Near Death Experiences

[Tom]

I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven. First off, do we go straight to Heaven or Hell when we die to only then get taken out of Heaven or Hell and sent before the Great White throne to be sent to Heaven or Hell again? Isn't that life after death? Even the Heavenly visions are life after death. Don't we have to die and then the resurrection? Before I became a Christian I studied alien abductions and realised as many other researchers did that the abduction looked real to the abductee but they never really left their bed.
Many Ufologists have likened alien encounters with demonic visitation. The reason I bring all this up is because we have fallen angels stuck on earth pretending to be aliens and giving apocalyptic visions to people. That means that they can give visions to people. There are so many lies being told by these fallen angels/demons that the only similarity they all have is they are the same as the lies told by the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It's always some version of -you will not die (afterlife) and you will be as gods. God tells Adam and Eve that surely you will die and guess what? He was right and the serpent was lying. Satan still is and it's always the same lies. I assert that fallen angels are giving visions to dying people so if these people survive they can tell these lies about an afterlife. Good or bad visions of Heaven or Hell do the same job. The message is there is an afterlife and you do not die. If we do not die then God is a liar and that's what the fallen angels are trying to show with these visions. That's my 3 adjusted for inflation cents.

I don't believe this was a demonic deception or an alien abduction.

"2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4)

I don't believe what happened to me was a demonic deception or alien abduction either. I don't call it a near death experience. I call it an out of body experience because I left my body and was looking down at it in a hospital bed before I rushed through darkness into the light. When I found myself back in my body, I was compelled to look in the drawer beside the bed where there was nothing but a Gideon Bible. I wasn't familiar with scripture because I was raised Catholic, but, when I opened the book and read something, I was overwhelmed with the realization that God was speaking to me through the words in that book.

I don't think we should assume all mystical experiences are demonic. We don't go straight to heaven after we die, but that doesn't mean we can't get a glimpse of it before we do. We actually go to what the King James calls hell when we die because it is simply the unseen state of dead souls. Christ even went to the unseen before his resurrection (Acts 2:31). The dead are reposing in the unseen until they will be vivified, some when we are snatched away (1 Thessalonians 4:17), and the rest, who died the second death after being judged before the great white throne, at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:22-24). I don't think having a vision validates the serpent's lie of immortality of the soul because the folks who call it a near death experience always come back. These visions are like dreams when we're awake. It's an altered state of consciousness. Death is real, and I think it's God's merciful way of removing us from this wicked eon to let us repose until we are all made alive to never die again.

I don't think this vision was demonic deception.

"1 And after six days Jesus is taking aside Peter and James and John, his brother, and is bringing them up into a high mountain, privately,
2 and was transformed in front of them. And His face shines as the sun, yet His garments became white as the light.
3 And lo! Moses and Elijah were seen by them, conferring with Him." (Matthew 17:1-3)

I don't believe this vision was a demonic deception.

"3 Now in his going he came to be nearing Damascus. Suddenly a light out of heaven flashes about him.
4 And falling on the earth, he hears a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 Yet he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" Yet He said, "I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.
6 Nevertheless, rise and enter the city, and it will be spoken to you what you must be doing."" (Acts 9:3-6)

The book of "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" is a mystical experience, and I don't think it is a demonic vision.

Mystical experiences are mysterious and sometimes misinterpreted. I think God reveals things to people sometimes in their conscious state and sometimes in dreams or visions. I don't think these visions are to be feared. I think they are telling us something, but sometimes it may be hard to understand exactly what that is. All is out of, through, and for God (Romans 11:36). I say be thankful for life's experiences, conscious or otherwise, and try to understand what they mean. As a result of my out of body experience, I have a profound realization that God really is light and love, and becoming aware of universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) has made me realize that all of creation is a demonstration of God's love which will ultimately lead to God being all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28). The church won't tell you that, but it's right there in the inspired written word of God.

[dajomaco]

Some people think that because they have a mystical experience.
That their mystical experience has greater value that all of the doctrines of scripture.
Thousands of years of teaching and tradition gone because some one has a mystical experience .I wonder what Paul would say about something like that.

[Tom]

Some people think that because they have a mystical experience.
That their mystical experience has greater value that all of the doctrines of scripture.
Thousands of years of teaching and tradition gone because some one has a mystical experience .I wonder what Paul would say about something like that.

I don't believe a mystical experience "has greater value that all of the doctrines of scripture" as you say. It should confirm scripture with some sort of revelation. I've seen some folks misinterpret their own mystical experiences. I believe scripture is the inspired written word of God. The word of God is truth, but "Thousands of years of teaching and tradition" of the church is not. I no longer follow church tradition because it invalidates the word of God just as Christ said the Pharisees did. I didn't come to this realization through a mystical experience but by studying the word of God.

"you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition" (Matthew 15:6)

[dajomaco]

I was thinking about Paul and his mystical experience and how ,for him, his mystical experience changed every thing he was ever
taught about scriptures.

[Tom]

Paul understood Christ is the complement of Hebrew scripture. He was chosen "to complete the word of God" (Colossians 1:25). I think we all need to be open to seeing things differently when we get more information. I read the King James for years thinking church doctrine about hell was truth until I became aware of universal reconciliation one day when I was on a die hard King James site and got mysteriously bounced to another site with information about it.

"for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell" (Colossians 1:19)

[dajomaco]

Paul had a mystical , and that gave him the courage to debate and argue
with all other teachers and religious leaders.

The teachers of scripture where probably going out of their minds .
Telling people Peter was not an authority on scriptures.

But they could not persuade people that just because they where,|
having a mystical experience that it proved any thing .
They said all this mystical stuff is of Satan.

But still people kept giving everything they owned away.
The Pharisees where not willing to give everything they owned away to
prove they believed whole heartedly in their scriptures.

Knowing humanity the way I do.
I will definitely take notice of any mystical or spiritual move.
Especially if we have a large group of normal people giving everything they own away.

[Tom]

I think reading scripture is a mystical experience because it is the inspired written word of God through which we receive the real power of the sword of the spirit to defend against and overcome the powers of darkness just as Christ did when confronted by Satan in the wilderness.

"For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

"11 Put on the panoply of God, to enable you to stand up to the stratagems of the Adversary,
12 for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials.
13 Therefore take up the panoply of God that you may be enabled to withstand in the wicked day, and having effected all, to stand.
14 Stand, then, girded about your loins with truth, with the cuirass of righteousness put on,
15 and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel of peace;
16 with all taking up the large shield of faith, by which you will be able to extinguish all the fiery arrows of the wicked one.
17 And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God." (Ephesians 6:11-17)

[Robert Sparks]

I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven.

They always are called NDE's but in many cases there is no medical proof for it. By that I mean; a medically skilled person didn't check vital signs. So many just as well may have had a vision/dream/or whatever term you prefer.  If true, what would be the value of the dreams of OT prophets? Or the vision as described in Revelation? Assuming they are all fake demon induced...

:dontknow:

There is a difference between the visions in the Bible and visions given by fallen angels. Visions given by Biblical Angels start with the person falling down as if dead and not being able to breath. The Angel then touches the person and they can rise. Visions induced by fallen angels don't have this effect on people. Sometimes they can't move their body (just their eyes) but they can still breath. It's not as powerful. It is scary to think that demons can make a person who don't know Jesus see anything they want them to see.

[Robert Sparks]

I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven. First off, do we go straight to Heaven or Hell when we die to only then get taken out of Heaven or Hell and sent before the Great White throne to be sent to Heaven or Hell again? Isn't that life after death? Even the Heavenly visions are life after death. Don't we have to die and then the resurrection? Before I became a Christian I studied alien abductions and realised as many other researchers did that the abduction looked real to the abductee but they never really left their bed.
Many Ufologists have likened alien encounters with demonic visitation. The reason I bring all this up is because we have fallen angels stuck on earth pretending to be aliens and giving apocalyptic visions to people. That means that they can give visions to people. There are so many lies being told by these fallen angels/demons that the only similarity they all have is they are the same as the lies told by the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It's always some version of -you will not die (afterlife) and you will be as gods. God tells Adam and Eve that surely you will die and guess what? He was right and the serpent was lying. Satan still is and it's always the same lies. I assert that fallen angels are giving visions to dying people so if these people survive they can tell these lies about an afterlife. Good or bad visions of Heaven or Hell do the same job. The message is there is an afterlife and you do not die. If we do not die then God is a liar and that's what the fallen angels are trying to show with these visions. That's my 3 adjusted for inflation cents.

I don't believe this was a demonic deception or an alien abduction.

"2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4)

I don't believe what happened to me was a demonic deception or alien abduction either. I don't call it a near death experience. I call it an out of body experience because I left my body and was looking down at it in a hospital bed before I rushed through darkness into the light. When I found myself back in my body, I was compelled to look in the drawer beside the bed where there was nothing but a Gideon Bible. I wasn't familiar with scripture because I was raised Catholic, but, when I opened the book and read something, I was overwhelmed with the realization that God was speaking to me through the words in that book.

I don't think we should assume all mystical experiences are demonic. We don't go straight to heaven after we die, but that doesn't mean we can't get a glimpse of it before we do. We actually go to what the King James calls hell when we die because it is simply the unseen state of dead souls. Christ even went to the unseen before his resurrection (Acts 2:31). The dead are reposing in the unseen until they will be vivified, some when we are snatched away (1 Thessalonians 4:17), and the rest, who died the second death after being judged before the great white throne, at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:22-24). I don't think having a vision validates the serpent's lie of immortality of the soul because the folks who call it a near death experience always come back. These visions are like dreams when we're awake. It's an altered state of consciousness. Death is real, and I think it's God's merciful way of removing us from this wicked eon to let us repose until we are all made alive to never die again.

I don't think this vision was demonic deception.

"1 And after six days Jesus is taking aside Peter and James and John, his brother, and is bringing them up into a high mountain, privately,
2 and was transformed in front of them. And His face shines as the sun, yet His garments became white as the light.
3 And lo! Moses and Elijah were seen by them, conferring with Him." (Matthew 17:1-3)

I don't believe this vision was a demonic deception.

"3 Now in his going he came to be nearing Damascus. Suddenly a light out of heaven flashes about him.
4 And falling on the earth, he hears a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 Yet he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" Yet He said, "I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.
6 Nevertheless, rise and enter the city, and it will be spoken to you what you must be doing."" (Acts 9:3-6)

The book of "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" is a mystical experience, and I don't think it is a demonic vision.

Mystical experiences are mysterious and sometimes misinterpreted. I think God reveals things to people sometimes in their conscious state and sometimes in dreams or visions. I don't think these visions are to be feared. I think they are telling us something, but sometimes it may be hard to understand exactly what that is. All is out of, through, and for God (Romans 11:36). I say be thankful for life's experiences, conscious or otherwise, and try to understand what they mean. As a result of my out of body experience, I have a profound realization that God really is light and love, and becoming aware of universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) has made me realize that all of creation is a demonstration of God's love which will ultimately lead to God being all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28). The church won't tell you that, but it's right there in the inspired written word of God.

My post was so one sided and I entirely agree with you. God is in the vision and dream business as well.

[Warhawk17]

I have my reasons to completely doubt NDE's as anything but demon induced visions including the one's of being in Heaven.

They always are called NDE's but in many cases there is no medical proof for it. By that I mean; a medically skilled person didn't check vital signs. So many just as well may have had a vision/dream/or whatever term you prefer.  If true, what would be the value of the dreams of OT prophets? Or the vision as described in Revelation? Assuming they are all fake demon induced...

:dontknow:

There is a difference between the visions in the Bible and visions given by fallen angels. Visions given by Biblical Angels start with the person falling down as if dead and not being able to breath. The Angel then touches the person and they can rise. Visions induced by fallen angels don't have this effect on people. Sometimes they can't move their body (just their eyes) but they can still breath. It's not as powerful. It is scary to think that demons can make a person who don't know Jesus see anything they want them to see.

Or a lot of times they prey on people's worst fears. It seems like people like Bill Wiese and Mary Baxter who have that "to hell and back" experience always come from legalistic, fire and brimstone preaching churches, and their dreams/visions are a result of the fear they've gotten from the environment they've been in. Also the human mind is a very powerful, mysterious thing, and it is very easy to misinterpret a dream. I have had dreams that are far too weird to describe on here.

[JulieTang84]

Well, I guess it is time to share a little more of my life. Back in 1990, I was involved in a horrible accident with severe head injuries. My folks were told I would not make it. Yet I did, with no concept of the weeks I lost or of the accident. Nothing and no memory of an out of body experience even though I was told that I was "brought back" several times. I have as a result severe double vision. Father looked out for me for sure.


A few years later; however, I caught a fever and was rushed to hospital. I remember being covered in ice and wet towels with fans blowing not stop, just to break the fever. Sometime after I was put in a room, fell asleep and had my out of body experience.


I was walking in a beautiful green park just on dusk and in a clearing stood a single wooden table chair. The chair was so out of place but for some reason I walked to it and sat down. The chair immediately began to lift. Slowly and gently. I could feel the wind in my face, I could hear all the sounds. I could feel the wind rush around the chair. Cool! I arose above the trees and had a perfect view of the city, soon I was level with the clouds and then above them, the Earth was growing smaller by the minute.


By now the chair was rising at a very fast rate. When the Earth became not much more than a dot, I began to worry. It's like this wasn't fun anymore. I didn't ask for this, I just sat down!!


Well I heard a voice so clear say: "Isn't this what you wanted?" Oh crap, yes it was, but not really. I mean I had more than I realized down there. The voice (whom I am certain was Father) asked if I was sure, and then the chair began to descend. It was very difficult to judge speed in space, but when I broke through the stratosphere I could sense that I was traveling way to fast. I remember thinking that this wasn't going to end well. The ground was coming way to quick. I guess I was holding on to the chair for dear life, at least I should have been.


Just when I thought it was all over, the chair began to slow and slowed very fast but controlled. The chair touched down with the most gentle bump and believe me, that touched me more than anything else.


So did I have an out of body experience? I seen no bright lights or colored vortexes. I did not see my body (if it was left behind) Yet it was so real, perhaps more real than life itself.


Interesting huh?


Love Julie :HeartThrob: [size=78%]  [/size]