Good afternoon. Glad to be here. Gary and I have been having a interesting discussion about this scripture. Although, the discussion has been one sided due to the fact that Gary will not respond to my questions. So, I thought I would give his forum a chance to answer.
Matthew 16:26 " For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits( Loses) his soul?"
Here are the questions and statements that Gary has been alluding:
Gary, can you explain to me why Jesus would say that one can LOSE his/her own soul if He were going to save the very ones who He says will lose their soul by gaining the world?
How can one Lose his/her own soul and go to heaven?
If everyone is going to be saved, is not Jesus contradicting Himself here? That would be a silly thing for Jesus to say if all souls were going to be saved.
I look forward to hearing your response. God bless :winkgrin: :thumbsup:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 14, 2009, 09:24:13 PM
Good afternoon. Glad to be here. Gary and I have been having a interesting discussion about this scripture. Although, the discussion has been one sided due to the fact that Gary will not respond to my questions. So, I thought I would give his forum a chance to answer.
Matthew 16:26 " For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits( Loses) his soul?"
Here are the questions and statements that Gary has been alluding:
Gary, can you explain to me why Jesus would say that one can LOSE his/her own soul if He were going to save the very ones who He says will lose their soul by gaining the world?
How can one Lose his/her own soul and go to heaven?
If everyone is going to be saved, is not Jesus contradicting Himself here? That would be a silly thing for Jesus to say if all souls were going to be saved.
I look forward to hearing your response. God bless :winkgrin: :thumbsup:
for me, the "soul" here is the identity based upon delusion from the "serpent". It's an identity in the absence of love revealed.
It's the carnal mind.
The meaning of "soul" is important here:
Matthew 16:
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself (the concept of "self" is important to the next phrase), and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul (psuche)? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
As I said, the concept of SELF is important to understand in relation to how Jesus is using the word "psuche."
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G5590 — Strong
ψυχή
psuchē (psoo-khay')
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
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Do you see where Jesus says: "He that SAVES his soul, shall lose it, and he that LOSES his soul shall find it?" Well, that would make no sense if you view the soul as being what I was taught as a christian, the soul being our ghost. Nope. The psuche in regard to how Jesus uses it contextually is our SELF. It is the seat of our emotions, our MINDs, our sense of autonomy located in our mind (not brain which is the physical part).
We must lose our SELf we actually gain ourselves, because God gives us the Spirit, which SAVES our selves from sin. When we are in sin our self, our mind, the seat of our emotions, our thoughts, our identifiable being is gone and lost. This is why Jesus said: LET THE DEAD BURY THE DEAD. He was speaking of people who were physically alive, that is physically animated, as being DEAD. What makes them dead? Well, this world of sin.
The salvation of our being, is in the Spirit which delivers us from sin. Paul said that the KINGDOM OF GOD is not in meat or drink (physical manifestations), but the peace and joy of the Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus said that some people standing there listening to him would not taste of death before they see Christ coming in his Kingdom. Think Pentacost. That is the kingdom, peace and joy in the Spirit.
There are two ways to lose our selves/souls: 1) to the world and 2) through the cross.
In the world, we lose our souls/lives IN sin. Through the cross we lose our souls/lives TO sin because our old self/soul/life is crucified with Christ and raised to what Paul called "walking in newness of life." (Romans 6)
Again, in order to GAIN our souls we must LOSE our souls. In other words, we must take up our cross to crucify the flesh with all its passions and lusts, and in doing so we FIND our souls/lives/selves because we are saved BY Christ and IN Christ and THROUGH Christ.
Nice post Seth. :thumbsup:
Hey Seth, thanks for your reply.
I believe this passage teaches an exchange. Let me explain. People want worldly gain. Worldly gain comes with a price. Jesus said you can't serve money and God. There is a choice. I believe the people who lose their souls are exchanging them for worldly possession that leave you bankrupt spiritually. Another words, they exchanged their souls for a lie ( The World) , rather than losing their life to gain it through Christ.
At the judgment when the people who lost their souls for worldly gain faces the disastrous hell of remorse and suffering for his lost soul, with what will he buy it back from perdition? Nothing.
Aaron
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 14, 2009, 10:52:14 PM
Hey Seth. Thanks for your response.
You said:
There are two ways to lose our selves/souls: 1) to the world and 2) through the cross.
In the world, we lose our souls/lives IN sin. Through the cross we lose our souls/lives TO sin because our old self/soul/life is crucified with Christ and raised to what Paul called "walking in newness of life." (Romans 6)
Again, in order to GAIN our souls we must LOSE our souls. In other words, we must take up our cross to crucify the flesh with all its passions and lusts, and in doing so we FIND our souls/lives/selves because we are saved BY Christ and IN Christ and THROUGH Christ.
Aaron: I believe this passage teaches an exchange. Let me explain. People want worldly gain. Worldly gain comes with a price. Jesus said you can't serve money and God. There is a choice. I believe the people who lose their souls are exchanging them for worldly possession that leave you bankrupt spiritually. Another words, they exchanged their souls for a lie, rather than losing their life to gain it through Christ.
At the judgment when the people who lost their souls for worldly gain faces the disastrous hell of remorse and suffering for his lost soul, with what will he buy it back from perdition? Nothing.
Aaron
Aaron,
I think you have assumed that the scripture is referring to a demand from God to give HIM something. The scripture doesn't really say that.
If a man gains the world (ie is RICH and PLENTIFUL in worldly possessions but forsaking the Cross of sacrifice), he actually HAS no profit like he thinks he does and is still dead in sin despite his riches. Therefore, if the same man GIVES, it can only be from what he has profited, nothing.
The question Jesus is asking is this: What can man profit, if he loses his soul, even if he has money? Nothing. Therefore, what, from his profit of nothing, can a man give in exchange for his soul? Nothing.
Aaron, that just means that our wellbeing cannot be purchased through earthly wealth. Have you ever heard the term "money can't buy you happiness?" Same thing. If a man rejects taking up his cross to gain earthly wealth, thereby destroying his life/soul to a walk in sin, what sum of that cash can the man give to be made spiritually well? None, because the Spirit is priceless and cannot be bought. It is therefore only through the taking up the cross that man may lose his soul and therefore gain his soul, not through anything man can purchase through his earthly goods.
There is nothing in that which suggests God is going to demand a gift from people in exchange of their souls. Was the price Jesus paid with his life not good enough for God? God said that he has already given the world and everything in it to His Son. His son already owns us. There is nothing man can give God of any higher value than that. Therefore, Christ's possession is already bought and paid for.
Good post Seth. :thumbsup:
Seth,
No, Not at all. Exchanging the life in Christ for worldly gain is hardly expecting to give God something. People are choosing the world and its false riches over the life in Christ. The result of that choice leaves one spiritually bankrupt. They lost their souls for worldly gain which leads to eternal destruction instead of losing their life to gain eternal life in Christ.
Aaron :sigh:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 03:29:06 AM
Seth,
No, Not at all. Exchanging the life in Christ for worldly gain is hardly expecting to give God something. People are choosing the world and its false riches over the life in Christ. The result of that choice leaves one spiritually bankrupt. They lost their souls for worldly gain which leads to eternal destruction instead of losing their life to gain eternal life in Christ.
Aaron :winkgrin: :thumbsup:
And you're happy and grinning and "thumbs up" because....
why?
Very good point Sparrow.
cp
Sorry. no particular reason. I changed it. :thumbsup:
Hi 37. There've been many studies and discussions on Tent and elsewhere about "eternal"/aionios (age-during). Do you accept the translation eternal destruction, and if so, what do you believe it means? Thanks, James.
I'm agreeing with Seth on this one. I think he's got the right idea. :)
Tim
Why do you agree with Seth? What about my interpretation of Matthew 16:26 do you not agree with?
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 03:29:06 AM
Seth,
No, Not at all. Exchanging the life in Christ for worldly gain is hardly expecting to give God something.
Huh? That wasn't my point. I think you misunderstood me.
QuotePeople are choosing the world and its false riches over the life in Christ.
Agreed. :thumbsup:
QuoteThe result of that choice leaves one spiritually bankrupt.
Agreed. :thumbsup:
QuoteThey lost their souls for worldly gain which leads to eternal destruction instead of losing their life to gain eternal life in Christ.
Disagreed. This is not provable by the scripture you provided for discussion. You provided ONE scripture and attempted to READ INTO it more than what it actually says.
Seth,
Jesus said if you want to gain the world its going to cost you something, your soul. Exchanging/ losing your soul to gain the world is the ultimate price to pay, spiritual bankruptcy, destruction, being without Jesus for the ages of ages ( fig, forever).
Yes, I know he said it would cost. However he never said "ages of ages" in that scripture. You are adding what is there. You brought up the scripture because you saw it as a supposed exchange to occur at a future judgment. I have shown that it actually refers to what occurs in this life, not forever.
He also never said temporary in that scripture. You are adding what is there. No, it is an exchange/ loss of spiritual life right now at the present time which has spiritual eternal consequences in the future when you die.
Why are people so eager to choose there religious, doctrinal views over the word.
Why do they want to take beautiful scriptures and reinterpret them for everyone. 'I believe this teaches'........why does everyone want to take something incusive and make it exlusive.
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
God bless.
:cloud9: Amen Shawn, pretty plain there, isn't it? Blessings.... :thumbsup:
bump.
Amen Shawn. :HeartThrob: