Is a really bad Pharisaical spirit possible w/out belief in eternal separation?

[martincisneros]

While some may [potentially] argue that some of the biggest Pharisees that they've ever seen were Christian Universalists, I'm making a distinction between someone that's occasionally overbearing [for zeal of the truth] and someone that's really got the "us vs. them" type of paradigm that's not married to the ministry of reconciliation, but that's content in promoting exclusion and exclusivity to the perpetual harm of some/many.

Christianity [by nature] is both exclusive and inclusive: exclusive in that no one comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ; inclusive in that Jesus Christ has given His Flesh and Blood for the life of the world according to John chapter 6.  ET-Christianity begins where that balance is not kept.

Some Universalists will [gladly] chase everyone into a tree with a paddle that they can, but to me that's still different from saying that at the end of the day that you're burned toast because the Blood of Christ supposedly can only be applied effectively in this life, His promises are meaningless beyond this life for everyone who didn't initiate those spiritual laws in this life, and when it comes right down to it -- the grave forever seals some beyond the reach of Christ in the way that would have really mattered.  Few Christians will ever say that Christ can't raise the bodily dead, but if they slip through His Fingers in this life into the next, then the type of resurrection power that would have really mattered is no more according to the view of far too many!  The flesh profits nothing, but supposedly all Christ is going to do at the last day is raise flesh from the dead.  Makes sense to me :sigh:

After all, the resurrection of condemnation must be the glorification of flesh, but the damnation of the soul, right?  What else would be the point??  His saving power can't reach into the grave of anyone that didn't already agree to it!  That would be immoral.  The eternal abandonment of those who never knew for a single second in their hard lives what real love was isn't immoral, because after all, that's what God does.  So, we've justified immorality by saying that it's not immoral if enough Christians [with a straight face and a bad translation] can say that God does it.

It's 7:20am where I'm at, so that's one reason why I'm rambling.

Is it possible to have an exclusionary spirit in this life if one doesn't believe in eternal separation?  (And by eternal separation I mean the ideas of eternal torment, eternal incarceration, and the growing view of eternal death.)  Thus far, I've felt like it was too bold to assert that UR was THE cure to the relentlessly exclusionary and apathetic spirit that permeates most of Christianity.  Is it??

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think it is if there is a focus on being one of the elect, firstfruits and treasures in heaven.

You can still get the idea that some are favored over others and get an elitist attitude towards those who do not believe. 

I mean sure, an athiest will one day be reconciled back to God, but the elect are greater and will have more rewards and possibly even rule over those that do not come through the narrow gate.

With that said, I am not sure it could be as bad as telling someone of eternal (insert condemning theology here) if they do not listen.

[Andy]

Hi Martin,

I have to tell you, brother, that it's such a blessing to read your writing.  You have a gift and command of language, praise God!

Intresting question and I think Paul Hazelwood is right on with what he shared that he sees.

Here's another observation I've seen over the years.

I remember when I was first given the revelation of UR, I was led to a teacher based forum for my first year or so, which I think that's where God wanted me at first.  But after a while I could see an elitist attitude in it where if one was to disagree or question the teacher's view or interpretation, then that person would be rebuked or worse, ran out of town on a rail.

So I think it can be easy to get caught up in the differing doctrines that seem to tie into UR.

Just some thoughts,

Peace,

Andy

[martincisneros]

I have to tell you, brother, that it's such a blessing to read your writing.  You have a gift and command of language, praise God!

I'm just a useless, unprofitable servant of Christ that simply does my duty.  When He gives me something to share, I share; when He doesn't give me more, I'm quiet.

I think it can be easy to get caught up in the differing doctrines that seem to tie into UR.

Good doctrine is very precious.  Many of the Universalists I'm acquainted with are leery of anything Biblical that's not direct proof of UR.  Particularly, if it finds them in the wrong, then the Bible's inspiration is brought into question very often.  However, without humility, love, thankfulness, and the spirit of self-sacrifice, then the ablest teacher will find their [most powerful] doctrines very unfruitful.  I've often wondered over the last several months whether saying anything whatsoever is fruitful or just a trap.  It often seems that a teacher of the Spirit and the Word opens their mouths only to their own crucifixion.  And perhaps that was the only reason all along.  But then that leads to the fatalism, and perhaps the Calvinism that a teacher was only sent for the damnation of us all.  I think that things often make less sense to me than to anyone else around here. 

Is it possible that Jesus Christ may teach a handful more than anyone else -- much more than anyone else -- so that there's deliberately more that they can't say than that they can?  Can this be one version of the Philippians 3 "being a partaker in the fellowship of His sufferings..."??  I've had a long long grocery list of "extra" doctrines [for years] that I've never opened my mouth about to anyone on earth 'cause the very first hints that I was "going somewhere" brought instant anger.  Lord Jesus finally told me a few years ago that I could teach and edify Him as often and for as long as I'd like any time I wished, when I went to Him in a fit of rage one time over the immaturity of the Body and over how 99.9% of the things that I'd ever care to say would deeply anger 99.9% of people in this world.  He let me go on and on and on one time until there was total silence, and then He said "ever read the Gospel of John?  ...Been there!!" 

He took me to Acts 13 where it says that they MINISTERED to the Lord AND fasted.  They thanked, they praised, they worshipped.  All of that's included in ministering, but they ministered to the Lord.  Here's a humbling thought for any teachers among us.  When nobody else will listen, Jesus will.  He keeps a CD of every message on your heart anyway!  He loves you, even if you're a teacher among us.  Or perhaps especially 'cause of the peculiar perils and persecutions of the teacher that He knows all about.  Got a new revelation that not another soul on earth seems to give a crap about??  Preach it to Him.  You've got His undivided attention.  He'll help you with balancing your perspective on it, but He's also the first Person on the front row when your heart's to the exploding point with a Word from Him.  Never ever think you're lacking an audience if you ever feel like you're about to have a preaching fit, as though it were strictly true that nobody would care to listen to some new insight.  He doesn't just listen when it's fellowship with Him, praise, petition, or repentance. 

This post took such a sudden, interesting turn.  I'm not sure who I'm specifically talking with, with the odd direction this post has taken.  Might be a member of the boards or just somebody lurking without an account with these boards.  If you've got a teacher's calling on your heart, He's the first One with your business card in His wallet, and the first One with a subscription to your CD of the month.  Ultimately, all of your gifts are for an audience of One anyway.  He created musicians.  Think He likes music?  Here's a radical thought for some of you.  He loves good preaching and teaching.  When's the last time you edified Him??  He's not a rude know-it-all.  A lot of us easily don't want to hear something we think we know, but He's not like that at all.  You can be in your living room, imagine yourself in the biggest colloseum with Him on the front row and all of the angels and saints already in heaven taking up every seat and just preach and preach and preach and preach and preach and preach :cloud9:

[reFORMer]

"We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle." (Hebrews 13:10)  Maybe it was both T. Austin-Sparks and Watchman Nee that wrote a little something on MINISTRY TO THE HOUSE OR TO THE LORD . . . as information it only points the way but offers little comfort when in prolonged isolation from other members of Christ's body until intimacy with God is attained.

He's near to the broken heart and contrite spirit.  He dwells with the lowly.  Brokeness is an opposite to the Pharisee.  Welcome to His work to get us there.  He had to add the "much" to, "By much suffering we MUST enter the kingdom of heaven."  God's way is to manifest with those who genuinely know and confess with Jesus (and Paul) that, "Of my own self I can do nothing."  What part of nothing don't you understand?

Knowledge is crucial to wisdom, but we are prone to want it more than wisdom; yet, it is, "Wisdom [that] is the principle thing."  We don't go around thinking about our telephone number all day.  Somehow we can draw on our subconscious mind and bring it up if we need it.  His being made unto us Wisdom is a Presence we draw from as we would our subconscious mind.  We put on the mind of Christ.  But this is first and foremost toward God, glorifying Him.  Jesus beholds the Father.

Just like jealousy can be so destructive for a man and yet God's name is jealous, so God is very "vain."  Not in the sense of uselessness and worthlessness, but in a desire to be seen and admired.  It is a holy thing, a part of worship.  He likes to show up and show off.  But to do it He needs an earthen vessel that won't usurp Him, claiming to be responsible for the glory.  That the trancendence of the glory be of Him is a necessary state testified by the nature of the being along with whom God delights to dwell.  The Pharisee thinks himself, faithful to his code and indoctrinating others in it, to be the Way of God.  But God is Himself the Way.  His Presence isn't for hire, but you'll pay all for His Presence.  Because, "What have you that you have not received?"

He's the lowliest of all for, "Underneath are the everlasting arms."  To know what God is like, the image and likeness we are being conformed to, look at the lowliness of Jesus, obedient to the cross and it's shame.  The Pharisee wants others submitted unto himself to his own glory.  God "upholds all who fall." (Psalm 139)  The Pharisee doesn't "uphold," but removes away from himself those that fall so as to hold himself up as the one.  The Father is the servant called the husbandman that tends the vineyard.  The Pharisee wants the fruit of the vinyard for his own profit and others to serve it to him.

How can we not be Pharisees?  The first vessel, our Adamic nature, must be marred, broken under the Potter's hand then become another form, become that vessel according to The Potter's delight.  This is the dealings of God:  grace; not by the Pharisaical diligence of man.  To come forth from the Unlimited we cannot start in Adam.  But the unlimited in the limited means suffering.  God added the word "much" to it.

---JMR

[WhiteWings]

I think it is if there is a focus on being one of the elect, firstfruits and treasures in heaven.

You can still get the idea that some are favored over others and get an elitist attitude towards those who do not believe.

And what about those that tried to believe but somehow couldn't. Or where tricked to believe into the wrong denomination/religion. Muslims aren't muslims because the want to annoy God; they truly believe they are on the right track.

I mean sure, an atheïst will one day be reconciled back to God, but the elect are greater and will have more rewards and possibly even rule over those that do not come through the narrow gate.

With that said, I am not sure it could be as bad as telling someone of eternal (insert condemning theology here) if they do not listen.

The 'rule over' part sounds like  bad start to me.
So there will be a bunch of leaders at the top. No problem if that's Jesus/God. But (former) humans....
Isn't heaven full of sinners? Whoops bad quote.. :-)
Each and every one is a sinner. Some will largely suppress it with their ET fears. Some where power hungry but didn't have the position to force their views on anyone.
The believer got his sins washed away because of the sacrifice of Jesus. But was his nature washed away?
If yes the the nature of everyone that enters heaven will be washed away and no rulers are needed.
If no then people need to be ruled. And that implies to me sinful nature is still there. The verse below strengthens that idea.

Revelation 20:7-8  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

[Our Wings are Burning]

Thanks for that post, martin.  I don't necessarily preach (I'm not very acclimated to public speaking), but I like to write messages every once in a while that I put on my blog and facebook, and I feel like no one is getting the point.  It takes great patience to not get frustrated with such things, patience that I have not as yet been blessed with.  I try to write online with the mindset of, "I'm writing this for myself, but if anyone is blessed or challenged by it, then that's an added bonus."

Perhaps, after reading your post, I should have the mindset of writing for God as well.  Thanks.

[nightflight]

Yes.  People who believe in eternal torment are more likely to be @******* then those who believe in UR.  Take if from someone on the outside.

[squeak]

While some may [potentially] argue that some of the biggest Pharisees that they've ever seen were Christian Universalists, I'm making a distinction between someone that's occasionally overbearing [for zeal of the truth] and someone that's really got the "us vs. them" type of paradigm that's not married to the ministry of reconciliation, but that's content in promoting exclusion and exclusivity to the perpetual harm of some/many.

Christianity [by nature] is both exclusive and inclusive: exclusive in that no one comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ; inclusive in that Jesus Christ has given His Flesh and Blood for the life of the world according to John chapter 6.  ET-Christianity begins where that balance is not kept.

Some Universalists will [gladly] chase everyone into a tree with a paddle that they can, but to me that's still different from saying that at the end of the day that you're burned toast because the Blood of Christ supposedly can only be applied effectively in this life, His promises are meaningless beyond this life for everyone who didn't initiate those spiritual laws in this life, and when it comes right down to it -- the grave forever seals some beyond the reach of Christ in the way that would have really mattered.  Few Christians will ever say that Christ can't raise the bodily dead, but if they slip through His Fingers in this life into the next, then the type of resurrection power that would have really mattered is no more according to the view of far too many!  The flesh profits nothing, but supposedly all Christ is going to do at the last day is raise flesh from the dead.  Makes sense to me :sigh:

After all, the resurrection of condemnation must be the glorification of flesh, but the damnation of the soul, right?  What else would be the point??  His saving power can't reach into the grave of anyone that didn't already agree to it!  That would be immoral.  The eternal abandonment of those who never knew for a single second in their hard lives what real love was isn't immoral, because after all, that's what God does.  So, we've justified immorality by saying that it's not immoral if enough Christians [with a straight face and a bad translation] can say that God does it.

It's 7:20am where I'm at, so that's one reason why I'm rambling.

Is it possible to have an exclusionary spirit in this life if one doesn't believe in eternal separation?  (And by eternal separation I mean the ideas of eternal torment, eternal incarceration, and the growing view of eternal death.)  Thus far, I've felt like it was too bold to assert that UR was THE cure to the relentlessly exclusionary and apathetic spirit that permeates most of Christianity.  Is it??

It is my opinion that every Child of God goes through this as a stage.  It is legalism that God matures, once you moved past it (not that you can't have an occasional relapse), I think we're very sensitive to it.