King Saul

[anti_nietzsche]

I recently found something in the bible that might count as an argument for UR.

There was King Saul who offended God a lot and whom God punished with death on the battle field. But the day before that day, Saul spoke with the dead prophet Samuel through a medium. Samuel said, Saul would die, but then he'd be with HIM, Samuel.

So both sinners and the righteous apparently go to the same place.

I know there is the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man which suggests otherwise. It's tricky.

[sven]

personally I believe in soul sleep, so the condition after death does not affect the condition after the resurrection, though people go all to the same place after death as I do not believe in a conscious intermediate state - however conditional immortality is at least a good argument against everlasting torment.

Job 3:11-19 supports this, at least that Job believed there is no difference in Sheol

Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?  Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck? For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,  With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;  Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:  Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

[Tim B]

If people soul sleep (which I am generally an advocate of) is true, how would somebody talk to a dead person such as Samuel if his soul is "sleeping"?

[WhiteWings]

God can wake up souls whenever He wants to I guess.
But still I find that weird. Suppose you are dead and God wakes you up for say 20 minutes.
Would you only say "I was resting"?
Personally I would be a little more excited.... :winkgrin:

[Tim B]

And then He says, "Son, now go back to bed!" and you say, "But Daaaaad!!" xD

[WhiteWings]

No "But Daaaad"
You are grounded for eternity  :laughing7:

[Tim B]

Awwww man, this sucks! I wish I would have never been broiled!! (to quote Burger King commercials xD)

[WhiteWings]

If people soul sleep (which I am generally an advocate of)

Lots of verses seem to support soulsleep. I can accept that.
What is harder to accept is that Jesus was really totally dead then.
Unless Jesus was 100% normal human (not true IMO) it means (part of God) was dead. So not eternal.
Very hard to believe for me. Very problematic.


John 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
If "I" is dead it can't do any rebuilding.
For me that is the strongest anti soul sleep verse I know.
But.... it's comparing human souls to a Godly soul. Different class.

[Tim B]

If people soul sleep (which I am generally an advocate of)

Lots of verses seem to support soulsleep. I can accept that.
What is harder to accept is that Jesus was really totally dead then.
Unless Jesus was 100% normal human (not true IMO) it means (part of God) was dead. So not eternal.
Very hard to believe for me. Very problematic.


John 2:19  Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
If "I" is dead it can't do any rebuilding.
For me that is the strongest anti soul sleep verse I know.
But.... it's comparing human souls to a Godly soul. Different class.

Yeah man, I'm not sure about that either. I wondered about it too. Plus, how could God preach to the dead if he and them were in "soul sleep"? Seems a bit of a problem, but ya know, I'm not sure.

[lsmann2]

I think your example is spot on to the subject. Once we are granted the belief to see the wonderful plan God has for the ages, many of the verses we've read for years take on an entirely new and deeper meaning.  :thumbsup:

Lee