have choices. Having Free-Will is not 'we are god', it was the choice to eat of the tree or not, which is free-will. When will people realize this? Adam did not recieve free-will after he disobeyed the command; it was a result of free-will that he could! Free-will is the cause, and we have all be seeing the consequences of Adam's sin.
Our will is limited, His will is unlimited. Our will will die, His will is immortal. So as long as you live, you have free-will, nd you are therefore responsible and accountable for everything and thus suffer the consequences of your deeds and actions, and so will your family and so will those around you. That is why we are to submit to God, and resist the devil. If we submit to God, we don't give up our accountability or responsibility, but we do give up our power to God, who will make the crooked pathes straight again. A Sovereign Lord is responsible for correcting his subjects, not excusing their evil behaviors.
What I see here is an inability still to accept one's own actions and behaviors as their own.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
This is not talking about after you die, this is talking about NOW, today.
Chuck, subtract the extraneus propositional conclusion of 'we thereby relieved of responsibility' part, the truth is: "If we acknowledge that God is sovereign [in our lives], then the sovereignty of our lives comes from an external source rather than ourselves."
This is not talking about what happens after we die, because:
Romans 6:7 Anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Once you die, you are already freed from sin. You don't need to die to be freed from sin. Jesus died for all once and for all, and therefore all have died. Yet, many do not know this, even though they think they understand it. They continue to think that because they are dead to sin in Christ Jesus, that they are free to sin without consequence.
Jude 1:4, 17-18
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and [therefore] deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
That is why Jesus said, we do not need to die nor face death to experience Eternal Life.
John 8:51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
For those who continue to deny they have free-will, and deny the responsibilty and accountability of their actions and words are the ones who live not for God, but for themselves. Those who accept their responsibility and acountability of their actoins and words, are the ones who are able to confess to God their sins and submit to God their lives. Without free-will, there is no submission to God, without free-will, there would never have been disobedience in the first place.
Hmmm....I would think the action of partaking of the tree is an exercise of free will, therefore it existed prior to the eating.
Anyways, I firmly believe in free-will. Without it, could there be love? Even if love existed, would you know that it was love, without freedom to choose it?
Without choices, nothing matters. Consider the manna from heaven. Even if it was the best tasting stuff in the world, would you enjoy it 365 days a year? How would you even know it tasted good, if you had nothing to compare to?
I find the sorrows, mistakes, sins of my life help me to realize just how wonderful most of my life truly is, and reminds me to strive for the proper path. The freedom to choose wrongly reminds me of the right choices.
Craig,
It's also written "As a man thinks of himself, so is he". Who said I was a sinner to begin with? God, or Man?
God made me. Because God is perfect, I am also perfect, for perfection can only create perfection. However indeed, I was not created infallible. The only sin I have ever committed was believing that I ever was a sinner! :wink2: And that was after being influenced by men, not by God. You may think I'm a sinner. That makes me a sinner just as much as it makes Jesus one.
You, and many others, confuse "free will" with "free choice". True, we are free to choose, but our choices are governed by cause and effect. Case in point: What person do you know who is dying of thirst, and when he is given a ice cold jug of water, refuses it? He is free to reject it, so to speak, but nobody ever does.
Free will huh? Hold your breath for 2 years. Can you do it? What?? You can't? Why? Don't you have free will? What if the prize for holding your breath for 2 years was 900 trillion dollars? Who would refuse that? (I know, I know, Jesus was tempted with the kingdoms of the world. But He's God. We're not!) The point I am making is that we are not the masters of our destiny, which is what is the common theme in free will.
Craig, I tend to think you fear lacking free will because it would mean that things would be beyond your control. You, and everyone else, including myself, have a natural tendancy to want to be in control. A cult I was once involved in was really big on this free will thing. So much so, that anyone without a free will was considered demonically possessed. (They preferred the term "possessed by a devil spirit") Just think of the fear and anxiety it causes those who are weak and unlearned. Those evil pigs would in fact be taking the wrong advantage of such a person.
Furthermore, if we continue to adamantly insist on our free will, then when it comes time for the reckoning, we will find that we will severely fall short of what was expected of us, and then we can only blame ourselves. Then our prides will be hurt badly. Like I said, free will is a curse, unless perhaps you are infallible. And I will say this with all authority based on my own personal experience. Anytime that I had walked with a free will mindset, it always spelled disaster. Without free will, you are also without pride. I personally hate pride. It gets hurt too damn easily, and I don't like getting hurt. I have gone through life always getting hurt, and it was all because of pride, brought on by free will.
We can argue this ad nauseum. I guess you are going to have to learn by experience. You're young, so you have a whole life ahead of you. When I was your age, the best thing I could believe in was annihilation, rather than universal salvation. I wished I could have believed in UR then, but it was not meant to be at that time. I often say if I knew then what I know now, things would have been a lot different. Indeed, it would be, but would it have complied to God's plans?
Chuck
Quote from: Reverend G on February 10, 2008, 06:18:03 AM
Hmmm....I would think the action of partaking of the tree is an exercise of free will, therefore it existed prior to the eating.
Anyways, I firmly believe in free-will. Without it, could there be love? Even if love existed, would you know that it was love, without freedom to choose it?
Without choices, nothing matters. Consider the manna from heaven. Even if it was the best tasting stuff in the world, would you enjoy it 365 days a year? How would you even know it tasted good, if you had nothing to compare to?
I find the sorrows, mistakes, sins of my life help me to realize just how wonderful most of my life truly is, and reminds me to strive for the proper path. The freedom to choose wrongly reminds me of the right choices.
Reverend G,
In regards to your manna question, that's pretty much how I feel about peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I rarely eat them, but when I do, I do in fact enjoy them.
I am aware of the love concept, but I sometimes wonder if there is any real love in the world. I tend to live a rather private life, my only contact with the outside world, other than work, is through the internet. I realize that we as humans are social creatures, but I value my time alone alot.
Chuck
QuoteCraig, I tend to think you fear lacking free will because it would mean that things would be beyond your control.
Actually it is not. It is opposite actually. Those who are scared of their own actions and cannot bear the responsibility and accountability of their actions are the ones who are in fear. Period. There is nothing I have presented to ever indicate my belief comes from fear; however, quoting you, I know where you belief comes from.
You said December 13,2007
Quotepersonally tend to incline to agree with the absolute Sovereignty of God as of late. Otherwise, I would be responsible for my own actions, and I personally HATE responsibility myself.
See. You can't pull fast ones on me. I am very precise in what I believe and nothing is based on emotionalism nor emotional appeals.
There is no definition of free-will which says I have control over anything I cannot control. That is your definition of free-will, you think free-will means that you must be all powerful, all knowing, and have control. So now you should know it is not true.
QuoteYou, and everyone else, including myself, have a natural tendancy to want to be in control.
Actually I don't. I trust in the Lord almost entirely for my life. Where ever God leads me, I am sent and I do not know what the future has in store, but I have no fear. Those who want to control everything, are in fear of losing something. I have nothing to lose, my life was lost many years ago. What I dislike is when people make up lies about me to justify their belief system. That is called an Ad Homimem attack, and used as a strawman to justify their position. There is no fact to any accusation you have made. My need for control, is not there; it is a perception you have, not a reality of who I am.
QuoteFurthermore, if we continue to adamantly insist on our free will, then when it comes time for the reckoning, we will find that we will severely fall short of what was expected of us, and then we can only blame ourselves.
Now you are getting it, that is the ENTIRE PURPOSE. Your inability to blame yourself, and acknowlege your actions, however, has led you to down a path of destruction. I have no fear of hating myself, I have no fear of knowing what I did has affected someone adversely. These things I do not fear, because everyone has control of their actions and reactions and if I did something to cause someone pain, inadvertantly, God knows my intentions and my heart and He is always faithful to forgive. So we are back only one you can blame for your sins, is yourself. So repent and confess your sins, recieve your discipline and choose the Life. He has already forgiven you, now you need to forgive yourself.
QuoteLike I said, free will is a curse, unless perhaps you are infallible
Free-will is a tool. It is the tongue which steers ships, and a spark that can cause forest fires. The need to polarize things as good and evil in all terms, is a failure to understand the neutrality of creation.
QuoteAnytime that I had walked with a free will mindset, it always spelled disaster.
That is because you do not know the difference between what is good and what is evil. That is because you fail to recognize that you must submit to God, and resist the devil so that he may flee from you; you need to not give the devil a foothold in your life. You think that doing good gives you favors? No, you were created to do good works, it is expected of you as that is your purpose. You think that doing evil will gain you an advantage? Do not be misled, God cannot be mocked; whatever you sow you shall reap.
No, free-will is not the problem. It is what you do and say, which is the problem. From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. That is why we must have accept the new heart, we must repent of our sin, and continually wash our minds by the Word of God. Continually live in Love, submit to God in all things.
QuoteI personally hate pride. It gets hurt too damn easily, and I don't like getting hurt. I have gone through life always getting hurt, and it was all because of pride, brought on by free will.
Not at all, pride is because you think more highly than you ought to of yourself. Free-will had nothing to do with it. When the temptation comes, God has provided a way of escape; you must choose: Fall into Temptation, or Submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Once again, you demonstrate why you reject the knowledge of free-will, because you are hurt in life. You fear the discipline of God when you be proudful. Stop building your belief on emotionalism, and emotional appeals. That is the life built on the sand. Emotion is the weakest and most faulty of reasoning to believe anything.
Hebrews 12:4-8In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Stop living a hednostic lifestyle, and start living for God. Peace and Joy are his, and all you have to do is choose to live for God.
Free-will does not mean self-determinationalism.
Quote from: SOtW on February 10, 2008, 08:14:53 AM
QuoteCraig, I tend to think you fear lacking free will because it would mean that things would be beyond your control.
Actually it is not. It is opposite actually. Those who are scared of their own actions and cannot bear the responsibility and accountability of their actions are the ones who are in fear. Period. There is nothing I have presented to ever indicate my belief comes from fear; however, quoting you, I know where you belief comes from.
You said December 13,2007
Quotepersonally tend to incline to agree with the absolute Sovereignty of God as of late. Otherwise, I would be responsible for my own actions, and I personally HATE responsibility myself.
See. You can't pull fast ones on me. I am very precise in what I believe and nothing is based on emotionalism nor emotional appeals.
There is no definition of free-will which says I have control over anything I cannot control. That is your definition of free-will, you think free-will means that you must be all powerful, all knowing, and have control. So now you should know it is not true.
QuoteYou, and everyone else, including myself, have a natural tendancy to want to be in control.
Actually I don't. I trust in the Lord almost entirely for my life. Where ever God leads me, I am sent and I do not know what the future has in store, but I have no fear. Those who want to control everything, are in fear of losing something. I have nothing to lose, my life was lost many years ago. What I dislike is when people make up lies about me to justify their belief system. That is called an Ad Homimem attack, and used as a strawman to justify their position. There is no fact to any accusation you have made. My need for control, is not there; it is a perception you have, not a reality of who I am.
QuoteFurthermore, if we continue to adamantly insist on our free will, then when it comes time for the reckoning, we will find that we will severely fall short of what was expected of us, and then we can only blame ourselves.
Now you are getting it, that is the ENTIRE PURPOSE. Your inability to blame yourself, and acknowlege your actions, however, has led you to down a path of destruction. I have no fear of hating myself, I have no fear of knowing what I did has affected someone adversely. These things I do not fear, because everyone has control of their actions and reactions and if I did something to cause someone pain, inadvertantly, God knows my intentions and my heart and He is always faithful to forgive. So we are back only one you can blame for your sins, is yourself. So repent and confess your sins, recieve your discipline and choose the Life. He has already forgiven you, now you need to forgive yourself.
QuoteLike I said, free will is a curse, unless perhaps you are infallible
Free-will is a tool. It is the tongue which steers ships, and a spark that can cause forest fires. The need to polarize things as good and evil in all terms, is a failure to understand the neutrality of creation.
QuoteAnytime that I had walked with a free will mindset, it always spelled disaster.
That is because you do not know the difference between what is good and what is evil. That is because you fail to recognize that you must submit to God, and resist the devil so that he may flee from you; you need to not give the devil a foothold in your life. You think that doing good gives you favors? No, you were created to do good works, it is expected of you as that is your purpose. You think that doing evil will gain you an advantage? Do not be misled, God cannot be mocked; whatever you sow you shall reap.
