Tentmaker Forum

No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

Quote from: nightflight on August 11, 2008, 04:41:41 AM
No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

I understand. Though there is no counter argument, just what you accept as one. I went through the same thing. I got angry at God and demanded clarity because He is not a God of confusion. He taught me, the only way you can understand, is to view all things by Love. Perfect love casts out all fear, and if you still fear, then you know not perfect love. There is only one way to read Scripture: understand God and everything in the Universe and that is through the eyes of Love. Perfect love casts out all fear.

Next, if you want to believe that there is no punishment for those who continue in sin, despite God's Love, you will not find it. The sinners of Zion fear because they know they have done wrong and punishment does await them. I am one of the few who believe there is an afterlife punishment for those who do not abide in faith. The results of the punishment are perpetual in nature, the process of the punishment is a fire, and while a person goes through it it will appear to them as torture but it isn't literal fire, it isn't literal torture and it for sure is not perpetual in nature.

So if you want to believe that God does not punish those who have continue to sin and cannot find it, that is because it is not found in Scripture or the Truth. If you want to believe that God punishes them perpetually, it is equally not found in Scripture or the Truth. I hope you did not make the mistake that Universalism means no punishment.

Interesting; maybe that's what's tripping me up, being conditioned to see any punishment as necessarily everlasting.

Quote from: SOtW on August 11, 2008, 04:51:39 AM

Quote from: nightflight on August 11, 2008, 04:41:41 AM
No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

I understand. Though there is no counter argument, just what you accept as one. I went through the same thing. I got angry at God and demanded clarity because He is not a God of confusion. He taught me, the only way you can understand, is to view all things by Love. Perfect love casts out all fear, and if you still fear, then you know not perfect love. There is only one way to read Scripture: understand God and everything in the Universe and that is through the eyes of Love. Perfect love casts out all fear.

Next, if you want to believe that there is no punishment for those who continue in sin, despite God's Love, you will not find it. The sinners of Zion fear because they know they have done wrong and punishment does await them. I am one of the few who believe there is an afterlife punishment for those who do not abide in faith. The results of the punishment are perpetual in nature, the process of the punishment is a fire, and while a person goes through it it will appear to them as torture but it isn't literal fire, it isn't literal torture and it for sure is not perpetual in nature.

So if you want to believe that God does not punish those who have continue to sin and cannot find it, that is because it is not found in Scripture or the Truth. If you want to believe that God punishes them perpetually, it is equally not found in Scripture or the Truth. I hope you did not make the mistake that Universalism means no punishment.

QuoteInteresting; maybe that's what's tripping me up, being conditioned to see any punishment as necessarily everlasting.

As I was writing the response, that is what the Holy Spirit pointed out is the problem.

It's awesome to see someone work through a problem in this manner,  glimpses of hope and truth that can be built upon.

Hi nightflight,

I can really relate to you. Been there a lot. The advice to always love is a good thing.

I think this terror usually hits the wrong people. This is something I would recommend to you to think through. Read the old testament, and whom God threatens with punishment there. It's never the small sinner, it's always against peoples and societies which really went far into straight froward wickedness. I find that many modern churches, in America anyway, in error target simple people when they stand in the pulpit to condemn someone. For example, in the bible we clearly see the condemnation of love for money as evil. But still America idolizes money makers like Bill Gates, whoever, there are many out there.

Compare Jesus' Sermon on the Mount to Solomon's proverbs. I think many times christians are stuck in the proverbs. Likewise, many times believers are stuck in the old covenant when we're in fact under a new and much better covenant of love and forgiveness.

In my case, the fears come up and then they vanish again. I have the gift of tongues, and I really cling much to the God I experience there. He is utterly kind, warmhearted, attentive and full of solace and soothing. I feel that we can't always find this God in the bible, not with the many adversaries to such Revelation. Make no mistake, there is also an inward adversary. Our hearts are not reliable, they often produce images of what is or what was or what would be, without them ever being truthful. So sometimes we imagine God to be evil - without being prompted by God to do so. For some reason our minds cannot always fend off evil images. There is a good logic of faith, but there is also the logic of fear. Sometimes, when we fear something, that which we fear seems so close and true and serious. That way, the enemy pushes us into believing something evil about God, while, all the time, God is sincerely loving you, albeit in a majestic and holy way which I don't always understand. But this majestic and holy loving isn't all there is about God. In God there are also other kinds of love. That's where the bible gets helpful again. I don't know if I could stand through trials like Job's ... but I'm finding myself pretty close to Gideon for example, just look how patiently and loving he was treated. Or Ruth. Or Abraham.

My advice for you, to work against your fears, means to work on love and faith. Remember Abraham ... at some point he walked through a burning furnace, and came out unscathed, I think because He had faith. For some reason, sometimes God sends us through such furnaces. But that will not mean your whole life. God has hard things for us to experience, and easy and simple things. But sometimes we falter under pressure and our imagination gets loose and in turn convinces us that anything is terrible.

Another important advice, I think, is finding good fellowship. I've had good experiences with the Salvation Army, for example. There is something soothing about fellowshipping with alcoholics, homeless, former hippies, "loosers" etc, instead of with super stars who did anything right and consider themselves as holy as Moses. Without recognizing the veil before their eyes. I eventually became a lutheran christian, but I still have good memories from my time with the Army. Just search, search, search ... somewhere you will find a sincerely loving congregation where people love you.

I agree, UR isn't going to quit all your fears. It's just a possibility, for all we know. But, tell you what, faith in Jesus still saves. Couple that with living in love, not just love for others, also for you. But it should not be love that exists in a vacuum of yourself, not just you alone loving yourself, that gets you nowhere.

As for God, set your mind on respecting Him. Simply oftentimes take some hours for walking in the woods or at the ocean or just lying in the park watching the sky. God gives us knowledge of His greatness there, which will induce you to feel awe and respect. That's one important ingredient for a good life of faith with God. Then, set your mind on things you are aware of lacking, ie patience, longsuffering, humility, meekness etc, and pursue these things according to your strength. Don't always look at some big picture of salvation/damnation. That has always scared anyone, not just you, no matter whether you believe in UR or ET. There is something intrinsically scary, and even terrible for us small humans, about pondering an afterlife that is not in our control at all. But, we shall life here on Earth, and live a good and honest life here. And it should be a life with God, under His wings. Return to the cross often, there's peace there and much love from God for man.

At last, remember that God loves the brokenhearted and of contrite spirit. I think they are dearer to Him than those hotheads who proclaim fear and judgment without themselves really knowing in the heart what they speak about.

UR is a good thing to ponder, scripture hints at it anyway, but ultimately a doctrine will not save you. What you need is the experience of God being merciful to you, after that things will get clearer, clear enough anyway to be able to rely on God and not to fall prey to despair.

If you want, email me for more conversation. I'm fairly familiar with these kinds of fear, doubt, despair and suffering. (daniel-neubacher@t-online.de)

Blessings!

Nightflight,

QuoteFor every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.

I have the same problem. Especially when  look at things verse by verse. At close-up so to speak.
But take a few steps back. What is it what you see then?
An outline of God slapping around everyone He's angry with. And then lateron He gives another chance.... And that's the main message.

Gary did a great job with all his Aion documents on his site.
IMO he should add more documents about what fire and brimstone really are.

http://bible-truths.com/
Joyful1 pointed me to that that site and I'll point you to it too....
Read the "Lake of Fire series" 716 pages that might ease your mind a little.
When your knowledge grows you defence against horror stories grows too.
I would be lying if I said all is fear-free now. But I do notice small positive changes.

willieH: Hi Nightflight... :hithere:

Unfortunately, as I observe by your OP, you are not at PEACE...  :sigh: ...nor has PERFECT LOVE yet, embraced your heart... giving that PEACE to you.

I post this answer in hopes PEACE can become yours...

Everyone however, is welcome to disagree, and hold onto FEAR as a continuing and unsettling state, which robs its "holders" of both PEACE and LOVE...

This is not an endeavor to convince you or anyone else, but as I see it, ...the Scripture plainly says what it says...

Quote from: nightflight on August 11, 2008, 04:41:41 AM
No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

1st... "misunderstanding" is embraced instead of REJECTED... When Scripture teaches us that GOD is LOVE (1 John 14:8), and that LOVE does not contain FEAR, and we hold on to it, ...then GOD is not withholding understanding, nor should He be blamed for such... We are found willingly ignoring the statement of SCRIPTURE, ...that LOVE does not propose FEAR...

GOD is not to blame for OUR stubborness which willingly holds on to the false things  which RELGION has taught us,  ...that being that FEAR (terror/dread) concerning YHVH GOD, ...is TRUTH...  :rolleye:

To teach and/or maintain FEAR in any capacity, is CONTRARY to LOVE in its PERFECT state... and is CONTRARY to this Scripture:

1 John 4:14

There IS, ...NO FEAR... IN LOVE.  But PERFECT LOVE, casteth OUT FEAR because FEAR hath TORMENT.  He that FEARETH is NOT MADE perfect in LOVE...

This verse plainly SAYS what it SAYS...

(1)  Anyone which teaches FEAR in any capacity... (that there is TORMENT, VENGENCE and RECOMPENSE to FEAR beyond this life)... is teaching contrary to PERFECT LOVE... or,

(2)  Anyone who maintains FEAR of coming VENGENCE... is likewise, not (yet) made PERFECT in LOVE... nor is at PEACE...

When GOD LOVE is present, ...FEAR is NOT... period! 

