Just what do you mean - Born Again?

[darryl]

i prefer 'born from above'..'born again' has negative connotations for me..reminds me of those TV evangelists selling religion by trumping 'u can be born again !!!' and asking for huge donations etc

[Mickiel]

In Luke 16: 16 : the law and the prophets we're until John , since that time the Kingdom of God is preached. , And every man presses  to it. They press their way forcibly , seeking, pushing,  they snatch it away , to bring it here now. Under their own terms. They can't get in now , so the spiritualize the process , and say "Look it's in me.They are completely blind to it..The violence of it.

[Mickiel]

i prefer 'born from above'..'born again' has negative connotations for me..reminds me of those TV evangelists selling religion by trumping 'u can be born again !!!' and asking for huge donations etc

Greetings 
It the way of deception to feed into the "Give it to me now syndrome". and Satan  can broadcast any kind of deception with impunity. That's the loudmouth  in the world.. The truth is distorted first by believer's , you get them confused then half the battle is won.  I can ask one or two of them to explain to me how they are born again now , in direct violation of what Jesus taught in John 3. They either run and hide, very few offer meaningful debate , further ignoring the biblical teachings of how brethren can discuss all things. I love the brethren so I'll be here willing to explain my views ( especially if given me a minimum of 10 pages or so.

[jabcat]

Sometimes people don't "run and hide", but instead perhaps don't want to struggle.  I admit I don't understand it FULLY, but I suggest this is a more multi-faceted issue.  Part of that may be because it actually has different nuances and meanings, depending on the verse, situation, and context.

In some places kingdom of God/heaven appears to mean when "reassumes total rule"/is "All in All", and yes, even when we're "in heaven".  However, in other places it appears to mean "knowing God now through faith in Jesus Christ, living in His Spiritual presence/in communion with Him, being submitted and experiencing righteousness, peace and joy".  One size does not fit all.

It's been noted several times that the phrase "born again" actually means in the original languages as "born from above".  I.e., again, knowing God through Jesus - "passing from death to life", being spiritually renewed.  So again, in one place it MAY be used to mean the literal passing from this body into the spiritual body - although I believe Jesus very well may have also meant the spiritual new birth/born from above as well.     

Then again, as previously noted, the phrase is used elsewhere to clearly mean "the new relationship with God through belief in Jesus, here and now, in this earthly life".     I Peter 1:22  "Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. 23For you have been born again not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."     And, I Peter1:3  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,".

Anyway, I think those are some thoughts to consider. 

:dsunny: :Peace2:

[Mickiel]

Sometimes people don't "run and hide", but instead perhaps don't want to struggle.  I admit I don't understand it FULLY, but I suggest this is a more multi-faceted issue.  Part of that may be because it actually has different nuances and meanings, depending on the verse, situation, and context.

In some places kingdom of God/heaven appears to mean when "reassumes total rule"/is "All in All", and yes, even when we're "in heaven".  However, in other places it appears to mean "knowing God now through faith in Jesus Christ, living in His Spiritual presence/in communion with Him, being submitted and experiencing righteousness, peace and joy".  One size does not fit all.

It's been noted several times that the phrase "born again" actually means in the original languages as "born from above".  I.e., again, knowing God through Jesus - "passing from death to life", being spiritually renewed.  So again, in one place it MAY be used to mean the literal passing from this body into the spiritual body - although I believe Jesus very well may have also meant the spiritual new birth/born from above as well.     

Then again, as previously noted, the phrase is used elsewhere to clearly mean "the new relationship with God through belief in Jesus, here and now, in this earthly life".     I Peter 1:22  "Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. 23For you have been born again not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."     And, I Peter1:3  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,".

Anyway, I think those are some thoughts to consider. 

:dsunny: :Peace2:
[/quote

If a believer can be born again in the flesh , Christ is already ressurected , explain to me why important features like Imperishable , undefiled , unfading are kept away from the believer in heaven?

Also explain to me in 1Pet.1 , if there are born again believers walking this earth now using corruptable bodies of flesh that is fading and perishing?

[jabcat]

I wouild say because there are different usages of the term in scripture, depending on the context and intent of user. 

To me Peter obviously says it has occurred for the believer in the sense he mentions (born from above, spiritually renewed, passed from death to life in Christ - Paul called it "if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation").  So if Jesus meant something different/further (immortality), then that's at least 2 different contexts/usages. 

:2c:

[jabcat]

To really try to directly answer your question;  I believe there is a spiritual new birth (born from above through faith in Jesus Christ, a free gift when it's each one's time) that leaves us in this life still in bodies of clay, battling the flesh (sinful nature -carnality), and seeking to walk according to the Spirit (obedience, surrender) until;  we are given the bodily new birth (immortality - per Paul, "to wit, the redemption of our bodies").  To my understanding, 2 distinct processes, with one must needs to occur before the other.

[Mickiel]

To really try to directly answer your question;  I believe there is a spiritual new birth (born from above through faith in Jesus Christ, a free gift when it's each one's time) that leaves us in this life still in bodies of clay, battling the flesh (sinful nature -carnality), and seeking to walk according to the Spirit (obedience, surrender) until;  we are given the bodily new birth (immortality - per Paul, "to wit, the redemption of our bodies").  To my understanding, 2 distinct processes, with one must needs to occur before the other.

Greetings

I understand somewhat,  the interpretation of having a new spiritual understanding, as itself being born again. I just interpret Jesus in John 3: 3-8, as the standard for understanding. Once Jesus or the Father has given a view,  all other biblical writers can only comment on it , never change it. Jesus said a human must be born of water and of spirit , in order to just see be the Kingdom of God. To see it spiritually,which is a higher understanding and be born of water i think is a higher understanding, or a higher baptism.  And one must be born again , or an entirely whole new existence, or new birth, then and only then can he enter the Kingdom of heaven.
Jesus knew many of his followers would marvel at this truth , or be filled with wonder or astonished at it. He then makes it even more clear in vs.8,  "The wind blows where it listeth , and you can hear the sound but you cannot tell where it comes from, so it is with one who born of the spirit. Jesus was trying to convey that one who is born again cannot be seen with the human eye. I see no other way to interpret that. But hey, i'm all ears. But I already know that there is no higher understanding that engulfs Christ. If anyone knows  a higher understanding than Christ, well let's have it!

This I got to see.

[jabcat]

Thanks for the kind input.  :)

I figure we'll all understand it perfectly some day.     In the meantime, pieces at a time as we seek and He gives to us - and always looking to Him. 

:dsunny:

[Mickiel]

Thanks for the kind input.  :)

I figure we'll all understand it perfectly some day.     In the meantime, pieces at a time as we seek and He gives to us - and always looking to Him. 

:dsunny:

Amen. Peace.

[Mickiel]

It is my prayer that the Lord make you love 💖 increase , and that until it overflows in knowledge for each other and for everyone else as it does for you. This is a wonderful way , very, very fulfilling. And it is a painful experience for with much wisdom comes much sorrow. The more knowledge , the more grief.i know that God will enlarge your righteousness, no matter how wrong any of us have been. There is a covering over you, the Lord bless between me and you , and Shield our conscience from the darkness which prevails in this world. As we travel through our learning, love each other, love and love those you don't even know.

Listen, everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. So in our learning about being born again , I pray God begins that journey with love. Peace.

[Mickiel]

It is my prayer that the Lord make you love 💖 increase , and that until it overflows in knowledge for each other and for everyone else as it does for you. This is a wonderful way , very, very fulfilling. And it is a painful experience for with much wisdom comes much sorrow. The more knowledge , the more grief.i know that God will enlarge your righteousness, no matter how wrong any of us have been. There is a covering over you, the Lord bless between me and you , and Shield our conscience from the darkness which prevails in this world. As we travel through our learning, love each other, love and love those you don't even know.

Listen, everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. So in our learning about being born again , I pray God begins that journey with love. Peace.

I believe we can be "Born of God", which is the embedment of the Holy Spirit , while in the flesh and is not a new birth. Would you be willing, anyone, to make a few list for me? Biblical list. First, can you list for me any biblical character who said they are born again? Now a second list, any biblical character who taught being born again. Lastly the main scriptures the Bible uses on the subject.

[Mickiel]

Well let's make a study of it , join in as you wish. I mentioned the phraseology "Born of God", and it's different than being born again but closer to it.1John 5:4-12. Whoever is born of God overcomes the world ; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith . This is reachable. The characteristics listed are doable .Faith, love, overcoming sin , You come by water, blood of Christ and the Spirit. Okay so far we can run these bases.  As we believe the witness of God. Everything so far is doable, until we get to verse 18: we know that whoever is born of God does not sin , but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and the wicked one touches him not. Being born of God I Believe is having his spirit remain with you and in you. This is the only possible way to not sin as a human, you are begotten of God and that keeps you clean until you are born again. It says the wicked one cannot even touch you, ( or manipulate you),. All this , again I believe, are future tense to take place in those called and anointed by God. God has come and given them understanding. These will be some strong knowledgeable , dynamic individuals who will be the nucleus of the final Church to come in obedience to the doctrine of Christ, which is simply the teachings of Christ.

So it's more possible to be born of God and be in the flesh , albeit only a limited amount of believers will walk this path.In 1John 3:9 notice and mark this well . Whoever is born of God does not committ sin , for "His Seed  remains in him and he cannot sin because of God. This is power embedded into the believer, John 1:12, power to become a son of God . Let me say this about Jesus and truly having the holy spirit. In John 1: 33, John said that you will see the Spirit descending , and "Remaining" on him, it never leaves. This is the BEST way to know you have God's spirit , it will come to visit you one day, and it will remain  with you.
.

[Mickiel]

To be "Born of God" is a most interesting reality to consider. There are many "Births" in scripture, like the ones in John 1:13," which were born not of blood or the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man, but "Of God". These humans couldn't do it to themselves , it requires the power of God for you to be directly exposed to the power of God. Vs. 12 ," But as many as received him , to them gave he power to become the Sons of God, even to them who believed on his name." This could be two separate groups; those who are gifted this and then those who believe it. Believers are always a special group , but it's that other group that many cannot see. The real needy group. One could say most of humanity. But what we are concerning ourselves with here is a group  that has not yet been transfigured.

Transfigured and Born Again are the same thing in my view. "A complete change of form or appearance into a more beautiful or spiritual state. Matt.17:2, Mark 9:2-3 and Luke. Again, I would argue that transfiguration is being born again.A New Birth, a complete change of form  , from flesh into spirit.

[Mickiel]

The "Transfiguration born again ", is by far the most dynamic New Births recorded..such as in Matthews 17:1-2 And after six days Jesus takes Peter , James and John his brother on a mountain for privacy. Apart from people.and he Transfigured  before them. And his face did shine as the Sun. And his raiment was white as the light.And they witness Moses and Elias , kind of like a special treat for the disciples.  Here we are Witnesses to these other wise invisible things.humans seeing people were once  flesh and blood.

.    .

[Mickiel]

I am fund of using the symbolism of the butterfly, its original form was pupa  , and after metamorphosis , it is transformed into a butterfly. The significance of the metamorphosis is change ,   and oh what a spectacular change it is . One of the most beautiful . The change is permanent and powerful. Look at the pupa before the change too butterfly , this is total transformation. The closet example in nature that I have seen. It's very similar to the new birth .

[Mickiel]

I am fund of using the symbolism of the butterfly, its original form was pupa  , and after metamorphosis , it is transformed into a butterfly. The significance of the metamorphosis is change ,   and oh what a spectacular change it is . One of the most beautiful . The change is permanent and powerful. Look at the pupa before the change too butterfly , this is total transformation. The closet example in nature that I have seen. It's very similar to the new birth .

The part of the salvation new birth that may be inserted into your explanation of being born again is the suffering and pain of flesh to Spirit ,(  pupa to butterfly ),  again we can draw certain simultaneous comparison to the human to spirit being. The pupa is first living an inactive immature life , stuffed between larva and adult chrysalis. A cocoon is the silk casing used for the butterfly pupa. A moth caterpillar spins around it before it turns into a pupa. Some believers investigation of the why's and why nots of God, may rightfully ask why humans must suffer before being born again , can see the whole picture and rejoice in the suffering, knowing it's a part of the greatest creation in life.

[Mickiel]

The new birth and it's significance is about change. Reactive change , Anticipated change , Planned change,. incremental change , operational change, strategic change and Kingdom management is about  wonder change.

[Mickiel]

Salvation is the foundation of the New Birth and change. We cannot measure how long is forever in God's kingdom , but that forever is on the  brink of change. For ancient times past heaven has no doubt had magnifying majestic events, but the dawn of mankind heralds  The Fathers personal involvement of a totally new direction for his kingdom.

[Mickiel]

In Matt.:13, "For thine is the kingdom", under scores that the kingdom will last as long as God does. The kingdom is God's desire impressing God's will. In Matt. God desires to have his own children to populate heaven. The new birth is the beginning of that. In Ezekiel 36:26 In this we become the children of God. First in the flesh and then a new spirit. Jesus himself became flesh for our future. Then he became a spirit. After he completed God's work on earth , he left and promised to return. The newness of the new kingdom will be astonishing.

[Mickiel]

In 1Pet, 5:11 to him be the power forever and always

[Mickiel]

In 1Pet, 5:11 to him be the power forever and always

The earth is the lord's and everything that fills it up, the land, the animals and all humans or all flesh. Ps.24 , all these belong to God. All flesh will soon be obsolete. Salvation will be known by all and given to all. Wow!

[Mickiel]

A better example of being born from above , is the manner and amount of those being born from above . Such as John 12:32-33, where Jesus prophecy "If I be lifted up from the earth , I will draw all men to me." This will be mass new birth all over this world. And most likely it will be instantaneous. It will be a truly stunning event. This will not be a free will event, no one will be asked to come , and no one will be left out. The conscious mind of any opposition will be quickly dealt with in whatever manner is necessary.

[Mickiel]

So to sum up my humble view of those who favor being born again , I think is cautious optimism at best. And should be approached as such. God does not come down here weekly to address us with a megaphone.  So I find Jesus teaching on it in John 3: 3-8. In verse 11 he said we speak that we know.

[Mickiel]

So to sum up my humble view of those who favor being born again , I think is cautious optimism at best. And should be approached as such. God does not come down here weekly to address us with a megaphone.  So I find Jesus teaching on it in John 3: 3-8. In verse 11 he said we speak that we know.

Again Jesus dialog with Nicodemus in John 3 is just stunning. He said we speak that we know. N vs 12 "If I have told you earthly things , and you believe not, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things? He's trying to help them understand that the new birth is from above , and no flesh has ascended up to heaven. If Jesus would have taught them the new birth takes place on earth, they would have believed him. Why? Because they were earthy minded, as many are to this day.

In these times believers are either swallowing things they think is right, or they remain silent because they don't know if what they speak is true. So like little puppies they lay on each other until the mother moves them. But the Father and Jesus love us so much , no matter what we believe or understand. , They have us covered with professional love.