implicit faith

[anti_nietzsche]

For some days now I have been wondering if some unbelievers, many actually, might have a shot at salvation through implicit faith.

To clarify, I think the bible says that to be sure of your salvation you need to have explicit faith. You must admit it to yourself, to God, to others, you must get baptized, you must stay in touch with Jesus and not, in your heart, forsake God.

People who go this route always find salvation.

But there is also implicit faith, besides explicit faith. With that I mean, one could ask are not some people more obedient to Jesus' love commandments than others? Are not some unbelievers greater practicioners of agape love than some christians?

One could ask, do perhaps some people do things and have attitudes that suggest an implicit faith in Jesus?

I mean, the faith Jesus asks of us must be in the heart. But we are not only heart, we are also head. I have a friend who says he believes in his heart but doubts in his head.

This is how I think it could be that some people open their hearts to Jesus without knowing. In their head they believe what the world says, that the universe came about randomly, that Islam makes more sense and is more straight away, that atheism prevents all religious foolishness and so on. But in their heart, that place inside of us that other people often cannot see or understand, they believe that Jesus exists and wants the good for us.

Suppose you have an atheist arguing with a mainstream christian. The christian argues that if the atheist doesn't pick up faith in Jesus, he will go to hell. The atheist replies, if there would really be a God who created this wonderful world He would forgive me and not let me suffer forever. And while now we have a disagreement and while the atheist doesn't express explicit faith, one could say his heart saw God's goodness and in that moment and with these statements about God, he had faith.

I was also thinking of a passage in the book of Hebrews. It says there that Abel BY FAITH brought forward an offering of sheep, and was saved accordingly. Somehow the sheep he offered pointed to Jesus, the lamb of God. But did Abel have explicit faith? Did he get baptized into the church? No, likely Abel never knew Jesus like the people in the Gospels or like we know him. It seems to me he simply made decisions that showed he wanted what then we can see also pertains to Jesus.

So he had implicit faith. Now doesn't this also apply to a lot of modern people who are not christians? Don't we do what pertains to Jesus if we do good, put faith in values like solidarity and ethical living? I know Jesus wants me to be mindful of doing good rather than evil. But in the same way, within his limits, an atheist can be just as and even more mindful than me about doing good rather than evil. What is with muslim women who sacrifice themselves for their abusive families and care for the children in utmost love?

I am not sure I believe in true UNIVERSAL salvation. I sometimes dabble in it, then I leave it be again. Sin is an awful thing and like many people know, some sins can just be too much for you. You end up wanting to kill yourself, you can't look other people and God in the eye anymore.

But I would love it if God could also save people who may not want to be christians but who have really good and noble intentions. 

[nes]

For some days now I have been wondering if some unbelievers, many actually, might have a shot at salvation through implicit faith.

To clarify, I think the bible says that to be sure of your salvation you need to have explicit faith. You must admit it to yourself, to God, to others, you must get baptized, you must stay in touch with Jesus and not, in your heart, forsake God.

You don't need to be sure of your salvation when your filled with hope.  No where does it say that you must "admit" your salvation to yourself, god, or others.  No where does it say that physical baptism ensures salvation.  No where does it say that you even need to show that you have love for jesus to be saved.

People who go this route always find salvation.

But there is also implicit faith, besides explicit faith. With that I mean, one could ask are not some people more obedient to Jesus' love commandments than others? Are not some unbelievers greater practicioners of agape love than some christians?

So tell me just how much obedience to Jesus's love commandments do you need to have to be saved?  Once again, nothing in the bible says that you need to show love to Jesus by doing good things to get salvation.

One could ask, do perhaps some people do things and have attitudes that suggest an implicit faith in Jesus?

I mean, the faith Jesus asks of us must be in the heart. But we are not only heart, we are also head. I have a friend who says he believes in his heart but doubts in his head.

What kind of faith?  You need to have faith to believe that jesus is lord and that he was raised from the dead.  Believing in Jesus doesn't mean anything because you can believe in a jesus that does not exist.  People believe in jesus's that don't exist, such as Mormons, Catholics, and Muslims.

This is how I think it could be that some people open their hearts to Jesus without knowing. In their head they believe what the world says, that the universe came about randomly, that Islam makes more sense and is more straight away, that atheism prevents all religious foolishness and so on. But in their heart, that place inside of us that other people often cannot see or understand, they believe that Jesus exists and wants the good for us.

Opening your heart to jesus means absolutely nothing.  I have no idea where you got this concept from.  In fact, people's hearts are evil stones that they must be destroyed and replaced by a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26, Psalm 51:10,Jeremiah 17:9).  Your flesh is incapable of pleasing god (Romans 8:7-8).  So anyone who does not believe in jesus cannot please god or love god.  Your heart has evil desires to sin (Matthew 5:27-30).  There is zero biblical support for "opening your heart to jesus." 

Suppose you have an atheist arguing with a mainstream christian. The christian argues that if the atheist doesn't pick up faith in Jesus, he will go to hell. The atheist replies, if there would really be a God who created this wonderful world He would forgive me and not let me suffer forever. And while now we have a disagreement and while the atheist doesn't express explicit faith, one could say his heart saw God's goodness and in that moment and with these statements about God, he had faith.

I'll say it here plain and simple.  Just having faith in a jesus does not mean your saved since you can believe in a jesus that doesn't exist.  If you believe that jesus sinned, was just another prophet, didn't come back to life, isn't lord, and the such, then you do not believe.  The bible says whoever believes in him has eternal life, but believe what specifically?  You can't just believe, the word believe is a verb.

I was also thinking of a passage in the book of Hebrews. It says there that Abel BY FAITH brought forward an offering of sheep, and was saved accordingly. Somehow the sheep he offered pointed to Jesus, the lamb of God. But did Abel have explicit faith? Did he get baptized into the church? No, likely Abel never knew Jesus like the people in the Gospels or like we know him. It seems to me he simply made decisions that showed he wanted what then we can see also pertains to Jesus.

Abel was not saved because he did that.  God said the aroma was pleasing but did not say that he was pleased by Abel.  If he was "saved", then he would have gone to heaven instead of paradise, this did not happen.  Nobody was able to please god.  All of them (believers) went to paradise, which is in hades.  Not a single person went to heaven until jesus was in the process of being resurrected.  In fact, it would be impossible for any human to ever go to heaven unless jesus took his life and raised himself.  It doesn't matter what Abel did, he did not make perfect his heart and spirit.  So that ritual might've asked for forgiveness but forgiveness of sins doesn't mean you'll go to heaven.  Only a pure heart, that doesn't desire to sin can go to heaven.  Nobody going to heaven will ever sin and will ever leave heaven, unlike the fallen angels that were there.

So he had implicit faith. Now doesn't this also apply to a lot of modern people who are not christians? Don't we do what pertains to Jesus if we do good, put faith in values like solidarity and ethical living? I know Jesus wants me to be mindful of doing good rather than evil. But in the same way, within his limits, an atheist can be just as and even more mindful than me about doing good rather than evil. What is with muslim women who sacrifice themselves for their abusive families and care for the children in utmost love?

Jesus said that the pharisees hearts were like filthy rags and that your righteousness must surpass them to get to heaven.  If any evil is allowed to enter heaven, then God would have lied because God has said that only pure hearts can enter heaven.  God is fair and just, if he lets someone without a pure heart in heaven, then he must let everyone else without a pure heart in heaven including satan.  Satan would never be defeated.  Having an evil heart is against the law.  Lusting in the heart is adultery and hating someone is killing (Matthew 5:28, Matthew 5:21-22).  Isaiah 64:6 ESV  "...and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment..."

I am not sure I believe in true UNIVERSAL salvation. I sometimes dabble in it, then I leave it be again. Sin is an awful thing and like many people know, some sins can just be too much for you. You end up wanting to kill yourself, you can't look other people and God in the eye anymore.

But I would love it if God could also save people who may not want to be christians but who have really good and noble intentions.

People have evil intentions, you might not see them revealed unless they were in a certain situation.  I don't know where you got this doctrine from but it's not supported anywhere in the bible.  Sin itself is invisible and doesn't effect you, sin is not a physical object, it's contained by God's knowledge.  People who are not believing in Jesus after they die are destined to be sent to hades, where they will stay to await judgement day by jesus, who is the god in flesh form.

I'll end on this note

James 2:8-11 ESV
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well. 9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for ALL of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Hebrews 11:4  "By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead."

[anti_nietzsche]

Brrrr ... you are cold.

I won't discuss this with you.