Tentmaker Forum

Isaiah 66:24-"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

How would a Universalist approach this verse(what does it mean,etc)?

To list related verses:

Mat 3:12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mat 13:49  So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 
Mat 13:50  And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

1Co 3:11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 
1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 
1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 
1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 
1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Th 5:19  Quench not the Spirit. 

Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

I am thinking it has to do with every man's work being tested by fire and burned up. Interesting to note it says their worm.

What I feel is the key to this verse is the word translated as "abhorrence"

H1860 From an unused root (meaning to repulse); an object of aversion: - abhorring, contempt.

and when we dig into the meaning of "aversion"
1. a strong feeling of dislike, opposition, repugnance, or antipathy (usually followed by to):
2. a cause or object of dislike; person or thing that causes antipathy
3. Obsolete - the act of adverting, a turning away or preventing

and then digging even farther to the word "avert"
1. to turn away or aside
2. to ward off; prevent

So in all of this, I see it as people who turn others away from understanding the fullness of "The Grace of God", the truth that all mankind will be saved --- because is it not this type of person that dislikes the idea of "the salvation of all" and if they fully believe that all of mankind will not be saved, then of course they have to do everything in their power to prevent someone else who is seeking the truth from searching out the possibility of "the salvation of all".

That, "what" they believe is "their" worm that will not die ---- "what" they believe is "their" fire that will not be quenched and that they become that "aversion/worm/fire" because they themselves have turned away from understanding "the fullness of the Grace of God".

and then going back to the first part of the verse in that they believe anyone who does not believe what they do is dead, and that is --- because of "what" they believe, they believe that they are the only ones who are alive in Christ.

my  :2c:

Quote from: JamesH on December 24, 2018, 11:19:01 PM
Isaiah 66:24-"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

How would a Universalist approach this verse(what does it mean,etc)?

The end result of Godlessness.. will expose it for exactly what it is.. in all it's horrible potential (an abyss of possibility) - And so, proven, Godlessness will be (age to age) an abhorrence to all.. His law (summed up by Love) then written, by this travail/lesson, upon every heart, mind and psyche. Thoroughly convinced..

I believe the verse to be referring to after mankind's 3rd 'world' war' (so to speak).. which the book of Revelation says will conclude in that notorious valley called Gehenna and Armageddon.. 3 thermonuclear type events in Rev. (I'm especially convinced of this since I learned there is indeed lightning included with those events.. and the large hail ..have you seen film footage of 911? To John, debris looked like large hail..?) If all the world repented :Pray: the trend the world is on would be prevented.. but golly, there sure is lots of other wars and tribulations which have occurred and Jesus' first coming was very literal, so I do indeed believe 2nd will be literal too, with all that is prophesied, in the prophets, etc. I think the literal understanding of the bible IS the #1 (imo:) spiritual lesson.

And the conclusion - dead bodies, looked upon in memory never forgotten, like the smoke of it rising up age to age.. Just like Jude wrote, Sodom and Gomorrah's judgment as the example of aionian (or whatever usage of the word, verb, noun or adjective - aionian) fiery judgment -  THE example. ---- Is there fire there now? no. Just the memory, where the smoke of it still rises..

So that's what I think. Not an easy lesson. One of all Earth's ages. Two roads/way of life.. one works, one is Life, and one is not, and the lesson is - the wrong road/way - can never be done.

For look how it ends! This way of self-interest ruling rather than love.. Or that is life without God as KING and 'on the throne' since God is life itself, and, or the source of all life. All things must be built upon the Rock, for all else is sand and cannot endure. Life or death. Saying to "all in heaven and earth" -- See the conclusion? Of the wrong road? The wars? The horrors? of life not ruled by God.. Never to be forgotten -- To be forever abhorred.

It's my belief eternal death, lack of life - aka, dead/"nekros"=lacking life, is the very REAL potential all face(d). BUT, "God is the savior of all" because Jesus, as He said, will draw all to Him (Jn.12:32) "The wages/result of sin is death" and "the soul that sins shall die". So life apart from God? Can never be done, or that is results in.. the wages of, is death. (I think sometimes some want to throw out the bible because of the insertion of 'hell' - old world superstition translated into the bible via old world translators from a culture steeped in those pagan ideas.. But God's word is inerrant, it's only translators who are not, and now we have great study and language tools, so the Spirit can easily teach us beyond the very limited error of translation, which God has allowed, for, I am sure, perfect reason. But it was the gnostics (pagans) who tried to spiritualize all of scripture without any literal :faint: which readers are very likely to think of as just more babble. (I've heard it called gobbly gook by Et'ers!) We need the literal with the spiritual. It cannot be left out, as I do believe that very much contradicts God's word(s) and the Lord Jesus'. ("Mystery babble"/confusion is the forehead, psyche of the world). Whereas Paul seemed to indicate we should speak truth plainly. The Gnostics thought hidden messages/mysteries/knowledge/gnosis was what saved. Again.. wages, as if God owes us we're so smart.. "The circumcision thought they were so good God owed them salvation, and the gnostics thought God owed them salvation because they were special and they were wiser than others, Nicolaitans perhaps wrangled their way as rulers over the laity, when Jesus said to call no man father.. Or even Rabbi.. When really the truth is so simple.. but so largely veiled..

UR doesn't change the whole gospel.. it's simply bigger.. SO much more successful.. So much more a reflection of God's attributes of ability, and character of love--"which never fails" (1Cor.13:8)

P.S. I don't think any humans will go to lof, 'judgment' being an age of atonement.. (unless it is within like we too have experienced, for God is indeed a consuming fire of purity which consumes impurity like light consumes darkness). The 2 of Rev. 19 cast there being 1, an institution, or world body, of mankind active at the time of Jesus' return, and 2, is a world belief prevalent at His return.. And not humans either..