I agree with the general premise of universal reconciliation insofar as none of us is eternally punished and that eventually, we are all reconciled with our Creator, but I go beyond that, as follows, and am interested in your opinion:
1. THE BIBLE: Even if we acknowledge that the Bible does not teach about eternal damnation, there are still, MANY, MANY statements that to me, are inconsistent with an all-knowing, all-loving God. God is portrayed as angry, jealous, petty, insecure, arbitrary, and possessing a host of other characteristics generally attributed to flawed mortals.
Why, then, are we so concerned with pointing out that "the Bible supports Universal Reconciliation?" Shouldn't our first step be to determine why we follow the Bible's teachings as authoritative at all?
Some have said that the Bible should be looked upon as a library - full of many, many ideas, both accurate and inaccurate - rather than a Constitution, to be taken as a Manual of Life.
2. PUNISHMENT: There seems to be an implication that, although God does not punish eternally, He does punish temporarily. I think "punishment" is the wrong word and concept here. Punishment is a human consequence that is an IMPERFECT solution to a problem. Imperfect, but the best humans can come up with at this point. Just like war is often an imperfect solution, because we humans sometimes do not have the means to think or act upon a better solution.
For instance, most folks feel justified in the U.S.' entry into World War II, but if we had the power to turn Hitler and Hirohito into bunny rabbits, and caused their weapons to shoot marshmallows and flowers instead of bullets and bombs, then we could have stopped them without firing a shot - without killing a single innocent civilian, or young (German or Japanese) soldier caught up in a flawed national ideology.
Accordingly, I don't think God "punishes" us in the afterlife for our "sins," and then we are ultimately reconciled with our "Savior." Rather, I think that we humans commit "error," and that we are ALWAYS in our Creator's good graces, but he gives us the "guidance" in the next life to learn - to achieve a higher plane and no longer be inclined to commit the "errors" that some call "sins."
After all, would God really place someone in a pit of fire "temporarily?" Even under our own form of government, that would be considered "cruel and unusual punishment." As great as our Founding Fathers were, I doubt they were more compassionate than God.
I think you are right about punishment.
Jesus always used: Kolasis punishment (corrective/restorative)
Opposed to timora punishment. (retributive punishment/vengence)
Quote from: deances
Accordingly, I don't think God "punishes" us in the afterlife for our "sins," and then we are ultimately reconciled with our "Savior." Rather, I think that we humans commit "error," and that we are ALWAYS in our Creator's good graces, but he gives us the "guidance" in the next life to learn - to achieve a higher plane and no longer be inclined to commit the "errors" that some call "sins."
After all, would God really place someone in a pit of fire "temporarily?" Even under our own form of government, that would be considered "cruel and unusual punishment." As great as our Founding Fathers were, I doubt they were more compassionate than God.
Just my belief but I think it is this life is where we are learning, maybe the next life will show us just to what extent we have learned. We will know as we are known.
I don't think God will place us in a literal pit of fire for any duration. The fire is a spiritual fire, or spiritual experience I should say.
CHB
Yes I also agree with you about punishment.
The Bible is not an easy book to understand and there is sometimes much lost (and added) in translation, but with the guidance of the Holy Spirit it is the written Word of God. When it comes to God's jealousy you have to realize that He is jealous FOR us, not of us, and that for our own good!
Have you never had scripture come to mind at a particular moment and know that it was God speaking to you?
By the way, welcome to the boards. :)
Thanks, everyone, for welcoming me to the boards, and it's great to read your responses. A couple of follow-up points:
I agree with the points regarding corrective "punishment," and so perhaps "punishment" is not the best translation - maybe it should be "rehabilitation."
Perhaps, then, "jealous" is not the right word either, to describe God's feelings for us. Maybe "protective" is a better word.
Yes, the Bible did make me feel good when I'd read it, but for most of my life I didn't actually read it - rather, I read books that quoted (accurately) from it, but quoted a lot of the "feelgood" passages from it. When I recently read it, a little over a year ago, from cover to cover, taking exhaustive notes (a five-month process), it seemed more like a message trying to exploit human fear: "Believe in me, or else! Do as I say, or else! If you're on my good side, you'll be rewarded, but if you're on my bad side, incur my wrath!"
And, as I absolutely do not believe that God would operate that way, my own conclusion is that either 1) those statements are flat-out false; or 2) I am not interpreting them correctly.
The problem, for me, with statement two, that I am not interpreting it correctly, is that there is simply SO MUCH in the Bible that I find troublesome or unnecessary (maybe 98% of it), that it is hard for me to understand how I can possibly misinterpret that much.
Here's an example: let's say a person from a foreign country writes a letter to you, and before his/her signature writes the salutation: "I LOATHE YOU."
In reading the entire letter, which includes affectionate passages such as: "you are my dear friend," "I can't wait to see you again," "you warm my heart," "my life is complete with you in it," etc., you conclude that the person MISTAKENLY wrote the word "LOATHE," really having meant to write "LOVE."
If, however, the majority of the letter contained statements like: "you disgust me," "I wish I had never met you," "you make me sick to my stomach," and "I curse the day you entered my life," then it would seem more likely that "I LOATHE YOU" would be consistent with those sentiments.
Unfortunately, that's how I see the Bible. A scarce few feelgood passages drowning in a sea of hateful, vengeful, exploitative demagoguery That's why, while I remain open-minded for someone to show me where I am going wrong in my assessment.
And, by the way, despite all of this, my faith in an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving God remains unshaken. I have a strong faith in God DESPITE the Bible, not BECAUSE of it.
I look forward to more dialogue :-)
Welcome.
Quote from: lomarah on January 03, 2012, 08:05:23 PM
Yes I also agree with you about punishment.
The Bible is not an easy book to understand and there is sometimes much lost (and added) in translation, but with the guidance of the Holy Spirit it is the written Word of God.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 07:54:28 PM
We will know as we are known.
I don't think God will place us in a literal pit of fire for any duration. The fire is a spiritual fire, or spiritual experience I should say.
CHB
Amen.
Quote from: deances on January 03, 2012, 09:59:41 PM
Thanks, everyone, for welcoming me to the boards, and it's great to read your responses. A couple of follow-up points:
I agree with the points regarding corrective "punishment," and so perhaps "punishment" is not the best translation - maybe it should be "rehabilitation."
or 2) I am not interpreting them correctly.
We've been conditioned to read the scriptures and interpret them through the lens of 1500 years of darkness, foisted upon us by orthodoxy with its vile pagan influences - including the unregenerated hearts and minds of much of the "powers of the 'church' " through the Dark Ages. Translations, interpretations, our own [even unknown and unnoticed] biases and distortions - all lead to our seeing God in a different way than Who He really Is. I've heard Nathan say, and I think it's very much worth considering, that all scripture should be read through the view of Love...God IS love. Love may discipline. And an Immense Love such as God, Who is in summary, above our human understanding [For who can know the LORD's thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice? Rm. 11:34], may do things that through our veiled human eyes, may not make sense, seem like love, even seem "wrong". But to come to the place of being shown that God will have all men be saved, that
the end of the Lord truly is mercy, that everything He does is for good whether we can grasp it
right now or not - and then to walk humbly before our God, trust Him that it's in Him we live, breathe, and have our being - is truly a blessing.
All scripture is God-breathed. It's us who see through a glass darkly, and have our own varying levels of being veiled.
Believe me, I STRUGGLE with this (and have no right to, as God has blessed me day after day with all His mercies), but we can cling to this; Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. Romans 8:18
Blessings.
Quote from: deances on January 03, 2012, 09:59:41 PM
Yes, the Bible did make me feel good when I'd read it, but for most of my life I didn't actually read it - rather, I read books that quoted (accurately) from it, but quoted a lot of the "feelgood" passages from it. When I recently read it, a little over a year ago, from cover to cover, taking exhaustive notes (a five-month process), it seemed more like a message trying to exploit human fear: "Believe in me, or else! Do as I say, or else! If you're on my good side, you'll be rewarded, but if you're on my bad side, incur my wrath!"
There is a lot killing the Bible. That's true. But the laws always read like: "If you do X, then the punishment is Y."
Y can be horrifying. But Y is the punishment. When Y is being stoned to death then it ends at death. Nowehere it says the punishment goes on after death.
Statements like "In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you." are easily misunderstood.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 03, 2012, 11:15:55 PM
Nowehere it says the punishment goes on after death.
good example of where our conditioned "filtering" comes in...we often add our own learned interpretations and assumptions.
the Judgment and Punishments, and Word Studies sections on the first page might be helpful to explore :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on January 03, 2012, 11:00:10 PM
Welcome.
Quote from: lomarah on January 03, 2012, 08:05:23 PM
Yes I also agree with you about punishment.
The Bible is not an easy book to understand and there is sometimes much lost (and added) in translation, but with the guidance of the Holy Spirit it is the written Word of God.
:thumbsup:Quote from: CHB on January 03, 2012, 07:54:28 PM
We will know as we are known.
I don't think God will place us in a literal pit of fire for any duration. The fire is a spiritual fire, or spiritual experience I should say.
CHB
Amen. Quote from: deances on January 03, 2012, 09:59:41 PM
Thanks, everyone, for welcoming me to the boards, and it's great to read your responses. A couple of follow-up points:
I agree with the points regarding corrective "punishment," and so perhaps "punishment" is not the best translation - maybe it should be "rehabilitation."
or 2) I am not interpreting them correctly.
We've been conditioned to read the scriptures and interpret them through the lens of 1500 years of darkness, foisted upon us by orthodoxy with its vile pagan influences - including the unregenerated hearts and minds of much of the "powers of the 'church' " through the Dark Ages. Translations, interpretations, our own [even unknown and unnoticed] biases and distortions - all lead to our seeing God in a different way than Who He really Is. I've heard Nathan say, and I think it's very much worth considering, that all scripture should be read through the view of Love...God IS love. Love may discipline. And an Immense Love such as God, Who is in summary, above our human understanding [For who can know the LORD's thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice? Rm. 11:34], may do things that through our veiled human eyes, may not make sense, seem like love, even seem "wrong". But to come to the place of being shown that God will have all men be saved, that the end of the Lord truly is mercy, that everything He does is for good whether we can grasp it right now or not - and then to walk humbly before our God, trust Him that it's in Him we live, breathe, and have our being - is truly a blessing.
