Is David still in his grave?

[reFORMer]

Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee

"Falling short" is way too passive for what it seems you could say of yourself.  Let's see, according to your doctrine, gay is okay but the Bible is not.  And, everybody is in Christ, only, don't think of Chairman Mao or Hitler, because it is easier to believe that everybody is in Christ if you just don't think of the facts.  Maybe the USA will get a President who is in your Christ.  Of course, he would be if he was like Stalin or Dr. Mengele, just not if he believed in sin and righteousness according to the Bible.  But that is wrong thinking on my part.  I take you too literally.  Oh, and let's not forget there's no such thing as sin anymore.  That makes Jeffrey Dahmer's reported repentance and conversion before he was murdered in prison a delusion.  He really wasn't a sinner and should've been taught that it was just a matter of taste, his dining on the boys he slaughtered.

With such wonderful ideas as an alternative, why would I be so foolish as to choose to keep my Bible?

[Pierac]

Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee

"Falling short" is way too passive for what it seems you could say of yourself.  Let's see, according to your doctrine, gay is okay but the Bible is not.  And, everybody is in Christ, only, don't think of Chairman Mao or Hitler, because it is easier to believe that everybody is in Christ if you just don't think of the facts.  Maybe the USA will get a President who is in your Christ.  Of course, he would be if he was like Stalin or Dr. Mengele, just not if he believed in sin and righteousness according to the Bible.  But that is wrong thinking on my part.  I take you too literally.  Oh, and let's not forget there's no such thing as sin anymore.  That makes Jeffrey Dahmer's reported repentance and conversion before he was murdered in prison a delusion.  He really wasn't a sinner and should've been taught that it was just a matter of taste, his dining on the boys he slaughtered.

With such wonderful ideas as an alternative, why would I be so foolish as to choose to keep my Bible?

Indeed, many are called, but few chosen!

  :thumbsup::laughing7:
Paul

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee Damboise's II Reply is in bold Red Letter.


Lee

"Falling short" is way too passive for what it seems you could say of yourself.  Let's see, according to your doctrine, gay is okay(Any of the 640 Laws set up by Moses is not a Law for this gentile, But if you can find righteousness in Law then your a good Jew) but the Bible is not.(This is true because I don't need a book to be His Righteousness)  And, everybody is in Christ,(True) only, don't think of Chairman Mao or Hitler, (All will be in God in the end, sorry you don't believe) because it is easier to believe that everybody is in Christ if you just don't think of the facts.(facts according you your religious understanding apparently)  Maybe the USA will get a President who is in your Christ. (Still trying to figure out if your slant a black man, not sure yet.) Of course, he would be if he was like Stalin or Dr. Mengele, just not if he believed in sin and righteousness according to the Bible. (The Jewish-Christian interputation)  But that is wrong thinking on my part.  I take you too literally.  Oh, and let's not forget there's no such thing as sin anymore. (That is true to all the Angle of God that have cut down the tree of knowledge and feast of the tree of Life) That makes Jeffrey Dahmer's reported repentance and conversion before he was murdered in prison a delusion. (Just like everyone else's self re-enforced delusions)  He really wasn't a sinner and should've been taught that it was just a matter of taste, his dining on the boys he slaughtered. (He will be saved in dew time, sorry spelling isn't great.)

With such wonderful ideas as an alternative, why would I be so foolish as to choose to keep my Bible?

(That is only a question you can answer.)

I think I herd this stated this way "why preach the gospel if all will be saved anyway in the end" Oh those foolish people.
Indeed, many are called, but few chosen!(another book/lesson for the Jews)

  :thumbsup::laughing7:
Paul

These really are the type of comments I would think would come from a calvinist, or Baptist family tree of origins .

Lee Damboise II

[Paul Hazelwood]

Ok, the above post may be accurate in more than one way, although I don't believe that the falling short part applies. It really is too limited time and space here to explain the whole misdirection and lies told to God's children about being sinners.  of one I am not. "falling short"

Lee

That is because you view Falling short as a negative as religion has taught.   It is simply a fact and nothing else.   You are still in human form, if you believe you are equal to God as Jesus said he was equal,  then you are deceived.

God is telling us to see facts and accept them.  You are not equal to God yet,  accept it.

Simple.

Scripture contains those phrases, it is the interpretation of their translation that gets all jacked up.

[Chris]

WRITTEN WHEN I BELIEVED IN "SOUL SLEEP". You can probably still find it posted in the BT forum somewhere, if it still goes back that far.



The condition of the dead:


The body goes to the grave:

Gen 3:19: In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.

Psa 104:29: You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Ecc 3:20: All go to one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust again.

Ecc 12:7: then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.



The spirit goes back to the Father:

       
Mat 27:50: And crying again with a loud voice, Jesus released His spirit.

Luk 23:46: And crying with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit. And when He had said this, He breathed out the spirit.

Joh 19:30: Then when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, It is finished! And He bowed His head and gave up the spirit.

Act 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.



It is the union of the body and spirit that makes us a living soul:


Gen 2:7: And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.



The spirit is apart from the body and soul: (as stated earlier)


Psa 104:29: You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.

Ecc 12:7: then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.



Our consciousness does NOT lie in the spirit; it resides in the soul, which goes to "sleep" when we die: (THERE IS NO PART OF US THAT IS IMMORTAL!! Hence the need for a Saviour and the resurrection which comes through Him – He being the first-fruit.)


Deu 31:16:  And Jehovah said to Moses, Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers.

2Sa 7:12:  And when your days are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall come out of your bowels. And I will make his kingdom sure.

1Ki 1:21:  And it will be, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, my son Solomon and I shall be offenders.

Job 7:21:  And why do You not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? For now I shall sleep in the dust, and You shall seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 14:12:  so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they shall not awake, nor be awakened out of their sleep.

Psa 13:3:  Look! Answer me, O Jehovah my God; enlighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death,

Dan 12:2:  And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



There is no consciousness in the grave:


Ecc 9:5: For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6: Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; nor do they any longer have a part forever in all that is done under the sun.

Ecc 9:10: Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave where you go.

Job 7:9:  As the cloud falls and vanishes away, so he who goes down to the grave shall come up no more.

Job 10:19:  I should have been as though I had not been; I would have been carried from the womb to the grave.

Job 14:13:  Who will grant that You would hide me in the grave, that You would keep me secret, until Your wrath is past, that You would set me a fixed time and remember me?

Psa 6:5:  For in death there is no memory of You; in the grave who shall give You thanks?

Psa 31:17:  Let me not be ashamed, O Jehovah; for I have called on You; Let the wicked be ashamed; let them be silent in the grave.

Psa 49:14:  Like sheep they are appointed to the grave; death shall reign for them; and the upright shall have the rule over them in the morning; and their form is for rotting; the grave is their home.

Psa 88:5:  free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom You remember no more; and by Your hand they are cut off.

Psa 89:48:  What man lives and never sees death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Isa 38:18:  For the grave cannot praise You, death can not rejoice in You; they who go down into the pit cannot hope for Your truth.



The saints do not come back 'with Him'; He comes to resurrect the dead – to call them out of their graves:


Eze 37:13:  And you shall know that I am Jehovah when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.

Eze 37:14:  And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I Jehovah have spoken and have done it, says Jehovah.

Joh 5:28: Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,"



[They are yet still IN the graves – the time is COMING; it is not PAST.]


Joh 5:29: and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.



They do not hear and answer the call – UNTIL the resurrection... the dead, in the graves, are dead. They are redeemed FROM THE GRAVE, from death.


Hos 13:14:  I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, where are your plagues; O Grave, where is your ruin! Repentance shall be hidden from My eyes.

Psa 6:4:  Return, O Jehovah, return; deliver my soul; save me for Your mercy's sake.

Psa 30:3:  O Jehovah, You have brought up my soul from the grave; You have kept me alive, so that I should not go down to the Pit.

Psa 49:15:  But God will redeem my soul from the hand of the grave; for He will take me. Selah.

Dan 12:2:  And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Please also note (immediately above) that He is coming to redeem and resurrect our SOUL, not our body. Our bodies will NOT be resurrected:


1Co 15:42-45:  So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;

it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.

1Co 15:50:  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.



Christ is SPIRIT and we will "see Him as He is" and we will be LIKE HIM!!


1Co 15:46:  But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

Joh 3:6:  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Joh 3:2:  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Joh 4:24:  God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.



Christ does not a have a body of flesh and bone – glorified or otherwise. He may have appeared to His disciples in 'the flesh':


Luk 24:39-40:  Behold My hands and My feet, that I am He! Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see Me have. And when He had spoken this, He showed them His hands and feet.




But He did this to prove His resurrection and because they were yet carnal, still having doubts:


Luk 24:41  And while they still did not believe for joy, and wondered, He said to them, Have you any food here?

Joh 20:25  The other disciples therefore said to him, We have seen the Lord. But he said to them, Unless I shall see the print of the nails in His hands, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, I will not believe.

Joh 20:26  And after eight days the disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said, Peace to you!

Joh 20:27  Then He said to Thomas, Reach your finger here and behold My hands; and reach your hand here and thrust it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.

Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!



But please remember:


1Co 15:50:  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

As far as what Paul said; Paul did NOT say: 'to be absent from the body IS to be present with Christ.'


2Co 5:8

(ASV)  we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

(KJV+) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

(MKJV)  then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.

(YLT)  we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.




Paul continually spoke of his faith and hope in the resurrection. He aspired to a 'better' resurrection (to be among the 'chosen' in the first resurrection).

May we always remember these words:


Rom 8:38:  For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39:  nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



The problem with this is all of the things that I was MISSING, even though I THOUGHT I was examining "everything" that related to "the body", "the soul" and "the spirit". But I wasn't. I missed a great many things, probably the most important of which is to compare SPIRITUAL things WITH SPIRITUAL.  :mblush:

[sheila]

   Resurrection of the body of Christ is the third Heaven and

  earth..the third DAY of PERFECTION..even the Sabbath. The

Upward call is the resurrection to perfection of the saints.

  Perfect in their generation. The third heaven is the perfect

translation of the word of God..Law and Prophets fulfilled and

translated perfectly in resurrected body of Christ.[Perfect in

understanding]


   Noah was perfect amidst a crooked generation and was

delivered. Christ was perfect amidst a crooked generation and

was delivered of death, as so too, those hidden in Him. He had

perfect understanding and fulfilled the law


  Perfect understanding amidst a crooked generation of those

who reign with Christ. This is what our Father is establishing in

the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. A perfect

understanding[NEW HEAVEN] of the MIND/WILL/HEART of God

on earth[New Earth] This is the promised Kingdom of Christ


   Three Days..third day resurrection...was, am..is to come

the 'is to come' is the third day  and IT IS UPON US


  There is the GOOD...Acceptable  and PERFECT WILL OF GOD

  our THREE heavens.Hebrews 9;12 When Christ came as high

priest of the GOOD things that are already here, he went

through the greater and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE THAT IS

NOT MAN-MADE, that is to say ,NOT A PART OF THIS CREATION


  Hebrews 12;28  Therefore since we are receiving a Kingdom

that can not be shaken,let us be thankful, and so worship God

ACCEPTABLY with reverence and awe


   the THIRD DAY...is  I AM RETURNING UNTO MY FATHER

  it is the Spirit returning unto God who gave it...it is the

abyssing of satan in the dust


Isaaih 52;1  Awake! Awake! O"Zion, clothe yourself with

strength[coming with power] Put on your garments of splendour

O Jerusalem the Holy city.The uncircumcized and defiled will not

enter you again[Rev 21;27] Shake off your dust, RISE UP,SIT

ENTHRONED.

   I saw the Holy city, New Jerusalem, COMING DOWN OUT OF

HEAVEN FROM GOD[they had to ascend first/come up here/

spirit return unto Father]


   Now this is the city that Abraham was seeking..a city not

built by human hands...and because this city/promise was not

fulfilled in His Day[All these people were  still living by faith

when they died.They did not receive the things promised; they

only saw and welcomed them from the distance].And they

admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.....instead

they were longing for a better country- a heavenly one


   John 2;19    DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND I WILL RAISE IT

   AGAIN IN THREE DAYS


   LORD OF THE SABBATH Luke 6;40  A student is not above his

teacher, but everyone who is FULLY TRAINED[instructed] WILL

BE LIKE HIS TEACHER[PREPARED}


  John 16;12,13  I have MUCH MORE TO SAY TO YOU, MORE

THAN YOU CAN NOW BEAR  But when he, the spirit of truth

comes, he will guide you into all truth[Acts 11;10]

2 Cor 12;2....he heard inexpressible things, things that man is

not permitted to tell[only revealed by spirit/tell no man]


  Paradise/parousia/presence/return of Christ...third heaven.

SOE VIII V3  And in the midst of the trees that of life,

IN THAT PLACE WHEREON THE LORD RESTS[Sabbath] when

He goes up into paradise, and this tree is of ineffable goodness

and frangrance......v4  IT'S ROOT IS IN THE GARDEN AT THE

EARTH'S END.....AND PARADISE IS BETWEEN CORRUPTIBILITY

AND INCORRUPTIBILITY.[ meet the Lord in the air]1 Cor 15;52

Resurrection of Christ...resurrection body...in a flash in the

twinkling of an eye, at the Last trumpet.

  Rev 16;17  The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air

   [Ephesians 2;1,2  Made ALIVE IN CHRIST...as for you, YOU

  WERE DEAD   in your transgressions and sins,

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this

world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who

is now at work in those who are disobediant


  Rev 11;14  The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom

of our Lord and of His Christ


  Isaaih 52;10  The Lord will lay bare His holy arm in the sight

of all the nations, AND ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH WILL SEE

THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD

[Livelystone]

Christ will have a body of flesh and bones to walk on earth with............ it will be the bodies of those who have been born again into the image and likness of God just like Jesus was.

Blessings

Doug

[Beloved Servant]

and is, and is to come.
Holy Holy is He...  www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NN9hX61vhg&feature=related

[Beloved Servant]

We are His Mercy Seat!
Poised to pour out His love upon His Beloved Creation.

[reFORMer]

WRITTEN WHEN I BELIEVED IN "SOUL SLEEP". You can probably still find it posted in the BT forum somewhere, if it still goes back that far.

. . . . . . .omit. . . . . . .

Please also note (immediately above) that He is coming to redeem and resurrect our SOUL, not our body. Our bodies will NOT be resurrected:


1Co 15:42-45:  So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;

it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.

1Co 15:50:  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

I don't get the connection with some of your quoted verses.  Some of your statements aren't born out by the interspersed verses either.  Like this:  "...that He is coming to redeem and resurrect our SOUL, not our body. Our bodies will NOT be resurrected..." Is this meant generally or a specific view of one particular thread in Scripture?  I really have difficulty understanding why you would say such a thing at all and yet continue to use Scripture speaking of resurrection as if to prove there is no resurrection.  It is central to what Jesus accomplished, victory over death of His physical body.  It is central to the message of those who follow Jesus.  Paul understands it as...

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused.
14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith.
15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused.
16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused.
17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith -- you are still in your sins!
18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.
19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we.

Christ is SPIRIT and we will "see Him as He is" and we will be LIKE HIM!!


1Co 15:46:  But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

Joh 3:6:  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1Joh 3:2:  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Joh 4:24:  God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.



Christ does not a have a body of flesh and bone – glorified or otherwise. He may have appeared to His disciples in 'the flesh':


Luk 24:39-40:  Behold My hands and My feet, that I am He! Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see Me have. And when He had spoken this, He showed them His hands and feet.

Just because we are spirit doesn't mean we don't have physical bodies.  It is similar with God.  He is Spirit; but, He has embodiment.  The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ according to the Scripture. "We are members of His body, flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones." (Ep 5:30)

But He did this to prove His resurrection and because they were yet carnal, still having doubts:

. . . . . . .omit. . . . . . .

This statement is so unlike the nature of Christ.  Pretending to have flesh to get them to believe He was resurrected!?  "They were carnal" you say.  So, God accomodates their carnality by making a deceptive appearance as if He had flesh!?  Guileful Jesus!?

I find it easy to just believe in the full placing of our physical nature into what it is to be born of God physically in resurrection, with the liberty of the glory in the physical dimension, full inheritors of authority over all things physical.

[sheila]

 I will insert this here, it is not my desire to muddle up

the threshing out of truth going on.

  At one time the spirit told me that I had an outer and inner

soul. Just the past few days been given understanding of what

was being declared to me. The soul that is sinning will die.


   All born in Adam lose their soul through Adam, those born of

Christ have Christs soul, Our soul is hidden in Him. The inner

man is the one renewed day by day, though the outward man

[soul] perish.

   He gave HIS SOUL A RANSOM FOR ALL, and POURED HIS

SOUL EVEN UNTO DEATH. When He took on the likeness of flesh

He joined Himself as one spirit to our souls. The regenerated

soul of mankind will raise up righteous offspring for the

deceased family of Adam, through the LIVING SPIRITUAL SON

      We all have first expierenced the soul that is sinning as an

inheritance from Adam. with the accompaning mind,spirit,heart

and corruption of it's flesh. And so too, in the regeneration we

will all inherit the accompanying mind spirit heart and

incorruptible body of Christ


  Matthew 10;28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but

can not kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can

destroy both soul and body in hell.

    my  :2c:

[Paul Hazelwood]

  Guileful Jesus!?

Scripture does have an intriguing verse along this line.


2C 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

[Chris]

I don't get the connection with some of your quoted verses.  Some of your statements aren't born out by the interspersed verses either.  Like this:  "...that He is coming to redeem and resurrect our SOUL, not our body. Our bodies will NOT be resurrected..." Is this meant generally or a specific view of one particular thread in Scripture?  I really have difficulty understanding why you would say such a thing at all and yet continue to use Scripture speaking of resurrection as if to prove there is no resurrection.  It is central to what Jesus accomplished, victory over death of His physical body.  It is central to the message of those who follow Jesus.  Paul understands it as...

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused.
14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith.
15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused.
16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused.
17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith -- you are still in your sins!
18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.
19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we.

And you think this passage it talking about a physical resurrection of a physical body? What about verse 16? Does it not say "if the dead are not BEING roused"? You think that Paul is speaking about some future physical resurrection here?

And while the scriptures do speak of "the redemption of our bodies" what is that "redemption" connected to? Is it not "the adoption of sons" and are we not THE BODY of Jesus Christ, after a sprititual truth? And do we not receive "the adoption of sons" when Christ is formed IN US - HERE?

And what does it mean when the scriptures say (in relation to "the spiritual body")  that GOD GIVES IT A BODY? You believe this means that that which has long-since decayed and returned to dust (that scripture says PROFITS NOTHING) is going to be "resurrected"?

Just because we are spirit doesn't mean we don't have physical bodies.  It is similar with God.  He is Spirit; but, He has embodiment.  The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ according to the Scripture. "We are members of His body, flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones." (Ep 5:30)

The fulness of the Godhead did dwell IN CHRIST (A MAN). Where is that "man" now? Was Christ not made A QUICKENING SPIRIT? Does He not now dwell IN US? How does He do that? Just "figuratively"? He's "really" sitting around somewhere in another world "in" His physical body, rather than "in" THE BODY that "we" are?  

This statement is so unlike the nature of Christ.  Pretending to have flesh to get them to believe He was resurrected!?  "They were carnal" you say.  So, God accomodates their carnality by making a deceptive appearance as if He had flesh!?  Guileful Jesus!?

Really??  :mshock:

Can you QUOTE ME as EVER having said ANYWHERE AT ANY TIME that "Jesus was pretending to have flesh"?   :laughing7:

Seriously, how does one "pretend" to have flesh?  :dontknow:

Did Christ not WALK this earth after His resurrection? Did His disciples not TOUCH HIS BODY OF FLESH AND BONES?

Did He not SAY: "handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have"?  :dontknow:

But He also left this physical realm, did He not?  :thumbsup:

I find it easy to just believe in the full placing of our physical nature into what it is to be born of God physically in resurrection, with the liberty of the glory in the physical dimension, full inheritors of authority over all things physical.

First of all, you are trying to correct a bunch of stuff that I specifically said that I do NOT BELIEVE anymore, wherein I also pointed out that there were MANY things that I "missed" at the time that the above was written (though I did not think so or know so at the time).

Secondly, I never said that we will not have physical bodies or live in a physical world. We may very well; but the scriptures DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT. We are told NOTHING about what "will be" after this life/world except that we will "forever be with Lord".

That being said, I still do not believe that THIS PHYSICAL BODY that I NOW HAVE is going to one day pop out of a physical grave. The flesh PROFITS NOTHING - it RETURNS TO DUST, from whence it came. How can it both "profit nothing" AND "be resurrected" at some future point in time?

Whatever "spirtiual body" we have is a body that scripture says GOD GIVES US, and to each seed it's own body.  :thumbsup:

Might that body be manifest PHYSICALLY, in a PHYSICAL world? YES!!

[Chris]

   Resurrection of the body of Christ is the third Heaven and

  earth..the third DAY of PERFECTION..even the Sabbath. The

Upward call is the resurrection to perfection of the saints.

  Perfect in their generation. The third heaven is the perfect

translation of the word of God..Law and Prophets fulfilled and

translated perfectly in resurrected body of Christ.[Perfect in

understanding]


   Noah was perfect amidst a crooked generation and was

delivered. Christ was perfect amidst a crooked generation and

was delivered of death, as so too, those hidden in Him. He had

perfect understanding and fulfilled the law


  Perfect understanding amidst a crooked generation of those

who reign with Christ. This is what our Father is establishing in

the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. A perfect

understanding[NEW HEAVEN] of the MIND/WILL/HEART of God

on earth[New Earth] This is the promised Kingdom of Christ


   Three Days..third day resurrection...was, am..is to come

the 'is to come' is the third day  and IT IS UPON US


  There is the GOOD...Acceptable  and PERFECT WILL OF GOD

  our THREE heavens.Hebrews 9;12 When Christ came as high

priest of the GOOD things that are already here, he went

through the greater and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE THAT IS

NOT MAN-MADE, that is to say ,NOT A PART OF THIS CREATION


  Hebrews 12;28  Therefore since we are receiving a Kingdom

that can not be shaken,let us be thankful, and so worship God

ACCEPTABLY with reverence and awe


   the THIRD DAY...is  I AM RETURNING UNTO MY FATHER

  it is the Spirit returning unto God who gave it...it is the

abyssing of satan in the dust


Isaaih 52;1  Awake! Awake! O"Zion, clothe yourself with

strength[coming with power] Put on your garments of splendour

O Jerusalem the Holy city.The uncircumcized and defiled will not

enter you again[Rev 21;27] Shake off your dust, RISE UP,SIT

ENTHRONED.

   I saw the Holy city, New Jerusalem, COMING DOWN OUT OF

HEAVEN FROM GOD[they had to ascend first/come up here/

spirit return unto Father]


   Now this is the city that Abraham was seeking..a city not

built by human hands...and because this city/promise was not

fulfilled in His Day[All these people were  still living by faith

when they died.They did not receive the things promised; they

only saw and welcomed them from the distance].And they

admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.....instead

they were longing for a better country- a heavenly one


   John 2;19    DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND I WILL RAISE IT

   AGAIN IN THREE DAYS


   LORD OF THE SABBATH Luke 6;40  A student is not above his

teacher, but everyone who is FULLY TRAINED[instructed] WILL

BE LIKE HIS TEACHER[PREPARED}


  John 16;12,13  I have MUCH MORE TO SAY TO YOU, MORE

THAN YOU CAN NOW BEAR  But when he, the spirit of truth

comes, he will guide you into all truth[Acts 11;10]

2 Cor 12;2....he heard inexpressible things, things that man is

not permitted to tell[only revealed by spirit/tell no man]


  Paradise/parousia/presence/return of Christ...third heaven.

SOE VIII V3  And in the midst of the trees that of life,

IN THAT PLACE WHEREON THE LORD RESTS[Sabbath] when

He goes up into paradise, and this tree is of ineffable goodness

and frangrance......v4  IT'S ROOT IS IN THE GARDEN AT THE

EARTH'S END.....AND PARADISE IS BETWEEN CORRUPTIBILITY

AND INCORRUPTIBILITY.[ meet the Lord in the air]1 Cor 15;52

Resurrection of Christ...resurrection body...in a flash in the

twinkling of an eye, at the Last trumpet.

  Rev 16;17  The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air

   [Ephesians 2;1,2  Made ALIVE IN CHRIST...as for you, YOU

  WERE DEAD   in your transgressions and sins,

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this

world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who

is now at work in those who are disobediant


  Rev 11;14  The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom

of our Lord and of His Christ


  Isaaih 52;10  The Lord will lay bare His holy arm in the sight

of all the nations, AND ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH WILL SEE

THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD

Beautiful!!!  :thumbsup:

[Chris]

I will insert this here, it is not my desire to muddle up

the threshing out of truth going on.

 At one time the spirit told me that I had an outer and inner

soul. Just the past few days been given understanding of what

was being declared to me. The soul that is sinning will die.


  All born in Adam lose their soul through Adam, those born of

Christ have Christs soul, Our soul is hidden in Him. The inner

man is the one renewed day by day, though the outward man

[soul] perish.

  He gave HIS SOUL A RANSOM FOR ALL, and POURED HIS

SOUL EVEN UNTO DEATH. When He took on the likeness of flesh

He joined Himself as one spirit to our souls. The regenerated

soul of mankind will raise up righteous offspring for the

deceased family of Adam, through the LIVING SPIRITUAL SON

     We all have first expierenced the soul that is sinning as an

inheritance from Adam. with the accompaning mind,spirit,heart

and corruption of it's flesh. And so too, in the regeneration we

will all inherit the accompanying mind spirit heart and

incorruptible body of Christ


 Matthew 10;28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but

can not kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can

destroy both soul and body in hell.

   my  :2c:

AMEN!!

The soul that sinneth IT SHALL DIE... and if ONE DIED FOR ALL then were ALL DEAD (in sin)!!

When sin is finished... it bringeth forth DEATH!!!  :mblush:

Praise be to Christ who is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!!!  :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

   Resurrection of the body of Christ is the third Heaven and

  earth..the third DAY of PERFECTION..even the Sabbath. The

Upward call is the resurrection to perfection of the saints.

  Perfect in their generation. The third heaven is the perfect

translation of the word of God..Law and Prophets fulfilled and

translated perfectly in resurrected body of Christ.[Perfect in

understanding]


   Noah was perfect amidst a crooked generation and was

delivered. Christ was perfect amidst a crooked generation and

was delivered of death, as so too, those hidden in Him. He had

perfect understanding and fulfilled the law


  Perfect understanding amidst a crooked generation of those

who reign with Christ. This is what our Father is establishing in

the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. A perfect

understanding[NEW HEAVEN] of the MIND/WILL/HEART of God

on earth[New Earth] This is the promised Kingdom of Christ


   Three Days..third day resurrection...was, am..is to come

the 'is to come' is the third day  and IT IS UPON US


  There is the GOOD...Acceptable  and PERFECT WILL OF GOD

  our THREE heavens.Hebrews 9;12 When Christ came as high

priest of the GOOD things that are already here, he went

through the greater and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE THAT IS

NOT MAN-MADE, that is to say ,NOT A PART OF THIS CREATION


  Hebrews 12;28  Therefore since we are receiving a Kingdom

that can not be shaken,let us be thankful, and so worship God

ACCEPTABLY with reverence and awe


   the THIRD DAY...is  I AM RETURNING UNTO MY FATHER

  it is the Spirit returning unto God who gave it...it is the

abyssing of satan in the dust


Isaaih 52;1  Awake! Awake! O"Zion, clothe yourself with

strength[coming with power] Put on your garments of splendour

O Jerusalem the Holy city.The uncircumcized and defiled will not

enter you again[Rev 21;27] Shake off your dust, RISE UP,SIT

ENTHRONED.

   I saw the Holy city, New Jerusalem, COMING DOWN OUT OF

HEAVEN FROM GOD[they had to ascend first/come up here/

spirit return unto Father]


   Now this is the city that Abraham was seeking..a city not

built by human hands...and because this city/promise was not

fulfilled in His Day[All these people were  still living by faith

when they died.They did not receive the things promised; they

only saw and welcomed them from the distance].And they

admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.....instead

they were longing for a better country- a heavenly one


   John 2;19    DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND I WILL RAISE IT

   AGAIN IN THREE DAYS


   LORD OF THE SABBATH Luke 6;40  A student is not above his

teacher, but everyone who is FULLY TRAINED[instructed] WILL

BE LIKE HIS TEACHER[PREPARED}


  John 16;12,13  I have MUCH MORE TO SAY TO YOU, MORE

THAN YOU CAN NOW BEAR  But when he, the spirit of truth

comes, he will guide you into all truth[Acts 11;10]

2 Cor 12;2....he heard inexpressible things, things that man is

not permitted to tell[only revealed by spirit/tell no man]


  Paradise/parousia/presence/return of Christ...third heaven.

SOE VIII V3  And in the midst of the trees that of life,

IN THAT PLACE WHEREON THE LORD RESTS[Sabbath] when

He goes up into paradise, and this tree is of ineffable goodness

and frangrance......v4  IT'S ROOT IS IN THE GARDEN AT THE

EARTH'S END.....AND PARADISE IS BETWEEN CORRUPTIBILITY

AND INCORRUPTIBILITY.[ meet the Lord in the air]1 Cor 15;52

Resurrection of Christ...resurrection body...in a flash in the

twinkling of an eye, at the Last trumpet.

  Rev 16;17  The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air

   [Ephesians 2;1,2  Made ALIVE IN CHRIST...as for you, YOU

  WERE DEAD   in your transgressions and sins,

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this

world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who

is now at work in those who are disobediant


  Rev 11;14  The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom

of our Lord and of His Christ


  Isaaih 52;10  The Lord will lay bare His holy arm in the sight

of all the nations, AND ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH WILL SEE

THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

I will insert this here, it is not my desire to muddle up

the threshing out of truth going on.

  At one time the spirit told me that I had an outer and inner

soul. Just the past few days been given understanding of what

was being declared to me. The soul that is sinning will die.


   All born in Adam lose their soul through Adam, those born of

Christ have Christs soul, Our soul is hidden in Him. The inner

man is the one renewed day by day, though the outward man

[soul] perish.

   He gave HIS SOUL A RANSOM FOR ALL, and POURED HIS

SOUL EVEN UNTO DEATH. When He took on the likeness of flesh

He joined Himself as one spirit to our souls. The regenerated

soul of mankind will raise up righteous offspring for the

deceased family of Adam, through the LIVING SPIRITUAL SON

      We all have first expierenced the soul that is sinning as an

inheritance from Adam. with the accompaning mind,spirit,heart

and corruption of it's flesh. And so too, in the regeneration we

will all inherit the accompanying mind spirit heart and

incorruptible body of Christ


  Matthew 10;28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but

can not kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the one who can

destroy both soul and body in hell.

    my  :2c:

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Some random verses about heart spirit soul and body

Mar 12:29-30  and Jesus answered him--`The first of all the commands is , Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;  and thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart(kardia), and out of thy soul(psuche), and out of all thine understanding, and out of all thy strength--this is the first command;


heart, kardia- highest seat of consciousness, the mercy seat "having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience/consciousness

The heart of man is wicked and utterly deceitful who can know it.

Repentence is a change of heart, no longer hiding, but rather coming to the light, confessing the hidden things of darkness and bringing them to the light.

Heb 4:12-13  For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.  Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

The separating/dividing of soul and spirit discerns(makes manifest) the thoughts and intentions(reigns) of the heart.

Acts 2:37 They were pierced in their hearts and cried out, "Men and brethren what must we do"


This has a lot to do with the conscience of man, which is connected to the heart.

Rom 2:14-16  For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts

A broken and a contrite heart O God you will not cast out

I dwell in the high and holy place and with the one who is of a broken and a contrite heart




The relationship between the heart, soul, spirit and body of man with the Spirit of God is an interesting one that I have been studying for years. There is so much written OT & NT. I don't have a lot of confidence in any of the dogmatic simplified positions I see, but that could be my ignorance. However, the subject matter is awesome and there is so much scripture that seems to contradict, or create paradox. My experience with paradoxeshas been that the true paradigm is revealed in a place beyond and usually inclusive of parts of all the polarizing arguments.

Rom 1:9  For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you,

Paul is aware of the distinction of his person in his own spirit

The spirit gives life the flesh profits nothing

God is a spirit and those who would serve Him must serve Him in spirit(pneuma) and in truth(noce, mind)

The spirit returns to God who gave it, returning to the Father of lights(phos manifestations, rays) with whom there is no variableness or shadow of turning.

Heb 12:22-24  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly(universal companionship) and church(ekkliesia) of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect (finished complete), and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


This universal companionship that we have come to, those who are already awakened from sleep, includes the spirits of those finished, complete-perhaps-tried in the fire as gold purified 7 times. These spirits seem to me to be more than just impersonal breaths of God, but rather individual and personal manifestations or rays.

Php 3:8-14  More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,  and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;   in order that I may attain to the resurrection(ex-anastasias, out ressurection-only time used in scripture) from the dead.  Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.  Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,  I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

I think this goal Paul was pressing into is a goal that not everyone reaches in their earthy sojourn, and one that is specifically rewarded, in some way, a "better resurection"(Hebrews 11:35), of the various "glories"(1 Cor 15:36-44) of the spiritual body of the resurrection. Perhaps the "spirits of righteous men(diakonos) made perfect(finished complete). This could be the firstr ressurection or not, the point being to attain to it, more than to obtain the gnosis of it.


The Lord our God is one and we were created in His image. God speaks of His heart, His soul, His spirit, His mind, and we are His body.

Also, I see the ark of the covenant as a picture of man. The mercy seat is the heart, it must be sprinkled so the spirit of God can come dwell between the wings of the cherubim, typological of the spirit of man(full of eyes and always praising), and the acacia wood box, made of that which grows from the earth and guilded(by of me gold tried in the fire) and in it the tablets of stone(word implanted which is able to save your souls) and the rod that budded(supernatural life from a dead stick) and the manna(bread of life, fellowship).

So what happens to the heart at death? I don't know for sure, but it seems like a relevant question. But the how and when isn't as important to me as the spiritual nature & substanceof the experience, like, "their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day....."
If a person was to take ALL the verses on the soul and the spirit and the heart and All the verses on death and sleep and look at them ALL together their might arise  possibilities we haven't commonly considered, but even then, it is clear that it is the depth and reality of our commitment to Him that is of the utmost importance.


Rom 1:8-12  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.  For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you,  always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you. For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other's faith, both yours and mine.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Soul Body Spirit     tid-bit...

From Lee Damboise II

                                     Soul-Body-Spirit
   Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul.  The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit.  There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body.  At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen ( or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical  locations, but rather a condition.
                                                 BODY

   When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn.11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job. 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc..., etc.)  The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is ( Mat. 28:6).  Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol ( Jonah 2:2).  Jonah was not "literally" in hell[ sheol ], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die.  I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception in side the fish resembled his knowledge of the word " sheol."
                                               SPIRIT
   When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:43, Psa. 104:24-30).  The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death.  Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21 ).  There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies.  The spirit "gives life."  No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be.  There are no exception.  If there are, where is the Scriptures?  A dead person cannot experience anything—not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a FABLED hell.  This is a serious thing.  Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of Faith is Sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, [ then it is a sin to teach It.


Bless all

[Chris]

Php 3:8-14  More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,  and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;   in order that I may attain to the resurrection(ex-anastasias, out ressurection-only time used in scripture) from the dead.  Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.  Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,  I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

I think this goal Paul was pressing into is a goal that not everyone reaches in their earthy sojourn, and one that is specifically rewarded, in some way, a "better resurection"(Hebrews 11:35), of the various "glories"(1 Cor 15:36-44) of the spiritual body of the resurrection. Perhaps the "spirits of righteous men(diakonos) made perfect(finished complete). This could be the firstr ressurection or not, the point being to attain to it, more than to obtain the gnosis of it.

Do you read that as Paul claiming that he, himself, HAD NOT "attained" unto "the resurrection of the dead"?

Or that he "counted it not"; therefore he strive for it, AS THOUGH he had not attained unto it?

[eaglesway]

   I read that there was something he had not yet attained to. I believe the "ex-anastatsias" refers to something like the first resurrection, "out resurrection from amongst the dead", or the "spirits of just men (diakonos) made perfect(finished, complete)". As long as we are in the body, we have not attained to it, we must press on towards the mark of the prize of the upward call of God in Christ, enduring till the end.
   I am sure Paul was absolutely confident in his eternal life. Every believer can rest in the full assurance of the hope of eternal life, set free from the fear of death that drives the flesh. I know my position is unpopular with some folks, but I also believe there are greater glories, greater stewardships, and a better resurrection that can be attained to for deeper service.(because you were faithful over little I will make you master over much).
   I think Paul had insight to this and he was "striving according to the masteries" for the prize, running with patience the race set before him- a race that is not over as long as you live in the body. This is the patience of the saints.
   "To him who overcomes I will give......" "Behold,I come quickly and my reward is with me..."
   
   For instance, James says, and Jesus reiterates through John in Revelation, the "crown of life for the one who endures under trial". This is a different result than the one who builds wood hay and stubble and "loses his reward, tho he himself will be saved, but so as through fire".

Rev 3:10  Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

I believe the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world to test those who live on earth is the great white throne judgement. Everyone who does not complete the course in this life may finish the course there.  I am sharing these ideas as one who sees through a glass darkly-  not setting it forth as doctrine.

[sheila]

 there is a certain 'poor man, whose wisdom saved a city.

  I have heard his voice and will share with you.


   The church is Lazarus that has been in the grave.Lazarus

  is resurrected just as the church has slept in the grave for 2000

  years.  John 11;11....  I go that I may awaken Him, Christ has

returned to awaken'resurrect His church. Lazarus means 'helped

of God' You realize they are helped with a little help in Daniel.


   In Rev the word written to the seven spirits in Asia[asia

   means/sunrise/resurrection.] He holds the keys to hades and

death and comes to release/resurrect.


   Luke 9;32  But Peter and they that were with him were

heavey in sleep...AND WHEN THEY WERE AWAKE THEY SAW

HIS GLORY AND THE TWO MEN THAT STOOD WITH HIM[also

remember the two men[angels] in the resurrected tomb.


   Now, we all that are awakened are due to be carried away to the

bosom position. The night came,when no man could work,and

the tares were sown while we slept[church 2000years 2 days in

grave].

   This is the spiritual resurrection that I am concerned with

  today. It is actually the only resurrection I am concerned

about, for you can't have any other to LIVE..everything else IS

DEATH.

   Dan 11;34  when they fall they

will receive a little help.

   The RESURRECTION IS OCCURRING AS HE  SPEAKS

   He called us forth from spiritual death in babylon/confusion

  that is the spiritual grave...He has prepared a place for us in

the Holy city New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, only the

spiritually righteous can enter into that promised place,even

the bosom position[breast/thigh portion High Preist's portion to

bring forth righteous offspring]5 wise virgins who enter

   All the kings of the earth[kings and priests] bring their glory

into it[it is the glory of kings to search out a matter/ the glory

of God to conceal a matter] These are the spiritual truth's

eternal treasures that the kings bring into the city.They have

overcome the lies through their king of Kings and found the

pearl in the feild] They overcome through the spirit the lies

and confusion of babylon, the spirit of truth has come..He who

is faithful and true rides in behalf of truth and righteousness

with victory. On His robe and on his thigh[offspring that issue

forth from his thigh] He has this NAME WRITTEN

  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

   Let me tell you something about the resurrection..IT IS HIS

  VOICE THAT CALLS YOU FORTH FROM THE GRAVE

   LISTEN TO HIM

[Chris]

   I read that there was something he had not yet attained to.

Then why does he say "I count it not"? If there is nothing to actually "count" to begin with? Why does he say to "as many as BE perfect" to "walk by the same rule"?

I believe the "ex-anastatsias" refers to something like the first resurrection, "out resurrection from amongst the dead", or the "spirits of just men (diakonos) made perfect(finished, complete)". As long as we are in the body, we have not attained to it, we must press on towards the mark of the prize of the upward call of God in Christ, enduring till the end.

Again, Paul talked of those who were 'already' perfect. And Jesus Christ told Martha (at the resurrection of Lazarus, when she said that she knew that she would see her brother again "at the resurrection at the last day") "I AM" the resurrection and the life. Didn't Paul strive to know the power OF HIS (THE FIRST) resurrection? Are we not "resurrected from the dead" by being found IN HIM, who IS "the resurrection and the life" who calls us (just as He did Lazarus) "out of the graves" (what Paul called "the body of this death"? A body that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "set on fire of hell")?

I am sure Paul was absolutely confident in his eternal life. Every believer can rest in the full assurance of the hope of eternal life, set free from the fear of death that drives the flesh. I know my position is unpopular with some folks, but I also believe there are greater glories, greater stewardships, and a better resurrection that can be attained to for deeper service.(because you were faithful over little I will make you master over much).

So "the hope of eternal life" is a hope that can never be realized "in this life"? Even though "the hope of glory" IS "Christ in you"? Didn't Paul say that believers HAVE eternal life? That they HAD PASSED from death unto life? And didn't Jesus say that those who LIVE and BELIEVE "shall never die"?

I think Paul had insight to this and he was "striving according to the masteries" for the prize, running with patience the race set before him- a race that is not over as long as you live in the body. This is the patience of the saints.
   "To him who overcomes I will give......" "Behold,I come quickly and my reward is with me..."

Yes, we must "endure to the end"; but isn't Jesus Christ THE END of our FAITH, He being the One through whom "salvation" comes? Paul said that the "rule" was to count not that we have attained unto it and to continue to strive for it, not as though we have "already attained", but how does that mean that we have not when Paul clearly speaks of those who "already be perfect" (though not counting himself)?

Could it be that Paul, like John the Baptist, was not willing to bear witness OF HIMSELF, as even Jesus Christ said that He could not bear witness OF HIMSELF (though He was one who DID bear witness of Himself... because THE FATHER, who was IN HIM, bore witness of Who He was)? Just as Christ bore witness of John, that He was Elijah who was to come, even though John said he was not? Just as Paul bore witness of others though not himself and just as Job refused to bear witness of himself, saying that to do so would only prove himself perverse?
   

For instance, James says, and Jesus reiterates through John in Revelation, the "crown of life for the one who endures under trial". This is a different result than the one who builds wood hay and stubble and "loses his reward, tho he himself will be saved, but so as through fire".

But not saved in this life, through the fiery trial that is to try us?

Rev 3:10  Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

And how do you reconcile that with the fact that we go through "a fiery trial" which is to try us? With the fact that Jesus Christ said "I am come to send fire on the earth"? That God sits "as a refiner's fire"? That we are saved "yet so as by fire"?

What is the difference between that which is "in the heavens" (ABOVE = LIFE) and that which is  "in the earth" (BENEATH = HELL = DEATH)? When it is not until His judgments are IN THE EARTH that the inhabitants OF THE EARTH shall LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS?

I believe the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world to test those who live on earth is the great white throne judgement. Everyone who does not complete the course in this life may finish the course there.  I am sharing these ideas as one who sees through a glass darkly-  not setting it forth as doctrine.

How do you reconcile that with the fact that Jesus said "I am come to send fire on the earth" and "NOW" is the judgment of this world (judged BY FIRE, yes?) with Heb 27 (which many, including myself at one time, claim says that judgment does not take place until after men physically die - though the passage is not about the death of "men" but the death OF CHRIST) which says that Christ came "ONCE TO DIE" (as it is appointed unto men) and "AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT"? 

And that Christ comes "the second time" unto them that look for him, without sin unto salvation? Are we not saved BY FAITH, through grace, receiving "the adoption of sons" (to wit, the redemption of our bodies) when Christ (the HOPE OF GLORY) is formed within us - delivering us from the child (in bondage under the law, differing nothing from a servant)? Isn't "this" what Paul "waited" for and what we are told to look for - HIS APPEARING? He who IS the resurrection and THE LIFE that is HID within us, we APPEARING WITH HIM (in glory = THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE) only after HE WHO IS OUR LIFE shall appear (IN US). Would this not be the manifestation of the sons of God? The "cloud" (of witnesses) through whom he "returns" so that "every eye" can see Him (though many SEE and PERCEIVE NOT)?   

[Chris]

there is a certain 'poor man, whose wisdom saved a city.

  I have heard his voice and will share with you.


   The church is Lazarus that has been in the grave.Lazarus

  is resurrected just as the church has slept in the grave for 2000

  years.  John 11;11....  I go that I may awaken Him, Christ has

returned to awaken'resurrect His church. Lazarus means 'helped

of God' You realize they are helped with a little help in Daniel.


   In Rev the word written to the seven spirits in Asia[asia

   means/sunrise/resurrection.] He holds the keys to hades and

death and comes to release/resurrect.


   Luke 9;32  But Peter and they that were with him were

heavey in sleep...AND WHEN THEY WERE AWAKE THEY SAW

HIS GLORY AND THE TWO MEN THAT STOOD WITH HIM[also

remember the two men[angels] in the resurrected tomb.


   Now, we all that are awakened are due to be carried away to the

bosom position. The night came,when no man could work,and

the tares were sown while we slept[church 2000years 2 days in

grave].

   This is the spiritual resurrection that I am concerned with

  today. It is actually the only resurrection I am concerned

about, for you can't have any other to LIVE..everything else IS

DEATH.

   Dan 11;34  when they fall they

will receive a little help.

   The RESURRECTION IS OCCURRING AS HE  SPEAKS

   He called us forth from spiritual death in babylon/confusion

  that is the spiritual grave...He has prepared a place for us in

the Holy city New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, only the

spiritually righteous can enter into that promised place,even

the bosom position[breast/thigh portion High Preist's portion to

bring forth righteous offspring]5 wise virgins who enter

   All the kings of the earth[kings and priests] bring their glory

into it[it is the glory of kings to search out a matter/ the glory

of God to conceal a matter] These are the spiritual truth's

eternal treasures that the kings bring into the city.They have

overcome the lies through their king of Kings and found the

pearl in the feild] They overcome through the spirit the lies

and confusion of babylon, the spirit of truth has come..He who

is faithful and true rides in behalf of truth and righteousness

with victory. On His robe and on his thigh[offspring that issue

forth from his thigh] He has this NAME WRITTEN

  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

   Let me tell you something about the resurrection..IT IS HIS

  VOICE THAT CALLS YOU FORTH FROM THE GRAVE

   LISTEN TO HIM

AMEN!!!!

LORD, LOOSE US from the bands OF DEATH!!!

TODAY {when we HEAR HIS VOICE and HARDEN NOT OUR HEARTS} shalt thou be WITH ME {THE TREE OF LIFE} IN PARADISE!!

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God .... Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest.....

AMEN!!! AMEN!!! AMEN!!!  :cloud9:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And a 3rd AMEN...... :thumbsup: