Place of resurrection, Heaven or Earth?

[Molly]

And if I go and make ready a place for you, I will return and take you to be with me, that where I am you also may be. John 14:3

Molly, when do you believe this happens?  At the end of an age, or when one dies?  Or both?

It happens when our body dies, Jab.  "this earthly tent" is just a covering for our spirit and soul which has already crossed over from death to life.

We are done with death.

We died with Christ and are now raised and seated with him in heavenly places.  Do you think we are going to die again?

Who do you think all those 'just men made perfect' are that we can now commune with in heaven?  They are the saints, who have left their earthly tents before us.

Do you think this is just pretty talk?

He is the God of the living, not the dead. [Mk 12:27]


But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels

the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

--Heb 12:22-23

[Molly]

It's been confusing for awhile for me.  I do believe He literally returns and we rise to meet Him.

We who are living when he returns rise to meet him.

But, who is he returning with?  The saints!

The dead in Christ are given their glorified bodies first.

[omantodd2000]

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words..  I Thes. 4:16-18


Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

..But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  I Cor. 15

All these scripts pertain to the end of the age.

But, meanwhile,  he has a place for us in heaven.

Or do we really think that Paul was longing to die so that he could spend 2000 years in the grave waiting for Christ to return?


And if I go and make ready a place for you, I will return and take you to be with me, that where I am you also may be. John 14:3


For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.  2 Cor 5

This is exactly why I am confused, I believed it was on Earth also but recently came to understand some parts of the bible better and how they pertained to the age and now I am confused about quite a few things I used to believe. Time to read it all over again with new eyes I guess.

[eaglesway]

  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1Co 15:22-23)
  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:52)
  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1Th 4:16-18)

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Mat 24:30-31)

Glory!

[jabcat]

What's confusing is the time line - when, where, how many times.

It sounds like the dead live with Christ in heaven, wherever that is.  Seems "up" somewhere, as Jesus was taken up.

Then saints return with Jesus at His return at the resurrection?  Then stay here, or go back?  That's what I mean by coming, going, coming... anyone have a good timeline of these events?

[omantodd2000]

What's confusing is the time line - when, where, how many times.

It sounds like the dead live with Christ in heaven, wherever that is.  Seems "up" somewhere, as Jesus was taken up.

Then saints return with Jesus at His return at the resurrection?  Then stay here, or go back?  That's what I mean by coming, going, coming... anyone have a good timeline of these events?

I just find it interesting as Christians and especially since we are the few believers in UR that we still have confusion about the simple things like the resurrection and either disagree about it or in my case am wondering if I ever understood it at all. Anyways it reminds me of something I read in Hebrew 6 "Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,a and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so."

[ded2daworld]

But the important thing isn't when or or what or where or how or the timeline. These things we will never know for sure. God told us these things not for the what where when how stuff, but so we will know what matters -

2 things matter. Who? - Jesus   Why? Because He loves us and is doing His plan to show
and cover us with his Love.

[micah7:9]

In my opinion, I gave a real good idea where earth is; but can someone tell me where heaven is? Everyone one seems to want to live in heaven but no one has been able to tell me where that is. For me this is where heaven is..Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. John in chap 14 does not even mention the word heaven, yet it is assumed, but he does say Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 16:16  A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
oh 16:28  I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

And a far as I can tell there is trouble with that pesky little word that is understood here on the forum, that word is all.
Zec 14:5  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

WE, MANY, ALL for me is pretty clear that "we" in I Cor. and I Thes is ALL. Of course this only my opinion. :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

yeah Micah - everybody wants to go to heaven - just not right now.
The old World Wide Church of God cult made a big deal about where heaven was.
Is the kingdom of heaven within you? Is it among you? Both?
Is the kingdom of heaven the same as just heaven?
If evil is not allowed in heaven, what was Satan doing standing before God in heaven
getting permission to mess with Job?
If heaven is "out in space" or "insidfe you" then what was Satan standing on?
The throne of God is in heaven - is it floating?
Isn't it amazing how much time we can spend basically asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? :Peace2:

[ded2daworld]

Before Jehovah Witnesses were forbidden to come to my door (not by me but by their higher ups)
They would ask if, as a Christian, I thought I was going to be "in Heaven" (They believe heaven or paradise will be on earth and Jesus (Archangel Michael) will rule from somewhere else as the earth will only be his footstool.
Answer from me was (I was ET at the time): I may be in heaven, I may be on earth, I may even be somewhere else. I DO know I will be with Jesus wherever he is and I have no desire to be anywhere without him.

[micah7:9]

Okay, I found out a little as to what the kingdom of heaven is all about, it all seems pretty clear now. Right?

