L Ray Smith and Death

[Doc]

This is a confusing topic to me as well. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who are spiritually alive remain so at their physical death, while those who are not must wait. The resurrection must be true, but I don't necessarily think the resurrection has to be to "consciousness"; I see it as perhaps more of a "completion".
I don't know, I'm just speculating here. I'm just thinking of Jesus' words to Lazarus' sister in dealing with Lazarus' physical resurrection from the dead. "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will never die, do you believe this?" We also know that aionios life is to know the Father and son. So, I'm just trying to reconcile the scriptures that seem to be saying one thing vs. those that appear to be saying something else.

[lookingup]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 -
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage of scripture is just one that changed my mind about  the "hellfire and brimstone" teaching of the baptist church in which i was reared.

This was the subject of possibily one of the last sermons that i attended at said church.

It did not make sense that the Lord was coming back to ressurect the dead if the dead "go" to be with the Lord at death. This and the other verses (david dead and in his grave), etc. etc.

If the Lord was coming back to get the still living, that would make sense to me, but that is not what's happening here.

It really doesn't matter to me personaly if i'm right or not  about this point i just love God and His Son more than i ever did while i was stuck in the blindness of religion (i thought i loved Them then)but it's nothing compared to  the love i now have.

Through this site and a few others i found the Living, Loving, God that will have ALL to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Isn't that something that sends a thrilling chill down you back? it does me, every time i think about it! :bgdance:

                                                 

[Nathan]

I was also never a big supporter of soul-sleep.  For me, there are several instances in Scripture that show otherwise.  When Saul brought Samuel's spirit back from the dead . . .there's no indication that Samuel was in soul-sleep . . .in fact, he prophesied things that only one who was conscious would be able to know.  Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration . . .they were obviously not asleep as Scripture states they were encouraging Jesus and conversing about what he was about to do at the cross. 

Then there's Hebrews 11 and the very beginning of 12 speaking about the "cloud" of witnesses . . .being all those that have passed on before us, are still right here with us . .much like being in the stands of a stadium and those who are alive in the flesh are still in the game . . .those in the stands are rooting on those that are in the game.  No mention of soul sleeping there either.

[WhiteWings]

This is a confusing topic to me as well. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who are spiritually alive remain so at their physical death, while those who are not must wait. The resurrection must be true, but I don't necessarily think the resurrection has to be to "consciousness"; I see it as perhaps more of a "completion".

Ok, lets assume the dead are conscious. I assume they are not just a spirit laying in a grave. Thinking and waiting until resurrection. But where are they?
At judgement they are resurrected and split in goats and sheep. Let keep it simple. LoF and Heaven.
Without judgement no destination.
But again where are the 'dead' between when they are buried and when the judgement is?
And if they are conscious they know things.

If they are somewhere they are not asleep. Or resting.
But when Samuel was angry at Saul because he disturbed him in is rest.

:dontknow: :dontknow:
:dontknow:

[legoman]

This is a confusing topic to me as well. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who are spiritually alive remain so at their physical death, while those who are not must wait. The resurrection must be true, but I don't necessarily think the resurrection has to be to "consciousness"; I see it as perhaps more of a "completion".
I don't know, I'm just speculating here. I'm just thinking of Jesus' words to Lazarus' sister in dealing with Lazarus' physical resurrection from the dead. "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will never die, do you believe this?" We also know that aionios life is to know the Father and son. So, I'm just trying to reconcile the scriptures that seem to be saying one thing vs. those that appear to be saying something else.

How about this -  here is an idea... the resurrection is spiritual!  (Imagine that! Its spiritual just like everything else Jesus talked about!)

OY this is starting to make sense to me now.

Could the resurrection be now when we are reborn?  Everyone starts out with spirit (God's breath), but we also all start out spiritually dead/dying.  We continue spiritually (and physically) dying until we hit rock bottom, and then God awakens and enables us.  We come to Christ - we are reborn and begin the process of spiritual growth.  We are now spiritually alive because we believe and have hope!

We have been "spiritually" resurrected from the dead!

Problems with this idea:
- it still says in John 3:13 no one has entered heaven
- all the references to people sleeping when they die
- we don't have spiritual bodies yet (or maybe we do?), only physical bodies, so has the resurreciton really happened?  (perhaps not)

This "spiritual" stuff is always confusing for me.  Still not conclusive for me that we aren't "sleeping" at physical death.

[legoman]

This is a confusing topic to me as well. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who are spiritually alive remain so at their physical death, while those who are not must wait. The resurrection must be true, but I don't necessarily think the resurrection has to be to "consciousness"; I see it as perhaps more of a "completion".

Ok, lets assume the dead are conscious. I assume there in no spirit laying in a grave. Thinking and waiting until resurrection. But where are they?
At judgement they are resurrected and split in goats and sheep. Let keep it simple. LoF and Heaven.
Without judgement no destination.
But again where are the 'dead' between when they are buried and when the judgement is?
And if they are conscious they know things.

If they are somewhere they are not asleep. Or resting.
But when Samuel was angry at Saul because he disturbed him in is rest.

:dontknow: :dontknow:
:dontknow:

Yes there are all sorts of problems if one assumes the dead are conscious while waiting for judgment.  What are those destined for LoF doing while they wait for judgment? 

In your scenario above WW, lets also assume there are 2 separate resurrections: one for the elect and one for those destined to the GWT & LoF.

So the elect are raised and get aionion life at Christ's return.  But the rest are raised much later, just before the GWT judgment.  What are the 2nd group doing while the elect reign with Christ?

UNLESS its something like this:  While the elect are raised they are reigning with Christ - they are reigning over the unbelievers.  In fact they are judging and teaching and effectively helping to save the all the unbelievers.

However this would point that the unbelievers are no longer dead, they would also have been raised at the same time as the elect.

I know I haven't laid this out completely clearly, but to me it doesn't make sense the unbelievers would be conscious before they are raised to judgment.

[sven]

I don't want to hijack this thread but I have read that the KJV onlyism was kind of started by a Seventh Day Adventist and that the KJV at some occasions defends soulsleep more than other translations which was the reason for it, does anybody know which occasions this are?

[lookingup]

I have read this some time ago and finally found it, it is a portion of an article written by L.Ray Smith

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."

If any would care to read the full article you can find it here:   http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html 

i had to read it over a couple of days since it is quite lengthy

This might answer some questions

[Doc]

I think one of the problems is that we are assuming that because we have not ascended to "heaven" yet, we do not have anywhere to go. This is a big universe. What if judgment happens more or less immediately after death for each individual, rather than one large corporate judgment? What if we simply do not ascend to the highest heaven (there are levels of heaven in the scripture; Paul was taken to the third heaven, for example) until after the 'resurrection'/ and or judgment, whatever/ whenever those are exactly?

[Nathan]

Philippians 1 KJV
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

MESSAGE TRANSLATION
22-26As long as I'm alive in this body, there is good work for me to do. If I had to choose right now, I hardly know which I'd choose. Hard choice! The desire to break camp here and be with Christ is powerful. Some days I can think of nothing better. But most days, because of what you are going through, I am sure that it's better for me to stick it out here. So I plan to be around awhile, companion to you as your growth and joy in this life of trusting God continues. You can start looking forward to a great reunion when I come visit you again. We'll be praising Christ, enjoying each other.

NEW LIVING TRANSLATION
22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better. 23 I'm torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. 24 But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.

Still no indication that there's any unconsciousness after death . . .

[legoman]

Philippians 1 KJV
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

MESSAGE TRANSLATION
22-26As long as I'm alive in this body, there is good work for me to do. If I had to choose right now, I hardly know which I'd choose. Hard choice! The desire to break camp here and be with Christ is powerful. Some days I can think of nothing better. But most days, because of what you are going through, I am sure that it's better for me to stick it out here. So I plan to be around awhile, companion to you as your growth and joy in this life of trusting God continues. You can start looking forward to a great reunion when I come visit you again. We'll be praising Christ, enjoying each other.

NEW LIVING TRANSLATION
22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better. 23 I'm torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. 24 But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.

Still no indication that there's any unconsciousness after death . . .

But if we were unconscious there would be effectively no difference:

1. die and immediately be with Christ

OR

2. die, be unconscious for ages, and awake to be with Christ

Either way from our perspective it would appear that we died and immediately be with Christ.  This is what Paul is talking about and I don't think it makes a case for/or against "sleep as death".

[WhiteWings]

In your scenario above WW, lets also assume there are 2 separate resurrections: one for the elect and one for those destined to the GWT & LoF.

So the elect are raised and get aionion life at Christ's return.  But the rest are raised much later, just before the GWT judgment.

Then the GWT is a joke.
Maybe not the right word but people are judged before GWT. If the wicked stay dead that means God already judged them.

[Nathan]

Philippians 1 KJV
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

MESSAGE TRANSLATION
22-26As long as I'm alive in this body, there is good work for me to do. If I had to choose right now, I hardly know which I'd choose. Hard choice! The desire to break camp here and be with Christ is powerful. Some days I can think of nothing better. But most days, because of what you are going through, I am sure that it's better for me to stick it out here. So I plan to be around awhile, companion to you as your growth and joy in this life of trusting God continues. You can start looking forward to a great reunion when I come visit you again. We'll be praising Christ, enjoying each other.

NEW LIVING TRANSLATION
22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don't know which is better. 23 I'm torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. 24 But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.

Still no indication that there's any unconsciousness after death . . .

But if we were unconscious there would be effectively no difference:

1. die and immediately be with Christ

OR

2. die, be unconscious for ages, and awake to be with Christ

Either way from our perspective it would appear that we died and immediately be with Christ.  This is what Paul is talking about and I don't think it makes a case for/or against "sleep as death".

But you're still not addressing the passages of Hebrews 11 and 12 . . .or the transfiguration of Jesus with Moses and Elijah . . .they are definitely not unconscious there . . .some argued that the transfiguration wasn't really happening that it was more of a vision . . .which I disagree with, but for the sake of the argument, even if it was a vision, why would Jesus show them a vision of dead men being conscious if that were not to be true?

And why would Paul long to be with Christ is he's just going to be unconscious through it all anyway?  It just feels like we're trying to force a round peg in a square hole with this belief.  It's not fitting with what Scripture is implying is all.

[Doc]

Perhaps the GWT is merely the "passing of sentence", the actual judgment having already occured?

[legoman]

Perhaps the GWT is merely the "passing of sentence", the actual judgment having already occured?

Part of the GWT is still the judgment of works.

Back to WW's comment about the 2 resurrections - yes it seems like Matt 25:41-46 would indicate all are raised at the same time and then the goats go one way and the sheep the other.

But the judgment is not just the separation into 2 groups (believers/unbelievers).  More importantly it is a judgment of works - each person gives an account of all they did.  They will be shamed and corrected for some of the things they did.  This is the refining, purging, purifying process.

Its good to point out though that works don't save us.  But we still have to be refined and purged of the bad works of "wood/straw" etc.

[Doc]

Perhaps the GWT is merely the "passing of sentence", the actual judgment having already occured?

Part of the GWT is still the judgment of works.

Back to WW's comment about the 2 resurrections - yes it seems like Matt 25:41-46 would indicate all are raised at the same time and then the goats go one way and the sheep the other.

But the judgment is not just the separation into 2 groups (believers/unbelievers).  More importantly it is a judgment of works - each person gives an account of all they did.  They will be shamed and corrected for some of the things they did.  This is the refining, purging, purifying process.

Its good to point out though that works don't save us.  But we still have to be refined and purged of the bad works of "wood/straw" etc.

Right, good point. Thanks for reminding me of that.

[WhiteWings]

2 judgements?????


Revelation 20:4-5  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

=> Looks like only the saints are resurrected.
=> First judgement

Revelation 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

=> Second judgement
=> This group of dead are the wicked from 1000 year ago but still they seem to be in the book of life???


Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

=> Only the souls where seen. No bodies yet.
=> Only souls of the saints where seen. They where good. What are they judged for?
=> Who is 'they' sitting on the thrones.

[legoman]

But you're still not addressing the passages of Hebrews 11 and 12 . . .or the transfiguration of Jesus with Moses and Elijah . . .they are definitely not unconscious there . . .some argued that the transfiguration wasn't really happening that it was more of a vision . . .which I disagree with, but for the sake of the argument, even if it was a vision, why would Jesus show them a vision of dead men being conscious if that were not to be true?

And why would Paul long to be with Christ is he's just going to be unconscious through it all anyway?  It just feels like we're trying to force a round peg in a square hole with this belief.  It's not fitting with what Scripture is implying is all.

Here we read Enoch was taken from this life:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

He did not experience death... what does that mean?  Does that imply He did not have to physically die?  Or that He just didn't know he had died?  He was "taken" and couldn't be found.  Not too sure here.

But later in verse 13 its cleared up:
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

All the above mentioned people (including Enoch), died!  And more specifically they DID NOT receive the things promised.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Same in verse 39.  Verse 40 clarifies further - something better is planned so that those in faith TOGETHER WITH US will be made perfect.

So they haven't been made perfect yet.  How would they be in heaven if they weren't perfect?  The refining process will be done all at the same time - us together with those who died with faith in the past.

[legoman]

2 judgements?????


Revelation 20:4-5  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

=> Looks like only the saints are resurrected.
=> First judgement

Revelation 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

=> Second judgement
=> This group of dead are the wicked from 1000 year ago but still they seem to be in the book of life???


Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

=> Only the souls where seen. No bodies yet.
=> Only souls of the saints where seen. They where good. What are they judged for?
=> Who is 'they' sitting on the thrones.

Yep I'm confused... 2 judgments as above, while Matthew 25:41-46 seems to show 1 judgment.

[WhiteWings]

Perhaps the GWT is merely the "passing of sentence", the actual judgment having already occured?

Part of the GWT is still the judgment of works.

Back to WW's comment about the 2 resurrections - yes it seems like Matt 25:41-46 would indicate all are raised at the same time and then the goats go one way and the sheep the other.

But the judgment is not just the separation into 2 groups (believers/unbelievers).  More importantly it is a judgment of works - each person gives an account of all they did.  They will be shamed and corrected for some of the things they did.  This is the refining, purging, purifying process.

Legoman,

While you posted this I was typing my previous post. So I didn't ignore you...
The 'works' judgment is the 2nd judgement?
Bit weird.
The saints are raised in the first judgement to rule a 1000 years. If works are not judged at this time then only the faith is judged?
Are they judged with the wicked for their works? And possibly end up in LoF after being rulers for 1000 years?
(rulers over who?)

[Nathan]

But you're still not addressing the passages of Hebrews 11 and 12 . . .or the transfiguration of Jesus with Moses and Elijah . . .they are definitely not unconscious there . . .some argued that the transfiguration wasn't really happening that it was more of a vision . . .which I disagree with, but for the sake of the argument, even if it was a vision, why would Jesus show them a vision of dead men being conscious if that were not to be true?

And why would Paul long to be with Christ is he's just going to be unconscious through it all anyway?  It just feels like we're trying to force a round peg in a square hole with this belief.  It's not fitting with what Scripture is implying is all.

Here we read Enoch was taken from this life:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

He did not experience death... what does that mean?  Does that imply He did not have to physically die?  Or that He just didn't know he had died?  He was "taken" and couldn't be found.  Not too sure here.

But later in verse 13 its cleared up:
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

All the above mentioned people (including Enoch), died!  And more specifically they DID NOT receive the things promised.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Same in verse 39.  Verse 40 clarifies further - something better is planned so that those in faith TOGETHER WITH US will be made perfect.

So they haven't been made perfect yet.  How would they be in heaven if they weren't perfect?  The refining process will be done all at the same time - us together with those who died with faith in the past.

I don't disagree with that . . .what I disagree with is . . they were unconsious .  .they're not, they're aware, their just not fully perfected until the entire body is perfected. . . which includes us.

[reFORMer]

2 judgements?????


Revelation 20:4-5  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

=> Looks like only the saints are resurrected.
=> First judgement

Revelation 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

=> Second judgement
=> This group of dead are the wicked from 1000 year ago but still they seem to be in the book of life???


Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

=> Only the souls where seen. No bodies yet.
=> Only souls of the saints where seen. They where good. What are they judged for?
=> Who is 'they' sitting on the thrones.

(I just tho't you'd like to know the above quoted reply #41 is post #60,666 on tentmaker.)

[Zeek]

IMO, if one studies the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 (whether one sees it as fulfillment of scripture, or an example of the coming "real judgment (either physical or spiritual), it will lead to seeing what the timing is.    

The first century church was judged (their faith was tried in fire prior to the coming wrath/Day of the LORD), and if faithful; just like Noah were saved from the coming destruction/wrath of God.  Those who refused to live by faith; were "shamed" by the fire.  They did not receive reward.  They were left desolate.  But the beauty was they were saved through fire (end of the old, and reconciled through the new).  

 


just my two cents.  

[legoman]

But you're still not addressing the passages of Hebrews 11 and 12 . . .or the transfiguration of Jesus with Moses and Elijah . . .they are definitely not unconscious there . . .some argued that the transfiguration wasn't really happening that it was more of a vision . . .which I disagree with, but for the sake of the argument, even if it was a vision, why would Jesus show them a vision of dead men being conscious if that were not to be true?

And why would Paul long to be with Christ is he's just going to be unconscious through it all anyway?  It just feels like we're trying to force a round peg in a square hole with this belief.  It's not fitting with what Scripture is implying is all.

Here we read Enoch was taken from this life:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

He did not experience death... what does that mean?  Does that imply He did not have to physically die?  Or that He just didn't know he had died?  He was "taken" and couldn't be found.  Not too sure here.

But later in verse 13 its cleared up:
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

All the above mentioned people (including Enoch), died!  And more specifically they DID NOT receive the things promised.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Same in verse 39.  Verse 40 clarifies further - something better is planned so that those in faith TOGETHER WITH US will be made perfect.

So they haven't been made perfect yet.  How would they be in heaven if they weren't perfect?  The refining process will be done all at the same time - us together with those who died with faith in the past.

I don't disagree with that . . .what I disagree with is . . they were unconsious .  .they're not, they're aware, their just not fully perfected until the entire body is perfected. . . which includes us.

Then we are back to the problem of what does it mean when it says "they died."

I thought the point you were making was that Enoch didn't die, he just went to heaven.  But it doesn't say he went to heaven, or that he is even conscious.  It says he was "taken from this life" and then later on it says "he died" (just like the rest).

So IMHO its hard from that to say that Enoch is in heaven when all its saying is he died.

Peace...

[WhiteWings]

(I just tho't you'd like to know the above quoted reply #41 is post #60,666 on tentmaker.)

Seems my judgement is done.
I have the mark 666.
See you in all 1000 years.
Gonna enjoy the filth while I still can. Doesn't matter anymore.
:drummer: