So this has always been the doomsday book or it is taught to be. I want to come to a better understanding of it without the worlds opinions on end times being inserted. The world does seem to be obsessed with apocalyptic happenings, the 666 chip, ect. However as I've learned with modern day Christianity I take everything with a grain of salt. I can't trust man to provide me their truths. So I come to my "church" (this hear forum) because Gods love abounds greatly here & maybe if it His will, one of you can be Gods vessel to help me gain better understanding.
Now I do not believe in the rapture. What are your takes from revelation in reference to the tribulation, The "ultimate" anti Christ, the mark of the beast, the mark for Gods saints & the anti Christ? Do you believe this to metaphorical or literal or a combination of both? Ultimately how does this all tie together and is the bible clear on exactly how it all goes down?
Hi rr...under the section on the forum ..book of revelation...you will find a wealth of things written . Of coarse we speak of these
things all the time and discuss them all the time. we all don't necessarily see every detail the same,either..we have been
known to even change our individual veiwpoints when the spirit blesses us and makes things a little clearer for us!
Psalms 2;26 the poor will eat[that's all of us coming out of the churches[poor as church mouses] and be satisfied...
they who seek the Lord willpraise Him-may your hearts live forever! All the ends of the earth will remember and turn
to the Lord,and all the families of the nations will bow down before Him,for dominion belongs to the Lord and He rules
over the nations. :HeartThrob:
I think you won't get a complete answer. You questions take 100s of pages to explain. And that would be just one of many views :winkgrin:
To be able to answer "metaphorical or literal or a combination of both?" the true meaning of the events/words must be known.
If Jesus speaks about casting fire upon the earth does He mean literal fire or "Pentecost fire"?
When we read 1/3 of the rivers die is it about literal rivers or something different?
If 1/3 of the ships are destroyed are we taking about literal ships or people spreading God's word?
If we read trees bowed to baby Jesus, should we understand literal trees or leaders?
Etc.
I think all events are literal. But leaders instead of trees. People spreading God's word instead of real ships. Etc.
So before any of your questions can be answered the real meaning of the words should be understood.
I like a lot of dead presidents.
Am I promoting murder or do I want a lot of dollar bills? I think that question perfectly summarizes what I wrote above.
:2c:
Read the Revelation of Jesus Christ as a book of symbols/signs that was/is given through/in Spirit. Consider the workings that have/are/ and will happen in your existence now, that the Father has drawn/dragged you, and except and meditate on what bits to large pieces you are given. And as Bro. Ray Prinzing so wonderfully pointed out, Revelation is a Positive book. :dsunny: Jesus Is Risen! :Peace2:
Quote from: rrich7 on March 13, 2014, 09:49:52 PM
So this has always been the doomsday book or it is taught to be. I want to come to a better understanding of it without the worlds opinions on end times being inserted. The world does seem to be obsessed with apocalyptic happenings, the 666 chip, ect. However as I've learned with modern day Christianity I take everything with a grain of salt. I can't trust man to provide me their truths. So I come to my "church" (this hear forum) because Gods love abounds greatly here & maybe if it His will, one of you can be Gods vessel to help me gain better understanding.
Now I do not believe in the rapture. What are your takes from revelation in reference to the tribulation, The "ultimate" anti Christ, the mark of the beast, the mark for Gods saints & the anti Christ? Do you believe this to metaphorical or literal or a combination of both? Ultimately how does this all tie together and is the bible clear on exactly how it all goes down?
What I have come to believe is that much of what Revelation has been taken to be external and future, can actually be applied now and internal.
It's tempting to externalize the book, to point the finger at the future anti christ and beast. To me, it points to the flesh that I deal with, along with everyone else. I remember the funny saying that to point one finger outward, three fingers are pointing inward.
I think one of the finest analysis of Revelation can be found here: http://bible-truths.com/ by L. Ray Smith.
If you want a balanced methodology of how to interpret revelations then read this..
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html
:banana: :declare: :iagree: :2c:
Balanced..... :2c:
Quote from: watchman1706 on March 14, 2014, 02:40:04 AM
If you want a balanced methodology of how to interpret revelations then read this..
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html
Nice link.
:flamebreath:
Quote from: watchman1706 on March 14, 2014, 02:40:04 AM
If you want a balanced methodology of how to interpret revelations then read this..
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html
:banana: :declare: :iagree: :2c:
What an amazing article, helped out a lot in perspective. Thank you
You should real the rest of the series. There are 4 papers. Just click home at the end of the article. :gimmefive:
I noticed it's a composite article, and saw some L. Ray Smith paragraphs in there. To go directly to the source, I recommend L. Ray's page: http://www.bible-truths.com
One thing I notice in the article itself is that there is no discussion at all of New Jerusalem, something very common in pretty much any article or discussion on the LOF that I have seen. I know I am stick in the mud about that, but I think it's a very valuable tool to understand the LOF, to incorporate New Jerusalem, since it's set in such clear contrast to it. That's just me, no offense intended. :dontknow:
Quote from: Seth on March 15, 2014, 02:27:31 AM
I noticed it's a composite article, and saw some L. Ray Smith paragraphs in there. To go directly to the source, I recommend L. Ray's page: http://www.bible-truths.com
One thing I notice in the article itself is that there is no discussion at all of New Jerusalem, something very common in pretty much any article or discussion on the LOF that I have seen. I know I am stick in the mud about that, but I think it's a very valuable tool to understand the LOF, to incorporate New Jerusalem, since it's set in such clear contrast to it. That's just me, no offense intended. :dontknow:
I agree in that u felt parts were "missing". Do you know of any articles that do incorporate it Seth?
rrich7,
There are definitely ET articles that discuss it, but not many UR when specifically explaining the LOF. I've actually written an article where I examine the latter chapter of Revelation in detail. I believe the the LOF is a direct reference to several OT scriptures. It's two parts and I discuss the LOF and Gehenna at the end.
http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
I look at both articles Seth and saw nothing about the New Jerusalem in either of them. Perhaps you can post the relevant sections so that we can all benefit from your non-offensive words. :dontknow:
It's there in part 2.
I tried to post the section, but it exceeded the max characters. Maybe I can rephrase it when I get the time.
I, me, personally am not "challenged" by the Revelation of Jesus Christ. :dsunny:
Well Micah,
I think my challenge with revelation comes with trying to shed E.T teachings in reference to revelation. The first I ever heard of it being a revelation of Christ was on this here forum & I haven't been here too long either. I've been told all my life its the "doomsday" book. The telling of the terrible end of those not saved in time.
So it's not that I have a challenge of a revelation of Christ, just that it was never pointed out to me as such so I never viewed it as such & also that because of the way it was beat into my psyche, I've been scared to open the book ever since ( & I've read it 3 times before I was 16).
As God is piecing bits & parts together for me, revelation becomes less scary, but now it's a matter of shedding the old & trying to gain a new understanding with having a better idea of who God is. I've prayed on it though & I told God I trust Him to reveal what He has meant to be revealed to me when the time is right. One thing I have noticed is a lot of the fear has been removed though, not all of it.
So I'm just here taking in different things, cuz God may help reveal some things to me through one of you :LH: :LH:
Quote from: watchman1706 on March 16, 2014, 01:18:54 AM
I look at both articles Seth and saw nothing about the New Jerusalem in either of them. Perhaps you can post the relevant sections so that we can all benefit from your non-offensive words. :dontknow:
I just want to say that I don't disagree with the paper, except in a few parts. I think the section on torture is excellent and I agree with whole passages, but I do disagree with some of the conclusions about what the LOF is and what inspired its presence in Revelation.
"The Old Testament texts are devoid of any such mention of a "lake of fire." Any revelations to the existence of such a place are all but silent! Where are the Prophets warnings? Where are the lamentations for the wicked that perish? Why was Solomon in his wisdom so neglectful to mention this fate to all those that hung on his every word? Indeed, why are there not DOZENS of Old Testament verses warning of the fury of the "Lake of fire," the horrific place of judgement that awaits ALL evil doers and Blasphemers? What of Paul or Peter? What of Christ Himself on his ministry on Earth? The silence is deafening is it not?"See, I don't think the silence is deafening. I think they all talked about the Lake of Fire, even if not calling it so verbatim. Are the Old Testament texts devoid of the literal phrase "lake of fire?" Yes, but not devoid of passages which seem to clearly inform John's description. Here is the Revelation 14 text, and then I will show scriptures that share the same language and imagery from the OT.
Revelation 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And
the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever (eis aion aion - unto the age of the age); they have no rest
day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors,
for their deeds follow with them."
19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into
the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden
outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.
That last part is often overlooked when it comes to the LOF. Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. They rest from their labors,
because their deeds follow with them. I think dying in the Lord here has more to do with a renewed life, not literally dying. It has to do with "deeds follow with them," like with Romans 2, they do things of the law by nature, by instinct, not their own labors. The LOF has alot to do with the opposite of that, with "worshipping the Beast."
There are several phrases that I think are interesting:
"smoke of their torment rising," "day and night," "the great winepress of God's wrath", and that they all occur
"outside the city" which I believe is clearly New Jerusalem. Here are a few OT scriptures that mirror those phrases incorporating the image of fire:
Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely
WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze,
so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.
So, there are two noteworthy scriptural truths about fire, two metaphorical uses in the Bible, following a pattern present in Scripture of both positive and negative uses of a metaphor.