Mat 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 13:24  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:31  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Mat 13:33  Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mat 13:44  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:47  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 18:23  Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 22:2  The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:14  For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

[jabcat]

I probably used the wrong phrase, "timeline".  What I really meant was sequence.  I don't think we can know a timeline.  But through the scriptures, we probably could pinpoint a sequence, what happens, then next, so on.

Here's my understanding.  Add your 2 cents if you see it differently;

Dead go to be with Christ where He is - heaven, the place of many mansions, "where I am.." - whatever you want to call it.
He returns at some point with those saints, there is the resurrection and catching up of those that are "alive and remain".
(I personally suspect that catching up may be brief, more of a joining Him, and then the work begins on earth.)
I'm not sure then about if earth remains "heaven", or if there's a final "trip to heaven" (although I don't know of any place that's in the scriptures, unless it's after the millinium, after the work of restoration is done) and I'm just not versed enough on the eschatology of it to be sure.   :dunno2: 

** Oh, I just thought of something.  Doesn't the city foursquare descend to earth at some point???  Maybe that's when earth becomes "heaven"?  Like omantodd said, interesting there's still uncertainty and differences on these things.  It seems the mainstream church has just decided "how it happens", and they stick to it -  CORRECT OR NOT!!   So maybe that's still part of our seeking - being willing to dig into these things rather than just accept the "party line".   :dunno2: :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Some say (and I believe it) that there's a kingdom of earth, and a kingdom of heaven - that one has to do with living in His righteousness, peace, joy - in close relationship with Him.  While the other is "where I am you will be also", "the city built foursquare", etc.

[ded2daworld]

It seems if there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth and a new Jerusalem on the earth that MAYBE
a new heaven simply means sky and outerspace, since there will be no more sun, moon or stars as we know them.
Present matter all being rolled up like a scroll. :dontknow:

[seekfirst]

I probably used the wrong phrase, "timeline".  What I really meant was sequence.  I don't think we can know a timeline.  But through the scriptures, we probably could pinpoint a sequence, what happens, then next, so on.

Here's my understanding.  Add your 2 cents if you see it differently;

Dead go to be with Christ where He is - heaven, the place of many mansions, "where I am.." - whatever you want to call it.
He returns at some point with those saints, there is the resurrection and catching up of those that are "alive and remain".
I personally believe that catching up is brief, more of a joining Him, and then the work begins on earth.
I'm not sure then about if earth remains "heaven", or if there's a final "trip to heaven" (although I don't know of any place that's in the scriptures, unless it's after the millinium and I'm just not versed enough on the eschatology of it to be sure.   :dunno2:

Sequence?  Interesting!  I was just checking out the appearances of Jesus after His resurrection and wondered if the "sequence" of the appearances as well as the words spoken by Jesus at each appearance might give us some "light"...I noted with great interest that His first appearance was to Mary Magdalene (john 20:14) to whom He said "do not touch me, ...I have not yet ascended to my Father...  (I'm not familiar enough with the whole Lev touch not unclean, but there might be some connection???)
and His last appearance was to the Apostles (Acts 1:1-10) immediately before His ascension

the appearances in between, of course, are very interesting--  to Thomas (John 20:27) He said "touch my ...)

and so much more... it seems He appeared only to His brethren  and during the forty days between His resurrection and ascension...

My interest in this whole topic of what and where is heaven comes from having to change a very strong opinion about the need for a physical heaven to accommodate a physically resurrected Jesus... now I don't have any opinion...just a few more Scriptures to study...

[omantodd2000]

I probably used the wrong phrase, "timeline".  What I really meant was sequence.  I don't think we can know a timeline.  But through the scriptures, we probably could pinpoint a sequence, what happens, then next, so on.

Here's my understanding.  Add your 2 cents if you see it differently;

Dead go to be with Christ where He is - heaven, the place of many mansions, "where I am.." - whatever you want to call it.
He returns at some point with those saints, there is the resurrection and catching up of those that are "alive and remain".
(I personally suspect that catching up may be brief, more of a joining Him, and then the work begins on earth.)
I'm not sure then about if earth remains "heaven", or if there's a final "trip to heaven" (although I don't know of any place that's in the scriptures, unless it's after the millinium (after the work of restoration is done) and I'm just not versed enough on the eschatology of it to be sure.   :dunno2: 

** Oh, I just thought of something.  Doesn't the city foursquare descend to earth at some point???  Maybe that's when earth becomes "heaven"?  Like omantodd said, interesting there's still uncertainty and differences on these things.  It seems the mainstream church has just decided "how it happens", and they stick to it -  CORRECT OR NOT!!   So maybe that's still part of our seeking - being willing to dig into these things rather than just accept the "party line".   :dunno2: :dontknow:

Yup the problems come when you start to look into things in the bible, it's much easier to just let the mainstream church do your thinking for you, ignorance is bliss as they say.  Every time I think I actually sorta get the whole picture about scripture I read something new and realize something I thought before might be completely incorrect. In a way this just strengthens my faith though because only God could have made a book this complex and often times confusing that requires so much study to get the real meanings behind things. 

I wish I could contribute an opinion to this but I really have no idea at this point. What I used to believe was that all the dead are simply dead in the Earth and know nothing.  At Christ's return all the saints would be raised and rule with Christ on Earth for 1000 Years after that the completion would come and all the other dead would be raised. The complete resurrection would be here on Earth and had nothing to do with anyone actually going to heaven. At this point I am pretty sure some of this, if not all is incorrect.

[omantodd2000]

It seems if there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth and a new Jerusalem on the earth that MAYBE
a new heaven simply means sky and outerspace, since there will be no more sun, moon or stars as we know them.
Present matter all being rolled up like a scroll. :dontknow:

I know the jews believed in levels of heaven, like when Paul said he knew a man that was caught up to the 3rd level of Heaven. Also heaven means high places and often times is referring to positions of power. This is why it is so confusing, everything has complex jewish meanings from thousands of years ago and also symbolic meanings in certain places.  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

seekfirst, omantodd,

Good exploring.   :thumbsup:  Happy hunting!  :bigGrin:

[scarletwren]

Hi,

Some of you know me from another forum.  I rejoined here recently but haven't made any replies.

Many use Phillipians 1:22-23 to defend our conscious presence with God at death. 

Here is a MOST interesting alternative understanding from http://www.harvestherald.com/mbls/chapter_five.htm:

***
Returning now to our text:

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

What we are actually seeing here, are not two options which Paul is considering (life and death), but three (life, death, and resurrection), although this is hidden in our English translation. Because most Bible translations are done by those who teach that man has an immortal soul, this belief will of necessity color their translation of a text. But let's examine the Greek text of this verse more closely:

Sunechomai de ek toon duo Teen epithumian echoon

I am pressed for between the two a longing having

eis to analusai kai sun Christoo einai polloo gar

for the return and with Christ to be much indeed

mallon kreisson

more better

This of course gives a much different meaning than 'to depart and be with Christ'. The main difference is in the clause eis to analusai. The word analusai, only occurs one other time in the New Testament.

Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return (Gk. analusai) from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Luke 12:34-35

This of course is in reference to Christ's second advent; the same event that Paul wrote elsewhere that he greatly longed for.

In Greek literature, analusai can be used as either 'depart', or 'return'. So what decides how it should be translated in Philippians 1:23? Simple; the bias of the translator. There is no good reason why Paul could not have said that his great longing was for the return of Christ as opposed to his own death. The reader should note in the Greek text above that the definite article 'the' appears before analusai, which points to a defined specific event; THE return. The reader will also notice that the definite article does not appear in our English translations. The bias of our translators has obviously affected how they have translated this verse because they already assumed that man has an immortal soul which can depart at death.

***

When I was younger I would be greatly distressed at someone saying we weren't conscious and with God at the moment of our physical death.  But now, I am confident that I can trust Him to raise me at the right time and finish what He has begun in me.

Praise our Father and His son.  Bless everyone today.

[micah7:9]

Well, I'm still wondering about the location of heaven, this is the best I can do.
Heaven(s) H8064  shâmayim  shâmeh    from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air

Heaven G3772  ouranos   (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

[ded2daworld]

Seekfirst, Oman,
Would that we all had the attitude of exploring you 2 have shown.
Seekfirst said, "now I don't have any opinion...just a few more Scriptures to study..."
Oman said, "I know the jews believed in levels of heaven, like when Paul said he knew a man that was caught up to the 3rd level of Heaven. Also heaven means high places and often times is referring to positions of power. This is why it is so confusing, everything has complex jewish meanings from thousands of years ago and also symbolic meanings in certain places."
This could be wrong but A hebrew scholar once told me(if I remember correctly) that the 1st heaven is the earth, the second heaven is the sky or atmosphere, and the third heaven is what's beyond that or "out of this world"
I have no idea what the 7th heaven is supposed to be.

[micah7:9]

Hi,

Some of you know me from another forum.  I rejoined here recently but haven't made any replies.

Many use Phillipians 1:22-23 to defend our conscious presence with God at death. 

Here is a MOST interesting alternative understanding from http://www.harvestherald.com/mbls/chapter_five.htm:

***
Returning now to our text:

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

What we are actually seeing here, are not two options which Paul is considering (life and death), but three (life, death, and resurrection), although this is hidden in our English translation. Because most Bible translations are done by those who teach that man has an immortal soul, this belief will of necessity color their translation of a text. But let's examine the Greek text of this verse more closely:

Sunechomai de ek toon duo Teen epithumian echoon

I am pressed for between the two a longing having

eis to analusai kai sun Christoo einai polloo gar

for the return and with Christ to be much indeed

mallon kreisson

more better

This of course gives a much different meaning than 'to depart and be with Christ'. The main difference is in the clause eis to analusai. The word analusai, only occurs one other time in the New Testament.

Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return (Gk. analusai) from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Luke 12:34-35

This of course is in reference to Christ's second advent; the same event that Paul wrote elsewhere that he greatly longed for.

In Greek literature, analusai can be used as either 'depart', or 'return'. So what decides how it should be translated in Philippians 1:23? Simple; the bias of the translator. There is no good reason why Paul could not have said that his great longing was for the return of Christ as opposed to his own death. The reader should note in the Greek text above that the definite article 'the' appears before analusai, which points to a defined specific event; THE return. The reader will also notice that the definite article does not appear in our English translations. The bias of our translators has obviously affected how they have translated this verse because they already assumed that man has an immortal soul which can depart at death.

***

When I was younger I would be greatly distressed at someone saying we weren't conscious and with God at the moment of our physical death.  But now, I am confident that I can trust Him to raise me at the right time and finish what He has begun in me.

Praise our Father and His son.  Bless everyone today.

:dsunny:

[jabcat]

Understandings of this?

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.. he who believes in Me shall never die.  Do you believe this?"

[Molly]

A man who doesn't kinow what is going to happen when he dies and calls himself a coward because he is afraid to die:


To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of time,
The Oppressor's wrong, the proud man's Contumely,
The pangs of despised Love, the Law's delay,
The insolence of Office, and the Spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his Quietus make
With a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered Country, from whose bourn
No Traveller returns, Puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not of.
Thus Conscience does make Cowards of us all,
And thus the Native hue of Resolution
Is sicklied o'er, with the pale cast of Thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment,
With this regard their Currents turn awry,
And lose the name of Action. Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia? Nymph, in thy Orisons
Be all my sins remembered.



Versus



A man who does know what will happen when he dies and says he is bold and confident and even longing for death.



20 For I fully expect and hope that I will never be ashamed, but that I will continue to be bold for Christ, as I have been in the past. And I trust that my life will bring honor to Christ, whether I live or die. 21 For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better.

22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better. 23 I'm torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. 24 But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.

25 Knowing this, I am convinced that I will remain alive so I can continue to help all of you grow and experience the joy of your faith. 26 And when I come to you again, you will have even more reason to take pride in Christ Jesus because of what he is doing through me.

--Phil 1



Paul says he is torn between two [duo] choices, to live or to die.  I don't see any third choice there.  One choice is to depart this life and be with Christ.  One choice is to stay alive in the flesh and be with his churches.   He decides that for himself it would be better to die and be with Christ but for their sakes it would be better if he stay alive so he can continue to teach them.



This is not the only time that Paul says that to leave the body [die] is to be with Christ.



6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

[eaglesway]

Well, we know where this discussion usually leads :o)

Since Jesus says that the one who believes in Him has passed from death unto life, I believe that. Since Paul says that the dead in Christ are asleep in some places and "with the Lord" in others, there is a dichotomy- a perpendicular paradigm so to speak LOLOL

Personally, I think there are always two views of time and eternity. One from this mortal plain. One from the "olam" persective.

In this time frame I think the dead in Christ are asleep- yet, it is a sleep in which no one is conscious of time so, I believe that everyone awakens in the same "Day of the Lord", seemingly the instant after they fell asleep.

But then, the writer of Hebrews says we are come unto Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, to Myriads of angels and the "spirits of righteous men made perfect"- so, if you look strictly from within the time conscious view- they are absent from the body and present with the Lord

But then, Paul said he made no claim, as yet, to having apprehended the "out- resurrection of the dead"(ex-anastasis), which he was determined to "press on towards" as the "mark of the prize of the upward call of God". I think that is what all of the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" were rewarded with as overcomers, and why Moses and Elijah and some others who surround the throne of God while awaiting "the rest of their number" are- wave offering, first fruits saints.

Ex-anastasis is only used on THIS ONE OCCASION BY PAUL in all the scripture, and I think an excellent explanation of this is located here.......

www.bibleone.net/BF15.htm