Hey don't know if you guys have seen this. It's a website showing how NDEs suggest Universal Salvation and
and that Hell is for purification. :happy3:
http://www.near-death.com/index.html
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html
Thanks for the links HWH,
Do you also have a link how to save time. With all the thinks to read my days are 10 hours to short :laughing7:
Today I received my NDE book that was suggested in another NDE thread. :Book:
I like those quotes.
I going to try thinking only about fluffy :cloud9: from now on. Better safe than sorry :laughing7:
Hell is a State of Mind
Hell is a state of mind. When we die, we are bound by what we think. (Angie Fenimore)
Hell is a psychological condition which represents the hellish inner thoughts and desires within some souls. In hell, souls become uninhibited and their hellish condition is fully manifested. No demons are there to inflict punishment. Each soul acts out their own anger and hatred by warring and tormenting others. (Emanuel Swedenborg)
The hell of hells is knowing you were our own devil. (Arthur Yensen)
It is your mind which creates hell. (Dr. Timothy Leary)
Hell refers to levels of negative thought-forms that reside in close proximity to the Earth realm. It is where we go to work out, or remain within, our hang-ups, addictions, fears, guilt, angers, rage, regrets, self-pity, arrogance, or whatever else blocks us from the power of our own light. (Dr. PMH Atwater)
Quote from: HealtheWordofHate on October 15, 2009, 08:41:41 PM
Hey don't know if you guys have seen this. It's a website showing how NDEs suggest Universal Salvation and
and that Hell is for purification. :happy3:
http://www.near-death.com/index.html
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html
I've read a good portion of that site. Some of it is probably right on; Other stuff on there--not so sure.
Quote from: HealtheWordofHate on October 15, 2009, 08:41:41 PM
Hey don't know if you guys have seen this. It's a website showing how NDEs suggest Universal Salvation and
and that Hell is for purification. :happy3:
http://www.near-death.com/index.html
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html
Awesome! I've been to that site too! There's actually one written by a Christian Universalist who came to believe in UR partly, if not entirely, from stories on NDEs. I personally think most NDE stories are very uplifting and beautifully portray a God of love! (and, perhaps, even the saints judging the world? I recall reading a story where not only did the being of light not condemn the man having his life interview, but neither did and "audience," and actually this "audience" supported and tried to uplift the man. Could this be the saints, judging in RIGHTEOUSNESS?)
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 15, 2009, 09:08:51 PM
Hell is a state of mind. When we die, we are bound by what we think. (Angie Fenimore)
Hell is a psychological condition which represents the hellish inner thoughts and desires within some souls. In hell, souls become uninhibited and their hellish condition is fully manifested. No demons are there to inflict punishment. Each soul acts out their own anger and hatred by warring and tormenting others. (Emanuel Swedenborg)
Does that explain why ETs get visions of BBQs?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 15, 2009, 10:55:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 15, 2009, 09:08:51 PM
Hell is a state of mind. When we die, we are bound by what we think. (Angie Fenimore)
Hell is a psychological condition which represents the hellish inner thoughts and desires within some souls. In hell, souls become uninhibited and their hellish condition is fully manifested. No demons are there to inflict punishment. Each soul acts out their own anger and hatred by warring and tormenting others. (Emanuel Swedenborg)
Does that explain why ETs get visions of BBQs?
LOL
I can just imagine two souls arguing and fighting in "Hell" saying, "You deserve to be here!" *push the other* and the other replying "No! YOU deserve to be here!" *pushes back*
After a while they'll probably realize: "Wait a second! We're both stuck here! How do we get out??"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11755611
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGMsGCDrRpM&feature=player_embedded#!
http://www.pimvanlommel.nl/?home_eng
QuoteChapter Eight was possibly the most interesting for me, titled "The Near-Death Experience and Christian Universalism". Vincent has obviously studied the "Near-Death" phenomenon quite extensively - in fact, it was the subject of one of his previous books ("Visions of God from the Near-Death Experience".) I find it reassuring that Christian Universalist teaching fits in so perfectly with the actual experiences of those who have hovered close to death's door. For instance, it is commonly reported that individuals having a negative near-death experience have seen it change into a positive experience after they simply cried out out to God or Jesus for help. Such results certainly contridict the widely-held Church teaching (Protestant, Evangelical, Catholic, Fundamentalist) that all chances for repentance end at one's death.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 10, 2011, 12:24:43 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11755611
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGMsGCDrRpM&feature=player_embedded#!
http://www.pimvanlommel.nl/?home_eng
QuoteChapter Eight was possibly the most interesting for me, titled "The Near-Death Experience and Christian Universalism". Vincent has obviously studied the "Near-Death" phenomenon quite extensively - in fact, it was the subject of one of his previous books ("Visions of God from the Near-Death Experience".) I find it reassuring that Christian Universalist teaching fits in so perfectly with the actual experiences of those who have hovered close to death's door. For instance, it is commonly reported that individuals having a negative near-death experience have seen it change into a positive experience after they simply cried out out to God or Jesus for help. Such results certainly contridict the widely-held Church teaching (Protestant, Evangelical, Catholic, Fundamentalist) that all chances for repentance end at one's death.
I really enjoyed the youtube with Dr. van Lommel. I notice you are very interested in NDE, ww. Has reading about it helped your faith in any way?
from the youtube:
The brain doesn't produce consciousness. It has a facilitating effect, like a tv transceiver. It doesn't produce consciousness, but receives it. The computer doesn't produce the internet, it receives it. If you have dementia, you have the full consciousness but can't express it because the instrument has been damaged.
An NDE was told:
"God is not the light. The light is what happens when God breathes."
@Shawn, in another thread you asked for some medical proof of NDEs.
Not sure the following qualifies as that but I think it@s a good start.
http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf
http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm
http://www.towardthelight.org/neardeathstudies/pimvanlommelarticles.htm
I don't know van Lommel but he seems to be a respected man in his field of work. Not some outcast.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 13, 2011, 09:26:46 AM
@Shawn, in another thread you asked for some medical proof of NDEs.
Not sure the following qualifies as that but I think it@s a good start.
http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf
http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm
http://www.towardthelight.org/neardeathstudies/pimvanlommelarticles.htm
I don't know van Lommel but he seems to be a respected man in his field of work. Not some outcast.
Thank you for these. The Lancet is a well respected medical journal. These kinds of studies are significant because they are scrutinized by peer review I skimmed the first study. I'll see if I can take a closer look at the structure of the study and potential problems. The main issue I can see with these kinds of reports is the fact that it's not observable. We have to take peoples word through interviews. In the area of medical science this is always an issue. It's kind of like when people see UFOs...maybe it happened maybe it didn't. Also, I wonder about the reluctance of people to report negative experiences and negative after effects.
With all of that said, I believe there is something to it. What supports my feelings is the fact that the reports are similar across boundries of culture, religion, and geography... Not in this particular study but in others I have read. The uniformity of reports lends itself to it's credibility. I would be very curious to see these types of studies all around the world. Comparing the results would be fascinating.
I agree Shawn we have no real way to verify things.
One point I found stricking.
82% of all clinically dead patients did
not have any sort of recollection/NDE.
If 'the white light' is just a hallicunation of the brain shutting down then all patients should report that white light.
Of course it can be argued the 82% just forgot....
I also wonder how people without brain activity can have dreams/hallicunations/NDEs
I think a ordinary dream requires a "lot" op measureble brain activity???
QuoteWhat supports my feelings is the fact that the reports are similar across boundries of culture, religion, and geography... Not in this particular study but in others I have read.
That info is also in this article. There is zero correlation between NDEs and religion, race, intelligence, fear of dead etc
I'm looking forward to your critical review. Personally I think this kind of articles are extra well peer reviewed because they are onorthodox.
Do you have acces to follow up articles/replies? For example someone debunking the research method and/or interpretation of the results?
Shawn,
A often heard NDE explantion is that people just had a very realistic dream.
Can brain activity be so low that EEG doesn't detect it while having a dream?
This graph (http://www.youramazingbrain.org.uk/insidebrain/brainsleep.htm#) seems to show during sleep brain activity is 2-5x as high as when awake. If true that refutes the dream idea.
The other refutation is that clinically dead people were buried and came alive in their coffin (scratchmarks on the lid)
Not sure they were declared dead by just feeling the wrist by a home doctor (dunno how it's called in English)
I think that makes a difference in relaibility compared with a OK team and fancy equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlJXUi-z3Oc&feature=related
Some good info in that video.
Dr Ring's site mentioned in de video: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts04.html
Dr. Sabom: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts07.html
1 hour long BBC NDE docu: http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/entertainment/watch/v13849505FA93dzHh
YouTube version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1vWoUoiaP4&feature=related
http://www.dayidied.com/
http://www.biography.com/video.do?name=isurvivedbeyondandback => many parts
http://www.integralworld.net/vanlommel.html
"It is love, not religion, that creates spiritual growth." - Sandra Rogers, near-death experiencer
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 13, 2011, 12:26:24 PM
Shawn,
A often heard NDE explantion is that people just had a very realistic dream.
Can brain activity be so low that EEG doesn't detect it while having a dream?
This graph (http://www.youramazingbrain.org.uk/insidebrain/brainsleep.htm#) seems to show during sleep brain activity is 2-5x as high as when awake. If true that refutes the dream idea.
The other refutation is that clinically dead people were buried and came alive in their coffin (scratchmarks on the lid)
Not sure they were declared dead by just feeling the wrist by a home doctor (dunno how it's called in English)
I think that makes a difference in relaibility compared with a OK team and fancy equipment.
I know of no way someone can dream without EEG activity. While REM sleep is a low voltage sleep...it's still easily seen on an EEG. Assuming all parties to the study are trusted and we are being told the truth by the patient...in my mind it would make the dream theory highly unlikely.
Yikes . . .religion and spiritual growth in the same sentence . . .I don't know . . .
Ever wonder why NDE's are so sought after? Why are they so important? Are we looking for something more tangible to grab ahold of other than what we currently have in and around us now?
I'm more wondering why in the first time in the history of the world we are actually able to bring people back from the dead rather routinely.
At no other time in history would such reports [nde] in such numbers be possible.
It must be the end of the age. lol
:cloud9: To me, it's just another witness......
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
--Luke 16
:laughing7:
:laugh:
Quote from: shawn on January 14, 2011, 02:30:05 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 13, 2011, 12:26:24 PM
Shawn,
A often heard NDE explantion is that people just had a very realistic dream.
Can brain activity be so low that EEG doesn't detect it while having a dream?
This graph (http://www.youramazingbrain.org.uk/insidebrain/brainsleep.htm#) seems to show during sleep brain activity is 2-5x as high as when awake. If true that refutes the dream idea.
The other refutation is that clinically dead people were buried and came alive in their coffin (scratchmarks on the lid)
Not sure they were declared dead by just feeling the wrist by a home doctor (dunno how it's called in English)
I think that makes a difference in relaibility compared with a OK team and fancy equipment.
I know of no way someone can dream without EEG activity. While REM sleep is a low voltage sleep...it's still easily seen on an EEG. Assuming all parties to the study are trusted and we are being told the truth by the patient...in my mind it would make the dream theory highly unlikely.
Next question :mblush:
Is REM sleep possible with medication given in an OK?
IIRC I long ago read an article why sleeping pills give a 'bad night rest'.
They let de person sleep but they supress the needed REM sleep.
So my noobie thougt is that the medication makes dreams impossible?
A doktor would hate me having a dream during chirurgery.
I'm quite lively. Sleepwalking. Yelling. I once hit my girlfriend a blackeye in my sleep because I was "air drumming" :laughing7:
If you read the article you will find a list of the exact medication used.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 14, 2011, 10:08:47 AM
Quote from: shawn on January 14, 2011, 02:30:05 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 13, 2011, 12:26:24 PM
Shawn,
A often heard NDE explantion is that people just had a very realistic dream.
Can brain activity be so low that EEG doesn't detect it while having a dream?
This graph (http://www.youramazingbrain.org.uk/insidebrain/brainsleep.htm#) seems to show during sleep brain activity is 2-5x as high as when awake. If true that refutes the dream idea.
The other refutation is that clinically dead people were buried and came alive in their coffin (scratchmarks on the lid)
Not sure they were declared dead by just feeling the wrist by a home doctor (dunno how it's called in English)
I think that makes a difference in relaibility compared with a OK team and fancy equipment.
I know of no way someone can dream without EEG activity. While REM sleep is a low voltage sleep...it's still easily seen on an EEG. Assuming all parties to the study are trusted and we are being told the truth by the patient...in my mind it would make the dream theory highly unlikely.
Next question :mblush:
Is REM sleep possible with medication given in an OK?
IIRC I long ago read an article why sleeping pills give a 'bad night rest'.
They let de person sleep but they supress the needed REM sleep.
So my noobie thougt is that the medication makes dreams impossible?
A doktor would hate me having a dream during chirurgery.
I'm quite lively. Sleepwalking. Yelling. I once hit my girlfriend a blackeye in my sleep because I was "air drumming" :laughing7:
If you read the article you will find a list of the exact medication used.
