Okay, some feel this passage where Jesus is crying out on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" and they believe it's to mean "my family, my family". I'd like to have those of you who see it this way to expound on that a little. I went back to it and the original language still says he's crying out "God" and not family.
And even in the context, the next verse states that people who heard him say it thought he was crying out for Elijah. Which would raise the question, did they not understand what language he was speaking? If he stated "my God" how would they then assume he was crying out for Elijah?
The original word for Elijah is Eliyah, according to strongs. And in Matthew 27:46 Jesus is literally saying And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Which I suppose "Eli, Eli" could sound like "Eliyah". But how do you go from that to reading it that he's calling out "my family, my family"?
I guess I'm not quite seeing it.
Hi Nathan,
Here are a couple of articles I found that seems to make more sense as to what Jesus was saying. I don't know about the "family" part but I just cannot see Jesus asking the Father why he had forsaken him.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/why_hast_thou_forsaken_me.htm
http://wahiduddin.net/words/forsaken.htm
CHB
:cloud9: I replied to this on the other thread just now Nathan.....
Thanks CHB . . .very enlightening!!
I agree with CHB. Jesus is the only person to have ever fully and completely obeyed God in everything he did, even to the point of dying on the cross. If, after enduring the greatest act of faithfulness ever imagined, God turned His back on Jesus, what does that then say about He will treat us? If you look at all of Psalm 22, it is actually a psalm of hope and confidence that God will not abandon. As a side note, another popular notion is that God did forsake Jesus on the cross because God cannot be in the presence of sin. I would challenge that by saying where else could He be? If that is true, then the Incarnation could have never happened. No, instead God is the Great Physician who descends in the darkness and sickest of places to bring healing and light.
Jesus walked completely in the spirit,in doing so he would never die....hence why God(spirit) had to seperate himself in order for the death experience to occur.Now He could show the victory over death for everyone to see.
blessings :icon_king:
God did not forsake Jesus. The scriptures were quite straight forward; "I will never forsake you or leave you"
Jesus knew this, so
1. Jesus' faith was misplaced
2. If God would lie to Jesus, what stops Him from lying to us sinners
3. The Bible is a contridiction
4. The Bible is fraudulant
5. We shouldn't trust God, for God betrayed even His own
or maybe....just maybe...we need to know the scriptures more.
G1459 egkataleipo eng-kat-al-i'-po
from G1722 and G2641;
to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a
bad sense) to desert:--forsake, leave.
(in a good sense) is the key here.
Psalm 22
1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will." (Matthew 26:39)
He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done." (verse 42)
Now paraphrasing this: "My God, My God ..."
"My Father, your power will save me, for into your open hands I commit my Spirit; It is finished!"
(Having said this He took His last breath in faith)
He was taken beyond the jurisdiction of the law, as the "high" priest, judge, and teacher of all humanity by virtue of the promise. The faithful witness of the Gospel, concealed within the tree of life. The SPIRITS counsel and oath is eternal. And Christ is the mediator of the Covenant, as I see it. Although many thought that he called for Eli'jah, they just are not sure, historical and linguistically speaking; a mixture of Hebrew and Aramaic spoken within the difficulties of breathing.
Personally, I do not believe that He felt abandoned, nor was He ever forsaken.
" For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him ."
peacemaker
He had to experience everything we experience. Who here has never felt forsaken by God?
Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Jonah 2
1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Quote from: Molly on May 06, 2010, 06:06:30 AM
He had to experience everything we experience. Who here has never felt forsaken by God?
That is as I see it as well, and beyond that I believe He was a symbol of all mankind and cried out in
proxy for every human who has ever lived. Of course He (and we) have never actually been forsaken and were never in any but temporal danger, a paper tiger in the big picture.
Quote from: Molly on May 06, 2010, 06:06:30 AM
Who here has never felt forsaken by God?
Faith is that which rises above our feelings; to know that the Spirit is always present.
"In the valley of the shadow of death .... Thou art with me."peacemaker
Faith is a unique characteristic that is a trait which actually only comes from God. It's not a natural function such as seeing, smelling, tasting . . . each of us began with a "measure" of faith that God gives. The only way to give God pleasure is to exercise the faith that he's given us. It's even among the gifts of the spirit. Part of me "wants" to see Jesus on the cross becoming emotionally numb and lost to the point he cries out to God "why have you left me?"
And until yesterday, I've always believed and accepted that's what has happened. But, over the past 8+ years of my life, since being freed from religious mindsets, I've learned that what I've learned up to now can only benefit me most, if I hang on to what I've learned loosely, and allow new understandings to sprout up and let the old ones either blend in with the new and become one, or simply appreciate them for bringing me to where I am, but also letting them go to make way for other things I can't enter into if I still hang on to them.
So I ask myself, pertaining to this specific issue at hand, which brings me the most encouragement? Which one gives me the greatest rush? The side that sees Jesus in a totally human state where he's borderline delirious and barely coherent, perhaps even babbling meaningless words and phrases? Or, the side that sees him, even in the midst of the greatest torture imaginable, he's alert, still purposefully making declarations which fulfill prophecies concerning his purpose and plan.
And right up to the end, making a declaration to all within hearing his words, then and now, that even though he's been beaten beyond recognition, tortured beyond comprehension and crucified in front of the entire world, at the end of all of that, one of the last things he utters is that "this" was why he was preserved.
At this point, in the God-given faith within me, I choose to see the latter. No condemnation for those who still choose to see him as a mortal. I totally believe he was mortal, but I also believe he was also God. One manifested pain, the other manifests purpose. And all though the cross brought his physical body much pain, the crucifixion also manifested his purpose and in that purpose he let us know "this" was why he really came. Resurrection was the plan. Death was inevitable because without it, resurrection could not manifest.
Jesus was teaching psalms 22 and proving it was about him, i dont for one second beleive Father forsook him as tradition teaches.
psalms 22......WOWZA!!
peace
chuck
Quote from: Nathan on May 06, 2010, 04:33:46 PM
Faith is a unique characteristic that is a trait which actually only comes from God. It's not a natural function such as seeing, smelling, tasting . . . each of us began with a "measure" of faith that God gives. The only way to give God pleasure is to exercise the faith that he's given us. It's even among the gifts of the spirit. Part of me "wants" to see Jesus on the cross becoming emotionally numb and lost to the point he cries out to God "why have you left me?"
And until yesterday, I've always believed and accepted that's what has happened. But, over the past 8+ years of my life, since being freed from religious mindsets, I've learned that what I've learned up to now can only benefit me most, if I hang on to what I've learned loosely, and allow new understandings to sprout up and let the old ones either blend in with the new and become one, or simply appreciate them for bringing me to where I am, but also letting them go to make way for other things I can't enter into if I still hang on to them.
So I ask myself, pertaining to this specific issue at hand, which brings me the most encouragement? Which one gives me the greatest rush? The side that sees Jesus in a totally human state where he's borderline delirious and barely coherent, perhaps even babbling meaningless words and phrases? Or, the side that sees him, even in the midst of the greatest torture imaginable, he's alert, still purposefully making declarations which fulfill prophecies concerning his purpose and plan.
And right up to the end, making a declaration to all within hearing his words, then and now, that even though he's been beaten beyond recognition, tortured beyond comprehension and crucified in front of the entire world, at the end of all of that, one of the last things he utters is that "this" was why he was preserved.
At this point, in the God-given faith within me, I choose to see the latter. No condemnation for those who still choose to see him as a mortal. I totally believe he was mortal, but I also believe he was also God. One manifested pain, the other manifests purpose. And all though the cross brought his physical body much pain, the crucifixion also manifested his purpose and in that purpose he let us know "this" was why he really came. Resurrection was the plan. Death was inevitable because without it, resurrection could not manifest.
:cloud9: :thumbsup: I would only add; He said I say what I hear my Father say. All seeds bear fruit after their own kind. The Father was this spiritual Seed's "kind".
The Spirit in us must divide flesh from spirit, even the flesh of Jesus the man, because the flesh profiteth nothing.
THEN, is the spiritual Word that was made visible flesh speaking, "When you have seen ME (spiritual Seed within the flesh), you have seen the Father", clearly understood. Blessings....
Hi Nathan,
The first part of your post reminded me of this verse. (John 3:34) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God GIVETH NOT THE SPIRIT BY MEASURE UNTO HIM.
(Rom. 12:3) Last part of verse. according as God hath DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH.
The way I see these two verses is. God gives each of us the measure of faith he wants us to have but with Jesus he gave the full amount. Therefore Jesus had more faith than any of us which he needed to carry out his commission.
CHB
Card,
"When you have seen ME (spiritual Seed within the flesh), you have seen the Father,"
also, can clearly indicate that He is the Savior of all mankind.
Thanks for that!
:cloud9: Amen......this is also why they didn't know who it was at the tomb, or the two on the road until He SPOKE. They had not received the HG yet to be able to perceive the "form" of the FATHER within the flesh man Jesus. He can only be "seen" thru the Spirit revealing Him.
They had HEARD Him, but didn't know WHO it was that spoke to them, because no man has/had seen the Father (and lived to/by his own ways anymore) and lived.
This is also why He said don't say He's there, or say He's over here, (as the flesh man Jesus again), because He's hid Himself in the last place man would look.........IN MAN. Blessings....
which makes him Lord of the living and dead, those awake and those that sleep.
all mankind.....
This is just the way I see things so no one has to agree but I would be interested in any feedback. I think of Spirit as behaving the way water or electricity behaves.
We know that Jesus had the fulness of the Godhead bodily and also that he was given the Spirit without measure [that is, limitless access to the Spirit]. So, for instance, when the bleeding woman touches the hem of his robe, he feels the Spirit leave him but he obviously has no control over it because he asks, Who touched me? Then, he tells the woman her faith has healed her. I see this touching of his robe as a sort of making an electrical connection with a perfect conductor [Jesus]. The woman is able to make that connection because of her faith. The Spirit flows through Jesus to the woman just like when we flip on a light switch.
So here is the question. Is there a way to cut off the flow of Spirit from ourselves? I would argue that sin would do it,-- if we are immersed in sin, then we see a hardened heart which is not able to conduct Spirit [not a good conductor in an electrical sense].
I do think that for a moment there on the cross, Jesus was cut off from Spirit, cut off by the sin he was carrying for us, which is why he yells out, Why have you forsaken me?
It is the same cry made by the LORD God to Adam in the garden after Adam has eaten from the forbidden tree:
9... Where art thou?
--Gen 3
Well, we can apparently "quench" the spirit, otherwise we'd not be instructed to refrain from doing it. And I think there's also a passage that speaks about a person has the ability to control when to release the spirit and when to hold it in for the opportune moment.
And there's also the place where because of the doubting minds around him, Jesus could not perform the miracles in his home town like he could elsewhere . . .which I guess answers for me the on-going question as to why you see, or so it seems, that there are greater miracles going on in a mission field in some 3rd world country than in our own backyard. This nation seems to rely mostly on it's knowledge of God rather than living in revelation from Him.
Quote from: Nathan on May 06, 2010, 10:36:08 PM
which I guess answers for me the on-going question as to why you see, or so it seems, that there are greater miracles going on in a mission field in some 3rd world country than in our own backyard. This nation seems to rely mostly on it's knowledge of God rather than living in revelation from Him.
Nathan, being sincere here, but considering these 3rd world countries that have had mission work in them for decades are still 3rd world countries I wonder what greater miracles are you talking about. I am not demeaning the mission work that goes on in these countries but just wondering what you see as a greater miracle.
For me, I observe the world and even my own life with all the worst things that I can recall and I still would not want to have been born in a 3rd world country. I do not yearn for experiences because I have already been blessed abundantly with them just by being born in the US .
Molly I see what you're saying.
When Jesus died, He sent His Spirit UP.
Up where?
He was one with God so where is up from there?
He said: No one takes My Life; I lay it down.
So for 3 days it was in a dark place. Is that us?
Is He still in the tomb?
How could He be cut off from the spirit when He and the Father are One?
Can God cut Himself off?
It's mind boggling because all these questions are answered by both yes and no.
It seems that there are different answers to questions that refer to either flesh or spirit.
But, when the questions are about Christ, the answer is both.
He is the overlap, The God-Man.
The Harmonious Vibration of Creation.
Truth or Tradition?
The bottom line is that Jesus could not have been saying that the SPIRIT had rejected or abandoned Him. That would only surmount to a complete lack of faith within the OT prophesies, promises, and that of the faithful witness, himself. We are meant to find encouragement when our own time comes to be confronted with the reality of what it means to walk through the valley of the shadow of our own death. Although it may damage the religious views of many, the penal substitution is a fallacy. He did not carry our sin, but endured the inequities and injustices; derived from within the hearts and laws of men themselves. A tedious repetition within the worldly churches.
"Death is grasping at the shadow; not living life within the Spirit of truth."
The SPIRIT is passionately sorrowful or troubled, NOT wrathful.
peaceful warrior (aka; peacemaker :mshock: )
Quote from: PMThe bottom line is that Jesus could not have been saying that the SPIRIT had rejected or abandoned Him. That would only surmount to a complete lack of faith within the OT prophesies, promises, and that of the faithful witness, himself.
Isn't that what death is? How did Adam die in the day?
... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.--Gen 2
Didn't Jesus have to reverse what Adam had done? Walk in his shoes with a better outcome? He is our kinsman-Redeemer.
he will be gracious and say, 'Rescue him from the grave, for I have found a ransom for his life.'--Job 33:24
Adam did not die from a lack of faith, but a lack of obedience, for that's exactly how he was found — lacking.
Jesus did not reverse what Adam had done, more so,
The Second Adam DID what the first COULD NOT.
He is THE new Creation.
NOT a revised version of the first!
What is death to self?
If our aim is to walk in the Spirit of the day, we need to go through the processes of purging ourselves of pride (selfishness) and self-will, including many other things that cause us to think only about ourselves; survival mode of the fleshly mind. This processes will lead us on a journey one step at a time, that will involve humility and the strengthening of our faith. And each step is a new journey. Ultimately, resulting in holiness. Although we have never been truly separated.
Footprints in the Sand
One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord. Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand. Sometimes there were two sets of footprints, other times there was one only. This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life, when I was suffering from anguish, sorrow or defeat, I could see only one set of footprints, so I said to the Lord, "You promised me Lord, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life there has only been one set of footprints in the sand. Why, when I needed you most, have you not been there for me?"
The Lord replied, "The years when you have seen only one set of footprints, my child, is when I carried you."
Mary Stevenson, 1936.
"...for when I am weak, then am I strong." (2 Corinthians 12:10)
Yes, humility rules the Kingdom of God.
The foolish things of man are treasures to the Lord.
Who is rich among you?
The Book of James speaks of Hope.
But back to the original post.
We were made in His Image. Agreed?
The Lord God has many names, natures, that He uses to reveal Himself to us.
When "God" made Adam, in the plural of His wonder, Jesus at the cross with His enduring breath called out to the same from whence we ALL came.
Remember?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cel_O-qy0i0
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 07, 2010, 04:08:18 AM
Adam did not die from a lack of faith, but a lack of obedience, for that's exactly how he was found — lacking.
Jesus did not reverse what Adam had done, more so,
The Second Adam DID what the first COULD NOT.
He is THE new Creation.
NOT a revised version of the first!
Isn't a lack of obedience a lack of faith? Jesus starts his ministry where we last saw Adam, outside the gate.
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. --Mat 4
He meets with the devil and overcomes him with the word of God [as opposed to Adam who stayed mute.]
He calls himself the Son of Adam.
And he even wears Adam's crown of thorns on the cross.
...cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;--Gen 3
Jesus is leading us into a new creation, the firstborn of many brothers, but first he reverses the curse brought down on all creation by Adam.
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. --Gen 3
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
With all due respect, and I do value your words immensely.
Jesus started His ministry at the age of 12.
The Lord Jesus was never outside the gate for He is the Way.
The Lord Jesus was driven into the wilderness to be temped by the wares of the world AFTER the Lord God declares how pleased He is with Him.
He overcomes the devil within Himself, for He absolutely could not fail, perfect is as perfect does.
He is the son of Adam, Flesh made whole.
As I have overcome... I in You, You in Me, We in Them.
He has, is, and continues to, establish His presence wherever it may go, on this earth and hereafter making us co-creaters within the Godhead Almighty.
Death is a moot point for the Sons of God.
Quote from: Beloved ServantThe Lord Jesus was never outside the gate for He is the Way
Well, yes, he is the Way, but as such, he presents himself to those outside the gate, which is where his ministry takes place. It's the sick who need a doctor, not the healthy. It is outside the gate where the sacrifice is burned.
.
7And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.--Isa 35
11For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
--Heb 13
So, it's not to die for Him, we can do that, who is brave enough to live for Him?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=X43XXpItGk0
Remember?
Amen Molly.
He brought the flesh into Glory for the joy set before Him.
Now, Molly, my dear and loving sister in the Lord and in the wonder of God —
I'll let you say, in one word — What is the Glory of God ???
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 07, 2010, 05:39:31 AM
So, it's not to die for Him, we can do that, who is brave enough to live for Him?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=X43XXpItGk0
Remember?
Yes. Amen.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 07, 2010, 05:52:15 AM
Amen Molly.
He brought the flesh into Glory for the joy set before Him.
Now, Molly, my dear and loving sister in the Lord and in the wonder of God —
I'll let you say, in one word — What is the Glory of God ???
Jesus.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. --John 1
And the Greeks said:
We shall see Jesus:
And He said?
Christ.
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 07, 2010, 06:02:19 AM
And the Greeks said:
We shall see Jesus:
And He said?
"Sir," they said, "we would like to see Jesus." 22 Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.
23 Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds
WE, are the Glory of God!
Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation.
WE are His pride and joy, the Masterpiece of Wisdom.
Within this knowledge, the blessedness of Christ Jesus, the new creation has none of the conceit of Adam.
There is no
Avarice
Hubris
or
Pride of life.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on May 07, 2010, 12:55:44 AM
Quote from: Nathan on May 06, 2010, 10:36:08 PM
which I guess answers for me the on-going question as to why you see, or so it seems, that there are greater miracles going on in a mission field in some 3rd world country than in our own backyard. This nation seems to rely mostly on it's knowledge of God rather than living in revelation from Him.
Nathan, being sincere here, but considering these 3rd world countries that have had mission work in them for decades are still 3rd world countries I wonder what greater miracles are you talking about. I am not demeaning the mission work that goes on in these countries but just wondering what you see as a greater miracle.
For me, I observe the world and even my own life with all the worst things that I can recall and I still would not want to have been born in a 3rd world country. I do not yearn for experiences because I have already been blessed abundantly with them just by being born in the US .
Greater miracles as in miraculous healings, people coming to Christ by the tens of thousands. I have a cousin who has a calling for India. Several times he's come to my church and shared testimonies and he's brought leaders from India with him who've seen arms grow, legs mend, sores fall off and it's on a regular basis.
I wasn't stating that the 3rd world countries have more comfortable living conditions than ours, better political establishments, stronger protection and all that. All that I was referring to was that when dealing with your traditional missionary ministries, there's a greater manifestation of miracles in thsoe areas where people are not already religionized. That was the only point I was making with that.
:cloud9: It's true Nathan. They didn't have anyone standing over them for generations telling them what Jesus COULDN'T do, WOULDN'T do "today", ect. Blessings....
Quote from: Nathan on May 07, 2010, 03:25:59 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on May 07, 2010, 12:55:44 AM
Quote from: Nathan on May 06, 2010, 10:36:08 PM
which I guess answers for me the on-going question as to why you see, or so it seems, that there are greater miracles going on in a mission field in some 3rd world country than in our own backyard. This nation seems to rely mostly on it's knowledge of God rather than living in revelation from Him.
Nathan, being sincere here, but considering these 3rd world countries that have had mission work in them for decades are still 3rd world countries I wonder what greater miracles are you talking about. I am not demeaning the mission work that goes on in these countries but just wondering what you see as a greater miracle.
For me, I observe the world and even my own life with all the worst things that I can recall and I still would not want to have been born in a 3rd world country. I do not yearn for experiences because I have already been blessed abundantly with them just by being born in the US .
Greater miracles as in miraculous healings, people coming to Christ by the tens of thousands. I have a cousin who has a calling for India. Several times he's come to my church and shared testimonies and he's brought leaders from India with him who've seen arms grow, legs mend, sores fall off and it's on a regular basis.
I wasn't stating that the 3rd world countries have more comfortable living conditions than ours, better political establishments, stronger protection and all that. All that I was referring to was that when dealing with your traditional missionary ministries, there's a greater manifestation of miracles in thsoe areas where people are not already religionized. That was the only point I was making with that.
Well Nathan I can only say that I have spent my entire religious life hearing stories of missionaries from other places that have no real documentation for such things and we are just expected to take someones word for it. I have also watch 100's of people spiritually crippled because what they saw as a miracle in their life was downplayed because something "Greater" happened.
You can talk about 10's of 1000's of people accepting Christ and limbs growing back, but I know that I have seen as great a miracle in a kids life that a WHOLE church seen as insignificant who believed he would never pick up a bible.
He did one day, he stood up in church, and said he woke up one morning and decided to read the bible. Hardly anyone clapped, why? Because before him was everyone giving their "Greater testamony".
Miracles are not greater any where. Gifts of God are universally equal everywhere.
What people say is greater, though, is another matter.
:cloud9: In a way, I'm my own "mission field" because I was not trained up to believe, either. Yet the Lord saw fit to do 4 miracle healings on me, which ARE documented by specialist's reports.
I've seen many healings take place over the years with other people as well. Healing is the children's bread; no surprise then it takes childlike faith to receive, as opposed to being told all your life these things don't/can't happen, it was for the early church, ect., as much of the American churches erroneously teach. Blessings....
Miracles happen all the time, even to people who don't think they deserve them. Miracles happen to people who do not even believe it was a miracle.
One of the perversions of religion is to teach that one must be a certain way to receive.
The other is that if someone doesn't receive what they want then it must be that they are not childlike or in a position to receive or don't have enough faith or haven't tithed, or some other nonsense.
Overseas missions counts on dollars from richer nations to keep them afloat. The well would dry up if they did not come back with grand sounding stories to tell.
It is the same reason a kid who read the bible with all odds against it was not seen as anything but dumb and meaningless.
:cloud9: I can see I didn't explain well enough. The childlike faith comes from HIM, it is the measure of faith He gives all men to receive Him. Receiving Him is not only a one time salvation experience; receiving ANYTHING from the Spirit, is receiving HIM. Blessings....
Quote from: CHB on May 06, 2010, 05:45:15 PM
(John 3:34) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God GIVETH NOT THE SPIRIT BY MEASURE UNTO HIM.
(Rom. 12:3) Last part of verse. according as God hath DEALT TO EVERY MAN THE MEASURE OF FAITH.
CHB
(John 3:34) For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God GIVETH NOT THE SPIRIT BY MEASURE
UNTO HIM. These last words are in italics in the KJV because they have been added by the translators. "Where ever there is any of God, there is all of God." He gives us His Spirit, Who is Himself God. It is GOD that is given. He is present, not just a part of Him, which would be in a measure.
What "the measure of faith" is that is given to every human is dependant on the Word of God expressed to every human, for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Christ is the Word made flesh. He is what is given to all humanity, not an arm or a leg, which would be a part, but, He is Himself the gift given.
The Eclessia, the "called-out", is summoned by the Word Who is expressed by the Father. Christ is the Measure, the "form" of God. The extent to which any of us are hearing that Word is what we may speak of as our calling. Paul was called to be an apostle and teacher of the nations. The degree to which we are available to Him is the measure of our maturity. God's purpose for each of us is to mature, "Till we ALL come...unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ep 4:13) "The disciple, when he is finished, will be like his master."
Keep in mind that Jesus quoted word for word. Ps. 22:2 "Psalm 22:2 "My God, my God, why have You abandoned me; why so far from delivering me and my anguished roaring?"
Read the entire psalm - it is a picture of the crucifixion scene. Jesus was not crying out in His God-ness but FOR all humanity.
Two things are clear to me:
1. (Obviously) Jesus was NOT forsaken.
2. The statement wasn't even ABOUT whether Jesus was actually forsaken or not.
:Chinscratch:
Hi peacemaker
I prefer scripture references to confident assertions. I am open to ideas, but eventually the scriptures speak to me the loudest.
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
(2Co 5:21)
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
(Heb 2:9)
I am open to instruction and I am not dogmatic about much of anything, but I do require that insights be found witnessed in scripture. 2 Cor 5:21 was one witness, off the top of my head, that seems to indicate "penal substitution" (your words).
Quote from: eaglesway on May 08, 2010, 11:48:44 AM
insights be found witnessed in scripture. 2 Cor 5:21 was one witness, off the top of my head, that seems to indicate "penal substitution" (your words).
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, 'Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree.' [Galatians 3:10,13]
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. [1 Peter 2:24]
for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; Romans 3:23-25
Quote from: JabChrist redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, 'Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree.' [Galatians 3:10,13]
Galatians 4:5
so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."the adoption as sons"G5206
υιοθεσία
uihothesiahwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087;
the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).
Isaiah 38:17
"Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is You who has kept my soul from the pit of nothingness, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.
Quote from: Firstborn2. The statement wasn't even ABOUT whether Jesus was actually forsaken or not.
In Gen 3, God calls to Adam--
On the cross, Adam calls to God--
Where are you?Mark 15:38
And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
my :2c:
God breathed in... and Jesus gave up the last breathe,did Jesus give it up? his spirit not just his life?
:cloud9: Not sure of the point you're making, but He showed me when God breathes in, our spirit taken back, when God breaths out, spirit sent out (into flesh body or otherwise). Blessings....
Quote from: eaglesway on May 08, 2010, 11:48:44 AM
I prefer scripture references to confident assertions. I am open to ideas, but eventually the scriptures speak to me the loudest.
I am open to instruction and I am not dogmatic about much of anything, but I do require that insights be found witnessed in scripture. 2 Cor 5:21 was one witness, off the top of my head, that seems to indicate "penal substitution" (your words).
"The Spirit of the Law is life; not death."
A mere assertion, per se, would be that of putting the Spirit in a box; entertaining the idea or thought that a few Scriptures would be sufficient to prove, or even disprove a thing. Besides this, there are issues which would need to be addressed, such as: The Trinity, or the inerrancy of the Scriptures themselves, which presumably are banned discussions (within the same realm of His Sovereignty and Self-determination). However, I do believe that the "Cross of Christ" is much more than an alternative form of punishment or it's equivalent (a covering or ransom), as the wages of sin is death. Although logically, it does appear that if the death of Christ satisfies the SPIRITS need for justice, then salvation and atonement should be granted to ALL without exception.
"A Sacrificial death, or the Resurrected life?"
I do appreciate your thoughts, preferences, and intent which comes from the heart.
peacemaker
Hi peacemaker,
I agree that the cross of Christ is much more than a substitutional satisfaction of the penalty for sin, and I agree that trying to prove a thing by a few verses can be another method of "boxing God. However, you made a strong statement- that the doctrine of "penal substitution" is a fallacy of worldly churches. As I read the scriptures the payment by Jesus on the cross of a debt owed by all men in Adam is a legitimate part of the gospel. My point was that the scriptures ought to be a part of such an assertion, because opinions are like belly buttons- everybody has one(including me :happygrin:).
You also just made another strong statement, as if it is a logical truism.
"Although logically, it does appear that if the death of Christ satisfies the SPIRITS need for justice, then salvation and atonement should be granted to ALL without exception."
This is not necessarily logical. IMO logic must be informed by the Logos. Although Jesus paid the debt for all, God has made participation in the deliverance a matter of covenant. So, even tho "as in Adam all died so in Christ shall all be made alive", it will be each in their own order, as "every knee bows and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord"- as I am sure you know. From Abraham till now participation requires faith. Logically then, Christ's death could satisfy a penalty for all as a ransom and nevertheless require the effect of time(an administration suitable to the fulness of time) in reaching God's ultimate kind intention, "for we do not yet see all things subject to Him". Among the effects of the cross are reconciliation for all, subjection of all to Christ by the Father, ratification of the covenant, and destruction of the enmity of law.
SO to end, I am not sure that you are correct that because I believe that Christ's death on a cross satisfied certain requirements of God regarding the penalty of sin(among the many other things, indeed all things, it accomplished... "It Is Finished"), that I have received a worldly fallacy. You would have to provide some scripture for me to consider, along with any logic.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 09, 2010, 02:38:32 PM
God has made participation in the deliverance a matter of covenant.
The language of participation is not only different from substitution, it is contrary to it in the normal sense of the word (Logos).
Jesus was crucified as a consequence of sin; for death is the logical conclusion of sin, whether it is that in which we actively participate or in which we are merely spectators and recipients. In other words, I tend to see these verses of "Jesus bore," the logical end of our sin, but overcame the consequences through his final act of forgiveness and resurrection.
His "justice" is not meant to bring punishment, but correction, healing and reconciliation. However, the temple which had a monopoly on forgiveness through required sacrifices; turned communion with the SPIRIT into a franchise, covering themselves in His blood.
"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. (1 Peter 4:12-13 see also Romans 8:17 and 2 Thessalonians 1:5)
"Having canceled the written code (law), with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." (Colossians 2:14)
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life, set me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1).
"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified..." (Galatians 6:14)
"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" (Romans 5:10)
"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; And the knowledge of God, more than burnt offering." (Hosea 6:6)
"You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalm 51: 16-17)
Satisfaction: Jesus' perfect sacrifice satisfied God's demand for glory from imperfect humanity.
Penal Substitution: Jesus' punishment satisfied God's demand for each individual's punishment.
Ransom: Jesus' death satisfied the adversaries demand for payment.
I am sorry, for me, the math just doesn't work out; legalistic bookkeeping. If you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. As if I didn't have enough to think about already. Is Penal Substitution an official ™ Christian view?
If so, then I am glad that I'm not labeled a Christian in the Orthodox since of the Word.
peacemaker
QuoteIs Penal Substitution an official ™ Christian view?
The way I see it, Jesus comes to ransom his family with his own life, in the tradition of the kinsman-redeemer, and in the process, ransoms the whole world.
Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Hi peacemaker
I appreciate the clarification on your definitions concerning Satisfaction, Penal Substitution, etc. Now I have a clearer idea of what you are saying. As I said in my previous posts, I see the cross as much more than penal substitution, but I still see it(p. s.) as a part of the picture. God has, does and will inflict punishment- specific to and appropriate to specific transgressions. Of course, the end result is correction and healing. Nevertheless, it is part of the process. Recognizing that Jesus suffered 39 stripes that belonged to me, is a part of my healing. The confession of sin, allows propitiation for sin (1John 1), so I can escape the punishment I deserve through a broken and contrite heart. If I will not acknowledge my sin, that punishment will lead to my eventual restoration, but it is still advisable for me to take advantage of the propitiation.
Psa 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(Luk 12:47-48)
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
(Heb 12:11-13)
Quote from: Molly on May 07, 2010, 03:10:52 AM
Quote from: PMThe bottom line is that Jesus could not have been saying that the SPIRIT had rejected or abandoned Him. That would only surmount to a complete lack of faith within the OT prophesies, promises, and that of the faithful witness, himself.
Isn't that what death is? How did Adam die in the day?
... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
--Gen 2
Didn't Jesus have to reverse what Adam had done? Walk in his shoes with a better outcome? He is our kinsman-Redeemer.
he will be gracious and say, 'Rescue him from the grave, for I have found a ransom for his life.'
--Job 33:24
according to the edgar cayce material
adam was the first adam
an incarnation of jesus ..the last adam
:cloud9: According to Edgar Cayce, Jesus was the 33rd reincarnation of Adam. Come let us reason together. Does this not mean Adam saved HIMSELF, therefore he needs no savior? That makes it a work of the flesh, and God determined that NO MAN would be able to glory in the flesh, and say look at me, I did it. That certainly includes Adam, who was prophesied to regarding his future savior, and it was not in how many soulish "garments" he changed into along the way.
Edgar Cayce was a man, who as a no doubt well-meaning man of Baptist upbringing, had absolutely no understanding or experience with the Holy Ghost, and therefore, no discerning of spirits which comes from the Holy Ghost, in regards to how those spirits that needed to be discerned, work.
What he had was a familiar spirit, which spoke out of him when he was hypnotized. Not any different than the oracles of Delphi or any other pagan religion, where some form of mind alteration (usually drug induced) was used to "hear" from the demon spirits that then had a free pass to enter the unenlightened.
What came into him was an angel of light, and it managed to effectively disguise it's motives under "good works", which were by no means, "good" in the first place. We would shudder if one of our neighbors went out in their yard and did some sort of pagan worship rain dance, imploring pagan gods to bring rain, and if it in fact rained by the luck of the draw so to speak, we would not think it was a good thing, and start worshiping their god with them, just because it rained.
But this is precisely what thousands and thousands of people have done, because of the illusion of the "good works" of this familiar spirit, that in actuality, only went ahead to the target, and observed the physical body of the one being "read" for, then gave a "diagnosis" for what the spirits themselves had caused in the first place, is just a magician's parlor trick of another realm.
The demons can see thru us, like a window. Which is a really good reason to have Christ inside you, so they only see Him and flee. :eek: So no big trick to proclaim what the physical problem is, and their understanding of how we are made from being there at the beginning, gives them superior knowledge of how things "work".
What people need to understand is that the carnal mind is in the spiritual realm, and through the power of demonic spirits, whether it be through types of yoga, psychics, levitating magicians, or psychic healers, the carnal mind can ascend into the soulish spiritual realms. The carnal mind is enmity against God, and God has no enemies of flesh and blood, nor do we. But we do have enemies that are powers and principalities. And if God's enemy, then we ought not be making friends with it, or it's reasonings. It's purpose is to be a servant, under submission to the mind of Christ, as any other beastly carnal nature.
The problem is, the people that ascend in these types of things, do so without the COVERING of Christ, without the Spirit of Christ lifting them up into those realms, and just like the women who had no covering and therefore became attractive to the nephalim and birthed unholy things, so too does the soul who seeks to ascend without her God ordained covering, Jesus Christ.
Whatever healing was attained, was short lived, and only added to the accumulating darkness and sin for the people who drank the "kool-aide", and therefore their spiritual state was worse than at the beginning. My :2c: Blessings....
:iagree:
Me too.
i think it was 30 lifetimes for jesus according to cayce not 33
but who's counting .......
Quote from: Cardinal on April 29, 2014, 06:26:12 AM
:cloud9: According to Edgar Cayce, Jesus was the 33rd reincarnation of Adam. Come let us reason together. Does this not mean Adam saved HIMSELF, therefore he needs no savior? That makes it a work of the flesh, and God determined that NO MAN would be able to glory in the flesh, and say look at me, I did it. That certainly includes Adam, who was prophesied to regarding his future savior, and it was not in how many soulish "garments" he changed into along the way.
Edgar Cayce was a man, who as a no doubt well-meaning man of Baptist upbringing, had absolutely no understanding or experience with the Holy Ghost, and therefore, no discerning of spirits which comes from the Holy Ghost, in regards to how those spirits that needed to be discerned, work.
What he had was a familiar spirit, which spoke out of him when he was hypnotized. Not any different than the oracles of Delphi or any other pagan religion, where some form of mind alteration (usually drug induced) was used to "hear" from the demon spirits that then had a free pass to enter the unenlightened.
What came into him was an angel of light, and it managed to effectively disguise it's motives under "good works", which were by no means, "good" in the first place. We would shudder if one of our neighbors went out in their yard and did some sort of pagan worship rain dance, imploring pagan gods to bring rain, and if it in fact rained by the luck of the draw so to speak, we would not think it was a good thing, and start worshiping their god with them, just because it rained.
But this is precisely what thousands and thousands of people have done, because of the illusion of the "good works" of this familiar spirit, that in actuality, only went ahead to the target, and observed the physical body of the one being "read" for, then gave a "diagnosis" for what the spirits themselves had caused in the first place, is just a magician's parlor trick of another realm.
The demons can see thru us, like a window. Which is a really good reason to have Christ inside you, so they only see Him and flee. :eek: So no big trick to proclaim what the physical problem is, and their understanding of how we are made from being there at the beginning, gives them superior knowledge of how things "work".
What people need to understand is that the carnal mind is in the spiritual realm, and through the power of demonic spirits, whether it be through types of yoga, psychics, levitating magicians, or psychic healers, the carnal mind can ascend into the soulish spiritual realms. The carnal mind is enmity against God, and God has no enemies of flesh and blood, nor do we. But we do have enemies that are powers and principalities. And if God's enemy, then we ought not be making friends with it, or it's reasonings. It's purpose is to be a servant, under submission to the mind of Christ, as any other beastly carnal nature.
The problem is, the people that ascend in these types of things, do so without the COVERING of Christ, without the Spirit of Christ lifting them up into those realms, and just like the women who had no covering and therefore became attractive to the nephalim and birthed unholy things, so too does the soul who seeks to ascend without her God ordained covering, Jesus Christ.
Whatever healing was attained, was short lived, and only added to the accumulating darkness and sin for the people who drank the "kool-aide", and therefore their spiritual state was worse than at the beginning. My :2c: Blessings....