Believe what you will...  :dontknow:

I wish you well!  :cloud9:

 


Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,


Eph 3:15  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


Eph 3:16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;


Eph 3:17  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


Eph 3:18  May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;


Eph 3:19  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Eph 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,


Eph 3:21  Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

willieH: Hi brother L... :hithere:

Quote from: laren on August 12, 2008, 11:54:24 PM



Eph 3:14  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,


Eph 3:15  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


Eph 3:16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;


Eph 3:17  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


Eph 3:18  May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;


Eph 3:19  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Eph 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,


Eph 3:21  Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

This is a prayer that my wife and I pray daily for ALL MEN, thanks for posting it brother Laren!

Thanks all!

nightflight,

willieH and others make a good point about the reality of God's Love, the mutual exclusiveness of Love and Fear, and the need to live in a state of Love.  As far as the heart is concerned, this message is the perfect medicine.  However, we can also be ensnared by the mind when we try to read the Bible using the axioms of mundane thought and handed-down tradition.  In regard to the concern you expressed:

QuoteIf God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.

Methinks willieH is treading on very thin ice when he asserts that God has not let himself be misunderstood.  What he quotes from the gospel of John is very true, but the reality is that a massive misunderstanding of God's plan has been handed down via the historic church, and that the reformation barely scratched the surface of what had been misunderstood.  As to why this occurred, I would recommend the book of Job.  The doctrine of ET is certainly a trial in mundane life, but like fires, floods, wars, riots, disease, and other trials, I see it as a concomitant of God's plan unfolding in the context of a self-consistent universe, and further complicated by humans having true albeit limited free-will.

In addition, numerous passages speak of or imply a major "end-time" revelation, something that very much implies a prior loss and/or withholding of information.  This "end-time" revelation will correct historic misunderstanding via both the hearted-centered message of love and UR and the hard scientific logic of trans-temporal causation.  This newly revealed aspect of logic is supremely relevant to the other main concern you expressed:

QuoteFor every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.

There is one argument for universalism for which there is no counter argument, and that is the old idea of Origen, Philip K Dick, SOtW, and myself that salvation takes place on parallel timelines, and that if we don't salvation in one version of history, we will inevitably find it in another.  For certain, many arguments can and will be raised against parallel timelines, but as the "end-time" revelation unfolds, they will all fail because the Holy Spirit and the Bible both testify to its truth.  And when the dust settles universal salvation will stand as an obvious reality with no counter argument.

My prescription then is to take the message of Love that willieH offers as medicine for your heart, and take the message of parallel timelines the SOtW, myself, and others will be offering as medicine for your mind.  If you do that you will be wearing the whole armor of God and the messages of torment will not be able to get through.

P.S. Check out the thread  trans-temporal redemption. (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3121.0)  The posts are a bit long and heavy but it will be worth it.  An upcoming post in that thread will address the scriptural challenge of willieH.

To be clear, I hold that "trans-temporal redemption" has aspects which make it a valid possibility concerning aionios kolasis. I hold my reservations because of the complex nature of quantum reality.

QuoteTo be clear, I hold that "trans-temporal redemption" has aspects which make it a valid possibility concerning aionios kolasis. I hold my reservations because of the complex nature of quantum reality.

I first learned about time-symmetric causation when studying quantum reality and only later saw the degree to which it is supported by the Bible.  So I'm really interested in hearing the nature of your reservations to see if there is some way we can deepen or clarify the multilayered reality that we both see in our own way.  Also, when you say "complex" do you mean complicated or complex numbered?  Maybe you can comment about this in the other thread.

I guess we are destined to have a convo in the 3rd person... :rolleye:

Quote from: True Believer on August 14, 2008, 10:17:09 PM
Methinks willieH is treading on very thin ice when he asserts that God has not let himself be misunderstood.

GOD has VEILED that which is yet to be REVEALED... He has not "let Himself be misunderstood"...  there IS a difference...

To propose that GOD has let Himself be misunderstood, is purposeful deception... as He acted PURPOSELY to make Himself MISUNDERSTOOD...

It is a far better SPIRITUAL understanding that until GOD REVEALS... men DECIEVE themselves...  Which is where VARIOUS RELIGIONS are born, along with nonsense such as EVOLUTION... and PARALLEL TIMELINES...

Endeavoring to make MEN's notions, ...that which dictates to the ALMIGHTY, as opposed to the ALMIGHTY being in COMPLETE CONTROL of His Creation dictating HOLINESS to SINFUL MEN.   And further purposes in this effort, to rob Him of the title ALMIGHTY (which by definition means having ALL MIGHT/POWER)... by noting that MAN is the essential "causation", effecting the reality of the TIMELINE in which he is found... please! :rolleye:

MEN delegating to GOD, rather than GOD delgating to MEN... cart before the horse, pushing from the front, ...whatever way you wish to envision futility and pride in its NATURAL HABITAT...

GOD has PURPOSED that REVELATION be withheld... and that is to let MAN, in his PRIDE, show himSELF... that he... IN THAT PRIDE... will conjure up IMAGINARY and FALSE EXPLANATIONS for that which he (as a veiled finite) has NO VALID EXPLANATION... IMAGINATION, ...in action...

Scripture plainly describes this: 

Prov 6:16-19

These Six does YHVH hate, yea, Seven an abomination unto Him: [1] A PROUD look [2] a LYING tongue [3] and hands that SHED innocent blood [4] an HEART that DEVISETH WICKED IMAGINATIONS [5] feet that be swift to MISCHIEF [6] a FALSE witness that SPEAKETH LIES [7] and he that soweth DISCORD among brethren...

#1, 2, 4, 5, 6, and 7 are definitely related to IMAGINATIONS (fictional unfounded and unproveable theories).. which mislead, misdirect, and cause division... ending up producing #3...

ALL you do TB, is erect a modern day COMPLEX version... of the SIMPLE folly of OLD...

You are welcome to think what you like of me... but my pathway seeks to follow TRUTH... and GOD, ...not FICTION and MEN...

Quote from: True Believer on August 14, 2008, 10:17:09 PMWhat he quotes from the gospel of John is very true, but the reality is that a massive misunderstanding of God's plan has been handed down via the historic church, and that the reformation barely scratched the surface of what had been misunderstood.  As to why this occurred, I would recommend the book of Job.  The doctrine of ET is certainly a trial in mundane life, but like fires, floods, wars, riots, disease, and other trials, I see it as a concomitant of God's plan unfolding in the context of a self-consistent universe, and further complicated by humans having true albeit limited free-will.

What an OXY MORON... TRUE but LIMITED ...FREE will!   :laughing7:

How can something which is TRUELY "FREE" ...be LIMITED?  To LIMIT means to some degree, CONFINE...  Something CONFINED is NOT... FREE!

"FREE WILL" is not even mentioned in the WORD of TRUTH, so upon what do you base it to be TRUE?   :dontknow:

The Scriptures, FROM the BEGINNING, show that Man's WILL is IN BONDAGE to ITSELF... (as Adam, KNOWING the WILL and command of GOD to NOT EAT, ...became ENSLAVED to his OWN WILL and ATE) and therefore was NOT FREE...

It is TRUTH which CREATES FREEdom...

(John 8:32)

...And ye shall KNOW the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall MAKE YOU... FREE!

Didya catch that?  TRUTH shall MAKE YOU FREE, or CREATE FREEDOM ...IN YOU...

If the WORD has not created you FREE... Then are you YET in BONDAGE... only when your choosing is UNSELFISH, is the will FREE... and even then it is NOT YOU, but CHRIST IN YOU, which chooses UNSELFISHLY...

The entire BIBLE screams of the BONDAGE of MAN, to himSELF... yet you argue that the will of Man is somehow, in some way FREE?  Get a SPIRITUAL grip bud...  :sigh:

JESUS CHRIST taught to LOVE OTHERS, ...AS... YOURSELF... THIS is the method of FREEDOM... not the SELFISHNESS which is inherent in the WILL we all, by NATURE, ...possess...

Quote from: True Believer on August 14, 2008, 10:17:09 PMIn addition, numerous passages speak of or imply a major "end-time" revelation, something that very much implies a prior loss and/or withholding of information.  This "end-time" revelation will correct historic misunderstanding via both the hearted-centered message of love and UR and the hard scientific logic of trans-temporal causation.

Patting yourself on the back areya TB?  I notice that you did not quote ANY verses of Scripture to support this assertion, which is that YOU have gained a Scripturally "end time" revelation...  Why did you omit them?  :dontknow:

"Trans-temporal causation"... is just yet another, Man-INVENTED terminology... which has no basis in that which IS WRITTEN... but endeavors to "sound impressive", much as did ADVERSITY in the Garden, ...misleading those who give it EAR...

YOU instruct above to MIX your "HARD scientific" logic, an INTELLECTUAL modern day "revelation" with LOVE, ...and IN THAT suggestion propose that LOVE is somehow incorrect and/or INCOMPLETE without your offering... :rolleye:

Your proposals speak AGAINST the WORD of YHVH as a FIXED entity... and challenges the VALIDITY of DEFINED and DIVINE PURPOSE in the WORK and WORD of GOD...

Meaning that the WORD of GOD, is NOT what it claims to be, ...a FIXED and UNCHANGING HOLY position,  ...rather finds its HOLY position, affected by that which it CREATED, and becomes its pawn, which is moved about the "room" of creation ...by the agendas of  SINFUL men...  :icon_farao:

Nor can it be relied upon as "there" when we "need it"... rather, is found rolling around in the FLUXUATION of CHANGE (which MEN find themselves amidst)... and poses that the ROCK of our SALVATION is nothing but a paper mache fallacy, which is batted back and forth at the whims of MEN...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: True Believer on August 14, 2008, 10:17:09 PMMy prescription then is to take the message of Love that willieH offers as medicine for your heart, and take the message of parallel timelines the SOtW, myself, and others will be offering as medicine for your mind.  If you do that you will be wearing the whole armor of God and the messages of torment will not be able to get through.

This is an attempt to MIX -- LOVE with your brand of INTELLECTUALITY and calling IT the "WHOLE ARMOR", when the WORD does not mention it AT ALL as a part of said ARMOR...  :thumbdown: 

And further asks us to consider adopting the OPINIONS of MEN (parallel timelines)... in order to put on the WHOLE ARMOR of GOD!  :mshock: :mshock: :mshock:

Here is the ARMOR specified:

Eph 6:14-17

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with TRUTH, and having on the breastplate of RIGHTEOUSNESS, and your feet shod with the GOSPEL of PEACE, above all taking the SHIELD of FAITH, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the firey darts of the wicked... and take the HELMET of SALVATION, and the SWORD of the SPIRIT, which is the WORD of GOD...

Where is PARALLEL TIMELINES mentioned here TB?  :dontknow:

Where does the WORD embrace or INSTRUCT such a proposal as PARALLEL TIMELINES?  :sigh:

It DOESN'T... :mnah:

You started your post with a "METHINKS"... might I end mine with one:

Methinks this WOLF  :punish: ...is wearing SHEEPS   :omg: clothing... 

dumb musician,  :drummer:  ...signing off...

Quote from: SOtW on August 11, 2008, 04:51:39 AM

Quote from: nightflight on August 11, 2008, 04:41:41 AM
No matter how much I seek, I never can be satisfied that God is not the terror I have been taught he is.  Nothing works.  For every argument for universalism there is a counter argument.  I still think that if God was truly loving he would not have let himself be misunderstood in regards to afterlife punishment.  I don't know what to do now. 

I understand. Though there is no counter argument, just what you accept as one. I went through the same thing. I got angry at God and demanded clarity because He is not a God of confusion. He taught me, the only way you can understand, is to view all things by Love. Perfect love casts out all fear, and if you still fear, then you know not perfect love. There is only one way to read Scripture: understand God and everything in the Universe and that is through the eyes of Love. Perfect love casts out all fear.

Next, if you want to believe that there is no punishment for those who continue in sin, despite God's Love, you will not find it. The sinners of Zion fear because they know they have done wrong and punishment does await them. I am one of the few who believe there is an afterlife punishment for those who do not abide in faith. The results of the punishment are perpetual in nature, the process of the punishment is a fire, and while a person goes through it it will appear to them as torture but it isn't literal fire, it isn't literal torture and it for sure is not perpetual in nature.

So if you want to believe that God does not punish those who have continue to sin and cannot find it, that is because it is not found in Scripture or the Truth. If you want to believe that God punishes them perpetually, it is equally not found in Scripture or the Truth. I hope you did not make the mistake that Universalism means no punishment.

I agree, SOTW

I wish I had never heard of Christianity.

Quote from: nightflight on August 18, 2008, 03:09:14 AM
I wish I had never heard of Christianity.

I wish you were never taught the lies of those who thought they believed in Christianity.

I will never be free of this.  Decades of guilt and fear have proven this. 

You people are really nice and are far better than the usual Christians.  But I'm going to leave; I just can't take this anymore.  I have never, never had even a moment where I felt loved or accepted by "God".  Only guilt and fear. 

You sound so sad.
If that fear haunted you for years you can't shake it of by running away.
IMHO the best way to unlearn ET is read all kind of UR books and hang around in a positive enviorment.

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Understanding%20Universal%20Salvation%20Part%20One.htm

Quote from: nightflight on August 18, 2008, 08:11:15 PM
I will never be free of this.  Decades of guilt and fear have proven this. 

You people are really nice and are far better than the usual Christians.  But I'm going to leave; I just can't take this anymore.  I have never, never had even a moment where I felt loved or accepted by "God".  Only guilt and fear. 

I cannot be sure this will help but I believe one possible cause of this is that while you like how people around here are in comparison to others, you may still be living with the influence of false doctrine.

Bear with me....

I won't say all churches or all Christians believe this way, but by and large the majority of Christian material talks about your power to move God "through" your ability to please him.

This is a lie, yes, they have scriptures, but you also have to realize that they divide the bible in error, they divide the bible between your power and Gods reaction to it. 

Rather, we should divide the bible between Gods absolute control and our perception of how that control appears.

So, quite possibly you do not feel accepted by God because you are not being removed from the circumstances you want removed from because Christian teaching makes you think that if you pleased God enough that will happen.

Your circumstances have absolutly nothing to do with whether God is pleased or not.  He is always pleased concerning us , he is always accepting of you and our circumstances whether through our choices, someone elses or life are to learn by. 

That may not help you,  but it is true.

I will never be free of this.  Decades of guilt and fear have proven this. 

You people are really nice and are far better than the usual Christians.  But I'm going to leave; I just can't take this anymore.  I have never, never had even a moment where I felt loved or accepted by "God".  Only guilt and fear. 

This is what ticks me off most about the stinking churches that think their truth is "the" truth.  People become disillusioned and walk away from the whole enchilada.  Before I finished that last sentence, . . .let me put it this way . . .Nightflight, you may think you have the ability to leave . ..to walk away . . .but God is not walking away from you . . .the reason you're "here" in this forum is because you were led here.  There are MANY people here that can help get you free from the junk that has convinced you that God is unmerciful and looking to knock you down every time you trip up.  That is man's creation of God.  Don't let it influence you any more .  . don't give up on God . . .give up "to" God.  Just tell him what you wrote here . . .God . .I quit.  I can't do this, I can't continue to live in fear and shame and guilt  . . .I quit.

Did it ever occur to you that you're not actually leaving God . .you're leaving the church's interpretation of God.  And to that I say . . .congratulations!  I am a pastor of a church and I'll tell you what I tell my own congregation . . . if all God is, is a set of rules and standards where men can inflict and enforce, then I want no part of it.  That may have worked yesterday, but this is a new day . . .we are no longer bound by the limitations of the traditions of men . . .just hang around this forum for a while longer and see if God doesn't impregnate you with life-seeds and transform you into a free spirit away from the bondages of law-abiding churches.

Blessings.
Crowbar

nightflight---

I think you may have missed the purpose of the Bible.  It can't give you life.  It testifies of Him Whom to know is Life, and that more abundant.  Jesus spoke to religious leaders that opposed Him, saying:  "...so you don't have the Father's message within you, because you don't believe in the person he has sent.  You study the Scriptures in detail because you think you have the source of eternal life in them.  These Scriptures testify on my behalf.  Yet, you don't want to come to me to get life." (John 5:38-40)  If you believe in a spirit of fear, mis-identifying it as God,  rather than believing in the true God Who is Love; then, similar to what Jesus said to the Pharisees of old, "you don't believe in the person he has sent."  Imagine if instead of just your inner states you could outwardly conjure up this god you're so afraid of so it would impose itself on others!

Part of why God allows people to believe so many false ideas about Him is He knows what the far future holds.  That, coupled with the fact that He has set Cherubic guards against Adamic man gaining access to the tree of Life.  The carnal mind cannot know God.  It would be an unspeakable disaster if this corrupting, pain-ridden, reality distorting flesh should obtain life.  "For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.  The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:  But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." (1 Pet 1:24-25)   It is the mercy of God and good news that flesh is temporary.

Various medications cause bad feelings.  Proton pump inhibitors like Prevacid or Prilosec used to treat over acid stomach or GERDs (Gastro-Esophegal Reflux Disease,) specially in higher doses cause a sense of condemnation and dread.  The muscle relaxant Soma causes depression.  Various illnesses cause chemical unbalances in the brain that affect our state of mind or "affect," one's emotional climate.  If we're under the care of a Doctor, he should be made aware of this condition.  He may be able to treat it until we are healed or to compensate for things he's already prescribed.

My additional prescription is you could be very blessed to come to a better understanding if you repeatedly read 1 Cor 15 for help in discerning between soul and spirit as well as Romans 8 (in the context of 6,7 and 8)  Get this statement:  "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Rom 8:6)  The flesh's evidences to our consciousness are often mistaken for God's attitude toward us.  Memorize and remind yourself that, "God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." (1 Tim 1:7)  You need to change your mind!  That's why I suggest you soak it in the Word of God, those two chapters in particular.  The first thing Jesus preaches is "repentance" which means to change your mind.  "Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mt 4:7)  When you read the Bible, do so until you experience the presence of the Spirit of Jesus.  Then let Him draw you on into Himself.

Also, if you can, pray agreeing with another who believes in the power of the Holy Ghost to cast out demons and get rid of the spirit of fear and condemnation.  You can also stand against it alone with Jesus if you must.  Resist the devil and he will flee from you if you're humbly submitted to God. (cf., James 4:6- 7)  Being against the devil is the smaller part however.  Most important to overcome is to thank God, praise Him with singing and the dance, entering into worship.  If you soak in His presence and gaze upon Him you'll know the difference between His glorious love, joy unspeakable and peace that passes understanding and that other puny condemning spirit of fear.  Be being filled with the Holy Spirit!

---your brother, James Rohde

QuoteProton pump inhibitors like Prevacid or Prilosec used to treat over acid stomach or GERDs (Gastro-Esophegal Reflux Disease,) specially in higher doses cause a sense of condemnation and dread.  The muscle relaxant Soma causes depression.  Various illnesses cause chemical unbalances in the brain that affect our state of mind or "affect," one's emotional climate.  If we're under the care of a Doctor, he should be made aware of this condition.  He may be able to treat it until we are healed or to compensate for things he's already prescribed.

I took Prevacid for the stress related symptom of acid stomach, and wondered why I felt condemnation and dread. I stopped taking it for that reason, and everyone told me it was in my head. Glad I followed my heart on that one.

..

QuoteSorry I just can't believe UR to be true although I wish with all my heart it was

Well shadow your heart is in the right spot, and that's what counts with God.

Quote from: Shadow on October 27, 2008, 05:10:31 PM

God has devised a system that totally places the blame on Satan and mankind without it reflecting back to him, after all no one created themselves

Shadow, I went through a lot of the same turmoils, and what I found out is that God really does take responsibility and has devised the system to hold us accountable for what we do, its just that the judgment that is normally attributed to eternity in hell is not forever.

It is actually that system that is true hope.

That is true before we even study what hell "is".

So it is Man that has devised the doctrine that has you in knots.


What I do know is that God will bring you to his truth, even if your struggling now.  God will bring those you are concerned with to the same.  God is love and love never fails and Fred phelps being bold does not cause him to be correct.

Personally I find the flood one of the best arguments agains UR.... :sigh:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 27, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Personally I find the flood one of the best arguments agains UR.... :sigh:

Yup, until you read in Peter how Jesus preached the gospel to all the disobedient ones in the days of Noah, which would be just about everybody.

Father in Heaven,
We ask thee to please bless Nightflight.  Open his heart and mind to the truth of Your words.  Let him know that he is blessed and Loved. We pray for understanding to come unto him.  Bless him Lord.  Show him your Love, and guide him into all truth and righteousness.  Help him to grow in you Lord.  In your name we pray,
Amen

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 27, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Personally I find the flood one of the best arguments agains UR.... :sigh:

I am kind of curious why you believe that.

I find it neither for nor against UR.

But if we sneek a peek into the future we see that God is going to raise everyone who ever lived (including those who died in the flood) through the miracle of life.

In taking this peek into the future, do we see even one of these people being mad at God? No, not even one is mad that God shortened their life by the flood.

If we look at Philippians 2:8-11 we see all these people bowing in the name of Jesus, Jesus meaning Saviour. We also see them happily acclaiming that "Jesus Christ is Lord."

Phi 2:8-11  and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."  (9)  Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,  (10)  that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,  (11)  and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father."

Now I ask you, is not the future bright for those who died in the flood?

And if they are not upset at God in the future day, why should we judge God and say that what He did was horrible?

Tony

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 02:12:14 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 27, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Personally I find the flood one of the best arguments agains UR.... :sigh:

I am kind of curious why you believe that.

Because God drowned sinless babies and animals He does looks sadistic... :sigh:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2008, 02:29:00 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 02:12:14 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 27, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Personally I find the flood one of the best arguments agains UR.... :sigh:

I am kind of curious why you believe that.

Because God drowned sinless babies and animals He does looks sadistic... :sigh:

Well that certainly is fair. And I'm sure you are not alone in your judging of God for what He has done with what is His.

But don't you think God is going to more than make up for it by giving them not just life but immortality and incorruption? Don't you think God more than made up for it in giving His own perfect Son to save them all?

They were all going to die anyway had the flood not come.

There was so much horrid evil in the earth prior to the flood that God had to start with a fresh gene pool.

Sure, He could have waved a magic wand (if He had one) and said: "Everyone will now act righteous and walk perfectly in love!" with those pre-flood people. But what would that teach them? They would know nothing of what it is like to be saved out of sin and death by the perfect Saviour, Jesus Christ.

I pray, dear friend, that you are able to see the bigger picture that God is aiming for with all mankind.

None of those babies or animals are going to accuse God of wrongdoing in the future. So, why should you?

Tony

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 03:22:06 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2008, 02:29:00 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 02:12:14 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 27, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Personally I find the flood one of the best arguments agains UR.... :sigh:

I am kind of curious why you believe that.

Because God drowned sinless babies and animals He does looks sadistic... :sigh:

Well that certainly is fair. And I'm sure you are not alone in your judging of God for what He has done with what is His.

Am I judging....yeah guess I'm. But I'm also simply puzzled by such things.

QuoteBut don't you think God is going to more than make up for it by giving them not just life but immortality and incorruption? Don't you think God more than made up for it in giving His own perfect Son to save them all?

Frankly speaking no. It even sounds like the "God has a BBQ so he can even better show His love to others."
Even I could have found another solution. But God made a completly different choice.

QuoteThey were all going to die anyway had the flood not come.

You know what; I drop by this weekend and will drown your wife in the pool. Means nothing really. She was going to die anyway. I let you watch and to show how a good guy I am I even pay $100

There was so much horrid evil in the earth prior to the flood that God had to start with a fresh gene pool.

QuoteSure, He could have waved a magic wand (if He had one) and said: "Everyone will now act righteous and walk perfectly in love!" with those pre-flood people. But what would that teach them? They would know nothing of what it is like to be saved out of sin and death by the perfect Saviour, Jesus Christ.

He could have selectively killed those people. With the plague for example.

QuoteI pray, dear friend, that you are able to see the bigger picture that God is aiming for with all mankind.

I certainly don't see the bigger picture. I fear it will take a long time before I will see torture as something good.
Just like I can feel good that Jesus was nailed to the cross. Saying how great that was etc is kinda selfish isn't it?

QuoteNone of those babies or animals are going to accuse God of wrongdoing in the future. So, why should you?

Perhaps because it clashed with the 10 commandments etc. Forgive, love etc.
I'm just not ready, if ever, for that. Or perhaps I'm ready because I don't only look at thinks for my own benefit?

QuoteTony

Tony
PS do you already mail to teh Netherlands  :laughing7:

The story of the flood shows the reality of the system that is in place that believers and non believers have to contend with concerning accountability. That is we reap what we sow.   You may hate Gravity too. :happy3:

I do not soft sell the story of the the flood, if people think that our sowing cannot be reaped by the innocent (whoever or whatever that actually is) just because they think it shouldn't, are mistaken.

But that is not all it is telling us.

Another issue is  whether the flood was global or from a perspective of a region.   The reason I say that is people bring up this Gene Pool stuff, LOOK AROUND!!!!  Does the Gene Pool look any better NOW?    :sigh:


It is also using this literal event to give us a spiritual story and I think it is concerning the called and chosen.  the called is everyone, and some will reap a destructive path to be reconciled.  Some may be on a boat to avoid it.

Quote
Tony:

QuoteBut don't you think God is going to more than make up for it by giving them not just life but immortality and incorruption? Don't you think God more than made up for it in giving His own perfect Son to save them all?

WW: Frankly speaking no. It even sounds like the "God has a BBQ so he can even better show His love to others."
Even I could have found another solution. But God made a completly different choice.

Tony's reply: I don't know what you mean by BBQ. Do you mean God is going to torture people in literal fire? If that's the case then you are incorrect.

Quote
Tony:

QuoteThey were all going to die anyway had the flood not come.

WW: You know what; I drop by this weekend and will drown your wife in the pool. Means nothing really. She was going to die anyway. I let you watch and to show how a good guy I am I even pay $100

Tony's reply: That $100 dollars would not offset your taking the life of my make-believe wife. However, if you were able to not only give me my wife back but also give her immortality and incorruption, I'd say your deed was more than offset by what she received in return.

QuoteTony wrote:
There was so much horrid evil in the earth prior to the flood that God had to start with a fresh gene pool.

Sure, He could have waved a magic wand (if He had one) and said: "Everyone will now act righteous and walk perfectly in love!" with those pre-flood people. But what would that teach them? They would know nothing of what it is like to be saved out of sin and death by the perfect Saviour, Jesus Christ.

WW replied: He could have selectively killed those people. With the plague for example.

Tony wrote: It is not based upon what you think He could have done otherwise. This is His creation and we the work of His hands. He can and does do with it as He sees fit according to the dictates of love. Did they even suffer? I've heard drowning is very peaceful.

QuoteTony wrote: I pray, dear friend, that you are able to see the bigger picture that God is aiming for with all mankind.

WW replied: I certainly don't see the bigger picture. I fear it will take a long time before I will see torture as something good.
Just like I can feel good that Jesus was nailed to the cross. Saying how great that was etc is kinda selfish isn't it?[/quote]

Tony's reply:
If you were in a concentration camp and a bunch of G.I.'s liberated you after many of them sacrificed their lives would you say: "Sorry chaps, I can't thank you because that would be too selfish. Now run along!" don't you think that would be odd?

QuoteTony wrote: None of those babies or animals are going to accuse God of wrongdoing in the future. So, why should you?

Quote
WW replied: Perhaps because it clashed with the 10 commandments etc. Forgive, love etc.
I'm just not ready, if ever, for that. Or perhaps I'm ready because I don't only look at thinks for my own benefit?

Tony's reply: So you are saying that all those people are bowing in the name of Jesus and acclaiming Jesus is Lord because they, by law, must love and must forgive? That sounds like you are making God and Christ failures. That after all they did for us the only way we can thank them is if they make us by some law.

QuoteTony

Tony
PS do you already mail to teh Netherlands  :laughing7:
[/quote]
We have two people in the Netherlands who get SAF.

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 08:04:04 PM

Quote
Tony:

QuoteBut don't you think God is going to more than make up for it by giving them not just life but immortality and incorruption? Don't you think God more than made up for it in giving His own perfect Son to save them all?

WW: Frankly speaking no. It even sounds like the "God has a BBQ so he can even better show His love to others."
Even I could have found another solution. But God made a completly different choice.

Tony's reply: I don't know what you mean by BBQ. Do you mean God is going to torture people in literal fire? If that's the case then you are incorrect.

Yep I mean litteral fire. But that was not my point. My point was that ET followers argue the fire (BBQ) is ok because that way God can show His love to those in Heaven. That's similar to your "...more than make it up..."

Quote

Quote
Tony:

QuoteThey were all going to die anyway had the flood not come.

WW: You know what; I drop by this weekend and will drown your wife in the pool. Means nothing really. She was going to die anyway. I let you watch and to show how a good guy I am I even pay $100

Tony's reply: That $100 dollars would not offset your taking the life of my make-believe wife. However, if you were able to not only give me my wife back but also give her immortality and incorruption, I'd say your deed was more than offset by what she received in return.

:eeew: :eek:

Quote

QuoteTony wrote: I pray, dear friend, that you are able to see the bigger picture that God is aiming for with all mankind.

WW replied: I certainly don't see the bigger picture. I fear it will take a long time before I will see torture as something good.
Just like I can't feel good that Jesus was nailed to the cross. Saying how great that was etc is kinda selfish isn't it?

Tony's reply:
If you were in a concentration camp and a bunch of G.I.'s liberated you after many of them sacrificed their lives would you say: "Sorry chaps, I can't thank you because that would be too selfish. Now run along!" don't you think that would be odd?[/quote]
Would be odd yes. But a totally different situation.
I would feel sad that the GIs died. But in case of Jesus I should be happy he died?
Both where there to save my life.

Quote

QuoteTony wrote: None of those babies or animals are going to accuse God of wrongdoing in the future. So, why should you?

Quote
WW replied: Perhaps because it clashed with the 10 commandments etc. Forgive, love etc.
I'm just not ready, if ever, for that. Or perhaps I'm ready because I don't only look at thinks for my own benefit?

Tony's reply: So you are saying that all those people are bowing in the name of Jesus and acclaiming Jesus is Lord because they, by law, must love and must forgive? That sounds like you are making God and Christ failures. That after all they did for us the only way we can thank them is if they make us by some law.

Nowhere in this thread, or forum, I claimed Father and/or Sone where/are failures.
Are you claiming its great to break every command in the Bible because Father and Son succeeded?

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2008, 02:29:00 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 02:12:14 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 27, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Personally I find the flood one of the best arguments agains UR.... :sigh:

I am kind of curious why you believe that.

Because God drowned sinless babies and animals He does looks sadistic... :sigh:

well this is off topic   :sigh:
but I believe the flood is the Dragons flood in Rev and the earth[our flesh] swallowed it up [ where else could all that death come from ?]
the reasoning is this , I believe the  Revelation  is a [  conclusion or summary ] of all the Books  in One reference    book
  just as   book one of Genesis  is  complete by itself  and  than we go on into  chapter  2  :2c:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2008, 08:25:35 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 08:04:04 PM

Quote
Tony:

QuoteBut don't you think God is going to more than make up for it by giving them not just life but immortality and incorruption? Don't you think God more than made up for it in giving His own perfect Son to save them all?

WW: Frankly speaking no. It even sounds like the "God has a BBQ so he can even better show His love to others."
Even I could have found another solution. But God made a completly different choice.

Tony's reply: I don't know what you mean by BBQ. Do you mean God is going to torture people in literal fire? If that's the case then you are incorrect.

Yep I mean litteral fire. But that was not my point. My point was that ET followers argue the fire (BBQ) is ok because that way God can show His love to those in Heaven. That's similar to your "...more than make it up..."

Maybe we are having a difficult time communicating our thoughts.
Let's think this through. God destroyed all the humans in the flood in Noah's day sans Noah and family. They were going to die anyway. God gave His only begotten Son and through that is bringing them all back to life through the miracle of the resurrection and will give them immortality and incorruption yet you say that does not more than make up for having them die earlier than they would have because some people improperly believe He will BBQ some of them? To me that does not logically follow. Maybe you just are not communicating to me clearly enough for me to grasp your point.

Quote

Quote
Tony:

QuoteThey were all going to die anyway had the flood not come.

WW: You know what; I drop by this weekend and will drown your wife in the pool. Means nothing really. She was going to die anyway. I let you watch and to show how a good guy I am I even pay $100

Tony's reply: That $100 dollars would not offset your taking the life of my make-believe wife. However, if you were able to not only give me my wife back but also give her immortality and incorruption, I'd say your deed was more than offset by what she received in return.

:eeew: :eek:
[/quote][/quote]

Tony's reply: You realize your analogy failed miserable, right?

Quote

QuoteTony wrote: I pray, dear friend, that you are able to see the bigger picture that God is aiming for with all mankind.

WW replied: I certainly don't see the bigger picture. I fear it will take a long time before I will see torture as something good.
Just like I can't feel good that Jesus was nailed to the cross. Saying how great that was etc is kinda selfish isn't it?

Tony's reply:
If you were in a concentration camp and a bunch of G.I.'s liberated you after many of them sacrificed their lives would you say: "Sorry chaps, I can't thank you because that would be too selfish. Now run along!" don't you think that would be odd?

Would be odd yes. But a totally different situation.
I would feel sad that the GIs died. But in case of Jesus I should be happy he died?
Both where there to save my life.[/quote][/quote]

Tony's reply: The GI's saved your life by their suffering and Christ saved you by giving your immortality and incorruption by His suffering. I fail to see the difference. Yes, you should be happy that not only did Jesus die FOR YOU but was resurrected FOR YOU too and in that He overcame death so will you. And you are not thankful for that? What a chump you are! :dontknow:
I'd hate to give you any toys or money for your birthday or Christmas. I can just hear you say as a child: "Am I supposed to be thankful for this?"

Quote

QuoteTony wrote: None of those babies or animals are going to accuse God of wrongdoing in the future. So, why should you?

Quote
WW replied: Perhaps because it clashed with the 10 commandments etc. Forgive, love etc.
I'm just not ready, if ever, for that. Or perhaps I'm ready because I don't only look at thinks for my own benefit?

Tony's reply: So you are saying that all those people are bowing in the name of Jesus and acclaiming Jesus is Lord because they, by law, must love and must forgive? That sounds like you are making God and Christ failures. That after all they did for us the only way we can thank them is if they make us by some law.

Nowhere in this thread, or forum, I claimed Father and/or Sone where/are failures.
Are you claiming its great to break every command in the Bible because Father and Son succeeded?[/quote][/quote]

Tony's reply:
Again, this comes down to communication. I was merely asking you what you meant. I was not saying you claimed the Father or Son were failures. But I was saying that if they force people to have a fake happiness then they failed in their objective.
So by "the law" you mean that God was supposed to forgive those pre-flood people and that for Him to show His love He was supposed to just let them go on in their extreme vileness of that age? You call that love?

God showed His love by ending the whole degradation knowing full well that His Son was going to bring them back to life. How is that not love? How is that not forgiveness? Where in the law does it say to just forgive someone for breaking the law and just let them go their merry way to murder, steal etc?

Quote from: rosered on October 28, 2008, 10:30:42 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2008, 02:29:00 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 02:12:14 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 27, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Personally I find the flood one of the best arguments agains UR.... :sigh:

I am kind of curious why you believe that.

Because God drowned sinless babies and animals He does looks sadistic... :sigh:

well this is off topic   :sigh:
but I believe the flood is the Dragons flood in Rev and the earth[our flesh] swallowed it up [ where else could all that death come from ?]
the reasoning is this , I believe the  Revelation  is a [  conclusion or summary ] of all the Books  in One reference    book
  just as   book one of Genesis  is  complete by itself  and  than we go on into  chapter  2  :2c:

dear rosered,
Thanks for your two cents.
However....Revelation cannot a summary of Paul's writings because Paul completes the Word of God
Col 1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God -"

Also, what Paul wrote about, the secrets, no one knew about in either the Old or New Testaments, John included.

As a matter of fact, Paul goes way beyond John's revelation in scope.

Jesus and the other N.T. writers took the flood of Noah's day as a literal event, not an analogy of something else. Of course, there may be shadows or types of Christ in the true account that does not mean it never happened.

Quote from: rosered on October 28, 2008, 10:30:42 PM
the reasoning is this , I believe the  Revelation  is a [  conclusion or summary ] of all the Books  in One reference    book just as   book one of Genesis  is  complete by itself  and  than we go on into  chapter  2  :2c:

I think Revelation is not a conclusion but merly a very important step.

Quote"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:  

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal  

In Revelation 20-22, we have:  

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)"  

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 11:03:53 PM
Let's think this through. God destroyed all the humans in the flood in Noah's day sans Noah and family.

Agreed.

QuoteThey were going to die anyway.

Agreed. But many old old age. Not of drowning.

QuoteGod gave His only begotten Son and through that is bringing them all back to life through the miracle of the resurrection and will give them immortality and incorruption

Agreed.

Quoteyet you say that does not more than make up for having them die earlier than they would have because some people improperly believe He will BBQ some of them? To me that does not logically follow. Maybe you just are not communicating to me clearly enough for me to grasp your point.
I'll try again.

I do not believe in the ET BBQ
ET follows do believe in classic hell.
When asked if that doesn't clash with all the God=Love verses they answer: "...by having the majority in hell God can extra clearly show you how special you are..."
My point is that you use the same logic.
God wipes out the planet but thats fine because it's for the greater cause.
I do not deny the greater cause and/or the prefect job Jesus has done.
I merly state I'm not that every possible 'tool' is a good way to reach a goal. Especially for someone with infinte possibilities.

QuoteTony's reply: You realize your analogy failed miserable, right?

It still stands.

QuoteTony's reply: The GI's saved your life by their suffering and Christ saved you by giving your immortality and incorruption by His suffering. I fail to see the difference. Yes, you should be happy that not only did Jesus die FOR YOU but was resurrected FOR YOU too and in that He overcame death so will you.
And you are not thankful for that? What a chump you are! :dontknow:
I'd hate to give you any toys or money for your birthday or Christmas. I can just hear you say as a child: "Am I supposed to be thankful for this?"

Pffff, you are either misreading or twisting my words. Point me to the place where I wrote such a thing! You can't...
I liked the presents. But I doubt I still like them if Santa said: "Nice stuff ain't it? I had to massacre 50000 people to get the toys."

I like the fact Jesus payed for our sins.
I don't like the fact he had to suffer for that.
I would have liked he preached until He died of old age. Or perhaps had a quick painless accident.
And after that rise from the grave.
So I do like the gift of live Jesus offered me. I do not like the price He payed for that gift.

QuoteTony's reply:
Again, this comes down to communication. I was merely asking you what you meant. I was not saying you claimed the Father or Son were failures. But I was saying that if they force people to have a fake happiness then they failed in their objective.
So by "the law" you mean that God was supposed to forgive those pre-flood people and that for Him to show His love He was supposed to just let them go on in their extreme vileness of that age? You call that love?

No. I say if killing was needed they do it selectivly. Just like in a war. You can win a war in 2 ways. Take out military installations and personell. Or you you can wipe a whole country out by using NBC junk on large scale.
God chose the last. I would prefer he used the first method.

QuoteGod showed His love by ending the whole degradation knowing full well that His Son was going to bring them back to life. How is that not love? How is that not forgiveness? Where in the law does it say to just forgive someone for breaking the law and just let them go their merry way to murder, steal etc?

I'm not spreaking about laws and verses.
I'm saying that for me the love message is not compatible with the wipe all out message. Certainly not for someone who has unlimitted possibilities.

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 11:09:06 PM

Quote from: rosered on October 28, 2008, 10:30:42 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2008, 02:29:00 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 02:12:14 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 27, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Personally I find the flood one of the best arguments agains UR.... :sigh:

I am kind of curious why you believe that.

Because God drowned sinless babies and animals He does looks sadistic... :sigh:

well this is off topic   :sigh:
but I believe the flood is the Dragons flood in Rev and the earth[our flesh] swallowed it up [ where else could all that death come from ?]
the reasoning is this , I believe the  Revelation  is a [  conclusion or summary ] of all the Books  in One reference    book
  just as   book one of Genesis  is  complete by itself  and  than we go on into  chapter  2  :2c:

dear rosered,
Thanks for your two cents.
However....Revelation cannot a summary of Paul's writings because Paul completes the Word of God
Col 1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God -"

Also, what Paul wrote about, the secrets, no one knew about in either the Old or New Testaments, John included.

As a matter of fact, Paul goes way beyond John's revelation in scope.

Jesus and the othere N.T. writers too the flood of Noah's day as a literal event, not an analogy of something else. Of course, there may be shadows or types of Christ in the true account that does not mean it never happened.

ok  Thanks Tony ,  literal  probably , Spiritual definatly !

I   just  have to admit I dont have it all figured out , . I dont !! 
   but John was in the Spirit  on the Lords Day 

   and    Jesus SPOKE through John in the Spirit    because any and all even some of us today  same as back than  have the Spirit of Prophecy    which is the Testimony[WITNESS]  of Jesus Christ
  speaking through  them and In them ,  Paul did  also  and that is more of why I still believe  this about Revelations , they made  the words Red [SPIRIT ] to decipher , for our help
  Which is Christ speaking  revealing everything in the Books
  the little book as well as the book of the  dead and the Book of the Living
[Lambs book of Life]
  I still think the dragons flood  was /is and will be what happens in time  we still have the false church today , same as the True Church
  because it is just  beliving lies  and  being in the flesh   , to me the same as being dead to God ... the false  church /woman


And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

  its is fine , but look how they all died and How Peter explains it and How Jesus explains as the days of Noah to me  still coming  as is the Son of Man
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.  

   The churchy  thing  destroyed me  several years  ago  , 
  i was sooo suicidal , Thank  GOD for His mercy on me 
  God bless you all .rose

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2008, 11:37:13 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 28, 2008, 11:03:53 PM
Let's think this through. God destroyed all the humans in the flood in Noah's day sans Noah and family.

Agreed.

Quoteyet you say that does not more than make up for having them die earlier than they would have because some people improperly believe He will BBQ some of them? To me that does not logically follow. Maybe you just are not communicating to me clearly enough for me to grasp your point.
I'll try again.

I do not believe in the ET BBQ
ET follows do believe in classic hell.
When asked if that doesn't clash with all the God=Love verses they answer: "...by having the majority in hell God can extra clearly show you how special you are..."
My point is that you use the same logic.
God wipes out the planet but thats fine because it's for the greater cause.
I do not deny the greater cause and/or the prefect job Jesus has done.
I merly state I'm not that every possible 'tool' is a good way to reach a goal. Especially for someone with infinte possibilities.

Tony's reply:
But I don't use the same logic. The logic of the ETer is that God eternally tormenting humans is to show His love for us believers. God does nothing to remediate those in eternal torment.

My logic is that God's love is not just to drown the world in Noah's day but is to raise them back to life, not to eternally torture them but to remediate them by giving them immortality and incorruption. THAT IS LOVE! And He will do it all through the faithfulness of His Son.

QuoteTony's reply: You realize your analogy failed miserable, right?

It still stands.[/quote]

If fails miserably. I stated:
They were all going to die anyway had the flood not come.
Then you, WW replied:" You know what; I drop by this weekend and will drown your wife in the pool. Means nothing really. She was going to die anyway. I let you watch and to show how a good guy I am I even pay $100."

Why does your analogy fail miserably? Your 100 dollars does not come even close to bringing my wife back from the dead like God is going to do for all those who died in the flood. That 100 dollars also fails miserably because it does not come close to giving my wife, who you drowned, immortality and incorruption. If you can't see how your logic fails, I'm sorry but I can't help you.

QuoteTony's reply: The GI's saved your life by their suffering and Christ saved you by giving your immortality and incorruption by His suffering. I fail to see the difference. Yes, you should be happy that not only did Jesus die FOR YOU but was resurrected FOR YOU too and in that He overcame death so will you.
And you are not thankful for that? What a chump you are! :dontknow:
I'd hate to give you any toys or money for your birthday or Christmas. I can just hear you say as a child: "Am I supposed to be thankful for this?"

WW replied: Pffff, you are either misreading or twisting my words. Point me to the place where I wrote such a thing! You can't...

Tony's reply:
Well, you did write: "Just like I can't feel good that Jesus was nailed to the cross. Saying how great that was etc is kinda selfish isn't it?"

Quote
WW wrote: I liked the presents. But I doubt I still like them if Santa said: "Nice stuff ain't it? I had to massacre 50000 people to get the toys."

Tony's reply:
But Santa can't bring back those 50,000 people and give them immortality and incorruption. So it is not equal. Neither did God massacre 50,000 people to get you salvation. It was just One Person God sent to die for you and He (Jesus) died willingly for you. So please don't put it on equal footing with someone massacring 50,000 people so you could get some toys.

WW wrote: I like the fact Jesus payed for our sins.
I don't like the fact he had to suffer for that.
I would have liked he preached until He died of old age. Or perhaps had a quick painless accident.
And after that rise from the grave.
So I do like the gift of live Jesus offered me. I do not like the price He payed for that gift.

QuoteTony's reply:
Again, this comes down to communication. I was merely asking you what you meant. I was not saying you claimed the Father or Son were failures. But I was saying that if they force people to have a fake happiness then they failed in their objective.
So by "the law" you mean that God was supposed to forgive those pre-flood people and that for Him to show His love He was supposed to just let them go on in their extreme vileness of that age? You call that love?

WW replied: No. I say if killing was needed they do it selectivly. Just like in a war. You can win a war in 2 ways. Take out military installations and personell. Or you you can wipe a whole country out by using NBC junk on large scale.
God chose the last. I would prefer he used the first method.[/quote]

Tony's reply: It sure is a pleasure to meet someone who has more wisdom than God. I am honored! We should build a shrine to you and start a new religion.

QuoteGod showed His love by ending the whole degradation knowing full well that His Son was going to bring them back to life. How is that not love? How is that not forgiveness? Where in the law does it say to just forgive someone for breaking the law and just let them go their merry way to murder, steal etc?

Ww's reply: I'm not spreaking about laws and verses.
I'm saying that for me the love message is not compatible with the wipe all out message. Certainly not for someone who has unlimitted possibilities.
[/quote]

Tony's reply: Obviously the God who had unlimited possibilities made the most perfect decision as to what to do that could be done. Just because you are far wiser than God doesn't mean He would do it your way.

I don't like this screwed up world and my couple of short gasps of suffering ignorant life in it either, much like The Great Deluge.  I think it's the best God could do, given all the variables.  He's after something within us.  I shared elsewhere how that recently, thinking about all this evil and if I was all wise and all powerful, I remarked to God, "And You don't think I could do better!?"  He immediately answered me with the realization just as I said.  He's doing an inner work. He's bringing about not only His image in us, but also His likeness, an inner quality of character, a similitude of His nature.

He also says that He will bring us into the new heavens and earth (in which will dwell righteousness) that He will create and the former things will not be remembered or brought to mind due to the glory of that which is to come.  He'll do it much better next time.

I sometimes think God lost patience with puny man for filling the earth with violence.  I don't trust people with little experience of God who casually offer some doctrinaire about what He will or won't do.  Just check out the last two verses (Malachi 4:5-6) in the O.T.  I think it's something like what C. S. Lewis said of the Lion in Narnia: "He's good; but, He's not tame."  God is dangerous.  There are things He very much hates.  Don't get up in His face and make Him mad.  We need to respect Him.

He's also developing along with us, according to the Bible. There's no end to His increase and we are to increase with all the increase of God.

Quote from: Tony N on October 29, 2008, 03:44:21 AM
Tony's reply:
But I don't use the same logic. The logic of the ETer is that God eternally tormenting humans is to show His love for us believers. God does nothing to remediate those in eternal torment.

True. But still the step towards that remediate point is kinda cruel. And thats was and still is my point.

QuoteWhy does your analogy fail miserably? Your 100 dollars does not come even close to bringing my wife back from the dead like God is going to do for all those who died in the flood. That 100 dollars also fails miserably because it does not come close to giving my wife, who you drowned, immortality and incorruption. If you can't see how your logic fails, I'm sorry but I can't help you.

For me you are now taking things out of context but never mind I point to what a wrote above.
Perhaps I can add that torture (on babies) will never look good to me no matter what the reward is afterwards.

QuoteTony's reply:
Well, you did write: "Just like I can't feel good that Jesus was nailed to the cross. Saying how great that was etc is kinda selfish isn't it?"

Yes I did write that. And still have that opinion.

Quote

Quote
WW wrote: I liked the presents. But I doubt I still like them if Santa said: "Nice stuff ain't it? I had to massacre 50000 people to get the toys."

Tony's reply:
But Santa can't bring back those 50,000 people and give them immortality and incorruption. So it is not equal. Neither did God massacre 50,000 people to get you salvation. It was just One Person God sent to die for you and He (Jesus) died willingly for you. So please don't put it on equal footing with someone massacring 50,000 people so you could get some toys.

Indeed it isn't the same. As a way to compare: Santa is limited being had no other choice that killing 50000 to get the toys. God with unlimited powers could have gotten the toys by magic. Let the people fell asleep for a while and then grab the toys. Or use another method that is at His disposal because He has unlimeted powers/possibilities.


WW wrote: I like the fact Jesus payed for our sins.
I don't like the fact he had to suffer for that.
I would have liked he preached until He died of old age. Or perhaps had a quick painless accident.
And after that rise from the grave.
So I do like the gift of live Jesus offered me. I do not like the price He payed for that gift.

QuoteTony's reply: It sure is a pleasure to meet someone who has more wisdom than God. I am honored! We should build a shrine to you and start a new religion.

I don't even bother answering such nonsense besides noone will be able to get me cornered with such reasoning.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 29, 2008, 08:25:46 AM
WW wrote: I like the fact Jesus payed for our sins.
I don't like the fact he had to suffer for that.
I would have liked he preached until He died of old age. Or perhaps had a quick painless accident.
And after that rise from the grave.
So I do like the gift of live Jesus offered me. I do not like the price He payed for that gift.

QuoteTony's reply: It sure is a pleasure to meet someone who has more wisdom than God. I am honored! We should build a shrine to you and start a new religion.

I don't even bother answering such nonsense besides noone will be able to get me cornered with such reasoning.

Dear WW, you took the above quote from me out of context.

This is the context:

Quote
WW replied: No. I say if killing was needed they do it selectivly. Just like in a war. You can win a war in 2 ways. Take out military installations and personell. Or you you can wipe a whole country out by using NBC junk on large scale.
God chose the last. I would prefer he used the first method.

Quote
Tony's reply: It sure is a pleasure to meet someone who has more wisdom than God. I am honored! We should build a shrine to you and start a new religion.

Quite a different context, huh?

Quote from: Tony N on October 29, 2008, 02:42:26 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 29, 2008, 08:25:46 AM
WW wrote: I like the fact Jesus payed for our sins.
I don't like the fact he had to suffer for that.
I would have liked he preached until He died of old age. Or perhaps had a quick painless accident.
And after that rise from the grave.
So I do like the gift of live Jesus offered me. I do not like the price He payed for that gift.

QuoteTony's reply: It sure is a pleasure to meet someone who has more wisdom than God. I am honored! We should build a shrine to you and start a new religion.

I don't even bother answering such nonsense besides noone will be able to get me cornered with such reasoning.

Dear WW, you took the above quote from me out of context.

This is the context:

Quote
WW replied: No. I say if killing was needed they do it selectivly. Just like in a war. You can win a war in 2 ways. Take out military installations and personell. Or you you can wipe a whole country out by using NBC junk on large scale.
God chose the last. I would prefer he used the first method.

Quote
Tony's reply: It sure is a pleasure to meet someone who has more wisdom than God. I am honored! We should build a shrine to you and start a new religion.

Quite a different context, huh?

Not at all. Stating one thing doesn't automaticly mean I stated or are implying another thing.
I even stated things like:

QuoteI do not deny the greater cause and/or the prefect job Jesus has done.

That automaticly exclude what you wrote. No need to read between the lines in my posts. I openly state what I mean.
I think/hope I fairly well explained you my line of reasoning. Answered all your replies by reexplaining earlier posts.
A more correct answer would have been "It's strange/odd; but I hope the reasons will one day revealed to me." (I hope the same thing)
But you choose to try to use my unspoken words against me. Be free to do that but don't expect me to be impressed with it.

Dear WW, you are skirting the issue. You said God should have done the killing differently. In effect you are saying God should not have done a global flood. You, in effect are saying you would have done it selectively. By you saying that you are saying you are wiser than God.

It is obvious that since God is all knowing and all powerful and is Love, that since He flooded the earth that there was no better way, no more loving way, no wiser way to do it than the way God did it.

This is the context:

Quote
WW replied: No. I say if killing was needed they do it selectivly. Just like in a war. You can win a war in 2 ways. Take out military installations and personell. Or you you can wipe a whole country out by using NBC junk on large scale.
God chose the last. I would prefer he used the first method.

Quote
Tony's reply: It sure is a pleasure to meet someone who has more wisdom than God. I am honored! We should build a shrine to you and start a new religion.

Quote from: Tony N on October 29, 2008, 04:32:07 PM
Dear WW, you are skirting the issue.

Nope.

QuoteYou said God should have done the killing differently.

QuoteIn effect you are saying God should not have done a global flood.
You, in effect are saying you would have done it selectively.

Yes or another selective method.

QuoteBy you saying that you are saying you are wiser than God.

I'm not and never claimed so. But that doesn't mean I find it a contradiction with UR. (that was my initial statement)

QuoteIt is obvious that since God is all knowing and all powerful and is Love, that since He flooded the earth that there was no better way, no more loving way, no wiser way to do it than the way God did it.

Even then I keep seeing the above mentioned contradiction until God gives me the wisdom to understand.

Understanding != believing/agreeing/etc

QuoteTony wrote: It is obvious that since God is all knowing and all powerful and is Love, that since He flooded the earth that there was no better way, no more loving way, no wiser way to do it than the way God did it.
WW replied: Even then I keep seeing the above mentioned contradiction until God gives me the wisdom to understand.

Dear friend,
Please explain in detail how it is contradictory that God flooded the world. I fail to see the contradiction.

Peace

Love is helping someone in need. Speaking comforing words etc.
Rescue people from drowning. Forgiving. etc etc
A God that uses every 'trick' to save/love His creation.
He's the good guy.

The flood isn't exactly God showing Himself as the good guy.
It doesn't align with the 'good image' of God.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 29, 2008, 07:18:47 PM
Love is helping someone in need. Speaking comforing words etc.
Rescue people from drowning. Forgiving. etc etc
A God that uses every 'trick' to save/love His creation.
He's the good guy.

The flood isn't exactly God showing Himself as the good guy.
It doesn't align with the 'good image' of God.

O.K. that's fair.
Let's say God did as you think He should have. Let's say He killed all the bad people over a certain age. Let's say that there were a billion people on the planet back then and that 300,000 of this billion are babies and children too young to take care of themselves. So all the adults get whacked leaving all the innocents to care for themselves. So all the innocents die a long lingering death by starvation. Does that sound more loving than a swift, peaceful death by drowning?

Perhaps there where more people that where ok beside teh 8 on the Ark.
Perhaps He could have instantly grabbed the childrens spirit before they even got wet.
Otherwise I have no idea.
But then I'm not the one with an IQ of 10^endless

I know the Bible hold several mysteries that are revealed in due time. But the Bible also commands to study, seek the truth and learn to know Father/Son/HS
And part of knowing someone is his/her character.
So that's why it's on my mind and in this thread.

That's all. :declare:

Hey guys, not saying this is the answer but two thoughts go through my mind concerning the flood.

First God did not flood the earth but took responsibility for it.
God said His spirit would not always strive with man, thus God removed His spirit (the same way he did with Job) and left the world in the hands of satan to wreak what he would.
Thus even thou God was not directly responsible for the flood He take responsibility for it because if He had not have removed His protecting spirit satan could not have had his way.

Second if one has total knowledge of the future (and I am sure God does) and God sees 100 people in the future that kill, rape, steal and do all sorts of abominations, knowing that we all reap what we sow, which would be more merciful of God to do, take those 100 peoples lives before they committed further sins or let them alone to kill, rape, steal etc?

For all we know God made the choice to spare the world further sorrow in the future.

Just some thoughts.

There are things about Noah that weren't all that good either.  They look a lot worse if you consider probabilities of "reading between the lines" probes into the Biblical record.  "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." (Gn 6:8)

God's promise that the seed of woman (an egg, an exclusively female form that was the initial manifestation of the incarnation) would crush the head of the serpent (snake, copper,divination,discernment, cast a spell) may have come close to being subverted by certain "sons of God" or, the "Rephaim," born of "sons of God" and human females.  Whether it was Angelic beings not keeping to their assigned sphere of being (per Book of Jude) descending into the physical or possibly the biologically bisexual offspring of Adam before he was put into a deep trance state (from which we are not awakened until Christ shines on us) where God separated the curved chamber from his (bottom) side, constructing it into a female.  It is possible that one of these were the ANUNNAKI (Sumerian meaning:  "Those who from heaven to earth came," Biblical Anakim, Nephilim) that have been said by the Sumerians (the oldest culture, possibly including pre-flood, who preceded the Chaldeans from which Abraham was called out) to have visited earth in it's early history.  There is much surprising information corroborating accurate knowledge (not gone into here) of the nature of relevant planets we call Neptune and specially Uranus, which Sumerians called MASH.SIG meaning it's color blue-green, different that of other planets and only re-discovered by Voyager 2 in 1989 fly-by.  Interesting that the largest (inverted, step) pyramid in the solar system (as far as we know) is on Mash.sig, etc.

By making a hybrid between two species there would be no more "seed of woman" to fulfill God's word.  The Great Deluge was the remedy.

--your brother, James Rohde

Hi James

In Numbers 13:33 the sons of Anak were called Nephilim or in the Concordant Version of the O.T. "distinguished."

These sons were not a cross breed between angels or spirits and females. Likewise, in Genesis 6:2 we have:

"And seeing are sons of the elohim the daughters of the human, that they are good, and taking are they for themselves wives of all whom they choose."

"elohim" is in lower case because the elohim were arbiters or judges as in Exodus 21:6.

These sons of the arbiters or judges were trying to amalgamate their powers by marrying daughters directly from Adam. And so God finally had his fill of this and all the evil attending it.

I am kind of curious. Can you point me to a source on the internet about a pyramid on Neptune?

By the way, we put, what you wrote to me some time ago, in the Saviour of All Fellowship newsletter.

Tony

The inverted step-pyramid is on Uranus.  Recent Science channel programs seem to sidestep and possibly falsify information about that planet.  Jet Propulsion Labratory spokesman said under it's gaseous atmosphere there is a 6,000 miles thick ocean of super-heated water.  Its temperature is as high as 8,000 degrees F.  JPL or NASA would be places to search for it.  Pyramids on Mars and Uranus, yet we won't research our own!  At the Great Pyramid of Giza, between the paws of what is (as far as the inner building over which the present "form" is molded) possibly the oldest man-made structure on Earth, the Sphynx, there is straight down (I forget how deep) an empty place, a  cubical room.  The Egyptian government forbids archeologists from digging.  If one of you remembers how many cubits on a side and how deep it is, please help my memory.

Dear James,
Please go here and take note of the temperature on Uranus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus

It is in the minus zero numbers.

Tony

The following is excerpted from the same article:

Uranus' core density is around 9 g/cm³, with a pressure in the center of 8 million bars (800 GPa) and a temperature of about 5000 K.[51][52] The ice mantle is not in fact composed of ice in the conventional sense, but of a hot and dense fluid consisting of water, ammonia and other volatiles.[7][52] This fluid, which has a high electrical conductivity, is sometimes called a water–ammonia ocean.[53]

I get conflicting information on Uranus.

What I shared about "the sons of Elohim" is speculative, but not baseless.  For me it seems like too many possibilities with insufficient information to put to rest all but what is in fact the truth of the matter.  Certainly, for as little as I've probed, my knowledge is inadequate for a satisfying conclusion to the matter.

A water-ammonia ocean.  Ugh.

How disastrous.  But, I'm sure that place is clean.  No bugs.

Maybe a more clear article:
http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/uranus_worldbook.html

http://library.thinkquest.org/C002416/uranus/index.htm

QuoteUranus is made up of a swirl of gases, liquids, and solids. It has no solid surface to stand on. The solids have settled to the center of the planet. These include silicon, iron, and a basalt like rock. The core of Uranus is about the size of Earth. At the outer edge of the core, he solid elements mix with the atmosphere around the rock. It is an ocean that is about 5,000 miles deep. It is thought to be mostly water and a mixture of liquid ammonia and methane. An interesting thing about Uranus' ocean, is that it is extremely hot-almost 8,000 degrees Fahrenheit. At the surface of this ocean, there is a gaseous layer that is 4,000 to 5,000 miles deep. This layer of atmosphere is mostly liquid hydrogen, methane and some helium. The methane gas gives Uranus its blue-green color. Above the gas layer is another layer made of hydrogen and helium.

Quote from: reFORMer on October 31, 2008, 03:06:58 AM
The following is excerpted from the same article:

Uranus' core density is around 9 g/cm³, with a pressure in the center of 8 million bars (800 GPa) and a temperature of about 5000 K.[51][52] The ice mantle is not in fact composed of ice in the conventional sense, but of a hot and dense fluid consisting of water, ammonia and other volatiles.[7][52] This fluid, which has a high electrical conductivity, is sometimes called a water–ammonia ocean.[53]

I get conflicting information on Uranus.

What I shared about "the sons of Elohim" is speculative, but not baseless.  For me it seems like too many possibilities with insufficient information to put to rest all but what is in fact the truth of the matter.  Certainly, for as little as I've probed, my knowledge is inadequate for a satisfying conclusion to the matter.

Hi James, you may be right.
This is what Nasa has on Uranus:

The temperature of the atmosphere is about -355 degrees F (-215 degrees C). In the interior, the temperature rises rapidly, reaching perhaps 4200 degrees F (2300 degrees C) in the ocean and 12,600 degrees F (7000 degrees C) in the rocky core. Uranus seems to radiate as much heat into space as it gets from the sun. Because Uranus is tilted 98¡ on its axis, its poles receive more sunlight during a Uranian year than does its equator. However, the weather system seems to distribute the extra heat fairly evenly over the planet.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 31, 2008, 11:37:39 AM
An interesting thing about Uranus' ocean, is that it is extremely hot-almost 8,000 degrees Fahrenheit

Sure feels that way after eating too many jalapenos.

Paul I think you need to read this quote:

QuoteThe standard way to pronounce Uranus among astronomers is to put the emphasis on the first syllable "ur" and then say the second part "unus". This is the standard literary pronunciation. The more common way people have pronounced it is u-ra-nus, with the "ra" sounded like "ray".

QuoteUranus (pronounced YOOR un nus)

:eeew:

:icon_jokercolor: :icon_jokercolor:  :happy3:

Just like little children.

Quote from: Tony N on October 31, 2008, 05:11:16 PM
Just like little children.

Well, thats how we are supposed to come before Jesus.    Then He goes  "Pull my finger"

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 05:28:21 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 31, 2008, 05:11:16 PM
Just like little children.

Well, thats how we are supposed to come before Jesus.    Then He goes  "Pull my finger"

But what if He says, "Paul, you've been a naughty little boy. I want you to repeat slowly 10 trillion times 'Ura nus.' That's 'Yuruh-nus.' Got it? Now run along like a good little boy and begin working on that."  :mshock:

Quote from: Tony N on November 01, 2008, 03:47:05 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 05:28:21 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 31, 2008, 05:11:16 PM
Just like little children.

Well, thats how we are supposed to come before Jesus.    Then He goes  "Pull my finger"

But what if He says, "Paul, you've been a naughty little boy. I want you to repeat slowly 10 trillion times 'Ura nus.' That's 'Yuruh-nus.' Got it? Now run along like a good little boy and begin working on that."  :mshock:

I'll go tell his Father he was being mean!!!!

Quote from: Tony N on November 01, 2008, 03:47:05 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 31, 2008, 05:28:21 PM

Quote from: Tony N on October 31, 2008, 05:11:16 PM
Just like little children.

Well, thats how we are supposed to come before Jesus.    Then He goes  "Pull my finger"

But what if He says, "Paul, you've been a naughty little boy. I want you to repeat slowly 10 trillion times 'Ura nus.' That's 'Yuruh-nus.' Got it? Now run along like a good little boy and begin working on that."  :mshock:

Someone with such a vast love surely has a spark of humor in him....

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 09:54:54 AM

Someone with such a vast love surely has a spark of humor in him....

A spark around all that methane?

Quote from: reFORMer on November 02, 2008, 07:01:10 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 09:54:54 AM

Someone with such a vast love surely has a spark of humor in him....

A spark around all that methane?

What a blast to be in Heaven  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 02, 2008, 08:20:44 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on November 02, 2008, 07:01:10 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 09:54:54 AM

Someone with such a vast love surely has a spark of humor in him....

A spark around all that methane?

What a blast to be in Heaven  :laughing7:

We will be in the heavens (plural) and among the celestials. I believe we will go amongst the vast interstellar reaches of the universe.

Quote from: Tony N on November 03, 2008, 03:20:52 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 02, 2008, 08:20:44 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on November 02, 2008, 07:01:10 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 01, 2008, 09:54:54 AM

Someone with such a vast love surely has a spark of humor in him....

A spark around all that methane?

What a blast to be in Heaven  :laughing7:

We will be in the heavens (plural) and among the celestials. I believe we will go amongst the vast interstellar reaches of the universe.

Isn't the whole creation uncreated at some point in time?
Excluding 'the spirits' or whatever the correct name might be.