All scripture is God-breathed. It's us who see through a glass darkly, and have our own varying levels of being veiled.
Believe me, I STRUGGLE with this (and have no right to, as God has blessed me day after day with all His mercies), but we can cling to this; Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. Romans 8:18
Blessings.
Absolutely!!! Great post J
chb
Quote from: CHB on January 04, 2012, 12:26:42 AM
Absolutely!!! Great post J
chb
:HeartThrob: Blessings to you and your husband.
That is precisely the problem I have, WhiteWings: I take little comfort in a doctrine whereby our Heavenly Father condones stoning a person to death, merely because it means that the punishment ends at death and is not eternal.
Particularly when some of the offenses that might result in such fatal stoning might include: wearing a wool sweater with linen pants, allowing an ox and donkey to plow in the same field, or touching the skin of a dead pig. Regarding the latter, that would mean anyone who has ever played a game of football is a prime candidate for being executed by way of stone-hurling.
"Hey, but at least it's not eternal," does not seem to be enough of a consolation. I think the entire matter is wholly inconsistent with the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving and, in turn....all enlightened Supreme Being.
Tearfully,
we see so often focus on the result of our stiff neck instead of turning back to the Lord.
Lord I pray...make me your hunter.
His promises are solid.
There are many who have never read the Bible cover to cover YET come to complain about their misery.
I think Deances isn't worried, or doubting the promises. It's the many wars is the OT.
OUR wars are always won with faith.
Exactly right, Whitewings.
I believe God is love, and God is goodness. I am not God, so I am not 100% love and goodness, though of course I wish I were.
To the extent that I have love and goodness inside of me, I know that comes from God.
And not that God needs any defending, but sometimes when I read in the Bible about the brutal death that God inflicts or promises to inflict, I feel like suing the publisher for libel: i.e., defaming our Heavenly Father's good name.
QuoteI feel like suing the publisher for libel: i.e., defaming our Heavenly Father's good name.
Maybe that's because you don't understand why he is doing what he is doing.
I think we have to ask ourselves--would we want that job? And, what would we do differently?
But, of course, that would depend on us having the information he has about the ages.
You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives Gen 50:20
Wow Molly!! I liked that. :thumbsup:
CHB
:cloud9: Great post, Jab... :thumbsup:
You are absolutely right, Molly. I don't understand what He is doing, and neither does anybody else, and that is precisely my point.
I don't have a problem THAT God caused the Great Flood - along with earthquakes, tsunamis, disease, etc. After all, God allows mortal death to occur every day, tearing families apart and causing them great heartache.
My criticism is not with the events, it is with the human interpretation that God is doing these things because He is angry. Anger is a human flaw - a weakness. When we get angry and raise our voices, or even throw something, we regret our action after we have collected our thoughts. For those who do worse, the typical reaction is: "go to an anger management class."
The rock singer, Bono, in criticizing various churches' fundraising methods, once said: "My God isn't short of cash, mister."
And to that, I add: "My God doesn't need anger management classes."
You don't think God gets angry?
I remember a ten year old saying to me once, after I read some Old Testament stories--why is God so angry?
How would you answer that?
Why did he get so angry with his people, or do you think he is wrongfully represented in the Bible?
Think about Jesus lashing out at the money lenders, turning over their tables and chasing them out with whips---
He said to them, "The Scriptures declare, 'My Temple will be a house of prayer,' but you have turned it into a den of thieves." Lk 19:46
Was he angry? Was he justified in his anger?
Hi deances,
Wouldn't you say that it is right for God to teach us how to forgive? What better way to learn forgivness than to learn to forgive God? Look what happened to Jesus and this was forordained before the world began. Do you think Jesus forgave God his Father for all the suffering he had to endure? I think all of the things that happen in this life are a learning experience that may start out as a bad thing but when it is finished the results are a good thing.
I remember going through some rough times in my life but when they were over, after a while they seem like a distant thing that I can hardly remember now and I learned a few things by going through them. When I was a child and got punished for something I did, that was a learning experience. You learn the benefits of doing the right thing and the consequences of doing wrong. A positive and a negative. This is what the world and all that is in it operates on. The tree of good and evil.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 04, 2012, 05:48:21 PM
Hi deances,
Wouldn't you say that it is right for God to teach us how to forgive? What better way to learn forgivness than to learn to forgive God?
Meaning God did wrong things.
No!! but it seems wrong to us acording to this topic.
CHB
Not? :winkgrin:
Seems wrong. Ok. I understand what you mean, but for me forgiving is closely related to mistakes.
:2c:
Hi Molly (et al.)
Yes, I think God is wrongfully represented in the Bible, unless the text is inaccurately translated, and "angry" means something other than losing one's temper.
Again, anger is a flaw. Jealousy is a flaw. On the other hand, "passion" and "protectiveness" are not flaws, and so if one were to say God is very passionate, and very protective, that is much different.
There are even passages in the Old Testament (don't recall in which book, somewhere between Exodus and Deuteronomy), where Moses has to calm God down, as God is ready to unleash tremendous havoc on the masses and Moses stops Him. Maybe God was simply testing Moses to see if Moses would have compassion, or had some other motive, but I find it completely inconceivable that God would lose His temper.
Also, after the Great Flood, God seemed to regret what he had done (a mistake, then?), and vowed never to destroy human beings again because, after all, they cannot help being bad - a vow which he broke over and over again.
Again, I disagree with those interpretations, which leads me back to my original point that either 1) they are simply inaccurate information; or 2) we are not reading them information correctly
Actually He vowed never to destroy all living creatures again. "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done." Genesis 8
Death can be a merciful thing to those who keep digging themselves deeper and deeper into sin. They are in great bondage and only hurt themselves and others.
Make sure to read all of the "punishment" verses in light of this: He does not want ANYONE to perish, but wants ALL to come to repentance. (See 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4). Also something to always keep in mind: Lamentations 3:33 "For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men." Take note: He does not like "punishing" us!
But: Hebrews 12:10 "...God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness."
All of our discipline is for our own good.
I do believe that everything God does is for our own good. The focus here is not the ACT, but the MOTIVE. Consider these two examples, to illustrate:
SCENARIO A: Jack makes fun of Bob's tie. Bob loses his temper and punches Jack.
SCENARIO B: Bob is walking home and notices a man (let's call him Baxter) attacking a woman, with a knife in his hand, about to stab her. With no time to waste, Bob pulls out his gun and shoots Baxter, killing him.
ACT v. ACT: In Scenario A, a mere punch. In Scenario B, a fatal shooting.
MOTIVE v. MOTIVE: In Scenario A, anger. In Scenario B, to save a victim's life.
So again, my immediate criticism is not WHAT God did, but human interpretation attributing it to his anger - to his loss of temper.
The Hebrew word "anep" is only used for God's anger.
For the anger of humans various other words are used.
:cloud9: I think God's anger could be described as righteous judgment. His judgment is unto victory, ours is not. He can both kill AND raise up. My :2c:
I think the Bible is a history of how people used to think and react to particular situations. If you'll indulge me in another illustration: suppose that little Johnny (5 years old) is afraid to go to sleep because he is afraid of monsters. Crying and in clear distress, Johnny asks his father: "dad, can you please stand outside my door and if a monster tries to come in, you'll kill him?"
Johnny's Dad thinks it is futile at this particular time of night to try to convince his little boy that those monsters he saw on TV are not real. Instead, he takes an empty unlabeled spray bottle from the closet, fills it with water, and writes: SPECIAL MONSTER-KILLING SPRAY on the label. He tells Johnny "don't worry, son, I'll be outside this door with the special monster-killing spray, you're safe."
Fast forward 25 years later - Johnny - now John - is 30 years old and about to be married. He and his dad are in the attic, looking over old memorabilia, and his dad is going to give John some fatherly advice about married life. In their search, they find that old spray bottle from when Johnny was five, with the SPECIAL MONSTER-KILLING SPRAY label still attached to it. They both share a good laugh over that old memory.
Now, here's the analogy: IF Johnny were to write down his dad's wise advice about married life (such as: be good to your wife, treat her with respect and kindness, be quick to forgive, be loyal, be faithful, etc.), that would be like the WISE things written in the Bible (such as: turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, with God all things are possible, etc.).
HOWEVER, if Johnny were ALSO to write down: "In case a monster tries to break in to our bedroom and kill my wife and me, I must always remember to keep a bottle of SPECIAL MONSTER-KILLING SPRAY on hand," then that would be like the portions of the Bible that sound (to me) as if they were interpreted by folks from Ancient times with limited knowledge, who seem utterly child-like to us today (such as: God and the Devil made a bet about how faithful Job would be, God didn't speak out against slavery altogether, just made sure that if you knock out your slave's tooth, you have to set him free, the only man good enough to survive the flood - Noah - disowned his son who dared to view Noah naked when Noah was drunk out of his mind, etc.).
So I think the Bible contains some of the truly WISE things that Jesus said, and much of the illogical primitive interpretations of like made by the folks at the time. Much like SPECIAL MONSTER-KILLING SPRAY.
:cloud9: What it comes down to, is you're accessing what the carnal minds of men have interpreted it to say. It doesn't matter what age it was in, the carnal mind of men was never intended to be the Interpreter in the first place. But try, try, it will, with it's last dying breath. My :2c:
TRUTH! Just the other day my husband and I were discussing the Bible and he asked in exasperation, "Why did God make the Bible so impossible to understand?!?" And then it dawned on me that it was precisely because we need the Lord to guide us into all truth- the carnal mind could never do it!
Lomarah, that's an excellent post! You, Card, and really everyone, have made some really good points.
God-breathed scripture may not always sit well with us or make sense to our extremely limited, only partly-functioning (5%?) human mind. But to say it's just man's interpretations and opinions, is to deny what the scriptures say about themselves; that they are God-breathed, and the things were recorded by holy men of old as directed by the Holy Spirit.
As I said earlier, I also struggle with some of these things. However, I don't think we can always explain it, nor that we should attempt to explain it away. I believe we need to take it to the Lord for help in understanding and revelation, ask the Holy Spirit for interpretation, and humble ourselves before Him.
Deances and Cardinal I don't think you two are too far off. Paul talks of us growing into the fully mature man. I wonder if there is individual growth into the fully mature man and global growth. If all of history, and this whole ride is for our learning, then maybe the human race is maturing as a corporate body. We will be a corporate body eventually.
Slavery is a good example. Its pretty abhorrent to the majority of humans on the planet now, back then maybe not so much, I'm sure the slaves weren't too happy about it, but there didn't seem to be too much uproar from the disciples about it.
I'm not saying all the things in the bible didn't actually happen, but maybe they went down that way because of the immaturity of the population (morally, scientifically, spiritually). God was introduced as elohim-- power, then given more and more revealing names as time went on, to finally "I will be salvation". If you look at the most primitive cultures who have animistic religion, thats what god is, power, everything has a spirit, because so much is unknown.
:dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on January 05, 2012, 01:36:08 AM
As I said earlier, I also struggle with some of these things. However, I don't think we can always explain it, nor that we should attempt to explain it away. I believe we need to take it to the Lord for help in understanding and revelation, ask the Holy Spirit for interpretation, and humble ourselves before Him.
:cloud9: EXACTLY.....I have yet to find, in decades of study, that contradictions remain in the light of increased revelation. :thumbsup: The "problem" was ALWAYS, not enough light IN ME. My :2c:
Those are all good points, which is why I remain open-minded and always say: "I may think I'm right, but I know I could be wrong" about anything and everything.
Again, it is not whether certain events happened, it is whether we consider the explanations of why they happened to make sense. For instance, a four year-old in need of an emergency appendectomy might interpret the entire experience as: "I didn't finish my dinner last night so mommy and daddy were very angry with me and took me to a dark room with these people with scary masks that cut me open with a knife and hurt me and made me cry. I promised my parents that from now on, I'll finish my dinner every night, so they won't hurt me again."
Is that really much different from explaining a tsunami as: "God was angry at the entire population - except for Noah and his kinfolks - and caused a Great Flood that drowned them all."
God had to make do with the best he had in those days and had to be practical. e.g circumcision seems a cruel practice today, but back then it was an easy way for Israelites to identify each other.
Also
Those ancient culture, especially the non Israelites philistines etc seem much more carnal minded than the worst of pagans of today.
I think that is because the spirit of Christ is flowing and pouring upon all flesh, bringing civilized manners even to the heathen.
:2c:
Quote from: deances on January 05, 2012, 02:44:43 AM
Those are all good points, which is why I remain open-minded and always say: "I may think I'm right, but I know I could be wrong" about anything and everything.
Again, it is not whether certain events happened, it is whether we consider the explanations of why they happened to make sense. For instance, a four year-old in need of an emergency appendectomy might interpret the entire experience as: "I didn't finish my dinner last night so mommy and daddy were very angry with me and took me to a dark room with these people with scary masks that cut me open with a knife and hurt me and made me cry. I promised my parents that from now on, I'll finish my dinner every night, so they won't hurt me again."
Is that really much different from explaining a tsunami as: "God was angry at the entire population - except for Noah and his kinfolks - and caused a Great Flood that drowned them all."
With no holy blood, so animal sacrifices and no holy spirit, those peoples of Babylon were contaminated the same way as a lepor, so have no choice but to destroy them before they infect Noah and his familly.
Quote from: thinktank on January 05, 2012, 02:48:50 AM
God had to make do with the best he had in those days and had to be practical. e.g circumcision seems a cruel practice today, but back then it was an easy way for Israelites to identify each other.
Also
Those ancient culture, especially the non Israelites philistines etc seem much more carnal minded than the worst of pagans of today.
I think that is because the spirit of Christ is flowing and pouring upon all flesh, bringing civilized manners even to the heathen.
:2c:
:thumbsup:
You have some wonderful examples, deances.
I am especially in need of that SPECIAL MONSTER KILLING SPRAY myself.
I"m wondering where I could get my hands on some.
Again, a child said to me once, Who cares if it's just my imagination, my fear is REAL.
So true... :laughing7:
But, yes, I do believe God had his very good reasons for the flood, and he makes it clear he is doing it for a good reason:
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them
--Gen 6
Quote from: Molly
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them
--Gen 6
For some reason this just doesn't sound right to me. It sounds like God was surprised at the wickedness of man and that he made a mistake by creating man. That just cannot be right. There has to be another explaination.
CHB
I've looked at that before C, and there is some info on it that indicates translationally, that it had more to do with the last part of the first sentence, that He was grieved/sorrowful, rather than Him changing His mind ("repenting"), being surprised, made a mistake etc... Maybe later I can look at some other translations..would be curious to know what the Hebrew Interlinear looks like, going a little "deeper" into the wording than the surface translations.. :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on January 05, 2012, 03:39:06 AM
I've looked at that before C, and there is some info on it that indicates translationally, that it had more to do with the last part of the first sentence, that He was grieved/sorrowful, rather than Him changing His mind ("repenting"), being surprised, made a mistake etc... Maybe later I can look at some other translations..would be curious to know what the Hebrew Interlinear looks like, going a little "deeper" into the wording than the surface translations.. :2c:
Perhaps this understanding will help. The actual concrete meaning derived from the 2 letter root of the word, Nun and Chet, is the same 2 letter root word for Noah. That concrete meaning is 'to sigh.' It carries both a positive and negative connotation. In the case of Noah, and the related word, Strongs Number 5118, both speak of a positive sigh, such as of relief. In the case of what God felt toward wicked humanity, it was a negative sighing, related to a groaning. Even in English we are familiar with both types of sighing.
Nothing in the word conveys the idea of God being suprised. Rather, he is describing how he felt when he witnessed the wickedness. He sighed that he made man.-Gen 6:6. Yet he knew that Noah would bring a sigh of relief (albeit briefly) when the flood occurred.-Gen 5:29
Ron
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 05, 2012, 04:07:52 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 05, 2012, 03:39:06 AM
I've looked at that before C, and there is some info on it that indicates translationally, that it had more to do with the last part of the first sentence, that He was grieved/sorrowful, rather than Him changing His mind ("repenting"), being surprised, made a mistake etc... Maybe later I can look at some other translations..would be curious to know what the Hebrew Interlinear looks like, going a little "deeper" into the wording than the surface translations.. :2c:
Perhaps this understanding will help. The actual concrete meaning derived from the 2 letter root of the word, Nun and Chet, is the same 2 letter root word for Noah. That concrete meaning is 'to sigh.' It carries both a positive and negative connotation. In the case of Noah, and the related word, Strongs Number 5118, both speak of a positive sigh, such as of relief. In the case of what God felt toward wicked humanity, it was a negative sighing, related to a groaning. Even in English we are familiar with both types of sighing.
Nothing in the word conveys the idea of God being suprised. Rather, he is describing how he felt when he witnessed the wickedness. He sighed that he made man.-Gen 6:6. Yet he knew that Noah would bring a sigh of relief (albeit briefly) when the flood occurred.-Gen 5:29
Ron
Excellent, thanks Ron! Yes, 'sighing', that's it...I'd forgotten. :thumbsup:
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 05, 2012, 04:07:52 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 05, 2012, 03:39:06 AM
I've looked at that before C, and there is some info on it that indicates translationally, that it had more to do with the last part of the first sentence, that He was grieved/sorrowful, rather than Him changing His mind ("repenting"), being surprised, made a mistake etc... Maybe later I can look at some other translations..would be curious to know what the Hebrew Interlinear looks like, going a little "deeper" into the wording than the surface translations.. :2c:
Perhaps this understanding will help. The actual concrete meaning derived from the 2 letter root of the word, Nun and Chet, is the same 2 letter root word for Noah. That concrete meaning is 'to sigh.' It carries both a positive and negative connotation. In the case of Noah, and the related word, Strongs Number 5118, both speak of a positive sigh, such as of relief. In the case of what God felt toward wicked humanity, it was a negative sighing, related to a groaning. Even in English we are familiar with both types of sighing.
Nothing in the word conveys the idea of God being suprised. Rather, he is describing how he felt when he witnessed the wickedness. He sighed that he made man.-Gen 6:6. Yet he knew that Noah would bring a sigh of relief (albeit briefly) when the flood occurred.-Gen 5:29
Ron
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 05, 2012, 01:51:21 AM
Deances and Cardinal I don't think you two are too far off. Paul talks of us growing into the fully mature man. I wonder if there is individual growth into the fully mature man and global growth. If all of history, and this whole ride is for our learning, then maybe the human race is maturing as a corporate body. We will be a corporate body eventually.
metamorphoo
:cloud9: Loved that, Ron.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 05, 2012, 04:07:52 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 05, 2012, 03:39:06 AM
I've looked at that before C, and there is some info on it that indicates translationally, that it had more to do with the last part of the first sentence, that He was grieved/sorrowful, rather than Him changing His mind ("repenting"), being surprised, made a mistake etc... Maybe later I can look at some other translations..would be curious to know what the Hebrew Interlinear looks like, going a little "deeper" into the wording than the surface translations.. :2c:
Perhaps this understanding will help. The actual concrete meaning derived from the 2 letter root of the word, Nun and Chet, is the same 2 letter root word for Noah. That concrete meaning is 'to sigh.' It carries both a positive and negative connotation. In the case of Noah, and the related word, Strongs Number 5118, both speak of a positive sigh, such as of relief. In the case of what God felt toward wicked humanity, it was a negative sighing, related to a groaning. Even in English we are familiar with both types of sighing.
Nothing in the word conveys the idea of God being suprised. Rather, he is describing how he felt when he witnessed the wickedness. He sighed that he made man.-Gen 6:6. Yet he knew that Noah would bring a sigh of relief (albeit briefly) when the flood occurred.-Gen 5:29
Ron
Thanks for these post, sighing sounds much better but it still sounds like God is disappointed, in how man has turned out, or how man was living. I don't see this thought because God knew and even planned the whole thing. I guess His ways are past finding out??
CHB
Sometimes it's clear the Bible doesn't mean what the exact words mean.
(Gen 3:9) And LORD God called to the man, and said to him, Where are thou?
The literal meaning of the words simply mean that God couldn't find Adam.
I think it's safe to assume that nobody on this forum thinks that God really couldn't find Adam.
God asks questions quite often. Is God trying to learn something? Again I think everybody will answer "no".
Unfortunately in other cases it's not that obvious....
Have been really thinking about this and asking God to show me the why as to this and suddenly it came to me that we are being made in God's image, not that we are already mind you.
If we are being made in the image of God then we are going to have his characteristicts such as anger, sadness, happy, all of the emotions that God has. Only thing is we haven't learned how to use these things properly yet. God knows how to use all of these things for the good of mankind, we don't but we are learning through God, man, and the enviorment.
When God is sad, angry, he always uses these things for good, we do not. It might not seem that God is using them for good at the time but knowing how all will end and reading the Bible, all things will eventually work out for the good of all. Joseph, Jesus, comes to mind and actually all people. When all is said and done we will know that when we are angry we won't want to go out and shoot somebody. When we are sad we will be able to deal with it, without antidepressants. Could it be that by God showing his emotions is one way of teaching man how to use them for good, even though we are not there yet?
Just some thoughts I was having. I still think there are things we don't understand abut this.
CHB
Good points, CHB. I, too, cannot fathom God having made a mistake and being perplexed by it. It sounds like God's Human Being Production Factory has a worse recall rate than the Edsel, or the Toyota Camry. :-)
Let's leave the wicked humans aside. Did he really have to drown kittens and bunny rabbits, too? Were they all wicked as well?
:cloud9: He had to destroy all unrighteous (uncovered) flesh so the Nephilim wouldn't have a place to lodge. When Jesus cast the legion into the swine, even the swine knew how to be rid of them. My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 05, 2012, 09:11:05 PM
:cloud9: He had to destroy all unrighteous (uncovered) flesh so the Nephilim wouldn't have a place to lodge. When Jesus cast the legion into the swine, even the swine knew how to be rid of them. My :2c:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: deances on January 05, 2012, 07:49:11 PM
Good points, CHB. I, too, cannot fathom God having made a mistake and being perplexed by it. It sounds like God's Human Being Production Factory has a worse recall rate than the Edsel, or the Toyota Camry. :-)
Let's leave the wicked humans aside. Did he really have to drown kittens and bunny rabbits, too? Were they all wicked as well?
~He saved them in the ark. Sometimes I wish he let the kittys die though, with all these woman and their cats.
:icon_joker:
I have lots of questions from those last couple of responses:
1. Where does it say that the Nephilim would lodge in all uncovered flesh?
2. Does that uncovered flesh include the flesh of cats, dogs, birds? Worms? Fleas? Amoeba?
3. Why didn't God just destroy the Nephilim instead?
Quote from: thinktank on January 05, 2012, 09:25:41 PM
~He saved them in the ark. Sometimes I wish he let the kittys die though, with all these woman and their cats.
:icon_joker:
:cloud9: PERISH the thought..... :winkgrin:
Sometimes I get so focused on my questions I can't see (or don't accept) the answers.
I was tempted to lock this thread until everyone reported in that they'd read this link :laughing7:.
Very seriously, this is a REALLY good look at this topic. Contains some priceless nuggets. :thumbsup:
5 minutes, PLEASE READ!! :bigGrin:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/is_old_testament_really_cruel_or_does_hellfire_make_it_look_that_way_9868.msg126010.html#msg126010
I've taken your suggestion, jabcat, and I've read the link that you recommended. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, the main points I've gotten from it are:
1. Jews are more likely than Christians, on the whole, to embrace the Old Testament, yet they are often more Christlike than the Christians are.
2. The Bible does not state that God punishes people eternally.
there are other points made as well, but I'll respond to these two, for openers:
1. Sure, it is entirely possible that any group may be more Christlike than any other group. Jews more so than Christians, Muslims more so than Jews, Bah'ais more so than Muslims, atheists, more so than Bah'ais, etc. But adherence to the Old Testament does not necessarily correlate to being Christlike, anymore than a white coif is what makes a nun spiritual.
2. Yes, agreed. The bible does not state that God punishes people eternally. But the literal Bible's God is still a "bad guy" (mind you, I don't think the ACTUAL God is a bad guy, I think the ACTUAL God is love and goodness personified). After all, Hitler didn't punish people eternally either, but he was still a bad guy.
Quote from: jabcat on January 06, 2012, 03:22:52 AM
I was tempted to lock this thread until everyone reported in that they'd read this link :laughing7:.
Very seriously, this is a REALLY good look at this topic. Contains some priceless nuggets. :thumbsup:
5 minutes, PLEASE READ!! :bigGrin:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/is_old_testament_really_cruel_or_does_hellfire_make_it_look_that_way_9868.msg126010.html#msg126010
Jab has turned to the dark side. I was only joking about the cats, Jabcat prince of the cats!
TT, wat'chu talkin' bout with that dark side stuff? :punish: I don't really like cats.. the "cat" part of my name is from back in the day, a nickname someone called me when I was a little kid...you know, "cat", as in "cool cat"... :laughing7: Let's don't take it literally. If we did I guess I'd be poking at cats, you know, "jabbing" them. :mblush:
_____________________________
"But adherence to the Old Testament does not necessarily correlate to being Christlike..."
agreed with that
As far as "the literal Bible God is a bad guy", even regardless of how much was see as literal or otherwise, we'd still probably not really "get" it or "like" it all, because IMO, as long as we're in this life, there's going to be the carnal side of us that battles the spiritual; and that can be used of satan to distract us and hold us back from a true or deeper relationship with God. There's been quite a bit shared already about our limited perspective, our minds not being able to comprehend God very much at all; that scripture tells us 1) to believe, trust, and humble ourselves before Him 2) that He has not asked us to be His counselor 3) He asks where were we [what did we have to do with it] when He created things 4) and that we really can't know the mind of God [I believe this means in-depth, to fully understand all His reasons and how/why He does things]. We can know some things about Him, "hear" His voice, etc., but still, WE SEE THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY. So I can sit around and question HIM, doubt the scriptures that HE says are breathed by Himself, even argue with Him, but the bottom line is, as stated earlier, I believe I need to go to Him and ask Him for understanding, revelation, and the grace to just humbly believe Him.
As far as this part, ..the literal Bible's God..", I'd like to address that, and some of the other points in the linked thread (thanks for reading it :) by quoting a post that the site owner, Gary Amirault made a while back during one of these similar discussions. Sometimes others can say it better - (I've already posted several of my own thoughts in this thread) - and Gary's post came to mind just a minute ago. He makes the point about the Bible being spiritual, how much is literal, allegorical, etc., which I think meets your point above in an interesting way. Hope this helps.
"Now regarding the many verses of the Bible you quoted that do not make sense to you if God is truly a loving God. There are many who have advocated things like ________ suggested, lay the blame for these gross appearing verses to the "lying pen of the Scribes." I don't think this works for a number of reasons and I can't get into much of what I'd like to say to you because it truly fills a book which I've been developing in my mind for a long time.
The prophets who wrote the Law and the prophets did not understand what they were writing. Some asked to look into the words, but most were not allowed understanding. Moses was told when he set up the Mosaic tabernacle and seemingly bizarre sacrificial system to be careful and make everything exactly to the pattern because it was patterned after heavenly things. So the law was a shadow, it was NOT reality. Children are afraid of shadows , they often see things that aren't really there. Some say thrown out the shadowy scriptures because they are simply too gross. That's a big mistake. I'm not saying come UNDER the shadow of the law, we are not under law but grace, but we can learn from the law and theprophets which point to a higher reality.
Some say, all the O.T. are simply myths borrowed from the Egyptians or the Babylonians and modified to fit the Jews. I've read many books and articles on documentary hypothesis, JEPD theory, etc. I've watched many documentaries and videos saying Christianity and Judaism is based upon ancient myths, that we shouldn't really take the scriptures, especially the O.T. as divine. Believe me, I have in my library much material (and I read it) that casts a very dark shadow over the Bible, especially portions of the Bible that speak of genocide, strange rituals like stoning your rebellious children, etc. But over the years God has given me much light and understanding of parts of the Bible that seemed at first to be just ridiculous and barbaric stuff. Many want to attribute what they don't understand to the "lying pen of the scribes." I think that's a mistake too. Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the law (first five books of the Bible) would be removed from the law till all things be fulfilled.
On the road to Emaus after the crucifixion, were two of Jesus' disciples quite discouraged. Jesus appeared to them but was not recognized. (that's important). He then explained to them the crucifixion in the light of the law and the prophets. He opened to them understanding. Well these disciples obviously KNEW the scriptures. They probably had large chunks memorized, but they did not truly see them in the light of revelation. When He explained things their hearts were burning. When Jesus broke the bread, their eyes were opened. ________, many Christians and universalists at boards like EU, WU and CU are saying one can throw out from the Bible what doesn't make sense or does not conform to one's concept of a loving god. Folks are saying to just go by your conscience or inner voice and decide for yourself what scriptures are divine and what aren't. They are calling Kaballah and Zoar (Jewish mysticism) as divine as the Bible. They are mixing all kinds of nonsense with whatever part of the Bible they have decided they want to embrace and making customized religions after their own carnal minds. I've seen many Christians who have embraced universalism go down this path and its end is not enlightenment.
Yes, on the mount of transfiguration the voice said "This is my beloved Son, hear HIM" and Moses and Elijah faded away in this VISION. Yes, the law and prophets (shadow) must give way to the LIVING WORD of the Son of God. But that doesn't mean the Law and prophets didn't serve a purpose in God's plan. One cannot understand the book of Revelation without understanding the O.T. because Revelation quotes the O.T. over 200 times.
Look, those who wrote the O.T. didn't understand what they were writing, the 12 apostles who knew Jesus after the flesh didn't understand Moses and the prophets even though they felt they kept Moses law. It wasn't until Paul who did NOT know Jesus after the flesh but after the spirit that the light of the law and prophets began to break open. Paul saw allegories where children saw literally. Hagar and her son was an allegory of the Law. CAST OUT Hagar and her son (the law) and see the promise. The letter kills but the spirit makes alive. Paul began to explain the law and Moses in an entirely new light. The law was made not to help one to be righteous, it was made to make sin even MORE sinful. Those who were under the law never really comprehended the purpose of the law. And neither do those today who want to throw out the passages of the O.T. that seem barbaric and unloving. Under the law, God was an outside entity to be feared. A God of the outside that is sensed through a carnal mind through the five imperfect senses of the body will ALWAYS see God through fear. Our natural minds are programmed biologically to lie. It cannot comprehend God regardless of how the Bible is written. So to the degree that we are "natural" (and believe me Christians including universalists) are far more "natural" in their understanding of God and the Scriptures than they care to see, one cannot truly see or understand God. The Scriptures are spiritual.
Yes, Jesus said, "you have heard it said...." (Moses) but I say to you." Yes, there is a NEW commandment, a NEW law. "As I have loved you, love one another." It's a higher law, the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus." We are not to serve the Mosaic law, but when we see the law and prophets through the Revelation of Jesus' spirit, the law will serve us in seeing what the pattern was pointing to. The shadow of the law and prophets still has much to teach us. And to thrown it out because the veil of Moses is still over one's eyes is foolishness. We are not to come UNDER the Mosaic law, for it will blind us. But when we look at the Mosaic Law from above we gain wisdom.
The O.T. was written in Hebrew a highly exaggerative language which is very different from English. Bullinger lists over 200 different types of figures of speech in the Bible with thousands of examples. Unfortunately, we have been taught to read the Bible literally. Big mistake.
Look, I can't take any more time here, I've got to get back to my projects I have to finish today. I'll gladly talk personally to you...about textual criticism and the dangers of going down the path of throwing out stuff in the bible that doesn't suit your personality, your lifestyle, or education or whatever. I know where that mentality leads and I don't think it's helpful or healthy. We purposely do not allow threads on this board on that discussion on the topic of textual criticism because I know the food fights that ensue. I really do understand those who feel they have a right and obligation to throw out the parts of the bible they do not like, I've read their posts, I've spend a lot of time dialoging with them, I've read many books supporting the idea of relegating parts of the O.T. to myths and superstitions but believe they are wrong because God has given me a lot of light on verses that used to choke me in the past that now make a lot of sense to me.
God has a plan, a blueprint. It's hidden in the Bible. For those who can read God's language of symbols, the blueprint makes perfect sense. A blueprint usually has many pages to it each page dealing with a different aspect of a house. One page may be plumbing, one electrical, one walls, one for the first floor, one for the second, one for the foundation. Each one has language and symbols for that page that a technician familiar with that trade can understand. Just because someone cannot understand the symbols and diagrams on a particular page (or a particular covenant) that deals with electricity doesn't give them the right to throw out that page. THAT is what is being proposed by many who post on some universalist discussion boards. Because they read carnally and are wise in their own eyes, they throw out pages of God's precious blueprint and encourage babes in Christ to do the same. This is WRONG. And that kind of teaching will not be tolerated here at Tentmaker because it is harmful. These discussion boards are not set up to discuss anything and everything. It's not set up to be a chit-chat site. It's purpose is to help people understand that Jesus will save all mankind and that the Bible teaches that. The focus on this discussion board is universal salvation through Jesus Christ. It is biblical. That's it. We don't deal with thousands of other subjects some of which cause BIG food fights. Textual Criticism is one of those big food fight topics.
I want you to know, I've been to the skeptics, atheist, secular humanist pages that feature the kind of verses you presented in your list. I've engaged them in conversation. I know their mind. I was an atheist for many years. They cannot understand where I am coming from because they do not have the Holy Spirit. The Bible is foolishness to them, Old AND New Testament. I understand that. But there is something inside of me that is bigger than me, bigger than my understanding, bigger than all the doubts and fears of this realm. It is bigger than my understanding or lack of understanding of the Bible. Do not throw out what you do not understand. Cry out for understanding. The Spirit of Truth sent by Jesus to give you what belongs to Jesus and to yourself, will give understanding in due season. Patience has its virtue, but children, whether in the natural or spirit lack it.
I am writing this, not knowing whether you have been "born from above," or baptized in His Spirit. Without this probably even what I've written will not make sense. "You must be born from above. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit." "My words are Spirit and truth." If one does not have "ears to hear" then the bible and everything I've said is foolishness.
Well, like I said, __________ and _________, I'll gladly try to help with understanding this subject. But from past experience, it is not helpful from those who come to this board for help to open up a discussion on this topic here. It will draw people with an agenda and it will detract from the main purpose of this discussion forum. Thanks, peace and love. Gary Amirault, the one responsible before God for what goes on here."
I agree with the patterns, but disagree with:
QuoteMoses was told when he set up the Mosaic tabernacle and seemingly bizarre sacrificial system to be careful and make everything exactly to the pattern because it was patterned after heavenly things. So the law was a shadow, it was NOT reality. Children are afraid of shadows , they often see things that aren't really there. Some say thrown out the shadowy scriptures because they are simply too gross. That's a big mistake. I'm not saying come UNDER the shadow of the law, we are not under law but grace, but we can learn from the law and theprophets which point to a higher reality.
Look at it like a dream. If in my dream my hands are cut of that's just a bad dream. But if i wake up without hands it's no longer just a dream but reality.
So I don't agree with Gary that patterns/shadows aren't reality. For example the wars were literal events. I see no difference bewteen being murdered under the law or grace.
Hi jabcat,
Thanks for a very thoughtful and thought-provoking response. It's a shame about the "food fights" to which you refer on threads about textual criticism, or anything else. If folks could just begin with the premise that NONE of us actually knows, with certainty, anything about God or the Bible, then maybe everyone could "play nice." :grin:
That said, it sounds from what you wrote that the Bible is a big riddle. Up really means down, red really means blue, left really means right, punishment really means love, death really means life.... And if it is a riddle, indeed, once has to wonder why God put it there, and why after 2000 years we remain baffled as to its true meaning.
Now, if you have some insight about what the true meaning is, I'd be very interested to hear it. The closest I've seen to an interpretation that, IF TRUE, would be consistent with a Heavenly Father who is Pure Love, is that of Emanuel Swedenborg. Though Swedenborg's views somewhat contradict those of Universalists, as Universalists believe that everyone is reconciled with God, whereas Swedenborgians believe that there is a Hell (not with literal fire, but a place different from Heaven),and the door there is locked - but from the inside
Hi deances, thanks, and you're welcome :)
Well, of course, what you've presented is a huge question. There are others here with better insight into this than me, maybe they'll weigh in as well (as long as we can keep this as honest exploration rather than just total textual criticism/trashing the scrips.)
I'll have a little to say now, and hopefully more, later tonight. My thoughts now will be sort of bullet points/thinking out loud/an outline sketch.
God obviously wanted us to know some. He said He would preserve His Word for us, and He has. There's plenty there for us to know Him, know Him better, and to serve as "light unto our path". He also apparently didn't want us to know everything, or we wouldn't a) be in various degrees of being veiled b) looking through a glass darkly and c) would have a translation that was perfect from the originals, and somehow miraculously able to be perfectly understood in its every nuance, by all. That's obviously not the case, so then I personally have to believe that's in God's plan for us. Which leaves me with this; a) He has a perfect reason for all He does b) we aren't able to fully understand it c) He will reveal it fully to us in due season (probably the next age) and D) perhaps the end result and main reason is, He wants us to trust Him. Not our own wisdom, knowledge, puffed up in our own ability; thinking it's up to ME how God operates, what of Him I will accept or reject, in essence, having become His advisor. I believe there's an humbling effect to that, in that if I don't think I know everything, and there's SomeOne so vastly, hugely "bigger" than I, then if I submit to Him, learn to not struggle with Him and accept His leadership as a sheep to a Shepherd, then I'm in the place where He wants us, as His children, to be. I believe when we're in that place, then as we seek Him, He does show us more, reveal the things to us HE wants us to know and experience.
We are to "have the mind of Christ", "study to show ourselves approved", etc., but again, our looking through a glass darkly, IMO, is just one more piece of His purpose of bringing us to live in HIS wisdom and will, not ours.
In the end, I believe He wants us to believe, love, and trust Him - not just figure Him out.
I was thinking earlier this morning about this verse;
Oh, how great are God's riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways! Romans 11:33
Thanks again, jabcat.
And once again, I agree with a great deal of what you write, particularly that God has lessons for us to learn, whose true meanings and motives probably will not be revealed until the next lifetime.
Part of the interest I have in ascertaining answers to the question I often ask of people: why do you believe that the Bible is authoritative? is correlating what people think the answers ARE to what people WOULD LIKE THE ANSWERS TO BE. I call it my Surgeon and Brown Chair analogy:
John was about to have life-saving surgery that he decided to have after consulting with Dr. Brown, a surgeon in whom John has the utmost confidence. A few minutes before surgery, John's wife, Mary, enters the room and makes two announcements:
ANNOUNCEMENT A: "John, I've done a lot of research and found out Dr. Brown is a fraud. He never even went to medical school. He is a mental patient that has escaped from the institution and is only pretending to be a doctor!"
ANNOUNCEMENT B: "All this time I thought the chair in Dr. Brown's waiting room was black leather. It turns out it's really not black - it is a dark shade of brown!"
Regarding Announcement A, John probably HOPES THE INFORMATION is not true. If it is true, then that means John will cancel the surgery and go back to square one: trying to find a competent surgeon to perform this difficult operation.
Regarding Announcement B: Whether the color of Dr. Brown's leather chair is black or brown, WHO CARES? It makes no difference in John's life, and so whether the information is true or not, it doesn't really matter.
Now, let's turn to two issues: GOD (the existence of God) and the BIBLE (whether the Bible is really God's Word). I think we can all agree that as human beings, while we may have strong beliefs about both, we can't really be 100% sure of either.
That said, how do you all feel about each topic? Do you HOPE it is true, or is it more like WHO CARES one way or the other?
As for God, I HOPE it's true. I HOPE there is a kind, caring, Heavenly Father who personifies love and goodness, and I look forward to the boundless joy that comes with knowing HIM and being around Him.
As for the Bible, my personal feeling is - WHO CARES? I don't need a manual to tell me who God is and how HE wants me to behave. I pray to Him and ask Him to guide me in that path every day. So, even if all the religious leaders throughout the world came forward tomorrow and said: "Okay, we admit it, we know the Bible is a hoax and we've been peddling this charade for centuries," my personal attitude would be: Big deal. As it would do NOTHING to shake my faith in God.
So, I'm curious. On the issues of God and the Bible, where do you stand? I HOPE IT'S TRUE, or WHO CARES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER?
I see the Bible as a personal message from my Creator to me.
Therefore, as I read it, I trust that I will know as much as he wants me to know.
John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
I hope to be called 'friend' some day.
<—— http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veT1G-_aAsg&feature=related
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 06, 2012, 10:17:41 PM
<—— http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veT1G-_aAsg&feature=related
LOL! Beautiful!
Ok, Molly, that sounds like an "I hope that the Bible is God's word is true," as opposed to "I wouldn't care one way or the other."
I suppose, in retrospect, if the answer to the second question: Do you HOPE that the Bible is the Word of God is true, is YES, I DO HOPE THAT, then that answers the first question, which is: Do you HOPE that it is true that God exists?
:grin:
What? No, I was taking the third option.
Actually, right now I hope God finds my credit card before tomorrow, otherwise I won't have anything to eat.
Send up a prayer for me, will you? lol
I just did, Molly. Prayed for you to find your credit card. Hope it helps! :grin:
Maybe I rephrased the question incorrectly, but the way I meant it, there isn't a third option. It's like saying: you are a human being, or you are not a human being. if you say: "I am an antelope," then that's not a third option. That is part of: "I am not a human being."
It seems to me that if you consider the Bible to be God's message to you, and since (I presume) you love God and want to please Him, then it seems like you HOPE that your assumption that the Bible is indeed God's message to you is true.
An easy example of what you probably don't care about, is whether the color of Jesus' eyes was light-brown or dark-brown. That would probably fall into the I DON'T REALLY CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER category.
So, all I'm asking, regarding the Bible (as opposed to regarding the existence of God), do you HOPE it is really the Word of God, or wouldn't you care one way or the other if God left us no God-breathed, God-inspired written message whatsoever?
My answer is, it became very personal when I tried to wander away from it. If one knows me very well, I don't often say "God told me"; for one reason, although I do believe we can hear His voice, I believe we also are vulnerable to hearing our own voice and attributing it to God. However, in this case, it was very clear, direct, and came with strong conviction that put me on my knees. I didn't have to guess or hope, God let me know.
My thoughts simply are, Jesus became the revealed Word in flesh, but His doing so did not negate the logos, which scripture states is forever settled in the heavens. In my understanding (and I've had some very intense dealings from God regarding His Word) there's the Word (thought/intent of God), the written Word, and Jesus the Word revealed and come in the flesh - not one or the other.
IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh. As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.
John 6:63 Jesus said ".....the Words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".
John 1:1 Christ is the living Word of God.
Scripture is the written Word of God - John 14:23 JESUS (THE WORD) SAID, "if a man love me he will keep my Words"
Matthew 4:4 "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
John 15:3 Again, JESUS (THE WORD) SAID, "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you".
Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired. God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word. Yes, Jesus is the Word -become flesh. But God also has written Word and spoken/revealed Word. They operate in tandem. They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.
I later inquired (again) of God about this topic. He immediately let me know He had already let me know. I went to the written Word. These scriptures are from perhaps the most literal English translation available, The Christian Bible (1991).
I John 2:7 The Law is called the Word that was heard
2:8 Then again, I am writing a new Word to you that is true in Him.
:14 I have written to you...and God's Word is staying in you
Mathew 13:18-22 Jesus talks about the Word about the Kingdom, in the parable of the sower - Vs. 22; "Now the one among the thorns into which the seed was planted, this is the person who hears the Word, but the concerns of this age and enticement or riches stifle the Word, and it beomes unfruitful.
Mt. 15:3 "Why do you step beyond the boundaries of God's Direction because of your tradition? ...now you have invalidated God's Word because or your tradition."
Rev. 3:8 You have kept my Word and you haven't disowned my name ("Yesu")
John 1:14 The Word became flesh
John 8:31 Then Yesu was saying..."if you stay in My Word, you are truly my students"
37 "you are seeking to kill Me, for My Word has no room in you"
John 17:6,8 "I made your Name apparent...they have kept Your Word. Now they have come to know that everything that You have given to Me, is from You, because they have kept the Declarations that you gave me, I have given to them, and they accepted them, and truly knew that came out from You..."
"Well seen! I too watch over My Word to see it fulfilled" (Jer. 1:11-12).
Thanks for the prayer, Deances!
I guess I can't say 'I hope" it is the word of God because that would imply that there is a possibilitiy in my mind that it isn't.
And, that possibility never enters my mind.
As with most letters I receive, I assume the writer is who he says he is. I am focused on the information in the letter, not whether it's a forgery or fraudulent.
It just never enters my mind. And, I read the Bible every day.
I just want to see what God will show me today.
Maybe that's faith?
The Bibles we have today I know have misinterpretations in them but I also know that the original words that were given to the apostles and prophets were from God. If I didn't believe this I probably would be an atheist. I also believe that the Bible with all of it's misinterpretations was planned by God.
Am not trying to be a smart alec but why all of the questions as to what we believe about God and the Bible? Why do you care what we believe? Every one has to answer for themselves.
CHB
I understand your point, Molly. Let's look at it this way, then:
Statement 1: God exists.
Statement 2: The Bible exists.
Question: Is it important to you that God exists? Is it important to you that the Bible exists?
CHB states a clear personal correlation between the Bible and the belief in God.
I also understand, respect, and appreciate, the concept of faith, because that is where premises begin. For example, if someone were to say to me: "How do you know that God is not inherently evil, and this whole business about being all-loving and all-forgiving is just a scam, so that one day He'll reveal to us that He will torment us forever, just to see the looks on our faces as our hope completely shatters!"
My response would be: because I begin everything with the PREMISE that good is superior to evil, and therefore, if God is the Supreme Being, he cannot POSSIBLY be evil.
It seems many of you in here hold the same PREMISE about the Bible being God's word. What makes you have that premise? The fact that the Bible is God's word, is spoken by many, and where is that written? In the Bible. In other words, it is self-authenticating.
My question, then, is: what causes you to believe that the Bible is God's word - other than the self-authentication that is found in the Bible itself?
Also, please note: I do not have a goal to convince anyone that the Bible ISN'T God's word. As I stated in my initial post, I believe that: maybe some, or all, of it is not God's word, and may some, or all, of it is God's word - and the passages I find illogical perhaps I'm not understanding their true meaning, whether it be an inaccurate translation or an intended puzzle put there by God so we can think more deeply about the answer.
ok. Is it important to me that God exists? Yes.
Is it important to me that the Bible exists? Yes.
What causes you to believe the Bible is God's word?
I was very close to Jesus as a child. Then lost everything when hormones hit.
A little later in my life I really needed help and didn't know where to find it.
So in desperation, i thought--the Bible!
I read Psalms all night long and the next day the message I was reading was confirmed in practice, and I was hooked.
After that, for quite a while, the Bible was confirming my daily experiences and vise versa.
I realized --this book is alive!
The next stage I went through was discovering that the Bible was written by one hand.
I started jumping all over the Old and New Testament seeing where one thing correlated to another.
There is no way this could have been written by 40 something authors over 2000 or so years.
It was very exciting.
Nowadays, it's like food to me. I just need to eat it every day to live.
Oh, I should say, also, that since I come from a liberal, scientific background, I made a deal with God early on, that I would read the Bible literally, first, so I always do that when I read the Bible--read it as if it is the literal truth [much to the consternation of the more spiritual people on the board], but it has been greatly rewarding to me.
Anyway, that makes a long story short---not sure if that is the sort of answer you are looking for about the Bible, though.
That is a beautiful and inspiring story, Molly.
Personally, I always find it peaceful and heartwarming to walk through a Christian bookstore, peruse the shelves, and also look at various wooden carvings that contain passages from the Bible. One of my personal favorites - which I have hanging on my home office wall - is actually not a direct passage from the Bible, but a wonderful inspirational message nonetheless:
Don't tell God how big your storm is, tell your storm how big your God is!
My conflict with the Bible came when I read it last year, slowly, from cover to cover. I just couldn't get past the thought of: well, everything is great if you follow the rules. But what if you don't? And it was not from a personal worry. It was more like: if God is throwing a party in his penthouse apartment, I can't really have a very good time eating fine food and drinking fine wine, if I think he's got people shackled in the dark and dingy basement below.
That's what I couldn't get past, despite all of the uplifting messages.
Quote from: deances on January 07, 2012, 03:07:20 AM
...if I think he's got people shackled in the dark and dingy basement below.
Praise God that's untrue.
If you can't get past it, how do you think He feels,
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
But, I'm not really the one to talk about this, because I figure he will work it all out for the best. I trust him to do that, coming from a family of atheists, only one believer per generation, who
1 Timothy 4:10 .... have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
I just tell them, if you are ever in trouble, call out the name of Jesus. Then I duck for cover. They don't even want to hear that much.
There are countless examples in the Bible, however, when literally interpreted, that make no logical sense to me, such part of the law is (was) to stone someone to death for letting a ox and a donkey plow in the same field.
If you are not finding your answers by asking people — you could try asking God.
I do ask God - every day, for both general and specific enlightenment. Perhaps this is the path on which He is leading me - to ask and to discuss with my fellow human beings.
Quote from: deances on January 07, 2012, 03:35:17 AM
There are countless examples in the Bible, however, when literally interpreted, that make no logical sense to me, such part of the law is (was) to stone someone to death for letting a ox and a donkey plow in the same field.
Could I see the verse you are referring to?
There are tons of these examples. I will look specifically for the ox and donkey one, but while searching for that one, here are a few I came across:
These are God's instructions to Moses, to "PUT TO DEATH" anyone who:
1. Curses his mother or father (Leviticus 20:9)
2. Man who commits adultery with another man's wife (Lev. 20:10 - both the man and the adulteress to be killed)
3. Man who sleeps with his father's wife or his daughter-in-law (Lev. 20:11-2 - all parties concerned to be killed)
4. Male who sleeps with another male (Lev. 20:13)
5. Man who marries a woman AND also her mother (Lev. 14 - all three to be killed, specifically by being burned by fire)
Wait, it gets better...
6. A man who sleeps with an animal (Lev. 20:15 - kill not only the man, but the animal, too!)
7. A woman who even APPROACHES an animal to have sex with it (Lev. 20:16 - kill the woman and the animal, too!)
These are just some of many. I'll look for the ox and donkey one, the wool and linen one, and the one where no one can touch the skin of a dead pig. Which means playing football is forbidden. :grin:
These are Old Testament laws.
God was setting apart a holy people for himself.
So obviously he couldn't allow rampant depravity.
And, what's more, they had signed up for it, agreeing to keep his laws.
But these laws are not so unusual in any place other than Sodom and Gomorrah and modern day America [equivalence noted].
Kind of sounds like the Muslim countries today, doesn't it?
But does it make sense that the penalty for those acts would be death? And what about the animals?
If some woman tried to seduce a Labrador retriever, and didn't even succeed, mind you, should the townsfolk put her to death? And the dog, too?
And what about burning people by fire? That would be cruel and unusual under our Constitution's Eighth Amendment. Were the Founding Fathers less barbaric than God?
See why I'm having trouble following they literal interpretation?
Death makes sense to me, yes, in view of the need to completely wipe out the abomination from amongst a holy people.
It might make more sense spiritually to you--if you could completely wipe out the act and all memory of it and leave the person intact.
[God says in the New Covenant, he will remember their sins no more.]
Burning? I'd have to see the scripture.
The Founders--we should kiss their feet for what they have done for us. It took the evil ones some 235 years to remove the blessed protections the Founders placed around the American people. Have they finally succeeded now with ndaa?
I don't really see where you are having trouble unless you are thinking in a very general way.
For instance, we wouldn't want to go around shooting adulterers in this day and age, but would we want to be married to them?
And, in fact, a lot of people do kill their cheating spouses because cheating is, as Eric Berne might say, a level three game, destined to end badly.
If we could remove such people from a close involvement with our lives, might that be prudent?
We have that choice now, but they didn't then. They were living in each other's pockets in very close communities.
Don't forget, at that time, these Laws only applied to God's holy people.
Modern society kills people, too. But death by lethal injection is considered comparatively more humane than other measures.
Consider this death threat: "I...will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption, and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away...I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins...I will let loose among you the beasts of the field, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle...I will act with hostility against you and I...will strike you seven times for your sins...I will send pestilence upon you.
That's all God speaking, purportedly, from Leviticus 26: 14-25.
That verse about the burning, as I had mentioned before: Leviticus 20:14
Here's the one about touching the skin of a dead pig (modernly, a football): Lev. 11:8
I think all of these things really happened: disease, pestilence, inexplicable death, colossal earthy disasters. And the people of those primitive times had no idea what caused those phenomena, so they attributed them to an "angry God." Much like people many centuries ago thought thunder was "the angry shout of the gods."
well, I don't think you want to call these people primitive, Deances. They were as smart as we are, maybe smarter [not degraded by flouride and aspartame :winkgrin:]. Look at the level of their literature and then go visit a high school or college, and look for the same level.
The pig is an unclean animal to the Israelites--did you know that? And, guess what? Who would want to risk trichinosis in the sanitary conditions they had in the camps? But, there are other reasons as well. Touching a dead pig--imagine how dangerous that might be from a health point of view. So there goes your football.
Here's the thing. You are God and you are trying to create a holy people out of a people who are, shall we say, not so holy. How would you do it? If you make a list of the most depraved things you can think of [in the eyes of a holy God] and threaten them with death, do you think they would take you seriously and not do those things? Whereas, if you just, say, fine them one sheep, they might play a little more loosely with the rules, don't you think?
They also had Judges, and trials, and the need for two or more witnesses.
The whole purpose of the law is to strengthen sin.
For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power.
--1 Cpr 15
But, like Paul says, they are under a schoolmaster, the law, because they have not grown up into their inheritance yet.
Thanks Molly for the excellent points about the scriptures, the Law, God's purposes as best we can understand them. Those are all valid points of discussion. Trying to understand those things is one thing. Outright textual criticism is another. Discussion at TM is within the scriptures, not struggling over what parts are inspired and which are not - the exception being translational issues, including any parts that have been shown to be spurrious re: transcription from the originals, etc. - a very small percentage - not the huge amounts of scripture that's being called into question here.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/moderatortm_expectations_regarding_the_scriptures_7383.msg84791.html#msg84791
Gary's main focus for TM Ministries is The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, and anything that continually distracts from that is not furthering that purpose.
Where to from here dear folks? :bigGrin:
I was just getting warmed up. :winkgrin:
I was thinking --Why would you want to strengthen sin [with more and harsher laws]?
Then I was thinking--Maybe so you could see it.
You can't see sin in a place like Sodom and Gomorrah.
But, you still feel its effects eventually.
ok, ok, I hear you lol. I'm off.
Well, first of all, you all seem like a nice bunch of folks with a thought-provoking website that I think provides overall value to the continued intellectual evolution of humanity. And I certainly do not intend to overstep any boundaries set forth in this website. It's not my website, after all, and as a guest in someone's house, I follow the rules.
Forgive my naivete regarding the term "textual criticism." I am truly not quite sure what you mean by discussion within the Scriptures as opposed to textual criticism.
The very first entry to this thread summarized my thinking, which is: I agree with you that the Bible does not contain any concept of eternal punishment or damnation, but that alone does not answer other questions about actual contents of the Bible that appear wholly inconsistent with an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving Heavenly Father. I even included the notion of looking at the Bible as a library - an anthology of the universe of thought at the time, some accurate, some not - rather than a constitution or a life manual.
Molly, if you look at my post closely, you will see that I referred to "primitive times" not "primitive people." In any case, the word "primitive" is synonymous with early civilization. It is not a derogatory word, and I certainly did not use it in that spirit.
You are right about the contaminated pork in Biblical times, and hence the need for laws. Why, then, do modern-day folks follow those Old Testament laws regarding fasting, not eating meat and dairy products together, etc. Granted, some Christians look upon the New Testament as a "new" covenant that "replaced" the old, but certainly not all do. There are Christians who believe it is imperative to follow both Testaments, to have church services on Saturday (the Sabbath) as opposed to Sunday, etc. So, even though the pork is no longer contaminated, a lot of those customs have remained.
As to your question about how I would do things differently, I certainly would not dare suggest that I would possibly have a better way than God. But I see God portrayed in the Bible as the most powerful force in the universe, but not necessarily unequivocally dominating. Analogically, God is like the United States which, presumably, can defeat any other nation in war, but might have trouble if, say, every other nation in the world joined forces against the U.S., if someone developed a nuclear weapon more powerful than ours, etc. But none of that compares to God.
God does not struggle with evil - God created evil and allows it to exist, for His reasons. For His lessons that he teaches us. He does not doubt. he does not get angry. He does not get sad. He is God. He created the entire universe and can control every corner of it.
Getting back to this forum, the other thing I said very early on was that:
1. BECAUSE I cannot see a literal interpretation of the vast majority of Scripture as being logical, I conclude that;
2. EITHER some of the Bible's passages are flat-out incorrect;
3. OR, the Bible is 100% correct, but the literal interpretation is in correct.
Regarding Statement 3, I have asked for your input because I believe that some of you on this forum are well-versed in responding. And some already have - with very informative answers. :grin:
I don't want to jump the gun too much. If there's something else worthwhile to explore that's fine. Textual criticism would include making statements that indicate the scriptures are not inspired, God-breathed, that large portions of them are just man's point of view and opinions, when the scriptures themselves say otherwise. That opinion is certainly between that person and God, once a responsible effort has been made to show what the scriptures actually say, share how God has personally dealt with an individual on it, and attempt to present sound doctrine. So far I believe that's been done.
If there's anything further to be explored and learned without us getting into a vein of either continually casting doubt on the believability of the scriptures, or getting into a struggle over it (so far so good on that one :bigGrin:), then that's great. We're probably admittedly walking a fine line here - a line that's been blatantly obliterated at times in the past - so yes, I'll admit, I may have a little too much of a penetrating eye on these particular topics :cool: (x-ray glasses). Sorry, it's not always a clear or easy call.
See where this can go that's "true, and honorable, and right, and pure, and lovely, and admirable...things that are excellent and worthy of praise", so we can "think on these things". :dsunny:
If we could continue with this line I'd like to. These are questions I'd like to see some responses to. I have a general feeling, and haven't been given any specific answers directly from Him. I still operate within an inspired mindset, but its something I've been mulling lately. I've started a word study on the food laws. I'll share it when I get time to really dig in.
Right now I hang my hat on "these things were given for our example, on whom the ends of the age have come"
Quote from: jabcat on January 07, 2012, 12:16:41 AM
My answer is, it became very personal when I tried to wander away from it. If one knows me very well, I don't often say "God told me"; for one reason, although I do believe we can hear His voice, I believe we also are vulnerable to hearing our own voice and attributing it to God. However, in this case, it was very clear, direct, and came with strong conviction that put me on my knees. I didn't have to guess or hope, God let me know.
My thoughts simply are, Jesus became the revealed Word in flesh, but His doing so did not negate the logos, which scripture states is forever settled in the heavens. In my understanding (and I've had some very intense dealings from God regarding His Word) there's the Word (thought/intent of God), the written Word, and Jesus the Word revealed and come in the flesh - not one or the other.
IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh. As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.
John 6:63 Jesus said ".....the Words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".
John 1:1 Christ is the living Word of God.
Scripture is the written Word of God - John 14:23 JESUS (THE WORD) SAID, "if a man love me he will keep my Words"
Matthew 4:4 "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
John 15:3 Again, JESUS (THE WORD) SAID, "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you".
Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired. God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word. Yes, Jesus is the Word -become flesh. But God also has written Word and spoken/revealed Word. They operate in tandem. They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.
I later inquired (again) of God about this topic. He immediately let me know He had already let me know. I went to the written Word. These scriptures are from perhaps the most literal English translation available, The Christian Bible (1991).
I John 2:7 The Law is called the Word that was heard
2:8 Then again, I am writing a new Word to you that is true in Him.
:14 I have written to you...and God's Word is staying in you
Mathew 13:18-22 Jesus talks about the Word about the Kingdom, in the parable of the sower - Vs. 22; "Now the one among the thorns into which the seed was planted, this is the person who hears the Word, but the concerns of this age and enticement or riches stifle the Word, and it beomes unfruitful.
Mt. 15:3 "Why do you step beyond the boundaries of God's Direction because of your tradition? ...now you have invalidated God's Word because or your tradition."
Rev. 3:8 You have kept my Word and you haven't disowned my name ("Yesu")
John 1:14 The Word became flesh
John 8:31 Then Yesu was saying..."if you stay in My Word, you are truly my students"
37 "you are seeking to kill Me, for My Word has no room in you"
John 17:6,8 "I made your Name apparent...they have kept Your Word. Now they have come to know that everything that You have given to Me, is from You, because they have kept the Declarations that you gave me, I have given to them, and they accepted them, and truly knew that came out from You..."
"Well seen! I too watch over My Word to see it fulfilled" (Jer. 1:11-12).
:cloud9: Excellent post, Jab :thumbsup: Me, too.....my story is a little different in that when I came to Him I had no idea if the Word was true or not, and tested Him, by standing on one scripture at a time. When it bore fruit, It only took a few before I realized it had been written by God and not man.
Carnal minds of men have and continue to corrupt the Word, particularly as it relates to the power of God, which is why the Word (that was from the foundation, ie. the Spirit made flesh) within us has not fully "resurrected" yet in power and glory. But NONE of it will stop Him from doing His completed will and revealing Himself in a people called by His name.
For this cause He has given us His Spirit, that will lead us into all Truth and we need not be afraid of being mislead if we're pressing in to know HIM. My :2c: Blessings...
One other thing I'd like to mention.
There is a point you reach where you have to step out in belief, however you are able to do it.
As a child, I just believed. No problem.
As an adult--something happened. skepticism? Worldliness?
It was no longer so easy for me.
So I had to make a decision, because, as I said, I really needed help, and I was desperate.
I decided to believe.
I remembered reading about Kierkegaard's 'leap of faith', and I took the leap.
And, all of a sudden, it was like a two way switch was turned on,
And my belief was confirmed.
I had crossed a threshold, and my belief created greater belief in a resonating feedback loop.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:18
I completely agree, Molly. And that describes my faith, too, in God. I just haven't been able to make a necessary and inevitable connection between God and the Bible.
As I said at the onset, I do not dismiss the Bible - I just haven't figured it out yet. And I am cautious not too place too much credence on it, lest I turn it into a graven image that ought not to we worshipped in the Lord's stead.
I think the best advice I could give to you, Deances, is that if something is offending you, set it aside and come back to it later.
The Bible is a big book, so you don't have to focus on those things that do not make sense to you.
We change as we read the book, and over time what didn't make sense, suddenly does.
And blessed is the one who is not offended by me."
--Luke 7:23
:cloud9: AMEN :thumbsup:
I do agree with you Molly (and others), that the information in the Bible stays the same (at least nowadays, when we have the advantage of millions of copies in print, so we can ascertain if and when someone makes a change to it). But it is we who change.
A while back, I thought of "creating" my own Bible simply by taking the existing Bible and removing from it whatever I thought was either offensive or unnecessary. I stopped shortly after beginning, because I realized that I would be removing the vast majority of the book! Not that I find the majority offensive (though there's quite a large chunk of the minority that I do find offensive), but also passages such as 1 Chronicles 8, 13-27:
and Beriah ahd Shema, who were heads of fathers' households of the inhabitants of aijalon, who put to flight the inhabitants of Gath; and Ahio, Shashnak, and Jeremoth. Zebadiah, Arad, Eder. Michael, Ishpah, and Joha were the sons of Beriah. Zebadiah, Meshullam, Hizki, Heber, Ishmerai, Izliah and Jobab were the sons of Elpaal. Jakim, Zichri, Zabdi, Elienai, Zillethai, Eliel, Adaiah, Beraiah and Shimrath were the sons of Shimel, Ishpan, Eber, Elisel, Abdon, Zichri, Hanan, Hananiah, Elam, Anthothijah, Iphdeiah and Penuel were the sons of Shashak, Shamsheari, Shehariah, Athaliah.... and on it goes.
Certainly nothing offensive there, but why necessary? Why is lineage so important? Why is everything based on "sins of the father?" Why does all of mankind "fall" because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit? Why do Abraham's descendants all benefit because he was a good man and, conversely, why do an evil man's children and cattle have to suffer?
The Bible certainly does make one think. And maybe that's the whole point of it. :-)
:cloud9: Our ways are not His ways. His ways are much higher (in wisdom and understanding) than our ways. Additionally, we are bound by viewing things in the context of time, which He is not. He views the end from the beginning. Isolating one incident in the fabric of time, no more indicates the full character of God, than isolating one incident in the fabric of our lives, does.
What appears as evil to our finite minds, often is His mercy, because He knows the end from the beginning, and His judgments are unto victory.
And if you look up the names of people, places and things in the Word, and relate their names to what they did or what happened there, in the Hebrew, it will boost your faith as to Who wrote it over thousands of years. Just doing that opened my eyes, in the beginning. My :2c: Blessings....
Well, I'll say one thing: in the sense that I am always an advocate of too much information rather than too little, Kings, Chronicles, as well as other portions of the Bible, certain provide a chock full of information.
Though I think some of that is more like minutes to a meeting, or notes to a book, rather than what could have been woven into a readable story.
Also, to what extent is the entire Bible the inspired Word of God? In other words, if you or I were to add or include a chapter today, I'm sure most people would not say: "this change was God-inspired." Where, then, is the cutoff? At what point were changes to the Bible no longer widely-considered God-inspired?
God watches over His Word and man can not corrupt the Truth no matter how hard he tries.
Those who seek — find.
The question is — what is one really looking for?
:cloud9: Amen :thumbsup:
What is one really looking for? Great question.
Looking for truth, and using my God-given brain to question that which does not make sense to me along the way.
Look for the INSPIRATION.
Sorry, we're not going to continue questioning the general, overall authenticity of the scriptures. And that's what I see here. IMO, these aren't just questions about what the scriptures mean, but continually casting doubt on their inspiration and necessity, and that's a rabbit trail TM has decided to no longer go down. Opportunity has been given to explore a few things, and I'm just troubled by the undertone that keeps cropping up. As the TM scriptural expectations state, that can be done elsewhere if one is determined to do it, rather than believe what God has said and trust that He knows what he's doing. Attempting to understand, and even "gentle" continuing statements that undermine it, are two different things.
rhm said "I still operate within an inspired mindset, but its something I've been mulling lately." I encourage you to continue in the former...
I'm going to lock this for a bit, let folks re-think where this is headed, and we'll re-visit it in a little bit.
Once again I'll refer to the link in my signature re: TM's default position on the scriptures. I suggest anyone who has a disagreement with this (at least temporary) decision, read it again carefully.
Thanks, James.
"I'll gladly talk personally to you...about textual criticism and the dangers of going down the path of throwing out stuff in the bible that doesn't suit your personality, your lifestyle, or education or whatever. I know where that mentality leads and I don't think it's helpful or healthy. We purposely do not allow threads on this board on that discussion on the topic of textual criticism because I know the food fights that ensue. I really do understand those who feel they have a right and obligation to throw out the parts of the bible they do not like, I've read their posts, I've spend a lot of time dialoging with them, I've read many books supporting the idea of relegating parts of the O.T. to myths and superstitions but believe they are wrong because God has given me a lot of light on verses that used to choke me in the past that now make a lot of sense to me.
God has a plan, a blueprint. It's hidden in the Bible. For those who can read God's language of symbols, the blueprint makes perfect sense. A blueprint usually has many pages to it each page dealing with a different aspect of a house. One page may be plumbing, one electrical, one walls, one for the first floor, one for the second, one for the foundation. Each one has language and symbols for that page that a technician familiar with that trade can understand. Just because someone cannot understand the symbols and diagrams on a particular page (or a particular covenant) that deals with electricity doesn't give them the right to throw out that page. THAT is what is being proposed by many who post on some universalist discussion boards. Because they read carnally and are wise in their own eyes, they throw out pages of God's precious blueprint and encourage babes in Christ to do the same. This is WRONG. And that kind of teaching will not be tolerated here at Tentmaker because it is harmful." - Gary Amirault