Challenges with Revelations

[Seth]

One of the reasons it is believed that the Lake of fire is related to God in some way is in the connection between Revelation 20:11-14 and Daniel 7:9-11, where the fire issues from El himself.

I totally agree, but I see it in a specific way. The fire DOES come from God, but I do not believe the fire in Revelation is God himself. Here is what I mean:

2 Peter 2:6
And (God) turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned (katakrino - judged) them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

The fire came from heaven right? But watch how Paul speaks about "wrath revealed from heaven"

Romans 1:18,24,27
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.....Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 27 And they received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Wrath was revealed from heaven in Sodom and Gomorrah in the form of fire, but I believe that to be symbolic of what Lamentations said about fire in my previous post: "From on high, he (God) sent FIRE, sent it down into my bones.... MY SINS have been bound into a yoke... In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah"

From on high, God sent fire, just like how Paul was talking about it: For God turned them over to "the sinful desires of their hearts" to "recieve in themselves the due penalty for their error." It all works together. So getting back to 2 Peter 2 and his example of Sodom and Gomorrah:

2 Peter 2:12
But these (the wicked), as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish (Greek - kataphtheiro - spoil entirely, be depraved) in their OWN corruption;

And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

What Peter is saying they shall receive in the "Day of the Lord" (which is what he was talking about) is symbolized in Revelation as a Lake of Fire.

[Seth]

There are many different uses of fire as a metaphor, but when I look at the pattern of Jerusalem, mount Zion, and Gehenna below,

Isaiah 4
2In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. 3And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: 4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. 5And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. 6And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

God is a consuming fire, yes. And also wickedness is like a fire.

That is why he sets a tabernacle in Jerusalem for SHADE in the daytime FROM THE HEAT and for a place of refuge from the storm and rain. New Jerusalem is for the overcomer, so what about outside the city, where the winepress is, where smoke rises? What of that fire?

Whereas the "fiery trials" experienced by the House of God are for building up, there is also a fire that breaks down, for God "gives grace to the humble but resisteth the proud."

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy (appolumi - lose) both soul and body in Gehenna.

Gehenna is a metaphor of course, not a place, as James 3:6 shows. It is a state of spiritual destruction, one that it unsurprisingly given by God for the purpose of making humble.

Ecclesiastes 1
13And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled, brought low) therewith.

In the OT, when Israel turned to false idols, God turned them over to Babylon. He gave them over to MORE IDOLS. Why would it be any different on a spiritual level?

[Tapioca]

I noticed it's a composite article, and saw some L. Ray Smith paragraphs in there. To go directly to the source, I recommend L. Ray's page: http://www.bible-truths.com

Thank you so much for this link.  :thumbsup:

[Seth]

No problem  :Peace2:

[anna274]

There are many different uses of fire as a metaphor, but when I look at the pattern of Jerusalem, mount Zion, and Gehenna below,

Isaiah 4
2In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. 3And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: 4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. 5And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. 6And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

God is a consuming fire, yes. And also wickedness is like a fire.

That is why he sets a tabernacle in Jerusalem for SHADE in the daytime FROM THE HEAT and for a place of refuge from the storm and rain. New Jerusalem is for the overcomer, so what about outside the city, where the winepress is, where smoke rises? What of that fire?

Whereas the "fiery trials" experienced by the House of God are for building up, there is also a fire that breaks down, for God "gives grace to the humble but resisteth the proud."

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy (appolumi - lose) both soul and body in Gehenna.

Gehenna is a metaphor of course, not a place, as James 3:6 shows. It is a state of spiritual destruction, one that it unsurprisingly given by God for the purpose of making humble.

Ecclesiastes 1
13And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled, brought low) therewith.

In the OT, when Israel turned to false idols, God turned them over to Babylon. He gave them over to MORE IDOLS. Why would it be any different on a spiritual level?

Thanks for the KISS (Kept it Scripturally Simple) kiss=idiom "give homage to the Son"    I agree with all that you shared in this reply.  God has graced you with not only much scriptural truth, but also great writing skills.


and it fits my very strong opinion that physical realities reveal/teach spiritual truths ... sorry, don't want to go off OP...

[Seth]

Thank you Anna  :HeartThrob:

[gregoryfl]

One of the reasons it is believed that the Lake of fire is related to God in some way is in the connection between Revelation 20:11-14 and Daniel 7:9-11, where the fire issues from El himself.

I totally agree, but I see it in a specific way. The fire DOES come from God, but I do not believe the fire in Revelation is God himself. Here is what I mean:

2 Peter 2:6
And (God) turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned (katakrino - judged) them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

The fire came from heaven right? But watch how Paul speaks about "wrath revealed from heaven"

Romans 1:18,24,27
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.....Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 27 And they received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Wrath was revealed from heaven in Sodom and Gomorrah in the form of fire, but I believe that to be symbolic of what Lamentations said about fire in my previous post: "From on high, he (God) sent FIRE, sent it down into my bones.... MY SINS have been bound into a yoke... In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah"

From on high, God sent fire, just like how Paul was talking about it: For God turned them over to "the sinful desires of their hearts" to "recieve in themselves the due penalty for their error." It all works together. So getting back to 2 Peter 2 and his example of Sodom and Gomorrah:

2 Peter 2:12
But these (the wicked), as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish (Greek - kataphtheiro - spoil entirely, be depraved) in their OWN corruption;

And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

What Peter is saying they shall receive in the "Day of the Lord" (which is what he was talking about) is symbolized in Revelation as a Lake of Fire.

I understand better what you mean now. Thanks. :)

[watchman1706]

Your objection was that it is a composite article, which it declares at the top of the page.

Yes I know. Where did I object to that? I just mentioned it in case anyone wanted to read the unedited versions.

I wouldn't call what I actually disagree with an "objection" since the connotation of that is that I am in some way offended. It's an alternative way of thinking about the fire with respect to Revelation and in what ways it is connected to OT scriptures.

The main point is that all must face the fire and it is not a bad thing but it is the way in. The paper is on the lake of fire, not the water in the city as it is the fire that creates fear in many christians and is the source material for ECT. Water is not.

Yes, I know, and that is my point about discussion of New Jerusalem in relationship to the LOF. I think understanding the LOF is easier by understanding the entirety of what Revelation is talking about in those latter chapters, rather than focusing only on the fire itself. It completes the pattern and allows for a full understanding (IMHO)

No Seth. You were taking a cheap shot, and it's not the first time I have seen you do so. Someone puts up an article and you act like the site critic and often write an un-looked for or un-warranted commentary that often has a tone littered with "oh this is just" or "it is someone else's". No one asks for that opinionated critique. You just offer it up freely. Often one of the first posters and this brings up 2 problems IMO.

1. It dirties the waters for the following way that others will look at the information after because you have just belittled it.

2. Because you have posted so quickly, it shows me that you could not possibly have done your due diligence in studying the article. These articles are 60-70 pages long. You could have only given it a glancing or cursory look at the paper. Not really good enough to make your critical comments.

In the future, stop doing that. Let people make up their own minds and if you want to add a point or an article then feel free to do so, but not by undermining someone else. That's just low brow.

:punish: :footmouth: :doh:

[Seth]

No Seth. You were taking a cheap shot, and it's not the first time I have seen you do so. Someone puts up an article and you act like the site critic and often write an un-looked for or un-warranted commentary that often has a tone littered with "oh this is just" or "it is someone else's". No one asks for that opinionated critique. You just offer it up freely. Often one of the first posters and this brings up 2 problems IMO.

This is a forum watchman1706. You posted an article. I responded to the article, noting also that I agreed with much of it. Forums are created for discussion. You can't make rules to shut other people up.

1. It dirties the waters for the following way that others will look at the information after because you have just belittled it.

Excuse me, but I said that I agreed with much of it. People are free to read the article if they want, but I disagree with a few points. That's the point of a discussion, to talk things out.

2. Because you have posted so quickly, it shows me that you could not possibly have done your due diligence in studying the article. These articles are 60-70 pages long. You could have only given it a glancing or cursory look at the paper. Not really good enough to make your critical comments.

In the future, stop doing that. Let people make up their own minds and if you want to add a point or an article then feel free to do so, but not by undermining someone else. That's just low brow.

This is your own assumption and you are acting very defensive as if you would like to shut me up. I noted what I agreed with and what I disagreed with. That's not undermining, that's discussion.

[watchman1706]

Actually Seth, your post was mainly negative. You pointed out the articles flaws. That's not discussion. I've seen you do it a number of times before so I think I am on safe ground making certain assumptions. I simply called you out on it. Maybe it would behoove you to reflect on that and see it as a learning opportunity.

People come to forums like this to search and discover. We who are older and perhaps more mature and more versed in universal salvation and all of it's ramifications should be held to a higher standard. If we have the greater truth then we should reflect that in our character. Have more of the fruits of the spirit. It's not enough just to have more knowledge if it is not worked out on the fleshy tables of our hearts. What I know means nothing if it is not a part of me and I am not a better witness for it being a part of me.

That is why I don't respond to a great deal I have seen on this forum and others that bears no resemblance to the truth or scripture. I hold my peace because we are all at different levels. Being right is not more important than acting right.

There were a number of different tacks that you could have used to make your point that would have been more beneficial. That is what I am referring to. I don't know you personally, but on a media format that can be abrupt and curt, we can all be better communicators. Don't you think?

:Chinscratch:

[Seth]

Actually Seth, your post was mainly negative. You pointed out the articles flaws. That's not discussion. I've seen you do it a number of times before so I think I am on safe ground making certain assumptions. I simply called you out on it. Maybe it would behoove you to reflect on that and see it as a learning opportunity.

Do you see how condescending you sound? Maybe you should go back and read all my posts, and you will see that I did complement the article, and noted where I agreed. BTW, that's not even really a requirement or prerequisite. I don't have to agree with any of it. I was simply being fair by including where I did agree.

People come to forums like this to search and discover. We who are older and perhaps more mature and more versed in universal salvation and all of it's ramifications should be held to a higher standard. If we have the greater truth then we should reflect that in our character. Have more of the fruits of the spirit. It's not enough just to have more knowledge if it is not worked out on the fleshy tables of our hearts. What I know means nothing if it is not a part of me and I am not a better witness for it being a part of me.

That is why I don't respond to a great deal I have seen on this forum and others that bears no resemblance to the truth or scripture. I hold my peace because we are all at different levels. Being right is not more important than acting right.

There were a number of different tacks that you could have used to make your point that would have been more beneficial. That is what I am referring to. I don't know you personally, but on a media format that can be abrupt and curt, we can all be better communicators. Don't you think?

Sure we could all be better communicators. But I have also learned that no matter what you do, someone will always find offense. I am not perfect, by any means, but I do mean well. In this particular case, I do not believe I was not acting right in simply disagreeing with part of the article you posted and voicing it. That is what a forum is for, discussion. Some people agree and disagree.

You responded to objections I didn't make, and totally ignored the objections I did make showing me that you are more motivated by annoyance that I dared to provide an alternate viewpoint to your article, causing you to ignore what I actually said.

In any case, this thread is way of course now, the subject being your annoyance of me and my communication style. This thread is about Revelation, not what a pill Seth is.

[Seth]

2. Because you have posted so quickly, it shows me that you could not possibly have done your due diligence in studying the article. These articles are 60-70 pages long. You could have only given it a glancing or cursory look at the paper. Not really good enough to make your critical comments.

What's interesting is that about 3 people posted before me, yet I don't see you accusing them of having not read the paper.  :Chinscratch:

[Seth]

..it's my belief the Bible indicates no humans go to the LOF

http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/same-word-for-both-groups/msg169791/#msg169791

  :cloud9: :dsunny:

Here are some scriptures that indicate that people will be in the LOF (and actually I believe a manifestation of the LOF is among us today and all throughout history going back to Adam who brought death into the world)

Revelation 21
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Also..

Revelation 14
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever (eis aion aion - unto the age of the age): and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I believe that Babylon represents the flesh, or the carnal mind, or sin, generally anything contrary to God and his way. So I believe the fire represents the destruction within that "wrath of fornication."

I see the "wrath of her fornication" to be as what Paul talked about, "the wrath of God is revealed against the unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness....for this cause he gave them over to the sinful desires of their hearts" (paraphrase of Romans 1)

That's why I asked the question in my last post: If God turned Israel over to Babylon in the OT, why would he not turn them over to spiritual Babylon and the "wrath of her fornications?"