Check this out! SEems the new pope is all for UR!
whatya think!?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html
:dsunny:
It's an interesting and perhaps even inspiring turn, but it still lies within the "salvation by works" universe.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 26, 2013, 01:51:55 AM
It's an interesting and perhaps even inspiring turn, but it still lies within the "salvation by works" universe.
Oh Laz, I've been rejoicing over the news, not because I think there's going to be a great turn around... but for me personally, I believe God has, through the leader of the RCC, given me an opening to discuss in greater detail God's Glorious Plan to bring all to be with Him for all eternity-- with my many, many Catholic relatives and friends who do have a certain respect for my great love of the Scriptures, but have been hesitant to really get into a discussion of all being saved. Anyway, I do understand what you are saying... but don't we have the Father's ear... ask anything according to His will, and He will answer... is it not His will that all be saved? His mercy endureth forever...
OneThing, I agree with what you say. We do not all arrive at the Truth at the same time, or by the same route, but we have to start where we are planted. If you can turn this development into a witnessing tool, then more power to you! If what the Pope said is still in the works (rather than faith) arena, that can be dealt with later. Use what you have firmly in hand now. We all arrive in time.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 26, 2013, 02:57:47 AM
OneThing, I agree with what you say. We do not all arrive at the Truth at the same time, or by the same route, but we have to start where we are planted. If you can turn this development into a witnessing tool, then more power to you! If what the Pope said is still in the works (rather than faith) arena, that can be dealt with later. Use what you have firmly in hand now. We all arrive in time.
Thank you so much Laz for such a kind, gracious, encouraging reply... I like the three-step counsel:
+start where we are planted
+turn this development into a witnessing tool
+use what you have firmly in hand now
May His peace, His grace, His joy reign in your heart and mind, Anna
No official council of a Protestant Church that I know of, has condemned Universalism as heresy. And even the Roman Catholic Church tolerates the soft form of Universalism in that it is permissible to hope and pray for the salvation of all. The heresy is to assert that this must happen. In fact Paul exhorts us to pray for the salvation of all mankind(1Timothy 2:3-6). Evangelicals tend to regard even this "hopeful universalism" as heretical-- in practice, if not always in theory.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on May 26, 2013, 04:20:01 AM
No official council of a Protestant Church that I know of, has condemned Universalism as heresy. And even the Roman Catholic Church tolerates the soft form of Universalism in that it is permissible to hope and pray for the salvation of all. The heresy is to assert that this must happen. In fact Paul exhorts us to pray for the salvation of all mankind(1Timothy 2:3-6). Evangelicals tend to regard even this "hopeful universalism" as heretical-- in practice, if not always in theory.
They ALL overlook this question: If ALL are not saved/redeemed/reconciled, how can God then ever become ALL in ALL?
That is a good question Lazarus Short. I suspect many people who attend church ask that same question to themselves. I also suspect many people who attend church question privately the doctrine of eternal torment.
No, I don't think most folks ever put it together on a conscious level, such that they see the contradictions and disconnects between one doctrine and another, between one scripture and another. Buffet theology is partly to blame. Call me Laz, BTW. :friendstu:
Thanks Laz. And you can call me rj :gimmefive: Blessings to you.
I have to say, I like this pope much better than the last one. I admire Francis for his boldness and willingness to stand up for what he believes in and how he isn't afraid to diverge from the traditional Catholic way. He seems like a humble man in a quest for truth and desire to know God. I can only pray that God continues to reveal His glorious truth to the pope, and he isn't afraid to speak it. I still have close ties with Catholicism in my community, and I know this new pope has already upset a lot of "traditional" Catholics.
That being said, I liked how he said that Christ gave a ransom for all and gave his blood for all humanity, but he still based salvation on works. He said that atheists will be saved because of good works which isn't true. Atheists won't be saved until God reveals Himself to them. So close to the truth, yet so far. Once again though, I give the pope credit. God has a plan for his life too, and he will learn the whole truth at the perfect time appointed by God.
Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 26, 2013, 09:33:22 AM
That being said, I liked how he said that Christ gave a ransom for all and gave his blood for all humanity, but he still based salvation on works. He said that atheists will be saved because of good works which isn't true. Atheists won't be saved until God reveals Himself to them. So close to the truth, yet so far. Once again though, I give the pope credit. God has a plan for his life too, and he will learn the whole truth at the perfect time appointed by God.
Agreed. "No man comes to the Father except through Me". - Jesus.
Agreeing to your agreement Jobcat. No Christ, no Salvation but through Christ there is Salvation for all! (No time for involvement yet Jobcat. Later)
Well it does say his spirit will be poured on all flesh in the end times, hopefully he will reveal himself to MANY during this time! :banana:
IMO Christ will not be restoring anything called religion when He returns. Christ abolished Judaism and when he returns He will abolish all religious cults including the Christian cult of ET.
Matthew 10
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Christ has no intention of restoring anything as perverse as Christianity, just like Judaism it has become corrupt to the core. God doesn't need religion.
Now on that note He may restore "the Way" which is what we now call Christianity. Christianity added and subtracted what ever controlled people most efficiently just like a cult. In the first 300 years (give or take) before The First Council of Nicaea they had not become corrupt but the counsel changed all the rules and people still seem to believe that they must follow doctrine (traditions) instead of the Christ.
I knew this would happen:
Just one day after the pope's now famous remarks in Rome on May 22, Vatican spokesman the Rev. Thomas Rosica released comments stating that people who reject the teachings of Jesus Christ can't be saved after all.
"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body," Rosica wrote. "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."
For full article, go to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html?icid=hp_front_top_art
as he was scattering the seed,some fell along the path,and the birds came and ate it up.
Quote from: IceMan84 on May 29, 2013, 02:38:39 AM
I knew this would happen:
Just one day after the pope's now famous remarks in Rome on May 22, Vatican spokesman the Rev. Thomas Rosica released comments stating that people who reject the teachings of Jesus Christ can't be saved after all.
"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body," Rosica wrote. "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."
For full article, go to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html?icid=hp_front_top_art
Well he's right that no one can be saved by any other means than Christ, but he left out the most important part about every knee bowing and every tongue confessing.
Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 29, 2013, 08:13:52 AM
Well he's right that no one can be saved by any other means than Christ, but he left out the most important part about every knee bowing and every tongue confessing.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on May 29, 2013, 11:40:43 AM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 29, 2013, 08:13:52 AM
Well he's right that no one can be saved by any other means than Christ, but he left out the most important part about every knee bowing and every tongue confessing.
:thumbsup:
So close....... :doh:
Interesting now if the catholics are now closer to the truth compared to the protestants.
Quote from: sheila on May 29, 2013, 04:05:13 AM
as he was scattering the seed,some fell along the path,and the birds came and ate it up.
Sheila perfect place to interject that particular scripture. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all have versions of this parable. Mt. 13:3-4, Mk. 4, Luke 8:5
Matthew 13
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Thanks sis,
DuWayne
Quote from: IceMan84 on May 29, 2013, 02:38:39 AM
I knew this would happen:
Just one day after the pope's now famous remarks in Rome on May 22, Vatican spokesman the Rev. Thomas Rosica released comments stating that people who reject the teachings of Jesus Christ can't be saved after all.
"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body," Rosica wrote. "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."
For full article, go to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html?icid=hp_front_top_art
..."Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her." -- interesting to note, the idea, you (still) must enter "the church" to be saved.. (Catholic Church, I think is meant)
Instead of merely "believing" (in sincerity of course, which produces fruit) and thus having one's "name written in the Book of Life"...
Quote from: rjohnson741 on May 26, 2013, 05:21:57 AM
That is a good question Lazarus Short. I suspect many people who attend church ask that same question to themselves. I also suspect many people who attend church question privately the doctrine of eternal torment.
I suspect many people who attend church, sit there wondering where they are going to go eat after service. :sigh: :laughing7:
Quote from: jedi1989 on May 29, 2013, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: jabcat on May 29, 2013, 11:40:43 AM
Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 29, 2013, 08:13:52 AM
Well he's right that no one can be saved by any other means than Christ, but he left out the most important part about every knee bowing and every tongue confessing.
:thumbsup:
So close....... :doh:
Interesting now if the catholics are now closer to the truth compared to the protestants.
Very interesting thought indeed! :Chinscratch:
Quote from: musicman on May 25, 2013, 11:08:57 PM
Check this out! SEems the new pope is all for UR!
whatya think!?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html
:dsunny:
I think this is a good thing. As a matter of fact, I think this is
HUGE! As one has already said, perhaps they are now closer to the truth than the protestants! Maybe. :dontknow:
John Paul II was also leaning toward UR. That Francis is also seeing the truth is a good sign.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on May 26, 2013, 05:21:57 AM
That is a good question Lazarus Short. I suspect many people who attend church ask that same question to themselves. I also suspect many people who attend church question privately the doctrine of eternal torment.
I know that my dad questions it, but he isn't opened up fully to the idea of UR because I think he still has a problem with people like Hitler and Stalin gaining eternal life. I think that comes from being too involved in the Catholic church all his life. I guess I'm still a bit too involved considering I am working at the Catholic church and school in my community this summer. I'm just the maintenance guy though lol. Gotta earn money somehow. If they ask me to teach Sunday school I'll probably turn them down.
yes, but there be certain men in high positions,religious leaders..that take this as a threat to their authority........
these people honour me with their lips..but their hearts are far removed from me. they worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 29, 2013, 07:50:43 PM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on May 26, 2013, 05:21:57 AM
That is a good question Lazarus Short. I suspect many people who attend church ask that same question to themselves. I also suspect many people who attend church question privately the doctrine of eternal torment.
I suspect many people who attend church, sit there wondering where they are going to go eat after service. :sigh: :laughing7:
LOL jberton that's like the story of my childhood. Before church if my parents said we were going out to eat after I would just want mass to get over with because I was excited to go out. This was especially the case in summer because there's this really awesome retro drive in down the street from the church with great burgers and ice cream where everyone seems to gather after mass lol.
Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 29, 2013, 08:31:58 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on May 29, 2013, 07:50:43 PM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on May 26, 2013, 05:21:57 AM
That is a good question Lazarus Short. I suspect many people who attend church ask that same question to themselves. I also suspect many people who attend church question privately the doctrine of eternal torment.
I suspect many people who attend church, sit there wondering where they are going to go eat after service. :sigh: :laughing7:
LOL jberton that's like the story of my childhood. Before church if my parents said we were going out to eat after I would just want mass to get over with because I was excited to go out. This was especially the case in summer because there's this really awesome retro drive in down the street from the church with great burgers and ice cream where everyone seems to gather after mass lol.
Haha, that happens to me too. :laugh:
At one of the few churches I ever attended wehad an interim pastor who's
Message was about all Scripture. I loved it! But was so surprised after service to find many if not most were totally bored with him! I thought, what!?
Quote from: jedi1989 on May 29, 2013, 01:09:26 PM
So close....... :doh:
Interesting now if the catholics are now closer to the truth compared to the protestants.
We need to remember, while comparing whose Truth is bigger or taller, that the Truth is measured in light-years, and man's understanding of same is measured in microns. [Scale is exaggerated for emphasis...] :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
Vatican Clarifies Pope's 'Redeemed Atheists' Remark, Says Salvation is Only in Catholic Church
http://christiannews.net/2013/05/29/vatican-clarifies-popes-statement-about-redeemed-atheists-says-salvation-is-only-in-catholic-church/ (http://christiannews.net/2013/05/29/vatican-clarifies-popes-statement-about-redeemed-atheists-says-salvation-is-only-in-catholic-church/)
Move on nothing to see here.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 29, 2013, 10:43:00 PM
Quote from: jedi1989 on May 29, 2013, 01:09:26 PM
So close....... :doh:
Interesting now if the catholics are now closer to the truth compared to the protestants.
We need to remember, while comparing whose Truth is bigger or taller, that the Truth is measured in light-years, and man's understanding of same is measured in microns. [Scale is exaggerated for emphasis...] :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
:iagree:
But to be fair he does have scriptural backing, ie. Matthew 25:31-46, Rev 20:12-13. Just that the translation is faulty in his biblical backing, probably, not entirely his fault, he just hasn't stumbled upon UR like we did. If only "eternal" is translated properly in those 2 chunks of scripture.... :dunno2:
Although from what I gathered from the article, he probably got this notion from life experiences rather than study of scriptures. But God gives us life experiences to learn and grow afterall, ie human/family love to reflect God's love, conscience to reflect God's justice, etc. :Chinscratch:
While it is not the truth, it is a good platform for us to evangelize, when other seekers of truth discuss about the pope's views, about how right it seems, but they just can't put two and two together, we can fill it in for them, so its not all doom and gloom. :dsunny: