I've always wondered why Jesus cursed the fig tree for having no figs/fruit, when it was not yet the season for figs!
Mark 11:13-14,20 (NKJV)
13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 In response Jesus said to it, "Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.. 20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots."
But today reading Luke 13:6-9 -
Parable of the Barren Fig Tree:
6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' 8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"
And putting the two fig tree accounts together, made me think of a "stay of execution" for the fig tree..
..which applied (in my mind) to the non-elect (not chosen in this lifetime) as another chance to attain repentance.. which I believe will be during the long day of review and judgment which follows the 2nd resurrection [Rev 20:13]
Otherwise.. why a second resurrection??
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, and anyone not found written in the Book of Life" (not believing! after experiencing being resurrected, etc) "was cast into the lake of fire." [Rev 20:14,15]
Hi MaryGlenn
What was the first death? Was it not that of the Spirit of God within Adam, and all of us.
Rom_14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Are we not the body of Christ and raised with him, for those who believe? This is the first resurrection, of which the second death has no power.
Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
What is the second resurrection. If the first resurrection is Christ, and the body of Christ, then the second resurrection would have to be those not of Christ's body, the dead in Christ.
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This verse is tricky. But if you look a few verses ahead of that, you see that those who "sleep" in Christ return to meet those "alive and remaining". Th 4:16 is not the first resurrection, but actually the second!
I do agree that here is where the "dead in Christ" will confess, not by believing, but by seeing. They will confess at that time that Jesus is Lord and will be saved.
For the most part, I think that Israel stays in denial of Christ until the very last moment. But, as I think about that, it just may be saying that our flesh will fight to the end not to submit to the Lord!
Love talkin' about Jesus!
Quote from: saintwalee on July 12, 2014, 03:26:51 AM
Love talkin' about Jesus!
Me too!! :smile:
I can see what you're saying and think it is very possible, but thus far, I believe the second resurrection is in Revelation 20, a thousand years after the first one at Jesus' return and the beginning of His long second advent, and these verses are why; but also, it's my belief the 2nd resurrection is what Jesus was referring to when He told the pharisees, "unless you repent you will die in your sins" implying, it seems to me, a rising still in their sins.. an inferior, for a time, resurrection.. This only for the benefit of the drama, God's truth proving drama which I believe is angel and human history.. the acting out and experiencing of imperfection which is the opposite of God/Life/Perfection..
Revelation 20 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years..
3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.
6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,
...13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
- during an extremely long day of the review and judgment of all things, and then -
14 the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;
...and and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life" (any one found not believing) by then, after experiencing being resurrected, etc.. "he was cast to the lake of the fire."
It's my belief there is only one difference between the elect and the non-elect.. which is the when of their salvation/repentance. I do not believe any more stringent dealings are required for the non elect of this lifetime, to bring them to repentance, than is required to save the elect.. It is all God's choosing and election, and none of ours whether we 'attain' to repentance in this lifetime or during the long day of judgment/review.. And no one or nothing can thwart His will in any way.. for He is (surely!) Perfect and all Powerful..
:smile: the Lord bless!
P.S. - theres verses in 1 corinthians 15...
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Okay, I find this happening quite often. I profess something, and just after that I see a little more clearly. I really understand what Paul says about seeing through a glass darkly!
I just mentioned that the dead in Christ rising first is actually the second. But I believe the Spirit of Truth let me see a bit more here.
In taking a closer look at this: Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. it would seem that the first and second resurrection are related.
Rom_14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead (our flesh) and living (Christ in us).
Hmm, "Christ both died, and rose, and revived" That is not two things, but three! So what is being said here? Is it talking about two Christs? Could be. For that Christ which was of Jesus is the same Spirit of Christ who revives our spirit, our Christ. The first man is of the earth, of the flesh, the second man Adam is a life giving spirit! Man is being restored into his original creation, body, soul and spirit.
So, both our spirit and our flesh are resurrected, we are again a "living soul".
Taking another look at Thesselonians:
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is starting to make more sense. When we are dead to Christ, he first revives our spirit, which in turn revives our mortal body. But until our mortal body hears the trump (Lazarus, Arise), it is asleep. When the flesh awakes, we join together with those who already have believed and have been resurrected, not resurrected as physically being raised from being dead, but rather being resurrected back to life, back into the presence of God (Jesus was standing right there when Lazarus arose).
We are caught up in the cloud together with them that have beforehand believed.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
I see that there have been some posts while I was writing as well.
Quote from: marie glen on July 12, 2014, 02:04:51 AM
I've always wondered why Jesus cursed the fig tree for having no figs/fruit, when it was not yet the season for figs!
Mark 11:13-14,20 (NKJV)
13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 In response Jesus said to it, "Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.. 20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots."
But today reading Luke 13:6-9 -
Parable of the Barren Fig Tree:
6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' 8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"
And putting the two fig tree accounts together, made me think of a "stay of execution" for the fig tree..
..which applied (in my mind) to the non-elect (not chosen in this lifetime) as another chance to attain repentance.. which I believe will be during the long day of review and judgment which follows the 2nd resurrection [Rev 20:13]
Otherwise.. why a second resurrection??
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, and anyone not found written in the Book of Life" (not believing! after experiencing being resurrected, etc) "was cast into the lake of fire." [Rev 20:14,15]
Hi Marie, there is a smaller fruit which comes on the Fig tree prior to the season for the tree to bear its regular fruit. I believe it is called "Panag." Jesus came to the tree expecting at the very least some panag fruit on the tree.
As to a resurrection from the lake of fire .. . the second death: In Revelation Christ is still reigning as are kings and sovereignties, authorities and power are stiill in operation as is death.
Paul saw way beyond Revelation for in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 he saw Christ quit reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power done away and death abolished. The only death left is the second death. All those people will then be resurrected out of that death, be subjected to Christ and God All in all.
If Jesus destroys death, how is it that the second death still remains? That would mean that the last enemy to be destroyed hasn't been destroyed at all.
Quote from: Seth on July 19, 2014, 01:38:15 AM
If Jesus destroys death, how is it that the second death still remains? That would mean that the last enemy to be destroyed hasn't been destroyed at all.
The death Yeshua destroys is not the second death. And also, 'destroy' is not an accurate term to describe what happens to death. The second death is not an enemy, but is the means by which death and Sheol are done away with.
It must be a difference if interpretation, but to me, death is that which must be overcome and destroyed. I interpret the second death as sin and destruction. When Jesus destroys death, he overrules and obliterates it leaving only life.
When he destroys death, there's no more death.
It is definitely a difference in interpretation, as far as what death is, what the second death is, and what it means to be destroyed.
According to Revelation, LIFE is found within New Jerusalem, the waters and the tree. Outside is the second death. The second death is not what destroys death. In order to find life, they must heed the words of the Bride and the Spirt. "Come and drink of the water of life freely." The water of life and the second death are two different things. We must pass FROM death TO life.
If the second death takes care of it, then the Spirit and the Bride should be saying: "Stay put. No need to drink the water. The second death will take care of everything for you."
Thanks for sharing your understanding. I know it sounds cut and dry to you, but there are others like myself who happen to see it very differently, at least in how this all plays out. I do not know if you wish to understand where I am coming from, as I usually prefer waiting for someone to ask me, otherwise I assume they just want to share their understanding.
It didn't used to be cut and dry to me, because I didn't used to see it that way either. If it were cut and dry, I wouldn't have changed my opinion. I am always open to other's opinions, as in a forum I always assume that if someone wants to share, they'll do it. I've always approach forums that way. Anyhow, if you want to know why I changed my opinion about the LOF (second death), I wrote about it here: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html
Thank you for sharing your link. I had read it before along with your other articles. It is true that in general, people will share when they want to. I just do not know you well enough to know if you only wish to share what you see, or if you are truly interested in understanding what others see. I say this because I know of others who have a pattern of constantly being in disagreement with others, only sharing what they see, and never asking anyone they disagree with any questions so as to try and understand their point of view. I do see you ask questions of others at times, but when I have not seen it done with me, I just figured you were not interested in what I have come to understand. These types of people that I am referring to (not saying you) usually end up either eventually leaving a message board, or causing others to leave because of them.
This is why I usually prefer seeing if someone is truly interested in something I share that they may disagree with, that they ask me further questions about it to try and understand. This way the arguing hopefully is kept to a minimum. I will go ahead and seek to understand what you are seeing concerning the lake of fire (the second death), as it is described in Revelation 20, by asking this:
In your article you shared with me, I do not see any reference to Daniel 7. Do you see any relationship between Daniel 7 and Revelation 20? I happen to see them as thematically connected, and together presenting a more complete picture of what is going on in those visions.
Yes, I actually do see a connection between them, in particular mention of fire, the image of fire. What I see in the Bible is that there are negative and positive meanings of images. God tells Jeremiah that "wickedness is like a fire." But we also know that "God is a consuming fire." Therefore, I am left to understand that not all fire speaks to the same thing. So, I am then left to wonder, of the two, which does the "second death" (the LOF) speak to. Is it "wickedness is like a fire" or is it "God is a consuming fire?"
I see in Daniel a fire in connection to the throne. But I distinguish that fire from that in Revelation described as "the second death." The fire which comes out of the throne, I see in connection to tongues of fire which settled upon the elect on Pentacost. I believe God always works through Christ, and Christ always through the elect, and unto the world. So there is a fire on Zion, inasmuch as there is one in the Valley below.
So, if I study Revelation, I find that LIFE has its home within New Jerusalem in the waters and the tree of life (symbols of Christ and the Spirit), and DEATH is outside. Nothing unclean may enter the City, and yet the Spirit and the Bride say "Come, drink the water of life freely." (that's the gospel. That is the fire which consumes, even as much as wickedness is a fire that consumes).
Jesus warned about a fire which is unquenchable, which reminds me of how God says that "they will devour eachother and not be satisfied" with respect to how "wickedness burns like a fire." That sounds unquenchable, so it seems to me that the way for anyone to recieve life is to, repent (for nothing unclean may enter the city), LEAVE the ways of death and enter life through the open gates and drink from the water of life within.
Quote from: Seth on July 19, 2014, 05:25:06 AM
Yes, I actually do see a connection between them, in particular mention of fire, the image of fire. What I see in the Bible is that there are negative and positive meanings of images.
I agree. There are even positive and negative connotations to the same image, depending on one's experience of it. The fire which did not harm the 3 Hebrews, nor have power over them, as they walked around in it, is quite a different experience from those who end up being thrown into it, where the second death does harm, and have power over, such ones...which happens to be another thematic connection.
QuoteGod tells Jeremiah that "wickedness is like a fire." But we also know that "God is a consuming fire." Therefore, I am left to understand that not all fire speaks to the same thing. So, I am then left to wonder, of the two, which does the "second death" (the LOF) speak to. Is it "wickedness is like a fire" or is it "God is a consuming fire?"
This is why I asked for a consideration of the vision in Daniel 7 and Revelation 20, where we see various connections, not just a throne and fire.
QuoteThe fire which comes out of the throne, I see in connection to tongues of fire which settled upon the elect on Pentacost.
I believe this as well.
What's also noteworthy to me is 2 Peter 2 and it's connection to Romans 1. Peter makes a correlation between the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah, from Heaven, and how that the backsliders will perish in their own corruption. Paul mentions the wrath from heaven in connection to God turning over people to their own desires.
So this is a fire from heaven, a fire from God, which brings recompense for sin, but they receive it in themselves. They were perished in fire from God, in their own corruption.
So concerning the 3 Hebrews, I don't believe they were caught up in THAT fire from heaven, which I see as death, the second death, just as I don't believe that the members of New Jerusalem are in that fire Johns vision either. The citizens of New Jerusalem are separated from that kind of fire from God, and are reserved for a different kind if fire, which is the word of God that they preach.
Do you see any connection between Revelation 14, 21 and Isaiah 9?
Quote from: Seth on July 19, 2014, 08:33:13 AMSo concerning the 3 Hebrews, I don't believe they were caught up in THAT fire from heaven
I do not as well. I believe it was a literal fire, although used by God to teach by thematic connection what the second death is.
QuoteI don't believe that the members of New Jerusalem are in that fire Johns vision either. The citizens of New Jerusalem are separated from that kind of fire from God, and are reserved for a different kind if fire, which is the word of God that they preach.
Although we see things differently (my understanding would be very close to the church of the East, similar to the Eastern orthodox, although I do not belong to either), I can picture why you would not see the lake of fire as the same as the water of life. It all depends on other passages we look at and how we connect them.
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 19, 2014, 08:56:22 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 19, 2014, 08:33:13 AMSo concerning the 3 Hebrews, I don't believe they were caught up in THAT fire from heaven
I do not as well. I believe it was a literal fire, although used by God to teach by thematic connection what the second death is.
