Tentmaker Forum

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe. I wrote a blog about it (http://savagesoto.blogspot.com) but now I feel kindof stupid cuz this seems to be an obvious contradiction

We are reconciled to God, made alive to Him, but I believe as Scripture declares that we are "justified by faith". So in my understanding the curse has been broken and paid for by Christ. He has reconciled us to God through His body. This means we again have a relationship with God. But "justification" means that we can stand before God without a certificate of decree against us (Col 2:14).

Although the work has been done by Christ completely, until one believes and confesses Christ as Lord then he cannot stand before God as justified. However, it will surely happen for every man -- in this age, or the age to come. "Every knee shall bow..."

TS

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."


Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [ the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Quote from: Texas Son on June 25, 2009, 05:23:36 AM
Although the work has been done by Christ completely, until one believes and confesses Christ as Lord then he cannot stand before God as justified. However, it will surely happen for every man -- in this age, or the age to come. "Every knee shall bow..."
TS

Amen!

Quote from: Pierac on June 25, 2009, 05:28:57 AM
Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 -

Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do(His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

And Amen!

but then people talk about how everyone is already saved in a sense.

ughhh

This stuff frustrates me. I feel like I have to change my theological views on a daily basis.

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 25, 2009, 06:24:11 AM
but then people talk about how everyone is already saved in a sense.

ughhh

This stuff frustrates me. I feel like I have to change my theological views on a daily basis.

I ran into this argument with the elders of my church as I was stepping down from being an elder. I realized from listening to them how selfish I had once been towards others. It's the mentality of "what's in it for me?".

God's reward is unimaginable for His heirs. We store up our treasures in heaven. As faithful servants who believe and demonstrate God's love on earth, we build up those treasures where they belong. It's not a matter "why bother if everyone will be saved?", but a matter of being able to approach your heavenly Father as a faithful servant and son.

I believe the parable of the rich man and lazarus pertains to us as well. If we enter death without justification we will have a long "time-out" awaiting us. The rich man begged for a taste of cool water. I believe the cool water is the living water that Jesus claimed to be. Without justification by faith in this life, or this age, we will have to wait for the summation of the ages to get that relief on our parched tongue. But it will come...

Men cannot comprehend the unimaginable love of God. Even in our Christian carnal minds we have come to think we are more deserving than others. God's love knows no boundaries.

Quote from: Texas Son on June 25, 2009, 07:30:56 AM
The rich man begged for a taste of cool water. I believe the cool water is the living water that Jesus claimed to be.

I like that thought...

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 25, 2009, 05:13:23 AM
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe. I wrote a blog about it (http://savagesoto.blogspot.com) but now I feel kindof stupid cuz this seems to be an obvious contradiction

Darn, this verse is confusing me! lol Maybe I'll tackle it later, but I don't want my original message to stay up. xD

but this is how I see it (and how people have been affirming up until here in this thread) we didnt CHOOSE or CONFESS to be condemned in adam...it was automatic as the result of his sin. and it says "so also" which seemingly says to me "in the same way" our justification comes through Christ. if its "in the same way" than it cant be by choice, it too must be automatic via Christs act of righteousness


see what Im saying?

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 25, 2009, 08:08:14 AM
but this is how I see it (and how people have been affirming up until here in this thread) we didnt CHOOSE or CONFESS to be condemned in adam...it was automatic as the result of his sin. and it says "so also" which seemingly says to me "in the same way" our justification comes through Christ. if its "in the same way" than it cant be by choice, it too must be automatic via Christs act of righteousness


see what Im saying?

Well, maybe it's when were born into life with Christ that it applies. So, people are born into sin without their choosing, and they'll be born into righteousness/justification/life through Christ, when he saves them, without their choosing. (Remember, you are saved by grace, not by works, so not of your choosing.)

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 25, 2009, 05:13:23 AM
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe. I wrote a blog about it (http://savagesoto.blogspot.com) but now I feel kindof stupid cuz this seems to be an obvious contradiction

Ninja, I have been writing a bit about that here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6251.0 starting at around reply #21. Some of the things might address your question.

I'll try and give a short version here. No, not everyone is automatically justified. In Christianity, there is a alot of confusion about the difference between reconciliation and salvation and justification. We were reconciled to God at the cross, and the word reconcile in the Greek denotes a sense of "change." Many verses regarding reconciliation revolve around the sense that the reconciliation/change has to do with the fact that Christ put away the division between God and man which was the law. With the law out of the way, man's sins are not imputed, but that doesn't mean he doesn't HAVE sin, only that it isn't being counted up against him as an accuser. With the global peace made in this monumental change (ie no more necessity to be circumcised or keep away from the holiest place by way of priests), each person is now able to approach God for salvation from sin. Without the requirements of the law, now man can receive the Spirit which purifies and redeems us FROM iniquity.

The word "justification" comes from the word dikaioo. That word means "righteousness." In Romans 5, Paul writes about how the free gift is justification to all men; he means that the free gift is that due to reconciliation, all men SHALL be MADE righteous. The free gift is deliverance from sin for all people. But look in the beginning of Romans 6, where it says that "he who is dead is free from sin."

The word "free" is dikaioo. He is saying that whoever the Spirit makes dead TO sin is therefore freed from sin, and therefore dikaioo/righteous. This process of being freed from sin is the free gift that will be eventually given to all men...but each man will be made alive in his own order 1 Corinthians 15.

I guess that wasn't as short as I set out to make it. In short: everyone is reconciled by the putting away of the law, and everyone will be made justified/righteous in their order, which is the free gift.

Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2009, 08:25:26 AM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 25, 2009, 05:13:23 AM
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe. I wrote a blog about it (http://savagesoto.blogspot.com) but now I feel kindof stupid cuz this seems to be an obvious contradiction

Ninja, I have been writing a bit about that here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6251.0 starting at around reply #21. Some of the things might address your question.

I'll try and give a short version here. No, not everyone is automatically justified. In Christianity, there is a alot of confusion about the difference between reconciliation and salvation and justification. We were reconciled to God at the cross, and the word reconcile in the Greek denotes a sense of "change." Many verses regarding reconciliation revolve around the sense that the reconciliation/change has to do with the fact that Christ put away the division between God and man which was the law. With the law out of the way, man's sins are not imputed, but that doesn't mean he doesn't HAVE sin, only that it isn't being counted up against him as an accuser. With the global peace made in this monumental change (ie no more necessity to be circumcised or keep away from the holiest place by way of priests), each person is now able to approach God for salvation from sin. Without the requirements of the law, now man can receive the Spirit which purifies and redeems us FROM iniquity.

The word "justification" comes from the word dikaioo. That word means "righteousness." In Romans 5, Paul writes about how the free gift is justification to all men; he means that the free gift is that due to reconciliation, all men SHALL be MADE righteous. The free gift is deliverance from sin for all people. But look in the beginning of Romans 6, where it says that "he who is dead is free from sin."

The word "free" is dikaioo. He is saying that whoever the Spirit makes dead TO sin is therefore freed from sin, and therefore dikaioo/righteous. This process of being freed from sin is the free gift that will be eventually given to all men...but each man will be made alive in his own order 1 Corinthians 15.

I guess that wasn't as short as I set out to make it. In short: everyone is reconciled by the putting away of the law, and everyone will be made justified/righteous in their order, which is the free gift.

Good word, Seth.  :thumbsup:

In addition, we can see in 1st Corinthians 15 that the "dead" shall be raised, and we shall "all" be changed. Not the living, not the do-gooders, but the "dead" (which is the one position none of us can escape). We will all be raised unto righteousness, but that is distinctly different from those who walk in the kingdom here and now.

I posted this elsewhere, but I think it may be helpful here (or at least I'd like to say it  :bigGrin:).

"People have different understandings of this, but here's mine.  My understanding of the 'elect' is they are those God gives faith to believe in this lifetime...the 'chosen', which He uses for His purposes, including sharing the Good News with others.

IMO, they are those to whom He specifically, individually visits with His Spirit, convicts them of their need for Him, then gives them the faith to believe and turn to Him in trust as their Savior;  getting "saved".   I don't believe all are given that faith to believe unto salvation in this lifetime;  only some, the 'elect' or 'chosen'.  Thus scriptures like Romans 10:9  If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."  As an example, Jesus told the disciples that if He didn't speak to the people in parables, they would understand;  and that it hadn't been given to them to understand, it had been given to the disciples.

God's got a GREAT BIG PLAN.  I do believe all are predestined, but in our own order.  Some now, all later at the consummation.  My  :2c: .

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 25, 2009, 05:13:23 AM
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Looking at this Ive come to understand that ALL people are already justified by Christ, they just arent persay sanctified into a relationship with Him. but then I get confused by these verses later on in the chapter

Romans 10:9-10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

because here it looks like you are not justified until you believe.

My, as usual unorthodox, understanding of this.
Jesus never saved us all as in just magicly making us saved. He made a payment with His life. With that payment He bought the gifts of life. For each one that ever lived and will live He wrapped up that gift in a nice box and stored it somewhere. The only thing you have to do is to come and collect it. Can some not choose to collect it? Yes. But it's a prophesy that everyone  will come to collect the gift.

When looking a but further at the verse. (and contradicting what I wrote above....  :winkgrin:)
Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came  upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came  upon all men unto justification of life.

The blue parts are added by the KJV translators. It can be 100% correct but also 100% wrong. Perhaps partly correct that for example the gift is not free. It requires a small payment in the form kneeling/turning to Jesus?
(ETs often say many don't accept 'the gift'. But those words are not in the original text so a very weak foundation to base a doctrine on)

Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2009, 08:25:26 AM
The word "justification" comes from the word dikaioo.

This is what Bullinger wrote about that word:

Quote191.  "JUST", "JUSTIFY", ETC.
1. dikaios = just, righteous. From dike, right (see Ap. 177. 4).  Occ. eighty times; forty transl. "righteous"; thirty-three "just"; five times "right"; and thrice "meet".  In two places (Rom. 3:8.  Heb. 2:2) "just" is the rendering of endikos.  No other word in N.T. for "just", or "righteous".

2. dikaioo is to set forth as righteous, to justify.  Occ. forty times, of which fifteen are in Romans.  Always rendered "justify", except Rom. 6:7 ("freed"), and Rev. 22:11 ("be righteous").  The participle is transl. "justifier" in Rom. 3:26.

3. dikaiosune = righteousness.  Occ. ninety-two times, of which thirty-six are in Romans.  Always transl. "righteousness".  Other words to which the same transl. is given are dikaioma (see below), and euthutes, which latter occ. only in Heb. 1:8.

4. dikaioma is a righteous ordinance, a decree (of acquittal).  See Ap. 177. 4.  Rendered "righteousness" in Rom. 2:26; 5:18; 8:4.  Rev. 19:8; and "ordinance" in Luke 1:6.  Heb 9:1, 10 :  "judgment", Rom. 1:32. Rev. 15:4 :  "justification", Rom. 5:16.

5. dikaiosis = justification.  Occ. only in Rom. 4:25; 5:18.  The only other word rendered "justification" is dikaioma (see 4), in Rom. 5:16.

When he writes translated, he means translated in KJV.

Quote from: j. on June 25, 2009, 08:36:36 AM
Good word, Seth.  :thumbsup:

In addition, we can see in 1st Corinthians 15 that the "dead" shall be raised, and we shall "all" be changed. Not the living, not the do-gooders, but the "dead" (which is the one position none of us can escape). We will all be raised unto righteousness, but that is distinctly different from those who walk in the kingdom here and now.

Hi j, good point. Jesus did not come to heal the well, or raise the living. He came to heal the sick and raise the dead, which is everyone  :happygrin:

This is always what I point to when people ask that timeless question: if everyone is saved, then why spread the gospel? I say, first of all not everyone is saved yet, and second, why would I want to deprive anyone of a chance to recieve the promised Holy Spirit?

wonder if all men are saved just many asleep.

Chuckt, I would probably word it different myself to say that all are reconciled yet most are asleep. And what we are saying is that each man in his order will be SAVED FROM their sleep/sin now that they have been reconciled.

I dont know, I guess I still ride with the idea that "everyone is saved, they just dont know it yet". Because think about it...whether someone has recieved the gift its still YOURS and youre still destinied to TAKE it. They may not know about that justification yet, but it was still paid FOR them and God KNOWS it, whether they do yet or not.

When one "accepts" the gift they do so because God has revealed it to them as truth.  NOT because they knew it was truth, and politely declined because burning in hell sounds like fun. They werent awakened to the knowledge of their salvation in Christ...and if you dont know you have a million dollars in the bank you certainly cant benifit from it. I think thats what Jesus meant by being "born again" because you cant "see the kingdom" until you are awakened to Christ, nor can you benifit from it

extra post

QuoteThey werent awakened to the knowledge of their salvation in Christ

Ninja, the salvation in Christ is salvation from sin, not salvation while still toiling in it. People should be awakened to the knowledge of reconciliation, because as the Bible says "having been reconciled, how much MORE shall we be saved through his life." It is the by the inworking of Christ's life that delivers us from the bondage of the old man we were enslaved to.

You can't tell a prostitute or a thief or a murderer that they are saved from these things when they are still enslaved to them. However if you tell them that God, through Christ, has removed all impedances to come to Him, then they can believe and will be saved from what enslaves them.

Romans 4:11-12
That righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2009, 09:41:22 PM

QuoteThey werent awakened to the knowledge of their salvation in Christ

Ninja, the salvation in Christ is salvation from sin, not salvation while still toiling in it. People should be awakened to the knowledge of reconciliation, because as the Bible says "having been reconciled, how much MORE shall we be saved through his life." It is the by the inworking of Christ's life that delivers us from the bondage of the old man we were enslaved to.

You can't tell a prostitute or a thief or a murderer that they are saved from these things when they are still enslaved to them. However if you tell them that God, through Christ, has removed all impedances to come to Him, then they can believe and will be saved from what enslaves them.

Romans 4:11-12
That righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

see but thats not the type of salvation im talking about. Hence why i think there are two different "phases" of salvation, if you will.

What Im talking about is people being saved from the offense of their sins. if you take the greek meanings of the word "sin" the following reads thus:

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not [miss the mark]. But if anyone does [miss the mark], we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.   He is the propitiation for our [offense], and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

because of Christ, God cannot be offended by our sin.  its impossible. be you "saved" or in the world, God is not counting your sins against you because of the cross

Your are talking about reconciliation, which is God not imputing sin against man by way of the law.

The bible is clear that salvation is MORE than reconciliation, and it comes by Christ's life. Jesus is named Jesus (Jehovah saves) for the explicit purpose of "saving his people FROM their sins." Telling someone they are saved FROM sin is not the same thing as telling them they are reconciled and sins are not imputed.

but reconciliation is apart of salvation, no? people are already saved in that they are reconciled, but not yet awakened to their life in Christ which ALLOWS them to overcome the adamic nature within and have a relationship with God.'

Am I wrong here?

Reconciliation LEADS to salvation. The Bible says we were reconciled by Christ's death, and MUCH MORE, we are saved by his life. One leads to the other. We are given the ministry of reconciliation and we plead in Christ's stead "be ye reconciled" to God. God has reconciled the world to himself by removing the middle partition of the law, NOW people can reconcile their minds to God by recieving the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is how, much more than being reconciled by his death, we are saved (from sin) by his life. That is why people are "justified" (ie made righteous) by grace through faith. Grace is what "teaches us to life godly in this present age." That is the salvation by His life that we are talking about.

but people cant do anything until Christ reveals God to them (mat 11:27)

blah, idk. everyone is saved in the end, whatever lol

Yes, everyone is saved IN THE END, which is what Paul describes in 1 Cor 15. Then the end comes and each man is given life IN CHRIST to his own order.

Romans 7 describes how the law kept us separated from God because SIN used the law to become exceeding within us. God reconciles the problem by removing the partition so that man can recieve the life in Christ that saves them from bondage. That is the progression from reconciliation to salvation.

Because God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean we don't HAVE sin. It just means it is not being counted in the manner of the law. Even John says that if we say we are without sin, we lie to ourselves. HAVING sin, though it is not imputed by law, is the problem that salvation solves.

Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2009, 10:01:44 PM
Yes, everyone is saved IN THE END, which is what Paul describes in 1 Cor 15. Then the end comes and each man is given life IN CHRIST to his own order.

1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

What is the difference between the first fruits group and the group that belongs to Him?
There seems to be another group mentioned below.
Three groups in total?


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 
-> Jesus comes at the start of that 1000 years.
-> So the group mentioned below isn't part of the above mentioned groups (unless they died in the 1000 years)

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

I think the final group is mentioned in the same chapter. Each man to his order. First Christ, then his at his coming, then comes the end when Christ subdues all enemies to the kingdom, for he shall reign until he puts all enemies under his feet. Then he hands everything to God to be all in all. Three groups: Christ, his, and enemies.

"whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE saved"...IMO, not "already is and don't yet know it"...Seems to me that one way to look at it is, because God says something WILL happen, in a sense, is the same as already done, because you can bank on it, write it down...He'll do it.  However, as I understand, Paul says there's a process, stages if you will, that He will vivify all...as WW quoted, each in his own order.  Some now, not all yet, but the rest later. 

The price has been paid...The way of the cross, Jesus' blood, has made the provision for that to occur, God reconciling Himself to man...all in the timing of God's PLAN.  My understanding of it.

the universalist books/artices ive read so far say that everyone is saved in one sense yet in another sense needs to be saved in a process. So I guess Im just missing something


whatever, I dont know whats true anymore

I understand.  Since coming into view of UR I've wondered over the same thing, and it can be confusing.  The best I can understand right now is as I mentioned above;  that the price has been paid...the way of the cross, Jesus' blood, has made the provision for a) some to be given faith to believe in this lifetime...the ecclesia, saved for the purpose of serving to bring in b) the rest that will be saved, "in His presence", when every knee will bow and every tongue confess.  Ask God to specifically show you.  He will.

One of my favorite Christian writers is Miles Stanford. He has gone home into glory in the late 90's. He authored "The Green Letters" among many other books. To my knowledge he is not of the UR mindset but he has wonderful writings about sanctification.

One of the points that he stress is "condition" vs. "position". We are already blessed "with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" (Eph 1:3). These blessings already belong to us positionally. However, conditionally, we are having to grow into these promises. This is the sanctificatin process. As we begin to walk in and grow in the Spirit, the things of this world begin fading away. We begin to appropriate more and more of what the Spirit has to offer us. So our condition begins to rise to meet our position.

This is how I am beginning to understand UR. Our position in Christ was bought and paid for by His blood. Even those who know nothing about their Savior already has this wonderful promise of position awaiting them. Their condition however is such that they have no understanding of their position and so have not yet begun to experience spiritual growth.

Hi TS...where do you think the statements come in such as shall be saved and others indicating (to me) a specific time of faith/belief being given, and then (as I see it) entering into the state of salvation/being saved?  In essence, the statements such as the jailor was told to do then he would be saved?

I tend to think of the "blessed with all spiritual blessings" pertaining to those currently saved... :dontknow:

P.S.  I do think for us UR'ers this is an area that's a little hard to understand...I think I'll do a search for more verses that indicate X occurs, then Y and Z...(all still a gift of God).

Here's several verses that indicate to me that there's a "this happens", then one is saved...rather than all are already saved and just don't yet know it.  I know that's a popular POV in UR, but I personally don't think it's accurate.
 
whosoever believeth in him will not perish  John 3:16

as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  John 1:12

they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved  Acts 16:31


These two are especially interesting to me;  "were reconciled" and "now justified", yet still SHALL BE saved

being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved  Romans 5:9

we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  Romans 5:10


and a couple more;

if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.   Romans 10:9   That one especially seems to indicate "X occurs, then Y"...


Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved  10:13

even so in Christ shall [not already are] all be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)

Could the teaching of "all are already saved most just don't yet know it" stand in the way of someone actually believing and confessing, if they've been taught "you don't need to do that, you're already saved"?   :dontknow:   That's actually one of my concerns, that there could be some critical/crucial deception in this area. 

As a little example;  if a "Gospel of Inclusion" minister has Buddhists and Muslims "in full fellowship/acceptance" with them as a supposed part of the ecclesia, would they be more likely to think "I need Jesus", or "I'm OK because we're all one and all going to the same place anyway"?  I personally believe we are to witness and proclaim Jesus to them, not give them okey-dokey.  I believe I've read where Gary A. has some of those same concerns...regardless, these are mine.

Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2009, 06:53:20 PM
Chuckt, I would probably word it different myself to say that all are reconciled yet most are asleep. And what we are saying is that each man in his order will be SAVED FROM their sleep/sin now that they have been reconciled.

yes you are right, because salvation entails knowledge of it, thanks.

chuckt

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 26, 2009, 05:39:17 AM
the universalist books/artices ive read so far say that everyone is saved in one sense yet in another sense needs to be saved in a process. So I guess Im just missing something


whatever, I dont know whats true anymore

When I was a ETer, I always equated hell with being saved and unsaved. So I was always taught that I GOT saved, when I believed in Christ, then I could be sanctified as an important side benefit. It was easy for people to debunk hell for me because it's pretty obvious how false it is. However, what was not so easy was to realign my concept of salvation. I was so used to focusing on salvation as a PAST event that it took years to understand what the Bible teaches about it.

What I have seen in UR, and I went this way too for a moment, is that since we are so used to viewing salvation from a one-time past perspective, some folks tend to mix reconciliation up with salvation, thereby keeping salvation in the past tense, and removing the Biblical mandate to "walk in steps of faith" to be righteous.

But now, after years of study, reasoning, and head scratching, I have come realize that sanctification and salvation are not separate concepts. Sanctification is the process of salvation, and salvation is today. This is why Paul says "He that endureth to the end shall be saved." That rings true to me because I now know that enduring to the end is what salvation from sin is all about (ie not returning to Egypt/the mind of the flesh).

I always try to remember this:

Mat 1:21
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from (Gk- "apo) their sins.

That word "from" is from "apo." That means "away" and Strong's notes that it is usually used to denote separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc. In other words, Jesus is named Jesus (Jehovah saves) because he will save his people away from their sins. He will cause them to be separated, or depart, or cease, or reverse from their sins. That is an active connotation rather than a passive one that says they are already "ceased from sin" when they are not.

With the above mission statement verse dealing with salvation, it is impossible to say that someone is reversed, or departed or ceased from sin when they are still in slavery. What happens in certain UR camps is that they confuse RECONCILIATION with SALVATION which leads them to believe in a passive form of salvation.

They will say that because God is not imputing sin to mankind, then he is AUTOMATICALLY also imputing righteousness. This is a false dilemma: which is when you say that A does not apply, therefore B is the only other option, when there is a whole alphabet of options. Just because God is not counting up men's sins by the law, does not mean he is counting them up as righteous. Again, God simply removed the partition that separated man from being able to be saved away from sin. That is reconciliation, not salvation.

This salvation starts with "his people." Eventually, when God is all in all, "his people" will be all.

Ninja, not sure if you would be interested, but I have done much research on this topic and wrote a piece about it.

http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.htm

willieH: Hi NW777...   :cloud9:

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on June 26, 2009, 05:39:17 AM
the universalist books/artices ive read so far say that everyone is saved in one sense yet in another sense needs to be saved in a process. So I guess Im just missing something


whatever, I dont know whats true anymore

We are ALL "saved in a process" bro... As Seth has noted, sin remains even though we KNOW CHRIST...  We, with God, must ENDURE the process, which includes the process of "SUFFERING" while in this life...

IN that suffering do we follow HIM -- Heb 2:10 --

You are either called to walk in good works (which are the "works" of CHRIST, IN you = righteousness) or, ...you are not. 

The Jews (God's own people), must WAIT their "turn"  to "know" Him -- Rom 11:25 -- for even though they were FIRST "chosen" to have FAITH and walk in it, via Abraham... they are to be LAST concerning the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST...

If God is calling you to walk in the FAITH of CHRIST... which is the combination of the TWO, then you shall walk accordingly as it is written -- Eph 2:11 -- and in that "calling" shall your walk occur...

In either case, NW... you will be saved, so try as you are able to "lose" your anxiety bro, and LIVE as you are called... (which I believe is CHRIST)

Remember this... There is NOTHING you can DO to "gain" Salvation -- Eph 2:8-9 -- the same is true in the opposite... there is NOTHING that YOU can DO to "lose it" either... for CHRIST ...IS... the Savior of ALL.  :boogie: 

And NOT even ONE of our "works" can be considered as the means BY WHICH we were "saved"... except CHRIST "DO" the work -- Psalms 127:1 -- Psalms 102:16 --  The house is BUILT by GOD, ...not man.

Man "builds" BABYLON...

Quote from: jabcat on June 26, 2009, 08:55:34 AM
Here's several verses that indicate to me that there's a "this happens", then one is saved...rather than all are already saved and just don't yet know it.  I know that's a popular POV in UR, but I personally don't think it's accurate.
 
whosoever believeth in him will not perish  John 3:16

as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  John 1:12

they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved  Acts 16:31


These two are especially interesting to me;  "were reconciled" and "now justified", yet still SHALL BE saved

being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved  Romans 5:9

we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  Romans 5:10


and a couple more;

if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.   Romans 10:9   That one especially seems to indicate "X occurs, then Y"...


Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved  10:13

even so in Christ shall [not already are] all be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)

Could the teaching of "all are already saved most just don't yet know it" stand in the way of someone actually believing and confessing, if they've been taught "you don't need to do that, you're already saved"?   :dontknow:   That's actually one of my concerns, that there could be some critical/crucial deception in this area. 

As a little example;  if a "Gospel of Inclusion" minister has Buddhists and Muslims "in full fellowship/acceptance" with them as a supposed part of the ecclesia, would they be more likely to think "I need Jesus", or "I'm OK because we're all one and all going to the same place anyway"?  I personally believe we are to witness and proclaim Jesus to them, not give them okey-dokey.  I believe I've read where Gary A. has some of those same concerns...regardless, these are mine.

For the longest time, I seemed like I stood just about alone regarding this, but thankfully, I am starting to see the call to repentance and faith in our Lord Jesus that's mandated in Luke 24, Acts 17, Acts 20, and various other places start to become increasingly common among UR folks that are sharing the Gospel.  And Matthew 28 says that the nations are to be taught to observe all things which Jesus taught.  I believe it's page 180 in the Hope Beyond Hell book that's got the altar call on it.  And I've seen the call to embrace His Lordship on the God's Truth For Today website as well.  Some have tried to say that the repentance part was only mandated of Israel, but I believe it can be argued that St. Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles and he's emphasizing it among Gentiles in Acts 17 and Acts 20.  And I believe it can be further Biblically argued that Luke's Gospel was written for as much a Gentile mind as a Jewish one, and that Gospel closes with repentance being taught in His Name to all nations. 

Mark's Gospel begins with the call to repentance as the beginning of Jesus' Gospel. And again, Luke 24 says to preach this to all nations.  And Luke's Gospel in that 24th chapter says that this must be fulfilled as something prophesied about Him in the Law, Prophets, and Psalms as to what would be preached in His Name in all nations.  So, it's not only a blatant disregard for the Gospel for someone claiming to preach it not to, but it's a total disregard regarding God's Written Judgments that we're supposed to be executing.  Judgment day is everytime you share the Gospel with someone, if that helps to clarify that for anyone or to give them more food for thought.  Judgment, chastisement, exhortation, edification, comfort, instruction in righteousness, and equipping for every single good work comes from the preaching of the Gospel.  So, what Hagee calls "sloppy agape" Biblically honestly will burn in the deepest Hell with Hitler and others because of the warnings in Paul's, James's, Peter's, and Jude's writings to those that would be ministers of the Gospel Dispensation.  Biblical doctrine is a sacred trust and we must be faithful stewards of the mysteries of God, and we must hold back nothing that would be profitable to our hearers.

Amen Martin.  I know about feeling like you're standing alone, I can feel a little lonely too  :bigGrin:.  Still, I just don't believe we're "all saved in a process",  "it's just being revealed, etc.".  I'm afraid there's some subtle deception in that area.

IMO, the NT is clear that there is a specific time when faith is given INDIVIDUALLY to believe.  Not of our works, it's God's works through and in us...but not some general declaration and all we've got to do is accept that we're OK.  The NT is full of "believe, receive, call, call upon, confess" etc...again, not us doing it or attaining it in any way, rather God choosing who and when, and empowering/providing the faith...but still, each and every time, a specific visitation and divine appointment between each person and Jesus the Messiah.

willieH: Hi James... :hithere:

How areya bro?  Well, I hope...  :friendstu:

Quote from: jabcat on June 26, 2009, 08:55:34 AM
Here's several verses that indicate to me that there's a "this happens", then one is saved...rather than all are already saved and just don't yet know it.  I know that's a popular POV in UR, but I personally don't think it's accurate.
 
whosoever believeth in him will not perish  John 3:16

as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  John 1:12

they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved  Acts 16:31


These two are especially interesting to me;  "were reconciled" and "now justified", yet still SHALL BE saved

being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved  Romans 5:9

we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  Romans 5:10


and a couple more;

if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.   Romans 10:9   That one especially seems to indicate "X occurs, then Y"...


Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved  10:13

even so in Christ shall [not already are] all be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)

That we are TIME BOUND beings, ...time oriented terms must be used in communicating WITH us... If God spoke from HIS ETERNAL platform, how could we as FINITES, "reason" with Him?  He DID speak from time to time in ETERNAL terms, just to show where He really IS and where we are really BOUND to BE... but for the moment, we ARE ...IN TIME... and thus the "shall's, will-be's, etc. appear in the dialogue...  :dontknow:

Quote from: jabcat on June 26, 2009, 08:55:34 AMCould the teaching of "all are already saved most just don't yet know it" stand in the way of someone actually believing and confessing, if they've been taught "you don't need to do that, you're already saved"?   :dontknow:   That's actually one of my concerns, that there could be some critical/crucial deception in this area.

It is honorable that you consider what you preach as Sacred, and wish to attach TRUTH to every word you use, as you speak to another of God... You are a GOOD SON James... but know this:

ALL that occurs is in the Hand of the Potter brother J... No matter WHAT we preach, HIS PURPOSE shall BE found WITHIN the PROCESS... for HE is WORKING ALL THINGS, according to the counsel (advisement) of His WILL -- Eph 1:11

Quote from: jabcat on June 26, 2009, 08:55:34 AMAs a little example;  if a "Gospel of Inclusion" minister has Buddhists and Muslims "in full fellowship/acceptance" with them as a supposed part of the ecclesia, would they be more likely to think "I need Jesus", or "I'm OK because we're all one and all going to the same place anyway"?

GOD is NOT PARTIAL to ANY human being... so ALL partake according to the accomplishment of HIS PURPOSE and WILL, which is that NONE PERISH -- John 3:16 -- 2 Pet 3:9

Don't think for a minute that you (by any words which come from you) shall "re-invent" the "faith" of a Buddhist or Muslim, with the name of JESUS...  Only YHVH can call them to His SON... and if YHVH calls, then YHVH gives ears to HEAR that call...  :dontknow:

They shall not equate your use of the name JESUS, to "we're all gonna end up in the same place anyway" kind of thinking...

If one is called to KNOW the TRUTH of UR... then GOD shall enable them to KNOW.  What OUR calling is, ...is to present GOOD NEWS to anyone we encounter, and LEAVE OUT the BAD NEWS which RELIGION has invented to "scare them into staying put"...

Quote from: jabcat on June 26, 2009, 08:55:34 AMI personally believe we are to witness and proclaim Jesus to them, not give them okey-dokey.  I believe I've read where Gary A. has some of those same concerns...regardless, these are mine.

If you join the work of God in simplicity... by proclaiming JESUS to them, then they shall either be prompted to inquire of details or not... according to ELECTION...

You and I do not determine who is ELECTED and who is not... We ALL walk a pathway which was placed before us to walk, and WALK it we shall...

To state to the one you are witnessing to, that GOD LOVES them beyond WORDS is TRUTH, and to state that GOD's Salvation is found IN JESUS, is also TRUTH... and to include REPENTENCE in that presentation is also TRUTH... the verses which provide the VISION that GOD shall save ALL, are still good texts to use in that witnessing... Use them, for they are GOOD NEWS... be confident in using them... If they were not meant to be used, they would not be there...

GOD shall, in calling that heart, avail questions IN that heart... as you use UR verses in your presentation of Him, to them, if it is intended they have questions...  What is wrong with preaching a LOVE that is ALL ENCOMPASSING?  Call me nuts, but as long as I have lived (63yrs), I have NEVER HEARD... any BETTER NEWS than this!

We are called to preach GOOD NEWS bro... and IN SUBMISSION to Him, take the GOSPEL (good news) to the world... leaving BEHIND the anxiety that wishes to impose upon us, CONCERN,  ...and in sincerity of heart, take the TRUTH to the world (as best we know it, relying on Him), ...leaving the results to Him...

"Concern" is worry, uncertainty, apprehension,  :mfrown: ...or even FEAR...  :mshock:

If CHRIST is working within... what is there to be "concerned" about?  And if we are "concerned" about the GOOD NEWS, ...is not DOUBT is sitting upon our doorstep?  How may we be effective in our witness of it?

I think we are thereby "getting in our own way"  :dontknow:   

Me & UR ---> :punish: <--- Me & MY "concern"  ...taking the GOSPEL to the world...

when we should be...

JESUS --->  :LoveH1: <--- Me & UR ...taking the GOSPEL to the world...

Don't get me wrong bro... I encourage you to be aggressively seeking more and more from God... but in the meanwhile, ...walk in confidence and Faith, that you ARE where you ARE, because God has you, ..."right where He wants you!"

Preach the TRUTH in PEACE bro, and without attaching FEAR to it... you will do just fine... PEACEFULLY and LOVINGLY allieviating those "concerns" which presently seem to be holding you within their grip...  :giveheart:

Hey Bro Willi.  I am in much agreement with what you say.  As I understand, we are called to be true witnesses, including much of what you said above and how you said it.  The (perhaps) place we may see a little differently is this (which I believe some do, at least in principle);  I believe there's a difference between slapping (just for the sake of discussion) a Muslim on the back, saying "brother, come on in...we're all God's children, you pray to Mohammed/Allah, I believe in praying to Jesus, but we're all already saved anyway, so don't you worry about it" vs. saying "I love you and I'd like to introduce you to Jesus, Savior of the world.  Scripture says if you'll call on His name, confess Him as Master, you'll be saved.  He died on the cross and rose again for your salvation.  Would you like to pray to Him now?  I'll pray with you".  If God chooses that individual for salvation in this lifetime, then they'll be saved.  If not, then they'll be saved later, all according to His timing and PLAN. 

Still His sovereignty, but our calling to spread the Good News, be a witness to be used to "bring them in"...as God sees fit.  Working through this bro, we're moving forward  :thumbsup:.

P.S.  I'm reminded of "how will they believe in Whom they haven't heard, and how will they hear [unless we tell them]?"  Don't be mislead.  I'm much better at talking about this than doing it  :thumbdown:, but it's still what I believe.  :mblush:

willieH: Hi James...  :happy3:

Quote from: jabcat on June 27, 2009, 12:11:52 AM
Amen Martin.  I know about feeling like you're standing alone, I can feel a little lonely too  :bigGrin:.  Still, I just don't believe we're "all saved in a process",  "it's just being revealed, etc.".  I'm afraid there's some subtle deception in that area.

I don't belittle you for your observation bro... but I do see as veiled, the notation that SUBTLE DECEPTION is in place for those who might see this a little differently than Martin and yourself...  :sigh: 

No worries, you guys are welcome to view this as you do, ...and I don't see this as offensive... I know we are all able to see only PARTIALLY that which is TRUTH... and are in the PROCESS  :reachout: ...of gaining a greater vision of it as we fervently continue to study and pray...

Something that is "BEING REVEALED" is a PROCESS!  ...As man seeks scientifically to observe the world in which he lives... ALL KNOWLEDGE it accumulates as time goes on and study + research continues,  ...ALREADY IS knowledge to GOD... yet science moves ahead, one step at a time... and learns IN a PROCESS, what GOD (already) Eternally KNOWS...

When a child is born, he will not jump up to his feet... he will (eventually) crawl, then (eventually)  topple over, and eventually IN the process of WALKING, ...learn to do so... 

EVENTUALLY marks the manifestation of a PROCESS... step 1, ...then step 2, ...then step 3, etc. = a PROCESS

The REVELATION of JESUS is not something that comes to ANYONE, ...ALL at ONCE, even though it IS as it IS and never changes -- Heb 13:8 -- Its process occurs according to GOD... and is AVAILED to us, a little at a time, ...piece by piece -- 1 Cor 13:9-12 -- Do you KNOW as you are KNOWN?  Is that which is COMPLETE, arrived in our TIME and not in Paul's?

Unless we NOW have ALL the ANSWERS... then our "KNOWLEDGE" of JESUS CHRIST is INCOMPLETE... and therefore is still IN a PROCESS of ...being COMPLETED...

Quote from: jabcat on June 27, 2009, 12:11:52 AMIMO, the NT is clear that there is a specific time when faith is given INDIVIDUALLY to believe.  Not of our works, it's God's works through and in us...but not some general declaration and all we've got to do is accept that we're OK.  The NT is full of "believe, receive, call, call upon, confess" etc...again, not us doing it or attaining it in any way, rather God choosing who and when, and empowering/providing the faith...but still, each and every time, a specific visitation and divine appointment between each person and Jesus the Messiah.

Again, these are observations from a TIME oriented platform... GOD ...IS... All in ALL... this has yet to be, manifest IN TIME... what ALREADY IS, a FACT in ETERNITY... GOD changes NOT!

So that which HE IS... He has ALWAYS BEEN, and "shall" ALWAYS BE (for "time" oriented stipulators)

But the TRUTH from ETERNAL perspective ...IS... that GOD has never EVER, ..."ALWAYS been" or,  ..."ALWAYS will be"... He ALWAYS ...IS...

"Always Been" & "Always will be" are ETERNAL condescensions to accomdate our limited, finite, and "time-oriented", minds.

:Peace: bro...

Bro Willi, the veiled statement opens an interesting piece of this discussion, IMO.  Because as I "see" it  :laughing7:, we're all veiled to some extent(s).  So much of what you say may be revealed, some of it still veiled to a degree, and same for me.  I have been influenced by deceit, I think we all have (didn't most of us believe in ET?).   So I'm not sure that necessarily my saying I believe there's some deception in this area is a veiled statement.  Maybe it is, or maybe the ones stating what I believe to be influenced by deception are the ones that are veiled  :coolsmile:.   I think that's why we all, especially ME...and not always very good at it... need to be open to input and still able to learn, including God moving us away from things that are not accurate about Him or His ways.

So, we each present our understanding, and God will sort it out, revealing as He sees fit.  It's His PLAN and we're the participants  :thumbsup:.

Jabcat (is it James?)

I definitely see what you are saying, and WillieH too. From the perspective shared in (I think) Romans 4, God is calling that which is not as though it is, we can rest assured that all is done, yet is being done. We can have peace in that AS we do the work of sharing Christ. Paul was so urgent to share the Promise of the Spirit with people that he became "all things to all people, so that he could save some." Of course he means "I, yet not I" when he talks about saving them.

I do agree with what you say though. Nobody sees the father apart from Christ. If we are to share the teaching that the gateway to life is narrow and the gatway to being lost is wide, then we should do it and accept our beatings for Christ (for our decidedly non-ecumenical behavior). Either that, or rejoice that they have come to Christ, rather than Bhudda et al, so that they can have the oneness in the Spirit that sets them free.

willieH: Hi brother James... :hithere:

Quote from: jabcat on June 27, 2009, 12:42:52 AM
I believe there's a difference between slapping (just for the sake of discussion) a Muslim on the back, saying "brother, come on in...we're all God's children, you pray to Mohammed/Allah, I believe in praying to Jesus, but we're all already saved anyway, so don't you worry about it" vs. saying "I love you and I'd like to introduce you to Jesus, Savior of the world.

Scripture says if you'll call on His name, confess Him as Master, you'll be saved.  He died on the cross and rose again for your salvation.  Would you like to pray to Him now?  I'll pray with you".  If God chooses that individual for salvation in this lifetime, then they'll be saved.  If not, then they'll be saved later, all according to His timing and PLAN.

I'll pause this for a moment to comment... I do not believe that CHRIST intended us to "rectify" the religions of the world by bringing them to Christianity...  He sends us to the world, to preach the GOOD NEWS to those who are willing to listen... If they are willing, then HE is giving them ears to hear, and in fact is in the process of "DRAGGING them" to that witness...

If you are discussing JESUS with another, and he/she introduces to you that he/she is firmly against Christianity, because he/she is a "Muslim"... then this severs the conversation... 

Do YOU think this "Muslim" can convince you of ALLAH?  Of course he/she cannot!  So why would we insist, or even get into the details of UR with them?  They have their own vision of God which shall not be moved by any amount of insistence...

There is no need to insist JESUS upon one who is of another Religion... God does the calling brother... and it is not up to us to insist JESUS upon one who "believes" an alternative to Him...

Quote from: jabcat on June 27, 2009, 12:42:52 AM
Still His sovereignty, but our calling to spread the Good News, be a witness to be used to "bring them in"...as God sees fit.  Working through this bro, we're moving forward  :thumbsup:.

I have been in both scenarios... witnessing to the "religious" and to the "athiest/agnostic" community as well...

I have found that there is more open-mindedness in the latter...  :sigh:

The "religions" of the world are existent because GOD has deemed they exist.  And we are to be about the GOOD NEWS... not about redefining GOD to another who is already immersed in religions outside Christianity.

It is better to spend your witness to a person who doesn't believe there is a God or that isn't sure...  For in THIS area (IMO) are the "hedges and highways"...  Those who "believe" in ALLAH or BUDDHA or SATAN STAN... (I call "satan" STAN these days  :pointlaugh:)  are completely convinced of them and no amount of "back patting" or slick dialogue, is going to change their belief in these false "gods"...

It is YHVH who calls... and as witnesses, all we are and can ever hope to be, ...are "Guitars" in the EXPERT hand of the Chief Musician... 

He plays His HOLY MUSIC,  :violin: ...exclusively for a "LISTENING" :grouppray: audience...  :angelharp: 

:Peace: bro...

Yes, very good Seth.  I also see what Brother Willi's saying, and much agree.  I also didn't mean to indicate that I don't believe there is a process at all, in many ways God's whole PLAN is a process.  I just believe we are individually given faith to believe, and then as believers called to witness to as much truth as we are given.  IMO, that's a big part of why God does save and keep us, ensuring we "endure to the end", to use us for His purposes and His glory.  (Plus He loves us a whole bunch  :HeartThrob:).

Willi, yes, I don't disagree with you.  I do agree.  By what I said I never intended for anyone to think I mean "insist".  That's not what I said nor meant.  But I either say/indicate "I'm OK you're OK, Buddha's a cool guy, you're already saved", or I say "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life...no man comes to the Father but by Him.  If you call upon His name you'll be saved".  And I INSIST that's what I'm saying  :bigGrin:.

James,
I agree with what you are saying about the message. The message is not that we are all saved through Allah, Bhudda etc. We preach Christ and him alone, and if they accept they accept and if not, then not. I agree with what you were saying.

You are getting to the heart of the issue. The message is not "you are already saved so keep doing what you are doing." The message is "be saved away from sin by Christ." The Bible does not call it the "Gospel of UR." It calls it the Gospel of the Kingdom. Paul says that the kingdom is peace in the Spirit and service to Christ. That is the Gospel we share: The Gospel of the Kingdom.

:thumbsup:

Thanks Seth, and yes, it's James.  The jab part of jabcat is my initials...the "cat" part is from back in the day  :mwink:.

Quote from: Seth on June 27, 2009, 01:38:30 AM
Jabcat (is it James?)

Paul was so urgent to share the Promise of the Spirit with people that he became "all things to all people, so that he could save some." Of course he means "I, yet not I" when he talks about saving them.

I do agree with what you say though. Nobody sees the father apart from Christ. If we are to share the teaching that the gateway to life is narrow and the gatway to being lost is wide, then we should do it and accept our beatings for Christ (for our decidedly non-ecumenical behavior). Either that, or rejoice that they have come to Christ, rather than Bhudda et al, so that they can have the oneness in the Spirit that sets them free.

Yes, amen.  I rejoice in the following statement you made;  "..accept our beatings for Christ (for our decidedly non-ecumenical behavior)"...

If I could quickly summarize my thoughts, it would be a) people still need to get saved, to place their trust in Jesus as their Savior,  b) only God decides who He will give that faith to believe (and no one "chooses" God before He chooses them and empowers them individually, specifically to believe),  3) we are called to tell people about Jesus and encourage (not insist/demand/guilt/scare, etc.) them to call on Him, and  d) assist them in any way God allows and enables us to do so.  Otherwise, as I understand and as you say, they enter in at the broad gate, and many may be saved there only "as by fire". 

Every single point a-d (even including point #3 :laughing7:) is sound to the very core.
:thumbsup:

If we add to it, WillieH's point that all is of him, that is where we get our peace if we get flogged in the synagogues (speaking metaphorically there). But the cross is an offense. The Gospel of the Kingdom says: Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, receive the Spirit, serve Christ.

 :gthumbsup:

#3 eh?   :doh:  silly, silly