Tentmaker Forum

Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation => Discussions on Universal Salvation => Topic started by: jabcat on May 23, 2009, 12:45:46 AM

Title: Jesus Savior, Jesus Healer - 2 Parts
Post by: jabcat on May 23, 2009, 12:45:46 AM
Part I
I had an interesting thought today.  If Jesus is not the savior of the whole world, then it's not only as the Calvinists say (that God chooses who He'll save and who He won't);  it goes further than that.  God hides the truth from many, and in the process more actively ensures they go to eternal torment/separation.  Reference the following verse.

Mat. 13:11,12   And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"  Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.              
 If only a few ever get saved, and hell/eternal torment is the destiny of everyone else, then IMO, God just flat out did it Himself.  And I don't believe that's the heart of the Father, or the message of His Word.      
Jesus, Savior of the world.


Part II
This won't become a "free will/limited will" argument.   It is though, IMO, a hard-to-understand doctrinal issue.  I'm one that believes God veils and reveals as HE sees fit, as suits HIS purpose, His Plan For The Ages.  I believe only God gives faith.  We don't conjure it up, create it internally somehow...we're each given a measure, then we either use it or not.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

However, the following stumps me a bit. 
Mark 6
4 And Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.  5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.  6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief

If God gives faith, as Eph 2:8 indicates above, then why would Jesus be amazed at lack of faith?  Was it without His knowledge or control?  Was He surprised?  And was/is He really limited by mere mortals' lack of faith?  There's probably a good explanation as to how this fits with other scripture, or maybe even some translational/interpretational issues, but right now I'm not getting it. 


Title: Re: Jesus Savior, Jesus Healer - 2 Parts
Post by: WhiteWings on May 23, 2009, 01:49:27 AM
Indeed a bit strange.
OTOH God asks many questions. And He (also) knew the answers.
I think it's important how exactly Jesus 'marveled'.
Was it because He really didn't understand why they didn't believe?
Elect or no elect Father, Son and HS always know what's going on.
So I think it was more like an act with some teaching purpose.
I think the marveling was just holding a mirror to make the people think why a prophet always gas to come from far to be real and repected
Title: Re: Jesus Savior, Jesus Healer - 2 Parts
Post by: Beloved Servant on May 23, 2009, 01:55:54 AM
Reply to Part II:

Perhaps;

While Jesus was walking out the Plan for the redemption of all mankind — He was impoverished — for a while.