Maybe not. Maybe the thematic connection Is God is a consuming fire, rather than wickedness being like fire, and that the Lake of Fire is connected to the fire of Isaiah 9
Quote
Although we see things differently (my understanding would be very close to the church of the East, similar to the Eastern orthodox, although I do not belong to either), I can picture why you would not see the lake of fire as the same as the water of life. It all depends on other passages we look at and how we connect them.
I agree. It depends along on the connections we see.
Quote from: Seth on July 19, 2014, 08:46:50 AM
Do you see any connection between Revelation 14, 21 and Isaiah 9?
There are some connections I can see, yes.
The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light. Those who lived in the land of the shadow of death, on them the light has shined.
(Isa 9:2)
The nations will walk in its light. The kings of the earth bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
(Rev 21:24)
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:10, 11)
For wickedness burns like a fire. It devours the briers and thorns; yes, it kindles in the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke. Through the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, the land is burnt up; and the people are the fuel for the fire. No one spares his brother.
(Isa 9:18, 19)
I also see Isaiah 5 connecting to this, along the lines you are sharing:
Therefore as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as the dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust; because they have rejected the law of Yahweh of Armies, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Therefore Yahweh's anger burns against his people, and he has stretched out his hand against them, and has struck them. The mountains tremble, and their dead bodies are as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this, his anger is not turned away, but his hand is still stretched out.
(Isa 5:24-25)
And when I speak of connections, I am specifically speaking of words specific to a certain set of passages, not found anywhere else, usually 2 or more things. This, the sages teach, is God's way of getting us to see a part in one passage, and another part in another passage, and together, a greater picture that anyone not interested in searching out would never see.
Also:
Hosea 7:1-7
Their (Israel's) sins engulf them; they are always before me. "They delight the king with their wickedness, the princes with their lies. They are all adulterers, burning like an oven whose fire the baker need not stir from the kneading of the dough till it rises. On the day of the festival of our king, the princes become inflamed with wine, and he joins hands with the mockers.
Their hearts are like an oven; they approach him with intrigue. Their passion smolders all night; in the morning it blazes like a flaming fire.
All of them are hot as an oven; they devour their rulers. All their kings fall, and none of them calls on me.
And...
Lamentations 1:13-15
"From on high, he (God) sent FIRE, sent it down into my bones. He spread a net for my feet and turned me back. He made me desolate, faint all the day long.
"MY SINS have been bound into a yoke; by his hands they were woven together. They (the sins) have been hung on my neck, and the Lord has sapped my strength.
He has given me into the hands of those I cannot withstand.
"The Lord has rejected all the warriors in my midst; he has summoned an army against me to crush my young men. In his winepress the Lord has trampled Virgin Daughter Judah.
Interesting, the image of a wine press, in that last one similar to Revelation 14
Hi all , I have always thought of Israel as the fig tree each man shall eat under his own fig tree ....
That is the reason the Lord Jesus said He found no guile in Nathanael an isralite ... also why the gentiles would enter the kingdom before the scribes Pharrisses and hypocrits ...
John 1 46Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." 47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!" 48Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
Jer 24 ..The Good and Bad Figs
...7'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart. 8'But like the bad figs which cannot be eaten due to rottenness-- indeed, thus says the LORD-- so I will abandon Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials, and the remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land and the ones who dwell in the land of Egypt. 9I will make them a terror and an evil for all the kingdoms of the earth, as a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse in all places where I will scatter them.
Hos 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
Quote from: rosered on July 19, 2014, 03:48:27 PM
Hi all , I have always thought of Israel as the fig tree each man shall eat under his own fig tree ....
That is the reason the Lord Jesus said He found no guile in Nathanael an isralite ... also why the gentiles would enter the kingdom before the scribes Pharrisses and hypocrits ...
John 1 46Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." 47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!" 48Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
Jer 24 ..The Good and Bad Figs
...7'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart. 8'But like the bad figs which cannot be eaten due to rottenness-- indeed, thus says the LORD-- so I will abandon Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials, and the remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land and the ones who dwell in the land of Egypt. 9I will make them a terror and an evil for all the kingdoms of the earth, as a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse in all places where I will scatter them.
Hos 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
:thumbsup:
It is similar to what Yeshua said, in quoting from the prophet:
'These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
(Mat 15:8)
That fig tree should not have put out leaves yet, since the fig fruit comes first, then the leaves afterward to protect it. So this tree was picturing hypocrisy. The leaves were there, (they draw near to me with their mouth), but the fruit wasn't (their heart is far from me).
the fig trees in the yard where I worked for four years always put out leaves first. 3 trees of green figs one tree of black figs.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 19, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
the fig trees in the yard where I worked for four years always put out leaves first. 3 trees of green figs one tree of black figs.
Sorry, I should have explained more in detail. Do you see on your plants what we call פרח perahh? These should normally be there when the leaves come out each year. These are the edible buds that come. You can call them figs, because we can eat them, but technically yes, the true fig which comes from that precursor comes later. The perahh is what Yeshua was looking for and did not see.
One spiritual lesson I have gleaned from this is that the Spirit in us today is called by Paul, a רחבונא, sort of like a 'pre proof' of something to come. The spirit today can be likened to perahh, the 'pre proof' of our inheritance in Messiah.
Ahhh, very cool. Thanks!
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 19, 2014, 07:33:40 PM
Quote from: rosered on July 19, 2014, 03:48:27 PM
Hi all , I have always thought of Israel as the fig tree each man shall eat under his own fig tree ....
That is the reason the Lord Jesus said He found no guile in Nathanael an isralite ... also why the gentiles would enter the kingdom before the scribes Pharrisses and hypocrits ...
John 1 46Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." 47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!" 48Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
Jer 24 ..The Good and Bad Figs
...7'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart. 8'But like the bad figs which cannot be eaten due to rottenness-- indeed, thus says the LORD-- so I will abandon Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials, and the remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land and the ones who dwell in the land of Egypt. 9I will make them a terror and an evil for all the kingdoms of the earth, as a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse in all places where I will scatter them.
Hos 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
:thumbsup:
It is similar to what Yeshua said, in quoting from the prophet:
'These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
(Mat 15:8)
That fig tree should not have put out leaves yet, since the fig fruit comes first, then the leaves afterward to protect it. So this tree was picturing hypocrisy. The leaves were there, (they draw near to me with their mouth), but the fruit wasn't (their heart is far from me).
Yes thank you for even more clarity ! :thumbsup:
It was excellent! That fig tree thing has bothered many a christian's thinking and there are many "preachers" who keep em befuddled. :Peace2:
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 19, 2014, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 19, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
the fig trees in the yard where I worked for four years always put out leaves first. 3 trees of green figs one tree of black figs.
Sorry, I should have explained more in detail. Do you see on your plants what we call פרח perahh? These should normally be there when the leaves come out each year. These are the edible buds that come. You can call them figs, because we can eat them, but technically yes, the true fig which comes from that precursor comes later. The perahh is what Yeshua was looking for and did not see.
One spiritual lesson I have gleaned from this is that the Spirit in us today is called by Paul, a רחבונא, sort of like a 'pre proof' of something to come. The spirit today can be likened to perahh, the 'pre proof' of our inheritance in Messiah.
I just thought of this
the fig leaves are what Adam and Eve used to ''cover their own nakedness ''
and no fruit would mean , they did not consider any one else to be covered , just as the lukewarm laodicean
Rev 3 ...17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,"
and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich,
and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19'
Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. the cutting down of the fig tree is reprove
being zealous is not giving up after you have so called '' covered your own shame '' , it is not enough and not in Jesus ! but a sign of unfaithfulness to His command , John come before Him saying repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand , this mighty Wind/Spirit warning to get ready !!
Jesus warns LEARN the parable of the fig tree when the figs begin to ripen the Wind would shake them Matthew 24:32-35 (HCSB) — 32 Now learn this parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near—at the door! 34 I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
The sixth seal in context
"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell . . .
as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And [all the earth people] . . . said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, an
d hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:12-17)
same as Adam and Eve Hiding from God in the garden! who told you , you were naked ?
The master of the fig tree had inspected it for three years, and was asked to give it another year. Now if those years equal millenniums, and if this inspection process began at the time of Abram (~2000 YBC), then we are brought up to the present day for the Master of the fig tree to make His final determination.
I think that those who bring forth fruit, and the Bible tells us just what that fruit is, will be the Elect. Non-fruit bearers are the non-elect, to be chopped down and thrown into the LoF. The ax is already at the root...
Thanks Lz ,
reminds me of the Verse in Genesis when God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply
same concept but in the Spiritual sense of the meaning
fruitful is the increase of God by the Holy Spirit
fruits Spirit Galatians 5:22-23Expanded Bible (EXB)
22 But the ·Spirit produces the fruit of [L fruit of the Spirit is] love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, ·faithfulness [or faith],
23 gentleness, self-control. ·There is no law that says these things are wrong [or No law can oppose such things].
some very tastey morsels in this thread. re the figtree without fruit[for it was not time/season for figs] cursed the untimely figs=
they did not recognize the time of their visitation.
Anyone see the fig tree as natural Israel? Not knowing the time of their visitation. "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks but you would not"
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Quote from: Seth on July 19, 2014, 04:14:59 AM
http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html
Very good and interesting link and article! though I didn't read every word but mostly jumped from LOF reference to LOF reference and reading aeound them, and also some scanning.
I especially liked - "So what is happening in this lake of fire? I can tell you what is not happening: Jesus will not be torturing people in literal fire."
"You were told that the "gates of Heaven" will be "locked shut" at the end of time to all unbelievers in the lake of fire. No they won't! You see here, regardless of the lake of fire, the gates of the Bride stay open." :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana:
"And the Spirit and the Bride say "come." And let him that heareth say "come." and let him that is athirst come. And whoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
That's the Bride talking, along with the Spirit. That's the Bride, with its open gates, speaking to who? Everyone outside the city. The Bride is certainly not speaking to itself! It wouldn't need to. There they are, gates open, still preaching the Gospel to everyone outside the city! And they will continue to preach the Gospel until every last fragment of God's creation is saved. " :banana: :dsunny:
"Let's break it down: As "in Adam," all die. Even so, "in Christ," all shall be made alive, but each in his own order:
1. Christ, the firstfruit
2. His followers
3. His enemies
Then, after EVERYTHING (in Adam) has been made to "be under obedience" to Christ - and made alive (in Christ) - he will hand the kingdom over to His Father, and voila! The whole of creation wrapped up "in Christ." The result: "So that God may be ALL in ALL." If you don't believe it, read it again. The sheer number of "all in all" is not limited contextually. Contextually, the subject matter is "as in Adam all die." That's everyone, folks. The scripture follows it down logically (once again) to the ultimate result: "So that God may be ALL in ALL."
All the enemies of Christ, outside the city, will enter the city for this reason:"
"Jeremiah 31:39-40
The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown (Hinnom), and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord.." "..you now know the final fate of the Valley of Hinnom: it shall be holy unto the Lord."
Very good!! and great use of verses!!
Thank you Marie. Glad you got something from it. :dsunny:
Quote from: Seth on July 19, 2014, 08:46:50 AM
Do you see any connection between Revelation 14, 21 and Isaiah 9?
..very interesting.. I think parts of the vision of Revelation is like an accordion (or fan) and I see chapters 14 and 19 as the same.. and now I see, or think, chapter 21 in part perhaps is also the same, yet parts being further along in the two reapings of chapter 14, as reference is made to an angel which
had one of the bowls/final consequences, and I think of the harvest or reaping of the grapes of wrath as being those last consequences, the seven bowls..
I tend to think of the city, the New Jerusalem as covering only partial of the Earth during judgment day/age of judgment (review) which I think (b'cause of the ancient Fall Holy Days spacing) that the day of judgment will last 500 years, during which there is inside and outside of the city.. (And of course down through the ages also.)
But I think most if not all of those throughout all Earth's ages, who did not come to redemption before their death will "take the water of life, come into the city, enter its gates" during that 500 year long age of "judgment"/review.
And notice, those who survived and lived on in the natural, during the millenium of Christ (the 1000 years of rev 20).. "
aFter that 1000 years, the opposer and deceiver Satan is let out of the abyss (of darkness and bottomless pit of darkness potential) and deceives some/many in surrounding the city of God.. This is before the resurrection (out of their graves where they were planted like seed) of all those not yet "saved".
To me, i lean most toward thinking of the LOF as possibly two things, besides God's purity which cleanses,
[#1]-as a total ending of men's institutions such as the big beast (world beast/governing) and the false prophet(teaching,theory) thrown into the LOF in chapter 19 (verse 20) and also the end of death and the grave in chapter 20.. and [#2]-as cleansing/purifying of the devil and his angels, who indeed require more stringent handling(?) tho still not physically tortured by the Lord, only by God's purifying Holy essence in contrast to their "darkness" and chains of..
I think Isaiah 9 and much of prophesy if not all, does coincide. That ultimately this life is the proving of good from evil (life from death, the city from outer darkness).. that like Israel the world wandered from God (a branching off of rationality/thinking ability which includes being able to make choices, even if highly limited). And like Israel will be gathered (home)..
I believe God's blueprint and ultimate reality is that he shall be "all in all" - no more outer darkness, but all will be 'within His gates'..
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 19, 2014, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 19, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
the fig trees in the yard where I worked for four years always put out leaves first. 3 trees of green figs one tree of black figs.
Sorry, I should have explained more in detail. Do you see on your plants what we call פרח perahh? These should normally be there when the leaves come out each year. These are the edible buds that come. You can call them figs, because we can eat them, but technically yes, the true fig which comes from that precursor comes later. The perahh is what Yeshua was looking for and did not see.
One spiritual lesson I have gleaned from this is that the Spirit in us today is called by Paul, a רחבונא, sort of like a 'pre proof' of something to come. The spirit today can be likened to perahh, the 'pre proof' of our inheritance in Messiah.
Aha! very interesting! :smile: both the pre-figs and the "pre-proof" (the "seal of His ownership on our heart which cries - Father, my Father!"..?)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 09, 2014, 10:12:04 PM
Anyone see the fig tree as natural Israel? Not knowing the time of their visitation. "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks but you would not"
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
..absolutely :thumbsup: :thumbsup: and Israel, also, imo, as a microcosm of the world..
Quote from: rosered on July 19, 2014, 03:48:27 PM
Hi all , I have always thought of Israel as the fig tree each man shall eat under his own fig tree ....
That is the reason the Lord Jesus said He found no guile in Nathanael an isralite ... also why the gentiles would enter the kingdom before the scribes Pharrisses and hypocrits ...
John 1 46Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." 47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!" 48Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on July 19, 2014, 03:48:27 PM
Jer 24 ..The Good and Bad Figs
…7'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart. 8'But like the bad figs which cannot be eaten due to rottenness
- indeed, thus says the LORD-- so I will abandon Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials, and the remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land and the ones who dwell in the land of Egypt. 9I will make them a terror and an evil for all the kingdoms of the earth, as a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse in all places where I will scatter them.
Israel as a microcosm of the world.. as Israel so the world? darkness a curse and taunt never forgotten, like smoke (memory of?) which will rise up for ever and ever.. this proving of good from evil, life from death, the city of God's Presence from the outer darkness..
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 19, 2014, 07:33:40 PM
:thumbsup:
It is similar to what Yeshua said, in quoting from the prophet:
'These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
(Mat 15:8)
That fig tree should not have put out leaves yet, since the fig fruit comes first, then the leaves afterward to protect it. So this tree was picturing hypocrisy. The leaves were there, (they draw near to me with their mouth), but the fruit wasn't (their heart is far from me).
:Chinscratch: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
How about those figs sent to Babylon
Jer 24 1After Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and the officials of Judah with the craftsmen and smiths from Jerusalem and had brought them to Babylon
, the LORD showed me: behold, two baskets of figs set before the temple of the LORD!
2One basket had very good figs, like first-ripe figs, and the other basket had very bad figs which could not be eaten due to rottenness.
I believe being sent to Babylon is for correction and suffering like a slave to remove spiritual pride
this is where you are tested in faithfulness
This is where you learn it not us but God whom saves you or anyone good figs
and those bad figs ? they become so self righteous and two fold the sons of hell /grave makers rottenness and full of dead mens bones
Quote from: rosered on December 10, 2014, 01:06:32 AM
I believe being sent to Babylon is for correction and suffering like a slave to remove spiritual pride
I agree.
I see a proud-resistant judgment as such:
Step 1
Jeremiah 2
19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Step 2
Deuteronomy 4
20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
Quote from: Seth on December 10, 2014, 01:19:50 AM
Quote from: rosered on December 10, 2014, 01:06:32 AM
I believe being sent to Babylon is for correction and suffering like a slave to remove spiritual pride
I agree.
Jeremiah 2
19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Deuteronomy 4
20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
Yes sir I agree , as they judge so shall they be judged by their own wickedness
Matt 7 1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged;
and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?...
the Log of spiritual blindness the felled trees ! as the ax is laid to the root of the trees
not being rooted and grounded in Christ or Love , both are the same to me !!
Luke 3 ...8"Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 9
"Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." 10And the crowds were questioning him, saying, "Then what shall we do?"...
Quote from: eaglesway on December 09, 2014, 10:12:04 PM
Anyone see the fig tree as natural Israel? Not knowing the time of their visitation. "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks but you would not"
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Just some thoughts.
When Jesus went to the fig tree he actually wanted a fig to eat.
Jesus may have actually been looking for fruit in Jerusalem.
Jesus had faith in the Father and would do whatever God asked.
Could Jesus have thought (hoped) there would be fruit of the spirit already in Jerusalem.
When he cursed the fig tree.
He knew the only way was for him to be accursed on a tree.
wow. That seems like a strong perspective to me, tho I had never considered it.
But I have often considered the hurt that is expressed, the sting of death as an emotional piercing of Christ's heart, "He came unto His own and His own received Him not"....."Jerusalem, Jerusalem"......the selection of Barabus over Him, when all He had done was heal, deliver, enlighten.
This same piercing sorrow is expressed in many places in the OT by the prophets, such as Hosea's dilemna with Gomer and other parables as well..... perhaps all looking forward too and culminating in the rejection of Messiah by His beloved Israel.
I believe the fearful and unbelieving were afraid of the authorities those religious leaders as lawyers and officers and elders , priests and the powers that be
It would be hard to go against everything you have ever known and break those traditions of men that have been set in stone for centuries as TRUTH
and this one man comes calling Himself the Son of God and showed Love and mercy to everyone and done nothing but Good works
when they were told to be separate from sin and in their spiritual blindness the religious leaders ,all partakers , were the ones full of sin and error
This is a very powerful prophecy in Luke 22 that had to be fulfilled , when true darkness and ignorance and betrayal was reigning for the hour , Just as Judas was chosen for such a betrayal
this is an hour when the beast /carnal men would be given power prophesied in Revelation as a TRUE SIGN of the times
Luke 22 52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests and the officers of the Temple guard and the elders who had come there to get him,
"Did you have to come with swords and clubs, as though I were an outlaw?
53 I was with you in the Temple every day, and you did not try to arrest me. But this is your hour to act, when the power of darkness rules."
For me its the guilty calling the innocent evil or the scripture being fulfilled calling evil good and the good evil
Isaiah 5 ;20 What sorrow for those who say that evil is good and good is evil, that dark is light and light is dark, that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.
2Tim
ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth [a scribe reader of the Word , Pharisee separatist and hypocrites pretending to be something they are not such as wise and powerful to the things of God and making a mockery of the TRUTH ! no understanding , no discernment no knowledge of God
just greedy power hungry brute beasts whom fill their own bellies and call it Gods will :sigh:
Proverbs 14 5A trustworthy witness will not lie, But a false witness utters lies.
6A scoffer seeks wisdom and finds none, But knowledge is easy to one who has understanding.
7 Leave the presence of a fool, Or you will not discern words of knowledge. same as , come out of Her my people unless you receive her plagues
Quote from: eaglesway on December 11, 2014, 07:32:33 AM
wow. That seems like a strong perspective to me, tho I had never considered it.
But I have often considered the hurt that is expressed, the sting of death as an emotional piercing of Christ's heart, "He came unto His own and His own received Him not"....."Jerusalem, Jerusalem"......the selection of Barabus over Him, when all He had done was heal, deliver, enlighten.
This same piercing sorrow is expressed in many places in the OT by the prophets, such as Hosea's dilemna with Gomer and other parables as well..... perhaps all looking forward too and culminating in the rejection of Messiah by His beloved Israel.
I think the greatest temptation we can have toward anger that leads to sin.
Is when a Loved one betrays us.
When the one we Love knowingly falsely accuses us.
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[f] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses,
but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
there is a time and season for every purpose under heaven...a time to live and a time to die.[law covenant/death] Grace covenant/life
Quote from: dajomaco on December 13, 2014, 07:33:12 PM
I think the greatest temptation we can have toward anger that leads to sin.
Is when a Loved one betrays us.
When the one we Love knowingly falsely accuses us.
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[f] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
:thumbsup: