Is David still in his grave?

[Chris]

Ok, as promised, as discussion on Acts 2:29.

Bob (or anyone) I wasn't sure where to start, as I didn't want to write some sort of long thesis on the topic (long-winded as I am, I am trying to keep myself in check when I can  :laughing7:) and then ask you/others to dissect it in order to address each point. So I think that maybe making and addressing various points as we go would work better for the purposes of having a discussion.  :bigGrin:

So I am just going to begin by posting the verse in question and making a few comments and then we can take it from there.  :thumbsup:

Act 2:29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

I guess the first thing that I would like to point out is "what" is being discussed and that it the prophesies made BY David OF Christ when he said: "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption".

The "proof" that is being offered of this is the fact that David's BODY is still in its sepulcher while Christ's BODY is not. Christ's tomb is EMPTY! (AMEN!!)

The point is not that David is still "asleep" and awaiting "the resurrection of the dead"; the point is that David's prophesies were fulfilled by the resurrection OF CHRIST (and were not words spoken of David, himself). 

[bobf]

For sure the main point was not that David was asleep.  The main point was, as you stated, that the prophecies were about Christ.  But a side point leading up to the main point was that David was both dead and buried.  I'd be hard pressed to call David dead if he were enjoying eternal life with God.

My question for you would be this.  If you believe David was with God at that time, do you believe David was resurected already.  And by resurrection, I'm referring to the resurrection spoken of by Christ when he reasoned with the Sadducees.

[Pierac]

So when was David resurrected?


Paul

[Chris]

Ok, so let's look at a couple of other translation with a slightly different wording:

ASV:
Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

YLT
Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;

LITV
Men, brothers, it is permitted to say to you with plainness as to the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us until this day.


So rather than saying that David "is dead and buried" we have Paul saying that David "died and was buried"

"dead" in this passage [τελευτάω (teleutaō)] is in the aorist (not present) tense.

So, yes, David both died and was buried.

And his sepulcher (tomb, which would contain his body) "is with us unto this day".

(I am going to address the resurrection in another post. )

[Chris]

Looking now at what Christ said to the Sadducees, picking up just before Christ gives his answer:

Mat 22:27-32 And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

First, let's address the fact that "in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven"

Who are "the angels of God in heaven"?

In the book of Revelation we see that letters are sent "to the angels of the churches".

In Galatians we have Paul saying that he was "received as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus"

In the book of Matthew we have Christ saying that "the reapers are the angels".

Who did Christ send "to reap"? (John 4:28)

In 1 Cor we have Paul answering the question "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" and that "not all flesh is the same flesh".

And just as not all flesh is the same flesh, there are body TERRESTRIAL (natrual) and bodies CELESTIAL (spiritual).

And how are those "celestial" bodies described?

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

Then Paul goes on to discuss "the resurrection of the dead", but is it after a physical/natural/carnal truth or after a SPIRITUAL truth?

In relation to "the stars" let's look to Revelation:
 
Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


We can discuss this further, but I want to go ahead and move on to the next part of the verse.


First, Jesus points out that God said: I am THE GOD of Abraham and THE GOD of Isaac and THE GOD of Jacob.

Second, He points out that God is not the God ~of the dead~ but OF THE LIVING.

Remember that Abraham believed God and that is was imputed to him for righteousness.

We are saved by FAITH through GRACE. Abraham died IN FAITH.

Abraham was ALIVE (not "dead"), for God is the God OF THE LIVING (not the dead).

Therefore Abraham was "resurrected from the dead" and was passed FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

And Jesus said: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."


Jesus Christ ~IS~ the resurrection and the life. Listen to His words to Martha (paying close attention to her words as well):


Joh 11:23  Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

Joh 11:24  Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Gonna stop there for now...

[bobf]

Therefore Abraham was "resurrected from the dead" and was passed FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

Ok Chris... this is the part I was specifically looking for.  To believe that Abraham is still awaiting the resurrection that Christ spoke of in that passage can not be reconciled with a belief that Abraham is with God.  But since you believe Abraham was resurrected then your belief is consistent with that passage.

[Chris]

I don't believe that "the resurrection of the dead" has anything to do with rotting flesh in dirt graves (the flesh profits nothing).

People point to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it being a "bodily" resurrection and say that this is "proof" that our resurrection will be the same (bodies popping out of graves).

Yet Paul said that that which is SEWN is ~NOT~ that which is REAPED.... that GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him, and to each seed it's own body.

I believe that the reason that Christ was resurrected "bodily" was to prove "the resurrection of the dead", and we can only see "that which IS NOT SEEN" by that which "IS SEEN" (given to us, to reveal those things).

Christ tells us who "the dead" are: they are they who "partake not of" HIS FLESH and HIS BLOOD. They have "no part" in HIS (THE FIRST) resurrection.

God said that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" and Adam/men SINNED and Adam/men DIED; this has nothing to do with our "mortality" as it is THIS MORTAL that must "put on" IMMORTALITY. And we can only do that by being found "IN HIM" who ONLY has IMMORTALITY.  

[bobf]

This passage almost states what you're saying, but you have to connect verse 25 "the dead... that hear shall live" with verse 29 "the ressurection of life"

• John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[Chris]

This passage almost states what you're saying, but you have to connect verse 25 "the dead... that hear shall live" with verse 29 "the ressurection of life"

• John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I'm not sure what you're asking, but I see verse 25 connected to 29 because those who "hear" and "live" are "resurrected unto life", right? Having passed from death unto life.

The remainder (though they "come forth"... "unto a resurrection of damnation") remain "dead" and "the wrath of God" abides upon them (everlasting punishment). 

[bobf]

I'm not sure what you're asking, but I see verse 25 connected to 29 because those who "hear" and "live" are "resurrected unto life", right? Having passed from death unto life.

I wasn't really asking a question.  Just pointing out that this passage might support what you're saying about the timing of the resurrection to life since Jesus said "and now is".  Yes, I think it is reasonable to connect verse 25 and 29 though I'm sure some would disagree since that would put the 1st resurrection "now" even before Christ died and rose again.   So if you believe that a believer is resurrected to life "now" during his lifetime then what is the timing of the resurrection to condemnation?

[Zeek]

I'm sure some would disagree since that would put the 1st resurrection "now" even before Christ died and rose again.  

:thumbsup:

[bobf]

This passage seems to prove that those who have (present tense) eternal life still have a resurrection awaiting them in the future, at the last day.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[sheila]

   Matthew 22;43

   How is it,then....that David..speaking by the spirit

   CALLS HIM LORD?

   IF THEN....DAVID  CALLS HIM LORD

  HOW CAN HE BE HIS SON?

[sheila]

 I don't think this can really be addressed without Psalms 110

     The Lord says to "my Lord.".[David confessins Christ as the

    Lord]  sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.

  The Lord will extend your mighty sceptor from Zion,

  you will rule in the midst of your enemies. Your troops will be willing on your day of battle

   Arrayed in Holy majesty, from the womb of the dawn

  you will receive the dew of your youth

   THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND


   YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER, IN THE ORDER OF

      MELCHEZIDEK


  what's the order of Melchezidek?  when did it begin[Christ's

  priesthood] when does it end....I tell you He was a priest

  BEFORE THE FOUNDING OF THE WORLD

     Look at His first known appearance ' then Melchezidek

  KING OF SALEM brought out bread and wine.

   Hebrews 7;3 Without Father or Mother, without geneology

  without beginning of Days or end of life, LIKE

  THE SON OF GOD HE REMAINS FOREVER.

   Now, do you recognize WHO this is speaking of?

   who has no Mother of Father, beginning or end?..BUT GOD!!

           the Father and I are ONE....I do only what I see the

      Father doing? What did He see the Father doing?

  casting out demons? raising the dead? laying down His body?

in order to take it back up again?  I think so....

[Chris]

{edited just to highlight the question being answered in this post}

I'm not sure what you're asking, but I see verse 25 connected to 29 because those who "hear" and "live" are "resurrected unto life", right? Having passed from death unto life.

I wasn't really asking a question.  Just pointing out that this passage might support what you're saying about the timing of the resurrection to life since Jesus said "and now is".  Yes, I think it is reasonable to connect verse 25 and 29 though I'm sure some would disagree since that would put the 1st resurrection "now" even before Christ died and rose again.   So if you believe that a believer is resurrected to life "now" during his lifetime then what is the timing of the resurrection to condemnation?

Not really. Jesus Christ ~is~ THE resurrection and THE life. He is THE FIRST-fruits of them that slept.

The resurrection is not past... nor it is future.

Christ IS, WAS, and IS TO COME.

The "resurrection" that we are striving to enter into is HIS, to know the power of HIS resurrection, which is found IN HIM.

Where do the scriptures ever speak of a "second resurrection"? Nowhere!! It only speaks of THE FIRST (HIS). Blessed and holy is he that has part in THE FIRST (HIS) RESURRECTION.


Look at what Paul said:

Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Php 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

[Jesus said: I AM the resurrection an the life. We become "Children OF THE RESURRECTION".]

Php 3:12  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[He never says that he "has not" attained unto the resurrection; he says he continues to strive for it "as though" he has not. Why? ]

Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Php 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Php 3:15  Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Php 3:16  Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Php 3:17  Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


Why would Paul "count not himself" and tell us to "walk by the same rule"?  

[Chris]

I'm not sure what you're asking, but I see verse 25 connected to 29 because those who "hear" and "live" are "resurrected unto life", right? Having passed from death unto life.

I wasn't really asking a question.  Just pointing out that this passage might support what you're saying about the timing of the resurrection to life since Jesus said "and now is".  Yes, I think it is reasonable to connect verse 25 and 29 though I'm sure some would disagree since that would put the 1st resurrection "now" even before Christ died and rose again.   So if you believe that a believer is resurrected to life "now" during his lifetime then what is the timing of the resurrection to condemnation?

Sorry, I missed the last question. It is also now. Are they not spoken of as taking place that the same time? Some come forth to one while others come forth to the other? The graves were opened at the same time weren't they?

Who does the wrath of God abide (present tense) on?

[Chris]

This passage seems to prove that those who have (present tense) eternal life still have a resurrection awaiting them in the future, at the last day.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The "last" day is also "today"  (when you hear my voice and harden not your hearts).

The "DAY" of the Lord is "divided".

Note that Christ said: "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" (John 11:9)

Why only 12?

There are 24 hours in "a" day, right? But Christ mentions only 'half' of "a" day and says that there are 12 hours in "the" day. Right?

That is because God has "divided" the light from the darkness. THE NIGHT from THE DAY.

And THE NIGHT (when it is PAST) is AS YESTERDAY.

It is also connected to "a thousand years":

Psa 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Christ comes "as a thief in the night", right? To awake those who sleep!!

Eph 5:14  Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

WE pass FROM DEATH (the NIGHT) UNTO LIFE (the DAY).

When? TODAY!

When we hear His voice and harden not our hearts.

We become children OF THE DAY, children OF THE RESURRECTION

And are not longer walking "in darkness" (asleep/dead - in THE NIGHT)

And THE NIGHT (when it is past) is as YESTERDAY.

TODAY ~is~ THE DAY of the Lord!!

There is a connection between "the third day", "the last day" and "today".

But it is all ONE DAY unto the Lord.

[Chris]

Thanks Sheila! Good thoughts!! Amen!!

[bobf]

Sorry, I missed the last question. It is also now. Are they not spoken of as taking place that the same time? Some come forth to one while others come forth to the other? The graves were opened at the same time weren't they?

Where does it say they occur at the same time?

Who does the wrath of God abide (present tense) on?

Are you associating that with resurrection to condemnation?

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Was David A Saint ???
Matt. 27:53 David is with the Father, and the Chirst where ever they are today.

Lee

[sheila]

2 Cor 2;15,16

    For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are

being saved and those who are perishing.

   TO THE ONE WE ARE THE SMELL OF DEATH;

    TO THE OTHER THE FRAGRANCE OF LIFE

[Chris]

Where does it say they occur at the same time?

Sorry, I was referring to the verse that you posted, so assumed you would know to what I was making reference.

Joh 5:28-29  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Are you saying that you don't see this verse as speaking of this all happening at the same time; wherein one group comes forth unto a resurrection of life while the other to a resurrection of damnation?

Are you associating that with resurrection to condemnation?

Yes, I associated "everlasting punishment" (as opposed to "eternal life") with "the wrath of God".

Here "the resurrection of life" is set apart from "the resurrection of damnation".

[bobf]

Sorry, I was referring to the verse that you posted, so assumed you would know to what I was making reference.

Joh 5:28-29  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Are you saying that you don't see this verse as speaking of this all happening at the same time; wherein one group comes forth unto a resurrection of life while the other to a resurrection of damnation?

I don't see that verse as necessarily saying that it all occurs at the same time.  It might be just stating the fact that this will happen for all at some hour.

Yes, I associated "everlasting punishment" (as opposed to "eternal life") with "the wrath of God".

But every person who passes from death to life (resurrection to life) was formerly a child of wrath (resurrection to condemnation) so wouldn't that put these two resurrections at different times?

[Chris]

I don't see that verse as necessarily saying that it all occurs at the same time.  It might be just stating the fact that this will happen for all at some hour.

I guess so, but it certainly doesn't read that way to me.

Even in Acts it says:

Act 24:15  And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Those who see more than one resurrection "divide" this verse differently, as well; but it still speaks of "a" resurrection. And Jesus Christ says that "He" is "the" resurrection.


If Christ is "the" resurrection then how can there be more than "one"?

But every person who passes from death to life (resurrection to life) was formerly a child of wrath (resurrection to condemnation) so wouldn't that put these two resurrections at different times?

I don't think so, I think we are all resurrected unto damnation, then we PASS from death unto life.

However, it's not as cut and dry as that, IMO.

As I see it we are resurrected to both...the inward man (vessel of mercy) unto the resurrection of life, the outward man (vessel fitted for destruction) unto damnation.

As the outward man (the natural man) decreases, the inward man (the spiritual man) increases... and we PASS from death unto life (though within us is "both" life and death).

[Chris]

Hey Bob, one of the things that made me begin to doubt my own understanding of the millennium and the resurrections back when I was at BT was this:

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As soon as that finally stood out to me I had to question everything that I believed about the resurrection(s) and the millennium.

If I was claiming (and I was) that the elect come forth FIRST in "the first resurrection" (because we all know that "blessed and holy is that comes forth IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION) and then that resurrection was followed by "a thousand years" (whether literal or figurative) that was followed by "the second resurrection" (the resurrection of the "unjust") then how is it that, according to Christ, "the tares" are harvested FIRST?   :Chinscratch: