Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[eaglesway]

As James said, show me your faith without works. I will show you my faith by my works. Nevertheless, because of the legalism of men Paul made the distinction about where faith saves,and it is an important distinction to be maintained. Faith saves before any works are evidence. The evidencevwill follow if faith is real becausevGod is love and love makes a new creature, created to bear the fruit of the connection to Christ, the tru vine.

[Seth]

And AFTER faith comes...A man is justified by works and not by faith ALONE.

That sentence is true. The word justified means "righteous"

[ed]

Only that James defines completed faith as when works follow faith. Left unfollowed by works, faith is alone.

Seriously, I know that the sentence "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" is difficult and not what we were taught and is certainly a hard pill to swallow for many Christians,

JAMES SAYS IT

I WILL SAY IT

"by works a man is justified and not by faith only."

This does not disagree with Paul who said that a man is not justified by works of the LAW.

So, if that sentence is not part of another evangel for other people, then we should have no shame in saying it verbatim "by works a man is justified and not by faith only"

If we cannot say those words directly out of the Bible then I think something is either wrong with that sentence, and should be taken out of the Bible, or there is something wrong with our own understanding, in my opinion.

So do you work your way to justification?

:winkgrin:

[Seth]

Nope, Jesus does it within you. His sheep hear his voice and they follow.

[Seth]

BTW, I don't think that means auditory, but that his ways become their ways naturally, if repentance is real.

[ed]

The important thing to consider is that all Abraham did was believe God and God reckoned righteousness to him.
And Paul in Romans 4 said this was written because of those who are about to be believing God. They too are reckoned righteous.
God loves those He chastens. Being declared righteous does not mean we do not need neeful loving correction.

James 2 has the same quote...........

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

I could appear that Abraham had to prove his faith, I'm not saying that is what it is saying, I've never really looked into this before.  Just wondering your take on it.

:thumbsup:

[Seth]

My take is that it says "the scripture was fulfilled"

In other words, it goes back to what I was saying that the Hebrew understanding did not separate obedience from belief. So, Abraham believed (enumah - was faithful to) God and that enumah was fulfilled by what he did later. It's almost like a prophecy. If Abraham truly has faithfulness, he would obey God about Isaac, and when he did, thus the scripture was fulfilled that he had enumah, faithfulness, a firm planting.

Paul's use of the same scripture reveals righteousness apart from the LAW. Abraham was faithful without the LAW of Moses.

[eaglesway]

By grace you are saved thru faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest anyman should boast.

For what Paul says to b tru and what James says also to be tru.....which they must or the scriptures r broken.... Salvation comes by reconciliation at the cross.....as when the Israelitesbsaw the serpent on a stick and there wound was healed,Christ crucified.

The works come as a result of the healing, the reconciliation, the salvation.

We are created in Christ Jesus for good wirks, but it is out of the new creation, which must come first, Christ in u thbhope of glory, that they come forth from. It is God who is in u to will and to do of His good pleasure.

For me this is simple and it is clear from the whole new testament context in a topical exegesis. That is why we do not hav just James or just Paul. There is a cloud of witnesses.

A good question is this. What works will the reconciled of the Day do, beyond bowing bfore Him, to receive their reconciliation?

I think the abswer is clearly, none.

Also. James must b read as a letter. Not a verse. Their were peoplevseeking and hoarding wealth. Ignoring the needs of their brothers and sisters. He was rebuking these believers, much as Jesus did in Matt 25. He called them, as belivers to repent and to produce works in keepingvwith their testimony. He called them adulterers and adulteresses, much as Jesus did in His letters to the churches in Rev. He was not making a doctrinal statement about initial salvation. The context is critical too understading what he was saying and why.

[Seth]

By grace you are saved thru faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest anyman should boast.

That's correct, so that when Paul says that Grace brings salvation, chastening us to abandon ungodliness, we can know that abandoning ungodliness is not a work that comes from us, but from God within us to save from sin.

Salvation comes by reconciliation at the cross.....as when the Israelitesbsaw the serpent on a stick and there wound was healed,Christ crucified.

According to the scripture, salvation comes by his LIFE reconciliation by his death.

The works come as a result of the healing, the reconciliation, the salvation.

We are created in Christ Jesus for good wirks, but it is out of the new creation, which must come first, Christ in u thbhope of glory, that they come forth from. It is God who is in u to will and to do of His good pleasure.

For me this is simple and it is clear from the whole new testament context in a topical exegesis. That is why we do not hav just James or just Paul. There is a cloud of witnesses.

That's right, and that is why the sentence "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" does not contradict anything Paul said, because Paul was talking about works of the Law, and James was not.

Also. James must b read as a letter. Not a verse. Their were peoplevseeking and hoarding wealth. Ignoring the needs of their brothers and sisters. He was rebuking these believers, much as Jesus did in Matt 25. He called them, as belivers to repent and to produce works in keepingvwith their testimony. He called them adulterers and adulteresses, much as Jesus did in His letters to the churches in Rev. He was not making a doctrinal statement about initial salvation. The context is critical too understading what he was saying and why.

I agree with all that context. And James was teaching those who were hoarding wealth and ignoring the needs of brothers and sisters not to falsely assume that their faith alone made them righteous.

[Seth]

in my opinion, if we try to separate belief from obedience we are getting away from the core understanding of how faith should be understood through the Hebrew and that will naturally set the scriptures in contradiction. James was telling them not to do that.

[ed]

Well said eaglesway and seth............enjoyed that.

:gimmefive:

[eaglesway]

Reconciliation is the same as salvation to me. It is the point of contact through which the connection is established and life enters in- which is salvation, in total. The works flow out of it. We are to exhort one another to love and good works. We are created for good works. We are not saved by good works, but if we are saved good works will come forth as the fruit of the Spirit begins to show, which should be right away- but some who are bound, as Lazarus was when Christ raised him, need the help of disciples to unwrap their grave clothes. These people, who in my opinion are saved but bound, may not appear to be saved, but are. I was one of these during my first couple of years as a Christian.

I was saved by a sovereign revelation of Christ crucified.

I had never been to church. I had never heard the name of Jesus as anything other than a curse word. I was a drug addict. I was heavily involved in metaphysics and sorcery and eastern philosophy. I had never read the Bible other than Revelations once on an acid trip.

I was saved the instant I was reconciled when I beheld Christ on the cross. The blood was applied. I wept. I knew NOTHING ELSE.

Only then did I begn to read the word, and the Holy Spirit began to teach me, and I began to get some strength and some victory.

But i did not work to get saved or reconciled and my salvation was secure from that very moment. I knew it intrinsicly.

I also think it is an error to say Paul was speaking to the Law. He was writing the Ephesians when he said,

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There is no discourse about legalism AT ALL in the epistle to the Ephesians, they were a prototypical Gentile church, mature, moving into the man-child(Eph 4)..

But....Paul makes it clear, as James was also saying imo, and as I have been saying - we are not saved by works, we are saved for good works. It is all there in one place in Eph 2:8-10, simple and clear.

[jabcat]

Awesome testimony John.

Faith that works.

[Seth]

Reconciliation is the same as salvation to me. It is the point of contact through which the connection is established and life enters in- which is salvation, in total. The works flow out of it. We are to exhort one another to love and good works. We are created for good works. We are not saved by good works

First, Paul says that we were reconciled by his death and much more so saved by his life. So, if they are the same thing, he should have said, we were reconciled and saved by his death.

Second, in James 2, he says

James 2
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save/heal/deliver him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Faith without works is dead, and if faith saves us, then it must be ALIVE not dead. James' is providing an example of being saved from selfishness by not being selfish, which is itself beyond simply having belief, but is deliverance through having a changed walk.

I was saved the instant I was reconciled when I beheld Christ on the cross. The blood was applied. I wept. I knew NOTHING ELSE.

But that's not what James is talking about in my opinion. After weeping and and beholding the cross, you turned around and hoarded money and were selfish, then that faith would be dead. After the revelation of the cross, the fruit needs to grow for salvation to be made complete, imo.

There is no discourse about legalism AT ALL in the epistle to the Ephesians, they were a prototypical Gentile church, mature, moving into the man-child(Eph 4)..

But....Paul makes it clear, as James was also saying imo, and as I have been saying - we are not saved by works, we are saved for good works. It is all there in one place in Eph 2:8-10, simple and clear.

I was talking about Romans 4, when Paul says he is talking about justification apart from works, he is talking about justified apart from works of the Law.

In Ephesians 2, it proves the point that James is making.

Ephesians 2
2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

So, when James says "A man is justified/righteous by works and not by faith alone" that is what he is talking about. The works are NOT our own, but they do cause us to be healed/delivered. Being joined together with Christ means that we "FORMERLY walked" in sin because we have been joined to Christ. Being joined to Christ causes the ACT of stopping the walk according to the course of this world. That is the finishing of our faith which is our salvation.

Titus 3
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

We can see here that it is not our righteous deeds that saved us, but HIS righteous deeds. We were saved by the washing and renewing of the Spirit, and that resulted in being ONCE disobedient, but no longer. The WASHING led to the OBEDIENCE and thus salvation/deliverance from sin.

That is why, I believe, James says "what good is it when a man has faith but no works, can that faith save him?"

No it can't. If it doesn't result in being FORMERLY DISOBEDIENT then salvation from disobedience has not been realized. That is why Rahab is the example James uses. He deliberately uses Abraham and Rahab. Abraham was born before the Law, and Rahab was a gentile. He chose two people OUTSIDE the LAW to make his point.

If Rahab would have believed but not acted on her belief, she would have not been saved from death.

[Dandelion]

Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.

He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teaching that salvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.

Yes, I would often try to explain this to people, myself. The important point is that our source of strength, to do the works, comes from God and not ourselves.

[jabcat]

Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.

He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teaching that salvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.

Yes, I would often try to explain this to people, myself. The important point is that our source of strength, to do the works, comes from God and not ourselves.

I agree.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that basics of the faith is to believe on the Lord Jesus (through the gift of faith in Him) and then follow Him in surrender and obedience as He provides the strength to do so? 

Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

[eaglesway]

Seth

The point you are missing is where the good works originate. They originate with reconciliation. Reconciliation allows His life to save, because it opens the door, connects the branch to the vine. Reconciliation saves as well as His life saves. This is the point of Colossians 1 15-20. All will be reconciled by the blood of His cross. Therefore all will be saved by His life. Two sides of one coin- not separate or opposing things.

If you chop up these elements of one salvation, one faith, into little bits, taking individual bverses apart from the rest, you get a skewed picture.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God....Rom 5:1

I am speaking of the introduction, as is Paul in Ephesians 2(by grace you are saved). James is speaking to disobedient believers who are standing upon the true message of grace to justify their disobedience, and there will always be those who do that.


This doesnt change the fact that salvation is by grace through faith not of works.

Anyone who is reconciled is saved. Reconciliation saves. His life continues to save, and that is Paul's point. He is not setting reconciliation and salvation apart from one another. They are elements of the same thing.

Their is an intial connection by grace through faith not of works. There is a continuing connection through which His life continues to save. If the connection continues we bear fruit- that is where the good works come from.

I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15

There it is in a nutshell really. Apart from me you can do nothing. Connected to me(abiding in the vine) you will bear fruit, and it will remain(gold silver precious stone).

That intial connection has nothing to do with works. It is by grace, through faith.

But it must be continued in.

And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Col 1

Even in your own example, Paul says, "How much more will you be saved through His life. He doesnt say "How much more will you be saved by good works. The life is the source of any works that abide eternally. The works are not the source of the life- they are the evidence of it, and that is James point.

[eaglesway]

Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.

He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teaching that salvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.

Yes, I would often try to explain this to people, myself. The important point is that our source of strength, to do the works, comes from God and not ourselves.

I agree.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that basics of the faith is to believe on the Lord Jesus (through the gift of faith in Him) and then follow Him in surrender and obedience as He provides the strength to do so? 

Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

Absolutely fair.

[Dandelion]

Amen!


  :thumbsup:

[Seth]

Seth

The point you are missing is where the good works originate. They originate with reconciliation. Reconciliation allows His life to save, because it opens the door, connects the branch to the vine. Reconciliation saves as well as His life saves. This is the point of Colossians 1 15-20. All will be reconciled by the blood of His cross. Therefore all will be saved by His life. Two sides of one coin- not separate or opposing things.

If you chop up these elements of one salvation, one faith, into little bits, taking individual bverses apart from the rest, you get a skewed picture.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God....Rom 5:1

I am speaking of the introduction, as is Paul in Ephesians 2(by grace you are saved). James is speaking to disobedient believers who are standing upon the true message of grace to justify their disobedience, and there will always be those who do that.


This doesnt change the fact that salvation is by grace through faith not of works.

Anyone who is reconciled is saved. Reconciliation saves. His life continues to save, and that is Paul's point. He is not setting reconciliation and salvation apart from one another. They are elements of the same thing.

Their is an intial connection by grace through faith not of works. There is a continuing connection through which His life continues to save. If the connection continues we bear fruit- that is where the good works come from.

I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15

There it is in a nutshell really. Apart from me you can do nothing. Connected to me(abiding in the vine) you will bear fruit, and it will remain(gold silver precious stone).

That intial connection has nothing to do with works. It is by grace, through faith.

But it must be continued in.

And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Col 1

Even in your own example, Paul says, "How much more will you be saved through His life. He doesnt say "How much more will you be saved by good works. The life is the source of any works that abide eternally. The works are not the source of the life- they are the evidence of it, and that is James point.

I am not missing where works originate, they originate from the Holy Spirit. As you have often quoted. It is God in you both to will and to WORK of his good pleasure.

James is not talking about the initial connection. He talked about that in James 1. For God made us born again by his own will (that's the Spirit) In James 2 he is talking about what happens AFTER you recieve the Spirit. As Paul said, if we have received the Spirit let us also walk by the Spirit.

If a man receives the Spirit but does NOT walk by the spirit he will not be saved from the things he repented of. He will have been forgiven of his past sins, yes, at initial belief, but will not be saved from those things going forward unless he walks by the Spirit.

