Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected

[violettera]

hello

Jesus who has never sinned died on the cross and was resurrected.
He died as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity.
So, I understand if Jesus didn't died as a sacrifice for our sins , we woudn't be forgiven and saved. But that does not make much sense to me.  :dontknow: Why  he chose the cross to save us ?
if anyone could enlighten me

[GodIsLove]

You will get so many answers or this!

I have come to believe something like this:

Richard Rohr:

Jesus was killed on the collision of cross-purposes, conflicting interests, and half-truths. The cross was the price Jesus paid for living in a "mixed" world that was both human and divine, simultaneously broken and utterly whole. He hung between a good thief and a bad thief, between heaven and earth, inside of both humanity and divinity, a male body with a feminine soul, utterly whole and yet utterly disfigured—all the primary opposites.

Jesus "recapitulated all things in himself, everything in heaven and everything on earth" (Ephesians 1:10). This one line is the summary of Franciscan Christology and our notion of the Cosmic Christ, as my systematics professor told me. Jesus agreed to carry the mystery of suffering and not to demand perfection of creation. He taught, in effect, that it is the only way to be saved. We are indeed saved by the cross—more than we realize.

Franciscans never believed that "blood atonement" was required for God to love us. We believed that Christ was Plan A from the very beginning (Colossians 1:15-20, Ephesians 1:3-14, John 1:1-18). Christ wasn't a Plan B after the first humans sinned, which is the way most people seem to understand the significance of the death and resurrection of Jesus. The Great Mystery of Incarnation could not be a mere mop-up exercise, a problem-solving technique, or dependent on human beings messing up.  The Incarnation was not motivated by a problem but by love.

The Franciscan view grounds Christianity in love and freedom from the very beginning. It creates a coherent and positive spirituality, which draws us toward lives of inner depth, prayer, reconciliation, healing, and universal at-one-ment, instead of any notion of sacrifice, which implies God needs to be bought off. Nothing changed on Calvary, but everything was revealed as God's suffering love—so that we could change!

Ok that was all a quote from Richard Rohr, back to my own words:

But others will see something else and I think we could talk and explore and wonder and pray about it for our lifetimes and never fully understand it. But some day we will.

One thing I believe is that Jesus died to SHOW God's nature, and God's nature is love, forgiveness and nonviolence in the face of evil, accusations, and hate (those that crucified Jesus were met with forgiveness and no resistance). It was to change our minds about God, not to change God's mind about us.

Also it shows the pattern of how we are supposed to be, Jesus's whole life was to show us a new way to live, and when we all live by his example God will be all in all.

[marie glen]

Hi, V! I think of it as God being the breath and spark if life itself.. God being life, and He "is perfect" as the scripture says, then I figure when He created thinking beings, that it changed things! A whole new world (or tree!) of possibilities came about.. because, it seems to me, that creatures that can think and reason, sooner or later, are able to make choices, and sooner or later, someone is bound to think about whether we absolutely must do all things as God chooses.

But if we differ in anything, in thought, word, or action, that differs from what God chooses, we become imperfect, the opposite of God/life/perfection.

But what was God's other option? No thinking creatures? Ever?

(God of course is the one who chooses when one believes and is saved.)

So as the scripture says Jesus was "crucified at the foundation/beginning of the world" which to me seems to mean the rescue was built into the creation at the very beginning..

And "His word will not return to Him empty but will accomplish ALL that He has sent it forth to accomplish".. "Jesus, savior of the world" who "will draw all to Himself".
    :girlheart: God bless!

[marie glen]

Amen GiL!  :thumbsup: I totally agree. :gsmile:

[jabcat]

violettera, I'm afraid this is a difficult issue for our limited minds to truly and fully grasp.  It's one of those where I believe we get in trouble "philophisizing" and over-thinking.  In this case, I personally believe the simplest approach is the best.

Believe what the scriptures plainly say.
Trust God to know what He's doing.
Submit to His will.

I believe the scriptures clearly teach blood atonement.  Not that God "had to have it to love us" - He already did, does love us.  However, He had a plan from the beginning that included the sacrifice of His Son, the Lamb slain from beginning as the "price paid" in full - finished.  Paul calls us "blood bought".

I don't understand that, so I personally have to trust God knows what He's doing.

So, that means my will needs to fall in line with His, whether I understand or even like it or not.

So I hope you, I, etc. can trust Him and know He's working all things according to His will and to our good.  Blessings.

[MusicLover123]

violettera, I'm afraid this is a difficult issue for our limited minds to truly and fully grasp.  It's one of those where I believe we get in trouble "philophisizing" and over-thinking.  In this case, I personally believe the simplest approach is the best.

Believe what the scriptures plainly say.
Trust God to know what He's doing.
Submit to His will.

I believe the scriptures clearly teach blood atonement.  Not that God "had to have it love us" - He already did, does love us.  However, He had a plan from the beginning that included the sacrifice of His Son, the Lamb slain from beginning as the "price paid" in full - finished.  Paul calls us "blood bought".

I don't understand that, so I personally have to trust God knows what He's doing.

So, that means my will needs to fall in line with His, whether I understand or even like it or not.

So I hope you, I, etc. can trust Him and know He's working all things according to His will and to our good.  Blessings.

Amen  :thumbsup:

Hebrews 9
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

It is a mystery to me exactly why God made it this way, but also remember how there is life(literally) in the blood.

[jabcat]

Amen  :thumbsup:

Hebrews 9
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

It is a mystery to me exactly why God made it this way, but also remember how there is life(literally) in the blood.

..and Amen  :thumbsup:

[guest6088]

Look what humans do to loving people... They kill them, make false allegations about them...

I think it was just inevitable that...

John 1:11-13
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[Cardinal]

You will get so many answers or this!

I have come to believe something like this:

Richard Rohr:

Jesus was killed on the collision of cross-purposes, conflicting interests, and half-truths. The cross was the price Jesus paid for living in a "mixed" world that was both human and divine, simultaneously broken and utterly whole. He hung between a good thief and a bad thief, between heaven and earth, inside of both humanity and divinity, a male body with a feminine soul, utterly whole and yet utterly disfigured—all the primary opposites.

Jesus "recapitulated all things in himself, everything in heaven and everything on earth" (Ephesians 1:10). This one line is the summary of Franciscan Christology and our notion of the Cosmic Christ, as my systematics professor told me. Jesus agreed to carry the mystery of suffering and not to demand perfection of creation. He taught, in effect, that it is the only way to be saved. We are indeed saved by the cross—more than we realize.

Franciscans never believed that "blood atonement" was required for God to love us. We believed that Christ was Plan A from the very beginning (Colossians 1:15-20, Ephesians 1:3-14, John 1:1-18). Christ wasn't a Plan B after the first humans sinned, which is the way most people seem to understand the significance of the death and resurrection of Jesus. The Great Mystery of Incarnation could not be a mere mop-up exercise, a problem-solving technique, or dependent on human beings messing up.  The Incarnation was not motivated by a problem but by love.

The Franciscan view grounds Christianity in love and freedom from the very beginning. It creates a coherent and positive spirituality, which draws us toward lives of inner depth, prayer, reconciliation, healing, and universal at-one-ment, instead of any notion of sacrifice, which implies God needs to be bought off. Nothing changed on Calvary, but everything was revealed as God's suffering love—so that we could change!

Ok that was all a quote from Richard Rohr, back to my own words:

But others will see something else and I think we could talk and explore and wonder and pray about it for our lifetimes and never fully understand it. But some day we will.

One thing I believe is that Jesus died to SHOW God's nature, and God's nature is love, forgiveness and nonviolence in the face of evil, accusations, and hate (those that crucified Jesus were met with forgiveness and no resistance). It was to change our minds about God, not to change God's mind about us.

Also it shows the pattern of how we are supposed to be, Jesus's whole life was to show us a new way to live, and when we all live by his example God will be all in all.

:cloud9: Nice to meet you. I'm sorry but I can't agree with anything a Catholic "mystic" like Richard Rohr has to say on a subject he obviously knows little about, and even less knows The Author, as he has said, "God is just another name for everything, don't say you love God if you don't love everything."  A "mystic" that revels in their own thoughts is not a mystic, but rather a philosopher of vain (devoid of His Spirit) imaginings. We are to meditate on His Word, and let HIS Spirit teach us. No where in His Word are we told we have to love everything, in fact, just the opposite, we are told we will even judge angels, and are to judge righteous judgment, which is where His Spirit and His Word are in agreement.

The "love everything" mantra is well represented in New Age philosophies and humanistic thought because they spring from the same root of rebellion, ie. "hath God really said?" mindset, where there is no dividing line, all is reconciled by mere mental acceptance from eating of the tree of GOOD and evil, which always leads to proclaiming evil good and good, evil, and especially likes to label any division at all as being "discriminatory" and therefore not "God like" because "He loves everyone", forgetting that He is the biggest discriminator of all between the holy and the profane, wheat and the tares, sheep and the goats. His love for us is not in question, but neither should His ultimate right as Creator of the pot, to call it broken and provide the "fix" on HIS terms, not ours, even a very bloody, very violent "fix" to show the wages of sin and His unwillingness to leave us in that state of being at all costs. THAT, is the depth of His love, not pandering to the false piety and feigned humility of the flesh that doesn't want to die to to self to receive His life and perfection (completion, meaning He truly becomes our Head).

He absolutely required a blood sacrifice, for the simple reasons that,1) the life is in the blood, and 2) HIS love is defined as laying down that life for his friends (Abraham, the father of our faith, was God's friend for this reason). Anything less than this sacrifice is incomplete, imperfect, and misses the mark HE established. He was NOT "killed" for the any of the reasons listed above by Rohr, He in fact testified that NO MAN took His life, He laid it down willingly. The reason errors like these gain ground is because it denigrates His sacrifice into something out of His control, but rather controlled by the whims of men and random circumstances. In short, it negates the plan of the Father at the very root, and makes the Son's sacrifice not a sacrifice at all, thereby breaking both of the 2 the 10 hang on, making Him a lawless one.  It presents a false Christ. Blessings to all.....

[GodIsLove]

In my post it said the crucifiction was plan A from the beginning. Meaning yes he laid down his life and chose to do so before the foundation of the world.

So yes he sacrificed his life for us as a choice. But the WAY he died was by the hands of those who hated him and he did not resist. This is important IMO.

I think we don't actually disagree, maybe my post didn't share all I believe because it would just be too long and tedious to type out. I just wanted to share some ideas, but they don't encompass the full picture as I said in my post.

When we look to universal salvation and the history behind it, we can see how in the early church there was a diversity of opinion, with some churches believing in universal salvation, some in ET and some in annihilation. This is also true of when early Christians tried to make sense of the crucifixion. There were diverse opinions, all biblically based, and the predominant view became a certain view (angry god needing blood sacrifice), just as the predominant view of salvation became most suffer ET and a few are saved.

This early diversity of opinion shows that, to me, it's an issue we can't fully grasp, just as we who believe in universal salvation can't truly grasp the details, how it will be accomplished, we just know it will based on biblical evidence and God revealing it to us in his timing.

We know Jesus died for us, he laid down his life, and it was something that needed to happen. We don't know or can't fully comprehend the details of how and why.

As I also said in my original post, Jesus shows us the pattern. This means we do need to die to self like he did, which you mentioned in your post as well. Again we are in agreement.

Not sure if any of this is conveyed properly. I think not only is it hard to type and communicate to one another accurately, the subject matters we are discussing are not really easy to convey with words anyway.

I often feel I don't fit here, but I just keep coming back! :smile:

[guest6088]

You know what?  :Chinscratch:

...It looks as though we are all contradicting but we are not...I can see that.  :dunno2:

It's like... We are one with God (we all have God's spirit in us) yet we are seperate....a contradiction yet...Not a contradiction, for God breathed His Spirit into mankind (Adam).  The human will IS God's will (for we all have God's spirit inside us) but many just don't know it yet and need 'woken up' (be ye reconciled to God) (God who was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself).

So with what Cardinal and GodIsLove and myself and the others is saying here I see that we are actually in agreement but just coming at it from a different angle but which requires spiritual sight to see...  :iagree:

Christ 'gave up his life' we are told and yet at the same time we are told he was murdered seems like a contradiction but it's not and I'll tell you why it's not.... 

God is EVERYTHING
One has to grasp that to understand.
Basically we are all part of God which comes together as 'one' (reconciliation of the entire CREATION) (Apocatastasis).

[violettera]

I needed to hear those words. Thank you so much. :friendstu:
Faith comes from what we hear.

Raouda.

[sheila]

 We have no King but Caesar...John 11;50.the High Preist prophesied..'it is better that one man die than the whole nation perish"

Judges9;14 Finally all the trees said unto the thornbush,come and be our King.Matt27;29and they twisted togather a crown of thorns

and set it on his head......and mocked him.


Matt 21;33-44

Mtt22;44  The Lord said to my Lord......sit at my right hand..until I put your enemies under your feet.

Acts7;55,56Romans8;34,Epheians1;20,Col3;1andRev 3;21..... :2c:

[rosered]

   Listening to everyone is helpful  :HeartThrob:
and can agree  with everyone  in some degree .
  I am thankful   to God for this place  , to be able to freely discuss the things of God , and the sharing  what is in our hearts .

For me the cross of Jesus Christ is the open show    to the world and written that everyone can see what has been going on from the foundation of the world .

I did not know that  , but many over time have helped me to see that  by  bothering  to  share   their thoughts   and the Holy Spirit  quicking  it in my heart .

faith come by hearing what the Spirit is saying  and speaks though all of us  whom share and hear .

Jesus warns us to be careful how we hear , because even what we think we have can be taken away  , or hearing  correctly He Alone promises to  add  more      within us .

   Jesus told us HE was the great I AM , before  Abraham was I am  ,   the'' all existing One ''     or the I am that Iam

  With  Moses   in  the encounter of the burning bush (Exodus 3:14    all of creation  and HE is GOD and all in all  already .

The consuming fire engulfs the bush, but the bush is not consumed. ... to Moses ,  God helped him to see that there will be fires and judgments but the nation will not be consumed  in this  understanding .   

But  most cannot see that  fully  yet,    God is a consuming fire  ,a jealous God   and will not give His glory to another  , Jesus Christ  , given this name above all names  under heaven to which we must be  saved .
  Shared in this  glory 
  By being the Son of mankind and the Son of God ,    He is  the gap or the great gulf fixed     to be lifted up  and   to draw all men/mankind  unto the Father .  the way and escape    made openly  known , revealed    that was a hidden mystery of the ages .
  Till the  fullness of time had come to be made known .

as a little baby  , born of woman under the law , Mary  was a virgin and conceived of the Holy Spirit , the Holy Spirit blows   where it wants and we hear the sound of it , so are those  ,just as we all have also  been born of it .

Being the prime example  of us being  born  as human/weak  and  of God/strong  and  being both   evil and of good



   The thing  is to me  at this time ,  is   the cross of Jesus Christ is  about  dying to the world  or overcoming the world by the power of God /Father   in everything  that is Holy and good and pure  and lovely  , by forgiving    sinners , because the LOVE OF GOD is greater than sin or death .

  GOD being all in all   is about  GOD BEING FIRST  PLACE  in our hearts ,   in our lives and everything else is added unto us  .
So to  me it is  personal    and life changing and     GOD is our comfort and our greatest  fear  , He is our dread  , He is our provider and  our  power to overcome   evil with good ...  our all in all  ,  Life and death are ours   all things are ours and we are Christ and Christ is Gods . . not some other Jesus  , but our own personal  salvation  ,   our salvation is nearer than we first believed in Him,     making all things new  and Holy before the Father .



Isaiah  8 A Call to Fear God
...12"Do not call conspiracy everything these people regard as conspiracy.

Do not fear what they fear; do not live in dread.

3The LORD of Hosts is the One to regard as holy. Only He should be feared; only He should be dreaded,

14and He will be a sanctuary. But to both houses of Israel He will be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, a trap and a snare to the dwellers of Jerusalem."...

Exodus 20:20
"Do not be afraid," Moses replied. "For God has come to test you, so that the fear of Him may be before you, to keep you from sinning."

Numbers 20:12
But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust Me to show My holiness in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this assembly into the land I have given them."
   
  the law was working death  though the tree of knowledge of   good and evil   , to me I do see this TREE /CROSS  JESUS  HUNG ON   IS THIS TREE ...

to fulfill all things   and raise everything from death to life again , just as  Jesus showed us though example that the power of God to raise the dead  to Life again would come though Him ...

HE IS THE TREE OF LIFE and many things to numerable to mention , being the WORD OF GOD  sent out  , that will never return to  Him void .
I would say look into   the , ''I AM that Iam ''   , I believe it is the name    that   GOD is   all in all ..  and will change your life forever .
Rev 3    loving without being  a respecter of persons   . God made all for His glory   , not to judge Gods law   , but do it . so we take up our cross and follow Jesus  where ever He goes .... 

To the Church in Philadelphia, brotherly love  ..

...11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.


12The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it.


Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God),


and My new name.


13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches....

  :HeartThrob: