You ever notice that God never once warned Adam and Eve that if they sinned they'd go to hell?
God never told Cain he was going to hell if he killed his brother or after he killed his brother? No, God never even made a whisper about it.
God never told any of Adam and Eve's decendents prior to the flood about hell.
God never told the preacher of righteousness (Noah) to warn the myriads of humanity about hell prior to the flood.
Ever notice that God never once told Moses about hell? God never once warned Israel that if they sinned against Him they were in danger of hell?
Not one curse of the law warns them about hell.
You would think that by listening to some "evangelists" (actually they should be called "phalgelists" or bad newsists) that hell was on every page of the bible.
Why was God silent on such an important issue for those many thousands of years if people really will go to an eternal hell fire and damnation?
Do you think that when Adam and Eve, Cain and the millions, possibly billions of people of the old testament stand before God at the great white throne that He is going to say:
Oh, umm, **blush** sorry but, umm, there was a slight oversight on My part. Uh, **blush** well, Michael, you tell them.
Michael: Well folks, it's like this. We were so busy running the universe that it completely slipped our minds that we had invented this place called Hell. Umm, Gabriel, why don't you tell them.
Gabriel: Umm, O.K. **blush** umm, here's the deal folks. We invested so much time and money into this new technology, I mean, can you imagine how clever we had to get just to keep these fires going for eternity and also have you suffer for eternity also? So, we think that, to get our money's worth, well, we can't just not use it due to a silly little oversight like forgetting to tell you about this. I mean, after all, if you wanted to know, you could have just asked. So ignorance is no excuse!
Michael: Very good Gabriel! Now, h----e----r----e'----s---- God!
God: Thank you Michael and Gabe! O.K., now, where were We?
Gabe whispering in God's ear: We were talking about Hell.
God: Oh yes, Hell! O.K. so, everyone, line up and run in the direction toward that red glow! LOL!
So you are saying we can sin ourselfs into heaven? :laugh:
Oh, but some of them use these verses to show there was teaching about hell. (Deut. 32:22) (2Sam. 22:6) (Job 11:8) (Psalms 9:17) (Psalms 55:15) (Prov. 7:27) (Prov. 15:11) (Prov. 27:20). There are many more verses that speak of hell. We know the meaning of the word hell but there are a lot of people that don't.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
So you are saying we can sin ourselfs into heaven? :laugh:
We already do. That why God deals graciously with all our offenses.
Quote from: CHB on February 20, 2010, 05:51:12 PM
Oh, but some of them use these verses to show there was teaching about hell. (Deut. 32:22) (2Sam. 22:6) (Job 11:8) (Psalms 9:17) (Psalms 55:15) (Prov. 7:27) (Prov. 15:11) (Prov. 27:20). There are many more verses that speak of hell. We know the meaning of the word hell but there are a lot of people that don't.
CHB
(ASV) For a fire is kindled in mine anger, And burneth unto the lowest
Sheol (grave), And devoureth the earth with its increase, And setteth on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Dt.32:22)
Sheol was translated properly "grave".
I'm sure the fire God was talking about was not literal flames too.
(ASV) The cords of
Sheol (the grave) were round about me; The snares of death came upon me. (2 Sam.22:6)
(ASV) It is high as heaven; what canst thou do? Deeper than
Sheol (the grave); what canst thou know? (Job.11:8)
The wicked shall be turned back unto
Sheol (the grave), Even all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17)
Let death come suddenly upon them, Let them go down alive into
Sheol (the grave); For wickedness is in their dwelling, in the midst of them. (Psalms 55:15)
Her house is the way to
Sheol (the grave), Going down to the chambers of death. Prov. 7:27
Sheol (the grave) and Abaddon (destruction) are before Jehovah: How much more then the hearts of the children of men! (Prov. 15:11)
Pro 27:20 Sheol (the grave) and Abaddon (destruction) are never satisfied; And the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Again, not a word about hell.
...And of course everytime someone ends up in this 'hell'...They end up being delivered from it...
...Jonah, the people in the flood....etc....
Maybe 'hell' means something else other than eternal torment?
(I'm speaking to believers in eternal punishment).
Will the penny ever drop for you lot?
Quote from: Tony N on February 20, 2010, 08:35:31 PM
God deals graciously with all our offenses.
A suburbanite :mshock:
Quote from: peacemaker on February 21, 2010, 05:44:00 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 20, 2010, 08:35:31 PM
God deals graciously with all our offenses.
A suburbanite :mshock:
I seem a little dense. What do you mean by "A suburbanite"? LOL!
Quote from: Tony N on February 22, 2010, 04:25:27 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on February 21, 2010, 05:44:00 AM
Quote from: Tony N on February 20, 2010, 08:35:31 PM
God deals graciously with all our offenses.
A suburbanite :mshock:
I seem a little dense. What do you mean by "A suburbanite"? LOL!
"Graciously living within commuting distance to the city; and the Glory hereafter to be revealed."
Good will to ALL men!
QuoteSo you are saying we can sin ourselfs into heaven? laugh
We already do. That why God deals graciously with all our offenses.
Exactly. Romans 5 brings out God's justice perfectly: All into sin, all out of sin.
Ch. 6 answers the question of, "well, if grace covers all, then let's just keep sinning, right??"
The fact is, that God's LOVE will make every knee bow; it's not hell and punishment by the Law that works righteousness.
God wins every time; not by arguing, but by loving. And we should, too..
Blessings,
brian
Very good and wise words, Brian!
Thank you!
Tony
Sin dwells within flesh itself and can not partake of the kingdom.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Young's Literal Translation
And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption;
Quote from: friendofmankind on February 21, 2010, 12:12:04 AM
...And of course everytime someone ends up in this 'hell'...They end up being delivered from it...
...Jonah, the people in the flood....etc....
Maybe 'hell' means something else other than eternal torment?
(I'm speaking to believers in eternal punishment).
Will the penny ever drop for you lot?
Deliverance. God delivers and is delivering. :thumbsup:
Is it possible the only hell we will ever know is here and now?
I am thinking that we are judged here by experiences of choices actions while here on earth in the flesh.
We experience in the flesh, but once the flesh dies we experience a much higher dimension.
Dear SQ,
Our Beloved willieH has discussed this much with the Spirit of the Lord.
Seek his posts for many answers.
Your spirit is blessed and your journey is short.
Behold...
Quote from: Beloved Servant on February 24, 2010, 04:46:18 AM
Dear SQ,
Our Beloved willieH has discussed this much with the Spirit of the Lord.
Seek his posts for many answers.
Your spirit is blessed and your journey is short.
Thank you I will look up his posts, unfortunately for now I am not really confident in all these new thoughts that keep coming to me.
I need to pray for more assurances of my thoughts that they are of God, not just my thoughts.
One thing I have been confident of for a long time is God saves all.
Death is the final awakening from the last sleep.
Now comes the mystery, not all sleep.
"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
Many people are so afraid to die that they never experience life.
peacemaker
Getting back to the original post:
Don't you think it interesting (I'm mostly writing to those whe believe in eternal torment) that God never even whispered the "Hell" word in the whole Old Testament? For thousands of years God was silent on that.
And even in the New Testament neither Jesus nor Paul nor any in the book of Acts said one word about Hell?
Yet the ETer thinks hell is on almost every page of the Bible! LOL :dontknow:
Quote from: Tony N on February 26, 2010, 03:26:23 PM
Getting back to the original post:
Don't you think it interesting (I'm mostly writing to those whe believe in eternal torment)
Tony I think you are posting on the wrong forum :laughing7:
Quotethat God never even whispered the "Hell" word in the whole Old Testament? For thousands of years God was silent on that.
And even in the New Testament neither Jesus nor Paul nor any in the book of Acts said one word about Hell?
Yet the ETer thinks hell is on almost every page of the Bible! LOL :dontknow:
It certainly is good reasoning and very true....but....as you know many translations have the word hell in the OT.
And because most ETs are more interested in the doctrine of men they keep parroting those teachings without ever looking at the
Greek. Edit Hebrew. Not much Greek in the OT :mblush:
some say that the doctrine of hell developed in the intertestamental period and was adopted by Christ
but such claim undermines the authority of the whole bible, if the paganized Jews invented hell while God's prophet Moses e.g. was silent and the Son of God adopted this teaching from them, that does not make Him very trustworthy nor all the Prophets prior to Him who where silent on this subject also.
On the other hand, it is hard to explain if you believe in hell - as that doctrine is found nowhere in the canonic writings of the Old Testament, why this may be so.
Quote from: sven on February 26, 2010, 09:51:30 PM
some say that the doctrine of hell developed in the intertestamental period and was adopted by Christ
but such claim undermines the authority of the whole bible
AND of Jesus. It would mean Jesus taught teh doctrine of men instead of that of the HS.
The doctrine of man is partly/mostly the doctrine of satan...
willieH: Hi Tony! :grin:
How-ah-yiz, ...bro? :mfriends:
Quote from: Tony N on February 26, 2010, 03:26:23 PM
Getting back to the original post:
Don't you think it interesting (I'm mostly writing to those whe believe in eternal torment) that God never even whispered the "Hell" word in the whole Old Testament? For thousands of years God was silent on that.
And even in the New Testament neither Jesus nor Paul nor any in the book of Acts said one word about Hell?
Yet the ETer thinks hell is on almost every page of the Bible! LOL :dontknow:
Amen Tony... :iagree: ...and don't let's forget
---> that there is
NO MENTION of (any word translated) "HELL" in the
GOSPEL of John, nor in
any of His letters,
NO "warning" in James, nor in the letters of Peter, nor in Jude either... :mshock:
As you said, NONE of the writers of the OT, warned of HELL... neither did GOD warn ADAM of it... and,
NONE of the writers of the NT, actually WARN of HELL either! :omg:
There is NO COMMAND to TEACH it by
CHRIST... and NONE of the OT or NT writers taught it, ...yet the modern "church" freely teaches it's DARK
CONDEMNATION anyway! :rolleye:
Ignoring that
JESUS [the
WORD] was SENT
NOT to
CONDEMN! --
John 3:17And! --- In Revelation (the REVEALING of
JESUS) the entity known as "Hell" is cast into the Lake of FIRE... along with DEATH --
Rev 20:14 --
And! --- The LAST ENEMY to be DESTROYED (eliminated) is DEATH!! --
1 Cor 15:26 -- So... if DEATH is eliminated IN the LAKE of FIRE... how does "HELL" and the folks cast into it, somehow remain? :dunno: ...well they DON'T... for all these things have to do with SIN... :dontknow:
And within GOD destroying DEATH by
CHRIST, so is the GRAVE [hades] destroyed, as well as the SIN in the folks which was what brought these 2 things forth in the first place! --
Rom 6:23So many, many, questions to ask "ET'ers"! :nod: ...So little time... :clock:
(Of course you already know that it is my belief that THIS WORLD is the "Lake of FIRE", and "cast" INTO it are the GRAVE [hades], DEATH and, ALL [which are appointed to die a DEATH] that were [because of that appointment], not written in the "Book of Life"...) :winkgrin:
Sorry for rambling a
bit bunch... :blush:
...willieH :cloud9:
To the warnings of Hell:
"Beliefs have the power to create and the power to destroy."
You can chain me.
You can torture me.
You can even destroy this body.
But you will never imprison me, for It is finished!
peacemaker
"Hell" Is Not an Old Testament doctrine:
Popular myth : Hell is an established Biblical doctrine that is in the Bible from start to finish. This is not true! Two thirds of the Bible (the Old Testament) does not mention Hell at all. ("Sheol," the Old Testament word that is sometimes translated as Hell, only means "grave" by definition, and it is where everyone in the Old Testament went when they died--good or evil, Jew or Gentile). Thus the Old Testament does not contain the concept of Hell!
Think about it...
If Hell is real, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was death- -not "eternal life" in fire and brimstone.
If Hell is real, why wasn't Cain warned about it, or Sodom and Gomorrah , or any of those who committed the earliest recorded "sins?"
If Hell is real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings in this lifetime.
If Hell is real, why are its roots in paganism, rather than the Bible? Many nations surrounding Israel in the Old Testament believed in Hell-like punishment in the afterlife, for they served bloodthirsty and evil "gods," while Israel simply taught the grave (sheol) and a hope of a resurrection. If Hell is real, why was the revelation of it first given to pagan nations, instead of God's covenant people? Did God expect Israel to learn about the afterlife from the Pagan Gentiles? If so, why did He repeatedly warn Israel to not learn of their ways?
If Hell is real, why did God tell the Jews that burning their children alive in the fire to the false god Molech, (in the valley of Gehenna ) was so detestable to Him? God said that such a thing "never even entered His mind" (Jer. 32:35). How could God say such a thing to Israel , if He has plans to burn alive a good majority of His own creation in a spiritual and eternal Gehenna of His own making?
**FACT: The King James Bible erroneously translates the word "Sheol" as Hell a total of 31 times in the Old Testament, thus setting a foundation for that doctrine in the New Testament as well as the majority of Bible translations to follow the KJV. Even so, most new translations have completely eliminated Hell from the Old Testament, as honest and better scholarship has demanded. The Jewish version of the Old Testament (the Tanakh) has no concept of Hell in it. The importance of this fact cannot be over-emphasized. If a doctrine does not appear as seed form in the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, it cannot fairly be taught as a major biblical doctrine, if indeed it can be taught as biblical at all!
By Tentmaker.org
Hell Is Not a New Testament Doctrine:
Popular myth: Jesus spoke of Hell more than He did of Heaven. This is not true! Jesus warned the Jews many times of impending destruction, both nationally and individually. He used several different terms to refer to punishment/destruction, some of which were erroneously translated as the same word, "Hell" by Bible translators. We do not deny that God will indeed judge the whole world, nor do we wish to make light of His judgments. We are challenging the belief that His judgment on sin and unbelief is eternal torment/Hell and never-ending separation from God. Certainly, Jesus spent a lot of his ministry warning people to repent or reap the consequences, (particularly "Gehenna.") But could we be reading more into His warnings than He originally intended?
Think about it.......
If Hell is real, why were most of the warnings pertaining to punishment/Gehenna directed to Israel , particularly the Lord's own disciples as well as the Pharisees? The first great cluster of references to Gehenna, are found in the Sermon on the Mount (Mat 5:22, 29, 30), Jesus' great sermon to His disciples in which He warned that one was in danger of Gehenna for the likes of calling someone a fool. This is a far cry from our modern Evangelical interpretation that says not accepting Jesus as your Savior is what sends someone to Hell. Are we perhaps missing the symbolism that Jesus originally intended?
If Hell is real, aren't we taking verses out of context when we warn non-Jewish sinners who are not part of the Mosaic covenant God made with the nation of Israel about consequences for sin which have nothing to do with them since they are not under that covenant?
Since the concept of Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? And if He was introducing the subject for the first time, why did He do it so casually, as though His listeners already understood what He was talking about?
If Hell is real, since some English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word "Gehenna," in the New Testament, why didn't this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form "ga ben Hinnom" in the Old Testament?
If the Jews did not understand "Gehenna" as a symbol of everlasting torture, but rather as a place of shame, filth, and defilement (where Israel participated in the grossest form of idol worship), why does modern theology ascribe more to the word than the original meaning did? The teaching of Gehenna has evolved in Jewish teachings to include punishment in the afterlife; but even today, Gehenna still does not mean "endless" punishment to the Jews.
If Hell is real how could the Apostle Paul (who was especially commissioned by God to preach the gospel to the nations) say that he had declared the entire counsel of God (Acts 20:27), when indeed he never warned of "Hell" in any of his letters? If Hell is real, wouldn't Paul, of all people, warn of it repeatedly?
If Hell is real, the sin/death of Adam has had a far more powerful effect on the world than the resurrection life of Christ! And yet Paul declares in Romans 5 that Christ's victory is far greater than Adam's transgression! Listen to Paul's confidence in the work of Christ! If Paul believed in eternal hell for the majority of men, how could he write the following verses?
".Just as the result of one trespass (Adam's) was condemnation for all men , so also the result of one act of righteousness (Christ's) was justification that brings life for all men . For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ( Romans 5:18,19).
"Since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)
"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4;10).
(The above verses are just a few of the many verses where Paul writes of a pre-eminent Christ that far transcends the traditional Christian view. This article is full of many more New Testament references by Paul that display his views of the Christ triumphant, unlimited, all-powerful, all-conquering, and victorious).
If Hell is real, why is it that the only time Paul even mentioned "Hell" in any of his epistles, was declare the triumph of Christ over it? (1 Corinthians 15:55). The word "Grave" in the passage is the Greek word "Hades."
If Hell is real, why is it not mentioned once in the book of Acts in any the evangelistic sermons that were recorded by the early Apostles?
If Hell is real why do some of the best Bible scholars and Bible teachers say it is not in the Greek or Hebrew text? (William Barclay, John A.T. Robinson, Lightfoot, Westcott, F.W. Farrar, Marvin Vincent, etc.)
If Hell is real, why does the word itself come from the Teutonic "Hele" (goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe ). The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.
FACT: The apocryphal books of the intertestimental period had a tremendous impact on the Jews in the time of Christ. It is from these books, especially the book of Enoch, that many of the Jewish myths and fables concerning Hell, heaven, demons and angels and many other fables first became a part of Judaism and from there became a part of Christianity. The myths and fables of these books came from Pagan influences (namely Zoroastrianism), during and after the Babylonian captivity of Israel . In fact, Zoroastrianism looks more like modern Christianity in many ways than ancient Judiasm does!
If Hell is real, why did Paul warn Timothy repeatedly to stay away from Jewish myths and fables, the likes of which were influencing many in the early church? Rather than affirming such doctrines, Paul declares them to be profane fables. (1 Tim. 1:1; Tit. 1:14)
Tentmaker.org
Think about it...
If Hell is real, why does Psalm 22 (one of the most prophetic passages in scripture concerning the Messiah) promise that because of the cross, " All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD , and all the families of the nations will worship before You. For the kingdom is the LORD'S and He rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship , all those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, even he who cannot keep his soul alive " (Psalm 22:27-29 NASB).
If Hell is real, did Jesus fail in His mission? He said, "I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (John 12:47).
If Hell is real and most find their way to it, was Jesus lying when He said if He was lifted up (crucified) that He would "draw" ("drag" in the original Greek word, "helkyo") all mankind unto Himself? (John 12:32)
If Hell is real and eternal, how can the Scriptures speak of the gathering of all things into Christ? (Eph. 1:10)
If Hell is real and eternal, how can all things be subdued unto Christ? (1 Corinthians 15:28, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 2:8).
If Hell is real and eternal, how can it be that the scriptures promise that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord? (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10).
If Hell is real and eternal, how will Jesus ever see the travail of His soul and be satisfied (Isaiah 53:11)? If the traditional understanding is correct, most of those He came to save will never experience His salvation. Do we believe that this would be satisfying to Jesus?
If Hell is real, and God sent Jesus to save people from it, can we really say that the will and pleasure of God has prospered in His hand, since, according to traditional theology, only a few will ever be saved? (Isaiah 53:10, and 55:11).
If Hell is real, and the devil is the one who deceives people into going there, isn't he ultimately the winner in the war for souls? After all, traditional interpretation of the Bible says that more people will end up in Hell than in Heaven. If so, how can we really call Satan the defeated enemy and Christ the victor?
If Hell is real and most of mankind will remain in an eternal deathlike state of torment with no chance to repent or escape, how exactly are we to understand and rejoice in the fact that Jesus destroyed death and him that had the power of death (Satan)? (Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8, Hosea 13:14, 1 Corinthians 15:55, 1 Corinthians 15:26 etc.)
If Hell is eternal, how can the increase of Christ's government and of peace have no end? (Isaiah 9:7).
FACT: The term "saved" has evolved in Christianity to mean something different than it did to the original readers and hearers of Scripture. The Greek words, "sozo" and "soteria" embrace the broad meaning of being rescued, delivered, healed and saved from danger. These words were applied in a variety of ways throughout the New Testament. There is much more to the salvation of Christ than most Christians know. Sadly, much of the church is robbed of fullness of their salvation by embracing a limited and futuristic view of what it actually means-- (i.e. "going to Heaven when they die").
Tentmaker.org
Great posts!
About hell=hades=sheol.
I'm still studying it a bit but perhaps the translation is correct. But the meaning changed.
I have Oxford English Dictionary. It list the meaning of words, plus quotations, with a timeline.
As said I'm still 'studying' it but hel seems to be the root word of: hidden, concealed, roofed, health, hole, (whole) hell.
It seems that the torture/fire meaning crept in quite late. So there is a possibilty the KJV translation is correct. It also had the correct meaning when it was written. A grave/sheol/hades is hidden/concealed/hole.
But I have to admit that other sources (strongly) hint that the torture part crept in in the 500's
:dontknow:
Hi WW,
I can understand how people got a misunderstanding about "burning in hell forever" from the way most Bibles are written concerning hell.
Take for instance what Jesus said in (Matt. 9:48-49) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched and everyone being salted with fire. I have always wondered about that one? What is the worm? I have read that it is maggots but am not sure about it.
(Matt. 5:22, 29,30). Here it talks about being in judgment and danger of hell fire.
Then we have the lake of fire which if not studied and learned what forever means can really throw a person.
I feel sorry for those who do not understand about the hell issue. Think about the agony one must go through thinking a dead loved one is burning in a fire that will never go out and they will never get out of.
CHB
I think the worm is your shame/conscience.
I think the next question is "not quenched"
For me quenched mean that it's can't be put out by external factors but will stop when it runs out of fuel.
It's like one of those fires that firemen can control. Eventually the building is burned down and the fire dies.
It quenched itself.
Hi WW,
My understanding of the fire that is not quenched is the same as yours. I think the lake of fire is a spiritual fire. It is the "worm that dieth not" that I wonder about. I don't know if it is shame or conscience, it doesn't sound like it.
(Isaiah 34:9-11) Some preachers use verse 10 to prove that everyone will burn forever and this fire will not go out but when you read the three verses, verse 11 says "But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it". If this fire burns forever how could anything dwell therein? This would be good verses to prove that forever doesn't mean what most think it means.
CHB
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE UNQUENCHABLE FIRE?
"He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."--Matt. 3:12 "And if your hand offends you, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where the worm doesn't die, and the fire is not quenched."--Mark 9:43,44.
Many suppose that the words "unquenchable fire" mean a fire of endless duration. But it is a fire that cannot be quenched until its purpose is accomplished.
Gill on Matt. 3:12: "He will burn with unquenchable fire", of divine wrath and vengeance: an allusion to a custom among the Jews, who, when they purified the increase of their unclean fields, gathered it together in an "area" or floor, in the midst of them, and then sifted it with sieves; one sort with two sieves, another with three, that they might thoroughly purge it, and burnt the chaff and stalks"
Says Dr. Paige: "When a house is destroyed by fire, the fire, strictly speaking, is unquenchable, because no effort that is made could extinguish it; but no one would allege that it would never expire of itself."
Dr. Hammond, a very judicious commentator, says: "They put fire to the chaff at the windward side, that creeps on and never gives over, till it hath consumed all the chaff, and so is a kind of unquenchable fire - Greek 'asbeston pur', here, a fire never quenchable, till it has done its work."--Com. on Matt. 3:12.
The Old Testament shows the application of the figure of fire burning chaff: Job says, the wicked are "as chaff that the storm carries away," 35:5, 21:18. See also Psalms. Isaiah 5:24. 17:13. 29:5. 33:14. 41:15. The Jewish nation, which was about to be destroyed, was represented by chaff, reserved for destruction, as it was in Matt. 3:10, by the tree which was to be hewn down and cast into the fire. The fire by which the Jews were destroyed was the fire of divine judgment: and as it did its work effectually, so it was unquenchable. It is for this reason that the punishment and destruction of the Jews are described in the Old Testament as being effected by unquenchable fire.
See Isaiah 66:23-24. "And it shall come to pass from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." The unquenchable fire here spoken of is in this world, as is evident from the phrase "new moon" and "Sabbath." Again, Jer. 17:27. "But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched." Fire kindled in the gates of Jerusalem, which devoured the palaces of Jerusalem, is said to be unquenchable. Ezek. 20:45 "Moreover, the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field; and say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord:--Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree, the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. And all flesh shall see that I the Lord have kindled it; it shall not be quenched."
Here the forests are devoured in an unquenchable fire. The meaning is, not that the fire was endless, but that it was not quenched,--it continued to burn--until all the material was destroyed. So the judgments of God on the Jews were effectually done--the nation was completely devastated and destroyed. They were like chaff of the Summer threshing floor in the consuming fire of God's judgment.
The phrase unquenchable fire, is found in six places in the New Testament. Matt. 3:12. Luke 3:17. Mark 9:43,44,45 and 46. In all of these passages the phrase should be quenchless fire. The Greek word 'asbestos', unquenchable, inextinguishable, is the original term in all the passages, verses 44 and 46 in Mark having the verb form, 'sbennutai'. What does it mean? That the fire was never to expire, literally, or that nothing could extinguish it till it accomplished its purpose? The usage of the word will determine. How did Greek authors at the time of Christ employ it?
Josephus says, [Jewish War, B. ii, ch. xvii:6.] speaking of a fire that used to burn in the temple--though at the time he wrote [A.D.80] it had gone out, and the temple was destroyed--"Every one was accustomed to bring wood for the altar, that fuel might never be needed for the fire, for it continued always unquenchable."
Strabo, [A.D. 70} described the "unquenchable lamp" that used to burn in the Parthenon, though it has long since ceased to burn. [Lib. ix: p. 606.]
Plutarch, {A.D. 110} in Numa, [p. 262] speaks of places in Delphi and Athens, "where there is a fire unquenchable," (asbeston) though in the same breath he describes it as having ceased to burn.
Eusebius, [A.D]325, Eccl. Hist. Lib. vi, chap. 41] in his account of the martyrdom of Cronon and Julian, at Alexandria, says they were "consumed in unquenchable fire, asbesto puri," though it burned only long enough to destroy their bodies.
In the Scriptures an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be extinguished until it has fulfilled its purpose.
Lev. vi: 12-13, "And the fire upon the altar shall be burning in it; it shall not be put out: and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace offerings. The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out."
Now this fire was long ago extinguished, and yet it was "never to go out." So we read in Isa. 34:9-10,
"And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."
This language is all figurative; the unquenchable fire has long since expired. These passages and extracts suffice to exhibit the Biblical and common usage of this term. In all cases it denotes fire of temporal duration. Of course our Savior used the words in the same sense in which they had always been employed.
God's judgments are denoted by fire in frequent passages: "For there is a fire gone out of Heshbon, a flame from the city of Sihon; it has consumed Ar of Moab, and the lords of the high places of Arnon." Num. 21:28. David represents the judgments of God upon the wicked in this life: "A fire goes before him and burns up his enemies round about." Psalms 97:3. God is spoken of as a "consuming fire." because he brought judgments upon the disobedient and sinful. In the prophecy of Isaiah, the destruction of Babylon is spoken of under the same figure: "Behold they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them: they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame." Isaiah 47:14. "He is a God that judges in the earth." Psalms 57:11. Paul uses nearly the same language that Moses employed when addressing the children of Israel, Deut. 4:24. "For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God."
Stuart says: "In the valley of Hinnom (gehenna mistranslated as 'hell' in many Bibles,) perpetual fire was kept up, in order to consume the trash which was deposited there; and, as the same trash would breed worms, hence came the expression--where their worm dieth not and their fire is not quenched." Dr. Parkhurst adds" Our Lord seems to allude to the worms which continually preyed on the dead carcasses that were cast out into the valley of Hinnom, (gehenna mistranslated as 'hell' in many Bibles), and to the perpetual fire, kept up to consume them." The idea of endless duration was not in the minds of the authors of these terms. They used the language to denote either literal fire that should burn until its object was accomplished, or as an emblem of divine judgments, thorough but limited.
Canon Farrar, in "Eternal Hope," "Consequences of Sin," says: "The expression 'quenchless fire,'--for the phrase 'that never shall be quenched,' is a simple mistranslation--is taken from Is. 66:24, and is purely a figure of speech, as it is there, or as it is in Homer's Iliad, 16:123."
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FURNACE OF FIRE?
The phrase "furnace of fire," occurs in these passages in the old Testament and it would be error to assume the furnace of fire and the lake of fire are referring to the same thing:
Deut. 4:20: "But the Lord has taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt."
1 Kings 8:51: "For they be your people, and your inheritance which you brought forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron."
Jer. 9:4: "Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace."
Isa. 31:9: "Says the Lord, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem."
Isa. 17:10. "Behold I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction."
Ezek. 22:18-21: "Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. Therefore says the Lord God: Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it, so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you."
The Savior had this usage in his mind, and conveyed the same thought, namely, the approaching woes on his country and race in the only places where we find the same language in the New Testament.
Matt. 13:41-42: "The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Verse 50: "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
It is nowhere said that God has a furnace in eternity, in which to burn souls. His furnace was in Jerusalem, Isa. 31:9. At the end of that age, (aion) Jesus said: "The Son of Man shall send forth his angels (messengers), and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
This was all fulfilled to the letter when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.
Hi WW,
Oh how simple it all is. :happy3: How I wish all people could see and understand this. :sigh:
CHB
Like it :thumbsup:. Thanks for the good info.
like your post WW ,
Thanks for sharing it
many times I had questioned this in Mark 9 , years and years ago but never really settled for till today :thumbsup:
seems two types of worm [man is comparable to a worm in a few scriptures] one where they breed/ multiply in corruption / decay /death
the other is pretty interesting the scarlet stuff
If the Fire is comparable to God being the consuming Fire and and the firey trials we do go though in this life [each one different times and different ways as always been , will be and will continue ] , it very well makes good sense :icon_flower:
Exd 16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. Strong's H7415 - rimmah worm bread by purification 1) maggot, worm (as cause and sign of decay)
From רָמַם (H7426) in the sense of breeding [compare רוּם (H7311)] 2) (Qal) to be rotten, be wormy a) (Qal) to be exalted
Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou [art] my father: to the worm, [Thou art] my mother, and my sister.
Job 24:20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm? and the son of man, [which is] a worm?
1) worm, scarlet stuff, crimson
a) worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'
b) scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet
1) the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"
2) worm, maggot
a) worm, grub
b) the worm "coccus ilicis"When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)
Psa 22:6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 51:8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Jon 4:7 But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Strong's G4663 - skōlēx 1) a worm, spec. that kind which preys upon dead bodies
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9
Jesus went on to say, "I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!"
The Transfiguration
2 Six days later Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up a high mountain to be alone. As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed, 3 and his clothes became dazzling white, far whiter than any earthly bleach could ever make them. 4 Then Elijah and Moses appeared and began talking with Jesus.
5 Peter exclaimed, "Rabbi, it's wonderful for us to be here! Let's make three shelters as memorialsa]—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." 6 He said this because he didn't really know what else to say, for they were all terrified.
7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my dearly loved Son. Listen to him." 8 Suddenly, when they looked around, Moses and Elijah were gone, and they saw only Jesus with them.
9 As they went back down the mountain, he told them not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Manb] had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept it to themselves, but they often asked each other what he meant by "rising from the dead."
11 Then they asked him, "Why do the teachers of religious law insist that Elijah must return before the Messiah comes?c]"
12 Jesus responded, "Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready. Yet why do the Scriptures say that the Son of Man must suffer greatly and be treated with utter contempt? 13 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they chose to abuse him, just as the Scriptures predicted."
Jesus Heals a Demon-Possessed Boy
14 When they returned to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd surrounding them, and some teachers of religious law were arguing with them. 15 When the crowd saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with awe, and they ran to greet him.
16 "What is all this arguing about?" Jesus asked.
17 One of the men in the crowd spoke up and said, "Teacher, I brought my son so you could heal him. He is possessed by an evil spirit that won't let him talk. 18 And whenever this spirit seizes him, it throws him violently to the ground. Then he foams at the mouth and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid.d] So I asked your disciples to cast out the evil spirit, but they couldn't do it."
19 Jesus said to them,e] "You faithless people! How long must I be with you? How long must I put up with you? Bring the boy to me."
20 So they brought the boy. But when the evil spirit saw Jesus, it threw the child into a violent convulsion, and he fell to the ground, writhing and foaming at the mouth.
21 "How long has this been happening?" Jesus asked the boy's father.
He replied, "Since he was a little boy. 22 The spirit often throws him into the fire or into water, trying to kill him. Have mercy on us and help us, if you can."
23 "What do you mean, 'If I can'?" Jesus asked. "Anything is possible if a person believes."
24 The father instantly cried out, "I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!"
25 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evilf] spirit. "Listen, you spirit that makes this boy unable to hear and speak," he said. "I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!"
26 Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd as people said, "He's dead." 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.
28 Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him, "Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?"
29 Jesus replied, "This kind can be cast out only by prayer.g]"
Jesus Again Predicts His Death
30 Leaving that region, they traveled through Galilee. Jesus didn't want anyone to know he was there, 31 for he wanted to spend more time with his disciples and teach them. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of his enemies. He will be killed, but three days later he will rise from the dead." 32 They didn't understand what he was saying, however, and they were afraid to ask him what he meant.
The Greatest in the Kingdom
33 After they arrived at Capernaum and settled in a house, Jesus asked his disciples, "What were you discussing out on the road?" 34 But they didn't answer, because they had been arguing about which of them was the greatest. 35 He sat down, called the twelve disciples over to him, and said, "Whoever wants to be first must take last place and be the servant of everyone else."
36 Then he put a little child among them. Taking the child in his arms, he said to them, 37 "Anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalfh] welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes not only me but also my Father who sent me."
Using the Name of Jesus
38 John said to Jesus, "Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he wasn't in our group."
39 "Don't stop him!" Jesus said. "No one who performs a miracle in my name will soon be able to speak evil of me. 40 Anyone who is not against us is for us. 41 If anyone gives you even a cup of water because you belong to the Messiah, I tell you the truth, that person will surely be rewarded.
42 "But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around your neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of helli] with two hands.j] 45 If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one foot than to be thrown into hell with two feet.k] 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It's better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.'l]
49 "For everyone will be tested with fire.m] 50 Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? You must have the qualities of salt among yourselves and live in peace with each other."
Footnotes:
Mark 9:5 Greek three tabernacles.
Mark 9:9 "Son of Man" is a title Jesus used for himself.
Mark 9:11 Greek that Elijah must come first?
Mark 9:18 Or becomes weak.
Mark 9:19 Or said to his disciples.
Mark 9:25 Greek unclean.
Mark 9:29 Some manuscripts read by prayer and fasting.
Mark 9:37 Greek in my name.
Mark 9:43 Greek Gehenna; also in 9:45, 47.
Mark 9:43 Some manuscripts add verse 44, 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.' See 9:48.
Mark 9:45 Some manuscripts add verse 46, 'where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.' See 9:48.
Mark 9:48 Isa 66:24.
Mark 9:49 Greek salted with fire; other manuscripts add and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.
This article tackles
many ET arguments:
Quotehttp://home.online.nl/spamfree/index.html?page=bible%20threatenings%20explained.htm