No, free-will is not the problem. It is what you do and say, which is the problem. From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. That is why we must have accept the new heart, we must repent of our sin, and continually wash our minds by the Word of God. Continually live in Love, submit to God in all things.
QuoteI personally hate pride. It gets hurt too damn easily, and I don't like getting hurt. I have gone through life always getting hurt, and it was all because of pride, brought on by free will.
Not at all, pride is because you think more highly than you ought to of yourself. Free-will had nothing to do with it. When the temptation comes, God has provided a way of escape; you must choose: Fall into Temptation, or Submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Once again, you demonstrate why you reject the knowledge of free-will, because you are hurt in life. You fear the discipline of God when you be proudful. Stop building your belief on emotionalism, and emotional appeals. That is the life built on the sand. Emotion is the weakest and most faulty of reasoning to believe anything.
Hebrews 12:4-8
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Stop living a hednostic lifestyle, and start living for God. Peace and Joy are his, and all you have to do is choose to live for God.
Free-will does not mean self-determinationalism.
Craig,
You really can't say anything about me unless you have walked a mile in my shoes. And the truth of the matter is, you haven't. I have shared many things with you privately about my life's history, and I see you still don't quite get it.
You are no doubt contradicting yourself in your last post.
I personally don't see any point in arguing with you because we have been through this before. Like I said, you have a long life ahead of you, and I say you are most likely not prepared for it. But if you are walking in faith like you say you are, then you shouldn't dread it.
Perhaps my faith is not your faith, which is fine. I'm libertarian while you perhaps are conservative. Whatever. I think governments are from hell. You probably think they can work. You think good of your boss, while I think bosses are bosses because they sell their soul to Satan. You (probably) think your prime minister is a Godsend, while I think our president is in league with the devil.
You and I have different callings. Everything I have said, God wanted me to say. You are free to disagree. Doesn't mean you are right, neither does it mean you are wrong. I've done nothing but God's will the whole time. I am in a position to make the same claim Jesus made when he says "I always do my Father's will". If you bereate me for that, then remember, the Pharisees bereated Jesus for making the same claim.
I could show you a white ball, with a black star on one side, and a red diamond on the other. I can show you the side with the red diamond, and ask, "What is the mark on this ball?" You say "A red diamond", to which I respond: "No, it's a black star". We both are looking at the same ball, but we don't see the same mark. We could argue ad nauseum about the mark on the ball. Get the picture?
I think one thing good about Tentmaker is that they don't have any creeds. If they did, one of us would no doubt be ex-communicated for our stand, and I hardly think it would be me. I know, I know, you think the same way. :wink2:
You say I don't know the difference between good and evil? I take that as a compliment, because God doesn't want me to have that knowledge. You on the other have do have that knowledge because you ate off of that forbidden tree! And when you see your nakedness, you are indeed ashamed.
Incidently, you refer to December 13, 2007. What about that date? What's that go to do with what we a talking about now?
Chuck
Hello Chuck,
Obviously you have a lot of issues need to sort out, and a lot of hurt which needs to be dealt with. I am not empathetic to anyone's hurts if they are teaching things that cause more pain and crisis for others. As Jesus said, do not cause little ones to sin, and the one who does is better off to have a millstone around his neck and thrown to the depths of the sea and drown. Perhaps you consider his words too harsh as well? Well, I am with the same mind; anyone who teaches a gospel that is not a gospel at all (It is not a gospel to believe you are not in control of your actions, because then we must conclude that God is an evil God, because it is He who works the evil through you) will be challenged and refuted.
So now bear in mind this refute. If you do not recieve it in the manner it is intended, it is because you will have choosen (yes you choose) to take offense to it. I have a clear conscience as I reprove you.
You wrote:
QuoteYou really can't say anything about me unless you have walked a mile in my shoes
I do not have to, Chuck. There is nothing new is under the sun. We all have lives and experiences, and in this way
you are not special in any way concidering these circumstances, the circumstances are yours but even Scripture says,
1 Corinthians 10:13No temptation has seized you
except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
You have are using a selfish elitist fallacy, that only you know what you are talking about and nobody else does. This mystisicm, is of not understanding and accusing others of never understanding since they are not you is a common tactic used by those who still have too much pride in themselves to realize that we are very much the same, regardless of the circumstannce. Your experiences are different, but everyone understands how life works, and everyone has an experience which is simular, or parrelles your own.
QuoteYou are no doubt contradicting yourself in your last post.
Chuck, in order to make this accusation, you must in fact point out the contridiction. So I say to you confidently, I have not contradicted myself at all. Even alluding that I contridict myself means you need to demonstrate and prove that I have and you have not, I also have not. I am innocent concerning your accusation.
Next.
QuotePerhaps my faith is not your faith, which is fine. I'm libertarian while you perhaps are conservative. Whatever. I think governments are from hell. You probably think they can work. You think good of your boss, while I think bosses are bosses because they sell their soul to Satan. You (probably) think your prime minister is a Godsend, while I think our president is in league with the devil.
Another fallacy, but this time more direct argumentum Ad Hominem. This is common among those who still can't figure out that they have no substance to their position and their arguments. It is effectively a strawman argument, an argument against the 'man', rather than demonstrating and proving the position they must be presented on it's own merits and not in comparison with the person who disagrees. You commit the classic fallacy, and thus defeating your own argument since his argument and position has no merit to begin with. It is quite facinating how it always concludes this way.
QuoteYou and I have different callings. Everything I have said, God wanted me to say. You are free to disagree. Doesn't mean you are right, neither does it mean you are wrong. I've done nothing but God's will the whole time. I am in a position to make the same claim Jesus made when he says "I always do my Father's will". If you bereate me for that, then remember, the Pharisees bereated Jesus for making the same claim.
Now, Chuck, this has nothing to do with free-will or sovereignty, or anything of our conversation for that matter. As you see, Chuck, and hopefully those who are lurking, you have now fully embraced you strawman argument; the argumentum ad hominem which you were trying to sidetrack the issue which was originally being discussed.
You have also made the error of extremism. You have made it also an argument of right and wrong, believing that this is the problem. If you do not believe there is a right or wrong, then your discussion is fruitless, as your point will mean nothing. If you do believe you are right, then you are a hypocrit, as you just said it was 'I' who made it this issue. As with most people, this common error of 'all or nothing' approach is what puts them in hot water.
QuoteI could show you a white ball, with a black star on one side, and a red diamond on the other. I can show you the side with the red diamond, and ask, "What is the mark on this ball?" You say "A red diamond", to which I respond: "No, it's a black star". We both are looking at the same ball, but we don't see the same mark. We could argue ad nauseum about the mark on the ball. Get the picture?
Now you are saying objective truth, is only subjective to our perceptions. A very nice truism, however this has nothing to do with the subject matter; it is once again based on your previous strawman argument in which only you understand what you are talking about, that your experiences are somewhat unique in this life we live, that none have suffered pain, hurt and sorrow as you, or done evil openly. To the degree, it matters not, but we all have been in your shoes in some form and another. The only conclusion we can make since you use this reasoning, is you admit you do not know even the subject matter we are discussing, and as I pointed out earlier, unable to have your position or arugment expressed on it's own merits. This is why you made a strawman argument of 'perception'. The context does not have anything to do with our discussion.
QuoteYou say I don't know the difference between good and evil? I take that as a compliment, because God doesn't want me to have that knowledge. You on the other have do have that knowledge because you ate off of that forbidden tree! And when you see your nakedness, you are indeed ashamed.
More strawman argument. One though I can refute. .
Hebrews 5:14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
3 John 1:11Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.
Isaiah 5:20Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
2 Samuel 14:17"And now your servant says, 'May the word of my lord the king bring me rest, for my lord the king is like an angel of God in discerning good and evil. May the LORD your God be with you.' "
Next, ANOTHER Ad Hominem attack, accusing me of evil, and saying that I must be ashamed. The fact is, from the abundant of the heart, the mouth speaks. The fact is, in almost all cases a person speaks from the own position, when making these types of accusations, as this has nothing to do with the conversation, these are just plain insults. Such fallacy must be deeply imbred in you, that you are now in denial, and unaware that you are unable to understand that disobedience was the evil, it was not eating of the tree of knowledge. Such simplicity of disobedience will not be accepted by you, since you do not believe we had a choice in the matter to begin with.
Next you says I am ashamed. I can say with clear conscience, I am not ashamed of anything, especially since I am in Christ.
1 Peter 3:15-17 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
I am not ashamed. Romans 8:1-2Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
I know the law of sin and death, that is how I know what sin is. I am conscious of what is good and what is evil, that is how I know I am free through Christ Jesus an the law of the Spirit.
Romans 10:11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
It is in fact those who do not know anything, who perish. Those who do not know what evil is, who continue to do it. Ignorance is not bliss, ignorance is death.
1 Corinthians 15:33-35 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
Job 36:12But if they do not listen, they will perish by the sword and die without knowledge.
Proverbs 29:18Where there is no vision [no redemptive revelation of God], the people perish; but he who keeps the law [of God, which includes that of man]--blessed (happy, fortunate, and enviable) is he.
Hosea 4:6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.
Proverbs 19:2It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way.
Romans 10:2-4For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.
Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Chuck, there is numerous strawman arguments now, you now even boast in your ignorance to good and evil, The fact is, without knowledge, man seeks to establish their own righteousness, not submitting to God.
Romans 11: 17-21If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.QuoteIncidently, you refer to December 13, 2007. What about that date? What's that go to do with what we a talking about now?
Chuck, it has everything to do with it. You don't believe you have free-will because you said if you did, you would hate yourself. The reason is not based on truth, the reason is based on you, and your perception. That is why it is flawed.
Take what you like, but you have not established your position, nor concluded on any sureness of a sound argument or opinion to even disagree with my position. I mean no ill towards you, but it is obvious you mean ill towards me, otherwise you would not have taken the route that you did.
Craig
Craig,
Have a wonderful life :smile:
Chuck
Quote from: ChuckK3 on February 11, 2008, 05:37:53 AM
Craig,
Have a wonderful life :smile:
Chuck
You to, thanks.
Craig,
Just one question: Do you expect to see me in the Kingdom, yes or no?
Chuck
Yes. You are already in the Kingdom.
Don't misunderstand or mistake free-will for self-determinationism. We are all pre-destined to Life, we are all Children of God, even the people who were not His People He has called Sons of the Living God.
Quote from: SOtW on February 12, 2008, 12:27:42 AM
Yes. You are already in the Kingdom.
Don't misunderstand or mistake free-will for self-determinationism. We are all pre-destined to Life, we are all Children of God, even the people who were not His People He has called Sons of the Living God.
Thank you Craig.
I guess one thing you and I can agree upon, and that is we disagree a lot. :smile:
No hard feelings brother :friendstu:
Chuck
I think that the works- law oriented churchianity we see today makes people phony because it is Man's religion not God's truth. I never felt comfortable in those circles because it did seem everyone was trying to act like or come across as if they were Jesus. I think they take the verse to put on Christ too literally and it comes across as a put on or an act. Keep in mind they also live for the approval of others in evangelical circles it is important to be seen as Godly and very dedicated in performing all the right religious practices. Looking back I don't see Christians acting any kinder or more loving than non-Christians. Yet thats what it comes down to: how do you treat others?? I don't think you have to be a free will believer to be plastic. The churches I'm referring to were Calvinistic. So its not the free will issue that causes the phoniness it is the whole culture of law and works mixed with pride. In other words Pharisee ism. There is no freedom in religion of any kind. Only truth makes you free and the truth of Christ is his love for all.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2008, 01:55:37 PM
Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
There are plenty other verses in the Bible that state that we may plan things but whether we actually do them or not is up to God's will and intention.
We may be free in a certain sense to plan, but not free to carry out those plans.
Tony N.
This answer that Tony gave is probably close to the top of the list of the most balanced views that I've ever seen of this subject. On the other hand, since I'm someone who earlier in my life had more in common with the Gadarene demoniac than probably anybody else here, I'm probably in one of the best positions to say that the Bible doesn't speak of plastic people. It calls us clay. We're the clay, He's the potter. We obey when His Spirit empowers us. We disobey when we're virtually on our own with regards to the particular issue where we're being disobedient. Some would say "then where's the accountability if disobedience is the absence of His Spirit at work in your life?" St. Paul said "but who are you to argue with the potter, saying, 'What did you do that for? Why have you made that, or me like this??' Hath the potter no power over the clay to make of one lump this and of another lump that, so that no flesh should glory in His sight and all the world may be held accountable to God?" Accountability in the book of Romans seems to mean that you're on the potter's wheel and not that your eternal soul is up for grabs by either an eternal devil's hell, or a temporary duration of a future devil's hell :Sparkletooth:
Charles Chauncy said in "Mystery Hid From Ages and Generations" something to the effect that the potter pulls you out of the flames. And when you're not quite ready or suited to His purpose, then He simply puts you back into the fire over and over and over again until He gets what He wants and expects of you. There isn't space and time to lay out what led to that conclusion in his book, but again the point being that "what He expects of you" is really what He expects when He's finished with your life and has made of it what He's wanted all along.
Sometimes you're broken, sometimes you gather dust, and sometimes your life seems to go on the shelf for a menial task, but when He wants you for a noble purpose, He knows how to put the shine on you or to put you back into the fire until you either regain your firmness or your shape. Perhaps His call to service and obedience, or our perception of that, is occasionally nothing more than analogous to the Mosaic Law where what's within you of flaws will come to the surface so that He can wipe them away on His potter's wheel. Perhaps the point wasn't to show you how obedient that you were capable of being or to allow you to boast of not having disobeyed the Lord in 29 years, but for Him to have pleasure in the work of His Hands and so that all of Creation would laud the glory of His grace in Christ Jesus.
Ed Young Sr. pastors a Church in Houston, Texas, if I remember correctly. Anyway, he was preaching on the Church Channel a few nights ago on John chapter 15 about the passage where Christ is the vine and we're the branches and that every branch that bares fruit He prunes so that it'll bring forth more fruit. I guess there's something in the KJV about any branch not baring the appropriate amount of fruit being taken away and burned, but Ed said that in the Greek we're actually to understand rather than a cutting away
more of the idea of a lifting up so that the branch can get more sunlight. It's the tenderness of someone tending a vine rather than something destructive on the part of an invader. It's apparently a nurturing of the branch in the particular Greek manuscripts that the KJV translators appeal to rather than a "let's see who we're going to throw into Hell today!!" I wish I'd heard that sermon when I was a little kid. If I'd had the extra money right now, I'd of bought a copy of that message and had it sent to TBN's founding president, Paul Crouch Sr. 'cause with his Assemblies of God background, he's still totally scared to death of that passage. He's recently read it on TBN with a note of sobriety in his voice and torment in his eyes. And he probably wouldn't hear the same thing preached by Carlton Pearson if Carlton's ever touched upon that passage. Ed Young Sr. blessed my socks off, as the old saying goes. He then got to talking about one of the stories in the Chronicles of Narnia series where Aslan is redemptively pulling the scales off of the dragon to make him better again. If it hadn't been just a 30 minute program, I was teetering on a good cry over the Holy Spirit at work in people who have absolutely no idea why they're being led to say certain things.
Don't give up entirely on the mainstream Church 'cause Christ is still the potter.
An interesting thought came to mind about free will. In Catholic Doctrine, they believe that Mary was given a special grace that she would be born without orignal sin. However tradition says that Mary never sinned once because of this grace, and was taken body and soul into heaven. Interesting thing is how can the church teach absolute free will if they believe the only reason Mary did not sin was because she was born without a sinful nature, whilst everyone else was? Just some thought.
Is this tradition in the Word of God?
Yes, it is tradition, and a contradictive tradition. I was just pointing out the contradiction in Church teaching on Free Will.
I like churches that teach free will. Imagine ones that don't :laughing7:
Give me your tithes now :Evilgrin:
What's Mary got to do with free choice though :dontknow:
In my book Mary was cleaner than the average woman by far, but completely sinless, I doubt it.
even though the bloodline was carefully cleansed and selected for centuries.
I'm letting this thread go for now because so far it's pretty "benign", i.e., no arguing over the banned topic of "free will" [as of yet :happygrin:]. Good job so far... :bigGrin:
It was apparently started in '07 when people were still allowed to throw plates of food at each other. :laughing7:
Quote from: thinktank on August 11, 2010, 07:24:39 PM
I like churches that teach free will. Imagine ones that don't :laughing7:
Give me your tithes now :Evilgrin:
:mlaugh: That is funny!