So, a guy tells me those in heaven have to continually eat from the tree of life for immortality.
i asked, those in eternal hell dont have a tree to eat from, how do they keep immortality?
i will let yall know what he says......
do these people even THINK???
chucjkt
LOL
BTW, try mentioning to him that "tree of immortality" is an unscriptural phrase, and it's actually the "tree of life." And the tree of life is found in New Jerusalem, not Heaven. And, New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ, and the "life" within the bride of Christ is the Spirit that we all walk by today, not tomorrow.
He probably has confusion about the difference between "aionios life" and "immortality."
My guess is that diets are popular is hell :laughing7:
Quote from: chuckt on June 19, 2009, 09:17:51 PM
do these people even THINK???
To answer your question: No.
Before I understood UR and believed in ET, I tried to think logically about hell. It didn't work :bigGrin:
So basically I didn't think about... however I also didn't feel the need to go out and present my ideas about hell on an internet forum, mainly because I was somewhat embaressed that I couldn't reason it out.
To further this point, if one tries to think and reason out God's sovereignty combined with an eternal hell - what one ends up with is Calvinism. And the Calvinists really believe in some scary twisted things.
At least the Arminians don't think about it too much so they can keep the image of a loving God in their mind.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2009, 10:01:23 PMMy guess is that diets are popular is hell :laughing7:
At least the zero protein variety so that their metabolism doesn't make them even hotter for when
"Hell's a bit hot today" or whatever. Lots of eating of fruit in Hell, according to some EXperts.
they either claim men have an immortal soul, or that death is an existence in misery, (though a life after all), some say God will make the damned immortal that they suffer everlastingly
Quote from: sven on June 19, 2009, 11:09:08 PM
they either claim men have an immortal soul, or that death is an existence in misery, (though a life after all), some say God will make the damned immortal that they suffer everlastingly
You know what is funny here?
1 Cor 15:54 So when this
corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
As part of being made immortal, you are also made
incorruptible! Incorruptible means NOT corrupt, which also means you are RIGHTEOUS!
Can't be made immortal and still be corruptible, so I guess God makes people immortal and incorruptible and then tortures them in hell...
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Does this verse define a group....?
Quote from: chuckt on June 19, 2009, 09:17:51 PM
So, a guy tells me those in heaven have to continually eat from the tree of life for immortality.
i asked, those in eternal hell dont have a tree to eat from, how do they keep immortality?
i will let yall know what he says......
do these people even THINK???
chucjkt
I have heard some say that you can lose immortality to which I reply then what is the difference between immortality that you can lose and mortality?
Paul
Quote from: trettep on June 20, 2009, 07:13:54 AM
I have heard some say that you can lose immortality to which I reply then what is the difference between immortality that you can lose and mortality?
Sorta conditiobal immortality. If you play by the rules you will never die. If you break the rules you will die.
If those in heaven can loose salvation/eternal life it means there is no perfection.
And:
YLT Matthew 12:25 And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said to them, 'Every kingdom having been divided against itself is desolated, and no city or house having been divided against itself, doth stand,
If you can loose eternal heaven can you also loose eternal hell? According to ETs we start with 95% in hell. Then gradually people in heaven start falling away. So in, say, a million years all of humanity is in hell?
Quote from: legoman on June 19, 2009, 10:16:03 PM
To further this point, if one tries to think and reason out God's sovereignty combined with an eternal hell - what one ends up with is Calvinism. And the Calvinists really believe in some scary twisted things.
At least the Arminians don't think about it too much so they can keep the image of a loving God in their mind.
You know, that really shows how when you add just a little leavening of false doctrine, it leavens the whole lump. That is why doctrine really is important. Some UR folks get it into their minds that doctrine doesn't matter, but look how it enslaves people.
Quote from: Seth on June 21, 2009, 08:21:05 AM
You know, that really shows how when you add just a little leavening of false doctrine, it leavens the whole lump. That is why doctrine really is important. Some UR folks get it into their minds that doctrine doesn't matter, but look how it enslaves people.
I agree and disagree with you.
Hows that for an opening line :winkgrin:
Lets give the leaven a name: "Eternal torture." -> forces all thoughts the wrong way.
And the other leaven we name: "All are saved." -> forces all thoughts the correct way.
Pehaps we can speak of good and bad leaven?
I have no religious backhround myself but I can very well understand that people bring parts of their old doctrine into their new UR revelation.
But if UR is kept as the unmoveble cornerstone then the leaven of UR will push away all bad parts of the former doctrine?
(For me) it's quite easy to spot that leaven at work.
Post a love verse on an ET site and people start searching context for anger.
Post a fire verse on an UR site and people start searching context for love.
The search for love/anger is teh type of leaven involved.
I leave(n) this thread now for those who actually know what they talk about. :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2009, 11:53:41 PM
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Does this verse define a group....?
:umnick:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 21, 2009, 08:59:52 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2009, 11:53:41 PM
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Does this verse define a group....?
:umnick:
Maybe he's talking about the group of people who drink Red Bull and stay up all night. xD
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 21, 2009, 08:58:37 AM
But if UR is kept as the unmoveble cornerstone then the leaven of UR will push away all bad parts of the former doctrine
Not necessarily, unfortunately. There are some wide disagreements within UR. And often times what happens is that people single out one scripture and assume it means something it doesn't, but they build a whole doctrinal belief system from three or four scriptures that contradicts much of the Bible, and in some cases makes the Gospel of no effect. Yet they believe in "all saved."
The "all saved" is really only part of the gospel. In fact, I have found that "all saved" it really isn't the main focus which is why, while there are explicit scriptures about "all saved" they don't dominate the message.
Quote from: Seth on June 21, 2009, 11:51:22 AM
The "all saved" is really only part of the gospel.
Agreed. But a very important part IMO.
Anyway what I was trying to say is this: If you stick to the "all saved" it forms a big barrier to ET things slipping in.
Or forcing you to leave certain parts of your old believes behind.
QuoteThere are some wide disagreements within UR.
I noticed that on this forum :laughing7:
The question is are they disagreements on important points?
We have a saying: You can go clockwise or counter clockwise but the result is the same.
That's what I see/understand from many arguments on TM.
But arguments with ET are far different.
Quote from: Seth on June 21, 2009, 11:51:22 AM
The "all saved" is really only part of the gospel. In fact, I have found that "all saved" it really isn't the main focus which is why, while there are explicit scriptures about "all saved" they don't dominate the message.
:cloud9: Yes it is, and like any aspect of the revelation of His nature, it can be a source of idolatry springing up, bringing defilement, as one sets up "camp" there and does not move with the cloud, as 3000 plus denominations testify to. Blessings....
Quote from: Seth on June 21, 2009, 11:51:22 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 21, 2009, 08:58:37 AM
But if UR is kept as the unmoveble cornerstone then the leaven of UR will push away all bad parts of the former doctrine
Not necessarily, unfortunately. There are some wide disagreements within UR. And often times what happens is that people single out one scripture and assume it means something it doesn't, but they build a whole doctrinal belief system from three or four scriptures that contradicts much of the Bible, and in some cases makes the Gospel of no effect. Yet they believe in "all saved."
The "all saved" is really only part of the gospel. In fact, I have found that "all saved" it really isn't the main focus which is why, while there are explicit scriptures about "all saved" they don't dominate the message.
Yes quite true. But it is the foundation. One cannot get into the deep mysteries of God until you realize all will be saved.
The real question: why are we all here?
ETers think: Make the right choice, (or be lucky enough to be chosen by God), and then be saved.
But if you understand that all will be saved, then the question "why are we all here" becomes much more complex to answer.
But I'll give the simple "high-level" answer.
We are all here to learn love!
Throw ET back into the mix, and "we are all here to learn love" doesn't cut it. With ET view, "we are all here to try to keep our sorry @$$ from hell" is a much more likely answer. But you can't progress beyond that under the ET view.
Peace and love friends!
Quote from: legoman on June 21, 2009, 08:35:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 21, 2009, 11:51:22 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 21, 2009, 08:58:37 AM
But if UR is kept as the unmoveble cornerstone then the leaven of UR will push away all bad parts of the former doctrine
Not necessarily, unfortunately. There are some wide disagreements within UR. And often times what happens is that people single out one scripture and assume it means something it doesn't, but they build a whole doctrinal belief system from three or four scriptures that contradicts much of the Bible, and in some cases makes the Gospel of no effect. Yet they believe in "all saved."
The "all saved" is really only part of the gospel. In fact, I have found that "all saved" it really isn't the main focus which is why, while there are explicit scriptures about "all saved" they don't dominate the message.
Yes quite true. But it is the foundation. One cannot get into the deep mysteries of God until you realize all will be saved.
The real question: why are we all here?
ETers think: Make the right choice, (or be lucky enough to be chosen by God), and then be saved.
But if you understand that all will be saved, then the question "why are we all here" becomes much more complex to answer.
But I'll give the simple "high-level" answer. We are all here to learn love!
Throw ET back into the mix, and "we are all here to learn love" doesn't cut it. With ET view, "we are all here to try to keep our sorry @$$ from hell" is a much more likely answer. But you can't progress beyond that under the ET view.
Peace and love friends!
From a UR prospective I like to think of Romans 11:32 as, at the very least, the most basic answer to why man is on Earth: so that God might show us his mercy. So, in a sense, it really is about learning love. God's love that is!
:cloud9: Amen; there is NO other reason. :HeartThrob: Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2009, 10:01:23 PM
My guess is that diets are popular is hell :laughing7:
Once you hit your mid 40's, you will learned diets
are Hell! I'm beginning to believe fat cells contain their own built in tree of life. :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 21, 2009, 12:12:14 PM
QuoteThere are some wide disagreements within UR.
I noticed that on this forum :laughing7:
The question is are they disagreements on important points?
We have a saying: You can go clockwise or counter clockwise but the result is the same.
That's what I see/understand from many arguments on TM.
But arguments with ET are far different.
I actually think the disagreements in UR are very important points because different forms of UR go into completely different places in
the walk which I think is the main focus in the New Testament teachings. I have seen forms of UR that completely downplay the seriousness of sin, whereas other forms of UR acknowledge it and therefore brings deeper understanding to Christ's teachings :2c:
For example one preterist UR teacher once said that he doesn't know the future and thinks it's silly for people to claim to know. Due to his doctrinal misunderstandings, "the hope" of the power of the ages to come that the NT writers paid much passionate time in teaching is made of no affect because those who follow that teaching are taught no longer to have that hope or see a necessity to run the race etc.
I mean Paul became very angry about the doctrine of circumcision being propagated in the Galatian church. Some modern UR folks might tell him "don't worry about it, everyone will be saved in the end, so why bother with that?"
Anyway, it's just a personal view. I believe that the teachings of the NT writers are important in all points, and none of them take a back seat to "all saved" which is what I have seen though the years that I have come to know about UR. In fact I went the route of "everyone is already righteous and perfect without access to grace by faith" doctrine but it was fruitless and actually brought me down.
.ooops...
Quote from: Seth on June 21, 2009, 08:21:05 AM
Quote from: legoman on June 19, 2009, 10:16:03 PM
To further this point, if one tries to think and reason out God's sovereignty combined with an eternal hell - what one ends up with is Calvinism. And the Calvinists really believe in some scary twisted things.
At least the Arminians don't think about it too much so they can keep the image of a loving God in their mind.
You know, that really shows how when you add just a little leavening of false doctrine, it leavens the whole lump. That is why doctrine really is important. Some UR folks get it into their minds that doctrine doesn't matter, but look how it enslaves people.
Doctrine ABSOLUTELY matters. :thumbsup:
Like you said, there are some in the UR camp that don't believe this, which is part of the reason that there is this ideology within those that disagree with UR that we believe that sin doesn't matter (so do whatever you want), all are saved (so preaching the Gospel isn't necessary), and everyone eventually gets there (so it doesn't matter what we do in this life). If we are to shed this misconception, we need to present the ideology from a doctrinal standpoint first, and then present the glorious outcome after that foundation has been set. Then, and only then, will those raised with orthodox thought begin to take what we have to say seriously.
:2c:
Father will draw close to Him all He desires.
We need not worry.
He will be All in All.
Quote from: j. on June 24, 2009, 07:07:53 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 21, 2009, 08:21:05 AM
Quote from: legoman on June 19, 2009, 10:16:03 PM
To further this point, if one tries to think and reason out God's sovereignty combined with an eternal hell - what one ends up with is Calvinism. And the Calvinists really believe in some scary twisted things.
At least the Arminians don't think about it too much so they can keep the image of a loving God in their mind.
You know, that really shows how when you add just a little leavening of false doctrine, it leavens the whole lump. That is why doctrine really is important. Some UR folks get it into their minds that doctrine doesn't matter, but look how it enslaves people.
Doctrine ABSOLUTELY matters. :thumbsup:
Like you said, there are some in the UR camp that don't believe this, which is part of the reason that there is this ideology within those that disagree with UR that we believe that sin doesn't matter (so do whatever you want), all are saved (so preaching the Gospel isn't necessary), and everyone eventually gets there (so it doesn't matter what we do in this life). If we are to shed this misconception, we need to present the ideology from a doctrinal standpoint first, and then present the glorious outcome after that foundation has been set. Then, and only then, will those raised with orthodox thought begin to take what we have to say seriously.
:2c:
J!
What's up man! Good to see you again.
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2009, 08:16:11 AM
Quote from: j. on June 24, 2009, 07:07:53 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 21, 2009, 08:21:05 AM
Quote from: legoman on June 19, 2009, 10:16:03 PM
To further this point, if one tries to think and reason out God's sovereignty combined with an eternal hell - what one ends up with is Calvinism. And the Calvinists really believe in some scary twisted things.
At least the Arminians don't think about it too much so they can keep the image of a loving God in their mind.
You know, that really shows how when you add just a little leavening of false doctrine, it leavens the whole lump. That is why doctrine really is important. Some UR folks get it into their minds that doctrine doesn't matter, but look how it enslaves people.
Doctrine ABSOLUTELY matters. :thumbsup:
Like you said, there are some in the UR camp that don't believe this, which is part of the reason that there is this ideology within those that disagree with UR that we believe that sin doesn't matter (so do whatever you want), all are saved (so preaching the Gospel isn't necessary), and everyone eventually gets there (so it doesn't matter what we do in this life). If we are to shed this misconception, we need to present the ideology from a doctrinal standpoint first, and then present the glorious outcome after that foundation has been set. Then, and only then, will those raised with orthodox thought begin to take what we have to say seriously.
:2c:
J!
What's up man! Good to see you again.
Seth! Good to see (and quote) you again as well!
It all comes full circle, doesn't it?