Tentmaker Forum

 I get those "Somethings not right here ", goose bumps when I hear believers talk about themselves being born again. It's like they have crowned themselves king's before the time. Along with the thirst for righteousness  , should be the correctness  of being right. You give the eager  believer a pistol , he pulls the trigger without knowing if the gun is loaded. The timing of being born again I think is being rushed. Oh I believe in being born again but I don't think that happens in the flesh.
In 1Corinth. 4:6-8 Paul discussed an interesting principal , strong self righteous belief which can , vs 6- lead you To think of yourself above that which is written.  He warns that this way of thinking makes you different from others. And, vs 8,  you can become so full of yourself, that we think of ourselves as being Kings without the rest of the brethren , Kings before the time. But the scripture promises that, so it's one of these topics that has a strong pacification of self. It's like trying to take candy from a child; they say "No , you gave it to me and I want it now. Being born again is one of the biggest sweets in scripture 💕😂. Let us then consider the topic with strong desire to be correct.

Jesus in John 3: 3-8 Jesus teaches in verse 3  that except a man be born again , he cannot see the Kingdom of God. So to those who claim to be born again, explain to us  how the Kingdom of God looks. We cannot see it unless your born again. Right off the scripture is making it difficult to claim your born again because I can rightly challenge you to explain what the Kingdom of God looks like.

In verse 5 , Jesus states that except a man be born of water and of spirit that he cannot even enter the Kingdom of God  Here is Jesus biggest clue and helpful insight for believers . In vs 6 , Jesus says that which is born of flesh IS flesh, that which is born of Spirit IS Spirit. You can't have it both ways . A born again human is no longer human, or flesh. The truly born again believer is now a spirit being. You cannot be both born again and walking in a body of flesh.

In John 3:8 Jesus compared the wind blowing, we can hear that sound , but we don't know where it comes from, or where it's going, back then Jesus meant that we can't see it because it's invisible. So it is with a born again believer, they cannot be seen by the physical eye. Born again means just that, you were in a body of flesh, now your a totally different creature, a whole new being.

It would be a stretch of uncanny  twisting to find anyone in the Old testament who walked this earth after being born again. In the New testament maybe one person walked this earth after being born again. Other than Christ there are none. None that I can see then or now . If we can see you , then your not born again.

There may be multiple facets, multiple things to consider;  but one way I see it is, being spritually renewed.  "Passed from death (spiritual) to life (spiritual)".  "He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Lots to consider, but there is kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven.

In one place Paul said the kingdom of God is "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit".   :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on February 21, 2022, 03:47:04 AM
There may be multiple facets, multiple things to consider;  but one way I see it is, being spritually renewed.  "Passed from death (spiritual) to life (spiritual)".  "He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Quote


Yes I believe this, but being spiritually renewed is not being born again. Being spiritually renewed is getting charge up, or like getting a tune up. There will be those who will not have to see death, but even those must be born again. There is no aging process in the kingdom. To be born again you must first die, we suffer with him 2Tim.2:12  , we die with him 2Tim. 2;11, were buried with him Rom.6:4, we rise with him, Col. 2:12.
To pretend to be new creatures without the death of the old creature is unreasonable. 1John 5:18, whoever is born of God does not sin.

Again 2 Tim. 2:10-11,"Therefore I endure all things for the elect sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. One of the more powerful things we will endure is death. You're not a coward if you pray for those positions that will pass death and move on into life.  It still, vs 11, It's a faithful staying , "For if we be dead with him , we shall also live with him. Death is part of the equation to life eternal or we can say death is part of salvation ,part of the new birth. The second death is the death of first death. So with salvation will also be a death. That first death is the target for entrance into eternal life.

I won't go there but really being born again is a mistranslation of the Greek for being "Born from above". And even that can refer to water baptism. We don't need water baptism to be born again. When you are born again you will never sin anymore..
1Pet. 1:22-23 , you have been purified , born again , it is not of corruptible seed but of incorruption by the word of God forever. This kind of power will just wipe out all sin forever.

We're only human beings so some of us will seek the higher ground And
Try to avoid death. We want to be called ,. Chosen  and never die. And hey, it is possible, it is biblical.  Good fortune to those who try. Or is it God who dicides that?

Even those who will not see death must be born again. 1Corinth..15:51through 58, all of us will not die, but we shall all be changed. That s being born again, being changed from flesh to spirit. That  change must take place.it is a transference from flesh to spirit. That change is the new birth.

I do have a request to make that will help me understand what I am currently blind too. Please provide a list of any OT characters who were born again. Any follower of God that claimed to be born again. Or the NT.  Any disciples then Apostles who were born again.

Would someone step up and explain how the Kingdom of God looks, Jesus taught in John 3:3 that unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. Peter taught when your born again your Imperishable , well I  will not ask you to take a. Bullet, requires too much faith to try that . But give us ,by the grace you have, how we can be saved.

That which is born of spirit is already a spirit. This stuff is exciting, people need to know

And these are just to help believers who are asleep. I have my pride and all
,  but I would rather you help me than to pass me by. You can't convert people but you can be a " Dream Weaver." These are hard times to walk in , especially if your alone. Satan has people scared to death of dying . I was one of them. Death is simply sleep.

Quote from: Mickiel on February 21, 2022, 12:55:13 PM
Again 2 Tim. 2:10-11,"Therefore I endure all things for the elect sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. One of the more powerful things we will endure is death. You're not a coward if you pray for those positions that will pass death and move on into life.  It still, vs 11, It's a faithful staying , "For if we be dead with him , we shall also live with him. Death is part of the equation to life eternal or we can say death is part of salvation ,part of the new birth. The second death is the death of first death. So with salvation will also be a death. That first death is the target for entrance into eternal life.

I won't go there but really being born again is a mistranslation of the Greek for being "Born from above". And even that can refer to water baptism. We don't need water baptism to be born again. When you are born again you will never sin anymore..
1Pet. 1:22-23 , you have been purified , born again , it is not of corruptible seed but of incorruption by the word of God forever. This kind of power will just wipe out all sin forever. Because it's a stain. A nasty hurtful stain.it will make you feel like God is not with you. And so off  we go weak, carnal and now your a conjestion Being more hard on yourself than sin is.Your right at that kingdom place door. With your head in your hands.


Well you'd best get up and wash those hands,. salvation is not about anyone but you first. There is something about you and me  and us! God predetermined you for life in this day and time. Because he needed you in this whirlwind of evil. Modern day sin is rough and tuff. People going nuts, the church getting idolized, and fear has raped your peace.  The people said to the believer ,"mister your nuts.

I enjoyed the reading but   remember Jesus telling Nicodemus you must be born again and agree it is born from above by the HOLY SPIRIT,  as you said .
Jesus to me by example really loved His Father and was Born from above and done the SAME works of the Father to Honor and glorify Him and make him proud to call him His son .
Jesus explained that in John 8  The Children of the Devil
?43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!?

1 john 2 Do Not Love the World
14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world?the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life?is not from the Father but from the world.?

We carry in us all the corruptible image, first born in Adam all die and in Christ shall be made alive and this is the incorruptible image /Word of God.

The serpent lied in the garden to Eve by saying you shall not die , that was a LIE .Making him a murderer of the innocent from that tempting .
Jesus being the  Way and truth and the Life said  , John 8:24 told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins." no one can come to the Father except though Him .
But  those whom die in Christ  rise first . 1 Thess 4 The Return of the Lord
?15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.?

Makes me wonder what the great cloud of witnesses ALIVE TO GOD means exactly .


Just another example to consider was Abraham by faith considered his body as good as dead already . 
the temptation to sin was thwarted by that kind of faith in God before Christ Jesus come to speak so openly in the new testament.[last by My Son ] Hebrews  11On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God?s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.?


      making Abraham the father of faith ,a type of father figure spoken of in 1 John 2known from the beginning .

We have love the truth above all things being born again is being born of truth that sets us free .   

Time constraints keep me from going any further, but enjoyed speaking about the Lord again . I have thought of being born again and what it means to not get tangled up in lies that bind us and keep us from true salvation . :HeartThrob:

What Jesus described in  John 3  is a total new birth, you are no longer human.
New knowledge is not a new birth. A great misunderstanding has tried to combine having a new understanding and being born again.

I was further reading and it was shown that we shouldn't love the world in 1John 2 we are shown love not the world, which strongly is rebuked in. John. 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave it the greatest gift conceivable , Jesus came here because God loves the world.

Quote from: rosered on February 23, 2022, 10:12:49 PM

I enjoyed the reading but   remember Jesus telling Nicodemus you must be born again and agree it is born from above by the HOLY SPIRIT,  as you said .
:HeartThrob:

Good to see you again rosie :)

Here's something I'll plug into the discussion from "bible verse study";

"ανωθεν (anothen), the original Greek word translated ?again,? more commonly means ?from above? or ?from on high? - i.e., from heaven. Jesus is saying that Nicodemus ?cannot see the kingdom of God? (John 3:3) because he has not received spiritual birth from heaven - i.e., from God."

Quote from: Mickiel on February 24, 2022, 01:20:09 AM
What Jesus described in  John 3  is a total new birth, you are no longer human.
New knowledge is not a new birth. A great misunderstanding has tried to combine having a new understanding and being born again.

  Born of Spirit  , Yes ,  right .., ?Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ?You must be born again.?.

the washing of the water of the Word  and Spirit of Life ..


I was further reading and it was shown that we shouldn't love the world in 1John 2 we are shown love not the world, which strongly is rebuked in. John. 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave it the greatest gift conceivable , Jesus came here because God loves the world.

I do not see it as a rebuke  at all.
God is LOVE  so He loves unconditionally
  we as   humans do not undertand the depths of love and God  , born again from above  is just beginning to grasp  any kind of wisdom .




Good to see you again rosie :)

Here's something I'll plug into the discussion from "bible verse study";

"ανωθεν (anothen), the original Greek word translated ?again,? more commonly means ?from above? or ?from on high? - i.e., from heaven. Jesus is saying that Nicodemus ?cannot see the kingdom of God? (John 3:3) because he has not received spiritual birth from heaven - i.e., from God."


    Yes , Thank you it is born from above   , many other  scriptures confirm this  fact /truth   :HeartThrob:

There are certain scriptures that cannot be bargained with , when Jesus described what is being born again in John 3rd chapter, this cannot be challenged. In scripture if it's God speaking, it no longer matters what other writers have said. The same counts for Jesus , they trump all things written. Jesus described being born again, to be simply put, in easy to understand terms , the human In the flesh is changed totally into a spirit.

I would recommend reading the 8th  chapter of Romans.

Romans 8 the chapter goes over a lot , particularly how we can live "In the Spirit" ,and that be confused with being born again. 8:1 There is no condemnation to them who are in the spirit, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. Being In the flesh we cannot  please God. Paul continues to cut down the flesh. In vs. 23 the first fruits are a singled group. Noice they have the spirit in them , but the groan within themselves  , Why? They are waiting for the adoption ,the redemption of their Body  evident truth that a believer can have the spirit of God, but are still in the flesh.

I don't have time to dig in and break this down right now, but I believe Paul (and other writings) make a distinction between the flesh (literal, clay) and the flesh (carnality, the "natural" man).  The literal earthly clay will apparently be shed at immortality - while the carnality/"walking in the flesh" can be limited and under subjection by walking in the Spirit (obedience, submission to God) even while here on earth.  Both always present in this life, but the flesh (carnality) doesn't have to be in total rule for the submitted believer.  Paul talked of crucifying his flesh.  I don't believe he was talking about his literal body, but the carnality/stubborn willfullnes (propensity to sin) that lived within him. 

I believe those are important distinctions to make.    :)

In1Pet. 1:3 blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which

Acording to his aboundant mercies "Has begotten us again unto a lively hope by the ressurection of Jesus from the dead that he has begotten us  again, notice all the ,the  things given to a believer in the flesh  , Peter still calls it a inheritance undefiled , fades not away and is being preserved in   heaven.. he does not even discuss being born again.
Why?
It says Jesus has begotten us a second time.

Now, where is our new inheritance? And what's our new inheritance? Vs 4,  to an inheritance incorruptible , an undefiled , it fades not away, reserved in heaven for you.  That is our new body being reserved , when we are placed into that body, we are born again. Any believer who states and believes that they are born again now, they are saying that they are living an incorruptible , undefiled life right now and have somehow gotten it from the reserved plate in heaven. You are also telling yourself and others, that you are not fading away, or dying, ever again. That contridiction is seen again in vs 5, who are kept by the power of God through faith into salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Oh but you take these into yourself  , right now your born again. There is nothing for God to reveal in the last days of this physical life. You are Kings before the time.

Well why do some believe this born again is in the flesh? Well because it's attractive. Aluring. Like sticking your hand in the bottle, now your belief is stuck. Oh but how good it must feel believing you have removed your inheritance from heaven, and changed the incorruptible to be living in your corruptible flesh.

In 1Pet.1:23-24, Being born again not of corruptible seed , or being in the flesh , but incorruptible by the word of God, for all flesh is like grass and it fades away.  The temptation is like your pupa has transferred itself into butterfly , right now and your not fading away. Or dying.

Now, what is inheritance , because it's already ours and being reserved in heaven? It's not a piece of paper contract, that will fade. Its not land or property. I say it's a new spirit body , it's your new body that cannot fade away, kept by the power of God through faith uno salvation. What else can be eternal , without sin ,  is kept by the power of God and has salvation ; Why it's describing another you. Your new body.

It's not land or property,  your birthright is being preserved . Your new birth. IT will be the reception of some new kind of spiritual genetic , that we don't now know. An instant transmission of God's own life essence , taking your conscience and placing it into your new self. Some of the qualities of our parent God, now living in you. You will never sin again. A stunning powerful  existence , don't fool yourself with a misunderstanding here.  A human cannot have this in the flesh. God bless you , I hope this can begin to be understood.

i prefer 'born from above'.... :gimmefive:

Quote from: darryl on March 02, 2022, 03:13:26 PM
i prefer 'born from above'.... :gimmefive:

I like the phraseology "Born from above." It makes sense. If only some believers could make more sense of scriptures. I have said our spirit bodies have already been created and preserved in heaven. They are in safe places and will not deteriate. That makes sense . When Christ returns and many shall be changed, in a moment , in the twinkling of an eye,[ or very fast,), the phraseology the bible keeps using is we "Put on incorruption," we put it on because its already made. 1Corinth.
15:51-54. It makes more sense to change our consciousness and put it inside a new body, than to change an old body to a new one. Does that make sense? I mean do I reason like a lunitic or does it make sense?

Quote from: darryl on March 02, 2022, 03:13:26 PM
i prefer 'born from above'.... :gimmefive:

Yes Darryl, that's actually the original Greek for "born again";  born from above.

Strong's indicates;  313/anagenn?ō ("born again, from above") is used  in the NT in (1 Pet 1:3,23)-  referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth).



So connecting to the OP;  I BELIEVE/UNDERSTAND it as, that elsewhere Paul explains what getting our new body means;  "to wit, the redemption of our bodies". 

I see him as describing salvation as the initial renewal of the spirit (born again/from above), the salvation of the soul (sanctification, "growing in grace and knowledge") and then "finally, the redemption of our body" (when we are given immortality).

I imagaine others have other insight and can add to that understanding :)

:dsunny:

What do our new spirit bodies look like? 1Corinth. 15:49 , And as we have borne the image of the earthy, or human, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly,or have similar features of heavens population. Such as firefly eyes, hair white like wool. Skin like emeralds. Your not born again if you have not been changed , or if you still " The natural man", or earthy , or human 1Corintth. 15:46-48.  The first man Adam, was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickened spirit  We prefer the language "Born from above", because the second man is the Lord from heaven.

If you can be killed your not born again . If you had toothache last night, your not born again . If your still human , with blood in your body , you have not inherited the kingdom of God yet your inherited body is already made and only your Spirit will inherit that. The inheritance is that new body, born again to be yours forever

Jesus Christ was sent to the House of Israel (mainly Jews) Mat 15:24. The words He spoke were for His own people, not to the gentiles (nations). It was the Apostle Paul who preached the gentiles and to some Jews who would listen with a message quite different from those which the 12 Apostles taught. Christ spoke to Nicodemus saying you must be born again. To be born again as Christ described it is to be as He became after He was raised from the tomb. Although now a spirit Being, He could manifest Himself in human form if He wanted as He did to His disciples (Mark 16:12 and Mark 16:14). This physical appearance had flesh and bones but no blood. So it will be for those resurrected into the Kingdom of the Lord (Millennium)

ps.s Happy to see a post from rosered and GodisLove

Quote from: joeteekay on March 03, 2022, 05:34:36 AM
Jesus Christ was sent to the House of Israel (mainly Jews) Mat 15:24. The words He spoke were for His own people, not to the gentiles (nations). It was the Apostle Paul who preached the gentiles and to some Jews who would listen with a message quite different from those which the 12 Apostles taught. Christ spoke to Nicodemus saying you must be born again. To be born again as Christ described it is to be as He became after He was raised from the tomb. Although now a spirit Being, He could manifest Himself in human form if He wanted as He did to His disciples (Mark 16:12 and Mark 16:14). This physical appearance had flesh and bones but no blood. So it will be for those resurrected into the Kingdom of the Lord (Millennium)

ps.s Happy to see a post from rosered and GodisLove

Yes very well written on the topic of being born again , however I have problems with your suggestion that Jesus was sent to the house of Israel, not to the gentiles. Yea I have trouble with that.

Hi Mickiel,

I realize what you are saying. Seems to me that Jesus never went beyond the borders of Judea, Galilee and Samaria as did the Apostle Paul who went throughout most of the civilized world at that time with the gospel.

Mat 15:21  Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 
Mat 15:22  And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 
Mat 15:23  But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 
Mat 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 
Mat 15:25  Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 
Mat 15:26  But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 
Mat 15:27  And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 
Mat 15:28  Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. 

Anyway your point is well taken. Always something to discuss from scripture.  :friendstu:

https://bible-history.com/new-testament/galilee-time-of-jesus

Greetings Joeteekay ,

Hope all is well with you. Yes it's always something to discuss about scripture. You have an interesting name , quite unusual. Peace.

So was Jesus preaching limited? Was he sent only to Jews?some buy into this and it's really an attempt to uplift one group over another. Those who do this do not understand their Bible and need to move closer to Christ there is a great truth going on, in 1John 4:14 "We have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be savior to everyone , all are included." Our Savior is multinational and his gospel cannot be limited in a Bible study.believers who get caught up in meaningless conversation that limits Jesus in any kind of way where salvation is concerned , should either ask for a mind that sees salvation , or just back away from the table and study a bit more, you'll eventually see it, it's your destiny to see it. To see all are saved is a stunning salvation. God bless us, we need it

The new birth does not need be instantaneous. , Although it can be , like the thief on the cross next to Christ, he got an everlasting picture to display in the Kingdom on his shelf. Being in Christ is a new beginning that will lead to a new birth . If any man ,( any man does not have religious doctrines that can draw lines which cut men out ). Be in Christ he is a new creature , old thins have passed away, and all things become new.now we are reconciled to Christ himself, something your religion cannot do God was in his Son reconciling the WORLD to himself.

How come this never goes viral on the internet?  God in Christ reconciling the world to himself.the new birth begins here.we now have the ministry of reconciliation. A very important key here.God and Christ reconciling the whole world and not imputing their sins against them.2Corinth.5;17-20. Sin had to be dealt with first and then we "Become "ambassadors for Christ.Now we are nearer to the new birth

The New birth need not be instant, it can begin with reconciliation , or refreshing. Acts 3:19.. and notice that the "Times" of refreshing come from the Lord. This is leading to a New Birth. Making every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy,without holiness no one will see the Lord. To claim you have been born again now is to then claim you can see God now. This ought to weed out a few hard liners. But selfish holiness is amongst the worst to penetrate. Giving God the whole heart reconciliation begins here , you no longer conform to the pattern of this world , but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.In most cases that's like digging through mud. One sister may handle it well, another may have a few problems with reconciliation. If they will not listen try taking a few brothers with you, you may shake them loose from the tight pull of blindness. We need to take a bath to get to
get this stuff off. A holy bath , a baptism of truth.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 05, 2022, 06:44:14 PM
The New birth need not be instant, it can begin with reconciliation , or refreshing. Acts 3:19.. and notice that the "Times" of refreshing come from the Lord. This is leading to a New Birth. Making every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy,without holiness no one will see the Lord. To claim you have been born again now is to then claim you can see God now. This ought to weed out a few hard liners. But selfish holiness is amongst the worst to penetrate. Giving God the whole heart reconciliation begins here , you no longer conform to the pattern of this world , but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.In most cases that's like digging through mud. One sister may handle it well, another may have a few problems with reconciliation. If they will not listen try taking a few brothers with you, you may shake them loose from the tight pull of blindness. We need to take a bath to get to
get this stuff off. A holy bath , a baptism of truth.

I am really quite serious when I say believers who claim they are born again are hard liners. They do not easily let go of what they perceive as rightousness. Let's examine Jesus teachings much closer. John 3:3-8; "Verily, Verily I say to you , except a man be born again , he cannot see the Kingdom of God". He cannot see it's spiritual geographic location. With the human eye , we can look and see the Sun , and that's about 93 million miles. The Moon is 238,855 miles from earth. We can see that far with the naked eye, but we cannot see the Kingdom of God  unless we are born again.Jesus tightens his grip in vs.5 and teaches except a man be born again, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Now the self righteous Pharisee Nicodemus is choking on the truth

Now we cannot see with our eyes or enter with our bodies , the exalted Kingdom of God. Now Jesus , in vs.5-8,  explain the obvious difference between flesh and spirit. That which is born of flesh, is just that- flesh. A human coming from the mother's womb.  They are human with  a human body. Conversely , that which is born of spirit is spirit - they are NOT human. They can see the Kingdom no matter where it is.

Jesus goes further with his teaching , making a clear comparison between the wind and a born again individual, they can't be seen by the human eye. A surgical strike to the coming believers that he knew would attack his teachings. Again simplicity , it takes no theologian to understand this simple truth. But my goodness it shows how believers will grab hold of deception , hold to it so tight,  that they love it. Satan knows how to make humans fall in love with deception.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 05, 2022, 08:27:12 PM

Quote from: Mickiel on March 05, 2022, 06:44:14 PM
The New birth need not be instant, it can begin with reconciliation , or refreshing. Acts 3:19.. and notice that the "Times" of refreshing come from the Lord. This is leading to a New Birth. Making every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy,without holiness no one will see the Lord. To claim you have been born again now is to then claim you can see God now. This ought to weed out a few hard liners. But selfish holiness is amongst the worst to penetrate. Giving God the whole heart reconciliation begins here , you no longer conform to the pattern of this world , but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.In most cases that's like digging through mud. One sister may handle it well, another may have a few problems with reconciliation. If they will not listen try taking a few brothers with you, you may shake them loose from the tight pull of blindness. We need to take a bath to get to
get this stuff off. A holy bath , a baptism of truth.

I am really quite serious when I say believers who claim they are born again are hard liners. They do not easily let go of what they perceive as rightousness. Let's examine Jesus teachings much closer. John 3:3-8; "Verily, Verily I say to you , except a man be born again , he cannot see the Kingdom of God". He cannot see it's spiritual geographic location. With the human eye , we can look and see the Sun , and that's about 93 million miles. The Moon is 238,855 miles from earth. We can see that far with the naked eye, but we cannot see the Kingdom of God  unless we are born again.Jesus tightens his grip in vs.5 and teaches except a man be born again, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Now the self righteous Pharisee Nicodemus is choking on the truth

As far as " anyone who thinks they're born again is a hardliner";  maybe that's just how they understand the scriptures.  Maybe they look at the issue differently.  Maybe they think the kingdom of God isn't talking about "heaven someday", but living now in a new relationship with Jesus in the kingdom now that Jesus said "is in/among you".  Maybe they see that to mean a new spiritual creation - now - can experience what Paul described the kingdom of God as being "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit".

  Someone else - you, me, a Baptist or Pentecostal minister - may have been given a piece of revelation/insight that the person beside them/you/me don't quite have yet have.  Pieces of the puzzle.

Part of the reason we ask here that we post in the spirit of "as I understand, I believe".   :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on March 06, 2022, 06:35:38 AM

Quote from: Mickiel on March 05, 2022, 08:27:12 PM

Quote from: Mickiel on March 05, 2022, 06:44:14 PM
The New birth need not be instant, it can begin with reconciliation , or refreshing. Acts 3:19.. and notice that the "Times" of refreshing come from the Lord. This is leading to a New Birth. Making every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy,without holiness no one will see the Lord. To claim you have been born again now is to then claim you can see God now. This ought to weed out a few hard liners. But selfish holiness is amongst the worst to penetrate. Giving God the whole heart reconciliation begins here , you no longer conform to the pattern of this world , but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.In most cases that's like digging through mud. One sister may handle it well, another may have a few problems with reconciliation. If they will not listen try taking a few brothers with you, you may shake them loose from the tight pull of blindness. We need to take a bath to get to
get this stuff off. A holy bath , a baptism of truth.

I am really quite serious when I say believers who claim they are born again are hard liners. They do not easily let go of what they perceive as rightousness. Let's examine Jesus teachings much closer. John 3:3-8; "Verily, Verily I say to you , except a man be born again , he cannot see the Kingdom of God". He cannot see it's spiritual geographic location. With the human eye , we can look and see the Sun , and that's about 93 million miles. The Moon is 238,855 miles from earth. We can see that far with the naked eye, but we cannot see the Kingdom of God  unless we are born again.Jesus tightens his grip in vs.5 and teaches except a man be born again, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Now the self righteous Pharisee Nicodemus is choking on the truth

As far as " anyone who thinks they're born again is a hardliner";  maybe that's just how they understand the scriptures.  Maybe they look at the issue differently.  Maybe they think the kingdom of God isn't talking about "heaven someday", but living now in a new relationship with Jesus in the kingdom now that Jesus said "is in/among you".  Maybe they see that to mean a new spiritual creation - now - can experience what Paul described the kingdom of God as being "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit".

  Someone else - you, me, a Baptist or Pentecostal minister - may have been given a piece of revelation/insight that the person beside them/you/me don't quite have yet have.  Pieces of the puzzle.

Part of the reason we ask here that we post in the spirit of "as I understand, I believe".   :thumbsup:

I am no different than anyone else here. As I understand I believe.

I sincerely mean everything I believe and write. I believe like Paul did, many  believers are"Kings before the time." In other words they take the Kingdom by force of their belief. They read somewhere that we will "Rule with Christ with an iron hand. So many have read Rev.2:27 , and for years theirs churches taught this stuff with impunity. In some areas it became like developing another type of slavery . You know, the poison of super authority. Creating a new kind of slavery inside of the Kingdom , one man rule over an area. Just another way for man to
Lord it over others.

Oh yes I know some think that they see a new spiritual way , I recognize the spirit as it seems to give itself more and more power.

Perhaps you can excuse my weakness and being out of place

There exist an ugly side even to salvation, in my view it's ugly. In Rev.2:27 , ( the NLT version), "They will rule the nations with an iron rod and smash them like clay pots " . The term "Rod", refers to a Shepard's staff. Jesus is not going to beat his people , nor allow them to beat each other. But some  believers covet that , it's what they would like to do. You know, if a few get out of line , you just get that rod and beat some sense into them. Trained to think this way for years. Heads so swollen with pride and order , they forget that you rule by loving the people. I know I am loosing respect and agreement here, but That's okay, I was not fishing for it anyway. If Jesus chooses some to rule , you best believe it will be done out of love , not some barbarian stick. Goodness.

I think most of a called out person's deceptions will have come from their church experience. I know mine has. They are easy to digest , much harder to exhale. Easier to gain weight , but much harder to loose it. Easier to tell a lie , and harder to admit to it and repent of it. I guess it was different in the Old Testament. Let's see who was born again in the OT? No one I know of off hand. Well who is the first one in the NT?  We can say Jesus , I personally wouldn't say anything after that . You ever notice how it's hard to defend some church doctrine?

Yes a lot of deception has come from inside. Inside churches, inside homes.  In 2Cornth.5: ,the whole chapter really.  Paul is making a case for the new birth here. I. Think he is. "For we know if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved , we have a building of God, a house not made with hands , eternal in the heavens. Paul was referring to an experience not of earth, and he gave "Location", the heavens. In 5:2 he said "Desireing to be clothed", with our house in heaven.. I think Paul was seriously looking ahead to our house 🏠 in the eternal mode , knowing we can't see it or enter it without the new birth.

Now, let's examine vs 4-5 , for we who are in this tabernacle do groan being burdened , not for that we would be unclothed , but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. But God has given us the earnest of the spirit  we'll try to unpack this tomorrow.

Paul says in 2 Corinth.5:1 if our earthly house ( our bodies),  we're to die, we have a house ,( or bodie), not made with hands and it's eternal, that's being born again. Our  human flesh has dissolved , and you have one made in heaven. In our lives with God if we die we are given the earnest of the spirit. A pledge or a deposit is what it is , an earnest payment that is so glorious  it is sealed by God. Protected , fitted , and it is you waiting on both sides of the unique birth.

The debate continues as to what born again means. In a church I once attended there was a saying "so you think your born again hey, well give it the hair pin test (ie - poke your self with a pin and see if you feel it") That is kind of mean but it meant to show that we are still physical while in this flesh. It is true that figuratively we are in the Kingdom as Paul explains  in Col 1:13.

Quote from: joeteekay on March 08, 2022, 09:37:43 PM
The debate continues as to what born again means. In a church I once attended there was a saying "so you think your born again hey, well give it the hair pin test (ie - poke your self with a pin and see if you feel it") That is kind of mean but it meant to show that we are still physical while in this flesh. It is true that figuratively we are in the Kingdom as Paul explains  in Col 1:13.

Yes the debate continues , I hope my views on it are clear. I do not view us as figuratively being ,,"In" the kingdom now. In my understanding the Kingdom is being prepared for us. I do hope the debate is not harmful to anyone. I can imagine trying to take candy from a baby , you just learn to only go so far.

In one sense if certain believers were to figuratively be considered in the Kingdom now , then the Kingdom is corrupt already.1Corinh. 15:50 flesh and blood cannot inherit, or live in it , in the flesh. Meaning you have the property now ,and will share your sin situation with your living. Whew man here is so much canned worms being unpacked with this belief.

The kingdom of God has location. It is a place and it has residents. Is refered to often as "Heaven", Paradise , the world Tomorrow. It is the home of God. You thus can live in it. God's throne is there and millions of mansions and living abodes. Beware of the "I want everything and I want it now", spiritual syndrome. Because it tells me the believer now is the  time , now is the kingdom and the glory. It claims we can have all this spiritually in our flesh.


It's both stunning and cunning how this came to be.

i prefer 'born from above'..'born again' has negative connotations for me..reminds me of those TV evangelists selling religion by trumping 'u can be born again !!!' and asking for huge donations etc

In Luke 16: 16 : the law and the prophets we're until John , since that time the Kingdom of God is preached. , And every man presses  to it. They press their way forcibly , seeking, pushing,  they snatch it away , to bring it here now. Under their own terms. They can't get in now , so the spiritualize the process , and say "Look it's in me.They are completely blind to it..The violence of it.

Quote from: darryl on March 09, 2022, 01:46:03 PM
i prefer 'born from above'..'born again' has negative connotations for me..reminds me of those TV evangelists selling religion by trumping 'u can be born again !!!' and asking for huge donations etc

Greetings 
It the way of deception to feed into the "Give it to me now syndrome". and Satan  can broadcast any kind of deception with impunity. That's the loudmouth  in the world.. The truth is distorted first by believer's , you get them confused then half the battle is won.  I can ask one or two of them to explain to me how they are born again now , in direct violation of what Jesus taught in John 3. They either run and hide, very few offer meaningful debate , further ignoring the biblical teachings of how brethren can discuss all things. I love the brethren so I'll be here willing to explain my views ( especially if given me a minimum of 10 pages or so.

Sometimes people don't "run and hide", but instead perhaps don't want to struggle.  I admit I don't understand it FULLY, but I suggest this is a more multi-faceted issue.  Part of that may be because it actually has different nuances and meanings, depending on the verse, situation, and context.

In some places kingdom of God/heaven appears to mean when "reassumes total rule"/is "All in All", and yes, even when we're "in heaven".  However, in other places it appears to mean "knowing God now through faith in Jesus Christ, living in His Spiritual presence/in communion with Him, being submitted and experiencing righteousness, peace and joy".  One size does not fit all.

It's been noted several times that the phrase "born again" actually means in the original languages as "born from above".  I.e., again, knowing God through Jesus - "passing from death to life", being spiritually renewed.  So again, in one place it MAY be used to mean the literal passing from this body into the spiritual body - although I believe Jesus very well may have also meant the spiritual new birth/born from above as well.     

Then again, as previously noted, the phrase is used elsewhere to clearly mean "the new relationship with God through belief in Jesus, here and now, in this earthly life".     I Peter 1:22  "Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. 23For you have been born again not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."     And, I Peter1:3  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,".

Anyway, I think those are some thoughts to consider. 

:dsunny: :Peace2:

Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2022, 09:54:24 PM
Sometimes people don't "run and hide", but instead perhaps don't want to struggle.  I admit I don't understand it FULLY, but I suggest this is a more multi-faceted issue.  Part of that may be because it actually has different nuances and meanings, depending on the verse, situation, and context.

In some places kingdom of God/heaven appears to mean when "reassumes total rule"/is "All in All", and yes, even when we're "in heaven".  However, in other places it appears to mean "knowing God now through faith in Jesus Christ, living in His Spiritual presence/in communion with Him, being submitted and experiencing righteousness, peace and joy".  One size does not fit all.

It's been noted several times that the phrase "born again" actually means in the original languages as "born from above".  I.e., again, knowing God through Jesus - "passing from death to life", being spiritually renewed.  So again, in one place it MAY be used to mean the literal passing from this body into the spiritual body - although I believe Jesus very well may have also meant the spiritual new birth/born from above as well.     

Then again, as previously noted, the phrase is used elsewhere to clearly mean "the new relationship with God through belief in Jesus, here and now, in this earthly life".     I Peter 1:22  "Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. 23For you have been born again not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."     And, I Peter1:3  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,".

Anyway, I think those are some thoughts to consider. 

:dsunny: :Peace2:
[/quote

If a believer can be born again in the flesh , Christ is already ressurected , explain to me why important features like Imperishable , undefiled , unfading are kept away from the believer in heaven?

Also explain to me in 1Pet.1 , if there are born again believers walking this earth now using corruptable bodies of flesh that is fading and perishing?

I wouild say because there are different usages of the term in scripture, depending on the context and intent of user. 

To me Peter obviously says it has occurred for the believer in the sense he mentions (born from above, spiritually renewed, passed from death to life in Christ - Paul called it "if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation").  So if Jesus meant something different/further (immortality), then that's at least 2 different contexts/usages. 

:2c:

To really try to directly answer your question;  I believe there is a spiritual new birth (born from above through faith in Jesus Christ, a free gift when it's each one's time) that leaves us in this life still in bodies of clay, battling the flesh (sinful nature -carnality), and seeking to walk according to the Spirit (obedience, surrender) until;  we are given the bodily new birth (immortality - per Paul, "to wit, the redemption of our bodies").  To my understanding, 2 distinct processes, with one must needs to occur before the other.

Quote from: jabcat on March 10, 2022, 12:32:12 AM
To really try to directly answer your question;  I believe there is a spiritual new birth (born from above through faith in Jesus Christ, a free gift when it's each one's time) that leaves us in this life still in bodies of clay, battling the flesh (sinful nature -carnality), and seeking to walk according to the Spirit (obedience, surrender) until;  we are given the bodily new birth (immortality - per Paul, "to wit, the redemption of our bodies").  To my understanding, 2 distinct processes, with one must needs to occur before the other.

Greetings

I understand somewhat,  the interpretation of having a new spiritual understanding, as itself being born again. I just interpret Jesus in John 3: 3-8, as the standard for understanding. Once Jesus or the Father has given a view,  all other biblical writers can only comment on it , never change it. Jesus said a human must be born of water and of spirit , in order to just see be the Kingdom of God. To see it spiritually,which is a higher understanding and be born of water i think is a higher understanding, or a higher baptism.  And one must be born again , or an entirely whole new existence, or new birth, then and only then can he enter the Kingdom of heaven.
Jesus knew many of his followers would marvel at this truth , or be filled with wonder or astonished at it. He then makes it even more clear in vs.8,  "The wind blows where it listeth , and you can hear the sound but you cannot tell where it comes from, so it is with one who born of the spirit. Jesus was trying to convey that one who is born again cannot be seen with the human eye. I see no other way to interpret that. But hey, i'm all ears. But I already know that there is no higher understanding that engulfs Christ. If anyone knows  a higher understanding than Christ, well let's have it!

This I got to see.

Thanks for the kind input.  :)

I figure we'll all understand it perfectly some day.     In the meantime, pieces at a time as we seek and He gives to us - and always looking to Him. 

:dsunny:

Quote from: jabcat on March 10, 2022, 09:41:07 PM
Thanks for the kind input.  :)

I figure we'll all understand it perfectly some day.     In the meantime, pieces at a time as we seek and He gives to us - and always looking to Him. 

:dsunny:

Amen. Peace.

It is my prayer that the Lord make you love 💖 increase , and that until it overflows in knowledge for each other and for everyone else as it does for you. This is a wonderful way , very, very fulfilling. And it is a painful experience for with much wisdom comes much sorrow. The more knowledge , the more grief.i know that God will enlarge your righteousness, no matter how wrong any of us have been. There is a covering over you, the Lord bless between me and you , and Shield our conscience from the darkness which prevails in this world. As we travel through our learning, love each other, love and love those you don't even know.

Listen, everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. So in our learning about being born again , I pray God begins that journey with love. Peace.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 11, 2022, 12:21:25 AM
It is my prayer that the Lord make you love 💖 increase , and that until it overflows in knowledge for each other and for everyone else as it does for you. This is a wonderful way , very, very fulfilling. And it is a painful experience for with much wisdom comes much sorrow. The more knowledge , the more grief.i know that God will enlarge your righteousness, no matter how wrong any of us have been. There is a covering over you, the Lord bless between me and you , and Shield our conscience from the darkness which prevails in this world. As we travel through our learning, love each other, love and love those you don't even know.

Listen, everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. So in our learning about being born again , I pray God begins that journey with love. Peace.

I believe we can be "Born of God", which is the embedment of the Holy Spirit , while in the flesh and is not a new birth. Would you be willing, anyone, to make a few list for me? Biblical list. First, can you list for me any biblical character who said they are born again? Now a second list, any biblical character who taught being born again. Lastly the main scriptures the Bible uses on the subject.

Well let's make a study of it , join in as you wish. I mentioned the phraseology "Born of God", and it's different than being born again but closer to it.1John 5:4-12. Whoever is born of God overcomes the world ; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith . This is reachable. The characteristics listed are doable .Faith, love, overcoming sin , You come by water, blood of Christ and the Spirit. Okay so far we can run these bases.  As we believe the witness of God. Everything so far is doable, until we get to verse 18: we know that whoever is born of God does not sin , but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and the wicked one touches him not. Being born of God I Believe is having his spirit remain with you and in you. This is the only possible way to not sin as a human, you are begotten of God and that keeps you clean until you are born again. It says the wicked one cannot even touch you, ( or manipulate you),. All this , again I believe, are future tense to take place in those called and anointed by God. God has come and given them understanding. These will be some strong knowledgeable , dynamic individuals who will be the nucleus of the final Church to come in obedience to the doctrine of Christ, which is simply the teachings of Christ.

So it's more possible to be born of God and be in the flesh , albeit only a limited amount of believers will walk this path.In 1John 3:9 notice and mark this well . Whoever is born of God does not committ sin , for "His Seed  remains in him and he cannot sin because of God. This is power embedded into the believer, John 1:12, power to become a son of God . Let me say this about Jesus and truly having the holy spirit. In John 1: 33, John said that you will see the Spirit descending , and "Remaining" on him, it never leaves. This is the BEST way to know you have God's spirit , it will come to visit you one day, and it will remain  with you.
.

To be "Born of God" is a most interesting reality to consider. There are many "Births" in scripture, like the ones in John 1:13," which were born not of blood or the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man, but "Of God". These humans couldn't do it to themselves , it requires the power of God for you to be directly exposed to the power of God. Vs. 12 ," But as many as received him , to them gave he power to become the Sons of God, even to them who believed on his name." This could be two separate groups; those who are gifted this and then those who believe it. Believers are always a special group , but it's that other group that many cannot see. The real needy group. One could say most of humanity. But what we are concerning ourselves with here is a group  that has not yet been transfigured.

Transfigured and Born Again are the same thing in my view. "A complete change of form or appearance into a more beautiful or spiritual state. Matt.17:2, Mark 9:2-3 and Luke. Again, I would argue that transfiguration is being born again.A New Birth, a complete change of form  , from flesh into spirit.

The "Transfiguration born again ", is by far the most dynamic New Births recorded..such as in Matthews 17:1-2 And after six days Jesus takes Peter , James and John his brother on a mountain for privacy. Apart from people.and he Transfigured  before them. And his face did shine as the Sun. And his raiment was white as the light.And they witness Moses and Elias , kind of like a special treat for the disciples.  Here we are Witnesses to these other wise invisible things.humans seeing people were once  flesh and blood.

.    .

I am fund of using the symbolism of the butterfly, its original form was pupa  , and after metamorphosis , it is transformed into a butterfly. The significance of the metamorphosis is change ,   and oh what a spectacular change it is . One of the most beautiful . The change is permanent and powerful. Look at the pupa before the change too butterfly , this is total transformation. The closet example in nature that I have seen. It's very similar to the new birth .

Quote from: Mickiel on March 14, 2022, 11:04:40 AM
I am fund of using the symbolism of the butterfly, its original form was pupa  , and after metamorphosis , it is transformed into a butterfly. The significance of the metamorphosis is change ,   and oh what a spectacular change it is . One of the most beautiful . The change is permanent and powerful. Look at the pupa before the change too butterfly , this is total transformation. The closet example in nature that I have seen. It's very similar to the new birth .

The part of the salvation new birth that may be inserted into your explanation of being born again is the suffering and pain of flesh to Spirit ,(  pupa to butterfly ),  again we can draw certain simultaneous comparison to the human to spirit being. The pupa is first living an inactive immature life , stuffed between larva and adult chrysalis. A cocoon is the silk casing used for the butterfly pupa. A moth caterpillar spins around it before it turns into a pupa. Some believers investigation of the why's and why nots of God, may rightfully ask why humans must suffer before being born again , can see the whole picture and rejoice in the suffering, knowing it's a part of the greatest creation in life.

The new birth and it's significance is about change. Reactive change , Anticipated change , Planned change,. incremental change , operational change, strategic change and Kingdom management is about  wonder change.

Salvation is the foundation of the New Birth and change. We cannot measure how long is forever in God's kingdom , but that forever is on the  brink of change. For ancient times past heaven has no doubt had magnifying majestic events, but the dawn of mankind heralds  The Fathers personal involvement of a totally new direction for his kingdom.

In Matt.:13, "For thine is the kingdom", under scores that the kingdom will last as long as God does. The kingdom is God's desire impressing God's will. In Matt. God desires to have his own children to populate heaven. The new birth is the beginning of that. In Ezekiel 36:26 In this we become the children of God. First in the flesh and then a new spirit. Jesus himself became flesh for our future. Then he became a spirit. After he completed God's work on earth , he left and promised to return. The newness of the new kingdom will be astonishing.

In 1Pet, 5:11 to him be the power forever and always

Quote from: Mickiel on March 15, 2022, 10:23:11 PM
In 1Pet, 5:11 to him be the power forever and always

The earth is the lord's and everything that fills it up, the land, the animals and all humans or all flesh. Ps.24 , all these belong to God. All flesh will soon be obsolete. Salvation will be known by all and given to all. Wow!

A better example of being born from above , is the manner and amount of those being born from above . Such as John 12:32-33, where Jesus prophecy "If I be lifted up from the earth , I will draw all men to me." This will be mass new birth all over this world. And most likely it will be instantaneous. It will be a truly stunning event. This will not be a free will event, no one will be asked to come , and no one will be left out. The conscious mind of any opposition will be quickly dealt with in whatever manner is necessary.

So to sum up my humble view of those who favor being born again , I think is cautious optimism at best. And should be approached as such. God does not come down here weekly to address us with a megaphone.  So I find Jesus teaching on it in John 3: 3-8. In verse 11 he said we speak that we know.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 16, 2022, 02:17:28 PM
So to sum up my humble view of those who favor being born again , I think is cautious optimism at best. And should be approached as such. God does not come down here weekly to address us with a megaphone.  So I find Jesus teaching on it in John 3: 3-8. In verse 11 he said we speak that we know.

Again Jesus dialog with Nicodemus in John 3 is just stunning. He said we speak that we know. N vs 12 "If I have told you earthly things , and you believe not, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things? He's trying to help them understand that the new birth is from above , and no flesh has ascended up to heaven. If Jesus would have taught them the new birth takes place on earth, they would have believed him. Why? Because they were earthy minded, as many are to this day.

In these times believers are either swallowing things they think is right, or they remain silent because they don't know if what they speak is true. So like little puppies they lay on each other until the mother moves them. But the Father and Jesus love us so much , no matter what we believe or understand. , They have us covered with professional love.

Interesting that Nicodemus came to Jesus by night with his questions. He did not understand the new birth and the phrase "Born again." Jesus kept it simple , teaching that which is born of flesh , well surprise it comes out of the fleshly womb as a fleshy baby. Conversely, (  conversely means a statement or idea which reverses one that has just been made or referred to.) That which is born  again by a Spirit , is itself now a spirit being. My goodness , the simplicity is so misunderstood   that Jesus wanted to teach this himself. It's like me saying that which is born of a cat, is a cat, because animals give birth to animals. Humans give birth to humans. Spirit gives birth to spirit beings. It's academic.

In John 1:33 I have said before that a believer has the Holy Spirit visit them from time to time , or when they have it perminently , the Bible calls that the spirit remaining. It no longer comes and goes , it "Remains". It is an integral part of your life now , and will never leave you. John said in 1:33 we can recognize Jesus because he will be baptized with the Holy Ghost, and you shall see the spirit descending and remaining on him. Having the spirit remaining in you while your still flesh, is being born from above. Yet we must be careful , 1John 3:9 says whoever is "Born of God", does not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him:and he cannot sin, because he is Born of God. So this version of being Born of God is much more powerful IF they are still in the flesh. So I am not sure about the proper interpretation here. The spirit is remaining so their born from above, but to say they cannot sin puzzles me because they are seemingly still human.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 17, 2022, 07:54:56 AM
In John 1:33 I have said before that a believer has the Holy Spirit visit them from time to time , or when they have it perminently , the Bible calls that the spirit remaining. It no longer comes and goes , it "Remains". It is an integral part of your life now , and will never leave you. John said in 1:33 we can recognize Jesus because he will be baptized with the Holy Ghost, and you shall see the spirit descending and remaining on him. Having the spirit remaining in you while your still flesh, is being born from above. Yet we must be careful , 1John 3:9 says whoever is "Born of God", does not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him:and he cannot sin, because he is Born of God. So this version of being Born of God is much more powerful IF they are still in the flesh. So I am not sure about the proper interpretation here. The spirit is remaining so their born from above, but to say they cannot sin puzzles me because they are seemingly still human.

So the spirit remaining and the seed remaining are either similar or the same thing
.

I believe the times of the spirit remaining are yet to come. I know many believers disagree with that, and I understand. I just don't think we understand what having God's spirit remaining will produce for anyone to see it's fruit coming out of you. A very powerful fertilization would be taking place. The ovule of the flowering spirit containing a very powerful embryo which germinates  to produce new perminant fruit 🍓🍑 of the spirit. God's seed is a startling storehouse , perhaps a super plumule which develops things we hold little idea of. A development factory way pass anything we have ever seen.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 17, 2022, 09:09:08 PM
I believe the times of the spirit remaining are yet to come. I know many believers disagree with that, and I understand. I just don't think we understand what having God's spirit remaining will produce for anyone to see it's fruit coming out of you. A very powerful fertilization would be taking place. The ovule of the flowering spirit containing a very powerful embryo which germinates  to produce new perminant fruit 🍓🍑 of the spirit. God's seed is a startling storehouse , perhaps a super plumule which develops things we hold little idea of. A development factory way pass anything we have ever seen.

I am impressed at Acts 2:17 "God says It shall be done in the last days I shall pour out my spirit on everybody. This mass dispensation opens parts of Jesus heart to everyone

Quote from: Mickiel on March 18, 2022, 12:08:47 AM

Quote from: Mickiel on March 17, 2022, 09:09:08 PM
I believe the times of the spirit remaining are yet to come. I know many believers disagree with that, and I understand. I just don't think we understand what having God's spirit remaining will produce for anyone to see it's fruit coming out of you. A very powerful fertilization would be taking place. The ovule of the flowering spirit containing a very powerful embryo which germinates  to produce new perminant fruit 🍓🍑 of the spirit. God's seed is a startling storehouse , perhaps a super plumule which develops things we hold little idea of. A development factory way pass anything we have ever seen.

I am impressed at Acts 2:17 "God says It shall be done in the last days I shall pour out my spirit on everybody. This mass dispensation opens parts of Jesus heart to everyone

I am a firm believer in how God tends to give his spirit out to humans. Nobody can place a numerical speculation and thus limit how God does things. We can study how he has done things. In the giving of his spirit out to humans, he has given his spirit to certain prophets and kings, like David.I see no scriptorial evidence  in the old testament outside of that where God gives his spirit to any group of people. Including Israel.  Fast forward to the new testament and we see God giving out his spirit again to prophets , disciples and small groups of churches.

Fast forward to these times we now live in , I see no evidence of God giving out his spirit to a church. As far as individuals , it's possible, but I have never met any.

Jesus reveals that it's not for you to know  the times or the seasons , which the Father has put in his own power, Acts 1:7-8 , but you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you, and you shall become Witnesses of me. Here is another key to know if you have God's Spirit remaining in you; you will receive power from God himself. We can know and physically feel power that is added to our body, even so we can know when God has added spirit power to you. All the fruit of the Spirit will come out of you. , And you will be a good witness for God.,,,In Acts 4:31 after they were filled with the Spirit they spoke the word of God with boldness!.this does not mean God will have a church that is largely silent and act as if the gospel is their secret. Something has muted these kinds of believers who think speaking the truth is casting pearls on swine. They would rather call people pigs than to share the truth with them. So even anointed people need maturing in the spirit , when given the spirit. It's like someone giving you a bomb. You now have power  but it will need maturing or you will hurt people.

Paul makes some good observations;

1 Cor 3;1-3 " And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as spiritual, but as fleshly- as to babies in Christ; I fed you with milk
                    and not with meat, for you were not yet able, but not yet even now are you able, for you are fleshly, for where there is
                     among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not fleshly and walk in the manner of men?"

1Cor 3;7  " So that neither is he who is planting anything, nor he who is watering, but He Who is giving growth- God"

2 Cor 1;22 " God sealed us and gave us His Spirit as a guarantee."

2 Cor 5;5 " God prepared us and gave us His Spirit as a guarantee."


Gal 4;19 " ...children for whom I am in birth of childbirth until Christ is formed in you."

Eph 4;23 .." ...renewed is the spirit of your mind."

So an indication of this new mind set should be statements like Paul makes to the Philippians;
Phil 3;10 " Know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings."

Peter makes some statement about how to recognise false teachers;

2 peter 2;2,3 " Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned, and they will exploit you
                    with their false words."

2 Peter 2;10 " Those who in polluting lust indulge the flesh and despise authority. Bold and insolent people not afraid to slander
                      angelic majesties."  [ a common modern day spiritual warfare outlook]

2 Peter 2;17,18 " Be on your guard that you are not led astray by the error of these lawless people, speaking arrogant words of vanity
                          they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, promising freedom..."

Jude 1;16 " These are murmurers and complainers, walking after their lusts- and their mouths speaks proud things- showing
                 respect of persons to gain advantage.

Jude 1;19 " These are those who cause divisions and are sensual, not having the spirit."

Seems that to be aware of these things is an indication of being renewed in the mind/born anew.

Greetings,
Paul does have something to offer, I like his thoughts on all things , I believe he had  the    spirit

Quote from: Mickiel on March 18, 2022, 12:05:26 PM
Greetings,
Paul does have something to offer, I like his thoughts on all things , I believe he had  the    spirit

When Paul was addressing the Roman Saints, his message was Universal    and it included us all , even today..in 1Thess.4:8 it is God who gives the spirit. And what does the spirit look like , I think it looks like you. It is to be yours forever. You will "Put it on", and it will fit like a glove. We can't get it too late or to soon. We will be in the Kingdom.

Paul's versions on the new birth are of interest.

So what do you mean "Transfiguration"? It comes from the Latin roots "Trans- ,(  Across), and figura, ( form and shape) it thus signifies a change of form or appearance. I keep seeing  change as one common agreeing point amount the writers. A change of form or appearance.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 18, 2022, 10:32:29 PM
Paul's versions on the new birth are of interest.

So what do you mean "Transfiguration"? It comes from the Latin roots "Trans- ,(  Across), and figura, ( form and shape) it thus signifies a change of form or appearance. I keep seeing  change as one common agreeing point amount the writers. A change of form or appearance.

In Luke 9:29 ,we are blessed to be able to see some of the heavenly garments Jesus was styling; and the fashion of his countenance was altered , not only his clothes changed, his skin and his mood changed. Keep up with these changes and you will see them else where in scripture. His raiment changed and the mood changed from the sadness to the joy. Jesus was getting ready for the party. A party that will shake the heavens and the earth.

Interesting that Jesus gathered with him witnesses to see and record this stunning event. Now notice closer ; and he went up into  a mountain to pray.  And as he prayed,get that , now this is happening while Jesus is praying. As he prayed his fashion changed and  his mood changed. His new raiment was white and shinning.
Everything about Jesus  was changing, he continues to pray ,  yet as he prayed his fashion changed and his raiment changed , his whole countenance had changed. Oohh that's some serious alteration .His old clothes were destroyed and discarded . Jesus now has an   interest in his new birth.

The way Jesus looks now , as far as we know, his clothes are white mostly, , his skin , or if  we can call it that, is very bright. His hair is now white like sheep wool. And his area from his legs and ankles have a dark bronze appearance, some have described it as "Reddish", scriptures do support these.like God , he appears multicolored. They may be changelings .These are the unearthly and being born again may well begin like this.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 19, 2022, 07:14:21 PM
The way Jesus looks now , as far as we know, his clothes are white mostly, , his skin , or if  we can call it that, is very bright. His hair is now white like sheep wool. And his area from his legs and ankles have a dark bronze appearance, some have described it as "Reddish", scriptures do support these.like God , he appears multicolored. They may be changelings .These are the unearthly and being born again may well begin like this.

Rev.1:12-16 is of further discription.  He was clothed from his midsection to down to his feet. . On his chest was a golden garment. His head and hair  color was similar to being  white like wool, and as white as snow. Some of our black brothers should look closer at this, they think it says his hair was like wool texture,  no it was talking about color , even saying It was as white as snow.  His feet was like fine brass , as if they burned them in a furnace. Now those blacks who are looking for a bit of their race in Jesus ,. You are better off using his feet for your argument. Their are several races that can see some similar characteristics, which they should look I see absolutely nothing wrong with race doing as such. His voice had a sound of many waters,  perhaps in a water fall or a storm.


And he was armed with stars in his hand. And out of his mouth was The sound of many waters. Wow

We will look so different ourselves during this happy 😊 joyful 🥰 occasion. In Rev.22/4 , his name shall be in their foreheads. I wonder if that means literally like a tattoo, or just a part of our consciousness. Either way shows a closeness. In vs. 5 another interesting possibility, there will be no night, no need for candles or sunlight , the Lord God gives us light,  and THEY shall reign for ever and ever. Reign with God forever,, Whew just the thought of that possible meaning, it all looks good, salvation is a marvelous wonder.

1Peter 1 and 3rd verse is of interest.  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus  who according to his aboundant mercy  has begotten  us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead. Begotten again.
You can pull-up Bible gateway.com on 1peter 1and 3rd verse and it should give you a large list of how differently this verse is translated . Notice how the AMP
Version hits on it/ most Gradifying.

Read the CEB,may the God and Father of our. Lord Jesus Christ be blessed. On account of his vast mercy.,he has given us new birth, you have been born anew into a living hope through the resserection of Jesus Christ from the Dead.. perfect scriptures , harming no one, helping you and everyone else. So if a believer claims to be born  again then praise God. Love God and love his people and love have mercy that is being like God our living. Love is the balm the physical check up.the check up that men like me will fail. But we have a balm In Gilead, a cure worthy of praise.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 22, 2022, 05:51:36 AM
Read the CEB,may the God and Father of our. Lord Jesus Christ be blessed. On account of his vast mercy.,he has given us new birth, you have been born anew into a living hope through the resserection of Jesus Christ from the Dead.. perfect scriptures , harming no one, helping you and everyone else. So if a believer claims to be born  again then praise God. Love God and love his people and love have mercy that is being like God our living. Love is the balm the physical check up.the check up that men like me will fail. But we have a balm In Gilead, a cure worthy of praise.
[/quote


That we have a black in Gillead, in China it needs a balm, in Russia it needs a balm, the whole world is sick a  it's whole heart faint.

The world is sick, it's whole heart. Faint. The world falls  into sin quickly.

Like a giant lake of unconscious quick sand. The world needs savior.

On the vast of good love. And a vast of good mercy, and a vast of salvation love in bunches. This is a vast walk of life..

The Fact that God can ,and will, do more than we can think or ask is what makes the future literally awesome.

Missed out the more than we can imagine.
Looking at the current movies trying to impress the masses ,and yet they only scratch the surface.

Hello :hiya: I haven?t been here for a while.. I keep forgetting! I?m in UR/CU groups on facebook. I?ve learned UR believers come in all stripes!
    Biggest danger?! Downplaying the written Logos of God. Logos - ?reasoning expressed in words?. God?s reasoning! Why would a believer/follower want to ignore it!? 🍞+🍷=🥳 and ultimately 😇.
    Jesus, the Son, and ?forever first/proto?, the only straight out from God one.. is the prototype! ?We shall be like Him.? ..?Let us (Father and Son) make mankind in our image?. [If the option to stray had been left out of Eden, so would thinking and reasoning ability have to be absent as well. (Surely?) That the option was so visible and placed prominently ?in the middle of the garden? and man and woman and the universe (flesh/matter) were not created until the first bound to occur, rebel thought not only occurred but had ripened into outright nefarious sedition, makes me think our Father wants to get this unavoidable(?) lesson over with. Unavoidable if we are to be endowed with the ability to think, thus sooner or later to make choices - He engineered it so ?all in  heaven and Earth? take this journey all together at once. He?s SUCH a genius, yes?]
     Lately I?ve been thinking of this whole thing as ?the parable of the rotton apple? - and no the apple (surely?) was noT the bad apple in Eden! lol
     Once the apple begins to decompose, will it, or can it reverse its course and become whole, perfect and beautiful? God, it seems to me has left the decomposing apple on the counter for all to see. It is dust to dust. The wage/result of straying/hamartia - ?missing the mark? is death. Straying from God who (surely?) is Life itself, and ?is perfect? (Mt.5:48) therefor makes imperfect to be the opposite to Life. Like a disease which prognosis is dire indeed - namely not being.
    So ?the worm that doesn?t cease? until back to dust, is imperfection, missing the mark of perfection, called sin. And God condemned it - Ro.8:3 - in the flesh/matter - which is all still playing out. Like a very grand drama proving Good from evil/notGood, Life from notLife. ?As a plan of the ages? both life and ?day? of judgment being the court. Ro.3:4 - Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, that You may be proved right in what you say, and You will win Your case in court.? (Popular in some UR circles is a judging of God and the Old Testament - He gets grief for not stopping evil and gets grief for stopping great evils when He did! Being ?perfect? of course he?s done and does all things just as he has and does, in order to bring about the utter best of all possible ?end? results. (The greek word is ?tel? and means ?end-aim? a real ?tel? in this poker game of Life, if I ever heard one, lol.)
   God began pouring out His Spirit/Presence on that Pentecost following the Lord?s brief first advent. Jesus said ?these (not yet saved/still wild weeds/goats) will rise into aionion-kolasis/eonian-correction? Mt.25:46. Some being ?corrected? now, and some during ?the judgment?(upon the ?last great day? the ?8th day? which is ?after the thousand years? Rev.20, ?the rest of the dead rise not until after the thousand years? - of which Jn.7:37 is a glimpse and type of that ?8th day??)
     Any (unlikely) stubborn hold outs after age of correction will be finally purified at the fiery ReGenesis(?) An event, imo, not a ?place? at all! - Rev.21:1-5; 2Pet.3:12-13. ?Meant for Satan and his angels?? As that?s the process required for them? (Jude vs.7 telling us ?the example of aionion hellfire is what happened to Gomorrah and cities.?
   Also popular these days is the idea/teaching that all prophecy has been fulfilled, and along with that, all are now saved - which is worse than the ?all are magically born again at death? belief, oiye!! Victims of genocide, etc, etc, at least deserve their abusers to undergo deep gut wrenching remorse! Weeping, gnashing of teeth and some outer darkness - INITIALLY - during that great ?day?! GWT ?day? being also a great day of review? Pounding/driving home the lesson?
   I?m working on something (brief) for my (pretty much unknown) blog/page on facebook https://www.facebook.com/Inner-Monastery-107763128470962/ I will come back and post here, as it fits, I think, this good, berean discussion/study. :Peace2:
     P.S. amen, what a day of ?lawlessness? we are in these days! The ?class? of lawlessness is predominant? Or it just looks that way? Two fruits maturing and ripening..
     

NJ

Quote from: Ross on March 24, 2022, 10:42:28 AM
Missed out the more than we can imagine.
Looking at the current movies trying to impress the masses ,and yet they only scratch the surface.

You have much to  say here. It's like listening to a speech on differing topics  one that requires the reader to read and study.I like that, make me study.

You seem to want a walk of information that can get you through Eden and back Into  our times , without an event of sin  and destruction, further understanding that God  holds these grounds.He place these  event in motion.

God has taken the most messy and chaotic thing, and given it order! The human psyche. We all walk around in our own reality.. Chaos can get the upper hand. But God has a program!
     NOTE: ?Things? in this verse (Eph.1:10; and also in Rev.21:5) was added to the word ?all? - which in the Greek is the word ?pas? - ?every, all?.? EPH.1:10 reads, ?As a plan for the fullness of time, to bring together all things in Christ--the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth.? ? But actually SHOULD read - ?As a plan/administration for the fullness of time, to bring together all in Christ--the in the heavens and the upon the earth.? (Word for word.)
     All in Christ! ?This is the decree - You are my Son..? Ps.2:7.
     So far I?ve found four outlines of this program/administration of the ages. Let?s call them A, B, C, and D, briefly:
     Outline A - The Weekly Week (lol)
6OOO years of things running their course - oR we would be robots?
   Followed by a Sabbath, a 7th ?day? we call ?the millennium? and the scripture calls ?the thousand years? ? ?aFter which the rest of the dead rise? (Rev.20:5).
   Then is ?the last great day? an ?8th day? - Rev.20:7-13 stretched out over this eighth millennium. John 7:37 being a glimpse of that ?day?? Surely(?) what the Lord called ?aionion kolasis?. Literal translation would read ?eonian correction?. Mt.25:46 - Jesus said ?these (not yet saved/still wild weeds/goats) will rise into aionion-kolasis/eonian-correction?.
     And logically, it?s only after the full ?8th day? that if anyone is found, whose name is not written in the Book of Life, they will be cast to the fiery lake when - 2Pet.3:12-13, Rev.21:1-5 - is a fiery ReGenesis.. ?a new heavens and new Earth? and ?now God will Tabernacle with mankind? Rev.21:5. Which brings me to -
     Outline B - The Fall Holy Days of ancient Israel. The Spring holy days were perfectly fulfilled by the Lord?s first advent, by His death and rising, more fully than is easily seen since there?s three Sabbaths of the week, so three preparation days, both Hebrew and Roman time were used and Passover and 1st day of Unleavened Bread were/are? called interchangeably.
     So logically, the Autumn Holy Days prophecy and are a shadow and type of His long second advent. The Fall holy days (Lev.23) are:
   (1.) TRUMPETS (of Rev. & His physical return at the 7th) - then 10days/1000yrs to (2.) DAY OF ATONEMENT to, and lasting? 500years (represented by 5 days) to (3.) TABERNACLES! ?God will tabernacle with mankind?.. And ?the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow? (Isaiah 11:7).
     Outlines C (& D) - Are in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24,28c ? but(!) with Matthew 13:33 - key word 3 - ?The kingdom is like leaven, which a woman takes and hides in/works into three measures of meal (loaves) UNTIL all is leavened?.
   (Key word 3.) ?For as in Adam, all die, even so in Christ, all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: [#1 of 3] Christ the firstfruits (outline D. barley harvest), afterward [#2]those who are Christ?s at His coming (D. wheat harvest). 24 Then [#3]the end (D. grape harvest) when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He has put an end to all dominion, authority and power ..(including the LAST enemy death, vs.27) 28 ...that God may be all in all.? 
     Answer to a riddle? 2Pet.3:10 and 12-13 being bookend events of the Lord?s second, much longer, advent and presence. Verse 10 being the when of Mt.13:30 - answering so many questions! It being Rev.16:14,15,16. And what?s called his wrath (ire) being cause and effect.

Quote from: marie glen on March 24, 2022, 09:54:40 PM
God has taken the most messy and chaotic thing, and given it order! The human psyche. We all walk around in our own reality.. Chaos can get the upper hand. But God has a program!
     NOTE: ?Things? in this verse (Eph.1:10; and also in Rev.21:5) was added to the word ?all? - which in the Greek is the word ?pas? - ?every, all?.? EPH.1:10 reads, ?As a plan for the fullness of time, to bring together all things in Christ--the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth.? ? But actually SHOULD read - ?As a plan/administration for the fullness of time, to bring together all in Christ--the in the heavens and the upon the earth.? (Word for word.)
     All in Christ! ?This is the decree - You are my Son..? Ps.2:7.
     So far I?ve found four outlines of this program/administration of the ages. Let?s call them A, B, C, and D, briefly:
     Outline A - The Weekly Week (lol)
6OOO years of things running their course - oR we would be robots?
   Followed by a Sabbath, a 7th ?day? we call ?the millennium? and the scripture calls ?the thousand years? ? ?aFter which the rest of the dead rise? (Rev.20:5).
   Then is ?the last great day? an ?8th day? - Rev.20:7-13 stretched out over this eighth millennium. John 7:37 being a glimpse of that ?day?? Surely(?) what the Lord called ?aionion kolasis?. Literal translation would read ?eonian correction?. Mt.25:46 - Jesus said ?these (not yet saved/still wild weeds/goats) will rise into aionion-kolasis/eonian-correction?.
     And logically, it?s only after the full ?8th day? that if anyone is found, whose name is not written in the Book of Life, they will be cast to the fiery lake when - 2Pet.3:12-13, Rev.21:1-5 - is a fiery ReGenesis.. ?a new heavens and new Earth? and ?now God will Tabernacle with mankind? Rev.21:5. Which brings me to -
     Outline B - The Fall Holy Days of ancient Israel. The Spring holy days were perfectly fulfilled by the Lord?s first advent, by His death and rising, more fully than is easily seen since there?s three Sabbaths of the week, so three preparation days, both Hebrew and Roman time were used and Passover and 1st day of Unleavened Bread were/are? called interchangeably.
     So logically, the Autumn Holy Days prophecy and are a shadow and type of His long second advent. The Fall holy days (Lev.23) are:
   (1.) TRUMPETS (of Rev. & His physical return at the 7th) - then 10days/1000yrs to (2.) DAY OF ATONEMENT to, and lasting? 500years (represented by 5 days) to (3.) TABERNACLES! ?God will tabernacle with mankind?.. And ?the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow? (Isaiah 11:7).
     Outlines C (& D) - Are in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24,28c ? but(!) with Matthew 13:33 - key word 3 - ?The kingdom is like leaven, which a woman takes and hides in/works into three measures of meal (loaves) UNTIL all is leavened?.
   (Key word 3.) ?For as in Adam, all die, even so in Christ, all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: [#1 of 3] Christ the firstfruits (outline D. barley harvest), afterward [#2]those who are Christ?s at His coming (D. wheat harvest). 24 Then [#3]the end (D. grape harvest) when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He has put an end to all dominion, authority and power ..(including the LAST enemy death, vs.27) 28 ...that God may be all in all.? 
     Answer to a riddle? 2Pet.3:10 and 12-13 being bookend events of the Lord?s second, much longer, advent and presence. Verse 10 being the when of Mt.13:30 - answering so many questions! It being Rev.16:14,15,16. And what?s called his wrath (ire) being cause and effect.
[/q




I recall the days I was in the world wide church of God. People have seriously hurt from the drama . The pain
That I saw was like being blinded. And crushed  by the errors and mistakes of leaders gone rough and wrong and
.the members were pushed into yet another hour of pain and with many confusion. Your post reminds me of those who couldn't let go of the power invested In The holy days. I mean years and years of teaching and believing. This
Was a hurting time for our seniors.the way it hit me was ultimately freeing. Yet the residue from this will bear long consciousnes.my prayer for healing burst out of myself and  check up and On others.

Many. Churches can survive a busting up affair. The world wide church of God did, it's like it has sidekicks to make  it stand the paint,,..and I think many offshoots of that church still hold to things they would give their lives to and for. I walked away from it myself, that's how I know you can survive a whole sale assault  from Satan on your church.i saw it and know it's  ugly and horrible..I think as finished with Churches after that. Now I look at being born again much differently.  But I walked away finished with church.i was really just walking alone and relating to whatever I could, where ever I could.
 

Quote from: Mickiel on March 25, 2022, 06:24:11 AM
Many. Churches can survive a busting up affair. The world wide church of God did, it's like it has sidekicks to make  it stand the paint,,..and I think many offshoots of that church still hold to things they would give their lives to and for. I walked away from it myself, that's how I know you can survive a whole sale assault  from Satan on your church.i saw it and know it's  ugly and horrible..I think as finished with Churches after that. Now I look at being born again much differently.  But I walked away finished with church.i was really just walking alone and relating to whatever I could, where ever I could.

Wow can I ever relate to that!  Not the assault on the group and the pain and sorrow of disillusionment (just my own all out(?) assault years ago, faced alone, or that is only with the Lord in younger believing days) but the walking away. I couldn?t take the mixed messages with church(es). Different attitudes than what I felt I was feeling from the Lord. And there?s that natural human tendency to ?conform? so you become your best phony self.. Although I?m sure in every church there are those you can be your actual self with, actual brothers and sisters. I?m a quitter I guess, but then I came to be very happy I haven?t studied under a church, churches or denomination. First reason being I never believed in that satanic fairy tale of ?hell?. That unbelief was very much confirmed when the biblical language tools came to be at our fingertips, as opposed to the big Strong?s books, as it became so easy to search out and research the original scriptural words - though it does become obvious after a little bit that translators have loved to run with ?some? meanings of some words, like they do with ?some? verses! It?s crazy but it seems like things taught are definitely ?strongholds?. Like cement in strength! (Until the Lord takes off the blinders!)
    Jesus said God ?is perfect?. Perfect cannot make any mistake(s).. To lose even one thing, let alone a person, cannot be called ?perfect?. A perfect quote I?ve seen around here, is - ;God is love; and ;love never fails;.
:gsmile:

Quote from: marie glen on March 25, 2022, 03:45:07 PM

Quote from: Mickiel on March 25, 2022, 06:24:11 AM
Many. Churches can survive a busting up affair. The world wide church of God did, it's like it has sidekicks to make  it stand the paint,,..and I think many offshoots of that church still hold to things they would give their lives to and for. I walked away from it myself, that's how I know you can survive a whole sale assault  from Satan on your church.i saw it and know it's  ugly and horrible..I think as finished with Churches after that. Now I look at being born again much differently.  But I walked away finished with church.i was really j
Greetings,

Wow can I ever relate to that!  Not the assault on the group and the pain and sorrow of disillusionment (just my own all out(?) assault years ago, faced alone, or that is only with the Lord in younger believing days) but the walking away. I couldn?t take the mixed messages with church(es). Different attitudes than what I felt I was feeling from the Lord. And there?s that natural human tendency to ?conform? so you become your best phony self.. Although I?m sure in every church there are those you can be your actual self with, actual brothers and sisters. I?m a quitter I guess, but then I came to be very happy I haven?t studied under a church, churches or denomination. First reason being I never believed in that satanic fairy tale of ?hell?. That unbelief was very much confirmed when the biblical language tools came to be at our fingertips, as opposed to the big Strong?s books, as it became so easy to search out and research the original scriptural words - though it does become obvious after a little bit that translators have loved to run with ?some? meanings of some words, like they do with ?some? verses! It?s crazy but it seems like things taught are definitely ?strongholds?. Like cement in strength! (Until the Lord takes off the blinders!)
    Jesus said God ?is perfect?. Perfect cannot make any mistake(s).. To lose even one thing, let alone a person, cannot be called ?perfect?. A perfect quote I?ve seen around here, is - ;God is love; and ;love never fails;.
:gsmile:

Greetings ,I personally would not argue the perfection of God, I mean
The one. Who would a.rgue it faces a wall of rebuttal. In Job  42 2  Job  says he knows that you can do all
Things,  no purpose of yours can be ,.,thwarted or stopped.if God wanted....to  be hard  on things, he could. Just will them out of existence. Poof, kapow--They would no longer walk in any reality. But our God is a loving one.some situations .need his mercy, like this one that has ripped  the whole belief system of a people.they need his love and mercy,. And get that in before the times of his wrath.
 

   I am
happy that anyone having trouble with a church can have the help they need to snap them out of Indecisive  seared consciousness to see the truth before the consciousness is seared.more reason to remember to pray for a sound conscious , and always be able to think for yourselves. Another reason I think I   never went back to a church, going through one  break-up was enough for me, and I am not saying church attendance is wrong, that's   a  loosing  fight, just leave well enough alone.you have to find that live spot, that love spot, it will keep things together or with that love spot say goodbye gently

I
Or one can look at Russia and now they handle separating  neighbors. From the looks of it they just bomb your city and kill a few thousand and then they might hold talks

The. Church went through serious historical times. I am reminded of the scientific revolution ., but whew those times blew holes in  history and they knew we needed a source of inspiration, the Bible and religion.

I think church greed and ignorance help light the fire of history that broke  loose science from it's hard grip. The scientist demonstrated its own ability and came up with their own conclusions.. They got tired of church regulated science.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 27, 2022, 07:11:25 AM
The. Church went through serious historical times. I am reminded of the scientific revolution ., but whew those times blew holes in  history and they knew we needed a source of inspiration, the Bible and religion.

I think church greed and ignorance help light the fire of history that broke  loose science from it's hard grip. The scientist demonstrated its own ability and came up with their own conclusions.. They got tired of church regulated science.

Early on, in my life with the Lord, one of the instructionsl things which came to my mind was what if I lived on an island alone.. with God. No world. Lights of, voice(s) of. Just Earth, the island and my relationship with the Lord, and with the Father. I?ve always remembered that! This whole thing - all of history, and it?s sad, sad commentary, is I think serving a great purpose. Which I?m thinking the purpose is Truth. Somewhere in the Old Testament He said I show to you Life and death.. If we?re going to be thinking, reasoning beings, and his children, don?t we have to understand good from not good.. Everything being so cause and effect?
   I think God is creating a paradise, and a family, his own beloved family. And no craziness people do will prevent it or take anything away from it, or ever take us out of the palm of his hand, Ps.91.
    I?m a suspicious person! I don?t trust anything.. but read my New Testament for myself, I even made my own reading schedule and think of it as an ?enter the story schedule? https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html ..I don?t even trust myself! I think every Christian (all of us) need to be anchored in the Lord the Logos and also in the written Logos, especially our NT. And the crazier the world gets, the more so. Afterall it?s two fruits maturing, so there has to be plenty of GOOD things going to be rolled out too! Do you think? ..I hope so! (For one thing I think we are at Rev. chapter 7 a veRy good thing.. Verses 4 and 9. Two groups, great things?)

Oh yes I think we are in Revelations 7 and we're at verse 10, salvation to our God. I think it's good to be suspicious, so am I very picky where the things of God are concerned. Yes Marie God is creating something totally new, which includes us, but it goes pass us. It said that all things will be new. We don't even know what the heaven was like before us , but we can rightly assume it was good  we are in for greatness personified .

Quote from: Mickiel on March 28, 2022, 04:20:47 AM
Oh yes I think we are in Revelations 7 and we're at verse 10, salvation to our God. I think it's good to be suspicious, so am I very picky where the things of God are concerned. Yes Marie God is creating something totally new, which includes us, but it goes pass us. It said that all things will be new. We don't even know what the heaven was like before us , but we can rightly assume it was good  we are in for greatness personified .

.

I understand the desire to be made the sons of God , the. Scriptures speak very highly of those chosen  this free inheritance is a mind blower for any individual who gets chosen in the first wave. It's such a powerful fertilization that is free , these individuals will grow into positions of great honor , so will need help on this side to be humble before the change,, the new birth is difficult if we are left to ourselves, we need the spirit even to help us wait for this honor. The things this opens to Satan is nasty,so we pray God's blessings on them.

In Isaiah 9 verse 7 of the increase of his government and peace  there shall be no end. Everything in that kingdom  will increase, which is why sin will not be allowed  everything good about you that you may now overlook , are plantings destined to grow  Growth without end Whew..

Quote from: Mickiel on March 28, 2022, 06:47:18 AM

Quote from: Mickiel on March 28, 2022, 04:20:47 AM
Oh yes I think we are in Revelations 7 and we're at verse 10, salvation to our God. I think it's good to be suspicious, so am I very picky where the things of God are concerned. Yes Marie God is creating something totally new, which includes us, but it goes pass us. It said that all things will be new. We don't even know what the heaven was like before us , but we can rightly assume it was good  we are in for greatness personified .

.

I understand the desire to be made the sons of God , the. Scriptures speak very highly of those chosen  this free inheritance is a mind blower for any individual who gets chosen in the first wave. It's such a powerful fertilization that is free , these individuals will grow into positions of great honor , so will need help on this side to be humble before the change,, the new birth is difficult if we are left to ourselves, we need the spirit even to help us wait for this honor. The things this opens to Satan is nasty,so we pray God's blessings on them.

In Isaiah 9 verse 7 of the increase of his government and peace  there shall be no end. Everything in that kingdom  will increase, which is why sin will not be allowed  everything good about you that you may now overlook , are plantings destined to grow  Growth without end Whew..

Using just simple mathmatics , if I give you 100 this week and you double the increase to 200 next week, that is increase. Now two of things are listed to increase right off is peace and government.. I am sorry , I don't know how a government and peace can mathematically increase forever.. I can't see it. It's beyond me.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 28, 2022, 08:16:47 AM

Using just simple mathmatics , if I give you 100 this week and you double the increase to 200 next week, that is increase. Now two of things are listed to increase right off is peace and government.. I am sorry , I don't know how a government and peace can mathematically increase forever.. I can't see it. It's beyond me.

You?re so right! Exactly like you said, Whew!  It is beyond us to even appreciate how wonderful all that God is creating is.. I have to think if we only ever had lived in paradise conditions, how spoiled might we be? And once something starts to spoil.. not Good! (But God -built in- the remedy -from the beginning- :cloud9: But what a dilemma! How do you create thinking, reasoning beings, aNd keep paradise/perfection intact??
     Just imagine.. God being SO wise he can let all these not Good choices exist.. and run their course.. AnD, in the end, tie up everything -into Jesus- thus locked, sealed into perfection. I mean if God is Life, and surely He is? And he -is perfect- then that makes imperfect, and straying to be the exact opposite of Life. But he built the remedy into it all -from the beginning- Christ Crucified - STRONG enough to appease every conscience and psyche. We are -clothed- with forgiveness, fully accepted by Him, slowly being perfected, declared innocent/perfect.

   Don?t laugh, but I think we are -all in heaven and earth- being inoculated against imperfection/straying! (Which HE has -subjected all to.) As imperfection - greek hamartia, translated sin - means in it?s literal meaning - missing the mark (of perfection). So it?s very obvious, or will be to all, that to go that way is SO totally futile. As it can only ever result in death/not being. It?s a deadly disease and a bottomless abyss of potential.

:Chinscratch: I haven?t read that verse for a while.. so I googled part of the verse, it?s Isaiah 9:7. So I went to biblehub.com ?s interlinear word for word - I just love the study tools we have these days! To trace back to the original words written. It?s always SO interesting! Yet, of course, or so I think, the translators kind of run with SOME word meanings like they do with -some- few verses.

Quote - Of the increase [marbeh: abundance] of his government [misrah: rule, dominion] and peace [shalom: completeness, soundness, welfare, peace] there shall be no end..
    And the rest of the verse - upon the throne of David (Jerusalem will be Earth?s capitol) and over his kingdom [mamlakah: kingdom, sovereignty, dominion, reign] to order [kun: confirm] and establish it with judgment and justice [tsedaqah: righteousness] from that time forward forever [olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity]. The zeal [qinah: ardor, zeal, jealousy ..passion] of Yahweh of hosts will perform [asah: accomplish] this.
     :Chinscratch: (Info given to Isaiah 500 to 700 BCE (? i don?t remember when). -Of the abundance of His rule and dominion there shall be no end. HE will establish it and make it firm. And he?s quite passionate (feels deeply) about it (has zeal! Excitement about it!)
    A favorite verse of mine, also in Isaiah (11:7) -The lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow.- And Luke 1:33 -HiS kingdom will never end.- Not only will there be Father and Son :faint: but also his huge wonderful family -all- the beautiful, wonderful people and families.. tribes, nations.. of all generations and earth times.. And all the animal friends and creatures created by him.  :faint:  :cloud9: ..Even now.. how blessed are we?!
   The verse at biblehub dot com?s interlinear - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/9-7.htm
:Peace2: God bless.. have a great day!

It is so refreshing Marie to listen to the heart of a believer blessed with  a few more pages of insightful inspiration from our King. The time will come and may already be here when believers will not endure sound doctrine. This is a world that leaks confusion into the people and we suffer because of that. This world is not heaven ,1John2, 15-17,  God loves this world but has not created a new heaven and mixed it with this world of sin . John 15:19 , James 4:4, Heb.13:14, 1John5:19 is stunning, it says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one..many believers are caught unaware of the worldwide net that snared them. It's good we have a savior ,I don't think any spiritual movement to make this world heaven, is wonderful but a bit early  in its desire . I resist any movement that makes this world heaven now or the Kingdom of God now. If anyone needs to peek at what little we know of what heaven will be like it's right there in Rev.22:1-5 . Such movements in my view, take the Kingdom by force of their violent belief . But I don't let my heart be troubled, I know that in my Father's house are many mansions that have many rooms, a place being prepared as we speak. This is NOT going on now because the Kingdom is  not here now. It's not just a spiritual kingdom, it has location, population, living quarters and John 14:1-6, Jesus lives there.  And the Kingdom of God has judged this world and cast Satan out..Satan has not been cast out of this world , but those who teach the Kingdom of God is right now here, explain to me the relevance of John 12:31 If the Kingdom is here this verse needs to be cast out  along with plenty of other's. Hey, read Rev.21:3, an announcement is made that all humanity' will see at the same time . The Kingdom of God is not a secret that only a few chosen can see , I like how Luke 3:6 describes it, "And All flesh shall see God", bang there it is. You will here , "Hey the Kingdom is here, no it's over there,no it's where the elect is pointing at'. I don't let any of them describe the Kingdom to me.

In Luke 17:21 Jesus gave a stunning misunderstood teaching. People will say the Kingdom is here, or there, he said the Kingdom is within you , or in your midst .I believe he was referring to himself being the Kingdom in their midst The Greek word that is translated as "Midst" has the meaning of"Among" or in the midst.  This meaning is consistent with the latest discovery from the papyri.

Many verses tell us that the kingdom will last forever and will never end. Isa. 9:7 and Luke 1:33 are the verses that Marie Glen used in her post. These verses refer to the Millennial Kingdom when the Lord Jesus Christ rules. It is also called the Day of the Lord.

But after the 1000 year millennium, another kingdom is established, called the Kingdom of God. It is the time of the new heaven and new earth. This is when God the Father dwells with humanity. The tabernacle of God (the Father) is with men.

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And after that Christs' rule ends and everything is subject to the Father. There is no longer a need for a King which rules. That is when all are in God's family. That is when God will be all in all.

1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 

 

Quote from: Mickiel on March 29, 2022, 07:02:45 PM
It is so refreshing Marie to listen to the heart of a believer blessed with  a few more pages of insightful inspiration from our King. The time will come and may already be here when believers will not endure sound doctrine. This is a world that leaks confusion into the people and we suffer because of that. This world is not heaven ,1John2, 15-17,  God loves this world but has not created a new heaven and mixed it with this world of sin . John 15:19 , James 4:4, Heb.13:14, 1John5:19 is stunning, it says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one..many believers are caught unaware of the worldwide net that snared them. It's good we have a savior ,I don't think any spiritual movement to make this world heaven, is wonderful but a bit early  in its desire . I resist any movement that makes this world heaven now or the Kingdom of God now. If anyone needs to peek at what little we know of what heaven will be like it's right there in Rev.22:1-5 . Such movements in my view, take the Kingdom by force of their violent belief . But I don't let my heart be troubled, I know that in my Father's house are many mansions that have many rooms, a place being prepared as we speak. This is NOT going on now because the Kingdom is  not here now. It's not just a spiritual kingdom, it has location, population, living quarters and John 14:1-6, Jesus lives there.  And the Kingdom of God has judged this world and cast Satan out..Satan has not been cast out of this world , but those who teach the Kingdom of God is right now here, explain to me the relevance of John 12:31 If the Kingdom is here this verse needs to be cast out  along with plenty of other's. Hey, read Rev.21:3, an announcement is made that all humanity' will see at the same time . The Kingdom of God is not a secret that only a few chosen can see , I like how Luke 3:6 describes it, "And All flesh shall see God", bang there it is. You will here , "Hey the Kingdom is here, no it's over there,no it's where the elect is pointing at'. I don't let any of them describe the Kingdom to me.

In Luke 17:21 Jesus gave a stunning misunderstood teaching. People will say the Kingdom is here, or there, he said the Kingdom is within you , or in your midst .I believe he was referring to himself being the Kingdom in their midst The Greek word that is translated as "Midst" has the meaning of"Among" or in the midst.  This meaning is consistent with the latest discovery from the papyri.

I totally agree! The kingdom in their - midst.. Sometimes scripture is believed in such a way that it seems (to me) too internalized, like it?s all about moi. And I very much believe Jesus is returning in person and fully, which has not occurred yet.
:gsmile:

Quote from: joeteekay on March 30, 2022, 12:18:08 AM
Many verses tell us that the kingdom will last forever and will never end. Isa. 9:7 and Luke 1:33 are the verses that Marie Glen used in her post. These verses refer to the Millennial Kingdom when the Lord Jesus Christ rules. It is also called the Day of the Lord.

But after the 1000 year millennium, another kingdom is established, called the Kingdom of God. It is the time of the new heaven and new earth. This is when God the Father dwells with humanity. The tabernacle of God (the Father) is with men.

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And after that Christs' rule ends and everything is subject to the Father. There is no longer a need for a King which rules. That is when all are in God's family. That is when God will be all in all.

1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Amen Joeteekay! I finally realized the GWT judgment (in every not yet saved/reconciled to God heart, and great day of review?) is an age! What the Lord called -aionion kolasis (eonian correction, Matthew 25:46). But of course the translators translated the two words as their most extreme possible usage. Instead of eonian correction, making it read everlasting punishment. :faint: Running with just enough verses and just enough word meanings to cause the Good News For All to be presented as that bad news gospel!
But! In reality, what a glorious thing it is that God is doing! He subjected all to vanity for a reason.
:Chinscratch: What would we be like I wonder, if we lived always and only in a paradise?

I wish I could watch the future like television, ,it's going to be grand.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 30, 2022, 03:37:15 AM
I wish I could watch the future like television, ,it's going to be grand.

Amen!! I think you?re very right about that!!

Grand- God's Remarkable Awesome New Dwelling

The old ancient Kingdom itself will be renewed. The Kingdom is an ancient place in Rev.4:2 John was given a future television screen to watch. It's in heaven and he is shown God's throne. An awesome look it had to be. God appeared to be like jewels shining and a rainbow round about him. There were 24 seats with ancient beings sitting on them. With crowns on their heads. And lightnings and thunderings proceeded out from the throne. And voices. There were seven lamps of fire which are the seven spirits of God. There is a spirit in every human, the Spirit of consciousness or the breath of life. Then the holy Spirit of God can be later added,that's two. So our possible lamps of fire is two, God has seven. Each spirit is a different level of consciousness. God then has at least seven levels of consciousness. Wow!

Palace- Placing All Literally Alongside Christ Eternally

Quote from: Mickiel on March 30, 2022, 05:38:03 AM
The old ancient Kingdom itself will be renewed. The Kingdom is an ancient place in Rev.4:2 John was given a future television screen to watch. It's in heaven and he is shown God's throne. An awesome look it had to be. God appeared to be like jewels shining and a rainbow round about him. There were 24 seats with ancient beings sitting on them. With crowns on their heads. And lightnings and thunderings proceeded out from the throne. And voices. There were seven lamps of fire which are the seven spirits of God. There is a spirit in every human, the Spirit of consciousness or the breath of life. Then the holy Spirit of God can be later added,that's two. So our possible lamps of fire is two, God has seven. Each spirit is a different level of consciousness. God then has at least seven levels of consciousness. Wow!

The ancient planned all this before commencing the construction process.
The reference to ages to come also highlights that there was knowledge of mankind's rebellion, which was necessary to teach consequential thinking- cause and effect.
We will be like Christ: pretty big change.

Quote from: Ross on March 30, 2022, 07:29:32 AM

Quote from: Mickiel on March 30, 2022, 05:38:03 AM
The old ancient Kingdom itself will be renewed. The Kingdom is an ancient place in Rev.4:2 John was given a future television screen to watch. It's in heaven and he is shown God's throne. An awesome look it had to be. God appeared to be like jewels shining and a rainbow round about him. There were 24 seats with ancient beings sitting on them. With crowns on their heads. And lightnings and thunderings proceeded out from the throne. And voices. There were seven lamps of fire which are the seven spirits of God. There is a spirit in every human, the Spirit of consciousness or the breath of life. Then the holy Spirit of God can be later added,that's two. So our possible lamps of fire is two, God has seven. Each spirit is a different level of consciousness. God then has at least seven levels of consciousness. Wow!

The ancient planned all this before commencing the construction process.
The reference to ages to come also highlights that there was knowledge of mankind's rebellion, which was necessary to teach consequential thinking- cause and effect.
We will be like Christ: pretty big change.

I see things in a different manner Ross , but not too far from yours.. The terminology of using the term "Rebellion" I think may cause the reader , or at least some of them, to accept the popular Christian view of the events in Eden. They feel mankind had a choice , and Adam blew it so they term it "The Fall", as if God wanted a different Outcome and our salvation was based on Adam and Eve's performance or "Mistake". I totally disagree with that. There was no such thing as the fall. If they called it "The push", I could agree with that. Absolutely nothing happened in Eden  that God did not want to happen. Oh no!  God wanted and willed the events in Eden to occur exactly as they did. God was creating the "Need for Christ to come". That was no mistake.

That satanic reasoning premeates all in Christianity. Such reasoning first teaches that God does not get his way in human history. There is no such thing as God can't get his way of that he makes mistakes in the ebb and flow of all things. They actually think they that God was depending on Adam and Eve to defeat Satan. Such thinking is a smear on God and the birth of the false free will belief doctrine. Reason closely and think with me. If Adam and Eve failed to do God's will,  it suggest far too much confusion. First off it means the devil sneaked Into Eden. , got pass all angels and God against his will. Then God does not help them against Satan, read the event , no where does God even help the young couple. If anyone teaches that all of humanity's salvation was based on Adam,whew what a insult on God that is. If ever any event in human history happened that God  did not want to happen , then the power behind that event is stronger than God. Nothing happened in Eden that God did not want to happen. God planted ( or instilled on earth), the tree of the knowledge of good and evil : God did that not Adam. God is not stupid , he wouldn't allow humanity to condemn ourselves. Nor would he place the responsibility of our salvation on the backs of Adam and Eve , or any other humans. That was a job for Superman. God knew Adam and Eve were no match for Satan , that's stupid to think like that. Good grief. God is not stupid. Salvation is WAY too important to leave it up to human will. And we know why. Because too many humans make too many wrong  choices. God loves us way too much to watch us condemn ourselves. We are family.

I agree with you Mickiel. Just to add my take on the event in the garden of Eden:

It is interesting that it was God who planted the tree which contained both good and evil, not just good. God intentionally put evil into that one tree. The knowledge of good is dependent upon the knowledge of evil. Hence the tree in the garden was not, as we usually think of it, merely the means of knowing evil, it was the means, primarily, of the knowledge of good. Before they sinned Adam and Eve had good but did not realize it because they had had no experience of evil.

It is readily acknowledged that we want what is good and not evil. We strive for the good but we oftentimes experience evil. Before they sinned, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good. Good lay all about them, unmixed with evil. They had health, strength, honor, and companionship with one another. Yet they knew nothing of the blessedness of these blessings. This we learn from the name given to the tree which bore the forbidden fruit. To many minds it suggests only the knowledge of evil, rather than good.

p.s. I wonder if this thread should be split into a couple of different topics to better reflect the content of the posts. Of course one being "Born Again" (the original topic), another being the kingdom verses and another being the garden of Eden. Jabcat may have an opinion. Just my opinion.  :dontknow:

Quote from: joeteekay on March 31, 2022, 12:16:56 AM
I agree with you Mickiel. Just to add my take on the event in the garden of Eden:

It is interesting that it was God who planted the tree which contained both good and evil, not just good. God intentionally put evil into that one tree. The knowledge of good is dependent upon the knowledge of evil. Hence the tree in the garden was not, as we usually think of it, merely the means of knowing evil, it was the means, primarily, of the knowledge of good. Before they sinned Adam and Eve had good but did not realize it because they had had no experience of evil.

It is readily acknowledged that we want what is good and not evil. We strive for the good but we oftentimes experience evil. Before they sinned, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good. Good lay all about them, unmixed with evil. They had health, strength, honor, and companionship with one another. Yet they knew nothing of the blessedness of these blessings. This we learn from the name given to the tree which bore the forbidden fruit. To many minds it suggests only the knowledge of evil, rather than good.

p.s. I wonder if this thread should be split into a couple of different topics to better reflect the content of the posts. Of course one being "Born Again" (the original topic), another being the kingdom verses and another being the garden of Eden. Jabcat may have an opinion. Just my opinion.  :dontknow:
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Greetings Joeteekay,

Yes the events in Eden is another topic within itself. It reveals much about evil and good. And much about Adam and Eve. If we examine the curses of God,  they reveal certain things about the young couple. For one, Eve was not a submissive woman , why would God curse her with a curse she already had? In other words she was not a submissive woman , which explains her behavior. She did what Adam should have done. She jumped all in Satans face and acted like she was the man. And  Adam let her do it , so he was a passive man.. it's possible that if God had not cursed her , women would have ruled this earth.  That would have been interesting. Adams curse is why us men have to work hard , some of us. God made women submissive to men , oh how some women have suffered because of that. I mean whole races and cultures of women have reaped that whirlwind. God slapped Eden or earth, and with good , evil and relationship problems between the sexes. Even Satan was stripped of some of his power. Yes we could extract several threads of topics from the most interesting things God has done.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 30, 2022, 08:18:06 PM

I see things in a different manner Ross , but not too far from yours.. The terminology of using the term "Rebellion" I think may cause the reader , or at least some of them, to accept the popular Christian view of the events in Eden. They feel mankind had a choice , and Adam blew it so they term it "The Fall", as if God wanted a different Outcome and our salvation was based on Adam and Eve's performance or "Mistake". I totally disagree with that.

Rebellion, to me, is an example of the variations a single word can have which then influence the interpretation which arises from that variation.
Rebellion - open resistance to authority, revolutionary, resistor, heretic, non-conformer, challenger, disobedient.
Just those words have 'variations' .

Interesting how Adam must have come with some knowledge because he was given the job of naming all the animals. He was given life by being breathed into- but there must have been some preset data he received to be capable to do anything let alone naming things.

Adam had knowledge, but no experience- so to me this  suggests's  that there was indeed going to be a training ground for Adam/mankind which was going to have situations arise which would train man in the way he should go  by demonstrating clearly what "not" to do and what consequences arise when things are done for self-gain and not the good of others.
By definition wisdom comes from experience- a literal processing of data for the best outcome.


I do not accept the "popular Christian view either.  Indeed no choice- all planned before the world began.
Freedom of choice is such an ambiguous statement- those decisions based on the current surroundings and the limited personal experiences of each one of us. Finite trying to define the infinite is challenging to say the least.

"The fall" is supposedly giving mankind an excuse for not accepting God is true love because He holds someone else's sin against us. That excuse tries to convince us that we have done nothing wrong so why is God punishing us?
Then spiritual warfare tries to justify our degree of spiritual insight, as if we are just being weak if we do not rectify the problem for God and claim territory that was lost due to previous sins.

Adam blaming Eve is another example of how man tries to blame someone else for personal mistakes. Refusing to accept responsibility seems pretty common at all levels of authority by which we are currently surrounded. Media coverage enlarges that data.
Taking those things to court for legal solutions does not always remedy the problem either.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 30, 2022, 08:18:06 PM
Salvation is WAY too important to leave it up to human will. And we know why. Because too many humans make too many wrong  choices. God loves us way too much to watch us condemn ourselves. We are family.

Pretty much my interpretation as well.

C.U

Quote from: Ross on March 31, 2022, 04:10:17 AM

Quote from: Mickiel on March 30, 2022, 08:18:06 PM

I see things in a different manner Ross , but not too far from yours.. The terminology of using the term "Rebellion" I think may cause the reader , or at least some of them, to accept the popular Christian view of the events in Eden. They feel mankind had a choice , and Adam blew it so they term it "The Fall", as if God wanted a different Outcome and our salvation was based on Adam and Eve's performance or "Mistake". I totally disagree with that.

Rebellion, to me, is an example of the variations a single word can have which then influence the interpretation which arises from that variation.
Rebellion - open resistance to authority, revolutionary, resistor, heretic, non-conformer, challenger, disobedient.
Just those words have 'variations' .

Interesting how Adam must have come with some knowledge because he was given the job of naming all the animals. He was given life by being breathed into- but there must have been some preset data he received to be capable to do anything let alone naming things.

Adam had knowledge, but no experience- so to me this  suggests's  that there was indeed going to be a training ground for Adam/mankind which was going to have situations arise which would train man in the way he should go  by demonstrating clearly what "not" to do and what consequences arise when things are done for self-gain and not the good of others.
By definition wisdom comes from experience- a literal processing of data for the best outcome.


I do not accept the "popular Christian view either.  Indeed no choice- all planned before the world began.
Freedom of choice is such an ambiguous statement- those decisions based on the current surroundings and the limited personal experiences of each one of us. Finite trying to define the infinite is challenging to say the least.

"The fall" is supposedly giving mankind an excuse for not accepting God is true love because He holds someone else's sin against us. That excuse tries to convince us that we have done nothing wrong so why is God punishing us?
Then spiritual warfare tries to justify our degree of spiritual insight, as if we are just being weak if we do not rectify the problem for God and claim territory that was lost due to previous sins.

Adam blaming Eve is another example of how man tries to blame someone else for personal mistakes. Refusing to accept responsibility seems pretty common at all levels of authority by which we are currently surrounded. Media coverage enlarges that data.
Taking those things to court for legal solutions does not always remedy the problem either.

Quote from: Mickiel on March 30, 2022, 08:18:06 PM
Salvation is WAY too important to leave it up to human will. And we know why. Because too many humans make too many wrong  choices. God loves us way too much to watch us condemn ourselves. We are family.

Pretty much my interpretation as well.

C.U

Greetings Ross,

I am hard-pressed to see any greatness in Adam , yet his position just about demands it. So what went wrong with him? Well he named all the animals, not even a spiritual accomplishment. But respectable , so he was no idiot. But I think he may have been a wimp.. literally telling God "That woman you gave me was thinking for me."well okay that's one thing I hold against him. So let's look to scriptures to help us build a whole picture of him. I'll go second and let you go first in showing us something other than naming animals in Adams spiritual accomplishments.

 I don't mean to be anti-Adam. I recognize that he was the world's first landscaper and horticulturist. He may have been the only man without a mother and father.  I am about to say something much of Christianity disagrees with , that being Adam was not the first created man , he was the first man created that had a consciousness. I  think that archaeology is correct that there were humans living far before Adams time , there is too much archaeology to back that up..I believe the cro- magnon  lived mostly in Europe 40,000 years ago. Ten thousand of those years the Neanderthal lived. I don't believe they were conscious humans.Adam was the first man God created that was conscious. God blew into him the breath of life that had consciousness inside it. I don't want to confuse anyone so I won't go into that. They were right when they said more thread topics can come from this one. I just have not read much of Adam in scripture. In Gen. 2:7 God Breathes the breath of life into Adam. Paul thought Adam was a forerunner for Christ. Rom. 5:12. I don't know about the meaning of that.

Quote from: Ross on March 30, 2022, 03:53:44 AM
Grand- God's Remarkable Awesome New Dwelling

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana: A-men!!

Quote from: Mickiel on March 30, 2022, 05:38:03 AM
The old ancient Kingdom itself will be renewed. The Kingdom is an ancient place in Rev.4:2 John was given a future television screen to watch. It's in heaven and he is shown God's throne. An awesome look it had to be. God appeared to be like jewels shining and a rainbow round about him. There were 24 seats with ancient beings sitting on them. With crowns on their heads. And lightnings and thunderings proceeded out from the throne. And voices. There were seven lamps of fire which are the seven spirits of God. There is a spirit in every human, the Spirit of consciousness or the breath of life. Then the holy Spirit of God can be later added,that's two. So our possible lamps of fire is two, God has seven. Each spirit is a different level of consciousness. God then has at least seven levels of consciousness. Wow!

I never have considered that.. Very interesting.. :gsmile:

Quote from: Ross on March 30, 2022, 07:29:32 AM
The ancient planned all this before commencing the construction process.
The reference to ages to come also highlights that there was knowledge of mankind's rebellion, which was necessary to teach consequential thinking- cause and effect.
We will be like Christ: pretty big change.

Amen!!  :thumbsup: ..Not some sort of mistake God made! :faint: Or was outwitted by the adversary.. or Adam, lol! Nope, veRy cleverly engineered so that ?all in heaven and Earth? take this journey all together at once. Unavoidable I haveto think, if we?re all to have thinking and reasoning ability, thus can make (limited) choices (not as to when the blinders come off or the hardening/?covering? of our heart! However. I can?t find the reference/word where hardness if heart is a word meaning covered. And I read it just this morning!)
    It?s crazy so many believers still seem to believe it?s sort of like God hoping He can save a few.. Especially since HE has subjected all to disobedience.. :gsmile:

It?s a great thing God is doing! Thankfully not like us, lol, with trial and error!  :dsunny:

Quote from: marie glen on April 01, 2022, 01:01:35 AM
It?s a great thing God is doing! Thankfully not like us, lol, with trial and error!  :dsunny:

Amen !

Quote from: marie glen on April 01, 2022, 01:01:35 AM
It?s a great thing God is doing! Thankfully not like us, lol, with trial and error!  :dsunny:
[/quote

Greetings Marie Glen ,

It's good reading to search for what God can do. Like Isaiah 54:16 , where God created the "Waster to destroy.," A truth that the religious world is choking on. Is And those of us who see truth , some of them get choked from things like in Lamentations 3:9 ,we are given insight to a believers prayer. His prayer is of interest. He said when he cried and shouted , God shut out his prayers, and then does a job on him , .God has enclosed him within big stones cut to size just for him.
He said God made his paths crooked. In vs 11 he said God pulled him into pieces.But though he caused grief  , vs 32 , he will yet have compassion.

In vs 38, interestingly it says out of God's mouth proceeds good and evil . So his ways will enlist evil when he thinks it's  called for. In Ecclesiastes 7:13 it says to consider "The work", of God , what work,?  Who can make straight that which he has made crooked? Hey so when God thinks it's called for , he will bend the person over, make them a criminal , or send them into the darkness. And nothing and nobody could help them. The trials God can decree can be frightening. God can be frightening , yet he will soon put that away forever. Ps 103:8-9 , Jer. 3:12 , 3:5, Isaiah 57:16, Ezk. 16:42, Ps. 85:3, 78:38.

Continuing on this arcane way of God. We cannot outsmart him and he cannot be bargained with. We have a chance because he is basically good , but he is in no way unwise to human or satanic evil. In Job 3:23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid , and whom God has hedged in?  Another man God has trapped for his reasons. Trapped in the dark someone tries to give him light. The man Was about to eat and God explodes upon him. The thing which he greatly feared is come upon him , that which he was most afraid of has jumped on him. He said he was not safe , nor had any sleep and his spirit was troubled before the trouble came. He longs for death. He is most miserable , he would rather be dead than alive. His friends feel for him but don't know how to help him.
I hope when I get like that I have somebody that knows what to do. Helping other brethren is a great gift.. sometimes we just need the help and prayers of others. It avails much.

 In Mark 10:27 with people things can be impossible, with God all things are possible. Can you imagine talking with someone and telling them you wish or hope for something that you know is impossible to have anyway. And in the next moment there it is , it and even more of it than you imagined. I have never seen this done so dramatically than in my own life . Eight years ago I had diagnosed lung cancer than was already stage 4. The team of doctors told me I would pass in a month or less and placed me in a special clinic for dying patients. That clinic , after two weeks , placed me into a nursing home for end of life patients. After two months of being there the doctors there said that they were discharging me from the clinic , because I was not dying and the x-rays showed no cancer. So I was praising God and those who gave me weeks to live , are so far 8 years behind. This has happened to me 3 times, last year was the latest. They say the cancer returns and spreads. Now it has frozen yet again and God extends my life.

And I was a believer that had problems with faith, I still do. You live Few years waiting for death, the next year free of that fear, the next year it returns and you learn to listen to God more than you do these doctors. One doctor I have now said I should have been dead years ago. He said he's never seen anything like it. It's strange, I thank God for life and I ask for it, but I am moved to ask God to teach me to be thankful to him. Just how do I do it. I long to really show him I am so happy for life , teach me how to live. Show me the deep things of life.

God began to show me I was not treating people right. I was not loving humanity. I had developed a cold heart in many areas that I didn't know I did. I have approached God in serious prayer expecting all kinds of new knowledge, then he shows me I don't love people. That I am uncomfortable with homeless people. That I don't know how to be grateful, I have no faith, I need to love my son and x wives more . Know those things. Learn those things. Learn how to speak with people in a more respectful way.

It changes your insight and your prayer life.

So what do you do as the world turns? How does a believer spend their time?  Are we going to ask for greatness, and study God's word from a mindset like that?  Do you think we grow like potatoes ,is it the path to spend you're energy on blowing up ourselves with all kinds of super power, and yet we still kick the cat?  You want to be an Apostle and you don't even speak to your garbage man. We want to be one of the two witnesses , and don't even witness to anyone , isn't that strange? Don't even tell our neighbors about God. And dare think you can be a king.

The arcane ways of man Are telling.

Quote from: Mickiel on April 02, 2022, 11:40:42 PM
In Mark 10:27 with people things can be impossible, with God all things are possible. Can you imagine talking with someone and telling them you wish or hope for something that you know is impossible to have anyway. And in the next moment there it is , it and even more of it than you imagined. I have never seen this done so dramatically than in my own life . Eight years ago I had diagnosed lung cancer than was already stage 4. The team of doctors told me I would pass in a month or less and placed me in a special clinic for dying patients. That clinic , after two weeks , placed me into a nursing home for end of life patients. After two months of being there the doctors there said that they were discharging me from the clinic , because I was not dying and the x-rays showed no cancer. So I was praising God and those who gave me weeks to live , are so far 8 years behind. This has happened to me 3 times, last year was the latest. They say the cancer returns and spreads. Now it has frozen yet again and God extends my life.

And I was a believer that had problems with faith, I still do. You live Few years waiting for death, the next year free of that fear, the next year it returns and you learn to listen to God more than you do these doctors. One doctor I have now said I should have been dead years ago. He said he's never seen anything like it. It's strange, I thank God for life and I ask for it, but I am moved to ask God to teach me to be thankful to him. Just how do I do it. I long to really show him I am so happy for life , teach me how to live. Show me the deep things of life.

God began to show me I was not treating people right. I was not loving humanity. I had developed a cold heart in many areas that I didn't know I did. I have approached God in serious prayer expecting all kinds of new knowledge, then he shows me I don't love people. That I am uncomfortable with homeless people. That I don't know how to be grateful, I have no faith, I need to love my son and x wives more . Know those things. Learn those things. Learn how to speak with people in a more respectful way.

It changes your insight and your prayer life.

:goodpost:

Quote from: Mickiel on April 03, 2022, 12:22:01 AM

So what do you do as the world turns? How does a believer spend their time?

Romans 13;14 " Put on the Lord Jesus Christ and take no forethought for the flesh to fulfill it's covetings."

Romans 14;17-19 " For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit;
                             for the one who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by people.
                            So then, let us pursue what makes for peace and for building up one another."

Romans 15;7 " Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God."

1 Thess 4;9 " But concerning brotherly love you have no need that we be writing to you;
                    for you yourselves are God-taught to be loving one another."

1 Thess 4;11,12 " Be ambitious to be  quiet and to be attending to your own affairs
                          and to be be working with your own hands even as we gave charge to you,
                      that you should walk reputably towards those outsiders being dependent on no-one."

Romans 8;18 " For I reckon that the sufferings of the present age are unworthy to be compared with the glory
                       about to be revealed to us."

Hebrews 12;11 " But no discipline for the present seems to be of joy but sorrow;
                         however, afterwards, to them who have thereby been well trained,
                          it yields peaceful fruit of righteousness."

1 Cor 3;11 " For no one can lay any other foundation than that which is lying which is Jesus Christ."

Thank you Jabcat , I Am honored.


You know one of the finest samples of How God takes care of us is how animals do their parenting. The Lionesses and their cubs, the .other dogs and chimps. This is how God is , in Matt.6:26-34 we are told to look at that, how our heavenly Father takes the time to feed them. Are we not of more value to him than birds of the air? Of course we are, he loves us with a passion. A growing passion. I see God every time I watch animals parenting.

Quote from: Ross on April 04, 2022, 04:31:42 AM

Quote from: Mickiel on April 03, 2022, 12:22:01 AM

So what do you do as the world turns? How does a believer spend their time?

Romans 13;14 " Put on the Lord Jesus Christ and take no forethought for the flesh to fulfill it's covetings."

Romans 14;17-19 " For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit;
                             for the one who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by people.
                            So then, let us pursue what makes for peace and for building up one another."

Romans 15;7 " Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God."

1 Thess 4;9 " But concerning brotherly love you have no need that we be writing to you;
                    for you yourselves are God-taught to be loving one another."

1 Thess 4;11,12 " Be ambitious to be  quiet and to be attending to your own affairs
                          and to be be working with your own hands even as we gave charge to you,
                      that you should walk reputably towards those outsiders being dependent on no-one."

Romans 8;18 " For I reckon that the sufferings of the present age are unworthy to be compared with the glory
                       about to be revealed to us."

Hebrews 12;11 " But no discipline for the present seems to be of joy but sorrow;
                         however, afterwards, to them who have thereby been well trained,
                          it yields peaceful fruit of righteousness."

1 Cor 3;11 " For no one can lay any other foundation than that which is lying which is Jesus Christ."

Amen Ross.

I wanted to look at a Verse Ross used in Romans 14:17-19. The Kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. If we serve Christ in this way , it is pleasing to God , and you receive human approval as well. The Kingdom of God is just what we have been discussing. It's more than just a matter of survival. It is the way of life that excites God. He is saying," Just look at him, his living, that's my son." Job was living in this mannerGod was so pleased with him, that he literally wanted to "show him off" to Satan. God bragged  on Job. That showed supreme confidence in Job. Whew God was correct about him. Job gave the greatest statement I have read in scripture, in 13:15 he said thou you slay me yet will I trust you. Stunning, stunning belief.  I do not think Job sinned in life, not that I know of. And that was the Kingdom of God placemat at Jobs house , he lived as if he was in heaven. His righteousness was the Kingdom of God , those living in heaven now , are living righteously, peacefully and have God's Spirit.

Paul was showing that the believer didn't come to faith in Christ just to eat meat and drink wine, and controlling that, buying homes and church attendance , marrying and given in marriage, but are you happy; are you really happy? Joy to the world and salvation has come , but how are you living everyday? Ross answered the question how should we be living, and this continues on that line. One of the everyday ways of living for a believer is to love everybody. The consciousness of the love of God leads you to all holy living. God challenges you as he did Job, to cause you to hunger and thrist for righteousness , Mt.5:6. We are blessed by just the effort to live right.Blessed is just another word for happy.

We are what we eat. We have a physical taste and a spiritual taste. Ps. 34:8 Righteousness is just doing right. Jesus went to the cross and secured our positions in heaven and imputed to us his righteousness. This is what enables us to live righteous. Living a life of seeking first the Kingdom of God and the righteousness will come.

And we gain righteousness  by the way we live. We spend our time alive, learning how to live. We give outward service from inward ways we have. A giver will give. A helper will help. A feeder will feed both humans and animals. You will be surprised at God if you ask him to teach you to live right. The opportunities will just pop up every now and then. Different situations to help you have widespread to experience. It's so interesting , the way of God. Most of how God imputes righteousness , is how we treat others. How we treat the brethren and the seniors is very important.Purity of life, integrity , virtue , correctness of thinking , feeling and acting  , all these are righteousness. These ways are not far off with the help of Jesus. In Matt.6 33 , Jesus is exhorts  to seek first the Kingdom of God, in Matt.6:25-32 Jesus draws a stark comparison between life in The kingdom  verses how life is spent on earth.

So we seek God's kingdom when we look to him for the everything. Your purpose life , your creative consciousness , your relationships and your daily provisions. You embrace your calling and how the Kingdom of God  has instilled unique talents in your life to BE USED by God to release more transformative power to you. You are blessed by God, he highly favors you Matthews 5 through 7 has some clear spiritual truths , too many to list. But for your edification. We may well be the  winning team God sends into the game. Or be parents of them. Either Way sharpen your tools and be a beacon for Christ.

Amen and amen. I am a person who is always thinking. So I made myself a bible - especially New Testament - reading schedule to keep my mind fed and going in the better directions of thought. Hopefully HiS directions.. Otherwise my mind can have a mind of its own, haha! And I learned to think a lot about logic. Which the root word of, is logos. The written logos, I now think of as the written logic.
    Which our understanding of Truth, for a while, looks somewhat like a Picasso painting. Or maybe the confusing back of a tapestry as opposed to the front tapestry of beauty. (The tip of the sWord can separate and thus take away every untrue thread?)
    A first logic which has been a blessing to me is ?perfect?. God can only be perfect. Otherwise, all creation would have returned to dust (nothingness) long ago! Surely? If everything imperfect fades away.. it must have been all created by a force that IS perfect! And does not fade away.
    And then, what are the qualities and attributes of ?perfect?? :dsunny:
:Chinscratch: Interesting Mikiel, you brought up God speaks both good and evil.. That?s a verse I researched the original word and meaning at biblehub.com (their int/interlinear) and found more closely it reads - I the LORD create light and darkness, good and evil/calamity? which logically, I figure He did when He created thinking and reasoning ability! Surely?? And what was his other option?
    It?s truly amazing! Just how do you create fully rational, thus able to make choices, beings, aNd, keep paradise/perfection intact? Which logically, is what He is doing. And as Life, he witnesses and lives through all sufferings and evils that ever occur! :faint: And He endowed thinking ability anyway!

   

Quote from: marie glen on April 06, 2022, 05:32:04 AM
Amen and amen. I am a person who is always thinking. So I made myself a bible - especially New Testament - reading schedule to keep my mind fed and going in the better directions of thought. Hopefully HiS directions.. Otherwise my mind can have a mind of its own, haha! And I learned to think a lot about logic. Which the root word of, is logos. The written logos, I now think of as the written logic.
    Which our understanding of Truth, for a while, looks somewhat like a Picasso painting. Or maybe the confusing back of a tapestry as opposed to the front tapestry of beauty. (The tip of the sWord can separate and thus take away every untrue thread?)
    A first logic which has been a blessing to me is ?perfect?. God can only be perfect. Otherwise, all creation would have returned to dust (nothingness) long ago! Surely? If everything imperfect fades away.. it must have been all created by a force that IS perfect! And does not fade away.
    And then, what are the qualities and attributes of ?perfect?? :dsunny:
:Chinscratch: Interesting Mikiel, you brought up God speaks both good and evil.. That?s a verse I researched the original word and meaning at biblehub.com (their int/interlinear) and found more closely it reads - I the LORD create light and darkness, good and evil/calamity? which logically, I figure He did when He created thinking and reasoning ability! Surely?? And what was his other option?
    It?s truly amazing! Just how do you create fully rational, thus able to make choices, beings, aNd, keep paradise/perfection intact? Which logically, is what He is doing. And as Life, he witnesses and lives through all sufferings and evils that ever occur! :faint: And He endowed thinking ability anyway!

   

Greetings Marie Glen ,


Your writings are quite unique v because you think that way.
I too think God's perfection is unique.  His perfection comes from his freedom. He is free from all flaws or defects. And he is free from sin. So his perfection is flawless. God has always been perfect  But the perfection he is creating for us is the kind that was born in sin and must mature into perfection. This is one reason he created evil , for our creation. Evil did not always exist ,so God had Christ create it. Our creation is intended to be weak in our nature. And like salmon ..must swim upstream against the current to get home, that is how God has written
The human  legend, we must grow against the the current.

Quote from: Mickiel on April 05, 2022, 10:10:33 PM

You will be surprised at God if you ask him to teach you to live right. The opportunities will just pop up every now and then. Different situations to help you have widespread to experience.

So we seek God's kingdom when we look to him for the everything.

:thumbsup:

Just some more of a guideline for our thinking and lifestyle;

2 Cor 4;5 " But we don't preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord."

Eph 4;14 " No longer children tossed about by every wind of doctrine by men"

A guide of some of the false stuff to avoid;

Phil 3;19 " Enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction,
                whose god is their appetite,
                 whose glory is in their shame,
                  who set their mind on earthly things."

Col 2;18 " Let no one defraud you of your peace by insisting on self-humility of mind and worship of angels."

Col 3;23 " Have the appearance of wisdom with self-imposed religious piety, false humility, harsh control of body,
               but they are of NO value against gratification of the flesh."

Then the recommendation of behaviour by Paul;

2 Tim 22;23-25 " Refuse foolish and ignorant speculations- they produce quarrels.
                         Necessary that a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome,
                          kind to all,
                         able to teach,
                          patient when wronged,
                         in gentleness correcting those who are in opposition."

Titus 3;9 " Avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, and strife, and disputes about the law for they are harmful and useless."

This, I.M.O because of this under-lying concept;

Phil 3;10 " Know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings."

Col 3;1-4 " If then, you were raised with the Christ, seek the things above, where the Christ is seated on the right hand of God;
                 set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth
                 for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
                 When Christ, Who is your life, appears,
                 then you too will be revealed in glory WITH HIM."

Awesome!!

Quote from: Ross on April 06, 2022, 09:03:33 AM

Quote from: Mickiel on April 05, 2022, 10:10:33 PM

You will be surprised at God if you ask him to teach you to live right. The opportunities will just pop up every now and then. Different situations to help you have widespread to experience.

So we seek God's kingdom when we look to him for the everything.

:thumbsup:

Just some more of a guideline for our thinking and lifestyle;

2 Cor 4;5 " But we don't preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord."

Eph 4;14 " No longer children tossed about by every wind of doctrine by men"

A guide of some of the false stuff to avoid;

Phil 3;19 " Enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction,
                whose god is their appetite,
                 whose glory is in their shame,
                  who set their mind on earthly things."

Col 2;18 " Let no one defraud you of your peace by insisting on self-humility of mind and worship of angels."

Col 3;23 " Have the appearance of wisdom with self-imposed religious piety, false humility, harsh control of body,
               but they are of NO value against gratification of the flesh."

Then the recommendation of behaviour by Paul;

2 Tim 22;23-25 " Refuse foolish and ignorant speculations- they produce quarrels.
                         Necessary that a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome,
                          kind to all,
                         able to teach,
                          patient when wronged,
                         in gentleness correcting those who are in opposition."

Titus 3;9 " Avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, and strife, and disputes about the law for they are harmful and useless."

This, I.M.O because of this under-lying concept;

Phil 3;10 " Know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings."

Col 3;1-4 " If then, you were raised with the Christ, seek the things above, where the Christ is seated on the right hand of God;
                 set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth
                 for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
                 When Christ, Who is your life, appears,
                 then you too will be revealed in glory WITH HIM."

Awesome!!

Greetings Ross ,a good Bible study this is,

I wanted to elaborate  on Eph.4:14 no longer children tossed around by every wind of men's doctrine. I think this does a lot of damage to believers. We need to appeal to Christ to help us here , and really know your bible. Behind this is Satan devil. , Blowing believers away , crippled teaching by the cunning craftiness and deceitful scheming. In example, believers are shown Hebrews 13:8 and some other verses to say God and Jesus never changes. Well their character never changes, but what's wrong with them changing in other areas? God and Christ did not create themselves , but they did create parts of themselves. In Psalms 104:2 God covers himself with light as a garment. He clothed himself with honor and majesty.  And the next day he may wear something else. Why should they look the same all of the  time? In Ps. 93 , he clothed himself with majesty and girded himself with strength. In Job 40:10In John 17:19 Jesus sanctifies himself. They had these things before , but they added more or created more.

So they most definitely change certain things about themselves. They are not boring beings who lack style. They
Have style and glory about themselves , and they are beautiful, sometimes the Bible describes them  as it would a woman, flowing and glowing and very majestic.

In Phil.3:10 "That we may know him and the power of his resurrection. , and the fellowship of his sufferings. Being made comfortable unto his death."  Jesus resurrection destroyed all sin, and. Ushered in free salvation..when we fellowship with his sufferings , we know that our suffering has meaning, we share in it with our Lord. You become comfortable with his Death by dying daily. 8 years of lung cancer stage 4, they tell me I can die any day now, so I put that in Jesus hands , so.i Die daily , becoming more comfortable with death. In Job 36:26 God is great we know him not. This is where we begin.

Quote from: Mickiel on April 06, 2022, 07:41:46 PM
In Phil.3:10 "That we may know him and the power of his resurrection. , and the fellowship of his sufferings. Being made comfortable unto his death."  Jesus resurrection destroyed all sin, and. Ushered in free salvation..when we fellowship with his sufferings , we know that our suffering has meaning, we share in it with our Lord. You become comfortable with his Death by dying daily. 8 years of lung cancer stage 4, they tell me I can die any day now, so I put that in Jesus hands , so.i Die daily , becoming more comfortable with death. In Job 36:26 God is great we know him not. This is where we begin.

Would be the concept that to live is Christ, to die is gain.

Yes to live is Christ to die is gain, with death we gain the weight of the New Birth. I like the way Gary spoke of death, he said the death of the first death is the second death. It's usually chili to speak of death. Makes you pinch yourself.

Salvation is the sandwich between death and life. It is our dinner at a glorious banquet that awaits us and then on to eternity we go! We will travel first class and we have our reservations for free. Salvation : the freedom of the saints. Jesus, who had never known death , experienced it for us . An experience the Father God does not have himself.  So the Father went outside of himself to share himself with a new kind of crop of creation that eternity welcomes to the table. Praise God we have a solid salvation that God went besides himself  in presenting the host of heaven these new marvels that now loops the love of God around his great table.

No wonder all creation is groaning while awaiting the system upgrade.

Quote from: Ross on April 08, 2022, 05:01:05 AM
No wonder all creation is groaning while awaiting the system upgrade.
[/quot

:rolllol:

Quote from: Mickiel on April 08, 2022, 06:58:02 AM

Quote from: Ross on April 08, 2022, 05:01:05 AM
No wonder all creation is groaning while awaiting the system upgrade.
[/quot

:rolllol:

The system upgrade i like that. I could do a lot with that inspiration thoughts it brings to the surface. The Kingdom is continually setting records., Christ no longer is speaking in the manner he was, witholding further truths about himself and the Kingdom. In Col. 1:26 , the saints are being upgraded.. No more parables.Humanity missed out during  Christ teaching In parables anyway, they did not believe anyhow  , only the saints understood some of it. An upgrade of understanding is needed in the world , and a plate of understanding is given to the saints at every days meal. The new birth is an upgrade , in my view it is an extraction from the flesh into the spirit. It is the " Nativity In the spirit", born again , brought into a totally new life existence..An otherworldly transition that has no birth defects. I know many saints believe they are born again right now, pre-Kingdom, i am indifferent to that, I believe born again is in the Kingdom , where there is no sexes , neither male or female, as one can plainly see in Gal. 3:28. If people were born again and the Kingdom was already here, there can be no sexes,  And we will be slaves to nothing. I don't understand how these are ignored or explained away by some. As if Christ is still teaching in parables. But you know, we see what we see, we can only be conscious of , those things we are conscious of.

There will be billions of  born again humans in the Kingdom. A number that  no man could number. Rev.7 :9-10, After the this I saw a great number of all nations , kindreds , and people, and tongues , stood before the throne , and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes and palms In their hands and cried with a loud voice , saying , Salvation to our God which sits on the  throne , and unto the Lamb. This is what the Kingdom of God will look like. Born again humans will dress like. This is the first day of the Kingdom of God ,the first day of born from above. These are they who have washed their robe in the blood of the Lamb.

In verse 17 ,"For the Lamb is in "The Midst" of them. The same greek.used in Luke 17:20, Jesus was "Among them":, the Kingdom was in their midst.lt was Jesus.

The Kingdom of God is within you, believers who grab the Kingdom at first sight will get the wrong impression, because of their strong desire to have that kingdom in them. The better translation would be "In your midst" , or "Among you". Jesus was telling them he was the Kingdom among them. This subject has been blown out of proportion. It is only mentioned In scripture once , Luke 17 : 21. Those one scripture doctrines always strike a nerve in Christianity. And their topics are usually morbidly obese. They grow outside of scripture , because they cannot grow inside of the bible . If God or Christ view it as important, the scriptures would reflect that.

I want to stress that these are my views. Could I be wrong , oh please, of course I could be wrong. I been wrong about things in scripture for years. I have read the same scripture and held to my interpretation, then 25 years later find out I was wrong. So I just wanted to make that clear, I am not a theologian. I am like anyone here, searching for the truth.

To step into eternity are footprints awaiting us like life in the sand. The nature of all things we know will change. Our existence will change. Our whole body will change. The nature of existence is to exist. No more vampires of sin trying to drain our very lives from us. No more nomads of death titans to attack. The small short question "God is", will have no time  limit to learn. Salvation will open up it's true nature to us and we will glean for all eternity. I am hoping that God will grant each of us personal time with him, he has eternity to do it. Oh what that would truly be like. To have an audience with King Jesus. I can hardly wait, contain myself. New life opening to us like a flower blooming.We will walk in the light of the Lord. And  beat our swords into plowshares.

Before this begins we may have a day seven women shall take hold of  one man, saying,we will eat our own bread, and buy their own clothes, only let us be called by your name , to take away our reproach. Seven wives. My goodness. Ohh I like this Bible.

In Eph. 4:23, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. With the belief of the Kingdom of God is here now , one should  not have any problem in trying to at least understand that  being born again
is transformative.  If you can make it this far, then understand that we are not to be conformed to this world, we must not then, in any manner. , Try to bring down the Kingdom now and conform it to this world through you. Oh no, but their is the need to be transformed, which is to be metamorphose, changed in appearance, structure and your form. It's not just a conscious being born again, the transformation is complete when we are caught up into the air to meet Christ. In my view,, that is being born again. Yes it's a renewing of the mind, I will agree that the renewing of the mind has begun on earth. But we cannot separate being born again from the transformation.

Greetings,
If I may continue with topic. The born again saga  can be witnessed in Matt.17:2, Mark 9:2-3, and Luke 9:28-36.  The transfiguration when Christ showed his disciple's his appearance , his appearance was in radiant glory. And the transfiguration changed Christ into beautiful spiritual state. It is clearly a complete change of body, form and spiritual state of being. In scripture the transfiguration means a change of form and how you now appear.

Born again in my view you are given a new and typically exalted or spiritual appearance and state of being. Transmutation , permutation , change over , reformation and transfigured. These may help your search for born again. Satan will push you into the Kingdom being here now and the transfiguration to be separate from being born again. Under those circumstances more confusion is allowed in our midst.

 :cloud9:

Quote from: Ross on April 08, 2022, 05:01:05 AM
No wonder all creation is groaning while awaiting the system upgrade.

Oh wow! I love that too! ..I plan to use it one of these days! As something heard. System upgrade! It?s quite fitting! And it will be glorious!

Quote from: Mickiel on April 09, 2022, 12:31:29 AM
The Kingdom of God is within you, believers who grab the Kingdom at first sight will get the wrong impression, because of their strong desire to have that kingdom in them. The better translation would be "In your midst" , or "Among you". Jesus was telling them he was the Kingdom among them. This subject has been blown out of proportion. It is only mentioned In scripture once , Luke 17 : 21. Those one scripture doctrines always strike a nerve in Christianity. And their topics are usually morbidly obese. They grow outside of scripture , because they cannot grow inside of the bible . If God or Christ view it as important, the scriptures would reflect that.

   :thumbsup: I agree!

Quote from: Mickiel on April 09, 2022, 04:38:25 AM
To step into eternity are footprints awaiting us like life in the sand. The nature of all things we know will change. Our existence will change. Our whole body will change. The nature of existence is to exist. No more vampires of sin trying to drain our very lives from us. No more nomads of death titans to attack. The small short question "God is", will have no time  limit to learn. Salvation will open up it's true nature to us and we will glean for all eternity. I am hoping that God will grant each of us personal time with him, he has eternity to do it. Oh what that would truly be like. To have an audience with King Jesus. I can hardly wait, contain myself. New life opening to us like a flower blooming.We will walk in the light of the Lord. And  beat our swords into plowshares.

    :thumbsup:

Quote from: Mickiel on April 09, 2022, 04:38:25 AM
Before this begins we may have a day seven women shall take hold of  one man, saying,we will eat our own bread, and buy their own clothes, only let us be called by your name , to take away our reproach. Seven wives. My goodness. Ohh I like this Bible.

I?ve never understood (been able to see) this prophecy.. And I?m really into biblical prophecy.. I suppose it?s prophecy concerning days of collapse..  :Chinscratch: thanks! I think that?s it!

Quote from: Mickiel on April 10, 2022, 08:58:36 AM
In Eph. 4:23, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. With the belief of the Kingdom of God is here now , one should  not have any problem in trying to at least understand that  being born again
is transformative.  If you can make it this far, then understand that we are not to be conformed to this world, we must not then, in any manner. , Try to bring down the Kingdom now and conform it to this world through you. Oh no, but their is the need to be transformed, which is to be metamorphose, changed in appearance, structure and your form. It's not just a conscious being born again, the transformation is complete when we are caught up into the air to meet Christ. In my view,, that is being born again. Yes it's a renewing of the mind, I will agree that the renewing of the mind has begun on earth. But we cannot separate being born again from the transformation.

Amen.. Hebrews 11, talking about martyrs throughout the centuries, concludes with ? they were not perfected without us ? which to me, also refutes the idea of every person having a judgment day at their death and either perfected ? aFter the judgment (Rev.20) ? or purified, punished or corrected. Which I believe those parts of the program (transformation process) are collective (and still in the heart individual, of course. But what I think it says is man?s empire self destructs in a number of ways, and the Lord returns during the (fiery) culmination. (I think God calls it His actions and judgment, and I think it is in the sense of cause and effect.. not like Thor throwing thunder bolts - even if it is called like lightning (quick). It?s actually what Itruly think His wrath/ire is. (How He made a cause and effect universe.)
     Then of course begins His long second advent, and of course the millennium (a Sabbath, and 7th millennium). Rev.20 says the judgment is after the millennium. And there?s verse 5, that ? the rest of the dead rise not until after the thousand years. Now, for some time, I have thought, this judgment day, simply cannot be some flash in the pan event! What ligic is there to that? Our Father, I think, is a veRy good and thorough teacher (of this lesson of Good from evil/notGood) we are learning. And logically, what a great way to teally drive home the lesson.. a great day of the review of all history.
    Like something you mentioned earlier, if something is true, it will be built upon. If it?s the Lord Jesus, or the Father teaching us something, He will build upon it.. keep teaching it in greater detail and depth. One way of testing True from not true?
    Then I realized, wow.. all those generations, of all the nations, down through the millennia, of all who have ever lived, I believe shall rise in all the colorful panorama of their day.. All manner of people, most I have to believe simply happy to be alive! But some, INITIALLY, more like the setting of the Laarus and rich man parable, and tbe outside-of-the-vision narrative of Rev.22, with some weeping, weeping, gnashing of teeth, and even some outer darkness.
    If I?ve mentioned this before, well, I can be pretty forgetful. :doh:
     Imagine my surprise after all this, quite a while, to finally realize the impact of what in the scripture is called an 8th day the last great day! And look at this - John 7:37 ? Now in the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink! ? A glimpse of that 8th day (Rev.20:7-15) including the realest reality (lol)of THE day of atonement. And vs.15, the lake of fire mention, is surely at the END or after day/age of judgment. ? If anyone is found - have to search far and wide by then? - whose name is not written in the book of life, they will be purified (with the devil and his angels) in the fire (of the fiery regenesis? Rev.21:1-5, 2Pet.3:12-13, verse 10 and 12-13 being bookend fiery events of the Lord?s long second advent?)
:Peace2:

And amen :thumbsup: about the transfiguration, and transformation.. Jesus is first/proto, the prototype! But folks can get puffed up about that.. and forget that ? God alone will be exalted in that day ? which I think includes the day of man?s empire?s judgment/fall and all that follows.. actually forever. :gsmile:

Greetings Marie Glen,

I really have questions about the so called millennium. I wrestle with it so pray for me I have asked God and Christ for understanding, but they do not respond. I just have trouble understanding the event. The devil and his demons are locked inside of a bottomless pit for 1,000 years.Then they are released and they deceive many saints. And this sets off another war

I don't get it

Quote from: Mickiel on April 12, 2022, 06:06:51 AM
Greetings Marie Glen,

I really have questions about the so called millennium. I wrestle with it so pray for me I have asked God and Christ for understanding, but they do not respond. I just have trouble understanding the event. The devil and his demons are locked inside of a bottomless pit for 1,000 years.Then they are released and they deceive many saints. And this sets off another war

I don't get it
[/quote-?

I keep trying to learn about this millennium, it is just strange. But all these things must be a different kind of learning. To those of you who hold tight to no time passing in the Kingdom , here's a 1,000 years set amount of time. It would also mean that born again believers who have lived right, and holy, will be deceived
After all that time in the spirit, they were still deceived .  Also it would mean that Satan and his demons were set loose by angels. First they go to the four corners of the earth , This is of interest , the Kingdom must be heavily populated all over the earth,  and Satan pulls more humans to help his cause.

Satan had plans , and, just as in the garden of Eden, he snatches born again believers to help him kill Christ and God. They fail and loose the war.

Deceiving us on earth was easy for him to do, but these were born again saints of God, and they had the spirit of God for one thousand years. Something is seriously wrong with this .

 The born again in the flesh syndrome always puzzles me.  Even the saga of the millennium is a great mystery to me. I really can't understand the millennium mentioned 6 times in Revelations chapter 20.. again, considering biblical research, a one chapter mention . So we have to really dig. trying to piece this together is a challenge in my view. The millennium supposedly will be in the Kingdom of heaven. Listen that time must be a perfect world ,. With Christ as our ruler, you are believing that after Christ influence on the brethren , Christ and God walking amongst us , that peace will be broken. Micah 4:4 Everyone will sit under the vine and his fig tree.

A thousand years of God still creating , will now be attacked by evil. This pristine  universe is being asked again to do battle with evil. I don't know anything about this millennium , but I know a little bit about God. If this is a true biblical event , then God must have ordered it. So the real research is to find out "Why." What is God getting for staging such an awful event? God is not a  waster of time. He will not tolerate sin in his Kingdom.  He will not co-exist with evil in eternity.

What is God doing? In my view, this kind of event the people will need to understand and be patient with God. And trust that he knows what and why he does things. In Isaiah 9:7, - end of verse, describes it is God's doing" The zeal of the Lord will perform this."He will establish it with judgement and justice forever. He is, God is , but notice this bombshell in Isaiah 9:6-7 look at what names Jesus is called; Wonderful Counselor , the mighty God, the everlasting Father , the Prince of peace. Here Jesus is called the mighty God , and the Father. Wow! I surely don't understand this, now im all twisted and floored.

Another thing that interest me about this event the millennium, the saints that are deceived a second time , Satan quickly deceives  them to join ranks with him , Rev.20:8, the number of saints deceived , may be in the millions, the number of which is as the sands of the sea. All now join Satan who marches to the great Holy City.  They get to the holy city and are slaughtered by the fire of God.
God help me ,I don't want to be among them. God will still  give them eternal life.

There has been wars about the varying opinions and interpretations of how the end/changes will come about.

Some reckon they go before the tribulation, some after, some during.

Some reckon the 1000 years has already happened; is happening; is going to happen; then they disagree about the purpose of the 1000 years.

Have not heard many talk about the Great White Throne period.
Most seem to be thinking that the majority of mankind will be in hell forever- which, to me, instills fear of rejection into the heart of many.

Then the debate about the New Jerusalem- where is that from and where does that go.
Many also reckon there is not going to be a new earth, but a rehash of said earth.

The debates seem to be so that people will not be able to claim their rights into heaven as that would negate the work of Christ and cause disputes left, right, and centre.

One way; one door; one point of entrance- Christ.

The flesh cannot grasp that data. This, for me, is why the need for divine revelation so that no-one can boast in personal effort.
We all appear to be along that concept.

So then, for me, the logical presentation of the future which is to come, being glorious beyond our imagination abilities, must come along a logically planned route for the ultimate outcome.

First mankind must go through the tribulation.
Many will die, but some will not. There appears to be protection for the ecclesia like the pass-over of the lamb during the Egyptian incident. The ecclesia have already been judged and will have their new bodies when first resurrected. 

Then the ecclesia will go to the heavens for 1000 years of training- during which they will probably go to work among those who have been saved during the tribulation, but were NOT part of the ecclesia.
Those who are to be converted or saved during that process will have to go through the second death.
During that 1000 years there will not be  any satanic input, so mankind will not be distracted from the truth, nor will they be able to blame anything or anyone else for their mistakes.



Then the devil  will gather enemies against the saints on earth. This seems to point out that some will have gone through the tribulation but are still not corrected spiritually.
No length of time for that budding event.

Then the devil removed permanently after the battle.

Then there is the Great White Throne period for the correction of the remainder of mankind and those who have been resurrected from the dead. This will be another great time of learning for those who are currently not aware of the plan.
No time period for that process.

Then the second death for those who have been corrected, judged during that Great White Throne period.

THEN the New Jerusalem coming down to the NEW earth.
Still refers to nations coming before that New Jerusalem [ Rev 21;24]
Also points out the tree of life with water flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb.
Literal living water.

This appears to be a rather brilliant process with the glorious outcome for ALL MANKIND- but each in their own time as we are all children of the one Father through Christ.
WOW!

No time limit in the equation.
Mankind in the flesh has tried to explain all this- but cannot grasp the story- pretty much why the tower of Babel, and disagreement about doctrinal issues is all around us so that no-one can claim personal glory.

C.U

 Yes I have heard the scripture slogan , " The Great White  Throne Judgement." We Universalist need look close here. In Rev. 20:12-15. Books were opened, then separately another book is opened which is the book of life. A period of judgement ensues. Every person gets judged. Now verse 15 states that whoever was not found, just written in the book,  just written in it, this book of life , they were cast into the lake of fire. If your a true Universalist , you believe that no one is lost , then you can dismiss verse 15. Another scripture i don't understand. Is the Bible trying to be threatening? Looking to intimidate the reader?

I have heard the Bible is one of those books opened,  I can see that. but I don't think God is going to judge anyone. John 5:22, "For the Father judges no man , but has committed all judgement to the Son." This from Jesus mouth so it's solid truth. The Father will not judge any human. And really Jesus does not want to either, but if he has to , then it will be true. John 8:15, "You judge after the flesh, I judge no man ". These verses point us to universalism for sure. The Father saying he's not judging anyone. Jesus staying literally the same thing , after Jesus says he judges no man,  so it's an after thought that he states "If I judge, my judgement is true and he's not alone in this magnificent moment."So again Jesus is the vine of God, connecting him to the world. Salvation is based on And is more than enough food to eat, no one will starve , and all are invited, John 17:1-2.Look at how much the Father has invested in Christ: he gives Jesus any judgement that Christ deems necessary, power overall flesh, power over eternal life, he then is Salvation , just as he was the Kingdom in our midst . The. "Reason" for judgement really is to determine other things , like  specialty rewards , crowns for righteousness, positions , property , and how you are expected to serve. No sin in humans will be judged. But IF Christ has to judge something special , then he will. This is how I am impressed here. If anywhere in the Bible judgement is mentioned and humans must suffer, be punished in the Kingdom , it's best taken with a grain of salt. With Jesus overall control of salvation , there is no book that can change that or over rule it.

The Great White Throne Judgement, or the location of this event is at God's throne. We need not fear this event , and convince others not to fear God's or Jesus judgement. This is the foundation of the Great White Throne Judgement, ; John 3:17-18 , "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but ,( or rather) , that the world' through him might be saved. The term " Might", here is best used  in the expression "Expressed possibility",  that the world through him has an expressed possibility to be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned , but unbelievers are condemned already. Because they don't believe . Well what is the condemnation, eternal hell punishing , no, vs.19 gives the punishment;"And this is the punishment , that men will be confused by seeing so much darkness that they can't see the light that has come into the world. They are spiritually blind, that is the condemnation , It means God strongly disapproves.

And Jesus has their unbelief covered. In John 12:47, "And if any man hears my words and believes not, I judge him not, I came into the world not to judge it , but to save it." As mentioned before, Jesus is not going to judge this world. Again you need to believe this,Jesus is not going to judge the world. John 8:15, "You judge after the flesh, I judge no man". It does not matter if they do not believe, consider Romans 3:3,"For what if some don't believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God ineffectual ? God forbid, the faith of God has saved them already.

I admit to my doubts concerning the millennium , which is mentioned six times in scripture, all 6 in Revelation 20. Just to list some of my skeptical observations ; if your one of those who believe time does not exist in the Kingdom , explain to me
how you are hiding a one thousand year count down from your belief?  Why the Apostle Paul completely ignored the event in 1 Corinth. 15:22-50? He speaks of Christ coming in the end.Jesus delivers the Kingdom to God, all things are placed under God's feet. He goes into the resurrection , in vs.35- 39, vs 38,"But God gives a body after the resurrection as it has pleased him, to every seed his own body. Again God already has each humans body in his spirit seed in the Kingdom. He literally discets the resurrection  , making it very plain to understand. No flesh and blood shall inherit the Kingdom, no flesh of humanity living outside of the Holy City.

Also the main thing that bugs me is Satan is bound and "Sealed" so he could not deceive anyone for one thousand years. Yet he is loosed and after a little season and still is able to seduce millions of saints, whose number is as the sands of the sea. Even before this event John saw another war that occurs before Satan is  bound . In  Rev.19:11-19, especially verse 19, "To make war against Christ and his army . Then Satan is bound after that war. Saints are being trained and indoctrinated , they grow stronger daily. They walk with God and Christ for one thousand years. This is not the church age members , these are they who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. Satan knocked around churches with relative ease on earth. Now we're taking about millions of Saints , spirit Being brothren who have experienced nothing but increase , they are way more powerful than believers in the flesh.

Now Satan is loosed and he immediately starts deceiving . You mean to tell me you believe this? Perfect saints full of the spirit. Yet you think Satan can brush aside billions of angelic beings , who are our helpers? Wow

 I would like to ask for an explanation about the millennium. Is it fair of me to ask for an explanation? Am I wrong for requesting that you explain your belief? Anyone who believes this.


Hello.

The very miracle of being born again must certainly be untypical transformation. It is a spiritual metamorphosis  that God induces change from , in our case,  a temporary physio chemical element of existence , into another completely different newly spawned spirit being by a nuclear process. Not as much concentration on who we are , but what we now are. It is transformation in form of appearance , and those who would change this from a entirely morph from one being into another, to just a change in belief and character , really do this electrifying process a terrible disservice. This is why so many believers think they transformed themselves , which reduces it from instantaneous power , to stages of change on a human level. This is also a way of robbing God. You are reducing his talent , the more self is inverted , the more human talent can reduce God's talent. In the true New Birth , all abilities are acredited to God. Will a man rob God? Well yes, every change in the false new birth cannot be done without the human. Robbing God of love and respect, that he may have preeminence in all things.

Quote from: Mickiel on April 16, 2022, 07:27:46 PM
The very miracle of being born again must certainly be untypical transformation. It is a spiritual metamorphosis  that God induces change from , in our case,  a temporary physio chemical element of existence , into another completely different newly spawned spirit being by a nuclear process. Not as much concentration on who we are , but what we now are. It is transformation in form of appearance , and those who would change this from a entirely morph from one being into another, to just a change in belief and character , really do this electrifying process a terrible disservice. This is why so many believers think they transformed themselves , which reduces it from instantaneous power , to stages of change on a human level. This is also a way of robbing God. You are reducing his talent , the more self is inverted , the more human talent can reduce God's talent. In the true New Birth , all abilities are acredited to God. Will a man rob God? Well yes, every change in the false new birth cannot be done without the human. Robbing God of love and respect, that he may have preeminence in all things.

Now not to confuse growing in character as a type of transformation , growing in spirit or grace can begin in the flesh. 2Corinth. 3:18," And we all, who with unvieled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever increasing glory, which "Comes from the Lord", who is the spirit. Here we can see the believer is constantly increasing in glory. Even still no flesh can glory in his presence , 1Corinth. 1:29.  and so even ever increasing glory in the flesh I would caution. However the believers mind can be transformed by a consciousness that is experiencing totally new thinking, which begins in the flesh. Romans 12:2.

In conversion we cannot give ourselves credit for anything. The Bible really frowns on self righteousness , and for good reason. In my view , self righteousness is the number one sin among believers. And the hardest to detect. It is easily the number one way that Satan can masquerade as God. You become ignorant of God's righteousness and Satan has you going about your own righteousness , and this sin is so dangerous that it can make you think that your saved through your own faith, and not by the grace of God. Satan has really penetrated deeply into churches here, where "Confession" is a must for salvation,  you can't even be saved unless you confess, you believe , you repent , you obey , you go to church and you must accept Christ, underneath this layer of all these things you must do, is Satan masquerading as God. Opening you up and softening you up for some serious deceptions.

 Just what is Satan doing to a believer who he is opening up and softening you up for some serious deceptions. Firstly he wants to operate on you without you knowing it. Make changes in you that you are convinced come from God. These are "Cognitive Distortions." Mental filtering. Thought origins. Emotional reasoning and how to change. Had I the time I would go into each stripe, let's just fast forward and say Satan has finished your training and you are fully striped. These are all prime examples of cognitive distortions , you are selfishly interpreting events in your life , as Satan is masterfully leading you to think that it is God leading you. In short, they are habitual habits and errors in thinking. Reinforced by a selfish view of scripture. Selfish ambition and vain conceit, Phil.2:3.

What Satan is after in the final analysis is to have your envy and selfish ambition. Once there you will find disorder and every evil practice that is blinding and seducing, always keeping you unawares. With believers at this stage, Satan is uninterested in easy to discover sins and plastic meaningless time invested in you.

Quote from: Mickiel on April 09, 2022, 01:21:40 AM


I want to stress that these are my views. Could I be wrong , oh please, of course I could be wrong. I been wrong about things in scripture for years. I have read the same scripture and held to my interpretation, then 25 years later find out I was wrong. So I just wanted to make that clear, I am not a theologian. I am like anyone here, searching for the truth.

tky for ur honesty m humility

Quote from: joeteekay on March 31, 2022, 12:16:56 AM
I agree with you Mickiel. Just to add my take on the event in the garden of Eden:

It is interesting that it was God who planted the tree which contained both good and evil, not just good. God intentionally put evil into that one tree. The knowledge of good is dependent upon the knowledge of evil. Hence the tree in the garden was not, as we usually think of it, merely the means of knowing evil, it was the means, primarily, of the knowledge of good. Before they sinned Adam and Eve had good but did not realize it because they had had no experience of evil.

It is readily acknowledged that we want what is good and not evil. We strive for the good but we oftentimes experience evil. Before they sinned, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good. Good lay all about them, unmixed with evil. They had health, strength, honor, and companionship with one another. Yet they knew nothing of the blessedness of these blessings. This we learn from the name given to the tree which bore the forbidden fruit. To many minds it suggests only the knowledge of evil, rather than good.

p.s. I wonder if this thread should be split into a couple of different topics to better reflect the content of the posts. Of course one being "Born Again" (the original topic), another being the kingdom verses and another being the garden of Eden. Jabcat may have an opinion. Just my opinion.  :dontknow:

yes, God bounds us all to futility that he have mercy on all...its all his purpose...his choice to do it like this

Quote from: jabcat on March 02, 2022, 09:22:26 PM

Quote from: darryl on March 02, 2022, 03:13:26 PM
i prefer 'born from above'.... :gimmefive:

Yes Darryl, that's actually the original Greek for "born again";  born from above.

Strong's indicates;  313/anagenn?ō ("born again, from above") is used  in the NT in (1 Pet 1:3,23)-  referring to God regenerating a believer (giving a supernatural, new birth).

yes, Jabcat..that's why I prefer it..also 'born again' has some negative connotations for some people



So connecting to the OP;  I BELIEVE/UNDERSTAND it as, that elsewhere Paul explains what getting our new body means;  "to wit, the redemption of our bodies". 

I see him as describing salvation as the initial renewal of the spirit (born again/from above), the salvation of the soul (sanctification, "growing in grace and knowledge") and then "finally, the redemption of our body" (when we are given immortality).

I imagaine others have other insight and can add to that understanding :)

:dsunny:

Quote from: darryl on April 17, 2022, 01:28:33 PM

Quote from: Mickiel on April 09, 2022, 01:21:40 AM


I want to stress that these are my views. Could I be wrong , oh please, of course I could be wrong. I been wrong about things in scripture for years. I have read the same scripture and held to my interpretation, then 25 years later find out I was wrong. So I just wanted to make that clear, I am not a theologian. I am like anyone here, searching for the truth.

tky for ur honesty m humility

Thank you brother.

When you share strong meat 3 things can happen; people can digest it and grow stronger , they can choke on it and get sick , or they can simply reject it. But when you share strong meat it's best to do it prayerfully , humility and honesty because some will dislike you because your doing it. You have to let them know that you too have sin and weaknesses that are genuine, and that you understand how things are , and your sharing something else that has made yourself stronger, and that you are giving from a point of view that is coming from a brother who cares and has really experienced what you are talking about. And even when you do that, some will still dispise you..

I believe in sharing so I don't mind the risks involved. And when God comes for me, that he will find me doing this. And hopefully be pleased. Peace.

Hitting back on being born again , as I have explained how  understand it, and listen when there are many conflicting views on a subject, we know it is a sensitive one. It is not a sin to disagree with your brother. It is a sin to hold malice because they disagree with you.

There is no doubt that Christ will transform our lowly bodies to be like his body , Phil. 3:21. I believe the bodies may be already made, 2Corinth.5:1, notice a body "Made" by God. In verse 3 we see an often repeated phrase in scripture , we will put on our new body, again suggesting it is already made, like a garment. Verse 2 comes right out and says we long to put on our new bodies like new clothing. I would not want my new body to be made from my old body. So it makes no difference what condition our old bodies are in, they can be cremated , it makes no difference.

So I believe the transformation , or new birth , or being born again will be some kind of transference in which our consciousness will be put into our new bodies. And there is ample scriptorial evidence for that.

Quote from: Mickiel on April 17, 2022, 09:14:28 PM
Hitting back on being born again , as I have explained how i  understand it, and listen when there are many conflicting views on a subject, we know it is a sensitive one. It is not a sin to disagree with your brother. It is a sin to hold malice because they disagree with you.

There is no doubt that Christ will transform our lowly bodies to be like his body , Phil. 3:21. I believe the bodies may be already made, 2Corinth.5:1, notice a body "Made" by God. In verse 3 we see an often repeated phrase in scripture , we will put on our new body, again suggesting it is already made, like a garment. Verse 2 comes right out and says we long to put on our new bodies like new clothing. I would not want my new body to be made from my old body. So it makes no difference what condition our old bodies are in, they can be cremated , it makes no difference.

So I believe the transformation , or new birth , or being born again will be some kind of transference in which our consciousness will be put into our new bodies. And there is ample scriptorial evidence for that.

In 2Corinth.5:1-21 it speaks of if our earthly tent is destroyed , we have a building made by God's hands. Which we long to be "Clothed with", so the symbolism is not speaking of a building , but a body and heavenly appearal , we will not be found naked.vs4, we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed. In vs 5 the holy spirit is given us as a deposit , which opens the account , guaranteeing what is to come, this is not speaking of being born again on earth then born again, again in heaven. Excuse the pun. In my view being born again is not a deposit, but the end result, fully clothed. Unless you are suggesting that being born again is a partial payment? I would disagree with that. That kind of belief , we may as well be like Nicodemus and ask are we to be born again here on earth, and what, be born again a third time in heaven?

Quote from: Mickiel on April 17, 2022, 11:29:29 PM
In 2Corinth.5:1-21 it speaks of if our earthly tent is destroyed , we have a building made by God's hands. Which we long to be "Clothed with", so the symbolism is not speaking of a building , but a body and heavenly appearal , we will not be found naked.vs4, we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed. In vs 5 the holy spirit is given us as a deposit , which opens the account , guaranteeing what is to come, this is not speaking of being born again on earth then born again, again in heaven. Excuse the pun. In my view being born again is not a deposit, but the end result, fully clothed. Unless you are suggesting that being born again is a partial payment? I would disagree with that. That kind of belief , we may as well be like Nicodemus and ask are we to be born again here on earth, and what, be born again a third time in heaven?

I mean it's not that I would mind being born again three times:; well let me see if its like that. Born from our parents, once , born again on earth when we receive the spirit, twice , born again in heaven when we are changed and transformed into new beings, that's three. That's kind of weird to me.

Just to show you how religions think and believe ;

Many Baptist believe that a person' is born again  , when they believe that Jesus died for their sin and rose again.

Many Protestants believe they are born again if they are gaining faith in Christ. And develop a personal relationship with God.

Jehovah's witnesses believe that being born again only applies to the 144,000.

Methodist believe in being born again in the flesh , as do Quakers.

Most churches believe in being born again in the flesh. It is by far the dominant belief., including Evangelical churches. Catholics believe it may take place at anytime in a person's life. Which is interesting. Are Catholics Christians? Yes, all Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics. Roman Catholics we're the first Christians, and many non Catholics don't like that.

Quote from: Mickiel on April 17, 2022, 08:18:34 PM

Quote from: darryl on April 17, 2022, 01:28:33 PM

Quote from: Mickiel on April 09, 2022, 01:21:40 AM


I want to stress that these are my views. Could I be wrong , oh please, of course I could be wrong. I been wrong about things in scripture for years. I have read the same scripture and held to my interpretation, then 25 years later find out I was wrong. So I just wanted to make that clear, I am not a theologian. I am like anyone here, searching for the truth.

tky for ur honesty m humility

Thank you brother.

When you share strong meat 3 things can happen; people can digest it and grow stronger , they can choke on it and get sick , or they can simply reject it. But when you share strong meat it's best to do it prayerfully , humility and honesty because some will dislike you because your doing it. You have to let them know that you too have sin and weaknesses that are genuine, and that you understand how things are , and your sharing something else that has made yourself stronger, and that you are giving from a point of view that is coming from a brother who cares and has really experienced what you are talking about. And even when you do that, some will still dispise you..

I believe in sharing so I don't mind the risks involved. And when God comes for me, that he will find me doing this. And hopefully be pleased. Peace.

amen !

Take notice of this favorite phraseology the Bible is consistent in using and revealing. In Genesis 3:1, "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God "Had Made". God made the serpent, he was in the field , so God created Satan. In Psalms 118:24 ,"This is the day that the Lord God had Made. Palms 139 again fearfully and wonderfully Made!'" God intimately knows every human. Especially those called. Remember God said "Let us make man." Gen.1:26. In Prov.16:4 The Lord has made everything for his purpose.

Fearfully and wonderfully Made , the Hebrew meaning is with great reverence , heartbeat interest and respect. Wonderfully Made means set apart and unique.
I really believe that our new born again bodies. , God "Has made", already and we will put them on like garments.

Greetings ,thank you for sharing , it is most weird when you go places and are talking with the walls. Speaking for myself , I tend to reach for higher levels when others have speaks with me. You glean all kinds of gems. There are two bodies that we will have occupied by the end. So this can get confusing. In 1Corinth. 15:44. (NIV),  it is sown a natural body , it is "Raised a spiritual body". If There is a natural body , then it's also a spiritual body. So there are two bodies. The spirit body, and the physical body. Here one of them has to die to get the other.

First Corinth.15:35-49 describes how the ressurected bodies of believers will be different from our current bodies. Resurrected bodies will not be reanimated corpses . These corrupt bodies are like seeds that are sown  to bring to life the plant . These born again body's on earth, in some belief, they believe Its.
necessary . A believer with the holy spirit on earth , in comparison to our spirit bodies in heaven , the difference is as a star is from a fish.

In practical terms being born is the emergence of a new individual from the body of its parent. Born again while still being in the fleshly body , is within itself a radical belief. Worldly and lacking in understanding is what the religious world thinks of universalism. So when our doctrine matches one of theirs , a caution flag needs to go out. The born again doctrine seems to match some of our camp , that is major concern to me. Commonly Universalist beliefs are far differing than religion. This born again doctrine is actually putting some asleep in the accusition of truth. They are cutting their flow of knowledge from God. If a believer is choking on a doctrine , why would God continue to feed them other things.

This is a serious matter. Even the first fruits of God, whoever they will be,  in Romans 8:23 , "Those which have the first fruits of the spirit, will be uncomfortable  waiting ,"To be adopted , and the redemption of the body". In  vs  24-25 they are hoping for the redemption of a body that they cannot see. They cannot see the New Birth , but with patience hope for it. The other group of believers are not hoping for the redemption of their Body, because they  already have it.

In vs 24 hope that is "Seen" , is not hope. If you already have a gift of God, why hope for it? The desire for it is not the same. So I view it as taking the Kingdom by force, those who have the born again gift, will not give it up. Oh no!  Why hope for being born when you already are. This is a war in their minds.Rom. 8:23, the law of the flesh verses the law of the spirit. They are not waiting to be adopted , they already have . Rom.8 : 15 they have a spirit of adoption , no,no, they have a spirit that is already born again. With them it's an individual thing there can be no, vs.17, glorified together as a whole , no- they are already glorified or born again.

The whole creation groans and the true church will groan TOGETHER . In my view this means the church will all receive the spirit together, and be born again together. The liberty is being freed from the flesh. Removed completely from it ,  freed from the body of flesh. Being born again is a group thing , whole cities and whole countries will be born again together. The new birth is in mass, with the exception of the first fruits , which I may or may not have met. Those few I have known, are just like the Bible describes them., Foolish , weak , ignorant people  i may have met. 1 Corinth.1:22-31. The base people God will
call , or those on the bottom. I can't speak for others, but My life has been even worse than the anointed. God and Christ are protecting them, why? Not because they are spiritual giants , if anything and the scripture does revel , the called out anointed people are in bad shape , just like ancient Israel. That is why God protects  them and hide them in my view. And straighten out their heads , God bless their heart.

In Romans 6: 6-8 are several concepts we can consider. The message here is that our old man be crucified with Christ that the body of sin be destroyed.For he that is dead is free from sin. If we be dead with Christ , we shall also live with him. By counting the old life as being sin and it must die , as Christ died, Jesus being raised  to never die again. And anyone who died, their whole life of sin died with them. And they shall never die again because they are born again.
Some believers do not want to taste death , they are afraid of dying. So they hope and pray to be among those who will not die. Their physical bodies will die anyway. Yet many hold on to the born again now belief system, they somehow believe  with it they shall never die.If you are afraid of death, you may as well be afraid of sleeping , they are nearly the same thing.

Quote from: Mickiel on April 21, 2022, 06:22:48 AM
In Romans 6: 6-8 are several concepts we can consider. The message here is that our old man be crucified with Christ that the body of sin be destroyed.For he that is dead is free from sin. If we be dead with Christ , we shall also live with him. By counting the old life as being sin and it must die , as Christ died, Jesus being raised  to never die again. And anyone who died, their whole life of sin died with them. And they shall never die again because they are born again.
Some believers do not want to taste death , they are afraid of dying. So they hope and pray to be among those who will not die. Their physical bodies will die anyway. Yet many hold on to the born again now belief system, they somehow believe  with it they shall never die.If you are afraid of death, you may as well be afraid of sleeping , they are nearly the same thing.

One way we can practice dying daily is to ask God could he teach you  how to sacrifice your sin on the cross of discipline and actually make a list of things you want to stop in your life  and make a dying dialog with God for you to daily deal with those sins, and go over your list each night and lift it up in the air and ask God to anoint your list and keep track of it daily. Work on each one a little here a little there until you have removed items of sin from your life. You partner with Christ to daily work on your sin and ask God to show you how to eliminate the sin in your life. Make you list smaller. To live is Christ and to die our sin is gain. Make your life an habitual way of. Loving you ❣️❣️ love and you dancing daily.

Quote from: Mickiel on April 21, 2022, 11:26:59 AM

Quote from: Mickiel on April 21, 2022, 06:22:48 AM
In Romans 6: 6-8 are several concepts we can consider. The message here is that our old man be crucified with Christ that the body of sin be destroyed.For he that is dead is free from sin. If we be dead with Christ , we shall also live with him. By counting the old life as being sin and it must die , as Christ died, Jesus being raised  to never die again. And anyone who died, their whole life of sin died with them. And they shall never die again because they are born again.
Some believers do not want to taste death , they are afraid of dying. So they hope and pray to be among those who will not die. Their physical bodies will die anyway. Yet many hold on to the born again now belief system, they somehow believe  with it they shall never die.If you are afraid of death, you may as well be afraid of sleeping , they are nearly the same thing.

One way we can practice dying daily is to ask God could he teach you  how to sacrifice your sin on the cross of discipline and actually make a list of things you want to stop in your life  and make a dying dialog with God for you to daily deal with those sins, and go over your list each night and lift it up in the air and ask God to anoint your list and keep track of it daily. Work on each one a little here a little there until you have removed items of sin from your life. You partner with Christ to daily work on your sin and ask God to show you how to eliminate the sin in your life. Make you list smaller. To live is Christ and to die our sin is gain. Make your life an habitual way of. Loving you ❣️❣️ love and you dancing daily.

Amen !..tky brother !

Another way to help your walk with God is to go ahead and ask him to reveal your sin to you. Sin can stay hidden and yet like a cancer it can grow and germinate within you. And for whatever reason you just don't know or recognize it. I have a cancer myself, it's been in stage 4 for 7 years, and they don't rightly know when it began. So Some sins we cannot deal with them until a lot of damage is already done. And God may heal some of it, but not all of it. Interesting then. As in James 1:15 ,  after, see that, "After" your desire has conceived , it gives birth to sin.

My lung cancer was discovered already in stage 4, the stage before death. I wondered why I did not feel anything until it had conceived and grew within me. Some sin, especially the dangerous ones, remain hidden, undetected and unchallenged it will take root and grow like a weed that has becomed established, it will become harder and harder to pull out. It hides, it grows , it kills. So go to God and ask to be shown your hidden sins. Research your sin in God's word. " The unfolding of his words gives light." Psalm 119:130.

God sent the prophet Nathan to King David to reveal his sin to him. Nathan told him the story about a rich man who stole the only lamb a man owned. David burned with anger. In 2Sam.12:15, David said that man deserves to die. Then Nathan said , " You are the man!" It's not a sin to question God , you are asking for clarity. Other sins may be more clear and will find you out, Numbers 32:23

Quote from: Mickiel on April 21, 2022, 10:47:38 PM
Another way to help your walk with God is to go ahead and ask him to reveal your sin to you. Sin can stay hidden and yet like a cancer it can grow and germinate within you. And for whatever reason you just don't know or recognize it. I have a cancer myself, it's been in stage 4 for 7 years, and they don't rightly know when it began. So Some sins we cannot deal with them until a lot of damage is already done. And God may heal some of it, but not all of it. Interesting then. As in James 1:15 ,  after, see that, "After" your desire has conceived , it gives birth to sin.

My lung cancer was discovered already in stage 4, the stage before death. I wondered why I did not feel anything until it had conceived and grew within me. Some sin, especially the dangerous ones, remain hidden, undetected and unchallenged it will take root and grow like a weed that has becomed established, it will become harder and harder to pull out. It hides, it grows , it kills. So go to God and ask to be shown your hidden sins. Research your sin in God's word. " The unfolding of his words gives light." Psalm 119:130.

7 years ?..wowww.well, u still here

God sent the prophet Nathan to King David to reveal his sin to him. Nathan told him the story about a rich man who stole the only lamb a man owned. David burned with anger. In 2Sam.12:15, David said that man deserves to die. Then Nathan said , " You are the man!" It's not a sin to question God , you are asking for clarity. Other sins may be more clear and will find you out, Numbers 32:23

Yes I am still alive, praise God. Twice they had to put my coffin back on the shelf. Learning and believing in God is so different when you think your dying soon. And then 4 years ago when God spoke to me after I was 😢 ng like a baby, tears flowing everywhere, "Oh God why are you killing me?" All he said to me after 62 years of saying nothing to me, "Your still alive", and your one of mine. I was like, is that it? That's all your going to say? But, he was right, I was still alive. And after all the death threats I am still alive for 7 years. I get embarrassed when I tell this story, I had no faith at all.