1) God is a consuming fire
2) Wickedness burns like a fireGod and wickedness are not the same thing, obviously. But they are both like a fire. So if there are these two metaphorical uses and neither meaning describing the same thing, the question is, which one of them best describe the
lake of fire?
Is it "God is a consuming fire?" Or is it "wickedness burns like a fire?"
As Revelation said, "blessed are those who die in the Lord, for their deeds follow with them." The converse? Not blessed are those who do not die in the Lord. What deeds follow with them? One thing I see in the scripture above is the "column of smoke" concerning wickedness, and how that reminds me of the Lake of Fire which is called "the second DEATH." Is God death? He's the death of death, but not death itself. God brings life from the dead.
Lamentations 1:13-15
"
From on high, he (God) sent FIRE, sent it down into my bones. He spread a net for my feet and turned me back. He made me desolate, faint all the day long. "
MY SINS have been bound into a yoke; by his hands they were woven together. They (the sins) have been hung on my neck, and the Lord has sapped my strength.
He has given me into the hands of those I cannot withstand. "The Lord has rejected all the warriors in my midst; he has summoned an army against me to crush my young men.
In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah.
There's that "winepress." And....
Psalm 32:1-5
Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them AND in whose spirit is no deceit. When I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. For
day and night your hand was heavy on me;
my strength was sapped as in the HEAT of summer. Then I acknowledged my sin to you
and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord." And you forgave the guilt of my sin.
Notice how David says that God's hand was heavy upon him "day and night." So, it's definitely a judgment of God, but in what way? When he kept silent about his sin, his "bones wasted away." Reminds me of the Lamentation scripture which says "God send fire to our bones" regarding the spiritual state of sin itself as a heavy yoke.
When I think about this "winepress" which is "outside the city" I think about
New Jerusalem. Here is a description:
Revelation 21:2-3
I saw the Holy City, the
new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared
as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look!
God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
The Holy City is not a place, but a symbol. It's the church, the people where God dwells. So the Lake of Fire "outside the city" is also a spiritual state, not a place. The description of this church as a city allows for the metaphor to contrast the LOF with the City as having an "outside." Inside is the tree of life and rivers of water, outside is a lake of fire where those who "love a lie" and are murders, whoremongers etc etc. To me, it rings of "wickedness burns like a fire...."
God dwells with his people. But outside....
Here is what the Holy City says:
Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the Bride say "come." And let him that heareth say "come." and let him that is athirst come. And whoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Why do they say that? Because the LOF is not God himself. They NEED God himself and so the Spirit and the Bride are offering what they need. The Gates of the city are open in Revelation "And the gates of it (New Jerusalem) shall NOT be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there." (Revelation:21:25-27).
Fire is outside the city. But water is inside the city. So to get the water, they must cross the threshold, the gates. The must stop being outside, and go inside. That is where the "tree of life" is, which is Christ dwelling among the people.
It's a 4 part series Seth. Your questions are properly answered in part 2. The phisical LOF is explained clearly.
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article10_lake_of_fire_pt2.html
part 1 deals with symbolism. It is a total change in the way people interpret revelations. It is not meant to be a panacea to the entire book. You can read articles and all of them will have something missing.
Your objection was that it is a composite article, which it declares at the top of the page. It also links to the source papers including Ray's link which you put in, but it also includes a number of sources not commonly known and Remnant have looked at the source material which is often a difficult read and put it into a format that is easier to read and frees people who would not usually search out a matter from laboriously searching for the pearls.
The main point is that all must face the fire and it is not a bad thing but it is the way in. The paper is on the lake of fire, not the water in the city as it is the fire that creates fear in many christians and is the source material for ECT. Water is not.
You should read the whole series.
:banana: :banana: :banana:
One of the reasons it is believed that the Lake of fire is related to God in some way is in the connection between Revelation 20:11-14 and Daniel 7:9-11, where the fire issues from El himself. In terms of the temple layout, the Set apart place would correspond to Jerusalem, the Most Set apart place to the temple in Jerusalem, and the bronze laver (elsewhere called the molten sea) to the Dead Sea, with a stream of fire leading into it from the threshold of the temple house. This stream, or river, is referred to as both fire and water, as each fittingly describes a particular function of the water, depending on the recipient of it, similar to the aroma of Moshiach being a life giving fragrance to believers, and yet a stench of death to unbelievers.
Ronen
Quote from: rrich7 on March 13, 2014, 09:49:52 PM
So this has always been the doomsday book or it is taught to be. I want to come to a better understanding of it without the worlds opinions on end times being inserted. The world does seem to be obsessed with apocalyptic happenings, the 666 chip, ect. However as I've learned with modern day Christianity I take everything with a grain of salt. I can't trust man to provide me their truths. So I come to my "church" (this hear forum) because Gods love abounds greatly here & maybe if it His will, one of you can be Gods vessel to help me gain better understanding.
Now I do not believe in the rapture. What are your takes from revelation in reference to the tribulation, The "ultimate" anti Christ, the mark of the beast, the mark for Gods saints & the anti Christ? Do you believe this to metaphorical or literal or a combination of both? Ultimately how does this all tie together and is the bible clear on exactly how it all goes down?
hi! :hiya:
I for one, do think the Book of Revelation is clear.. i also think of it not so much as God's wrath, but as simply the failure of man's ways (w/o God)
I can't even read the 'left behind' books.. tried.. couldn't do it.. the 'rapture' 1 thess 4 seems to me to say we meet the Lord at His coming, which is also the 1st resurrection, the resurrection of all believers.. so all believers meet Him at His coming and then His feet touch down on Mt of Olives-Zech 14:4.
2 thes 1:7 says He comes with fire and His angels...
Mt 24: 28-31 says "immediately aFter the tribulation of those days.. they will see.. the Son of man coming on the clouds.. He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four corners/directions of the world.."
The Book of Rev/Apoc is hidden for a time by at least 2 locks - the seals, so early in the book (chapter 6 and 7) are described as a blend - of two things:
- #1 - what each seal is when it is first broken open, and
- #2 - what each seal is at the very end, in very final days
In this way, things which occur very late on the planet are described here so early on in the book! Can you see how this would confuse the vision?
The other (imo) lock that I know of, is chapters 10, 12 ands 13 are inserts, [and perhaps 11 (sort of?)] smack dab in the middle of the book - rev 12 being a whole history.. and 13 also but not as long of a span..
After knowing those two things it's not as hard to understand.. and all it is really, is what we see in the world
All too often Bible prophecy buffs have thought all revelation characters are the same one character :0?
When I prayed to understand Bible prophecy, and coming things, a question came to my mind 'what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind
today?'
immediately following that came the thought 'evolution!' which has turned western civilization what used to be called Christendom on its ears! --- the false prophet / teaching, which does prophecy, as it is causing mankind to once again "look to the stars" like they did atop Babel Tower..
the trend toward global governance.. the 'big' beast of rev ch 13:1-10 - a world beast/body which once was, but its head didn't sign on after all so it expired, wasn't, but then was again.. it will be given authority/breath, by the second ('little') beast of Rev 13:11-18, a man or more specifically an office of man, whether in that office at the time, or had been in the office, this office is very clearly pinpointed, which I will tie in..
man's splitting of the atom.. big change in the world - this is described in Chapter 6 as the 6th seal, now remember what I mentioned about how the seals are described.. also is part symbolism.. or symbolism to represent events AND, is described in verse Rev 13:13, that 'little' beast/office..
(you do of course have to look at the verses to see it - the false prophet which began as a man, but then became more, a white smocked wizard bringing about many modern miracles and wonders, gave this office the capability, I am of course talking about that fire upon earth in the sight of men, called "fat man and little boy")
This thermo-nuclear warfare is paused for a while (Rev 7:1) while 144,000 of Israel are brought into the faith - 7:11-13?) - which is (imo) right where we are now. And when there is next thermo-nuclear
as warfare is when things escalate, and is the breaking open of the 7th seal, and the lining up of the 7 angels with 7 trumpets, including the "last trump"
and last but not least of the strongest influences upon mankind
today (many claiming to understand are stuck in yesteryear) - last but not least the increasingly going global, global economy. Babylon was the first coin economy.. if you read Rev chapters 17 and 18, it's really hard not to see.. it's called the "harlot" - the Greek word used and translated "harlot" is "pornos" - capitalism went extreme and also went pornos, and now 'she' "enchants all nations", "seducing" with her indecencies she uses to "sell! sell" everything under the sun.
the kings of the earth are in bed with her ("fornicating with") and she "has made the merchants wealthy, we can read their products right down to the "bodies of souls" or men/ppl in chapter 18.
In her hand is a
golden cup of her side effects (the perversions, abortions, dissolution of family and society, sex slave trade) and the nations will drink of it.. the side effects
She, man's final empire, will crash in one hour and all her high towers will fall in one day.. "the hail"/debris will be great", "come out of her my ppl".
She's actually next to last - as her forehead, or psyche is the last Rev character, which is all Babble, all untruth, responsible for ALL shed blood since Cain slew Abel, end chap 18.
note: the ten divisions ("kings", "toes") of the world beast / body in the final hour, will devour the harlot - socialism will finally devour capitalism (also strong trend)
I will be back in a little bit to talk about the (imo) clear signs provided to the ppl of God as things progress
Quote from: watchman1706 on March 18, 2014, 02:27:25 AM
Your objection was that it is a composite article, which it declares at the top of the page.
Yes I know. Where did I object to that? I just mentioned it in case anyone wanted to read the unedited versions.
I wouldn't call what I actually disagree with an "objection" since the connotation of that is that I am in some way offended. It's an alternative way of thinking about the fire with respect to Revelation and in what ways it is connected to OT scriptures.
QuoteThe main point is that all must face the fire and it is not a bad thing but it is the way in. The paper is on the lake of fire, not the water in the city as it is the fire that creates fear in many christians and is the source material for ECT. Water is not.
Yes, I know, and that is my point about discussion of New Jerusalem in relationship to the LOF. I think understanding the LOF is easier by understanding the entirety of what Revelation is talking about in those latter chapters, rather than focusing only on the fire itself. It completes the pattern and allows for a full understanding (IMHO)
Quote from: rrich7 on March 13, 2014, 09:49:52 PM
So this has always been the doomsday book or it is taught to be. I want to come to a better understanding of it without the worlds opinions on end times being inserted. The world does seem to be obsessed with apocalyptic happenings, the 666 chip, ect. However as I've learned with modern day Christianity I take everything with a grain of salt. I can't trust man to provide me their truths. So I come to my "church" (this hear forum) because Gods love abounds greatly here & maybe if it His will, one of you can be Gods vessel to help me gain better understanding.
Now I do not believe in the rapture. What are your takes from revelation in reference to the tribulation, The "ultimate" anti Christ, the mark of the beast, the mark for Gods saints & the anti Christ? Do you believe this to metaphorical or literal or a combination of both? Ultimately how does this all tie together and is the bible clear on exactly how it all goes down?
PART 2
...the signs for those alive when these things occur (whether during the lives of our children, grand children, or our own) are pretty obvious..
Now I know the Lord will protect, and "the Lord will provide" but perhaps one way of protecting and providing is through you and I doing some common sense things, and knowing the signs! ("no wants new wine but say the old" the familiar "is better")
Jesus said two definite things, which yes in the parallelism of Bible prophecy did refer (also) to 70 a.d. and I read the Christians in that day, heard, listened to and heeded (words of rev, post 70a.d.) and that razing is 70 a.d.
"when you see armies surround Jerusalem"
And,
"when you see the abomination which desolates" (which the Amplified Bible says is the 666 apparatus) "set up in the holy place" (Jerusalem?)
Then He concludes those verses with "let all Judea" (which we now are part of, yes? grafted in) "flee"
And here's another sign not quite as obvious, it would seem
Daniel 12:11,12 - (don't take my word for it, read it and do the math, there's no calendar marking the day, but these verses sound like a counting backwards from the final day)
verse 11 paraphrased "From the time that the" (place of) "daily sacrifice" (a place of daily prayers,etc. in
Jerusalem?) "is removed" (some versions say taken away) from that time "until the abomination of desolation is set up, shall be 3 (Hebrew) years and 7 (Hebrew 30 day) months" a Hebrew leap year??
verse 12 "Happy, the one who waits, and comes to 45 days later."
What happy event occurs 45 days after the abomination is set up? and 3 years, eight and 1/2 months after the daily (place of) sacrifice is removed?
Here's a cross reference about the place of daily sacrifice - Mt 24:1,2 - when the Lord and disciples came out of the Temple, the disciples said "Lord see all these things?" the temple and temple complex
- and Jesus replied, "I tell you not-one-stone-shall remain atop another"
Yet the Wailing Wall a part of a wall of that Temple complex, still stands with plenty of rocks atop another.. (don't take my word for it, read what He said :)
Though I think things may be dicey and there may be "shortage" and drought,
I think the tribulation lasts 45 days, with what's called "the great tribulation" being
the last "ten days" when "cannot buy or sell" escalates, to "will be killed" Jihadists compatriot with socialism - [the dove confederate with the vulture; their common enemy, those who are preventing the dream and agenda.. (christians/conservatives) who need to be "taken out of the way" which well intentioned, but confused ones, believe refers to a verse proving the secret rapture / secret coming of Jesus.]
Drought? - REv 12:16 & Luke 23:28,30,31
If you don't believe me, or understand, that's okay, I've yet to come across any one who does.. which is a GReaT mystery to me!
Peace and Blessings! :hiya:
I think there was one more point i wanted to make.. but it escapes me at the moment.. oh! the 7 years which the 'left behind' theory holds to, is, of course from Daniel chapter 9, verse 27 "and he will confirm the covenant" (Strong's #1285 "treaty, contract, league") "for one week" of years, a sort of Caesar, or el presidio, from the long line or roots of roman type government with senates, courts, etc.. roman architecture..
Check out the cross reference between the world beast/body of Rev 13:1 with Daniel 7:7 and 19! And notice how Daniel's description also coincides with the "iron" and "brass" of Daniel 2:31-33, the revealing of the meaning of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream (statue) - Bible historians agree the brass (or bronze) was Greece and the iron, Rome.
The (world) beast as described by Daniel has "iron teeth" (iron columns, surely??) and "brass claws which breaks up what the iron doesn't crush".. Greek philosophy/humanism breaks up the cultures of the nations.. the last days (world) empire is Graeco/Roman in nature.. with roman styled politics, and Greek styled culture, of art, drama, etc, etc. And in late days is iron/western and clay/not western.. the oes of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue.. ten toes, coinciding of course with the "ten kings"/divisions of the final hour of the (world) beast/empire/governing.
feel free to message me, if any of this makes any sense to you, or if it doesn't, :laughing7: :icon_jokercolor: I'm not always around here.. but do most writing here - http://www.bubblews.com/account/31685-flowerchilde
God bless
..it's my belief the Bible indicates no humans go to the LOF
http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/same-word-for-both-groups/msg169791/#msg169791
:cloud9: :dsunny:
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 18, 2014, 03:04:28 AM
One of the reasons it is believed that the Lake of fire is related to God in some way is in the connection between Revelation 20:11-14 and Daniel 7:9-11, where the fire issues from El himself.
I totally agree, but I see it in a specific way. The fire DOES come from God, but I do not believe the fire in Revelation is God himself. Here is what I mean:
2 Peter 2:6
And (God) turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned (katakrino - judged) them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
The fire came from heaven right? But watch how Paul speaks about "wrath revealed from heaven"
Romans 1:18,24,27
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.....Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 27 And they received
in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Wrath was revealed from heaven in Sodom and Gomorrah in the form of fire, but I believe that to be symbolic of what Lamentations said about fire in my previous post: "
From on high,
he (God) sent FIRE, sent it down into my bones.... MY SINS have been bound into a yoke... In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah"
From on high, God sent fire, just like how Paul was talking about it: For God turned them over to "the sinful desires of their hearts" to "recieve in themselves the due penalty for their error." It all works together. So getting back to 2 Peter 2 and his example of Sodom and Gomorrah:
2 Peter 2:12
But these (the wicked), as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not;
and shall utterly perish (Greek - kataphtheiro - spoil entirely, be depraved) in their OWN corruption; And shall receive the
reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
What Peter is saying they shall receive in the "Day of the Lord" (which is what he was talking about) is symbolized in Revelation as a Lake of Fire.
There are many different uses of fire as a metaphor, but when I look at the pattern of Jerusalem, mount Zion, and Gehenna below,
Isaiah 4
2In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. 3And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: 4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. 5And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. 6And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.
God is a consuming fire, yes. And also wickedness is like a fire.
That is why he sets a tabernacle in Jerusalem for SHADE in the daytime FROM THE HEAT and for a place of refuge from the storm and rain. New Jerusalem is for the overcomer, so what about outside the city, where the winepress is, where smoke rises? What of that fire?
Whereas the "fiery trials" experienced by the House of God are for building up, there is also a fire that breaks down, for God "gives grace to the humble but resisteth the proud."
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy (appolumi - lose) both soul and body in Gehenna.
Gehenna is a metaphor of course, not a place, as James 3:6 shows. It is a state of spiritual destruction, one that it unsurprisingly given by God for the purpose of making humble.
Ecclesiastes 1
13And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled, brought low) therewith.
In the OT, when Israel turned to false idols, God turned them over to Babylon. He gave them over to MORE IDOLS. Why would it be any different on a spiritual level?
Quote from: Seth on March 15, 2014, 02:27:31 AM
I noticed it's a composite article, and saw some L. Ray Smith paragraphs in there. To go directly to the source, I recommend L. Ray's page: http://www.bible-truths.com
Thank you so much for this link. :thumbsup:
No problem :Peace2:
Quote from: Seth on March 18, 2014, 06:00:21 PM
There are many different uses of fire as a metaphor, but when I look at the pattern of Jerusalem, mount Zion, and Gehenna below,
Isaiah 4
2In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. 3And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: 4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. 5And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. 6And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.
God is a consuming fire, yes. And also wickedness is like a fire.
That is why he sets a tabernacle in Jerusalem for SHADE in the daytime FROM THE HEAT and for a place of refuge from the storm and rain. New Jerusalem is for the overcomer, so what about outside the city, where the winepress is, where smoke rises? What of that fire?
Whereas the "fiery trials" experienced by the House of God are for building up, there is also a fire that breaks down, for God "gives grace to the humble but resisteth the proud."
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy (appolumi - lose) both soul and body in Gehenna.
Gehenna is a metaphor of course, not a place, as James 3:6 shows. It is a state of spiritual destruction, one that it unsurprisingly given by God for the purpose of making humble.
Ecclesiastes 1
13And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (ra - evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised (humbled, brought low) therewith.
In the OT, when Israel turned to false idols, God turned them over to Babylon. He gave them over to MORE IDOLS. Why would it be any different on a spiritual level?
Thanks for the KISS (Kept it Scripturally Simple) kiss=idiom "give homage to the Son" I agree with all that you shared in this reply. God has graced you with not only much scriptural truth, but also great writing skills.
and it fits my very strong opinion that physical realities reveal/teach spiritual truths ... sorry, don't want to go off OP...
Thank you Anna :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on March 18, 2014, 04:24:39 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on March 18, 2014, 03:04:28 AM
One of the reasons it is believed that the Lake of fire is related to God in some way is in the connection between Revelation 20:11-14 and Daniel 7:9-11, where the fire issues from El himself.
I totally agree, but I see it in a specific way. The fire DOES come from God, but I do not believe the fire in Revelation is God himself. Here is what I mean:
2 Peter 2:6
And (God) turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned (katakrino - judged) them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
The fire came from heaven right? But watch how Paul speaks about "wrath revealed from heaven"
Romans 1:18,24,27
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.....Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 27 And they received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Wrath was revealed from heaven in Sodom and Gomorrah in the form of fire, but I believe that to be symbolic of what Lamentations said about fire in my previous post: "From on high, he (God) sent FIRE, sent it down into my bones.... MY SINS have been bound into a yoke... In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah"
From on high, God sent fire, just like how Paul was talking about it: For God turned them over to "the sinful desires of their hearts" to "recieve in themselves the due penalty for their error." It all works together. So getting back to 2 Peter 2 and his example of Sodom and Gomorrah:
2 Peter 2:12
But these (the wicked), as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish (Greek - kataphtheiro - spoil entirely, be depraved) in their OWN corruption;
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
What Peter is saying they shall receive in the "Day of the Lord" (which is what he was talking about) is symbolized in Revelation as a Lake of Fire.
I understand better what you mean now. Thanks. :)
Quote from: Seth on March 18, 2014, 03:15:43 AM
Quote from: watchman1706 on March 18, 2014, 02:27:25 AM
Your objection was that it is a composite article, which it declares at the top of the page.
Yes I know. Where did I object to that? I just mentioned it in case anyone wanted to read the unedited versions.
I wouldn't call what I actually disagree with an "objection" since the connotation of that is that I am in some way offended. It's an alternative way of thinking about the fire with respect to Revelation and in what ways it is connected to OT scriptures.
QuoteThe main point is that all must face the fire and it is not a bad thing but it is the way in. The paper is on the lake of fire, not the water in the city as it is the fire that creates fear in many christians and is the source material for ECT. Water is not.
Yes, I know, and that is my point about discussion of New Jerusalem in relationship to the LOF. I think understanding the LOF is easier by understanding the entirety of what Revelation is talking about in those latter chapters, rather than focusing only on the fire itself. It completes the pattern and allows for a full understanding (IMHO)
No Seth. You were taking a cheap shot, and it's not the first time I have seen you do so. Someone puts up an article and you act like the site critic and often write an un-looked for or un-warranted commentary that often has a tone littered with "oh this is just" or "it is someone else's". No one asks for that opinionated critique. You just offer it up freely. Often one of the first posters and this brings up 2 problems IMO.
1. It dirties the waters for the following way that others will look at the information after because you have just belittled it.
2. Because you have posted so quickly, it shows me that you could not possibly have done your due diligence in studying the article. These articles are 60-70 pages long. You could have only given it a glancing or cursory look at the paper. Not really good enough to make your critical comments.
In the future, stop doing that. Let people make up their own minds and if you want to add a point or an article then feel free to do so, but not by undermining someone else. That's just low brow.
:punish: :footmouth: :doh:
QuoteNo Seth. You were taking a cheap shot, and it's not the first time I have seen you do so. Someone puts up an article and you act like the site critic and often write an un-looked for or un-warranted commentary that often has a tone littered with "oh this is just" or "it is someone else's". No one asks for that opinionated critique. You just offer it up freely. Often one of the first posters and this brings up 2 problems IMO.
This is a forum watchman1706. You posted an article. I responded to the article, noting also that I agreed with much of it. Forums are created for discussion. You can't make rules to shut other people up.
Quote1. It dirties the waters for the following way that others will look at the information after because you have just belittled it.
Excuse me, but I said that I agreed with much of it. People are free to read the article if they want, but I disagree with a few points. That's the point of a discussion, to talk things out.
Quote2. Because you have posted so quickly, it shows me that you could not possibly have done your due diligence in studying the article. These articles are 60-70 pages long. You could have only given it a glancing or cursory look at the paper. Not really good enough to make your critical comments.
In the future, stop doing that. Let people make up their own minds and if you want to add a point or an article then feel free to do so, but not by undermining someone else. That's just low brow.
This is your own assumption and you are acting very defensive as if you would like to shut me up. I noted what I agreed with and what I disagreed with. That's not undermining, that's discussion.
Actually Seth, your post was mainly negative. You pointed out the articles flaws. That's not discussion. I've seen you do it a number of times before so I think I am on safe ground making certain assumptions. I simply called you out on it. Maybe it would behoove you to reflect on that and see it as a learning opportunity.
People come to forums like this to search and discover. We who are older and perhaps more mature and more versed in universal salvation and all of it's ramifications should be held to a higher standard. If we have the greater truth then we should reflect that in our character. Have more of the fruits of the spirit. It's not enough just to have more knowledge if it is not worked out on the fleshy tables of our hearts. What I know means nothing if it is not a part of me and I am not a better witness for it being a part of me.
That is why I don't respond to a great deal I have seen on this forum and others that bears no resemblance to the truth or scripture. I hold my peace because we are all at different levels. Being right is not more important than acting right.
There were a number of different tacks that you could have used to make your point that would have been more beneficial. That is what I am referring to. I don't know you personally, but on a media format that can be abrupt and curt, we can all be better communicators. Don't you think?
:Chinscratch:
Quote from: watchman1706 on March 19, 2014, 07:00:18 AM
Actually Seth, your post was mainly negative. You pointed out the articles flaws. That's not discussion. I've seen you do it a number of times before so I think I am on safe ground making certain assumptions. I simply called you out on it. Maybe it would behoove you to reflect on that and see it as a learning opportunity.
Do you see how condescending you sound? Maybe you should go back and read all my posts, and you will see that I did complement the article, and noted where I agreed. BTW, that's not even really a requirement or prerequisite. I don't have to agree with any of it. I was simply being fair by including where I did agree.
QuotePeople come to forums like this to search and discover. We who are older and perhaps more mature and more versed in universal salvation and all of it's ramifications should be held to a higher standard. If we have the greater truth then we should reflect that in our character. Have more of the fruits of the spirit. It's not enough just to have more knowledge if it is not worked out on the fleshy tables of our hearts. What I know means nothing if it is not a part of me and I am not a better witness for it being a part of me.
That is why I don't respond to a great deal I have seen on this forum and others that bears no resemblance to the truth or scripture. I hold my peace because we are all at different levels. Being right is not more important than acting right.
There were a number of different tacks that you could have used to make your point that would have been more beneficial. That is what I am referring to. I don't know you personally, but on a media format that can be abrupt and curt, we can all be better communicators. Don't you think?
Sure we could all be better communicators. But I have also learned that no matter what you do, someone will always find offense. I am not perfect, by any means, but I do mean well. In this particular case, I do not believe I was not acting right in simply disagreeing with part of the article you posted and voicing it. That is what a forum is for, discussion. Some people agree and disagree.
You responded to objections I didn't make, and totally ignored the objections I did make showing me that you are more motivated by annoyance that I dared to provide an alternate viewpoint to your article, causing you to ignore what I actually said.
In any case, this thread is way of course now, the subject being your annoyance of me and my communication style. This thread is about Revelation, not what a pill Seth is.
Quote2. Because you have posted so quickly, it shows me that you could not possibly have done your due diligence in studying the article. These articles are 60-70 pages long. You could have only given it a glancing or cursory look at the paper. Not really good enough to make your critical comments.
What's interesting is that about 3 people posted before me, yet I don't see you accusing them of having not read the paper. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2014, 02:48:21 PM
..it's my belief the Bible indicates no humans go to the LOF
http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/same-word-for-both-groups/msg169791/#msg169791
:cloud9: :dsunny:
Here are some scriptures that indicate that people will be in the LOF (and actually I believe a manifestation of the LOF is among us today and all throughout history going back to Adam who brought death into the world)
Revelation 21
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But
the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Also..
Revelation 14
8 And there followed another angel, saying,
Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the
wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If
any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up
for ever and ever (eis aion aion - unto the age of the age): and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
I believe that Babylon represents the flesh, or the carnal mind, or sin, generally anything contrary to God and his way. So I believe the fire represents the destruction within that "wrath of fornication."
I see the "wrath of her fornication" to be as what Paul talked about, "the wrath of God is revealed against the unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness....for this cause he gave them over to the sinful desires of their hearts" (paraphrase of Romans 1)
That's why I asked the question in my last post: If God turned Israel over to Babylon in the OT, why would he not turn them over to spiritual Babylon and the "wrath of her fornications?"