You can certainly dream under general anesthesia.
This article might be of interest to you.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSCOL06020420070220 (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSCOL06020420070220)
As for sleep meds. I am not a fan of medications to help you sleep. It disturbs natural healthy sleep. Instead I highly advocate people to make lifestyle changes...sleep hygiene and exercise (huge help in both mood and sleep problems). If your sleep hygiene is on, you are exercising regularly (and assuming there is nothing wrong medically) and still having problems sleeping that is usually a result of anxiety. We Christians are not immune to anxiety but we do have a loving God who will comfort us if we come to him. I have had my battles with sleep over the years so I know these things work. The only thing that worked for anxious insomnia is prayer, turning everything over to God, and saying to myself, welp if it needs to be worried about tomorrow will be the soonest I think about it. Many times the things bothering me before bed are no longer bothering me in the morning. Shutting your brain down is an aquired skill for some...takes some practice.
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2011, 02:33:05 AM
Yikes . . .religion and spiritual growth in the same sentence . . .I don't know . . .
Ever wonder why NDE's are so sought after? Why are they so important? Are we looking for something more tangible to grab ahold of other than what we currently have in and around us now?
You are probably right on with your assessment. Despite being men/women of faith, some of us still experience fear of death. I know because I am one of them. Sometimes hearing about the possible first steps in the afterlife brings some solace. I want to be free from the fear of death. But, it isn't something I have been delivered from as of yet. But, our Lord is good and I know he is still working on me.
Thanks for the anesthesia link Shawn.
Personally I zero problems with death. Never had. I'm usally neutral about it. But after reading NDEs I'm curious.
In case your bed time story :winkgrin: was directe at me; I don't use any meds. Never have.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 14, 2011, 05:59:55 PM
Thanks for the anesthesia link Shawn.
Personally I zero problems with death. Never had. I'm usally neutral about it. But after reading NDEs I'm curious.
In case your bed time story :winkgrin: was directe at me; I don't use any meds. Never have.
Nope not directed at you. I just like to get up on my soapboxes from time to time when prompted by something someone says. :)
In that case I would like to see you on your soapbox regarding the Lancet article as a whole.
:soap: :soap:
:soap:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 14, 2011, 07:18:51 PM
In that case I would like to see you on your soapbox regarding the Lancet article as a whole.
:soap: :soap:
:soap:
With time my brother. :bigGrin:
I am working 48 of the next 72 hours so it might be a bit. If the shift is slow I might be able to get to it sooner rather than later. But, I would really like to look at this study for strengths and weaknesses.
http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-podcast/3328-update-aware-study-2012-a-19.html
Not sure if this qualifies as an NDE. I had a cardiac arrest and was "dead" for around 3 minutes.
I was sitting on the edge of my bed and the next thing I was semi concious of (turns out it was almost a day later)
was a type of dream of the sky wrapped in a purple haze. I had loved listening to Jimi Hendrix as a kid and was familiar with the song "Purple Haze". My wife is a R.N. and when I came out of the coma she said the purple haze thing was because they had given me the "Michael Jackson" drug and yes it was the same one Hendrix was singing about. Anyway, I was fully concious and awake about a day later I remembered absolutely nothing except the purple haze thing.
So basically, nothing to report at all except that it is the response of a small % of NDE's.
I forgot all about this thread and my desire to look at the Lancet article in depth...dissecting the study. I will try to put that on my plate for later but I will say...I have seen much death, and several who were coded and brought back. I worked in the ER for three years and never received a report of a NDE from any patient. Obviously, that could fall under population bias...but interesting to me none the less. I am curious though (as I tend to be a natural skeptic) why some get these NDEs, why some don't, and why the experience can be so different from one to the other.
85% reported no NDE.
15% is still very high.
But likely those people are questioned about it?
Did you also visit the patients after they recovered? The ER isn't the most ideal place for some chit chat I think.
I think most people that have an NDE just assume it was a nice dream and don't even talk about it. Perhaps mention it to a family member but deem it not useful to tell a hyper busy doctor about it.
Quote from: shawn on October 15, 2012, 07:51:23 PM
I am curious though (as I tend to be a natural skeptic) why some get these NDEs, why some don't, and why the experience can be so different from one to the other.
Some people get visions from God. Most don't. God uses some people as prophets. But most not. God uses some people as elect but most not.
Perhaps NDE can be added to this list.
One thing those people have in common is their extremely deep belief after the NDE.