I have read that early church universalist fathers thought that universalism should not be preached to everyone. They described it as brightest truth that is just wonderful, but everyone can't watch it without burning their eyes.
And it seems that preaching straight universalism has never been really popular in christendom. But many times you feel it there. And sometimes you can read it between lines. I am a priest, and i do not preach universalism as an absolute truth. But i truly try to keep the hope up. Give glimpses of it.
But what do you think? Should churches teach universal reconciliation as a truth, or is guiding to hope it enough? And could it be harmful to some who might not be ready for it? Should it be kept as a "secret"?
Hi,
I don't think Paul preached about the salvation of all much because of the persecution and the time he spent in prison. He kept asking for prayer that he would be able to teach it as he wanted to but I don't think it was allowed even then. When Paul said the secret that had been kept from the world had been revealed to him I think he was talking about the salvation of all. This was only given to Paul to teach, the rest of the apostles preached the New Covenant, or kingdom message to the Jew's.
This is only my opinion but when it is time for this gospel to be preached to the world, God will see that it is preached. I got a feeling this is just on the horizon. I personally feel this is the time for the salvation of all to be preached but God is the one in charge of things. :happy3:
CHB
It's indeed true the church fathers withheld the truth about the nature of the fire from the new believers.
They felt some fear would mak ethe people better Christians.
Quote from: hopingpriest on March 29, 2011, 08:36:03 PM
I have read that early church universalist fathers thought that universalism should not be preached to everyone. They described it as brightest truth that is just wonderful, but everyone can't watch it without burning their eyes.
And it seems that preaching straight universalism has never been really popular in christendom. But many times you feel it there. And sometimes you can read it between lines. I am a priest, and i do not preach universalism as an absolute truth. But i truly try to keep the hope up. Give glimpses of it.
But what do you think? Should churches teach universal reconciliation as a truth, or is guiding to hope it enough? And could it be harmful to some who might not be ready for it? Should it be kept as a "secret"?
Only God can reveal that to you. I think as a church leader it is important that you are convinced of the stances you take. If you are not sure, or not prepared to defend then it's probably not your time. But, I think there are many church leaders in your position, they just are not sure...or they are sure and they fear the consequences for "coming out". I think many behind the pulpit feel this pressure, real or perceived, that they are supposed to have it all nailed down. But, personally I love when a pastor, teacher reveals his own personal struggles on a subject, and gives glimpses of the hope he has come to believe. I don't think it's wrong for a church leader to say, well this group believes this, and that group believes that, and let the Holy Spirit do the work. Church leaders are not called to be the Holy Spirit, nor have all the answers. I believe many in your congregation would be very happy with your honest presentation of a very tough subject.
Yep, not too long time ago I too read an article, according to which Origen, while being a convinced UR believer, preached eternal torchery to the masses. It didn't cite any sources though. This was surprising to me, for I had always thought Origen was openly UR.
Quote from: shawn on March 29, 2011, 09:29:57 PM
But, personally I love when a pastor, teacher reveals his own personal struggles on a subject, and gives glimpses of the hope he has come to believe. I don't think it's wrong for a church leader to say, well this group believes this, and that group believes that, and let the Holy Spirit do the work. Church leaders are not called to be the Holy Spirit, nor have all the answers. I believe many in your congregation would be very happy with your honest presentation of a very tough subject.
I agree; I think being open about possible different opinions and the path you've travelled encourages people to accept and respond to what you're saying, and to ask their own questions.
I don't think it could be "harmful" to those who might not be ready for it, though who am I to argue with the early church fathers? I think it more likely that people would just dismiss it as nonsense if they couldn't accept it. Having said that, it does blow the mind a bit when you first come to it - or I found that, anyway. :mshock:
There are several instances in Scripture where someone had just experienced a mile-stone moment with Jesus and Jesus would then immediately instruct them to tell no one of what they saw, heard or experienced. I'm not one to preach one thing while a whole other thing is being revealed to me. I can't say I agree with that kind of thinking. I think God gives us intimate details of his nature directly and individually because that's how relationships work. To me, the reasons why people were told not to tell anyone of what they saw was because those life-changing things they were seeing could only happen through personal experince rather than through the pronouncment "about" the experience by another person. I'm not so sure UR is one of those things though.
Not telling others because we're afraid of how they'll respond, for me, isn't a good reason to keep silent. We again are letting fear influence our steps.
Now . .at the same time . . .going to a person I have no relationship with and trying to share with them spiritual truths and then leaving them on their own is just as ineffective as well. I think the message IS for the masses, but it's not to be preached in mass form. I think it's to be imbedded, planted . . .impregnated into others based on a pre-existing relationship we have with them so that we can nurture them, strengthen them, continue to feed them . . .like a mid-wife kind of thing. Jesus didn't go around dropping doctrinal bombs just for shock and awe purposes. He set out to build personal relationships. Paul did the same . . yes, he went from town to town preaching as he went, but he was also establishing connections and inter-locking relationships with those he was preaching to. He raised up pastors and encouraged them and Fathered them.
I liken it to one who is single, but dating. We're not to become intimate wtih multiple partners, having our fun and moving on to the next. We have been given a precious seed through grace based on our relationship with the Father and it's only through relathionship with others that we take this life-seed given to us, that we can then pass the seed on into others as well. Sure, without worrying about the dedication and responsiblity of a relationship, it's a great way to get a church riled up, I mean, for all intents and purposes, we "are" preaching truth, right? But once we've moved on, without any further watering and nurturing, that which we did disperse will merely dry up and be choked out by the same religious smoke and mirror doctrine that was in place before we were there at all.
Freedom is coming to the masses, but on individual levels of relationship. Books out there like Rob Bells make great kindling to start a good fire, but without personal relationships with others who know what to do with someone who's become spiritually pregnant, the fire started by a book could very easily turn into a still-born child.
For me the message of UR gospel is good news instead of bad news. People have a savior whether they know it or not and for someone needing good news it would be good to tell them. For someone who thinks this good news means they can live like hell and get away with it just needs a little more hell here on earth to come to the place where they know they are in need of a savior. I think religous people who fight this message like mad need to have it explained to them in love and wait for God to move on them until they are ready. As the tide turns and more people believe it, more people will believe it, and it will become a flood that will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. I can hardly wait.
I think any antidode to ET is good medicine to the soul and UR is very good anti-ETdoctrinalvirus.
I think there are weaknesses to UR though, and that is living a casual christian life, a bit like removing abs brakes on a car when it comes to attitudes to sin, but life is sweeter in my experience and there is much less to worry about, but then it's about growing in love that is from Christ, so that there is energy and motivation to help others and be of service and to love oneself without guilt, thus making it less likely to sin.
I agree with bushy that teaching to others should be gradual and not, thrown upon ministers etc.
Quote from: thinktank on April 10, 2011, 01:28:52 AM
I think there are weaknesses to UR though, and that is living a casual christian life, a bit like removing abs brakes on a car when it comes to attitudes to sin, but life is sweeter in my experience and there is much less to worry about, but then , so that there is energy and motivation to help others and be of service and to love oneself without guilt, thus making it less likely to sin.
I agree with bushy that teaching to others should be gradual and not, thrown upon ministers etc.
Tank, IMO, by saying this; "it's about growing in love that
is from Christ", you explained well what we often don't understand about a true relationship with the Father through Yashua - that He does
His work through us, directing our steps, working all things according to the counsel of His will. I
do believe it goes much better with the obedience and submission of our will to His (which is learned over time through trials and failures) but still, we think we're doing all these things for the Lord, while not seeing His hand behind us, guiding our way.
Apostle Paul said he does things, but it's "I, yet
not I". So what we (or many) may perceive as a weakness in UR, i.e., the threat of eternal torture in hell being removed, can s/w leave out of the equation that it's Christ being the Author and Finisher - saved by grace not works. I believe when I seek Him, it's Him giving me the desire to so and the strength to do so. If I have faith to believe, He's given it. When I confess, He has convicted and made provision. When I obey Him, He has given the desire and ability to do so. In Him I live, move, have my being. Otherwise, I'm flopping around in my own works like a fish out of water, accomplishing nothing - other than reaching another dead end in the process of learning to look to Him and trust Him for all things.
In sharing with others, I've at times felt some hesitation, even guilt due to questioning "did I make it seem too easy, did I include enough of a threat?". :mblush: I've read as well that some of the early religious leaders believed "the people" needed the threat of hell to keep them in line. Then I must ask, why is someone serving Him? Out of fear and to escape punishment (me to some extent, for many years) or because we love Him, are focused on Him, know He's a God good enough and big enough to really trust, and are resting in His promises to complete His work in us? :thumbsup:
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." Romans 9:16
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/eternal_hell_is_gone_but_gods_fire_burns_bright_8775.msg106743.html#msg106743
:cloud9: I think you rely on the Spirit to lead you, as in all things. I have times when I absolutely could not keep my mouth shut to a stranger about it, and the next person I come across, I CAN'T open my mouth about it, it's like nothing will come out. Men are like trees, and all fruit has a season of it's own. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on April 12, 2011, 07:49:40 PM
:cloud9: I think you rely on the Spirit to lead you, as in all things. I have times when I absolutely could not keep my mouth shut to a stranger about it, and the next person I come across, I CAN'T open my mouth about it, it's like nothing will come out. Men are like trees, and all fruit has a season of it's own. My :2c: Blessings.....
A great big, fat AMEN to that!!!