That is why James says that if they continue to hoard money, faith without works is dead and they will not be righteous just because they believe in God. You can't be greedy and say that you are saved from greed just because you have head knowledge of God. At some point you will need to walk by the Spirit p, not just have the Spirit.

[Seth]

I doubt there is any fundamental disagreement in whether or not we are saved FOR good works. YES, we are saved FOR good works. HOWEVER, I'm sorry to insist on the phraseology that an Apostle uses, "a man is justified/righteous by works and not by faith alone." If those works DON'T FOLLOW, then salvation from former darkness will not be COMPLETED. As John said: do not be deceived, those who do righteousness are righteous even as God is righteous.

Choosing NOT to do something is as much a work as choosing to do something. Choosing NOT to continue being a slave to darkness is no doubt inspired by the Holy Spirit. But without that action, one will remain unsaved/unhealed/undelivered from darkness. That's common sense.

It's just as Hebrews 10 says what happens if we sin willfully after coming to full knowledge of the truth. I believe Peter is CLEAR in 2 Peter 2 that if we return to "our vomit" we become worse off then when we started. THAT is what I believe James 2 is talking about, not initial salvation.

Verbs mean work. If we sin and go to God to confess, that is a verb. Confess is a verb. Go is a verb. It's what you do as a response to belief. If you sin and DON'T do those things...God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud.

I'd say a difference between us is that I will actually use the phraseology Apostle James uses, because I feel if it's good enough for an Apostle it's good enough for me. Nobody on this conversation will say "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Why? Who knows. You can't pretend James didn't say it, even if you have a difference of a opinion as to what he meant.

So the question is "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"

Either that sentence is true or it is false. Or, you believe as the Concordant theology teaches, that's it's true but just meant for someone else.

[Seth]

The thing I find especially ironic is that the book of James doesnt' even contain the most strongly worded warnings about this stuff. Apostle Paul's do.

[sheila]

carm has a good article on this.  How it may appear it contradicts but does not.  The gist of the article

is that there is a real danger that our faith may become dead.  Jesus speaks to the  churches in Rev ch 2/3

  saying such things as   'I know your deeds"  'your works are not fully accomplished" etc  a name you are

alive, but you are dead.  You could say He is pruning us to produce more fruit as the vinedresser....

    He wants all the fruit of His spirit manifested in us. His prunings/spur us on to branch out and continue

to bear fruit.  the well/done and justification I see as the white stone/crown/sit with me/ all the things

  that signify His contentment/pleasure and a 'well done"

   I have no desire to debate/argue over this. I just thought it might help reconcile Romans and James

   if it doesnt suit you..no problem

[jabcat]

carm has a good article on this.  How it may appear it contradicts but does not.  The gist of the article

is that there is a real danger that our faith may become dead.  Jesus speaks to the  churches in Rev ch 2/3

  saying such things as   'I know your deeds"  'your works are not fully accomplished" etc  a name you are

alive, but you are dead.  You could say He is pruning us to produce more fruit as the vinedresser....

    He wants all the fruit of His spirit manifested in us. His prunings/spur us on to branch out and continue

to bear fruit.  the well/done and justification I see as the white stone/crown/sit with me/ all the things

  that signify His contentment/pleasure and a 'well done"

   I have no desire to debate/argue over this. I just thought it might help reconcile Romans and James

   if it doesnt suit you..no problem

:thumbsup:

like a dormant tree in winter...you have to break a branch or cut it back to see the green.  the inside is alive because of what it is.  but the outside doesn't appear to be "doing anything".

[Seth]

carm has a good article on this.  How it may appear it contradicts but does not.  The gist of the article

is that there is a real danger that our faith may become dead.  Jesus speaks to the  churches in Rev ch 2/3

  saying such things as   'I know your deeds"  'your works are not fully accomplished" etc  a name you are

alive, but you are dead.  You could say He is pruning us to produce more fruit as the vinedresser....

    He wants all the fruit of His spirit manifested in us. His prunings/spur us on to branch out and continue

to bear fruit.  the well/done and justification I see as the white stone/crown/sit with me/ all the things

  that signify His contentment/pleasure and a 'well done"

   I have no desire to debate/argue over this. I just thought it might help reconcile Romans and James

   if it doesnt suit you..no problem

"He wants all the fruits manifested in us"

I agree, and my difference with Carm and the whole Calvinistic theology is anything to do with salvation from Hell.

I think if Matt Slick could understand that James was talking about salvation from GREED, and Paul was talking about justification apart from the LAW (which sin uses to actually cause more coveting - Romans 7), I think the whole thing falls into place, at least for me.

We are not saved from ungodliness by the LAW, but by grace which chastens us to abandon ungodliness (which is a work) and thus we are saved/healed/delivered. Not by faith alone. Faith is the kickstarter. It's Grace that saves/delivers us from being in servitude to greed.

But that will not happen until the act of abandoning greed follows faith.