Hi all, just stopped by to give some food for thought.
Scripture tells us the God is Love and Love worketh no evil.
Yet Isaiah 45:7 says
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
How do we reconcile these seemingly warring scriptures?
Create is bara in the Hebrew and can mean shape but can also mean to cut down.
So in light of what we know of Gods nature what does that scripture actually say.
Here is my translation of Is.45:7
I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Does that not line up better with the rest of God's word and nature?
Genesis 1:1-3
............and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
I form the light and cut down the darkness.
God bless
Both are correct. God is responsible for evils existance, and he does cut it down.
He plants and plucks!
There is more to the word bara.
It means creating out of nothing.
So that would imply God does not just trigger the evil inside of someone but He also put it there in the first place.
BServ and WW, I agree. I think we have to look at more than one set of scriptures. God is good, everything He does works ultimately for good; even when my human mind doesn't get it, accept it, or wants to explain it away. What I may see as unfair or not in God's nature, is my veiled eyes looking through the glass darkly - unable to see the bigger picture that God sees. I do it day after day. My puny explanations don't measure up. God's Word says what it says. It's up to me to walk humbly before Him and "let" Him be Who He says He Is.
I do a lousy job at it, but still, He is Who He is and takes credit (metaphorically speaking) for both the night and day. God is in control.
L.Ray Smith says; Now listen carefully. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.
Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?
I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world, STUPIDITY!
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).
First, Christendom assumes that God's creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!
Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!
One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!
Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God's sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God's solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.
The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here's the proof:
Let's look at a little understood Scripture.
"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that's God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn't ask anyone's permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.
One of the things that trips us up in the thought that God created evil is that it places a question upon Gods character that he do such a thing if it was not absolutely necessary.
When evil is all a part of what we perceive as we go through this process to perfection, it is not about God "thinking" "I will create evil and pummel man with it because I so desire" It is God knowing that creating us would subject us temporarily to it while we are in process, it couldn't be any other way, since God does not change.
The process cannot change because it is God expanding as a family.
Well guys beleive as you will, I posted it for food for thought not for debate.
Often in reading post aimed at those who beleive in eternal torment I have read such statement like
"The way people view God is the way they will act;therefore, if they view God as a God who will torment people in fire they see nothing wrong with doing the same thing. Than they use Hitler as an example of this principle"
And than seen how those who beleive in the restitution of all things will amen such a post.
Carefull, because your view of God is that God is ultimatly responsible (because He planned it oall out that way) for evil and sin and He can play around with evil and sin because ultimatly He means evil and sin for good.
Therefore to follow your logic that the way people view God is the way they will act you to will play around with evil and sin if you believe it is for good. Either that or you beleive God is one who says do as I say not as I do.
Anyway I'll disappear again, so you can all breath a sigh of releif, and leave you guys to your beleif of a God who wills evil and sin.
Quote from: jabcat on July 29, 2009, 11:18:55 AM
Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God's sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God's solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.
That's an awesome quote! And the average Christian response at the end is hilarious! xD (Albeit, the destruction it's caused is sad...)
Quote from: pneuma on July 29, 2009, 05:43:04 AM
Hi all, just stopped by to give some food for thought.
Scripture tells us the God is Love and Love worketh no evil.
Yet Isaiah 45:7 says
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
How do we reconcile these seemingly warring scriptures?
Create is bara in the Hebrew and can mean shape but can also mean to cut down.
So in light of what we know of Gods nature what does that scripture actually say.
Here is my translation of Is.45:7
I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Does that not line up better with the rest of God's word and nature?
Genesis 1:1-3
............and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
I form the light and cut down the darkness.
God bless
:thumbsup:
thanks Pneuma
I can see out of nothing/blank as darkness too as WW noted :icon_flower: and Jabs post was compelling
and I do not Judge God in this , for He does take us out of darkness and makes the LIGHT/ Knowledge of Him to Shine in our hearts :HeartThrob:
it is saving grace to me :boyheart: :girlheart:
Quote from: pneuma on July 29, 2009, 09:43:30 PM
Carefull, because your view of God is that God is ultimatly responsible (because He planned it oall out that way) for evil and sin and He can play around with evil and sin because ultimatly He means evil and sin for good.
Can evil exist before he cuts it down without God allowing it to exist in the first place?
God creating what we know to exist is why God is responsible, without doing so evil had no chance to exist.
This raises the point I have been trying to make in many threads over this.
Is it possible that God could have created us without any possibility of evil existing?
If so, then how does that not cause Gods loving character to be questionable?
I agree Paul.
Why would an all powerful God that despises evil for some reason (a plan) create/allow/support evil.
Answer like "must be for His plan" or "to teach us" don't really answer that because infinite power means He could have bypassed it.
Mystery for me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2009, 11:17:51 PM
I agree Paul.
Why would an all powerful God that despises evil for some reason (a plan) create/allow/support evil.
Answer like "must be for His plan" or "to teach us" don't really answer that because infinite power means He could have bypassed it.
Mystery for me.
Hey WW and Paul
you ought to read "the shack" Its a nice little book on them evil things that help us to seek God ,although He was secretly with us all along .
the Book is using a scenario of Mac's great sadness and his bitterness towards everything especially God , its
easy enough for me to understand and I DO struggle with concepts :laughing7:
just being honest :mblush: believe me the Lord does see it all and suffers with us , that we do learn to love and trust Him though any thing this life that sends our souls to the pits of hell with ....... :HeartThrob:
I am enjoying the book so far and not even done with it yet ...
Quote from: rosered on July 30, 2009, 12:15:15 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2009, 11:17:51 PM
I agree Paul.
Why would an all powerful God that despises evil for some reason (a plan) create/allow/support evil.
Answer like "must be for His plan" or "to teach us" don't really answer that because infinite power means He could have bypassed it.
Mystery for me.
Hey WW and Paul
you ought to read "the shack" Its a nice little book on them evil things that help us to seek God ,although He was secretly with us all along .
the Book is using a scenario of Mac's great sadness and his bitterness towards everything especially God , its
easy enough for me to understand and I DO struggle with concepts :laughing7:
just being honest :mblush: believe me the Lord does see it all and suffers with us , that we do learn to love and trust Him though any thing this life that sends our souls to the pits of hell with ....... :HeartThrob:
I am enjoying the book so far and not even done with it yet ...
I've read the book a while back and probably did not soak it in to where I remember everything exactly, if I got the basic implication it is something that I have been expressing in various threads.
Evil is not about God sitting there like a man planning it to happen, it is an inherant result of a process of becoming one with God, God cannot change it, it is the way it is.
The written word that we use to gain understanding on earth is often seen through our minds and how we do things. We can understand that some processes on earth to accomplish something are only going to happen one way.
While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did? Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?
This goes back to our perception.... It will "appear" as a limit that we become one with God only one way, but that limit is irrelevant, but to us it is indeed a limit.
That limitation of God makes him only liable for creation, he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.
Quote from: pneuma on July 29, 2009, 09:43:30 PM
Carefull, because your view of God is that God is ultimatly responsible (because He planned it oall out that way) for evil and sin and He can play around with evil and sin because ultimatly He means evil and sin for good.
Therefore to follow your logic that the way people view God is the way they will act you to will play around with evil and sin if you believe it is for good. Either that or you beleive God is one who says do as I say not as I do.
I see these as assumptions, as what "
some people
might think and do" - not necessaryily logical conclusions that apply to all based on a view of a sovereign God. I hope I never accuse God of "playing around" with anything, as IMO, that would be disrespectful.
I'm personally quite bad at it, but I believe I'm better off striving to accept God for Who He says He is, rather than trying to make Him fit what makes sense to me. IMO, if I spend my time trying to explain how God's ways fit into my beliefs of "my will is totally free and everything depends on what I choose", then I must come up with an endless array of ways to take God off the hook and explain "why He didn't really mean it".
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 30, 2009, 12:27:42 AM
Quote from: rosered on July 30, 2009, 12:15:15 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2009, 11:17:51 PM
I agree Paul.
Why would an all powerful God that despises evil for some reason (a plan) create/allow/support evil.
Answer like "must be for His plan" or "to teach us" don't really answer that because infinite power means He could have bypassed it.
Mystery for me.
Hey WW and Paul
you ought to read "the shack" Its a nice little book on them evil things that help us to seek God ,although He was secretly with us all along .
the Book is using a scenario of Mac's great sadness and his bitterness towards everything especially God , its
easy enough for me to understand and I DO struggle with concepts :laughing7:
just being honest :mblush: believe me the Lord does see it all and suffers with us , that we do learn to love and trust Him though any thing this life that sends our souls to the pits of hell with ....... :HeartThrob:
I am enjoying the book so far and not even done with it yet ...
I've read the book a while back and probably did not soak it in to where I remember everything exactly, if I got the basic implication it is something that I have been expressing in various threads.
Evil is not about God sitting there like a man planning it to happen, it is an inherant result of a process of becoming one with God, God cannot change it, it is the way it is.
The written word that we use to gain understanding on earth is often seen through our minds and how we do things. We can understand that some processes on earth to accomplish something are only going to happen one way.
While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did? Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?
This goes back to our perception.... It will "appear" as a limit that we become one with God only one way, but that limit is irrelevant, but to us it is indeed a limit.
That limitation of God makes him only liable for creation, he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.
wow ! well Paul , you got a good hold on the concept for sure :HeartThrob:
we sure do try to limit God in our hurt dont we :sigh:
and So much of the Word speaks of the endless Love He has and does show towards us , we dont see it at the time , but you are right
even bitterness is a feeling that soon must be pruned away from within by God to bear fruit to God ..
Thanks for the thoughts on the subject :thumbsup:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 30, 2009, 12:27:42 AM
Evil is not about God sitting there like a man planning it to happen, it is an inherant result of a process of becoming one with God, God cannot change it, it is the way it is.
The written word that we use to gain understanding on earth is often seen through our minds and how we do things. We can understand that some processes on earth to accomplish something are only going to happen one way.
While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did? Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?
This goes back to our perception.... It will "appear" as a limit that we become one with God only one way, but that limit is irrelevant, but to us it is indeed a limit.
That limitation of God makes him only liable for creation, he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.
Good points Paul. IMO, the "our perception" part being a picture of how we do see through a glass darkly, and where there really is a point of placing our trust in Him. Even (
especially) for our very lives. Because He's God and we're not, He knows what's best, and He has made MANY promises as to bringing all things for our good, and the total, complete restoration to all as being as good as or better than before.
Job's a picture of that. He said though God slay him, yet he would trust Him. The next thing Job said is often left out. He then proceeded to say "so I will bring/plead my case before His face". We all know that God restored Job to the utmost. IMO, a picture of His dealings with us individually as well as a whole.
To quote that famous verse :laughing7:, He's got the whole world in His hands.
Quote from: jabcat on July 30, 2009, 12:49:57 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 30, 2009, 12:27:42 AM
Evil is not about God sitting there like a man planning it to happen, it is an inherant result of a process of becoming one with God, God cannot change it, it is the way it is.
The written word that we use to gain understanding on earth is often seen through our minds and how we do things. We can understand that some processes on earth to accomplish something are only going to happen one way.
While we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did? Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?
This goes back to our perception.... It will "appear" as a limit that we become one with God only one way, but that limit is irrelevant, but to us it is indeed a limit.
That limitation of God makes him only liable for creation, he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.
Good points Paul. IMO, a picture of how we do see a glass darkly, and where there really is a point of placing our trust in Him. Even (especially) for our very lives. Because He's God and we're not, He knows what's best, and He has made MANY promises as to bringing all things for our good, and the total, complete restoration to all as being as good as or better than before.
Job's a picture of that. He said though God slay him, yet he would trust Him. The next thing Job said is often left out. He then proceeded to say "so I will bring/plead my case before His face". We all know that God restored Job to the utmost. IMO, a picture of His dealings with us individually as well as a whole.
To quote that famous verse :laughing7:, He's got the whole world in His hands.
:thumbsup: that was most uplifting and refreshing Bro J!!!! whew !
yes , you are right about Job , you know every time I read that book I can get more out of it than before amazing ! :HeartThrob:
Thanks, and good comments rosie...that would make a very good study someday...so many ramifications of God and satan's interactions, God's foreknowledge, Job's role, the purpose(s) of the whole episode, God bringing it to its ultimate outcome...a thousand, maybe a million lessons there? Maybe pray about starting a good, exhaustive thread on it sometime :thumbsup:.
God's blessings, James.
Quote from: jabcat on July 30, 2009, 01:03:41 AM
Thanks, and good comments rosie...that would make a very good study someday...so many ramifications of God and satan's interactions, God's foreknowledge, Job's role, the purpose(s) of the whole episode, God bringing it to its ultimate outcome...a thousand, maybe a million lessons there? Maybe pray about starting a good, exhaustive thread on it sometime :thumbsup:.
God's blessings, James.
Right on Bro J!
There is soooo much in Job to ponder and so true a million lessons so deep , to be searched out and brought to the surface , as diving for treasures kept in our hearts for safe keeping :cloud9:
God bless you and yours always :HeartThrob:
Did God have to create evil in order to create evil in the minds of men?
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1: 5)
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man (James 1:13)
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (Romans 1 18)
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities; His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became ...... (Romans 1:20-22)
Is cold the absence of heat?
Blindness the absence of sight?
Hate the absence of love?
Darkness the absence of Light?
"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."
To remain in the sea is opposite of standing on the shore; and many refuse, or are unable to climb the mountain.
God did not create evil as is perceived by man, but does cause adversity. And a catastrophe, disaster, calamity,
or times of trouble are not evil in and of themselves.
peacemaker
Quote from: Tim B on July 29, 2009, 10:16:42 PM
Quote from: jabcat on July 29, 2009, 11:18:55 AM
Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God's sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God's solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.
That's an awesome quote! And the average Christian response at the end is hilarious! xD (Albeit, the destruction it's caused is sad...)
:laughing7: I am far from your average christian, I also beleive in the restitution of all things, God sovereignty and many more things, I just see them different than others that beleive in these same things.
Quote from: rosered on July 29, 2009, 10:21:22 PM
Quote from: pneuma on July 29, 2009, 05:43:04 AM
Hi all, just stopped by to give some food for thought.
Scripture tells us the God is Love and Love worketh no evil.
Yet Isaiah 45:7 says
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
How do we reconcile these seemingly warring scriptures?
Create is bara in the Hebrew and can mean shape but can also mean to cut down.
So in light of what we know of Gods nature what does that scripture actually say.
Here is my translation of Is.45:7
I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Does that not line up better with the rest of God's word and nature?
Genesis 1:1-3
............and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
I form the light and cut down the darkness.
God bless
:thumbsup:
thanks Pneuma
I can see out of nothing/blank as darkness too as WW noted :icon_flower: and Jabs post was compelling
and I do not Judge God in this , for He does take us out of darkness and makes the LIGHT/ Knowledge of Him to Shine in our hearts :HeartThrob:
it is saving grace to me :boyheart: :girlheart:
your welcome Rose.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 29, 2009, 11:07:11 PM
God creating what we know to exist is why God is responsible, without doing so evil had no chance to exist.
This raises the point I have been trying to make in many threads over this.
Is it possible that God could have created us without any possibility of evil existing?
If so, then how does that not cause Gods loving character to be questionable?
paul all I'll say is it has to deal with the ages, sovereignty denotes kingship, and it is not until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of Christ will God will be done in the earth.
Quote from: peacemaker on July 30, 2009, 05:18:00 AM
Did God have to create evil in order to create evil in the minds of men?
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1: 5)
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man (James 1:13)
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (Romans 1 18)
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities; His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became ...... (Romans 1:20-22)
Is cold the absence of heat?
Blindness the absence of sight?
Hate the absence of love?
Darkness the absence of Light?
"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."
To remain in the sea is opposite of standing on the shore; and many refuse, or are unable to climb the mountain.
God did not create evil as is perceived by man, but does cause adversity. And a catastrophe, disaster, calamity,
or times of trouble are not evil in and of themselves.
peacemaker
:thumbsup:
More food for thought.
Here is a little story
God created the heavens and the earth. Gen.1:1
The earth became without form and void.Gen.1:2
God did not create the earth without form; He created it to be inhabited. Is.45:18
So what happened to the earth that caused it to become without form?
Gods people were foolish, sottish children with no understanding and wise to do evil. Jer.4:22
And it was when God saw that His children had no understanding and were wise to do evil that He beheld the earth and it was without form and void and the heavens had no light.Jer.4:23
The earth represents Gods sottish children with no understanding who are wise to do evil.
God beheld His children who had become without form and void (vain and empty) and darkness was upon the deep wells of man.
And God said let there be light.Gen.1:3
What happens to darkness when someone turns on a light?
It cuts down the darkness. Is.45:7
And God divided the light from the darkness.Gen.1:5
So did God create darkness and evil?
No, God cuts down the darkness with light, and God cuts down the evil with good.Is.45:7
This all happened on the first day.Gen.1:5
Gen.3 explains how it all happened.
So as God said He did NOT create the earth without form Is.45:18, why do so many believe He did?
I know I said I was going to go away, but I seen my brother peacemaker who seems beleive along the same lines I do, and I did not want to leave a man behind all alone.
I think God created man and allowed man to be capable of evil. Does this mean that God is doing the evil in man? Of course not! Did God plan, and allow for man to do evil? I would have to say: of course! Otherwise, God is not in control. And how does God not tempt? Well, He created the Devil. God made the Devil. So God is responsible for the Devil, but that doesn't mean He's committing the actions of the Devil. God uses the Devil as a part of his over all plan to bring all of creation back to Him.
So God Himself doesn't sin. But He did allow it to exist via man.
QuoteWhile we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did? Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?
Paul,
Good thought but can't agree with it.
Replace "we" with "God" and you ask the correct question.
Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.
So couldn't He have made trees that don't feel when being pruned. Or trees that don't need to be pruned at all.
I think Jesus was/is that type of tree.
Hi Tim, as I don't want to debate this all again please check out this link to see a good debate on this subject, some good thoughts on both sides.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0
That said, to give you a basic idea of what I believe I'll give a short answer to your questions
QuoteI think God created man and allowed man to be capable of evil.
I agree, it's called freewill
QuoteDid God plan, and allow for man to do evil? I would have to say: of course! Otherwise, God is not in control.
And I say no God did NOT plan for man to do evil, God planned against man doing evil, hence the commandment not to eat.
As to God being in control/His will being done, Jesus taught us to pray "thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"
Did Jesus teach us to pray a redundant prayer? I don't believe so.
Gods wills that none shall perish, YET all through scripture we read of people perishing. Thus showing Gods will is not YET being done.
So when will Gods will be done?
When the kingdoms of this earth become the kingdoms of Christ. It is than that we will see that death is swallowed up in victory, and all His will, will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
QuoteAnd how does God not tempt? Well, He created the Devil. God made the Devil. So God is responsible for the Devil, but that doesn't mean He's committing the actions of the Devil.
Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
QuoteSo God Himself doesn't sin. But He did allow it to exist via man.
Tim if God created the devil after the fashion you believe He did, and set everything to play out as it has, using satan as a tool than when satan kills he is just the gun in the hands of God. So do you blame the gun for the murder or the one who used the gun?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2009, 09:45:31 AM
QuoteWhile we may not believe that a Tree that gets pruned has feelings, but what if it did? Would we be able to spare the trees feelings and prune it in order for it to bear fruit?
Paul,
Good thought but can't agree with it.
Replace "we" with "God" and you ask the correct question.
Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.
So couldn't He have made trees that don't feel when being pruned. Or trees that don't need to be pruned at all.
I think Jesus was/is that type of tree.
Amen, Jesus is that type of tree,and God is a good tree and can only bring forth good fruit.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2009, 09:45:31 AM
Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.
Sure there are things that are impossible with God. It is impossible that God is evil.
Unless you want to disagree.
Quote from: Tim B on July 30, 2009, 09:27:37 AM
I think God created man and allowed man to be capable of evil.
In light of a limitless God there is no moral grounds for doing so.
So what would a limitless God who can do absolutely anything need to allow us to be capable of evil for?
Some will say so that we can understand Good. Well, then this limitless God could have created us with that understanding without us having to be capable of it.
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 08:10:22 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 29, 2009, 11:07:11 PM
God creating what we know to exist is why God is responsible, without doing so evil had no chance to exist.
This raises the point I have been trying to make in many threads over this.
Is it possible that God could have created us without any possibility of evil existing?
If so, then how does that not cause Gods loving character to be questionable?
paul all I'll say is it has to deal with the ages, sovereignty denotes kingship, and it is not until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of Christ will God will be done in the earth.
Not sure how that addresses whether God had a say in evils existance or not.
Quote from: peacemaker on July 30, 2009, 05:18:00 AM
"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."
Of course, there are things that just are and cannot be changed. Can a God with no limits (as our minds rationalize that) be forced to create opposites? Why does a God with no limits then choose to create an existance where the only way we know good is to know evil if he could of gave us that understanding withour doing so.
It is because people misuse their own intellect in trying to understand God in the first place.
There are opposites, because that's how it is, not because there was a design concerning it.
We learn good by experiencing bad because there is no other way to be one with God. It is how it is.
QuoteAlmost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Doesn't the first scripture I quoted, mean that He created satan and everything else?
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 03:18:57 PM
Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
That's beside the point as to Gods responsibility on the matter.
If you make a machine that indirectly hurts another are you free from liability if you knew that machine was going to do so and turned it on anyway?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2009, 09:45:31 AM
Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.
I'm not sure no is the right answer. Maybe it is. I don't know. But this is getting into the framework of logic (which I believe God created), and therefore can God do something illogical?
Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it? No, I don't think so.
Could God have created a universe where 2+2=5? I can't imagine it, it would be illogical.
Part of God's creation was bringing order out of chaos - part of this is making the universe logical. I take this to mean that God is logical.
Logically, good cannot be known or understood without understanding evil. Therefore evil needs to exist, at least temporarily.
Think about this one. God is teaching us how to love. Part of being loving is patience. Is there anyway we could learn patience quickly? :grin: Could we learn how to be patient without being patient?
Some things just have to be this way for a while, so we will learn. Then God will clean up the mess! But it is all part of God's plan, and I believe this is the best way it could have been done, because God chose this way.
Quote from: legoman on July 30, 2009, 07:03:45 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2009, 09:45:31 AM
Is anything impossible with God?
I guess the answer is no.
I'm not sure no is the right answer. This is getting into the framework of logic (which I believe God created), and therefore can God do something illogical?
I agree legoman. I was just thinking of:
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
QuoteCan God create a rock so big He can't lift it? No, I don't think so.
I asked that exact question a while ago. Some people where not thankful for it :winkgrin:
QuoteCould God have created a universe where 2+2=5? I can't imagine it, it would be illogical.
He could. It's just an agreement. Just like V+V=X
The spelling we use is also just an agreement. One that differs in many countries.
QuotePart of God's creation was bringing order out of chaos - I take this to mean that God is logical.
Genesis states that just before 'the beginning' there was nothing.
Then God started creating. So He also created chaos. With reason? Fine. I can agree with that.
QuoteLogically, good cannot be known or understood without understanding evil. Therefore evil needs to exist, at least temporarily.
Sorry but I totally disagree with that. For example it implies God didn't have a clue what evil is before He accidently created it. Yep accidently because He can't create what He doesn't know. And if it was accidently then He made a mistake.
Plus He wasn't wise enough to oversee the effects of His creating activities.
I'm
not implying anything of the above. I just give Father enough credit that He could created 10 billion people as pure as His Son.
The fact that
we can't imagine to be good without knowing evil is so we need this lesson on earth is like assuming God has a simple brain like us. I just give Him credit that He could have done otherwise.
Why he choose the good/evil method. I have zero idea about that! But I do know that stating that it has to be this way is limiting Gods powers.
:2c: :2c:
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
QuoteCould God have created a universe where 2+2=5? I can't imagine it, it would be illogical.
He could. It's just an agreement. Just like V+V=X
The spelling we use is also just an agreement. One that differs in many countries.
But I'm not talking about the spelling or symbols. I'm talking logic. If I have 2 apples, and you give me 2 more apples, do I now have 5 apples? No that's illogical. Anyway I assume you know I what I mean. No using funny base4 numbering systems either :winkgrin: (Man using Octal in university was annoying enough!)
Quote
QuoteLogically, good cannot be known or understood without understanding evil. Therefore evil needs to exist, at least temporarily.
Sorry but I totally disagree with that. For example it implies God didn't have a clue what evil is before He accidently created it. Yep accidently because He can't create what He doesn't know. And if it was accidently then He made a mistake.
Plus He wasn't wise enough to oversee the effects of His creating activities.
I'm not implying anything of the above. I just give Father enough credit that He could created 10 billion people as pure as His Son.
The fact that we can't imagine to be good without knowing evil is so we need this lesson on earth is like assuming God has a simple brain like us. I just give Him credit that He could have done otherwise.
Why he choose the good/evil method. I have zero idea about that! But I do know that stating that it has to be this way is limiting Gods powers.
:2c: :2c:
:2c:
Lost me here WW. Just because He could have done it a different way, doesn't mean it would have been the best way. Like I suppose he could have made a universe where 2+2=5, but it probably wouldn't have worked quite as well as this one! Is it limiting God because He "had" to create the universe where 2+2=4? I don't think so. He's just logical.
Anyway if you assume God wanted us to know what good is and how to love, you have to have something to compare that it against so you can understand it.
JHMO.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
I just give Father enough credit that He could created 10 billion people as pure as His Son.
This is the key point I think.
This is exactly what God is doing! We start out impure, and are being made pure. From our perspective it just seems to be taking a heck of a long time! :winkgrin:
But I'm sure once we are all in his presence this lifetime of 60-80+ years will seem like a vapor.
Quote from: legoman on July 30, 2009, 07:40:07 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
QuoteCould God have created a universe where 2+2=5? I can't imagine it, it would be illogical.
He could. It's just an agreement. Just like V+V=X
The spelling we use is also just an agreement. One that differs in many countries.
But I'm not talking about the spelling or symbols. I'm talking logic. If I have 2 apples, and you give me 2 more apples, do I now have 5 apples? No that's illogical. Anyway I assume you know I what I mean. No using funny base4 numbering systems either :winkgrin: (Man using Octal in university was annoying enough!)
I think 2+2=10 in base 4... :msealed: (Octal question 76^2 is? :laughing7:)
But seriously now. I was not trying to make a funny suggestion about base 4.
It loooks funny because you have learned otherwise.
We could have called a car "wert". But we agreed we call it "car"
Quote
QuoteLogically, good cannot be known or understood without understanding evil. Therefore evil needs to exist, at least temporarily.
Sorry but I totally disagree with that. For example it implies God didn't have a clue what evil is before He accidently created it. Yep accidently because He can't create what He doesn't know. And if it was accidently then He made a mistake.
Plus He wasn't wise enough to oversee the effects of His creating activities.
I'm not implying anything of the above. I just give Father enough credit that He could created 10 billion people as pure as His Son.
The fact that we can't imagine to be good without knowing evil is so we need this lesson on earth is like assuming God has a simple brain like us. I just give Him credit that He could have done otherwise.
Why he choose the good/evil method. I have zero idea about that! But I do know that stating that it has to be this way is limiting Gods powers.
:2c: :2c:
:2c:
QuoteLost me here WW. Just because He could have done it a different way, doesn't mean it would have been the best way. Like I suppose he could have made a universe where 2+2=5, but it probably wouldn't have worked quite as well as this one! Is it limiting God because He "had" to create the universe where 2+2=4? I don't think so. He's just logical.
No lego you haven't lost me. You seem to perfectly understand what I mean. We just draw different conclusions from the
facts.I wrote facts in italics because I'm not so sure we know the facts to begin with. We might misunderstand the Bible.
And not every shred of knowledge of God is written down in the Bible.
So we are both just drawing conclusions from incompled, skewed and polluted datasets.
Fat tails on that bell curve <grin>
QuoteAnyway if you assume God wanted us to know what good is and how to love, you have to have something to compare that it against so you can understand it.
JHMO.
Guess what I don't agree. But neither am I claiming I'm right. Right now my version seems the best to me.
Gimme 10 verses and maybe I've changed my mind completely after that. You know... larger data set :happygrin:
No problem WW, we will just disagree happily! To be honest it doesn't all make sense to me as well. Its just my best understanding.
Yes 2+2 = 10 in base 4... there is no 5 (I was grasping for an example)! Hm maybe 6+7=15 in Octal... :thumbsup: :thumbdown:
But you get what I mean about 2+2? It doesn't matter what we call it car/bus/wert/good/bad/#2/Roman Numeral II.
If I have 2 things, and I get another 2 things, I must have 4 things. There is no other way I can imagine it.
For God it is possible He could have done it another way I suppose. But it might not be the best way. Should God have picked a different way if it didn't mean so many people would be murdered and killed in wars? Maybe, but it might not have been the best way.
So should God do things the best way or the nicest way? Or perhaps in the end the best way is the nicest way (we just don't see it yet).
Peace my friend.
Just because I (or the KJV) call something by a certain term doesn't necessarily make it so. Since the "freewill" ("voluntary" as termed in the CLT) issue won't be DIRECTLY debated on the forums any longer, I would refer any interested readers to this link for some Biblically based information.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
If I believe one major precept that is not scripturally accurate, then I will probably look for all kinds of ways to make my theology fit those beliefs. I've done it and unfortunately, still do. I really think we all ought to be aware of that...the rationalizations we make to prove our points. If there was a little emoticon of a little guy raising his hand, I'd use it right here :laughing7:.
The Spirit will lead us into the truth, but based upon my experiences and everyone I know, it's apparently not instantly complete. Just read again where Paul had the dude circumcised :mshock:. Then, as we know, he later vehemently preached against it! I believe Martin has discussed "progressive revelation". The old saying, we live and learn (are taught) :thumbsup:.
(Just for the record, I believe we are accountable to, and required by God, to make choices - from a list of options He sets before us - part of the process from which we learn and grow into His grace and knowledge. I do believe however, that He is in charge of that process, shaping me more into His will, developing my will to be more in line with His. [He didn't hope for something else but was unable to pull it off]. I'm (as are we all) a work in progress. Thank God for His mercy. :bowing:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 30, 2009, 03:33:05 PM
Quote from: Tim B on July 30, 2009, 09:27:37 AM
I think God created man and allowed man to be capable of evil.
In light of a limitless God there is no moral grounds for doing so.
So what would a limitless God who can do absolutely anything need to allow us to be capable of evil for?
Some will say so that we can understand Good. Well, then this limitless God could have created us with that understanding without us having to be capable of it.
Hi Paul, I agree, God did not make us sin so we could know repentance, God did not make us evil so we could know good, we did not have to know hate to understand Love, Those are just mans thoughts because they cannot understand why we are in the mess we are in. Jesus knew good and evil but never had to enter into sin to know good and evil, Jesus knew love without knowing hate, people say ya but He is Jesus, and I say so what it proves we can know good and evil without entering into sin.
The way I see it is in order for God to make us into His image and likeness He had to give us freewill because He (God) has freewill. Without the equation of freewill man could not be made in His image and likeness. Now God is responsible for giving man freewill but He is not responsible for what man did with their freewill. For if God is responsible for what man did with his freewill than there is no freewill and we can than never be made into Gods image and likeness.
Quote from: Shadow on July 30, 2009, 04:02:08 PM
QuoteAlmost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Doesn't the first scripture I quoted, mean that He created satan and everything else?
Hi shadow I agree and have used those scriptures to show satans reconciliation.
But satan is just a title and not a proper name it means adversary.
So although God created all things, He created them good and by departing from His will they became evil.
Therefore God did not create satan(the adversary), satan created himself. Just as God never created man with sin, man disobeyed and became a sinner. Sinner is not a proper name but because of disobedience that is what man BECAME.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 30, 2009, 04:08:26 PM
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 03:18:57 PM
Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
That's beside the point as to Gods responsibility on the matter.
If you make a machine that indirectly hurts another are you free from liability if you knew that machine was going to do so and turned it on anyway?
God did not make us a puppet, a machine does not have freewill, if we were made a puppet then yes God would be responsible, but were not puppets
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 09:23:12 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 30, 2009, 04:08:26 PM
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 03:18:57 PM
Almost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
That's beside the point as to Gods responsibility on the matter.
If you make a machine that indirectly hurts another are you free from liability if you knew that machine was going to do so and turned it on anyway?
God did not make us a puppet, a machine does not have freewill, if we were made a puppet then yes God would be responsible, but were not puppets
Free will is something we agree on, but free will in and of itself doesn't get God off the hook.
If you created a machine with free will knowing that with it's free will it would kill main torture and commit evil your either responsible for letting it loose, or you are not.
Sio since God did let the machine and it's free will loose and God is still righteous, then there is more to it.
QuoteSo although God created all things, He created them good and by departing from His will they became evil.
Therefore God did not create satan(the adversary), satan created himself. Just as God never created man with sin, man disobeyed and became a sinner. Sinner is not a proper name but because of disobedience that is what man BECAME.
But He created mankind with the ability to sin. He also knew that ability would cause sin.
So why did He do that?
a] Just a flawed design.
b] It was/is part of some plan.
My point/questions is:
If God created something that He knew would sin, and with His unlimited power could have created differently, didn't He choose to create evil by embedding it in His design.
Hi Paul and WW, maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 10:07:24 PM
Hi Paul and WW, maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.
I agree with you here.
It is common for people to say "all powerful" "anything is possible" but it is all seen in the wrong perspective.
For instance, "all things are possible through christ" So it is possible that I should be able to cheat on my wife and not sin since all things are possible through christ?
The second you would assert that, it will put what is possible to the correct perspective.
On God being unlimited. If God is unlimited, then at some point God could be evil, we have no true assurance that he would not become evil because after all, it is possible.
It is actually the "limits" that we perceive as weakness that is the true strength of assurance
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 10:07:24 PM
Hi Paul and WW, maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature.
Agreed.
QuoteGod is love and love worketh no evil.
Good verse but unfortunaly I have some too :laughing7:
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Looks like a contradiction. Surely there is an explanation. But I don't know it.
If a father gave his todler a handgrenade. Who is responsible when the kid gets killed.
The kid because it pulled the pin. (=sinning) Or the father giving the grenade (putting sin/flaws in His creation)
QuoteAnother problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.
Do you think God's foreknowledge is limited? I think not.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 30, 2009, 10:24:07 PM
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 10:07:24 PM
Hi Paul and WW, maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.
I agree with you here.
It is common for people to say "all powerful" "anything is possible" but it is all seen in the wrong perspective.
For instance, "all things are possible through christ" So it is possible that I should be able to cheat on my wife and not sin since all things are possible through christ?
The second you would assert that, it will put what is possible to the correct perspective.
On God being unlimited. If God is unlimited, then at some point God could be evil, we have no true assurance that he would not become evil because after all, it is possible.
It is actually the "limits" that we perceive as weakness that is the true strength of assurance
Good points Paul. And I think this ties back to the whole idea of God being logical, and creating logic. It is not logical to say you can cheat on your wife and it not be a sin. Therefore our understanding of sin is "limited" to what it really means. Therefore God is "limited" because He set up the universe with laws (laws of logic, laws of physics, laws of sin, laws of Christ, etc.). Is this a real limitation? Like you said if God is unlimited then God could also be evil. We only have assurances because God has told us what He will do (thus limiting himself). Essentially God limits Himself because He is good.
Guess what: GOD HAS SELF-CONTROL! That's part of being LOVE.
Regarding the good/evil/who created it/free will issue:
God sent Jesus, he was sinless. He was the son of God, separate from God but still God (Don't want to start a big trinity debate)
Anyway. Why didn't God just create humanity as a billion Jesus's to start off with? Obviously He didn't, so He chose to make us with our human fallibility and sinful nature. It was God's choice and purpose to do this.
Quote from: legoman on July 30, 2009, 10:41:20 PM
Anyway. Why didn't God just create humanity as a billion Jesus's to start off with? Obviously He didn't, so He chose to make us with our human fallibility and sinful nature. It was God's choice and purpose to do this.
It's obvious he didn't but does it imply anything if he did not have to? The point I am making on the issue of limits here is that it again appears to be a limit of weakness to say that God couldn't make a billions Jesus to start with. But he can't because it is impossible to become like Jesus without going through a certain process.
Perhaps it's not about choice, perhaps inherantly God expands all the time and creation is an inherant aspect of God continually and we are in the only process that there is as there is no other way. But he can work all things that are possible to help us along the way, the written word is one.
Our carnality and unbelief will capture that and reject it because it implies weakness when as I said before, what our "ways" and our "thoughts" perceive is unimaginable strength that gives us true assurance that absolutly nothing can change our paths to perfection.
I may be saying what you are a different way, we seem to agree much over this.
while reading all these posts, this thought come to me...
I AM SEEING NOTHING BUT JACOB WRESTLING
Genesis 32;22
and he said, thy name shall no more be called Jacob,
but Israel; for as a prince, has thou power with God
and with men, and hast prevailed.
Adam's family ,wrestling with both the Holiness of God and
the man of sin..within himself and others.
and Jacob called
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2009, 01:12:32 AM
while reading all these posts, this thought come to me...
I AM SEEING NOTHING BUT JACOB WRESTLING
Genesis 32;22
and he said, thy name shall no more be called Jacob,
but Israel; for as a prince, has thou power with God
and with men, and hast prevailed.
Adam's family ,wrestling with both the Holiness of God and
the man of sin..within himself and others.
and Jacob called
Yes, and it also demonstrates more of Gods character. He wrestled with God and it appears to be for a very long time.
Don't we all?
But his life was preserved.
QuoteIt is actually the "limits" that we perceive as weakness that is the true strength of assurance
:thumbsup:
QuoteGood verse but unfortunaly I have some too
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Looks like a contradiction. Surely there is an explanation. But I don't know it.
Hi WW I already gave a different translation of Is.45:7 in the OP.
For me I look at the Father through the eyes of Jesus because every eye but His (Jesus') views the Father through shadow. Therefore any view of the Father that differs from Jesus' is not a clear view.
QuoteIf a father gave his todler a handgrenade. Who is responsible when the kid gets killed.
The kid because it pulled the pin. (=sinning) Or the father giving the grenade (putting sin/flaws in His creation)
That just it WW, I don't believe God put flaws/sins in His creation.
Freewill is not a flaw or sin because God has freewill.
QuoteDo you think God's foreknowledge is limited? I think not.
That's a hard question to answer brother, I want to say no but I view foreknowledge differently than others (big surprise in know)
Foreknowledge is not set in stone.
Example: I dream a true dream that I am going to get into a car accident tomorrow, I now have foreknowledge of the event, does that mean because I have foreknowledge of an event that the event has to come to pass? No, if I don't get into the car at all I don't get into an accident.
Jesus Himself show this to be true, He said He did not have to die on the cross if He did not want to, that He could pray to the Father and the Father would send twelve legions of angels, but He did it so that the scriptures would be fulfilled. Mt.26:53
Foreknowledge can be used in both a negative way and a positive way.
Foreknowledge is not predestination and I think that is where some come into error, thinking because God foreknew what would happen means that is what will happen.
Thus foreknowledge is limited because of the freewill of man.
Does this mean God was surprised that Adam sinned? NO
It just means God knew that Adam might sin, and as He is God He already had in place a provision to bring man back to Himself.
He is the master planner and He has a provision for every eventuality that might come up because of mans freewill.
Hi Brother Scott. It's been allowed to be mentioned multiple times, and it's clearly noted that you believe in the concept many have labeled as 'freewill'. Please steer away from directly continuing to bring it up. It's been denoted as an off-limits topic and debate on it's not allowed anymore on the forum. Debate about it is what could imminently occur if we don't move in a little different direction. It could be me doing the debating :mshock:, but I'm trying to abide by forum guidelines, so I'll ask you to please do the same. Thanks, have a great night, James. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 08:15:36 AM
I seen my brother peacemaker who seems to believe along the same lines I do, and I did not want to leave a man all alone.
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good -- Pneuma
(Re: The Potter and His clay - reply #12)
Hello, Pneuma, I am never alone as the breath of life is within my very being; after the pattern of peace, where there is no darkness.
"There would be no need for correction, if we didn't have the will of making a choice; and there would be no choice, if there weren't circumstances."
Walk into a dark room, flip the switch on and watch the darkness flee; turn it off and it will return. But it will appear to be seven times darker, until the eyes have adjusted to the darkness of the room, once again.
"I am God, there is no other, I bring forth the light and create darkness; fashion peace, and create adversity" (Isaiah 45:7)
peacemaker
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 30, 2009, 03:51:49 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on July 30, 2009, 05:18:00 AM
"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."
We learn good by experiencing bad because there is no other way to be one with God.
So, in the same vein, we learn bad by experiencing the good?
"The man who has the knowledge of doing good and does not do it, to him it is sin."
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on July 31, 2009, 05:58:34 AM
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 08:15:36 AM
I seen my brother peacemaker who seems to believe along the same lines I do, and I did not want to leave a man all alone.
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good -- Pneuma
(Re: The Potter and His clay - reply #12)
Hello, Pneuma, I am never alone as the breath of life is within my very being; after the pattern of peace, where there is no darkness.
"There would be no need for correction, if we didn't have the will of making a choice; and there would be no choice, if there weren't circumstances."
Walk into a dark room, flip the switch on and watch the darkness flee; turn it off and it will return. But it will appear to be seven times darker, until the eyes have adjusted to the darkness of the room, once again.
"I am God, there is no other, I bring forth the light and create darkness; fashion peace, and create adversity" (Isaiah 45:7)
peacemaker
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on July 31, 2009, 05:24:01 AM
Hi Brother Scott. It's been allowed to be mentioned multiple times, and it's clearly noted that you believe in the concept many have labeled as 'freewill'. Please steer away from directly continuing to bring it up. It's been denoted as an off-limits topic and debate on it's not allowed anymore on the forum. Debate about it is what could imminently occur if we don't move in a little different direction. It could be me doing the debating :mshock:, but I'm trying to abide by forum guidelines, so I'll ask you to please do the same. Thanks, have a great night, James. :HeartThrob:
Hi jab, I understand your concern and I try my best not to debate the freewill issue on tents as I know it is a taboo issue here.
But to not even be allowed to mention freewill basically shuts me down, for although freewill is not the main issue of what I am speaking about it does have bearing on how I see things.
So how do I explain what I see when I am asked a question, if I am limited in explaining what I see?
I don't use freewill in order to debate it Jab, but to express how I see things when asked a question.
Years ago on one of Gary's old tent boards Gary placed a taboo on the Law, I became upset with this and told him so, but without telling him why, Gary banned me from tents, I take full responsibility for the ban because I should have been more tactful in the manner I approached him, and should have explained the reason why.
But while I was banned I emailed Gary and told him how I view the law as the second death and by him making the law taboo he was basically hindering me from teaching the restitution of all things.
Once Gary realised this was the reason why I became upset, he reinstated me on tents. I was not allowed to debate the law but I was allowed to mention it as it held sway on the way I see how God is to bring about the restitution of all things.
So what do I do? Gary at that time allowed the mention of a taboo subject but not the debate of it, which we both thought was a good compromise.
So again brother what do I do? Do I go by what Gary allowed then, or has Gary changed the rule altogether and a taboo cannot even be made mention of.
Can you see the relevance of what happened then to what is happening now? Except I am trying to explain myself in a tactful manner so that everything is out in the open before a final decision is made on this matter.
God bless
I understand the dilemma. It's a dilemma for me as well. A little while back it was stated that there were a couple of hot button issues that would be off-limits for discussion, and free will was one of them. The thing is, I believe there are ways to discuss our beliefs (mostly) without using (repeatedly) certain hot-button specific words. I won't count :bigGrin: but there have been several repeated uses of the specific term free will in this thread. Just being honest, being VERY human, I for one, do get my buttons pushed with that. Trying to be a) reasonable, b) tolerant, c) charitable, I bite my tongue, say a prayer, and try to not get too insane with it (I haven't gone all Gary on you - just kidding Gary - don't ban me :laughing7:.) So a mention (or even a few) is allowed, I personally may make a statement showing what I believe to be a more accurate "other side" view of it, then hope it settles. But if you'll admit (and count :winkgrin:) you've tossed it out there several times now pretty quickly. Not just the idea, but the specific term - the term of which has a history of causing some major problems. It's actually been loosened a little, with a mention or two and a little discussion allowed (which I PERSONALLY disagree with) but the mod team decided a while back (with Gary's suggestion and blessing) that we just weren't going to go there or let things even approach a level of the problems that occured in the past.
Let me give you an example from my perspective. If I started a thread, and said, oh, 5 or 6 times in 5 or 6 posts "man doesn't have free will. We have a will, man's will, that is basically against God's will until God shapes it, as He humbles us and teaches us to follow Him. But it's not free. Man doesn't have free will. He has a limited will that only operates within paramaters an all-Soverign God allows and creates the circumstances and possibilities within which it can function. But there's no free will." That's not just a passing mention, it's "hammering on the point". I would be a) breaking forum guidelines, and b) pushing people's buttons and just kicking the door open for a fight.
So here's my suggestion. Talk about what you believe much of which (I perceive) is built around/connected to the freewill issue. Many will agree and see what you're getting at. Some will disagree, know what you're getting at, but not get quite so agitated and ready to give you heck because you won't be "rubbing salt in the wound" by repeatedly pushing the hot button that sends them through the ceiling. YES, we/I all need to work on having more self control, more charity, more tolerance....on the other hand, IMO, none of us should be (even inadvertently) "rubbing anyone else's nose in it", either.
Think about it, get back with me. It's been public, so I left it public, but if we need to we can go to PM.
God's blessings, James.
QuoteSo here's my suggestion. Talk about what you believe much of which (I perceive) is built around/connected to the freewill issue. Many will agree and see what you're getting at. Some will disagree, know what you're getting at, but not get quite so agitated and ready to give you heck because you won't be "rubbing salt in the wound" by repeatedly pushing the hot button that sends them through the ceiling. YES, we/I all need to work on having more self control, more charity, more tolerance....on the other hand, IMO, none of us should be (even inadvertently) "rubbing anyone else's nose in it", either.
Think about it, get back with me. It's been public, so I left it public, but if we need to we can go to PM.
No need to take it to PM brother, I see your point, I'll try to limit it to when someone asks me a question where I can only answer by speaking of my belief in freewill.
Is that expectable?
God bless
Thanks for your understanding. I'm not saying "pneuma, you better not ever let that word slip out of your mouth!" :bigGrin:. I am saying I bet that 99% of the time I can express my POV without saying "Bob, man does not have freewill, it's a limited will - man's will rather than God's will. Yep, that's the way I see it; no free will". I can make my point (even being a bit of smart-aleck :mblush:) by saying, "if you think it's up to you, then save yourself". Never used any terms/labels, point still probably made (even though expressing it like that, you'd probably still want to smack me :laughing7:). Anyway, it's an example. A bad one - but an example.
And conversely, I bet 99% of the time you can express your POV without saying "Sally, man has freewill and I sure do believe it, yes sir, we got ourselves a dose of freewill". Not telling you what to say, you're quite capable; and you may say it quite a bit different than this. But just as an example to express my point, I could see you saying something like "I believe we have to make choices, God requires it, He hold us accountable, etc". Never used the hot-button term, point made, and able to stay on point rather than veer into a "freewill!"/"not-freewill!", "freewill, Stupid!"/"not-freewill, Stupid!" food fight. A little extra creativity, a little extra consideration, etc., still basically able to say what we all believe.
Also, as I type what I see as a possible example of you stating your beliefs, I would actually personally find common ground there. No real need to fight. I could say "Amen brother" to your statement, then we could move along further into the main points of the discussion.
The main thing is, a time or two in passing to answer a question or set a premise is one thing - that even though it's an off-limits topic, we'd probably blink and let it slide. But bringing it up over and over, multiple times in a short "conversation", is likely to be waving honey around in front of bears, the bears are gon'na head for the honey jar, and somebody's gonna end up getting clawed or bit!
Give it some thought, don't feel smacked around, but do realize it's a serious issue and is regarded as such. We can do this without posts starting to get cut and all that jazz.
We are brothers and sisters here, and God is helping me see that I need to act like it (for a change :laughing7:). We can do it!
God's blessings, James.
willieH: Hi WW & Pneuma... :hithere:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2009, 11:17:51 PM
I agree Paul.
Why would an all powerful God that despises evil for some reason (a plan) create/allow/support evil.
Answer like "must be for His plan" or "to teach us" don't really answer that because infinite power means He could have bypassed it.
Mystery for me.
I don't see it as a mystery at all bro...
I think the answer is simple... Why did He create ANY opposing thing? Up vs Down for instance? What makes UP, ...UP? -- Is not "DOWN" required in order for "UP" to indicated as an existant thing?
Each subjective "knowledge" is ONE knowledge containing BOTH sides of the sword. "Up" is and only can be known as, "Up" ...because Down exists and vice versa... they are by necessity TIED together as ONE observance... The KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil are NOT 2 knowledges, they are 2 aspects of ONE knowledge.
GOD has, within His wisdom, created ALL THINGS... and it does not matter whether or not a "created entity" (such as ourselves), questions that agenda, as is plainly noted in
Rom 9:20Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so... and in the end it does not matter, for HE created, controls and sustains ALL THINGS... as
HE so chooses to "create, control and sustain" them... :dontknow: ...and our approval or objection to those things, is irrelevant.
I guess it is just our good fortune that He is LOVE and GRACE... and we must be dependent upon those characteristics to keep that which might cause us concern as FINITE observers, in check. (such as the fact that, He created EVIL)
There is COMPLETE PURPOSE in God's agenda, which none of us can see in total... and that AGENDA is subject to, and manifests of -- HIS CHOOSING which is found within ETERNAL WISDOM.
All we need to do is do what we were created for: PRAISING :bowing: HIM! :declare: In THANKSGIVING... :cloud9:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: willieH on August 01, 2009, 03:21:57 AM
Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so
We have every right to work out what God's character is and that is what is going on here.
Believers in the idea that Gods character fries human beings in an eternal hell use that argument all the time.
Pneuma,
Very profound. I'm really glad you decided to share this. One way I look at it is that in order for God to manifest his essence "Love and Light" - there must needs be resistance to that which HE IS in order to manifest His glory. In that way, God 'creates evil' or brings about resistance from all sides. God cannot possibly be of an evil mind or anything that is not pure (as some teach).
Anne
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 04:00:19 AM
Quote from: willieH on August 01, 2009, 03:21:57 AM
Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so
We have every right to work out what God's character is and that is what is going on here.
Believers in the idea that Gods character fries human beings in an eternal hell use that argument all the time.
Paul,
I totally agree. Our search for faith is all about questioning God's character. WillieH. - have you never read the book of Job?
Anne
"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."
In other words, the opposite of air is the absence of air; try not to breathe.
Just a Dive-Master, speaking from experience!
Thus, the opposite of gravity is the absence of it, and without gravity we would
continue to fall away into utter darkness (literally and figuratively).
peacemaker
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 04:00:19 AM
Quote from: willieH on August 01, 2009, 03:21:57 AM
Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so
We have every right to work out what God's character is and that is what is going on here.
Believers in the idea that Gods character fries human beings in an eternal hell use that argument all the time.
:thumbsup: I agree because Gods character seems to get assinated all the time
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 01, 2009, 05:32:41 AM
Pneuma,
Very profound. I'm really glad you decided to share this. One way I look at it is that in order for God to manifest his essence "Love and Light" - there must needs be resistance to that which HE IS in order to manifest His glory. In that way, God 'creates evil' or brings about resistance from all sides. God cannot possibly be of an evil mind or anything that is not pure (as some teach).
Anne
your welcome sis
Quote from: peacemaker on August 01, 2009, 09:52:58 AM
"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."
In other words, the opposite of air is the absence of air; try not to breathe.
Just a Dive-Master, speaking from experience!
Thus, the opposite of gravity is the absence of it, and without gravity we would
continue to fall away into utter darkness (literally and figuratively).
peacemaker
:thumbsup:
QuoteThat limitation of God makes him only liable for creation, he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.
There are sooo many hardships in this life, and, in the U.S. where we live, we probably have not seen too many of them compared to other parts of the world. I do find some comfort in the fact that God placed Himself down here in the mess to experience it for Himself. He knows what we go through because He went through it too..more than most of us because most of us, though some have, don't have to give our lives for our faith. Being persuaded of God's unexplainable love for His creation and His plan for a happy ending helps eliminate hard feeling toward Him for the present human situation. We, who know that love, should be trying ever harder to make it known to eveybody we come in contact with.
Debbie
Quote from: dboutwell on August 01, 2009, 09:25:49 PM
QuoteThat limitation of God makes him only liable for creation, he grieves because he knows what we go through, but he spoke us into existance despite what we would HAVE to go through because in the end, we will be glad for the gift of life he gave us.
There are sooo many hardships in this life, and, in the U.S. where we live, we probably have not seen too many of them compared to other parts of the world. I do find some comfort in the fact that God placed Himself down here in the mess to experience it for Himself. He knows what we go through because He went through it too..more than most of us because most of us, though some have, don't have to give our lives for our faith. Being persuaded of God's unexplainable love for His creation and His plan for a happy ending helps eliminate hard feeling toward Him for the present human situation. We, who know that love, should be trying ever harder to make it known to eveybody we come in contact with.
Debbie
Amen, sis.
Excellent post.
Thank you.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 04:00:19 AM
Quote from: willieH on August 01, 2009, 03:21:57 AM
Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so
We have every right to work out what God's character is and that is what is going on here.
Believers in the idea that Gods character fries human beings in an eternal hell use that argument all the time.
I didn't speak against
that Paul... :dontknow:
I did not say that we cannot or should not observe the character of God...
I
said that if we
QUESTION that character, then we have stepped "out of bounds"... :laughing7:
For the
WORD says --
"shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that formed, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS?" --
Rom 9:20What I am saying is after your or my
"examination" of that character, it does not line up with what WE consider as "acceptable"... Such is NOT our determination OR RIGHT, to make.
For the Scripture also says just before the portion I just quoted --
"Nay, but O MAN, ...WHO are THOU that repliest [talks back] AGAINST God?" --
Rom 9:20...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: willieH on August 01, 2009, 10:36:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 04:00:19 AM
Quote from: willieH on August 01, 2009, 03:21:57 AM
Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so
We have every right to work out what God's character is and that is what is going on here.
Believers in the idea that Gods character fries human beings in an eternal hell use that argument all the time.
I didn't speak against that Paul... :dontknow:
I did not say that we cannot or should not observe the character of God...
I said that if we QUESTION that character, then we have stepped "out of bounds"... :laughing7:
For the WORD says -- "shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that formed, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS?" -- Rom 9:20
What I am saying is after your or my "examination" of that character, it does not line up with what WE consider as "acceptable"... Such is NOT our determination OR RIGHT, to make.
For the Scripture also says just before the portion I just quoted -- "Nay, but O MAN, ...WHO are THOU that repliest [talks back] AGAINST God?" -- Rom 9:20
...willieH :HeartThrob:
I am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am. I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.
I do not question that and accept it easily.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 10:49:59 PM
Quote from: willieH on August 01, 2009, 10:36:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 04:00:19 AM
Quote from: willieH on August 01, 2009, 03:21:57 AM
Even if it "strikes you or I" to question God's "character"... we have no RIGHT to do so
We have every right to work out what God's character is and that is what is going on here.
Believers in the idea that Gods character fries human beings in an eternal hell use that argument all the time.
I didn't speak against that Paul... :dontknow:
I did not say that we cannot or should not observe the character of God...
I said that if we QUESTION that character, then we have stepped "out of bounds"... :laughing7:
For the WORD says -- "shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that formed, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS?" -- Rom 9:20
What I am saying is after your or my "examination" of that character, it does not line up with what WE consider as "acceptable"... Such is NOT our determination OR RIGHT, to make.
For the Scripture also says just before the portion I just quoted -- "Nay, but O MAN, ...WHO are THOU that repliest [talks back] AGAINST God?" -- Rom 9:20
...willieH :HeartThrob:
I am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am. I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.
I do not question that and accept it easily.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 10:49:59 PM
I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness." :declare:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 02, 2009, 12:33:41 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 10:49:59 PM
I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness." :declare:
Hi PM I think that is what Paul was saying, at least thats the way understood him.
Quote from: pneuma on August 02, 2009, 02:46:36 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on August 02, 2009, 12:33:41 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 10:49:59 PM
I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness." :declare:
I think that is what Paul was saying, at least that's the way I understood him.
Indeed, that's what I thought he declared :declare: And I am in agreement with him. :gthumbsup:
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 10:07:24 PM
... maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.
Ask questions from the heart; they will be answered.
Personally, I have never been to either camp, which I respectfully submit as I have always been "caught-up" between them . Having the knowledge from the beginning of the Reconciliation of All Things and an understanding of "Hell No We Won't Go" there.
"There is no choice in absolute perfection, only in that which is imperfect at present."
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on August 02, 2009, 05:27:25 AM
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 10:07:24 PM
... maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.
Ask questions from the heart; they will be answered.
Personally, I have never been to either camp, which I respectfully submit as I have always been "caught-up" between them . Having the knowledge from the beginning of the Reconciliation of All Things and an understanding of "Hell No We Won't Go" there.
"There is no choice in absolute perfection, only in that which is imperfect at present."
peacemaker
Hi PM not sure I understand ya, are you saying God does not have a choice about saving us, that He has to because of His nature?
If so I am on board with that.
Quote from: pneuma on August 02, 2009, 04:09:42 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on August 02, 2009, 05:27:25 AM
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 10:07:24 PM
... maybe part of the problem is looking at God with unlimited power.
God cannot sin, cannot fail, cannot lie; therefore, his power is limited by His nature.
I don't believe God can do anything outside of His nature. God is love and love worketh no evil.
Another problem might be our understand of God foreknowledge and predestination, I don't have all the answer, but I think if we understood Gods foreknowledge it might help us understand this stuff better.
Ask questions from the heart; they will be answered.
Personally, I have never been to either camp, which I respectfully submit as I have always been "caught-up" between them . Having the knowledge from the beginning of the Reconciliation of All Things and an understanding of "Hell No We Won't Go" there.
"There is no choice in absolute perfection, only in that which is imperfect at present."
... not sure I understand ya, are you saying God does not have a choice about saving us, that He has to because of His nature?
If so I am on board with that.
The choice to do as he pleases, is His; anything less is not Sovereign.
However, He's not just sovereign only—He is Holy!
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 10:49:59 PMI am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am. I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.
IMO there is no evidence that "He planned" anything... HE is working ALL THINGS, and WE are amongst what amounts to, "ALL THINGS" --
Eph 1:11GOD did not "plan" for you (or I) to sin but you (and I)
do, because His FOREKNOWLEDGE of "your (and my) sin" ...ORDAINED that you (and I) comply with that FOREKNOWLEDGE...
Rom 9:11What GOD "Foreknows" cannot occur otherwise... and His perfect "FOREKNOWLEDGE" is NOT determined by US (imperfect "decision makers") and our doings... it is the other way around... :dontknow:
That is how I see it, ...each of us have a viewpoint of this...
both have the potential to be inaccurate... :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: willieH on August 03, 2009, 09:31:59 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 10:49:59 PMI am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am. I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.
IMO there is no evidence that "He planned" anything... HE is working ALL THINGS, and WE are amongst what amounts to, "ALL THINGS" -- Eph 1:11
Hi Willie,
Perhaps "planned" is not an accurate word, my point comes from two verses.
The first is Proverbs 5:21 the word "ponder" or "consider" seems to be the words used in the translations I have looked at, but the definitions primary meaning is "To prepare the way" which implies at least some similar concept.
The second is
1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Not every thing man conceives of is possible even for God. For instance, if I read a verse that says "all things are possible through Christ who strengthens me" I then can feel all goose bumpy about that, but if I then say, well since all things are possible then through Christ I should be able to cheat on my wife and not sin. So we soon prove that all things are not possible and that ALL in this issue has a context.
It is these cliche phrases that Christians don't really think about much that gets them into theological trouble. God does have what "appears" to us as limits, but it is irrelevant that we perceive them as such. The verse that "God creates evil" has been so literalized that few see that God is responsible for evil because he set forth creation, but creation was set forth on a journey to perfection, but there are things that must be in order to get us there and God cannot change them. So evil is real, it is as real as we are, but it is not a result of God purposely making evil if in his limitless power did not have to.
God simply says, "Look here, your experiencing evil and there is no other way for you to be like me, that's just how it is, you will understand one day as there is no other way. It is my fault because I started this, but do not fear as it has no power to prevent your arrival in my arms"
Quote
GOD did not "plan" for you (or I) to sin but you (and I) do, because His FOREKNOWLEDGE of "your (and my) sin" ...ORDAINED that you (and I) comply with that FOREKNOWLEDGE... Rom 9:11
I agree that God did not plan for us to sin. We sin because even God cannot change the path we are on to righteousness. He prepared for what must be so that nothing can fail to get us there.
Quote
What GOD "Foreknows" cannot occur otherwise... and His perfect "FOREKNOWLEDGE" is NOT determined by US (imperfect "decision makers") and our doings... it is the other way around... :dontknow:
Foreknowlege in the realm of a being who can see beginning to end does not mean we were not free to choose from the preferences of our own will, it simply means that God was able to ensure that freedom could not derail salvation for each of us. But as we know, many of us took a wide path of destruction before coming to believe and some actually took a much narrower path.
The moral question concerning some views about this issue then is rightly raised as I have explained in other posts in this thread.
Quote
That is how I see it, ...each of us have a viewpoint of this... both have the potential to be inaccurate... :dontknow:
Of course, the main point I made with what you said is that the right to question "God" is more about questioning what we perceive or what we are told by others.
If I disagree and question what you say to me I think you know that is not the same as questioning God.
So perhaps the question is, at what point are we actually questioning our maker in opposition to where scripture makes a mention of the futility of such?
HUH???
Paul, I know I'm not involved in your discussion with willieH but,
if you please, would you please rephrase your last line.
Thanks.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 04, 2009, 06:21:50 AM
HUH???
Paul, I know I'm not involved in your discussion with willieH but,
if you please, would you please rephrase your last line.
Thanks.
I'll try, if it is said we do not have the right to question God then when can it be known that we are questioning the very maker himself and not just questioning the aspect of what someone says God is.
Hope that helps.
Job 11:7
"Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
Psalm 145:3
Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom.
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.
Are these scripts on topic?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 04, 2009, 06:47:26 AM
Job 11:7
"Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
Psalm 145:3
Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom.
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.
Are these scripts on topic?
Certainly are.
I know that God is Love, and to love my enemies is not something I actually can fathom. I am glad God is greater than my understanding.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUd4-dxAm-E
just listen Paul.
We need to take on His nature.
But, it's His doing, not ours.
A hardened heart has no room for His birth.
And Christ will not rise from a tomb of unforgiveness.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 04, 2009, 07:21:05 AM
just listen Paul.
We need to take on His nature.
But, it's His doing, not ours.
A hardened heart has no room for His birth.
And Christ will not rise from a tomb of unforgiveness.
So, you do not like what I am saying so I have a hardened heart and am in unforgivness?
I am not watching the video. Youtube, the new church.
I was simply addressing your statement: " to love my enemies is not something I actually can fathom."
That's all.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 04, 2009, 05:40:44 PM
I was simply addressing your statement: " to love my enemies is not something I actually can fathom."
That's all.
Alright, but then you appear to be saying I can based on a youtube video after posting verses showing our inability to fathom God.
And make comments using the words hardheartedness and unforgiveness without explaining what my comment did to cause you to use them.
Just FYI I do not watch youtube videos for much more than entertainment and no offense, but youtube seems to be taking the place of believers fellowship. Just my opinion, but if you need to tell me something, then tell me.
It not that I do not see the concept of loving an enemy, it is not that I hate my enemies nor am I unforgiving towards them but to pretend to fathom the depths at which God does is not something I will do.
Understood.
And the video is just a beautiful song.
Music has a wonderful affect on me, I thought I would share something beautiful.
My option is that that statement is true and that God did and does create evil, now also the sin issue pasted in to this equation is if sin is evil, God dose use evil for good, but talking to Jews at the age of Law,(before the time of Christ) all Gentiles were dogs and "had" no part in the giving of life, IF they followed the law, so THEN God used evil to sway His chosen and NOW uses evil to sway His Grace Chosen people, Non-followers of Law, All 640 of them.
Hartley Damboise II @ sinfree@gmx.com
Adult only email me if you chose
Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 04, 2009, 07:32:50 PM
My option is that that statement is true and that God did and does create evil, now also the sin issue pasted in to this equation is if sin is evil, God dose use evil for good, but talking to Jews at the age of Law,(before the time of Christ) all Gentiles were dogs and "had" no part in the giving of life, IF they followed the law, so THEN God used evil to sway His chosen and NOW uses evil to sway His Grace Chosen people, Non-followers of Law, All 640 of them.
Hartley Damboise II @ sinfree@gmx.com
Adult only email me if you chose
to the bolded: in whose eyes?
(just want to clarify where you're coming from)
and why do you say "all 640 of them"? EDIT: oh nevermind! lol. you're talking about LAWS. 640 laws. I thought you were talking about 640 grace-chosen people. :laughing7: I read it wrong.
willieH: Hi Paul... :icon_king:
Quote from: willieH on August 03, 2009, 09:31:59 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2009, 10:49:59 PMI am who I am and I do not ask God why I am who i am. I know from learning of Gods character that it did not enter his mind to command me to sin, but he planned for my actions knowing what I would do so there was no chance that my action could keep me from him.
IMO there is no evidence that "He planned" anything... HE is working ALL THINGS, and WE are amongst what amounts to, "ALL THINGS" -- Eph 1:11
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 04, 2009, 06:13:59 AMHi Willie,
Perhaps "planned" is not an accurate word, my point comes from two verses.
The first is Proverbs 5:21 the word "ponder" or "consider" seems to be the words used in the translations I have looked at, but the definitions primary meaning is "To prepare the way" which implies at least some similar concept.
One of the things about a "PLAN" is that it can be disruppted or fail... however, in THIS CASE... ALL THINGS are already NOTED in PERFECTION (by GOD's perfect DECLARATION made by his PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE), and are according to that PERFECT PREPARATION... which cannot fail to accomplish the PURPOSE for which they are intended...
Is not the idea of "PREPARED" an observation of something which is ALREADY in place? The word "PONDERETH" [#H6424] PALAC which means to ROLL FLAT or
PREPARE... rather than
"CONSIDER"...
If one is PREPARING, then that PREPARATION (what is
IN PLACE) is that which is "CONSIDERED", rather than the "arrival" of the one which "experiences" that which was "PREPARED" and "in place"... :dontknow:
I play music, and oftentimes go ahead of the performance to set the equipment up... PREPARING to (later on) play the music... When I arrive for the performance, the equipment, which is already IN PLACE is the vehicle upon which the performance "rides"... So is the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD, the preparation of what we "DO"... which entails the PERFECT accomplishment of His Purpose FOR US...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 04, 2009, 06:13:59 AMThe second is
1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Not every thing man conceives of is possible even for God.
Might I interrupt for a moment -- NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE
for or with, GOD... NOTHING! That a given observer of GOD's movements considers something IMPOSSIBLE for GOD, is about the LACK of the ability to completely observe, NOT that something is able to be concieved by Man, and because man percieves it to be IMPOSSIBLE, he therefore determines it NOT POSSIBLE for God. :mnah:
This is a variation of thought, such as the -- "can God make a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift" type of observation which is often made sarcastically by Athiests... Is easily answerable. The answer being YES... but it is not due to GOD being unable to LIFT it... it is due to HIS ORDAINATION that NO ONE,
including Himself, is to LIFT IT, according to HIS WILL and PURPOSE... :dontknow:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 04, 2009, 06:13:59 AMFor instance, if I read a verse that says "all things are possible through Christ who strengthens me" I then can feel all goose bumpy about that, but if I then say, well since all things are possible then through Christ I should be able to cheat on my wife and not sin. So we soon prove that all things are not possible and that ALL in this issue has a context.
ALL things that are POSSIBLE "through
CHRIST" do NOT include "cheating on ones wife", Paul... Those "ALL THINGS" are in accordance with the standard of morality within GOD, which does not include those TRANSGRESSIONS of that "standard"...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 04, 2009, 06:13:59 AMIt is these cliche phrases that Christians don't really think about much that gets them into theological trouble. God does have what "appears" to us as limits, but it is irrelevant that we perceive them as such. The verse that "God creates evil" has been so literalized that few see that God is responsible for evil because he set forth creation, but creation was set forth on a journey to perfection, but there are things that must be in order to get us there and God cannot change them. So evil is real, it is as real as we are, but it is not a result of God purposely making evil if in his limitless power did not have to.
It is not a question of "God cannot change them", ... it is that God had ORDAINED them to BE... and they AS THEY ARE, are not IN NEED of "change"...
Obviously within God's LIMITLESS power, it is NECESSARY according to DIVINE DECREE (declaring the end from the beginning -
Isaiah 46:10)... That "we" should observe this journey as UNNECESSARY only notes our inability to "see" the BIG (Divine) Picture... :dontknow:
Quote God simply says, "Look here, your experiencing evil and there is no other way for you to be like me, that's just how it is, you will understand one day as there is no other way. It is my fault because I started this, but do not fear as it has no power to prevent your arrival in my arms"
Not sure what version or where this quote is located, so I'll reserve commentary on it. :happygrin:
Quote from: willieHGOD did not "plan" for you (or I) to sin but you (and I) do, because His FOREKNOWLEDGE of "your (and my) sin" ...ORDAINED that you (and I) comply with that FOREKNOWLEDGE... Rom 9:11
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 04, 2009, 06:13:59 AMI agree that God did not plan for us to sin. We sin because even God cannot change the path we are on to righteousness. He prepared for what must be so that nothing can fail to get us there.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: willieHWhat GOD "Foreknows" cannot occur otherwise... and His perfect "FOREKNOWLEDGE" is NOT determined by US (imperfect "decision makers") and our doings... it is the other way around... :dontknow:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 04, 2009, 06:13:59 AMForeknowlege in the realm of a being who can see beginning to end does not mean we were not free to choose from the preferences of our own will, it simply means that God was able to ensure that freedom could not derail salvation for each of us.
That is your opinion brother P... and you are welcome to it... however... That GOD PERFECTLY "FOREKNEW" all that MEN (who had yet to exist), would DO... cannot ALTER that FOREKNOWLEDGE -- via any "decisions" those men would make, when they eventually came to "exist".
IOW... the car is designed to start upon the ignition key being turned... and the manufacturer has built it to THAT SPECIFICATION... that the "purchaser" of the car, eventually TURNS the key, does NOT make him the innovator of this parameter (the key starting the car) by his "decision" to -- turn it... :laughing7:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 04, 2009, 06:13:59 AMBut as we know, many of us took a wide path of destruction before coming to believe and some actually took a much narrower path.
And ALL those "pathways" are being chosen by GOD to UNFOLD they way HE foreknew them, as they unfold... As is PLAINLY noted in
Rom 9:11 and DETAILED in the verses following.
Quote from: willieHThat is how I see it, ...each of us have a viewpoint of this... both have the potential to be inaccurate... :dontknow:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 04, 2009, 06:13:59 AMOf course, the main point I made with what you said is that the right to question "God" is more about questioning what we perceive or what we are told by others.
If I disagree and question what you say to me I think you know that is not the same as questioning God.
So perhaps the question is, at what point are we actually questioning our maker in opposition to where scripture makes a mention of the futility of such?
I guess we shall find out one day brother Paul... For now, I believe we each walk a pathway which is ORDAINED by God that we walk... and each pathway is directly or indirectly interconnected to everyone else which is -- GOD working all things
"with us all", for HIS PURPOSE to be accomplished,
"for us all"...
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: willieH on August 04, 2009, 11:05:49 PM
Is not the idea of "PREPARED" an observation of something which is ALREADY in place? The word "PONDERETH" [#H6424] PALAC which means to ROLL FLAT or PREPARE... rather than "CONSIDER"...
Yes, because he saw what we would do with our will before hand. None of this prevent us from being individuals that are trained to be one with God.
QuoteMight I interrupt for a moment -- NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for or with, GOD... NOTHING!
Then God can become evil and most likely is if he ordained rape murder and all the other horrible things man does to one another if he did not have to.
QuoteI guess we shall find out one day brother Paul
I'm not afraid of finding out,. in fact I look forward to it.
While researching something, I came across this (what I thought to be) interesting opinion. From the 'Ancient Hebrew Research Center' - http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_goodbad.html
"Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).
It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil" it is usually the Hebrew word "ra" which simply means "bad". In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an "evil" person or thing. To understand the words "good" and "bad" from a more Hebraic understanding these words should be understood as "functional" and "dysfunctional". God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as the destruction of the flood).
Our western mind classifies all things in two categories, either it is "good" or it is "bad". One is to be sought, cherished and protected, the other is to be rejected, spurned and discarded. Let us take light and darkness as an example. We see light as good and darkness as bad. The idea of light brings to mind such things as God, truth and love. Darkness on the other hand invokes Satan, lies and hate. To the Orientals, including the Hebrews, both are equally necessary as one cannot exist without the other. In the Bible God is seen as a God of light as well as darkness "And the people stood at a distance and Moses approached the heavy darkness where God was." (Exodus 20:21). If you stare at the sun, which is pure light, what happens? You become blind. If you are standing in a sealed room with no light, what happens? You are again blind. Therefore, both light and darkness are bad and yet, both are good. In order to see we must block out some of the light as well as some of the darkness.
The two poles of a magnet are north and south. These two poles create balance, they are not morally good or bad, but necessary ingredients of physics that compliment each other. Good and bad are more like the north and south poles of a magnet than our Western conception of good and bad.
Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not, how could you judge something to be good if you cannot compare it to something bad? The same is true for all other concepts. Cold cannot exist without heat, or short without tall, far without near, or large without small. Our western mind usually ignores these extremes and seeks to always find the "good" or the "bad". The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said "Do not be overly righteous" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).
Throughout the scriptures this search for balance is found, yet ignored by Westerners who do not understand the significance of balance." - AHRC
Oh God, You are my God
and I will ever praise You...
I will seek You in the morning
I will learn to walk in Your ways
and STEP BY STEP You'll lead me
and I will follow You all of my days
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 01:00:52 AM
Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not ...
Ahhh! The heat-cold argument of good and evil, so just how cold is "cold?"
Absolute zero, is -273.15 degrees Celsius; approximately the temperature at which all molecules stop moving entirely. But what about 20 billionths of a degree above absolute zero?
Maybe a bit, warmer, you think? Having movement, perhaps?
How dark is dark? Can dark be made to be darker? Or lighter?
Cold is present when there is absolutely no heat.
Darkness is present when there is absolutely no light.
And Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual.
Are we only to consider the premise of duality, that of interchanging; good and evil?
"Let us not be polarized and magnetized within two conflicting or contrasting positions."
A lesser degree of that which IS? (IMO)
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on August 05, 2009, 04:41:10 AM
Are we only to consider the premise of duality, that of interchanging; good and evil?
"Let us not be polarized and magnetized within two conflicting or contrasting positions."
The whole premise as I understand it, is the working of all things toward
balance. The working of ALL things for our good. I just believe we often try really hard to make what God says fit what I am only temporarily capable of thinking and understanding. He's just a whole lot bigger than that, and He'll show us more as He brings our wills into His...step by step :thumbsup:.
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 01:00:52 AM
While researching something, I came across this (what I thought to be) interesting opinion. From the 'Ancient Hebrew Research Center' - http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_goodbad.html
"Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).
It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil" it is usually the Hebrew word "ra" which simply means "bad". In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an "evil" person or thing. To understand the words "good" and "bad" from a more Hebraic understanding these words should be understood as "functional" and "dysfunctional". God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as the destruction of the flood).
Our western mind classifies all things in two categories, either it is "good" or it is "bad". One is to be sought, cherished and protected, the other is to be rejected, spurned and discarded. Let us take light and darkness as an example. We see light as good and darkness as bad. The idea of light brings to mind such things as God, truth and love. Darkness on the other hand invokes Satan, lies and hate. To the Orientals, including the Hebrews, both are equally necessary as one cannot exist without the other. In the Bible God is seen as a God of light as well as darkness "And the people stood at a distance and Moses approached the heavy darkness where God was." (Exodus 20:21). If you stare at the sun, which is pure light, what happens? You become blind. If you are standing in a sealed room with no light, what happens? You are again blind. Therefore, both light and darkness are bad and yet, both are good. In order to see we must block out some of the light as well as some of the darkness.
The two poles of a magnet are north and south. These two poles create balance, they are not morally good or bad, but necessary ingredients of physics that compliment each other. Good and bad are more like the north and south poles of a magnet than our Western conception of good and bad.
Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not, how could you judge something to be good if you cannot compare it to something bad? The same is true for all other concepts. Cold cannot exist without heat, or short without tall, far without near, or large without small. Our western mind usually ignores these extremes and seeks to always find the "good" or the "bad". The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said "Do not be overly righteous" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).
Throughout the scriptures this search for balance is found, yet ignored by Westerners who do not understand the significance of balance." - AHRC
Oh God, You are my God
and I will ever praise You...
I will seek You in the morning
I will learn to walk in Your ways
and STEP BY STEP You'll lead me
and I will follow You all of my days
The lessons can last forever...
but the "bad" does not last forever.
This is the same as someone tried to argue before about there is no evil, it's all in our minds, or how we perceive it. Evil isn't evil, it just is. Just as good is. It's neutral. Yeah, right. Tell that to someone who was just raped.
Is rape going to go on forever? So we'll ALWAYS know the difference between violent, selfish love and selfless tender love?
:thumbdown:
There is no evil in God.
God is love.
What rushes in when you turn off a light? darkness.
The light itself isn't darkness.
Trying to understand dear Sparrow, and I really think I'm missing something, not quite tracking. Are you saying the scripture would then read "I make peace and peace only; I did not create evil"? Or something else. Please help me better understand the specific point of your last post. Absorbing lots of info today (I'm at work) and probably seeing a little dimly right now.
I like that site James, I corresponded in e-mail with them about the term olam and that's where I learned that the translations that use the word everlasting for olam are imposing the greek abstract terms and they say it is incorrect.
But that's where I also started seeing a different view of aionios if everlasting is its "abstract" usage. Was very informative.
I think this article says a lot of what has been said. There are things that MUST be and Gods character or power has nothing to do with it, it is how it is.
That's my take on it anyway.
I only discovered it tonight. I'll have to look at it more. I've done enough arm-wrestling for one night :winkgrin:, I'm getting tired. But I'll ask if you'd please help me explain your view on this piece; if it's just how it is, how would you say it came to be that way, IYO? I just think, maybe wrongly, I don't know, that God's character and power has SOMETHING to do with everything, to some degree or another. That He's not what we might call to blame, but if not responsible, then at least connected somehow. I just can't (as you said earlier) fathom or explain it all.
And I just wanted to say...you're crazy for wanting to be strapped on top of a rocket :bigGrin:. I do likes my 2 foots on the ground.
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 06:19:00 AM
Trying to understand dear Sparrow, and I really think I'm missing something, not quite tracking. Are you saying the scripture would then read "I make peace and peace only; I did not create evil"? Or something else. Please help me better understand the specific point of your last post. Absorbing lots of info today (I'm at work) and probably seeing a little dimly right now.
I see this life as a schoolyard... contrasts in love and non-love.
But once the lesson is learned... there will be no more non-love.
That's basically what I'm saying.
To me, evil = non-love.
God IS love.
So he cannot NOT be love.
When it says He creates evil...
It is only created in the same sense that darkness is "created" when the light is turned OFF in a room.
In other words, God doesn't force a man to rape and murder a child.
The man rapes and murders the child because he has turned AWAY from love.
all evil (actions of non-love) are all showing us something.
When we do not LOVE...the consequences, what happens, the result.
We are here to learn.
We will absolutely CLING to God forever, when this whole history of this earthly life has played out.
This whole history, every action, every life, is a thread in the tapestry.
The tapestry of life that will serve to show us the effects, trickling down in every way, shape and form the results of love... and the results of non-love. From the most miniscule of things to the largest things. From the most evil to the most loving.
God IS LOVE.
When we turn from LOVE, we are in darkness, and we do dark (non-loving) things.
Everything will be brought to light.
But it is to teach us.
Do you know what I mean?
Perhaps the confusion is that I am misunderstanding what the guy is talking about?
perhaps my response doesn't line up with what he is talking about?
I still do not believe that God CREATES evil or IS evil in ANY way, shape or form.
We EXPERIENCE non-love when we choose to turn away from Love.
We are here to learn the power of love.
and the futility of non-love.
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 04:46:43 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on August 05, 2009, 04:41:10 AM
Are we only to consider the premise of duality, that of interchanging; good and evil?
"Let us not be polarized and magnetized within two conflicting or contrasting positions."
The whole premise as I understand it, is the working of all things toward balance. The working of ALL things for our good. I just believe we often try really hard to make what God says fit what I am only temporarily capable of thinking and understanding. He's just a whole lot bigger than that, and He'll show us more as He brings our wills into His...step by step :thumbsup:.
We are gradually changing from the old dualistic ways of thinking to a new paradigm which transcends the differences between light/darkness, good/evil, and the "us and them" mentality. This new paradigm pierces the veil of judgment deep within us, as we are being transformed into the newness of this life.
However, ours is not the task of fixing the entire world all at once, but of stretching out to mend the part of the world that is within our reach:
"What is mine, is yours, if you have need of it."His Love is not limited to single-linear cause and effect outcomes. And I believe that sin/redemption was not God's highest purpose for His "image" bearers.
As I have mentioned before:
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestine to holiness."My love to each, and everyone on this forum. And to my neighbors, whoever, they may be.
peacemaker
Hi James,
As much as I think I know, I also understand that I have no full comprehension of God, I do not think that limits us in understanding God is not a murderer.
It does not limit our understanding that Gods character does not have an eternal place to exist where he offers no hope.
When I say that the way things are in regards to evil that has nothing to do with Gods power is that our journey is inherant to God.
God is, Gods existance is how it is, there is nothing inherant to his existance that we can relate to his character or power as being a part of him coming into existance. He just is.
It is indeed the western thinking and the view Christianity has perverted that we are actually apart from God and he operates outside of our realm.
It is what we are experiencing now in terms of what we "call" evil that is a process that is just God expanding. It is as real and anything, and it must be because it is how it is.
Gods written word is to help us along the way to find peace in what must be.
It has never been about God as a man making a plan, it is God himself alive and growing and we are inherantly God.
I admit I may be terrible at wording all of this and perhaps I over think it to the point that my eyes bulge, but through that I understood the evil of ET, so I will continue to cause aneurysms even if only in myself as I think this through. :laughing7:
Sparrow, PM, Paul - I'll continue to think on these things. I don't have the complete simple answers :sigh:. In the meantime, no aneurysms please :bigGrin:.
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 07:08:26 AM
Sparrow, PM, Paul - I'll continue to think on these things. I don't have the complete simple answers :sigh:. In the meantime, no aneurysms please :bigGrin:.
yeah.. y'know...
I know this is a hot topic for me.
Only because of past discussions/experiences with some other folks from years ago (and actually to this day). So, I will just say I might be a little overly sensitive when it comes to this.
Sort of has to do with some weirdo new-age type stuff that was just, I don't know man..
it's like it was almost dissolving God into this nothingness, non-meaning, non-personal...
just blob of.... well... blob of...ICK.
So, sometimes I admit.. the hairs on my neck stand up if I sense anything remotely seeming to sound like that stuff. :mblush: I may have completely misunderstood what this guy is talking about and what you all are talking about, as well. So, I apologize if I threw the discussion off track at all. Don't mind me. :msealed: :grin:
:icon_flower:
thank you for your patience.
:bigGrin:
I think he's saying God is very involved, that we just don't usually understand His ways. That's really what I believe too, that although I really can't understand it real well, and explain it even worse, that I do have to believe He does just what He says; "I make peace, and create evil". I'm just not completely sure all what that means. :blush:
Yeah... in a sense the "be ye as little children" comes to mind.. y'know..
QuoteAnd when it comes to faith (and our lack of it), the Bible admonishes us to have child-like faith — the kind that trusts completely without ifs and buts.
:happy3:
I still kind of see it as it being created BECAUSE He IS love...
so what is not LOVE is NOT... HIS nature...
so non-love is created in THAT way.
Different ways of things being "created"
some things are "created" by default.
Maybe that's what it means...
LOVE makes peace.
non-love creates evil.
well...
ok, gotta stop thinking about this for awhile.. :laughing7:
Quote from: sparrow on August 05, 2009, 06:45:15 AM
When it says He creates evil...
It is only created in the same sense that darkness is "created" when the light is turned OFF in a room.
In other words, God doesn't force a man to rape and murder a child.
The man rapes and murders the child because he has turned AWAY from love.
all evil (actions of non-love) are all showing us something.
When we do not LOVE...the consequences, what happens, the result.
Sparrow, my thoughts on this topic of God "creating" or "forming" evil not that he FORCES man to do anything. I actually don't think God NEEDS to force man to do what he already wants to do: sin, sin, sin.
It is so much worth noting, that Romans 7 establishes that what causes people to sin is their sin generating flesh, and being in subjection to it. Under that condition, why would God need to force anyone to do evil, when the motions of sin are already in place? And this to the point where even when a man in the flesh WANTS to do good, he cannot do it! Have you ever been wronged by someone to the point where you want to hate them? Well, when you remember that it is not them wronging you but the sin they are slaves to, perspectives change, because then you can feel sorrow for the person, rather than seeing them as an object for revenge.
My point in saying all this is that I agree, God does not force anyone to sin. But he did create the flesh, and the flesh by default shoots WIDE of the mark of the Spirit. And everyone is born into the flesh which automatically lusts against the Spirit. When I think about God creating evil, I think about Christ's persecution. If I saw that without knowledge of God's will and power concerning His Son's fate, would I think it to be a work of Satan, a innocent man murdered in the worst way, or according to God's hand?
"In the hands of humanity, He exposed their nakedness; revealing his Love."
peacemaker
hmmm. Seth, your post just made something spring to mind.
Perhaps... "I create evil.."
Those words are nothing more than God taking responsibility FOR the evil that abounds in carnal man. since GOD is the one who subjected us to this carnal flesh, this corruption, this FUTILITY..He is taking RESPONSIBILITY for our evil that WE (in our carnal flesh state) commit.
(since He subjected us to this in the first place, so we would learn.... He is saying, *I* create evil. Taking it on Himself, just as He took our sins on HIS shoulders.)
wow.
ok, not sure if I worded that correctly, but I had to post because I'm still here thinking...
hmmm... :Chinscratch:
Not a complete answer. Just some thoughts to start with.
I think the first key is to figure out the correct translation.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Form and make: Making something from already existing materials.
Create: Make something out of nothing.
If God is only good then the 'material' is readily availble within Himself. And the availble evil has to be made from none existing materials.
That said (ancient) Hebrew scholars seem to view darkness as the absense of light. So darkness is missing the material called light.
Then if light=love and dark=evil.
Then the 'forming evil' simply means God stops 'injecting light'.
That would mean creating evil is a passive action and cretaing love a active action.
It's even reflected in the universe. A light (sun, stars) consumes massive amounts of energy to shine. When the energy(love/light) is depleted there is darkness (=evil)
I'm already way of track here so lets wrap this up with saying that creating evil perhaps just means cutting of the energy supply?
:dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 09:13:22 AM
Not a complete answer. Just some thoughts to start with.
I think the first key is to figure out the correct translation.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Form and make: Making something from already existing materials.
Create: Make something out of nothing.
If God is only good then the 'material' is readily availble within Himself. And the availble evil has to be made from none existing materials.
That said (ancient) Hebrew scholars seem to view darkness as the absense of light. So darkness is missing the material called light.
Then if light=love and dark=evil.
Then the 'forming evil' simply means God stops 'injecting light'.
That would mean creating evil is a passive action and cretaing love a active action.
It's even reflected in the universe. A light (sun, stars) consumes massive amounts of energy to shine. When the energy(love/light) is depleted there is darkness (=evil)
I'm already way of track here so lets wrap this up with saying that creating evil perhaps just means cutting of the energy supply?
:dontknow:
Hey! I'm pretty sure we are seeing it the same way.
Who created what happens (or even the conditions for what happens) when the energy supply is cut off?
Nothing is created when the energy supply is cut off.
Look at it this way.
An (unscriptual) example: We all had some accident and are in great pain (=evil) God injects us daily with a painkiller (=good).
Then God stops injecting and the pain returns.
So pain/evil is 'created' by doing nothing.
Light/painless requires action, dark/pain requires doing nothing. Plus God can change the dosis of the painkiller.
WW, I think your "form and create" definitions are worth more consideration. Did you make those up, or are they really accurate definitions? :laughing7: Seriously, are they thoughts/suppositions/possibilities, or for real bases of fact upon which we can build?
I understand what you're saying. But how did the conditions occur/come into being in which we would have the pain, experience it, feel it when we "injured ourself"? How did we have the accident? Who set it up that accidents could occur, and when they did, pain would be felt? My bottom line question...can anything EVER exist in any way, shape, form, without its origin (or even the conditions to develop) within which it occured, without God somehow being connected to it...some how? In essence, can anything really be "it just is" without God having created the conditions for "it just is" to exist in the first place? :doh:
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 10:40:41 AM
WW, I think your "form and create" definitions are worth more consideration. Did you make those up, or are they really accurate definitions? :laughing7: Seriously, are they thoughts/suppositions/possibilities, or for real bases of fact upon which we can build?
Ofcourse all my examples are purely my thoughts.
But if you look at the Hebrew words only the "creating evil" part has a root word the Hebrew bara. To my best knowledge Bara is the
only Hebrew word that means 'creating out of nothing'. And it's commonly accepted among Jewish scholars.
So the created out of something/nothing is from Jewish scholars.
Dark being the absense of light is commonly accepted too I think? Same as dark=sin=death...
All other stuff is just me extrapolating.
QuoteI understand what you're saying. But how did the conditions occur/come into being in which we would have the pain, experience it, feel it when we "injured ourself"? How did we have the accident? Who set it up that accidents could occur, and when they did, pain would be felt? My bottom line question...can anything EVER exist in any way, shape, form, without its origin (or even the conditions to develop) within which it occured, without God somehow being connected to it...some how?
That's a whole different topic I think...
Did Eve really get sick/in pain (start sinning) or was she created terminally ill? They got their daily dose of painkiller, but the day before 'the fruit incident' God lowered the dose of medicine.
Do
not ask for verses proving that :laughing7:
About "Bara" - creating out of nothing
Read and decide for yourself.....
http://users.hal-pc.org/~tom/creationexnihilo.htm
http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/baracreate-in-ancient-israel-what-do-the-bible-and-the-scholars-say/
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/did-god-create-or-make
http://www.christianleadershipcenter.org/Bara.htm
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=615
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bara%20create%20out%20of%20nothing&num=100
So like always not all agree...
ww, so the idea is that he creates something out of nothing--evil.
And then gives it form and light--good?
So evil is just the first and most primitive step in the creation process?
That could make sense from the first 4 verses of genesis.
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
--Gen 1
Quote from: Molly on August 05, 2009, 12:15:42 PM
So evil is just the first and most primitive step in the creation process?
Molly,
I didn't imply that. But now you ask my answer is:
Could be true Molly because the creation account several times states:
".....there was night, there was day....."
So night became before day.
The Hebrew word for night also means chaos. The Hebrew word for day also means order.
Purely my thought/speculation.... night=chaos=sin, day=order=perfection/love
A Jewish day goes from nightfall -> day
Doesn't Gods plan follow the same pattern? Chaos/sin --> order/perfection ?
Just some thoughts that are not presented as proof or something with solid scriptual basis.
But not contrary either I think...
Quote from: sparrow on August 05, 2009, 08:31:08 AM
hmmm. Seth, your post just made something spring to mind.
Perhaps... "I create evil.."
Those words are nothing more than God taking responsibility FOR the evil that abounds in carnal man. since GOD is the one who subjected us to this carnal flesh, this corruption, this FUTILITY..He is taking RESPONSIBILITY for our evil that WE (in our carnal flesh state) commit.
(since He subjected us to this in the first place, so we would learn.... He is saying, *I* create evil. Taking it on Himself, just as He took our sins on HIS shoulders.)
I see it that way too. Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right? Evil was a critical part of God's plan, and still is. Look at the evil done to Christ. Who did it? Well, the Romans, the Jews, us all, etc. Yet on the most high level, the Bible says that God planned it and did it.
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 06:37:28 PM
Quote from: sparrow on August 05, 2009, 08:31:08 AM
hmmm. Seth, your post just made something spring to mind.
Perhaps... "I create evil.."
Those words are nothing more than God taking responsibility FOR the evil that abounds in carnal man. since GOD is the one who subjected us to this carnal flesh, this corruption, this FUTILITY..He is taking RESPONSIBILITY for our evil that WE (in our carnal flesh state) commit.
(since He subjected us to this in the first place, so we would learn.... He is saying, *I* create evil. Taking it on Himself, just as He took our sins on HIS shoulders.)
I see it that way too. Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right? Evil was a critical part of God's plan, and still is. Look at the evil done to Christ. Who did it? Well, the Romans, the Jews, us all, etc. Yet on the most high level, the Bible says that God planned it and did it.
:goodpost:
I woke up this morning thinking about this. Right now, I just can't buy the "God turns out the light, so that only leaves darkness because darkness 'just is' without the presence of God". Beside the thought of "who created those conditions to exist in the first place", i.e., that the absence of light = darkness, here are some other reasons why; there are many, many specific scriptures that seem to clearly explain otherwise; SEEMINGLY to me, showing God's active, direct involvment...His intent, will, and purpose. Once again, I believe "we're" trying to take God off the hook, when He plainly says He takes responsibility. DO I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND IT OR CAN EXPLAIN IT? NOT EVEN CLOSE! But here are a very few scriptures I found for consideration (whether evil = calamity, trouble, bad, etc., scriptures still say;)
"No evil in this city is without God's will. "(Amos 3:6)
"Out of the most high precedes both evil and good."(Lam. 3:38)
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. Acts 5:5
Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. Acts 5:10
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange (Greek: different, other) flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7
God sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food. Numbers 11:33
"The Lord smote Benjamin" Judges 20:35
God calls for a seven year famine. 2 Kings 8:1
I don't see God just "turning off the light", "turning his back", "moving aside to block the sun/Son".... :mshock:
So I personally have to go back to a simple faith here.
God is good.
Our view is limited.
His ways ARE NOT our ways. (Is. 55:89)
Everything He does is for a good purpose, even if we don't understand it.
He will make everything work together for our good.
He will redeem His whole creation.
How He goes about it is His business.
We are to humbly walk before our God.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have life aonios. John 3:16
Quote from: sparrow on August 05, 2009, 04:57:47 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 01:00:52 AM
While researching something, I came across this (what I thought to be) interesting opinion. From the 'Ancient Hebrew Research Center' - http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_goodbad.html
"Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).
It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil" it is usually the Hebrew word "ra" which simply means "bad". In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an "evil" person or thing. To understand the words "good" and "bad" from a more Hebraic understanding these words should be understood as "functional" and "dysfunctional". God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as the destruction of the flood).
Our western mind classifies all things in two categories, either it is "good" or it is "bad". One is to be sought, cherished and protected, the other is to be rejected, spurned and discarded. Let us take light and darkness as an example. We see light as good and darkness as bad. The idea of light brings to mind such things as God, truth and love. Darkness on the other hand invokes Satan, lies and hate. To the Orientals, including the Hebrews, both are equally necessary as one cannot exist without the other. In the Bible God is seen as a God of light as well as darkness "And the people stood at a distance and Moses approached the heavy darkness where God was." (Exodus 20:21). If you stare at the sun, which is pure light, what happens? You become blind. If you are standing in a sealed room with no light, what happens? You are again blind. Therefore, both light and darkness are bad and yet, both are good. In order to see we must block out some of the light as well as some of the darkness.
The two poles of a magnet are north and south. These two poles create balance, they are not morally good or bad, but necessary ingredients of physics that compliment each other. Good and bad are more like the north and south poles of a magnet than our Western conception of good and bad.
Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not, how could you judge something to be good if you cannot compare it to something bad? The same is true for all other concepts. Cold cannot exist without heat, or short without tall, far without near, or large without small. Our western mind usually ignores these extremes and seeks to always find the "good" or the "bad". The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the "good" and the "bad" in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said "Do not be overly righteous" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).
Throughout the scriptures this search for balance is found, yet ignored by Westerners who do not understand the significance of balance." - AHRC
Oh God, You are my God
and I will ever praise You...
I will seek You in the morning
I will learn to walk in Your ways
and STEP BY STEP You'll lead me
and I will follow You all of my days
The lessons can last forever...
but the "bad" does not last forever.
This is the same as someone tried to argue before about there is no evil, it's all in our minds, or how we perceive it. Evil isn't evil, it just is. Just as good is. It's neutral. Yeah, right. Tell that to someone who was just raped.
Is rape going to go on forever? So we'll ALWAYS know the difference between violent, selfish love and selfless tender love?
:thumbdown:
There is no evil in God.
God is love.
What rushes in when you turn off a light? darkness.
The light itself isn't darkness.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 06:19:00 AM
Trying to understand dear Sparrow, and I really think I'm missing something, not quite tracking. Are you saying the scripture would then read "I make peace and peace only; I did not create evil"? Or something else. Please help me better understand the specific point of your last post. Absorbing lots of info today (I'm at work) and probably seeing a little dimly right now.
Jab the scriptures can also read this way
I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Which matches up far better to God is love and love worketh no evil.
I know you have an alternate rendering for the one scripture. I've seen it. What about all the other scriptures above? And the hundreds of others that I've not listed that indicate God's direct, proactive involvement - utilizing both blessings and calamity, to in the end, equal only blessings (i.e, ALL things work together for good....)?
Why/how did Ananias stop breathing?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 09:13:22 AM
Not a complete answer. Just some thoughts to start with.
I think the first key is to figure out the correct translation.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Form and make: Making something from already existing materials.
Create: Make something out of nothing.
If God is only good then the 'material' is readily availble within Himself. And the availble evil has to be made from none existing materials.
That said (ancient) Hebrew scholars seem to view darkness as the absense of light. So darkness is missing the material called light.
Then if light=love and dark=evil.
Then the 'forming evil' simply means God stops 'injecting light'.
That would mean creating evil is a passive action and cretaing love a active action.
It's even reflected in the universe. A light (sun, stars) consumes massive amounts of energy to shine. When the energy(love/light) is depleted there is darkness (=evil)
I'm already way of track here so lets wrap this up with saying that creating evil perhaps just means cutting of the energy supply?
:dontknow:
WW here is a post I gave concering this in the other thread were we talked about this.
And it is scriptural
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. 13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. 14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken? 15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.
Here we see God saying that because of the evil man does in disobeying His voice God himself will visit evil upon them "I make peace, and create evil".
So how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?
Or how does God create evil?
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.
Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".
And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.
Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.
Do we not see this same principle brought out here
Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Septuagint
7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?
Now lets jump down to verses 16 & 17
In the KJV these scriptures seem to be saying God created the smith that bloweth the coals and the waster to destroy.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
Now lets look at the Septuagint for a TOTALLY different view then what the KJV seems to present.
Septuagint
16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.
Which version seems to be more in lines with God who is love and love worketh NO evil?
You will all have to decide that for yourselves but I would like to point out one more thing concerning those verses.
If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?
Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?
God bless
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 09:34:03 PM
I know you have an alternate rendering for the one scripture. I've seen it. What about all the other scriptures above? And the hundreds of others that I've not listed that indicate God's direct, proactive involvement - utilizing both blessings and calamity, to in the end, equal only blessings (i.e, ALL things work together for good....)?
Why/how did Ananias stop breathing?
Jab, I have already explained this over and over, the post I just posted to WW explians it again.
I don't have the time to go through each and every scripture you posted, but I bet it all started out with man being disobedient.
QuoteEvil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.
Hi Scott, long time no talk. Good to see you.
Evil in how we in the Western world is how you describe it. But consider some other ways of seeing "evil" especially how it was understood in the archaic world:
Main Entry: 1evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>
2 a
archaic : inferior b :
causing discomfort or repulsion : offensive <an evil odor> c : disagreeable <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a :
causing harm : pernicious <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : unlucky
--------
The bolded parts do not suggest the "opposite of good." The word "good" is a very nebulous word. It can mean "pleasantness" (but God doesn't always bring that upon man), or it can mean "appropriate to a required purpose" seeing that God created the subtlest beast of the field, yet saw all he created as "good."
Evil is not just immorality. It can be as simple as an experience which is extremely unpleasant which leads to greater good.
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 06:37:28 PM
Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right?
I still fail to see what's so good about that.
Without evil Jesus wouldn't have to suffer at all; sounds even better to me.
Ok, he rose from the dead. He loved us. Etc
But I really doubt He was having a good time being beaten half to death and then nailed to the cross.
He even asked Father if that cup could pass him by (or something similar)
Gonna leave you at peace now Seth. It almost looks I'm hunting you down today
:boyheart:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 10:14:38 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 06:37:28 PM
Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right?
I still fail to see what's so good about that.
Without evil Jesus wouldn't have to suffer at all; sounds even better to me.
Ok, he rose from the dead. He loved us. Etc
But I really doubt He was having a good time being beaten half to death and then nailed to the cross.
He even asked Father if that cup could pass him by (or something similar)
Gonna leave you at peace now Seth. It almost looks I'm hunting you down today
:boyheart:
I guess "good" depends on your perspective (ie what you see as good versus what God sees as good).
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 09:51:34 PM
QuoteEvil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.
Hi Scott, long time no talk. Good to see you.
Evil in how we in the Western world is how you describe it. But consider some other ways of seeing "evil" especially how it was understood in the archaic world:
Main Entry: 1evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : inferior b : causing discomfort or repulsion : offensive <an evil odor> c : disagreeable <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : pernicious <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : unlucky
--------
The bolded parts do not suggest the "opposite of good." The word "good" is a very nebulous word. It can mean "pleasantness" (but God doesn't always bring that upon man), or it can mean "appropriate to a required purpose" seeing that God created the subtlest beast of the field, yet saw all he created as "good."
Evil is not just immorality. It can be as simple as an experience which is extremely unpleasant which leads to greater good.
He Seth, good to see you again also.
I really don't have much of a problem with that bro, my problem comes in when people say God planned out all the evil in this world and nothing can change His plan. Thus making in effect God the author of sin (because He planned form man to sin) etc.
Myself I beleive God is the master planner and He has a plan for every choice man makes. One ultimate plan, to make man in His image and likeness, but many roads towards that plan because of the choices of man. Thus the strait gate and broad road.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 05, 2009, 10:14:38 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 06:37:28 PM
Without evil means nobody to kill Jesus right?
I still fail to see what's so good about that.
Without evil Jesus wouldn't have to suffer at all; sounds even better to me.
Ok, he rose from the dead. He loved us. Etc
But I really doubt He was having a good time being beaten half to death and then nailed to the cross.
He even asked Father if that cup could pass him by (or something similar)
Gonna leave you at peace now Seth. It almost looks I'm hunting you down today
:boyheart:
I agree ww
God did NOT want to sacrifice His son
, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.
KJV
Jer 7:22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
In the day God brought the people out of Egypt He gave commands for us to OBEY HIS VOICE but the people would not listen to OBEY HIS VOICE so God commanded burnt offerings and sacrifices for the people.
If the people had OBEYED HIS VOICE then there would have been no need of burnt offerings and sacrifices. But because of the peoples disobedience God instituted/made provision/weaved a way for man to come before Him in repentance by burnt offerings and sacrifices.
We see this very principal brought out in
1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.
And I think the reason God commanded these sacrifices and offerings was so that the people would see what a heinous act it was that they must slay an innocent life for their own sinful ways.
Ezekiel 20:25
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live.
Now we know that the sacrifices given in the OT are a shadow of Christ sacrifice for us. Thus, God says that when He brought the people out of Egypt (God taking man from the dust of the earth OUTSIDE the garden[Egypt] and putting man into the garden) He did NOT command concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
Why?
Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.
The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.
God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.
Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.
Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Again it say sacrifice and offering God did NOT desire, but it even go farther and says that they were NOT required.
If God planned all along for Jesus to be sacrificed for us why do scriptures say that offerings were NOT required?
Because if man had of obeyed His voice sacrifices and offering would NOT have been required.
Psalm 51:16
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Again we see the same thing, God did NOT desire sacrifice.
Hebrews 10:5-6
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Jesus said it Himself, sacrifice and offering God did NOT want, and He(God) found NO pleasure in them.
Now we all know that God had pleasure in the outcome of Christ sacrifice, so what is Jesus saying here? Is He not saying that God had NO pleasure in the need of sacrificing His son.
Why did He(God) have NO pleasure in sacrificing His son?
Because He wanted obedience and NOT sacrifice.
I agree with you that the choices of man are what cause evil. In fact I believe that the flesh lusting against the Spirit is what causes men to make choices that cause evil.
What I see, especially in the case of an innocent man murdered by the choices made by men (Christ on the cross) those choices, to carry out an unjustified murder, were part and parcel to God's plan to bring salvation to all. :HeartThrob:
It isn't that God took PLEASURE in sacrificing His son, but he did see it as a GOOD thing to do for all mankind. That is why we should distinguish what we mean by "good."
Quote from: pneuma on August 05, 2009, 09:43:57 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 09:34:03 PM
I know you have an alternate rendering for the one scripture. I've seen it. What about all the other scriptures above? And the hundreds of others that I've not listed that indicate God's direct, proactive involvement - utilizing both blessings and calamity, to in the end, equal only blessings (i.e, ALL things work together for good....)?
Why/how did Ananias stop breathing?
Jab, I have already explained this over and over, the post I just posted to WW explians it again.
I don't have the time to go through each and every scripture you posted, but I bet it all started out with man being disobedient.
You've explained all the verses that show God's direct involvement and Him actively either directly intervening or CAUSING others to carry out His will? I doubt it, but OK. The explanation would be your opinion anyway, and we've all got one.
You and I have a fundamental disagreement on which we then base our subsequent view of much of scripture anyway.
Let's not argue. I was addressing others. I think I have a pretty good idea of many of the things you believe and on what it's primarily based. You won't convince me, I won't convince you, and that's not our job anyway. God veils and reveals.
We do agree on the main things...Jesus, Him crucified, rose again, Savior of the world.
If we are to apply "God desires mercy not sacrifice" to Jesus, not to the sacrifices of literal beasts, then are we to understand that Jesus acted AGAINST his father's will in dying for mankind. Did Jesus disobey God by going to the cross?
Good point. God works ALL things according to HIS WILL.
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 10:37:15 PM
If we are to apply "God desires mercy not sacrifice" to Jesus, not to the sacrifices of literal beasts, then are we to understand that Jesus acted AGAINST his father's will in dying for mankind. Did Jesus disobey God by going to the cross?
Do you agree that the shadow shown in the OT is that of Christ?
If so than it should be evident God did not want to sacrifice His son, but because of mans disobedience God did that which He never wanted to do.
Seth and pneuma, :HeartThrob:. God's blessings to you, James.
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 10:33:56 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 05, 2009, 09:43:57 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 09:34:03 PM
I know you have an alternate rendering for the one scripture. I've seen it. What about all the other scriptures above? And the hundreds of others that I've not listed that indicate God's direct, proactive involvement - utilizing both blessings and calamity, to in the end, equal only blessings (i.e, ALL things work together for good....)?
Why/how did Ananias stop breathing?
Jab, I have already explained this over and over, the post I just posted to WW explians it again.
I don't have the time to go through each and every scripture you posted, but I bet it all started out with man being disobedient.
You've explained all the verses that show God's direct involvement and Him actively either directly intervening or CAUSING others to carry out His will? I doubt it, but OK. The explanation would be your opinion anyway, and we've all got one.
You and I have a fundamental disagreement on which we then base our subsequent view of much of scripture anyway.
Let's not argue. I was addressing others. I think I have a pretty good idea of many of the things you believe and on what it's primarily based. You won't convince me, I won't convince you, and that's not our job anyway. God veils and reveals.
We do agree on the main things...Jesus, Him crucified, rose again, Savior of the world.
Jab I never ment I aswered each scripture you gave directly, but that I answered them indirectly before and in post 133.
And yes we do agree on the salvation of the world.
Quote from: jabcat on August 05, 2009, 10:45:14 PM
Seth and pneuma, :HeartThrob:. God's blessings to you, James.
To you also brother.
Quote from: pneuma on August 05, 2009, 10:43:54 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 10:37:15 PM
If we are to apply "God desires mercy not sacrifice" to Jesus, not to the sacrifices of literal beasts, then are we to understand that Jesus acted AGAINST his father's will in dying for mankind. Did Jesus disobey God by going to the cross?
Do you agree that the shadow shown in the OT is that of Christ?
If so than it should be evident God did not want to sacrifice His son, but because of mans disobedience God did that which He never wanted to do.
Yes, the shadow is that of Christ.....and yet.....according to the Bible,
the shadow is not the VERY thing, so I do not apply ALL statements about the shadow unto the very thing, knowing that they are distinguishable by their natures. For example, if God desires mercy and not sacrifice,
what if I say that Christ's sacrifice
was merciful to us (therefore pleasing)
and that the sacrifices contextually associated with the shadows in Hebrews were by their nature NOT merciful to them (and therefore displeasing).
So, we have here a single, one-time sacrifice that was merciful, and sacrifices that mercilessly condemned the conscious. Therein I see how the shadow is not the VERY thing, and how the shadow sacrifices did not please God, but Christ's merciful act was through obedience unto death...
Now do I say that God WANTED Christ to be sacrificed? Depends on whether you say that God took emotional pleasure in it. I don't say that he took emotional pleasure in it. But I do know that Jesus was OBEDIENT unto death, and that His death was conceived of and ordained by God as being the final solution to sin itself.
For through death, we received life. Thank you Father for sending your son to die for me.
Scott, I have a very clear question that I asked before and maybe you missed it. I just want an honest response as to what you believe (which I know you would give, being that you are an honest person).
Did Jesus obey God by sacrificing himself?
YOu said that "God did not want to do it, but that eventually HE DID due to our disobedience." If God did it, then it doesn't matter if you or I agree or disagree with whether he wanted to do it. What matters is GOD did it and it was therefore done, and Christ was obedient so that it would be done, and the Jews and Romans were unwitting participants in the sacrifice that God put into action.
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 11:29:10 PM
Scott, I have a very clear question that I asked before and maybe you missed it. I just want an honest response as to what you believe (which I know you would give, being that you are an honest person).
Did Jesus obey God by sacrificing himself?
YOu said that "God did not want to do it, but that eventually HE DID due to our disobedience." If God did it, then it doesn't matter if you or I agree or disagree with whether he wanted to do it. What matters is GOD did it and it was therefore done, and Christ was obedient so that it would be done, and the Jews and Romans were unwitting participants in the sacrifice that God put into action.
Hi Seth to answer your question, yes Jesus obeyed God.
But I see this differently then you bro, you seem to understand it along the same lines a Bob.
Read this link Seth as I have already discussed this in great detail there, and if I am to do so again I will have to break the freewill taboo and I told Jab I would not go there.
God bless
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0
Quote from: pneuma on August 05, 2009, 11:52:07 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 11:29:10 PM
Scott, I have a very clear question that I asked before and maybe you missed it. I just want an honest response as to what you believe (which I know you would give, being that you are an honest person).
Did Jesus obey God by sacrificing himself?
YOu said that "God did not want to do it, but that eventually HE DID due to our disobedience." If God did it, then it doesn't matter if you or I agree or disagree with whether he wanted to do it. What matters is GOD did it and it was therefore done, and Christ was obedient so that it would be done, and the Jews and Romans were unwitting participants in the sacrifice that God put into action.
Hi Seth to answer your question, yes Jesus obeyed God.
But I see this differently then you bro, you seem to understand it along the same lines a Bob.
Read this link Seth as I have already discussed this in great detail there, and if I am to do so again I will have to break the freewill taboo and I told Jab I would not go there.
God bless
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0
Yeah, I know that the freewill thing is played out in this forum, and so I respect that. In this particular conversation it is just important to distinguish the terms, what it means when someone says "wanted." The reason it is important is because if you mean that God did not have an emotional pleasure in it, then we agree. However, even if God did not "want" to do it, he still did it....and that is the true point that I am making.
God did it. That is the point. :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi PM... :hithere:
Not trying to argue, rather, give a little food for thought... :friendstu:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 05, 2009, 04:41:10 AM
Ahhh! The heat-cold argument of good and evil, so just how cold is "cold?"
Absolute zero, is -273.15 degrees Celsius; approximately the temperature at which all molecules stop moving entirely. But what about 20 billionths of a degree above absolute zero?
Maybe a bit, warmer, you think? Having movement, perhaps?
So says man, ...there are NO ABSOLUTES with GOD...
How about a 100 billionth of a degree
colder? NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD bro... so HE is able to
add COLD to "ABSOLUTE COLD", thereby making it "COLDER", is He not? Making "ABSOLUTE COLD" --
WARMER -- than the 100 billionth of a degree, "ABSOLUTE COLD-ER" :laughing7:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 05, 2009, 04:41:10 AMHow dark is dark? Can dark be made to be darker? Or lighter?
Again... "Opposites" are more "DIRECTIONS", rather than FIRM states of POSITION.
Something ROUGH can be made SMOOTHER by processing, or something INSIDE can be moved OUTSIDE, or something HOT can become COLD... :blah: :blahgreen: ...Moving DIRECTIONALLY away from one state toward the other...
I once wrote a novel which contained a "DARKNESS" that was not only absent of LIGHT, but grew THICKER as it DARKENED! (kind of like the continuity of liquid being "thickened" -- adding flour to water, to make gravy -- etc)
Quote from: peacemaker on August 05, 2009, 04:41:10 AMCold is present when there is absolutely no heat.
When is
that (no heat) PM? Again, I remind, that it appears basing these conclusions here upon findings OF, and MAN's ability TO, comprehend and recognize, which is sorrowfully limited and inadaquate.
When an ICE CUBE becomes FROZEN, how much
more COLD can it withstand?
Quote from: peacemaker on August 05, 2009, 04:41:10 AMDarkness is present when there is absolutely no light.
Is that possible? How "DARK" is absolute DARK? Or can ABSOLUTE LIGHT, be
enhanced by adding the light of a CANDLE or a MATCH? :dontknow:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 05, 2009, 04:41:10 AMAnd Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual.
Are you sure?
CHRIST said of
LIVING BEINGS --
"let the DEAD, bury their DEAD"... The ones referred to were
ALIVE... so even though they were DEAD (in spiritual terms), they were STILL ALIVE (in physical terms)! In either CASE, Life is determined by GOD, and even though DEATH marks the absence of LIFE (which I agree with), Life can still remain.
As I see it, ...NOTHING in GOD is ever
completely DEAD, for it is IN HIM --
Acts 17:28 -- It is moving from one state DIRECTIONALLY, to another... Those of whom
CHRIST spoke in this reference, may have
later converted and become "UNDEAD" :laughing7:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 05, 2009, 04:41:10 AMAre we only to consider the premise of duality, that of interchanging; good and evil?
"Let us not be polarized and magnetized within two conflicting or contrasting positions."
A lesser degree of that which IS? (IMO)
GOD says in His
WORD --
Psalm 103:12 -- that He will remove our sins [transgressions] as "
FAR" as the
EAST -- "
IS" -- from the
WEST... where does ONE "begin" and the OTHER "end"? IOW -- At what
point, does EAST
end, and WEST
begin? :laughhand:
And if this is not so (one "ends", the other "begins") ...exactly WHEN and WHERE does EAST
become WEST? And thereby MERGE into its "opposite" direction, actually BECOMING its own OPPOSITE? :mshock:
The TRUTH (IMO) is that OPPOSITES whether they be noted or observed in the PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL realms are DIRECTIONS more than they are POSITIONS.
When the Prodigal SON left... He was actually taking his first steps on his way, back.
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 08:00:33 AM
Quote from: sparrow on August 05, 2009, 06:45:15 AM
When it says He creates evil...
It is only created in the same sense that darkness is "created" when the light is turned OFF in a room.
In other words, God doesn't force a man to rape and murder a child.
The man rapes and murders the child because he has turned AWAY from love.
all evil (actions of non-love) are all showing us something.
When we do not LOVE...the consequences, what happens, the result.
Sparrow, my thoughts on this topic of God "creating" or "forming" evil not that he FORCES man to do anything. I actually don't think God NEEDS to force man to do what he already wants to do: sin, sin, sin.
It is so much worth noting, that Romans 7 establishes that what causes people to sin is their sin generating flesh, and being in subjection to it. Under that condition, why would God need to force anyone to do evil, when the motions of sin are already in place? And this to the point where even when a man in the flesh WANTS to do good, he cannot do it! Have you ever been wronged by someone to the point where you want to hate them? Well, when you remember that it is not them wronging you but the sin they are slaves to, perspectives change, because then you can feel sorrow for the person, rather than seeing them as an object for revenge.
My point in saying all this is that I agree, God does not force anyone to sin. But he did create the flesh, and the flesh by default shoots WIDE of the mark of the Spirit. And everyone is born into the flesh which automatically lusts against the Spirit. When I think about God creating evil, I think about Christ's persecution. If I saw that without knowledge of God's will and power concerning His Son's fate, would I think it to be a work of Satan, a innocent man murdered in the worst way, or according to God's hand?
Except that we then have issues with such verses as "He has subjected all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all."
If this does not mean that we have been subjected to disobedience (sin), then what does it mean?
I don't mean to say that God micromanages and directly causes each individual to commit each sin, but we have at least been subjected to the strong tendency toward missing the mark, which does cause us to do so, often. Finite man simply cannot make completely uncaused choices.
Quote from: Doc on August 06, 2009, 12:47:30 AM
I don't mean to say that God micromanages and directly causes each individual to commit each sin, but we have at least been subjected to the strong tendency toward missing the mark, which does cause us to do so, often. Finite man simply cannot make completely uncaused choices.
Doc, it looks like we are in agreement, so not sure how it means we have a problem with "he subjected all to disobedience." We seem to agree as to where that disobedience is generated, the flesh right? And we agree that God created the flesh, and that all people are bound to it until set free right? So not sure exactly where we run into a problem.
Quote from: Seth on August 06, 2009, 12:55:38 AM
Quote from: Doc on August 06, 2009, 12:47:30 AM
I don't mean to say that God micromanages and directly causes each individual to commit each sin, but we have at least been subjected to the strong tendency toward missing the mark, which does cause us to do so, often. Finite man simply cannot make completely uncaused choices.
Doc, it looks like we are in agreement, so not sure how it means we have a problem with "he subjected all to disobedience." We seem to agree as to where that disobedience is generated, the flesh right? And we agree that God created the flesh, and that all people are bound to it until set free right? So not sure exactly where we run into a problem.
I think my point was simply that God does take responsibility for it at some level. Perhaps I misread your statement as indicating we are entirely at fault.
QuotewillieH: Hi PM... :hithere:
Not trying to argue, rather, give a little food for thought... :friendstu:
No worries, not on a diet!
QuoteHow about a 100 billionth of a degree colder? NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD bro... so HE is able to add COLD to "ABSOLUTE COLD", thereby making it "COLDER", is He not? Making "ABSOLUTE COLD" -- WARMER -- than the 100 billionth of a degree, "ABSOLUTE COLD-ER" :laughing7:
That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.
QuoteSomething ROUGH can be made SMOOTHER by processing, or something INSIDE can be moved OUTSIDE, or something HOT can become COLD... :blah: :blahgreen: ...Moving DIRECTIONALLY away from one state toward the other...
And the opposite of one thing is the absence of the other.
QuoteWhen an ICE CUBE becomes FROZEN, how much more COLD can it withstand?
The freezing point of water is 32 ° Fahrenheit, or 0 ° Celsius.
And we know what absolute zero is, but that is not the point.
QuoteHow "DARK" is absolute DARK? Or can ABSOLUTE LIGHT, be enhanced by adding the light of a CANDLE or a MATCH? :dontknow:
Are you referring to His Light, and that of a candle that "adds to" in contrast to that which IS ?
QuoteAre you sure?
"Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual."
QuoteCHRIST said of LIVING BEINGS -- "let the DEAD, bury their DEAD"... The ones referred to were ALIVE... so even though they were DEAD (in spiritual terms), they were STILL ALIVE (in physical terms)! In either CASE, Life is determined by GOD, and even though DEATH marks the absence of LIFE (which I agree with), Life can still remain.
As stated in the above quote, death is the absence of life, not difficult to digest for either of us. And a body without the [HIS] Spirit is dead, so whether physically alive or not, matters not.
QuoteAs I see it, ...NOTHING in GOD is ever completely DEAD, for it is IN HIM -- Acts 17:28 -- It is moving from one state DIRECTIONALLY, to another... Those of whom CHRIST spoke in this reference, may have later converted and become "UNDEAD" :laughing7:
A change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life.
QuoteGOD says in His WORD -- Psalm 103:12 -- that He will remove our sins [transgressions] as "FAR" as the EAST -- "IS" -- from the WEST... where does ONE "begin" and the OTHER "end"? IOW -- At what point, does EAST end, and WEST begin? :laughhand:
And if this is not so (one "ends", the other "begins") ...exactly WHEN and WHERE does EAST become WEST? And thereby MERGE into its "opposite" direction, actually BECOMING its own OPPOSITE? :mshock:
Indeed, but not a reference to going in a circle, like around this EARTHLY habitat.
QuoteWhen the Prodigal SON left... He was actually taking his first steps on his way, back.
A change in position from death to life, let us return:
"There would be no need for correction, if we didn't have the will of making a choice; and there would be no choice, if there weren't circumstances."
Thus, would concur that a change of ones heart from evil is directional, but upon completion; it's a new position in the absence of the old.
peacemaker :hihat:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AM
That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.
Just a quick remark what absolute zero is.
"Temperature is a measure of the degree of 'disorder' or 'messiness' of a system," said Chan. "When a system is cooled down to absolute zero, then that system is perfectly ordered and all its constituents -- molecules and atoms -- are in their proper place. That is the lowest possible temperature."
So it's perfect order. Sounds like Heaven :winkgrin:
/end of interuption. Carry on...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 06, 2009, 08:26:37 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AM
That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.
Just a quick remark what absolute zero is.
"Temperature is a measure of the degree of 'disorder' or 'messiness' of a system," said Chan. "When a system is cooled down to absolute zero, then that system is perfectly ordered and all its constituents -- molecules and atoms -- are in their proper place. That is the lowest possible temperature."
So it's perfect order. Sounds like Heaven :winkgrin:
/end of interuption. Carry on...
So basically, absolute zero is the theoretical temperature in which matter ceases to exist? :mshock:
"Moving beyond the speed of light, but at rest; thought provoking to say the least."
Quote from: Seth on August 06, 2009, 12:01:12 AM
Quote from: pneuma on August 05, 2009, 11:52:07 PM
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 11:29:10 PM
Scott, I have a very clear question that I asked before and maybe you missed it. I just want an honest response as to what you believe (which I know you would give, being that you are an honest person).
Did Jesus obey God by sacrificing himself?
YOu said that "God did not want to do it, but that eventually HE DID due to our disobedience." If God did it, then it doesn't matter if you or I agree or disagree with whether he wanted to do it. What matters is GOD did it and it was therefore done, and Christ was obedient so that it would be done, and the Jews and Romans were unwitting participants in the sacrifice that God put into action.
Hi Seth to answer your question, yes Jesus obeyed God.
But I see this differently then you bro, you seem to understand it along the same lines a Bob.
Read this link Seth as I have already discussed this in great detail there, and if I am to do so again I will have to break the freewill taboo and I told Jab I would not go there.
God bless
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0
Yeah, I know that the freewill thing is played out in this forum, and so I respect that. In this particular conversation it is just important to distinguish the terms, what it means when someone says "wanted." The reason it is important is because if you mean that God did not have an emotional pleasure in it, then we agree. However, even if God did not "want" to do it, he still did it....and that is the true point that I am making.
God did it. That is the point. :HeartThrob:
Yes God did that which He did not want to do, but it all came about because of mans disobedience, not because God planned for man to be disobedient.
Quote from: Doc on August 06, 2009, 12:47:30 AM
Quote from: Seth on August 05, 2009, 08:00:33 AM
Quote from: sparrow on August 05, 2009, 06:45:15 AM
When it says He creates evil...
It is only created in the same sense that darkness is "created" when the light is turned OFF in a room.
In other words, God doesn't force a man to rape and murder a child.
The man rapes and murders the child because he has turned AWAY from love.
all evil (actions of non-love) are all showing us something.
When we do not LOVE...the consequences, what happens, the result.
Sparrow, my thoughts on this topic of God "creating" or "forming" evil not that he FORCES man to do anything. I actually don't think God NEEDS to force man to do what he already wants to do: sin, sin, sin.
It is so much worth noting, that Romans 7 establishes that what causes people to sin is their sin generating flesh, and being in subjection to it. Under that condition, why would God need to force anyone to do evil, when the motions of sin are already in place? And this to the point where even when a man in the flesh WANTS to do good, he cannot do it! Have you ever been wronged by someone to the point where you want to hate them? Well, when you remember that it is not them wronging you but the sin they are slaves to, perspectives change, because then you can feel sorrow for the person, rather than seeing them as an object for revenge.
My point in saying all this is that I agree, God does not force anyone to sin. But he did create the flesh, and the flesh by default shoots WIDE of the mark of the Spirit. And everyone is born into the flesh which automatically lusts against the Spirit. When I think about God creating evil, I think about Christ's persecution. If I saw that without knowledge of God's will and power concerning His Son's fate, would I think it to be a work of Satan, a innocent man murdered in the worst way, or according to God's hand?
Except that we then have issues with such verses as "He has subjected all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all."
If this does not mean that we have been subjected to disobedience (sin), then what does it mean?
I don't mean to say that God micromanages and directly causes each individual to commit each sin, but we have at least been subjected to the strong tendency toward missing the mark, which does cause us to do so, often. Finite man simply cannot make completely uncaused choices.
Hi Doc, yes God subjected the whole creation to vanity, but this happened after man became disobedient. God warned Adam death would ensue if he ate, Adam ate and we now have what we have in this world. All this crap is because of one man's sin, not because God planned for man to sin.
QuoteAll this crap is because of one man's sin, not because God planned for man to sin.
But God knew all that was going to happen, and He created and started this mess anyway.
i believe He has a glorius purpose for all of us that we cannot even begin to imagine the wonder of it, and i don't believe He is going to have a trashcan bigger than His kingdom
:bigGrin:
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 02:31:17 PM
Yes God did that which He did not want to do, but it all came about because of mans disobedience, not because God planned for man to be disobedient.
I think we might be making different points Scott. I am not really talking about why God made the choice or when. My point was about how evil played a part in Christ's death, how it was used to carry out God's intention for the sacrifice that God did.
How can one believe "poor" God lost control of His creation, and has been scrambling around ever since, just somehow hoping to find a way to some day get man back on track; if He can only convince powerful man that he has overpowered God's will and that's a no-no?
How is that an all-powerful God, reigning Supreme, Lord of heaven and earth? That's just not my view of "I AM".
God is to worshiped as the Almighty, not pitied as a weak underachiever.
I, for one, agree with you Jab.
If God ever lost control of His creation, this would indicate to me that He is not sovereign. I simply cannot believe that.
Not to mention that he already had the plan of redemption formed before the "fall" even occurred.
Amen Doc. Exactly as one of your tags says, "God does not need a Plan B, He's still on Plan A"!
God is mighty, not maybe.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 06, 2009, 08:26:37 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AM
That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.
Just a quick remark what absolute zero is.
"Temperature is a measure of the degree of 'disorder' or 'messiness' of a system," said Chan. "When a system is cooled down to absolute zero, then that system is perfectly ordered and all its constituents -- molecules and atoms -- are in their proper place. That is the lowest possible temperature."
So it's perfect order. Sounds like Heaven :winkgrin:
/end of interuption. Carry on...
:cloud9: That's "cool" WW, lol.......seriously though, it looks like a witness to me. Blessings.....
Quote from: lookingup on August 06, 2009, 06:31:27 PM
QuoteAll this crap is because of one man's sin, not because God planned for man to sin.
But God knew all that was going to happen, and He created and started this mess anyway.
i believe He has a glorius purpose for all of us that we cannot even begin to imagine the wonder of it, and i don't believe He is going to have a trashcan bigger than His kingdom
:bigGrin:
Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing, no one is predestinated to sin
Quote from: Seth on August 06, 2009, 06:41:33 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 02:31:17 PM
Yes God did that which He did not want to do, but it all came about because of mans disobedience, not because God planned for man to be disobedient.
I think we might be making different points Scott. I am not really talking about why God made the choice or when. My point was about how evil played a part in Christ's death, how it was used to carry out God's intention for the sacrifice that God did.
yes we see it differenlty bro, God weaves the evil of this world for His purpose, but did not create the evil.
Quote from: Cardinal on August 06, 2009, 07:45:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 06, 2009, 08:26:37 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AM
That was the approximate temperature where molecules stop moving because of the absence of heat, never meant to imply they were dead.
Just a quick remark what absolute zero is.
"Temperature is a measure of the degree of 'disorder' or 'messiness' of a system," said Chan. "When a system is cooled down to absolute zero, then that system is perfectly ordered and all its constituents -- molecules and atoms -- are in their proper place. That is the lowest possible temperature."
So it's perfect order. Sounds like Heaven :winkgrin:
/end of interuption. Carry on...
:cloud9: That's "cool" WW, lol.......seriously though, it looks like a witness to me. Blessings.....
What's the verse? See my handy work in nature....
The 4 horsemen where released during the big bang...
Quote from: jabcat on August 06, 2009, 07:22:49 PM
How can one believe "poor" God lost control of His creation, and has been scrambling around ever since, just somehow hoping to find a way to some day get man back on track; if He can only convince powerful man that he has overpowered God's will and that's a no-no?
How is that an all-powerful God, reigning Supreme, Lord of heaven and earth? That's just not my view of "I AM".
God is to worshiped as the Almighty, not pitied as a weak underachiever.
Jab that post just goes to show how little you understand what I have been saying.
God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.
What you don't seem to understand is that what I just put forth in that little explination is that it matches up with the rest of scripture.
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.
What you guys do is make God and satan one, and what an assasination of Gods character that is. What concord has Christ with satan, NOTHING.
As for God soverneity, it denotes KINGSHIP, and the kingdom of this world are NOT YET the kingdoms of Christ.
Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth, if His will is being done on earth as you so obviously beleive then Jesus taught us a redundant prayer.
His reign does not start until the aionion age. And that is all backed up with scripture.
God said that it is not His will that any should perish, YET we know that people perish, WHY? because His will is NOT YET being done. You have to put God sovergnty where it belongs, in the kingdom age, where His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.to do otherwise is to make Gods word and will a lie.
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 08:33:46 PM
QuoteI think we might be making different points Scott. I am not really talking about why God made the choice or when. My point was about how evil played a part in Christ's death, how it was used to carry out God's intention for the sacrifice that God did.
yes we see it differently bro, God weaves the evil of this world for His purpose, but did not create the evil.
It might be a difference in how we understand "create." How each of use understands different terms is what can make these conversations difficult. I see that when God sacrificed Jesus, he caused evil to happen to Him for that purpose.
create1: to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth — Genesis 1:1(Authorized Version)>
2b: to produce or
bring about by a course of action or behavior (her arrival
created a terrible fuss)
-----------
It's like links in a chain. Evil existed in the world before Jesus was sacrificed 2000 years ago, and indeed I agree with you that God "weaved that evil" according to his purpose. In doing so, God "brought about" the murder of an innocent man,
an evil experience, weaving the evil that existed in man to save the world from sin through resurrection.
God created the evil that Jesus endured in that God brought it about. God created that evil to save the world.
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 08:57:36 PM
God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.
.....
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.
Scott,
The way I see it is that God even before creation knew mankind would sin.
So God doesn't need to make "provisions for every eventuality of man choices" because He knew the eventualities even before creation.
Even with that foreknowledge God still did create us the way we are. (I'm sure He could have created differently)
So He wasn't caught by suprise and did some patchwork to fix the problems.
He knew and accepted the problems even before He started.
We can't say the problems are due to incompetence of God. That would make Him not almighty.
So if God is perfection and everything He does is perfect how can His creation act in not perfect, as intended, way?
I admit I find it very strange; but I can only conclude this mess we are in is according to plan.
Quote from: Seth on August 06, 2009, 09:12:49 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 08:33:46 PM
QuoteI think we might be making different points Scott. I am not really talking about why God made the choice or when. My point was about how evil played a part in Christ's death, how it was used to carry out God's intention for the sacrifice that God did.
yes we see it differently bro, God weaves the evil of this world for His purpose, but did not create the evil.
It might be a difference in how we understand "create." How each of use understands different terms is what can make these conversations difficult. I see that when God sacrificed Jesus, he caused evil to happen to Him for that purpose.
create
1: to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth — Genesis 1:1(Authorized Version)>
2b: to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior (her arrival created a terrible fuss)
-----------
It's like links in a chain. Evil existed in the world before Jesus was sacrificed 2000 years ago, and indeed I agree with you that God "weaved that evil" according to his purpose. In doing so, God "brought about" the murder of an innocent man, an evil experience, weaving the evil that existed in man to save the world from sin through resurrection.
God created the evil that Jesus endured in that God brought it about. God created that evil to save the world.
Seth that is very close to what I am saying, if you reread God did not want to sacrifice His son, but because of disobedience He did so, I think we are very close.
God bless
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 06, 2009, 09:17:01 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 08:57:36 PM
God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.
.....
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.
Scott,
The way I see it is that God even before creation knew mankind would sin.
So God doesn't need to make "provisions for every eventuality of man choices" because He knew the eventualities even before creation.
Even with that foreknowledge God still did create us the way we are. (I'm sure He could have created differently)
So He wasn't caught by suprise and did some patchwork to fix the problems.
He knew and accepted the problems even before He started.
We can't say the problems are due to incompetence of God. That would make Him not almighty.
So if God is perfection and everything He does is perfect how can His creation act in not perfect, as intended, way?
I admit I find it very strange; but I can only conclude this mess we are in is according to plan.
Hi WW, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing correct?
God does predestine and God has foreknowledge correct?
Therefore, if God planned it all out this way and nothing can change His plan that predestination.
What than is the need of Gods foreknowledge?
If He has got it all planned out in advance to begin with, foreknowledge become redundant.
But if God because of His foreknowledge knew that man might sin because of their choices He gave them than made provision for every choice man makes shows forth an all knowing God.
Look at it this way, the choices I have made in life are not likely the choices you have made in life, but God still met us in the different choices we each made.
You know what is ironic about all this brother?
Is that if a Calvinist came to this board and said God predestined people to be torment, everyone would jump all over the Calvinist and say no God did not, yet that same predestination that the Calvinists believe in is running rampant on this board.
For what the difference in the Calvinist saying God predestined people for torment and saying God planned for people to be tormented. NOTHING
willieH: Hi PM... :cloud9:
Quote from: willieHSomething ROUGH can be made SMOOTHER by processing, or something INSIDE can be moved OUTSIDE, or something HOT can become COLD... :blah: :blahgreen: ...Moving DIRECTIONALLY away from one state toward the other...
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMAnd the opposite of one thing is the absence of the other.
I disagree with this... No matter HOW FAR or how long, you travel WEST, does this mean only WEST eventually becomes the only available direction to travel?
The TRUTH is, that wherever you are, BOTH directions are available at ALL TIMES. And BOTH directions define in WHICH of them you are "headed". :dontknow:
What about the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL? Even though EVIL shall be absent from MANIFESTATION, does not mean that it NO LONGER IS available as a "KNOWLEDGE". And because it is present as a KNOWLEDGE means that it has "PRESENCE" in its OPPOSITENESS... Which remains to serve to MAGNIFY and DEFINE, good.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMThe freezing point of water is 32 ° Fahrenheit, or 0 ° Celsius.
And we know what absolute zero is, but that is not the point.
The "POINT" is... that MAN cannot set ABSOLUTES... Only GOD can set ABSOLUTES.
Quote from: willieHHow "DARK" is absolute DARK? Or can ABSOLUTE LIGHT, be enhanced by adding the light of a CANDLE or a MATCH? :dontknow:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMAre you referring to His Light, and that of a candle that "adds to" in contrast to that which IS ?
I am saying that LIGHT can be ENHANCED by MORE LIGHT. If I have a pocket flashlight and go into a darkened room... it affords "light" to a small degree... but when I turn on the ELECTRIC LIGHTS in the room... MORE LIGHT is afforded.
Quote from: willieHAre you sure?
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AM"Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual."
My point is that, the DEAD are STILL alive in GOD... for GOD is not the GOD of the DEAD. If there are those who are COMPLETELY DEAD, then is GOD not "their God"?
GOD is the GOD of ALL THINGS, whether they be "temporarily" DEAD, either SPIRITUALLY or PHYSCIALLY... One can be DEAD spiritually, yet ALIVE physically... and vice versa. Yet GOD remains their GOD, even though DIRECTIONALLY they are removed from the observation of LIFE.
Quote from: willieHCHRIST said of LIVING BEINGS -- "let the DEAD, bury their DEAD"... The ones referred to were ALIVE... so even though they were DEAD (in spiritual terms), they were STILL ALIVE (in physical terms)! In either CASE, Life is determined by GOD, and even though DEATH marks the absence of LIFE (which I agree with), Life can still remain.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMAs stated in the above quote, death is the absence of life, not difficult to digest for either of us. And a body without the [HIS] Spirit is dead, so whether physically alive or not, matters not.
NOTHING within GOD is truly DEAD... and ALL THINGS are ...IN HIM... :dontknow:
Quote from: willieHAs I see it, ...NOTHING in GOD is ever completely DEAD, for it is IN HIM -- Acts 17:28 -- It is moving from one state DIRECTIONALLY, to another... Those of whom CHRIST spoke in this reference, may have later converted and become "UNDEAD" :laughing7:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMA change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life
This observation STILL does not remove DEATH completely, for "DEATH" is part of the DEFINITION of what "life", ...IS! As I said, ...
opposites are more DIRECTIONAL, than POSITIONAL.
Quote from: willieHGOD says in His WORD -- Psalm 103:12 -- that He will remove our sins [transgressions] as "FAR" as the EAST -- "IS" -- from the WEST... where does ONE "begin" and the OTHER "end"? IOW -- At what point, does EAST end, and WEST begin? :laughhand:
And if this is not so (one "ends", the other "begins") ...exactly WHEN and WHERE does EAST become WEST? And thereby MERGE into its "opposite" direction, actually BECOMING its own OPPOSITE? :mshock:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMIndeed, but not a reference to going in a circle, like around this EARTHLY habitat.
East and West are directions, not POSITIONS... They are only "positions" when referenced from another PLACE. However... even though one is in the EAST, he CAN move WEST, and never arrive in the WEST completely for there are things WEST of where he "arrives"...
For instance... even though we arrive in Los Angeles on a trip from New York, ...New York is "East" of us, yet if we continue traveling WEST, we shall again, eventually arrive in New York... New York is both
EAST AND WEST -- of LOS ANGELES...
Quote from: willieHWhen the Prodigal SON left... He was actually taking his first steps on his way, back.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMA change in position from death to life, let us return:
"There would be no need for correction, if we didn't have the will of making a choice; and there would be no choice, if there weren't circumstances."
Don't know why you made this quote, nor where it is from, I find it irrelevant.
No matter HOW "righteous" you become PM... "Unrighteousness" remains right next to you... for you could abstain from stealing for an UNCOUNTABLE period, yet to take what is not yours, is there during the ENTIRETY of that PERIOD. It is therefore,
NOT absent. It is only abstained from, by an active LIVING within RIGHTEOUSNESS...
GOD knew both GOOD and EVIL, and is an ETERNAL entity. Which means that even though He does not DO Evil, does not mean that it is ABSENT. It is just not practiced in HIS way of LIVING... and WE are to follow suit.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMThus, would concur that a change of ones heart from evil is directional, but upon completion; it's a new position in the absence of the old.
Not really. :laughing7:
It is just CONTINUALLY traveling (living) in the OPPOSITE direction of evil... EVIL remains at ALL TIMES, as the DEFINITION of that DIRECTION (which you maintain as a "position")
:Peace: me-bratha :afFro:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 08:57:36 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 06, 2009, 07:22:49 PM
How can one believe "poor" God lost control of His creation, and has been scrambling around ever since, just somehow hoping to find a way to some day get man back on track; if He can only convince powerful man that he has overpowered God's will and that's a no-no?
How is that an all-powerful God, reigning Supreme, Lord of heaven and earth? That's just not my view of "I AM".
God is to worshiped as the Almighty, not pitied as a weak underachiever.
Jab that post just goes to show how little you understand what I have been saying.
God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.
What you don't seem to understand is that what I just put forth in that little explination is that it matches up with the rest of scripture.
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.
What you guys do is make God and satan one, and what an assasination of Gods character that is. What concord has Christ with satan, NOTHING.
As for God soverneity, it denotes KINGSHIP, and the kingdom of this world are NOT YET the kingdoms of Christ.
Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth, if His will is being done on earth as you so obviously beleive then Jesus taught us a redundant prayer.
His reign does not start until the aionion age. And that is all backed up with scripture.
God said that it is not His will that any should perish, YET we know that people perish, WHY? because His will is NOT YET being done. You have to put God sovergnty where it belongs, in the kingdom age, where His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.to do otherwise is to make Gods word and will a lie.
A couple of things here. Hebrews says all things
are already subjected to Christ, yet we do not yet
see them subjected. The difference is one of perception.
Some of us believe (for scriptural reasons) that his reign has already begun. We can't put God's sovereignty only in some "kingdom age", because God is always sovereign. He may not appear to be sovereign on earth right now, but as Hebrews points out, appearances can be deceiving.
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 08:31:22 PM
Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing, no one is predestinated to sin
Sounds familiar, simple and to the point. :gthumbsup:
Well Doc if He is sovereign on earth like you believe, why are people perishing against His will?
Why did Jesus teach us to pray thy will be done on earth if it already was? That would be redundant would it not.
Quote from: Doc on August 06, 2009, 10:33:28 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 08:57:36 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 06, 2009, 07:22:49 PM
How can one believe "poor" God lost control of His creation, and has been scrambling around ever since, just somehow hoping to find a way to some day get man back on track; if He can only convince powerful man that he has overpowered God's will and that's a no-no?
How is that an all-powerful God, reigning Supreme, Lord of heaven and earth? That's just not my view of "I AM".
God is to worshiped as the Almighty, not pitied as a weak underachiever.
Jab that post just goes to show how little you understand what I have been saying.
God never lost control of anything, God gave man a choice, life or death, man chose death.
Because God foreknows all things, He knew that man could use that choice to enter into death and being the master planner He is made provisions for every eventuality of man choices.
What you don't seem to understand is that what I just put forth in that little explination is that it matches up with the rest of scripture.
The beleif that God planned for sin and disobedience from the get go CANNOT be found in scripture for a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, and tares are of the devil.
What you guys do is make God and satan one, and what an assasination of Gods character that is. What concord has Christ with satan, NOTHING.
As for God soverneity, it denotes KINGSHIP, and the kingdom of this world are NOT YET the kingdoms of Christ.
Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth, if His will is being done on earth as you so obviously beleive then Jesus taught us a redundant prayer.
His reign does not start until the aionion age. And that is all backed up with scripture.
God said that it is not His will that any should perish, YET we know that people perish, WHY? because His will is NOT YET being done. You have to put God sovergnty where it belongs, in the kingdom age, where His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.to do otherwise is to make Gods word and will a lie.
A couple of things here. Hebrews says all things are already subjected to Christ, yet we do not yet see them subjected. The difference is one of perception.
Some of us believe (for scriptural reasons) that his reign has already begun. We can't put God's sovereignty only in some "kingdom age", because God is always sovereign. He may not appear to be sovereign on earth right now, but as Hebrews points out, appearances can be deceiving.
God also calls those things that are NOT as though they were.
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 09:55:06 PM
Hi WW, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing correct?
Agreed. But on the scale of perfection God works on they become the same... (see below)
QuoteGod does predestine and God has foreknowledge correct?
Yes.
QuoteTherefore, if God planned it all out this way and nothing can change His plan that predestination.
What than is the need of Gods foreknowledge?
If He has got it all planned out in advance to begin with, foreknowledge become redundant.
Depends how you look at it. You could say the foreknowledge is of no use. You could also say God can use the foreknowledge to base His plans on.
Besides of that what is the problem that Gods far far more/to much to handle His creation?
His powers my be overkill but that's just the way He is.
QuoteBut if God because of His foreknowledge knew that man might sin because of their choices He gave them than made provision for every choice man makes shows forth an all knowing God.
The question is did He really give choices? Take for example a moth. I always flies toward the light. Even if it is a flame.
We are moths too. And our flame is called sin. We are warned about the flame but our urge to fly to the light/flame is so overwelming we can stop ourselfs. So do we/the moth really have a choice?
QuoteLook at it this way, the choices I have made in life are not likely the choices you have made in life, but God still met us in the different choices we each made.
Did we make different choices or where we presented different flames...?
QuoteYou know what is ironic about all this brother?
Is that if a Calvinist came to this board and said God predestined people to be torment, everyone would jump all over the Calvinist and say no God did not, yet that same predestination that the Calvinists believe in is running rampant on this board.
For what the difference in the Calvinist saying God predestined people for torment and saying God planned for people to be tormented. NOTHING
A big difference I think Scott. I think the main problem UR-people have with Calvinist is not predestination. Some UR-people believe in that too. The main problem lays in the end result. Eternal torture in real flames or eternal bliss in Heaven. Yes, I have my thoughts/reservations to that path to heaven. I find His plan weird/not understandble. Etc.
But I rather live in a completed UR-plan than I live in a completed ET-plan.
So to recap. My view is that God has firm in/direct control of good and evil (did you read my posts about bara in this thread) If He hasn't that means He has made some mistake designing and/or managing His creation. I think that's not the case.
Another certainty is that you don't agree with me. That's no problem with me. Maybe one of us or both alter their views.
But not today I fear :HeartThrob:
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 10:42:44 PM
Well Doc if He is sovereign on earth like you believe, why are people perishing against His will?
Why did Jesus teach us to pray thy will be done on earth if it already was? That would be redundant would it not.
Depends partly on what you mean by perishing, but I'd say that nothing is happening against his ultimate intention. There is a difference in Greek between his stated will and his ultimate intention. Often his stated will is gone against, even by Him, specifically to accomplish His ultimate intention. Does this damage the sovereignty of God? Absolutely not.
As part of my sig. says, God doesn't want us to pray in order to change Him, but to change us. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is a statement of subjection to His will on our part, not a magic spell we use that's actually going to make it happen. Only God through his life in us is going to make that a visible reality in this earthly realm; the power lies with Him, not in our uttering of certain words.
Also, God has the authority to call those things that are not as though they are; partly because he knows (and is) the beginning and the end.
Are you really trying to say that God's sovereignty is limited? Or are you just trying to get him off the hook, when He has made it plain that though He holds us individually accountable, He is ultimately responsible, directly or indirectly...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 06, 2009, 10:55:14 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 09:55:06 PM
Hi WW, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing correct?
Agreed. But on the scale of perfection God works on they become the same... (see below)
QuoteGod does predestine and God has foreknowledge correct?
Yes.
QuoteTherefore, if God planned it all out this way and nothing can change His plan that predestination.
What than is the need of Gods foreknowledge?
If He has got it all planned out in advance to begin with, foreknowledge become redundant.
Depends how you look at it. You could say the foreknowledge is of no use. You could also say God can use the foreknowledge to base His plans on.
Besides of that what is the problem that Gods far far more/to much to handle His creation?
His powers my be overkill but that's just the way He is.
QuoteBut if God because of His foreknowledge knew that man might sin because of their choices He gave them than made provision for every choice man makes shows forth an all knowing God.
The question is did He really give choices? Take for example a moth. I always flies toward the light. Even if it is a flame.
We are moths too. And our flame is called sin. We are warned about the flame but our urge to fly to the light/flame is so overwelming we can stop ourselfs. So do we/the moth really have a choice?
QuoteLook at it this way, the choices I have made in life are not likely the choices you have made in life, but God still met us in the different choices we each made.
Did we make different choices or where we presented different flames...?
QuoteYou know what is ironic about all this brother?
Is that if a Calvinist came to this board and said God predestined people to be torment, everyone would jump all over the Calvinist and say no God did not, yet that same predestination that the Calvinists believe in is running rampant on this board.
For what the difference in the Calvinist saying God predestined people for torment and saying God planned for people to be tormented. NOTHING
A big difference I think Scott. I think the main problem UR-people have with Calvinist is not predestination. Some UR-people believe in that too. The main problem lays in the end result. Eternal torture in real flames or eternal bliss in Heaven. Yes, I have my thoughts/reservations to that path to heaven. I find His plan weird/not understandble. Etc.
But I rather live in a completed UR-plan than I live in a completed ET-plan.
So to recap. My view is that God has firm in/direct control of good and evil (did you read my posts about bara in this thread) If He hasn't that means He has made some mistake designing and/or managing His creation. I think that's not the case.
Another certainty is that you don't agree with me. That's no problem with me. Maybe one of us or both alter their views.
But not today I fear :HeartThrob:
Hi WW, the scriptures state we have the choice between life and death, choose life.
I don't care how one want to go around this scripture it must mesh with the rest.
If everything is planned and unalterable than no choice at all, no matter how you look at it we are than just puppets on a string. And I do not understand how people cannot see that.
No scripture that I am aware of state we are predestinated to sin and death, we are ONLY predestinated to LIFE in Christ not death in Adam.
I also believe God is in control because He know our every choice and will meet us in that choice, David said I make my bed in Hell and you are with me, he never said YOU made my bed in hell and are with me.
Quote from: Doc on August 06, 2009, 11:16:27 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 10:42:44 PM
Well Doc if He is sovereign on earth like you believe, why are people perishing against His will?
Why did Jesus teach us to pray thy will be done on earth if it already was? That would be redundant would it not.
Depends partly on what you mean by perishing, but I'd say that nothing is happening against his ultimate intention. There is a difference in Greek between his stated will and his ultimate intention. Often his stated will is gone against, even by Him, specifically to accomplish His ultimate intention. Does this damage the sovereignty of God? Absolutely not.
As part of my sig. says, God doesn't want us to pray in order to change Him, but to change us. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is a statement of subjection to His will on our part, not a magic spell we use that's actually going to make it happen. Only God through his life in us is going to make that a visible reality in this earthly realm; the power lies with Him, not in our uttering of certain words.
Also, God has the authority to call those things that are not as though they are; partly because he knows (and is) the beginning and the end.
Are you really trying to say that God's sovereignty is limited? Or are you just trying to get him off the hook, when He has made it plain that though He holds us individually accountable, He is ultimately responsible, directly or indirectly...
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/08/free-will-choice-between-life-and-death.html
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 11:45:03 PM
Quote from: Doc on August 06, 2009, 11:16:27 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 10:42:44 PM
Well Doc if He is sovereign on earth like you believe, why are people perishing against His will?
Why did Jesus teach us to pray thy will be done on earth if it already was? That would be redundant would it not.
Depends partly on what you mean by perishing, but I'd say that nothing is happening against his ultimate intention. There is a difference in Greek between his stated will and his ultimate intention. Often his stated will is gone against, even by Him, specifically to accomplish His ultimate intention. Does this damage the sovereignty of God? Absolutely not.
As part of my sig. says, God doesn't want us to pray in order to change Him, but to change us. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" is a statement of subjection to His will on our part, not a magic spell we use that's actually going to make it happen. Only God through his life in us is going to make that a visible reality in this earthly realm; the power lies with Him, not in our uttering of certain words.
Also, God has the authority to call those things that are not as though they are; partly because he knows (and is) the beginning and the end.
Are you really trying to say that God's sovereignty is limited? Or are you just trying to get him off the hook, when He has made it plain that though He holds us individually accountable, He is ultimately responsible, directly or indirectly...
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/08/free-will-choice-between-life-and-death.html
While this doesn't directly address the points I raised; after reading that, I have some questions for you.
Do you believe that man's "freewill" (choices) can ever trump God's ultimate intention? (I agree that we can go against His stated will for us, for a time; but you concede the point that perishing does not limit the ability for salvation at some point).
Who gives us the ability to even make the "right" choice? (The choice which lines up with His stated will)
If God chooses to withhold the ability (even for a time, by not giving the ability) to make the choice that lines up with His stated will; does that entail "freewill"?
Does any of this affect God's sovereignty?
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and harden whom I will harden".
He works all things according to the counsel of
his will.
so it begins :laughing7:
I suspect we're saying much the same thing from different perspectives. Pneuma's saying half empty, I'm saying half full. I'm not trying to start an argument over free will, because I think when it comes down to it, free will is a question of semantics. It's not a biblical term. I'm just trying to get clarification on what's being asserted.
Quote from: Doc on August 07, 2009, 12:54:43 AM
While this doesn't directly address the points I raised; after reading that, I have some questions for you.
Do you believe that man's "freewill" (choices) can ever trump God's ultimate intention? (I agree that we can go against His stated will for us, for a time; but you concede the point that perishing does not limit the ability for salvation at some point).
Who gives us the ability to even make the "right" choice? (The choice which lines up with His stated will)
If God chooses to withhold the ability (even for a time, by not giving the ability) to make the choice that lines up with His stated will; does that entail "freewill"?
Does any of this affect God's sovereignty?
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and harden whom I will harden".
:cloud9: Not to me, it doesn't. Blessings.....
:hihat: Willie
Quote from: willieHSomething ROUGH can be made SMOOTHER by processing, or something INSIDE can be moved OUTSIDE, or something HOT can become COLD... :blah: :blahgreen: ...Moving DIRECTIONALLY away from one state toward the other...
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMAnd the opposite of one thing is the absence of the other.
QuoteI disagree with this... No matter HOW FAR or how long, you travel WEST, does this mean only WEST eventually becomes the only available direction to travel?
The TRUTH is, that wherever you are, BOTH directions are available at ALL TIMES. And BOTH directions define in WHICH of them you are "headed". :dontknow:
What about the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL? Even though EVIL shall be absent from MANIFESTATION, does not mean that it NO LONGER IS available as a "KNOWLEDGE". And because it is present as a KNOWLEDGE means that it has "PRESENCE" in its OPPOSITENESS... Which remains to serve to MAGNIFY and DEFINE, good.
Knowing of something (evil) and doing it, is entirely two different things. And according to you this directional thing has the tendency of ending up back where you started. A universal thought, but this doing of evil is linear. Thus, are we here to gain this knowledge of evil from suffering? In other words, did Christ Jesus learn evil from the things He suffered? Is this your fortified position or direction, that He was to learn evil?
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMThe freezing point of water is 32 ° Fahrenheit, or 0 ° Celsius.
And we know what absolute zero is, but that is not the point.
QuoteThe "POINT" is... that MAN cannot set ABSOLUTES... Only GOD can set ABSOLUTES.
Never stated that man could, so, let's not make a mountain out of a molehill just because the word "absolute zero" was used to make a different point.
Quote from: willieHHow "DARK" is absolute DARK? Or can ABSOLUTE LIGHT, be enhanced by adding the light of a CANDLE or a MATCH? :dontknow:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMAre you referring to His Light, and that of a candle that "adds to" in contrast to that which IS ?
QuoteI am saying that LIGHT can be ENHANCED by MORE LIGHT. If I have a pocket flashlight and go into a darkened room... it affords "light" to a small degree... but when I turn on the ELECTRIC LIGHTS in the room... MORE LIGHT is afforded.
No need to purchase a separate flashlight for better, "Homes and Gardens," as: "There is no darkness in Him."
So, if there is no darkness in him, what are His attributes without using worldly syncretism?
Quote from: willieHAre you sure?
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AM"Death is the absence of life; whether it is physical or spiritual."
QuoteMy point is that, the DEAD are STILL alive in GOD... for GOD is not the GOD of the DEAD. If there are those who are COMPLETELY DEAD, then is GOD not "their God"?
GOD is the GOD of ALL THINGS, whether they be "temporarily" DEAD, either SPIRITUALLY or PHYSCIALLY... One can be DEAD spiritually, yet ALIVE physically... and vice versa. Yet GOD remains their GOD, even though DIRECTIONALLY they are removed from the observation of LIFE.
Again, never stated this, that He was not, although I understand you wanting to make these points.
Quote from: willieHCHRIST said of LIVING BEINGS -- "let the DEAD, bury their DEAD"... The ones referred to were ALIVE... so even though they were DEAD (in spiritual terms), they were STILL ALIVE (in physical terms)! In either CASE, Life is determined by GOD, and even though DEATH marks the absence of LIFE (which I agree with), Life can still remain.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMAs stated in the above quote, death is the absence of life, not difficult to digest for either of us. And a body without the [HIS] Spirit is dead, so whether physically alive or not, matters not.
QuoteNOTHING within GOD is truly DEAD... and ALL THINGS are ...IN HIM... :dontknow:
Quote from: willieHAs I see it, ...NOTHING in GOD is ever completely DEAD, for it is IN HIM -- Acts 17:28 -- It is moving from one state DIRECTIONALLY, to another... Those of whom CHRIST spoke in this reference, may have later converted and become "UNDEAD" :laughing7:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMA change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life
QuoteThis observation STILL does not remove DEATH completely, for "DEATH" is part of the DEFINITION of what "life", ...IS! As I said, ...opposites are more DIRECTIONAL, than POSITIONAL.
A change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life.
Quote from: willieHGOD says in His WORD -- Psalm 103:12 -- that He will remove our sins [transgressions] as "FAR" as the EAST -- "IS" -- from the WEST... where does ONE "begin" and the OTHER "end"? IOW -- At what point, does EAST end, and WEST begin? :laughhand:
And if this is not so (one "ends", the other "begins") ...exactly WHEN and WHERE does EAST become WEST? And thereby MERGE into its "opposite" direction, actually BECOMING its own OPPOSITE? :mshock:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMIndeed, but not a reference to going in a circle, like around this EARTHLY habitat.
QuoteEast and West are directions, not POSITIONS... They are only "positions" when referenced from another PLACE. However... even though one is in the EAST, he CAN move WEST, and never arrive in the WEST completely for there are things WEST of where he "arrives"...
For instance... even though we arrive in Los Angeles on a trip from New York, ...New York is "East" of us, yet if we continue traveling WEST, we shall again, eventually arrive in New York... New York is both EAST AND WEST -- of LOS ANGELES...
Quote from: willieHWhen the Prodigal SON left... He was actually taking his first steps on his way, back.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMA change in position from death to life, let us return:
"There would be no need for correction, if we didn't have the will of making a choice; and there would be no choice, if there weren't circumstances."
QuoteDon't know why you made this quote, nor where it is from, I find it irrelevant.
It's a personal quote within this thread, however, relevant to "let us return" from death to life.
QuoteNo matter HOW "righteous" you become PM... "Unrighteousness" remains right next to you... for you could abstain from stealing for an UNCOUNTABLE period, yet to take what is not yours, is there during the ENTIRETY of that PERIOD. It is therefore, NOT absent. It is only abstained from, by an active LIVING within RIGHTEOUSNESS...
GOD knew both GOOD and EVIL, and is an ETERNAL entity. Which means that even though He does not DO Evil, does not mean that it is ABSENT. It is just not practiced in HIS way of LIVING... and WE are to follow suit.
Self-denial, as in merely abstinent?
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMThus, would concur that a change of ones heart from evil is directional, but upon completion; it's a new position in the absence of the old.
QuoteNot really. :laughing7:
It is just CONTINUALLY traveling (living) in the OPPOSITE direction of evil... EVIL remains at ALL TIMES, as the DEFINITION of that DIRECTION (which you maintain as a "position")
"An infinite circulating means of exchange for philanthropy?"A personal quote/question in response to the "Evil that remains at ALL TIMES."
His generous act to improve the human condition IS through CHRIST JESUS ...
... not EVIL.
peacemaker
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 11:38:39 PM
Hi WW, the scriptures state we have the choice between life and death, choose life.
I don't care how one want to go around this scripture it must mesh with the rest..
Sorry but you also see to go around many things said above. The truth is when all verses/facts are used. Not a nice selection.
QuoteIf everything is planned and unalterable than no choice at all, no matter how you look at it we are than just puppets on a string. And I do not understand how people cannot see that.
The scriptures also state "noone can come to me unless Father drags you"
Kinda sounds God pulling some strings once in a while....
QuoteNo scripture that I am aware of state we are predestinated to sin and death,
There are no scriptures either that claim that Father can walk on water. Or sit on the sun without burning.
But just taking His unlimited powers we can conclude those things would be of no problem to Him.
What I'm trying to say here is that certain statements have far reaching consequences.
That's what I try to explain in my previous posts. Won't bother you with a rehash of the same :happygrin:
There are many things I don't understand. Despite accusation otherwise, I believe I have at least a fair understanding of the belief system (of what I perceive to be the faulty concept) on which much of the OP's supporting beliefs and commentary are based. While in mainstream religion I shared much of the same beliefs for the first 40+ years of my life. I believe we all do this to some degree, me included, but I also understand that when we believe an inaccurate precept, then we attempt to add other inaccurate precepts upon it; with one trying to justify and reconcile the other. And I also understand that just saying one's particular POV lines up with the rest of scripture doesn't necessarily make it so. If we took a poll, I'd guess close to 100% of us each believe that's true about our own particular beliefs. So "don't understand"? It's perhaps more so, "don't agree".
I have no illusions of convincing someone who's already made up their mind, or expect them to agree. Only God can do that with any of us. However, anyone who is still honestly, openly seeking and may be confused by what scripture actually says, may benefit from these comments.
I believe when we view this topic, our view is often too much on a) our human reasonings, rather that just belief and trust, taking God for what He says and humbly walking with it before Him , and b) set too much on the temporal earthly view, as opposed to a "heavenly, immortal, ages without end" view. In essence, the things we try to explain away, are often the very things God has said He does and are things He uses to bring about His ULTIMATE purposes. Which is to WORK ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, and ALL THINGS FOR OUR GOOD...ULITMATELY!
Scripture says our death is blessed in God's eyes - in essence, we are going on into His glory. So we may not understand His ways, but our view is based on OUR UNDERSTANDING, and limited within our understanding of TIME and THIS LIFE- not "eternal" (for lack of a better word) and with the FULL view of things which God has. So we often attempt to explain such things through our own human imaginations that make sense to us, not a full view of "thus sayeth the Lord".
The OP states alternate renderings for this; "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." But if one reads on in this same chapter of Isaiah, we find this; "9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!....Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways:....saith the LORD of hosts."....also, "there is no God but one" (so much for the "some other 'Lord' in the OT theory!).
The Holy Spirit through the Book of Amos says (Amos 3:6) "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be ra'ah [disaster, calamity, difficulty] in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
There are so many scriptures to make this point that God is indeed Lord of heaven and earth, and that He makes peace and creates evil, but I will just include one more; "The LORD of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced evil against you because of the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me by offering up sacrifices to Baal" Jeremiah 11:17
I don't see where God has added "NOT ANY MORE" to Isaiah 45:7.
Quote from: jabcat on August 07, 2009, 08:43:50 AM
In essence, the things we try to explain away, are often the very things God has said He does and are things He uses to bring about His ULTIMATE purposes. Which is to WORK ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, and ALL THINGS FOR OUR GOOD...ULITMATELY!
This is definitely the foundation we should all stand on with regards to this topic. No matter what we may each ponder. It all goes back to what you just said. His ultimate purpose is to work all things for our good. That's very comforting. The creator of the universe... imagine that. I am part of His ultimate purposes... to work things out for my good. Pretty humbling, esp. when you personalize it that way.
Thanks jabcat. :HeartThrob:
Amen Sister Sparrow. Oh how He loves you and me. We see it only through a glass darkly, but when the realization you just shared breaks through; despite all things we either don't understand about God and His awesome ways, or even go through all our conniptions trying to explain it away (heck, I do it too!), He still loves us. All of us, warts and all!
Blessings to you!
You've both made a lot of very good, scripturally sound points WW and Doc :thumbsup:.
The point is, God is God, and we're not. He knows what's best for us. Even when He brings calamity, hardships (or even allows them) His ULTIMATE purpose is for GOOD! So no matter, He is good. He just uses what He knows works best and must be used to bring about His will. And it is a good will. He will have ALL THE NATIONS BE BLESSED THROUGH HIS DEAR SON, JESUS! NO IFS, ANDS, OR BUTS.
Our role is not to question Him or tell Him what He really meant :mblush:. "He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justly; to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8
Blessings to you all, including you, dear brother Scott. Although I clearly disagree with much of what you're espousing here on this PARTICULAR thread, you are still a beloved child of the Most High, and my brother in the Lord. I'm not right about everything, and (you don't have to admit it, I'll admit it for you :laughing7:) you're not right about everything. I'll say it again, we're all His work in progress. :HeartThrob:
For us all, as the redeemed by the blood and saved by His grace - don't we think at some point (especially if there's nothing new to add and we're just going 'round in circles struggling needlessly with each other) that we need to back off these type discussions and go back to proclaiming "Hey world, Jesus is the Savior! Believe on Him and have life more abundantly!"
For Sister Sparrow;
Like a dreamer that was trying to build
A highway to the sky
All my hopes would come tumblin down
And I never knew just why
Until today when You pulled away the clouds
That hung like curtains on my eyes.
I was blind all these wasted years when
I thought I was so wise.
But then You took me by surprise.
Like waking up from the longest dream
How real it seemed
Until Your love broke through
And I was lost in a fantasy
That blinded me
Until your love broke through.
All my life I have been searching
For that crazy missing part
With one touch You just rolled away
The stone that held my heart,
Now I see that the answer was as simple
As my need to let love in
And I am so sure I could never doubt
Your gentle touch again
It's like the power of the wind.
Like waking up from the longest dream
How real it seemed
Until Your love broke through
And I was lost in a fantasy
That blinded me
Until your love broke through.
Written By Keith Green & Randy Stonehill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfLe59ekLzA
:HeartThrob:
I'd like to say that most of what I've said in this thread has been based on OT passages. It might be worth considering that there has been a shift at least to some degree now in this age of grace, as we're blessed and God is reconciled to us throught the grace of His Son Yesu.
I think of the "shadow of better things to come", and I'd like to qualify a lot of what I've said in the light of the dispensation of grace - which is probably another topic unto itself! :bigGrin:
I do believe God did just what He said He did in the OT. He also apparently brought judgment to Ananias, Sapphira, and one of the Herods that took God's glory for himself and was eaten up with worms in the NT. IMO, those things weren't by accident or God just turning His back. As I understand, He purposed it, and then either allowed it or directly did it. And maybe He will still use an experience of evil to teach us today whenever He deems it necessary and useful. (Ever prayed for patience? What happened when you did? :mshock:) But still we also have the scripture of the "Happy God" since His Son's death and resurrection. Personally, I'd rather not try to explain away what God clearly says He did. However, IMO, that should also include His mercy upon us through the sacrifice of the Innocent Lamb...Who's mercies are now being bestowed upon us. All praise, honor and glory to the Father.
God's blessings, James.
Hi Doc. As I cannot quote things the way I use to (the board jumps all over the place, can't even see what I am typing, and if I try to quote individual statements it really goes haywire) I will try to answer your questions the best I can, but if I miss answering one let me know ok.
Actually, it did answer your question Doc, perishing is the same perishing used in God not does not will that any should perish.
So if it is not His will that any perish, yet people perish throughout scripture obviously they are perishing against His will.
I know people talk about God permissive or stated will and Gods ultimate will, but Gods will is God will. Permissive will is mans invention to understand how people can go against God will.
No mans choices cannot trump God's ultimate plan.
But Gods ultimate plan is to make us in His image and likeness.
In the garden man had the right to the tree of life but because of mans choice he lost that right. So if God planned man to be disobedient from the get go why was the tree of life in the garden?
Gods ultimate plan was and is through the tree of life, NOT through disobedience and death. Mans ways=death, Gods ways=Life the two ways are contradictory to each other, yet many seem to believe Gods ways include man's ways, go figure.
There are two ways to Gods ultimate plan of making man in His image and likeness, the strait gate and the broad way that leadeth to destruction, and it depends on mans choices which way man goes. God predestines man to LIFE and man will ultimately find that LIFE, God does not predestine man to sin and disobedience.
God does not withhold mans choices, they are always open to man, but He will limit mans choices once man is disobedient. Adam could freely eat from the tree of life, but after his disobedience, he could not access that tree again until he went through fire and sword.
The strait gate and the broad way was before him, he chose the broad way through fire and sword, but he could have chose LIFE from the get go.
No none of this affects God's sovereignty, because Gods sovereignty is NOT of this world. Like I have said before sovereignty denotes kingship, and we don't find that kingship on this earth until the kingdom age when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ, it is only then that He will reign (be sovereign) on earth just like He is in Heaven.
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven
Note that the prayer not only says thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, but that the prayer is also for His KINGDOM to come. It is NOT a redundant prayer, therefore His kingdom has NOT come, and His will is not being done YET on this earth.
Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and that mercy extends to all. As to God hardening whom He will is according to mans disobedience, all through scripture we see this happening, the people disobey and God than hardens their hearts. But God does not harden people's hearts in the way most seem to understand it, God speaks the truth and it is the truth that He speaks that harden men's hearts. Example: we all know that the truth is that God will save all men, yet when we speak this truth we can see how this truth hardens people's hearts towards us and the truth.
Yes God works all things according to the counsel of his will, but can you find in scripture that God's will is for sin and disobedience?
Sin and disobedience are NOT according to the counsel of God's will.
What people think that scripture is referring to is that because God works according to His will, it must mean that He then willed for man's disobedience and sin, but we know that disobedience and sin is NOT according to His will.
People perishing are NOT according to His will, yet many seem to think it is according to His will.
I am not going to dwell on this point but you said freewill is not even recorded in scripture, and many seem to believe that without actually looking at the scriptures to if that is true, or they try to look it up by looking for free will, but it is not two words it is one word, freewill and it is used in scripture 26 times in the OT.
I'll just give you two, you can look up the rest if you want to.
Leviticus 23:38
38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
Ezekiel 46:12
12 Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate.
So you can see freewill is in scripture and it must then be taken into account to make the scriptures mesh with each other. For it should go without saying if we leave out scripture we can make the bible say anything we want it to.
God bless
Quotestates alternate renderings for this; "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." But if one reads on in this same chapter of Isaiah, we find this; "9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!....Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways:....saith the LORD of hosts."....also, "there is no God but one" (so much for the "some other 'Lord' in the OT theory!).
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. 13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. 14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken? 15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.
Here we see God saying that because of the evil man does in disobeying His voice God himself will visit evil upon them "I make peace, and create evil".
So how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?
Or how does God create evil?
Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.
Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".
And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.
Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts.
Do we not see this same principle brought out here
Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Septuagint
7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?
Now lets jump down to verses 16 & 17
In the KJV these scriptures seem to be saying God created the smith that bloweth the coals and the waster to destroy.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
Now lets look at the Septuagint for a TOTALLY different view then what the KJV seems to present.
Septuagint
16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.
Which version seems to be more in lines with God who is love and love worketh NO evil?
You will all have to decide that for yourselves but I would like to point out one more thing concerning those verses.
If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?
Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 02:24:11 PM
Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and that mercy extends to all. As to God hardening whom He will is according to mans disobedience, all through scripture we see this happening, the people disobey and God than hardens their hearts. But God does not harden people's hearts in the way most seem to understand it, God speaks the truth and it is the truth that He speaks that harden men's hearts. Example: we all know that the truth is that God will save all men, yet when we speak this truth we can see how this truth hardens people's hearts towards us and the truth.
:thumbsup:
underlining by me:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for
God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;
so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but
became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God
also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:28 And even as they
did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
the order here is interesting: 1. know God 2. disobey, reject God 3. God hardens heart.
Quote from: Zeek on August 07, 2009, 02:39:03 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 02:24:11 PM
Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and that mercy extends to all. As to God hardening whom He will is according to mans disobedience, all through scripture we see this happening, the people disobey and God than hardens their hearts. But God does not harden people's hearts in the way most seem to understand it, God speaks the truth and it is the truth that He speaks that harden men's hearts. Example: we all know that the truth is that God will save all men, yet when we speak this truth we can see how this truth hardens people's hearts towards us and the truth.
:thumbsup:
underlining by me:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
the order here is interesting: 1. know God 2. disobey, reject God 3. God hardens heart.
Amen Zeek :thumbsup:
Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.
Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.
Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
cp
Hey Pneuma, I have the exact same problem when typing out replies here. After a few sentences the jump all over the place. What I do is hit quote and when the text appears in this post reply box I copy all of it and paste it in Word and then write out my message and then copy it all from Word back to this reply box and then it all comes out right.
I thought it was my computer but if it is happening to you too then........???
cp
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 02:31:08 PM
If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?
Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?
Unless these weapons formed were made in such a way as to not prevail against us forever. They may have been made for a finite purpose. The serpent was allowed into the garden but I don't think 'he' was meant to last forever.
cp
ya something is buggy with this forum
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 04:11:52 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 02:31:08 PM
If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?
Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?
Unless these weapons formed were made in such a way as to not prevail against us forever. They may have been made for a finite purpose. The serpent was allowed into the garden but I don't think 'he' was meant to last forever.
cp
but than you are reading more into the scripture than it actually says.
For myself when reading the OT I beleive the septugent to be more accurate than the rest of the translation, Jesus used it, Peter and the boys used it, and if it was good enough for them, its good enough for me.
Pneuma, you wrote.......
7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?
Where did disobedience originate from? Who or what made us able to disobey. Who or what created the circumstances and influences (serpent in garden) that led to us disobeying?
I agree WE disobeyed, thus the hardening but I am curious..............
cp
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 04:15:29 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 04:11:52 PM
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 02:31:08 PM
If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?
Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?
Unless these weapons formed were made in such a way as to not prevail against us forever. They may have been made for a finite purpose. The serpent was allowed into the garden but I don't think 'he' was meant to last forever.
cp
but than you are reading more into the scripture than it actually says.
For myself when reading the OT I beleive the septugent to be more accurate than the rest of the translation, Jesus used it, Peter and the boys used it, and if it was good enough for them, its good enough for me.
I am only trying to read the spirit of what is being communicated.
cp
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 03:58:57 PM
Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.
Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.
Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
cp
What about this Pman?
So good to converse with you again Brother.
cp
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 04:16:18 PM
Pneuma, you wrote.......
7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?
Where did disobedience originate from? Who or what made us able to disobey. Who or what created the circumstances and influences (serpent in garden) that led to us disobeying?
I agree WE disobeyed, thus the hardening but I am curious..............
cp
well according to scripture sin is of the devil brother, so unless God and the devil are in concord with one another, which is contrary to scripture I don't see how people can say God planned out mans disobedience and sin.
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 04:20:37 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 03:58:57 PM
Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.
Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.
Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
cp
What about this Pman?
So good to converse with you again Brother.
cp
It seems circular to you brother because of the way you are seeing things right now, but God runs along the strait road not the twisted road. Jesus met Paul on straight street not twisted ave. :winkgrin:
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 04:20:37 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 03:58:57 PM
Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.
Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.
Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
cp
What about this Pman?
So good to converse with you again Brother.
cp
Clay read post 45 for more clarification, and it is good to see you again also.
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 04:30:44 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 04:16:18 PM
Pneuma, you wrote.......
7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?
Where did disobedience originate from? Who or what made us able to disobey. Who or what created the circumstances and influences (serpent in garden) that led to us disobeying?
I agree WE disobeyed, thus the hardening but I am curious..............
cp
well according to scripture sin is of the devil brother, so unless God and the devil are in concord with one another, which is contrary to scripture I don't see how people can say God planned out mans disobedience and sin.
Sin is of the devil (the carnal mindset IMO).
Anyway, back to square one then...........where did the devil originate from? Who or what created the conditions for 'him' to exist? Why was the 'serpent' allowed in to the 'garden'? Who allowed the serpent to exist?
The serpent indeed is a weapon formed against us, but for what end? If a good end then I can understand God behind this creation.
cp
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 04:34:05 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 04:20:37 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 03:58:57 PM
Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.
Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.
Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
cp
What about this Pman?
So good to converse with you again Brother.
cp
It seems circular to you brother because of the way you are seeing things right now, but God runs along the strait road not the twisted road. Jesus met Paul on straight street not twisted ave. :winkgrin:
I like the circular because I always end up back at God!!!!
I will read post 45, thanks.
What about my question..............
Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.
cp
read post 45 bro
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 09:21:18 PM
Quote from: Shadow on July 30, 2009, 04:02:08 PM
QuoteAlmost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Doesn't the first scripture I quoted, mean that He created satan and everything else?
Hi shadow I agree and have used those scriptures to show satans reconciliation.
But satan is just a title and not a proper name it means adversary.
So although God created all things, He created them good and by departing from His will they became evil.
Therefore God did not create satan(the adversary), satan created himself. Just as God never created man with sin, man disobeyed and became a sinner. Sinner is not a proper name but because of disobedience that is what man BECAME.
Whether a person or a condition, someone or something created it or the conditions for 'it' to exist. IMO satan is a state of being, a carnal mindset as it were so I think I'm with ya here Brother.
I really don't see that 'satan' created it or him self. Only God genuinely creates, all else is more or less a remanufacturing or sorts.
cp
Did God create the tares?
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 04:54:39 PM
Did God create the tares?
God created the conditions for the tares to exist and grow.
Did God build my shed? Yes and no. I built my shed but God created all the conditions so it could happen. I built my shed yet I step back and thank God for the abilities and materials for such a thing to occur.
cp
Quote from: jabcat on August 07, 2009, 10:12:35 AM
For Sister Sparrow;
Like a dreamer that was trying to build
A highway to the sky
All my hopes would come tumblin down
And I never knew just why
Until today when You pulled away the clouds
That hung like curtains on my eyes.
I was blind all these wasted years when
I thought I was so wise.
But then You took me by surprise.
Like waking up from the longest dream
How real it seemed
Until Your love broke through
And I was lost in a fantasy
That blinded me
Until your love broke through.
All my life I have been searching
For that crazy missing part
With one touch You just rolled away
The stone that held my heart,
Now I see that the answer was as simple
As my need to let love in
And I am so sure I could never doubt
Your gentle touch again
It's like the power of the wind.
Like waking up from the longest dream
How real it seemed
Until Your love broke through
And I was lost in a fantasy
That blinded me
Until your love broke through.
Written By Keith Green & Randy Stonehill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfLe59ekLzA
:HeartThrob:
That was beautiful.. :icon_flower:
Thank you for posting it, friend. :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:
Hope you are doing well brother! :friendstu:
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 02:31:17 PM
Yes God did that which He did not want to do,
Sorry Scott, this appears quite awry to me bro...
:omg: How can you say that GOD ...
DID... something
"He DID NOT want to do"? That is a statement of LACK of SELF CONTROL... For in essence, "we [as sinners] are strangled by the same rope!" -- as Paul noted in his experience:
Rom 8:15 (which [can't speak for you, but] I can relate to) This is (though I sure you do not intend it to be)
"HUMANIZING" God, bro...
GOD named
ALL (declared), ...from END to BEGINNING, where He noted:
Isaiah 46:10 GOD says within this Scripture:
"...I WILL ...DO... ALL my PLEASURE" ...which would seem to mean (as you see it) that His -- "
doing what He did NOT want to
DO" -- was in some way, PLEASURE to Him? :dontknow:
For He stated "I WILL
DO"... and
"DOING what He did not want to DO" falls into the category of "
DO", does it not? ... :mshock:
Not to mention that...
"Him DOING what He did not want to DO" still falls under the blanket of His own COUNSEL (advisement) in
Isaiah 46:10, ...under which ALL THINGS fall:
Eph 1:11 :dontknow:
The "manufacturer" is where the "ROOT" of innovation and responsibility lies. ALL that the product can and WILL do, are founded in the PLANNING and DESIGN of the "manufacturer", and NOTHING concerning the function and capability of the PRODUCT, can be disassociated from the "manufacturer"... Which is WHY "Salvation" was already "eternally" IN PLACE, before Creation commenced, for part of the course of creation would include both, DISOBEDIENCE and REDEMPTION from it.
To think that GOD "did" something
"He did not want to do", to me an "veiled" observation of Him.
Shall He join our chorus, by whining -- "the devil made Me do it"? :laughing7: (just "pulling" your leg bro!)
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 02:31:17 PMbut it all came about because of mans disobedience, not because God planned for man to be disobedient.
Sorry again dear brother, but I take exception to this statement, as well!
FIRST -- This is contrary to
Rom 9:18 which notes that HARDENING (disobedience) ...
and... MERCY (grace/forgiveness) are BOTH at the decision and descretion of GOD and HIS WILL, not man and his inability to obey.
SECOND -- GOD knew before a MAN even HAD, "CHOICE" -- that he would DISOBEY... yet He proceeded to create MAN anyway. As I see it, that He KNEW what man would
DO... and had created ALL OPTIONS (deciding the "obedient" and/or "disobedient" parameters of those "options"), ...He therefore CANNOT be disassociated with MAN "doing" what he ended up "doing" (disobeying). :mnah:
THIRD -- GOD decided to plant the "tree of the knowledge" in the Garden... as well as INFORMING the man of its LOCATION --
Gen 2:17 -- How can you say it was NOT part of the "plan"? ...not to mention that PRIOR (in the ETERNAL realm) to ANY of this,
CHRIST was "slain"... :dontknow: --
Rev 13:8FOURTH -- The ONLY WAY that Man could "attain" the knowledge, was BY EXPERIENCE. Why? Because THAT is the
WAY it
occured. GOD had this knowledge... but His SONS did NOT. And they BECAME as IS God, by gaining this knowledge, VIA their
[experiential] disobedience --
Gen 3:22To say that MAN "disobeyed" without the participation of GOD's involvement or INTENTION, is to me (no offense), disregarding almost EVERYTHING that the facts display. :sigh:
:Peace:
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
Hi Willie good to see you again also.
Your whole theology hangs on this scripture
QuoteGOD says within this Scripture: "...I WILL ...DO... ALL my PLEASURE" ...which would seem to mean (as you see it) that His -- "doing what He did NOT want to DO" -- was in some way, PLEASURE to Him?
Now show me where it says it is God pleasure that we sin?
Because you are saying God finds pleasure in SIN.
And if He does not find pleasure in SIN then it obviously is NOT a part of His ALL HIS PLEASURE.
So again show me a scripture that says God has PLEASURE IN SIN?
It the same with His WILL, show me a scripture that says God WILL us TO SIN.
Seems to me many here believe a lot of things the scriptures do not even come close to saying.
willieH: Hi PM... :happygrin:
Quote from: willieHWhat about the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL? Even though EVIL shall be absent from MANIFESTATION, does not mean that it NO LONGER IS available as a "KNOWLEDGE". And because it is present as a KNOWLEDGE means that it has "PRESENCE" in its OPPOSITENESS... Which remains to serve to MAGNIFY and DEFINE, good.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 07, 2009, 06:10:39 AMKnowing of something (evil) and doing it, is entirely two different things.
I don't (completely) disagree with this.
The KNOWLEDGE of EVIL is contained in the SAME TREE or SOURCE as the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD... When ONE is PRESENT, the other is as well.
In MAN gaining the "knowledge", it took him DOING SOMETHING... not just INFORMATION. KNOWING something is the APPLICATION of INFORMATION to EXPERIENCE... which is what is taking place in this realm, concerning GOOD and EVIL.
For instance, I can tell my child that SMOKING is not good for him and show him TONS of information to support what I "SAY"... However, oftentimes we find instruction of the abstaination of EVIL, cannot be KNOWN until it is EXPERIENCED... and/or WITNESSED. If GOD said that it was not GOOD to murder someone, and NO ONE was ever "murdered" -- How would you KNOW this to be TRUE?
If it all it took for us to KNOW "Good & Evil" would've been GOD "telling us"... then why did He put us through all this PM? :dontknow: I do not question His method... which has INFORMED us of EVIL as opposed to GOOD, via an ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with BOTH...
This is the ULTIMATE "REALITY show"!! :laughing7:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 07, 2009, 06:10:39 AMAnd according to you this directional thing has the tendency of ending up back where you started.
Either I was unclear, or you did not get my point. That EVIL is not DONE does not mean that it is not PRESENT... for in the KNOWLEDGE is contained the "presence" of ANY given thing.
For instance... How can I possibly be aware of EAST, unless WEST is present?
As I endeavored to convey... The knowledge of EVIL and GOOD are 2 sides of the SAME SWORD... the SWORD is only COMPLETE when BOTH sides are PRESENT. Manifestation does not determine presence. GOD has FOREVER known EVIL as well as GOOD... but in FOREVER, He has not MANIFESTED
part of what He KNOWS... :dontknow: He created TIME for that manifestation to take place.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMA change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life
Quote from: willieHThis observation STILL does not remove DEATH completely, for "DEATH" is part of the DEFINITION of what "life", ...IS! As I said, ...opposites are more DIRECTIONAL, than POSITIONAL.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 07, 2009, 06:10:39 AMA change in position from unrighteousness and death to the righteousness of life.
Again brother... We move DIRECTIONALLY concerning "righteousness and unrighteousness" and BOTH remain as we do. We never "arrive" we LIVE in the direction of RIGHTEOUSNESS and thereby are moving in the OPPOSITE direction of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... :dontknow:
QuoteNo matter HOW "righteous" you become PM... "Unrighteousness" remains right next to you... for you could abstain from stealing for an UNCOUNTABLE period, yet to take what is not yours, is there during the ENTIRETY of that PERIOD. It is therefore, NOT absent. It is only abstained from, by an active LIVING within RIGHTEOUSNESS...
GOD knew both GOOD and EVIL, and is an ETERNAL entity. Which means that even though He does not DO Evil, does not mean that it is ABSENT. It is just not practiced in HIS way of LIVING... and WE are to follow suit.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 07, 2009, 06:10:39 AMSelf-denial, as in merely abstinent?
As I look at it, it NOT is "self denial", rather... cooperation with what is RIGHT. Not "abstaining" but cooperating with RIGHTEOUSNESS as the WAY in which to LIVE...
I do not "abstain" from murder. I cooperate with the Creator to help sustain life... (I even capture bugs in the house and release them outside :mblush: :laughing7:)
Instead of looking at my act above as "not murdering", I look at it as RESPECTING all LIFE, in the same way I wish mine to be respected.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2009, 07:44:31 AMThus, would concur that a change of ones heart from evil is directional, but upon completion; it's a new position in the absence of the old.
Quote from: willieHNot really. :laughing7:
It is just CONTINUALLY traveling (living) in the OPPOSITE direction of evil... EVIL remains at ALL TIMES, as the DEFINITION of that DIRECTION (which you maintain as a "position")
Quote from: peacemaker on August 07, 2009, 06:10:39 AM"An infinite circulating means of exchange for philanthropy?"
A personal quote/question in response to the "Evil that remains at ALL TIMES."
His generous act to improve the human condition IS through CHRIST JESUS ...
... not EVIL.
I think when it comes down to it brother, we are saying much the same things... I do not believe everything is traveling in "CIRCULAR" directions... rather I believe they are traveling in "OPPOSITE" directions...
GOD said in His WORD --
Psalm 103:12 -- that He would remove our sin as "
far as East is from the West"... How "far" is that, bro? All one has to do is TURN West in order for the East to be present! What He was saying is that our SIN is removed and left here in this realm of TIME, ...and we shall be heading in the OPPOSITE
Direction of it -- FOREVER...
Without EVIL, there is no "KNOWLEDGE" of GOOD... for it is thereby ALONE without something to note what it ...
IS... :pitiful:
I was watching a show last spring called "the millionaires". And in it, it took MILLIONAIRES and placed them in POVERTY situations. In EVERY CASE the MILLIONAIRES were DEEPLY affected by the POVERTY, especially those who were BORN into their money. They had NO IDEA that people actually lived differently than themselves!
If you have ALWAYS had something to EAT, whenever you wanted... you have NO true COMPREHENSION of suffering STARVATON -- which is it's OPPOSITE scenario...
Comprehending STARVATION defines the RICHES found within having that
need to eat,
MET. It also serves to nurture the desire to help others which DO NOT have that need MET in their experience.
I worked and served for a time in a homeless shelter. Try it sometime, it is quite enlightening, and serves not only to prompt THANKSGIVING to God, in ones own experience, but also reveals the GREAT RICHES you have in just having simple needs met, ...needs that are NOT met in MANY, MANY others.
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:
continuing...
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 09:35:58 PM
Your whole theology hangs on this scripture
Quote from: willieHGOD says within this Scripture: "...I WILL ...DO... ALL my PLEASURE" ...which would seem to mean (as you see it) that His -- "doing what He did NOT want to DO" -- was in some way, PLEASURE to Him?
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 09:35:58 PMNow show me where it says it is God pleasure that we sin?
It is within HIS PLEASURE [desire] that SIN and DEATH occur in our experience, for He has thereby INVESTED knowledge IN US, that only HE HAD, ...which delivers BOTH into our scenario --
Gen 3:22 -- thereby it is PART of the CREATION and REVELATION process for SIN, Suffering and DEATH to be manifest...
GOOD and EVIL are part of the REVELATION of
JESUS CHRIST, who IS the
WORD. GOOD and EVIL are both manifest in the course of MAN's History, for the
WORD notes them, and GOD takes PLEASURE in ALL His
WORD notes... for it is ultimately GOOD and PERFECT.
CHRIST was made PERFECT [complete] THROUGH SUFFERINGS... Even though GOD must bear this Himself, it HIS intention to make PERFECT, and COMPLETE, ...ALL THINGS... which are ALL the THINGS to which He sets His hand to... the POTTER PERFECTLY shaping His Creation... which in PART must be found MARRED at His descretion --
Jer 18:4Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 09:35:58 PMBecause you are saying God finds pleasure in SIN.
I did NOT
say "
that" bro, YOU did...
I
said that ALL that occurs is DONE of HIS WILL and it is HIS PLEASURE to immerse us in the OPPOSITE of Himself (Hardening/concluding in UNBELIEF), and to REMOVE us FROM IT (Mercy/Grace/redemption)... BOTH of which are done at HIS HAND.
I am saying that through this process, GOD finds PLEASURE in the REVELATION of HIMSELF to us... part of which is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD
and EVIL... which entails this PROCESS, in order to be REVEALED... WHY? Because we are indeed within and LIVING IN, that process... :nod:
HE is WORKING ALL THINGS... That leaves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that HE is not ACTIVELY "WORKING"... :dontknow:
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 09:35:58 PMAnd if He does not find pleasure in SIN then it obviously is NOT a part of His ALL HIS PLEASURE.
That you or I do not see the WHOLE picture, does not mean it is not there... As I said, It is HIS PLEASURE to DO what HE DOES... Part of which includes HARDENING (done of His WILL), and CONCLUDING
ALL in UNBELIEF (whatsoever is not of FAITH is SIN)... As well as FINDING FAULT in the whole thing --
Rom 9:18-20HE sends us into captivity Scott --
Jer 29:14 -- And HE returns us from that captivity --- HE directs the steps bro --
Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 09:35:58 PMSo again show me a scripture that says God has PLEASURE IN SIN?
I have already done so... if you do not see it, ...you do not. There is no point in repeating what I have already noted.
HIS PLEASURE is found in the COMPLETED process, in which HE works ALL THINGS, and of which HE is a PART, in every instance for there is NO POWER other than His --
Rom 13:1 --
So ANY POWER that is exercised by MAN, find its source --
(1) In HIM --
(2) is thereby enlisted within HIS WORK
ING of ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11 -- which are ALL done according to HIS WILL -- :Sparkletooth:
Btw... YOU have not indicated comment on your proposal of GOD's "lack of SELF CONTROL" (DOING what He did NOT want to DO) :dontknow: And upon what SCRIPTURE does it
SAY:
"He DOES what He DOES NOT WANT to DO"? :thanks:
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 09:35:58 PMIt the same with His WILL, show me a scripture that says God WILL us TO SIN.
There are MANY, but for now ...I'll give you FOUR:
Rom 11:32 --
For GOD hath CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF, that He might have MERCY upon ALL Which notes that UNBELIEF has its SOURCE in HIM, and is therefore DETERMINED to BE, ...BY HIM.
Rom 14:23 --
whatsoever is NOT of FAITH, is SIN -- He has concluded us in UNBELIEF, so He thereby CONCLUDES us to SIN. We do not have the option to NOT SIN, for we are CONCLUDED to do so, BY Him.
Jer 10:23 --
O YHVH, I know that the WAY of MAN, is NOT in HIMSELF... NOT in MAN that walketh to DIRECT His steps -- In our "steps" and in our "way" we SIN... and this Scripture notes that these "steps" and "way" are NOT in us...
Rom 9:18-19 --
Therefore He hath MERCY upon whom HE WILL, and whom HE WILL, ...HE HARDENETH ...thou wilt say unto me why doth He yet find fault? For WHO hath resisted HIS WILL? -- This verse notes that FAULT is found BECAUSE of His WILL, on those who were
HARDENED by HIM, of
HIS WILL...
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 09:35:58 PMSeems to me many here believe a lot of things the scriptures do not even come close to saying.
"seems to me" is the key, Scott...
Have you considered that you have things yet to learn bro Scott? And within those
"things", ...there are INDEED, a LOT of
"things" you are yet to KNOW? Think about it. :JCThink:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Do good and evil, like heaven and hell, still indoctrinate the hearts of men?
The two edged sword of good and evil has varying implications, generally well-adapted for cutting; unmercifully:
"Thin cutting edges without a fine point?"
Whereas, His Word is an instrument that is sharper than any sword; quick and to the point, piercing deep within the heart of the matter.
"For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and SHARPER THAN ANY TWO-EDGED SWORD, piercing even to the DIVIDING asunder of SOUL and SPIRIT, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)
Let us be acute in spirit, sensitive to his engrafted word for we are not really learning; just remembering.
Creation is everything that's within, and true power is tempered with love.
peacemaker :HeartThrob:
No brother you have not given me any scripture that says it is Gods pleasure for us to sin.
All you have is given me your understanding of some scriptures that I see differently than you but what I see shows forth Gods nature. What you see shows forth God and satans nature mixed together.
Willie everything is NOT YET done according to God will.
It is NOT GODS WILL that any should PERISH, yet people PERISH all through scripture. Yet your belief makes people perishing God's will.
Sorry bro I believe the scriptures.
Willie, unlike you saying God works sin as part of His pleasure or will without scriptural backing that ACTUALLY states such I do have scripture that states God did not want to sacrifice His son.
Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Desire/PLEASURE—God has PLEASURE in mercy NOT SACRIFICE.
Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Desire/PLEASURE- God had NO PLEASURE in sacrifice and offerings.
I know I have a lot to learn brother, you keep telling me that I do every time we speak to one another, but did it ever occur to you that maybe just maybe it is you that is in need of learning.
Pneuma, you asked me if God created tares and I answered you (and I see you've been busy on another front) but if you got time, I am curious to what you think of my answer.........
God created the conditions for the tares to exist and grow.
Did God build my shed? Yes and no. I built my shed but God created all the conditions so it could happen. I built my shed yet I step back and thank God for the abilities and materials for such a thing to occur.
I also wonder, because I appreciate your thoughts much, I wonder what you think about my comment on circular reasonings. This seems to be thought a bad thing but if all started out with God what makes more sense than all will end up with God..........God all in all, the perfect circle?
cp
Hi Clay after a certain manner I can agree that God created the conditions that allowed satan to plant the tares, but I am not allowed to speak of that condition on tents, so you will have to read between the lines.
Well I guess it depends on the manner in which one uses circular reasoning. Everything comes out from God and everything ends back with God. I have no problem with that circular reasoning.
But here is a thought for you.
Does everything that came out from God return to God in the same fashion it came out from Him? And does everything stay in the same fashion it did when it came out from Him?
Quote from: pneuma on August 08, 2009, 04:49:18 PM
Hi Clay after a certain manner I can agree that God created the conditions that allowed satan to plant the tares, but I am not allowed to speak of that condition on tents, so you will have to read between the lines.
Well I guess it depends on the manner in which one uses circular reasoning. Everything comes out from God and everything ends back with God. I have no problem with that circular reasoning.
But here is a thought for you.
Does everything that came out from God return to God in the same fashion it came out from Him? And does everything stay in the same fashion it did when it came out from Him?
You say you may be able to agree that God created the conditions that allowed satan to plant the tares................................
I ask you if God created the conditions that allowed satan to even exist?
I hear ya on reading between the lines and I think even that avenue is created by God created conditions. A choice is manufactured out of already existing conditions and input.
I don't believe everything ends up back with God in the same fashion as it started out. It ends up much better in every way otherwise what is the purpose of it all?
I think everything becomes the fashion it was intended by God to become in and during its journey back to God.
cp
Quote from: claypot on August 08, 2009, 08:57:57 PM
I think everything becomes the fashion it was intended by God to become in and during its journey back to God.
cp
Amen, bro.
:hihat: Brother Willie
QuoteIf it all it took for us to KNOW "Good & Evil" would've been GOD "telling us"... then why did He put us through all this PM? :dontknow:
Choice?
QuoteI do not question His method... which has INFORMED us of EVIL as opposed to GOOD, via an ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with BOTH...
Of course not, no child questions his parent(s)?
Man made the decision to EXPERIENCE this realm, although they were given the KNOWLEDGE from the ONE who had the KNOWLEDGE in the beginning. Now, we live within it? However, He has PURPOSED by HIS GOOD PLEASURE (an intended or desired result) to bring us through it, never leaving or FORSAKING US!
QuoteFor instance, I can tell my child that SMOKING is not good for him and show him TONS of information to support what I "SAY"... However, oftentimes we find instruction of the abstaination of EVIL, cannot be KNOWN until it is EXPERIENCED... and/or WITNESSED. If GOD said that it was not GOOD to murder someone, and NO ONE was ever "murdered" -- How would you KNOW this to be TRUE?
You would not, if you doubted his word from the beginning. But would you cause your children to murder that of another, just for the EXPERIENCE? What a sadistic thought, so as a man thinks?
"The right, power or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, and we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."Thank God for His Attributes, as:
"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness."
Willie, you express many things which are true, but like everyone we at times FORGET the CHARACTERISTICS of OUR CREATOR.
QuoteI worked and served for a time in a homeless shelter. Try it sometime, it is quite enlightening, and serves not only to prompt THANKSGIVING to God, in ones own experience, but also reveals the GREAT RICHES you have in just having simple needs met, ...needs that are NOT met in MANY, MANY others.
Perhaps, we served along side one another, as my daughters and I served others for the meals we in return received while eating at a food kitchen for almost two years. There were those that would hand me a small and large food box saying,
"Which of these is to much, and which is not enough? How would you respond to this?
"Neither is enough, nor to much in and of themselves!"Both His Sovereignty and our choices, go hand in hand as He PROVIDES for our every need. My first date with my present wife was to invite her to dinner,
"it was free, yet provided for." Something to think about! :secret:
peacemaker
... food for thought, not in a box :cloud9:
Quote from: pneuma on July 29, 2009, 05:43:04 AMCreate is bara in the Hebrew and can mean shape but can also mean to cut down.
But apparently it can only mean "cut down" with the
Piel stem but all the "creates" in Isaiah 45:7 use the
Qal stem meaning "create, shape, form".
1) to create, shape, form
...a)
(Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
......1) of heaven and earth
......2) of individual man
......3) of new conditions and circumstances
......4) of transformations
...b) (Niphal) to be created
......1) of heaven and earth
......2) of birth
......3) of something new
......4) of miracles
...c)
(Piel)......1) to cut down
......2) to cut out
2) to be fat
...a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat
Also at the end of the Isaiah 45:7 there is a summation "I the LORD do
all these things". The word translated "do" is the same word translated "make" in "I make peace" in the same verse. It's primary meaning is given as "to do, fashion, accomplish, make" and is used for example in these verses from Genesis.
And God
made the firmament
And God
made two great lights...
And God
made the beast of the earth...
And God said, let us
make man in our image...
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had
made...
It is not good that the man should be alone; I will
make him an help meet for him...
My explanation of "love worketh no evil" is simply to look at examples in scriptures where God does indeed cause "bad stuff" to happen to people for some greater good. For example, God took away Neb.'s kingdom and gave him the mind of a beast for a long time. That would fall under the heading of evil from Neb's viewpoint but God was not working evil towards Neb because all was done out of love for his ultimate benefit. Same with Jonah. Getting tossed into the sea and being swallowed by a fish and on the brink of death (or dead) is again evil from Jonah's viewpoint but in the bigger picture God was working good towards both Jonah and Nineveh.
Sometimes I think examples in scripture are more compelling than doctrinal statements in scripture.
QuoteBut apparently it can only mean "cut down" with the Piel stem but all the "creates" in Isaiah 45:7 use the Qal stem meaning "create, shape, form".
Hi Bob, from what I looked up on the net it seems some scholars would agree with that because they cannot understand how "cut down" can create anything, but Bernhardt suggests that the Hebrew root bara' had an original meaning of "to separate, divide" (TDOT, II:245). This would account for definitions of "cut" as well as "create.
IMO Bernhardt is correct because when I look at the scriptures using bara I can see that God creates by cutting down/cutting out.
We know God creates by His word, His word is a double-edged sword cutting or dividing.
When God creates/bara in us a clean heart how does He do it?
Is it not by CUTTING away the foreskin.
When God created/bara the heavens and the earth how did He do it?
Was it not by cutting down the darkness by creating light.
Thus I stand by my translation I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
QuoteI think everything becomes the fashion it was intended by God to become.................
I agree with this part of your statement bro.
QuoteI ask you if God created the conditions that allowed satan to even exist?
Same answers clay, read between the lines.
Quote from: pneuma on August 09, 2009, 12:11:36 PM
QuoteBut apparently it can only mean "cut down" with the Piel stem but all the "creates" in Isaiah 45:7 use the Qal stem meaning "create, shape, form".
Hi Bob, from what I looked up on the net it seems some scholars would agree with that because they cannot understand how "cut down" can create anything, but Bernhardt suggests that the Hebrew root bara' had an original meaning of "to separate, divide" (TDOT, II:245). This would account for definitions of "cut" as well as "create.
IMO Bernhardt is correct because when I look at the scriptures using bara I can see that God creates by cutting down/cutting out.
We know God creates by His word, His word is a double-edged sword cutting or dividing.
When God creates/bara in us a clean heart how does He do it?
Is it not by CUTTING away the foreskin.
When God created/bara the heavens and the earth how did He do it?
Was it not by cutting down the darkness by creating light.
Thus I stand by my translation I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Ok Scott... I'm certainly no scholar of hebrew... just saw that in Strongs thought I should point it out. What do you make of God's judgments in relation to God creating evil. I don't mean moral evil, I mean God causing bad stuff to happen to people as a judgment. Verses like this one.
- Jeremiah 31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
Don't you think "pluck up, break down, destroy" involves God creating evil?
Quote from: pneuma on August 09, 2009, 12:11:36 PM
QuoteBut apparently it can only mean "cut down" with the Piel stem but all the "creates" in Isaiah 45:7 use the Qal stem meaning "create, shape, form".
Hi Bob, from what I looked up on the net it seems some scholars would agree with that because they cannot understand how "cut down" can create anything, but Bernhardt suggests that the Hebrew root bara' had an original meaning of "to separate, divide" (TDOT, II:245). This would account for definitions of "cut" as well as "create.
IMO Bernhardt is correct because when I look at the scriptures using bara I can see that God creates by cutting down/cutting out.
We know God creates by His word, His word is a double-edged sword cutting or dividing.
When God creates/bara in us a clean heart how does He do it?
Is it not by CUTTING away the foreskin.
When God created/bara the heavens and the earth how did He do it?
Was it not by cutting down the darkness by creating light.
Thus I stand by my translation I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.
:cloud9: Pneuma, when I read your post what came into my mind was that Gideon was a FELLER of trees, ie. to cut down.
Trees can spiritually mean, things that have been planted in us, allowed to take root, grown up to produce fruit, and also were around the idolatrous altars (they committed idolatry in the GROVES) which represent our hearts before turning to Him.
Once we turn to Him the other "mighty man of valor" (Gideon called this) begins to fell the "trees" in our heart that keep the Tree of Life from being seen in our midst.
But the other point with this I wanted to make, is that the rain falls on the just and the unjust and the rain that fell on all these trees, came from the same source. Just my thoughts...... Blessings....
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 04:34:05 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 04:20:37 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 03:58:57 PM
Romans 11.32...............God seems to put us all in the 'disobedient' category so He can be merciful to us all. Hard to be merciful to one who needs no mercy I suppose. His mercy endures forever while His wrath endures but a moment, relatively speaking.
Isn't a disobedient heart already a hardened heart? If so then whatever or whoever 'caused' or created the conditions for the disobedient heart is the hardener.
Back to square one, looks like. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
cp
What about this Pman?
So good to converse with you again Brother.
cp
It seems circular to you brother because of the way you are seeing things right now, but God runs along the strait road not the twisted road. Jesus met Paul on straight street not twisted ave. :winkgrin:
Something "
CIRCULAR" is NOT "TWISTED" in any way.
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: bobf on August 09, 2009, 03:25:27 PM
What do you make of God's judgments in relation to God creating evil. I don't mean moral evil, I mean God causing bad stuff to happen to people as a judgment. Verses like this one.
- Jeremiah 31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
Don't you think "pluck up, break down, destroy" involves God creating evil?
:thumbsup: Good point Bob. I hear you pointing out that if we want to try to relieve God of the responsibility that
He says He takes, at a basic level, "so in the
very least...what about the judgment aspect".... IMO, some verses just can't be "re-worked" and/or explained away.
Amos 3:6
NIV
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If a ram's horn sounds an alarm in a city, won't the people be alarmed? If there is a disaster in a city, hasn't the LORD done it?
King James Bible
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
American King James Version
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it?
American Standard Version
Shall the trumpet be blown in a city, and the people not be afraid? shall evil befall a city, and Jehovah hath not done it?
Bible in Basic English
If the horn is sounded in the town will the people not be full of fear? will evil come on a town if the Lord has not done it?
Douay-Rheims Bible
Shall the trumpet sound in a city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, which the Lord hath not done?
Darby Bible Translation
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and Jehovah not have done it?
English Revised Version
Shall the trumpet be blown in a city, and the people not be afraid? shalt evil befall a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Webster's Bible Translation
Shalt a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
World English Bible
Does the trumpet alarm sound in a city, without the people being afraid? Does evil happen to a city, and Yahweh hasn't done it?
Young's Literal Translation
Is a trumpet blown in a city, And do people not tremble? Is there affliction in a city, And Jehovah hath not done it?
willieH: Hi PM... :hithere:
Quote from: willieHFor instance, I can tell my child that SMOKING is not good for him and show him TONS of information to support what I "SAY"... However, oftentimes we find instruction of the abstaination of EVIL, cannot be KNOWN until it is EXPERIENCED... and/or WITNESSED. If GOD said that it was not GOOD to murder someone, and NO ONE was ever "murdered" -- How would you KNOW this to be TRUE?
Quote from: peacemaker on August 08, 2009, 11:45:31 PMYou would not, if you doubted his word from the beginning. But would you cause your children to murder that of another, just for the EXPERIENCE? What a sadistic thought, so as a man thinks?
"The right, power or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, and we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."
"Murder" was decided to be what it actually
IS, by GOD, who decided the existence of
ALL THINGS... Also, it occurs within HIS Creation, yet He does NOTHING to stop it from occuring. WHY? Because it is ORDAINED to be so as part of the process of the
REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, which is the
WORD of GOD, which notes MURDER took place within this realm (as part of the illustration of G & E).
It is WRITTEN (in the
WORD) that Cain murdered Abel. Could this have been otherwise? I think NOT! For if it could have been otherwise, it would have been otherwise! That this account appears in the
WORD means that this account comes from an UNCHANGING SOURCE... which not only PRECEEDED the choice... but had already taken it into account BEFORE it occured (
CHRIST was slain from the foundation of the world)
The "ill choice" of Cain, did not DICTATE to GOD what His
WORD would SAY... the OPPOSITE is true. The CLAY does not dictate to the POTTER, "I want to be a bowl, not a vase"... The POTTER decides what the CLAY shall be, through the ENTIRETY of its Creation --
Jer 18:4 -- which includes both the Positive and Negative aspects of that "creation".
CAIN made a choice which was made according to the
WORD which
"WORD" did NOT require "his choice" in order to
BE...
GOD's
WORD ...IS... the
SAME "
YESTERDAY"
[before Cain's choices were made] "
TODAY"
[during the life and "choices" of Cain] and "
FOREVER"
[the choices of Cain shall never disappear from being known, but always serve to MAGNIFY the Glory of his deliverance FROM them!]As
CHRIST said: Heaven and Earth shall
PASS AWAY, but MY
WORDS shall
NEVER PASS AWAY...
Within the
WORD of GOD is the complete History of each Human being that ever lived... Just because we do not have it WRITTEN on paper, and in our possession does not mean that they are not NOTED in the
WORD of GOD. The BOOKS of our LIVES were all KNOWN, DECLARED and therefore "prophesied" from "end to the beginning" --
Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- well before a moment took place.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 08, 2009, 11:45:31 PMThank God for His Attributes, as:
"There is no love without forgiveness, and no forgiveness without love; for what power has love, but forgiveness."
Willie, you express many things which are true, but like everyone we at times FORGET the CHARACTERISTICS of OUR CREATOR.
I try as best I can, not to "forget" the characteristics of our Creator brother... But I am able to note that HIS KNOWLEDGE of ALL THINGS is that which provides SOURCE for ALL THINGS... and ALL THINGS are WORKED by HIM, and for HIM... :dontknow:
The sorrows in the Revelation of the OPPOSITE of His Character, are that which we are experiencing in this realm of TIME... and are beneficial in ENLARGING the JOY of the experience of His Character, which JOY shall last FOREVER...
As a man, ...I have parented 3 children and am involved in the upbringing of 10 grandchildren. ALL 13 have had to learn many things which I, which proceeded them, KNEW and taught or warned them of... some of those things they responded to obediently and benefited by that obedience... but some they did not HEAR, and suffered accordingly... yet even then, gained from those varying negative experiences, and in their process -- are shunning those unacceptable or unprofitable behaviors, enhancing their prosperity in various given areas.
Quote from: willieHI worked and served for a time in a homeless shelter. Try it sometime, it is quite enlightening, and serves not only to prompt THANKSGIVING to God, in ones own experience, but also reveals the GREAT RICHES you have in just having simple needs met, ...needs that are NOT met in MANY, MANY others.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 08, 2009, 11:45:31 PMPerhaps, we served along side one another, as my daughters and I served others for the meals we in return received while eating at a food kitchen for almost two years. There were those that would hand me a small and large food box saying, "Which of these is to much, and which is not enough? How would you respond to this?
"Neither is enough, nor to much in and of themselves!"
I salute your service brother! :dsunny: I had the priviledge of serving with my wife, son and daughter in this endeavor...
:JCThink: I'm not sure I totally understand what you are asking, but I would say that a child or small person would certainly not require what a 6 foot 5", 250 pound man would require. :dontknow:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 08, 2009, 11:45:31 PMBoth His Sovereignty and our choices, go hand in hand as He PROVIDES for our every need. My first date with my present wife was to invite her to dinner, "it was free, yet provided for." Something to think about! :secret:
Within HIS SOVEREIGNTY are found "our choices" bro... We are here to learn that it is NOT about us... it is about
HIM... (all things are by Him, and ...
FOR HIM)
When we discover this, then we can truly observe ourselves as emergent
completely from HIM... and ALL that occurs in our individual experience is BENEFICIAL to ALL, because IT ALL emerges from Him... including the sum of our (individual) "choices"...
Quote from: peacemaker on August 08, 2009, 11:45:31 PM... food for thought, not in a box :cloud9:
back-atcha bro:
... food for thought, not in a box :cloud9:
...willieH :laughing7:
willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:
Upon what verse of Scripture do you base the idea that
"GOD -- DID -- what He DID NOT WANT TO DO? ...as stated here:
Quote from: pneuma on August 06, 2009, 02:31:17 PM
Yes God did that which He did not want to do,
Sorry Scott, this appears quite awry to me bro...
:omg: How can you say that GOD ...
DID... something
"He DID NOT want to do"? That is a statement of LACK of SELF CONTROL... For in essence, "we [as sinners] are strangled by the same rope!" -- as the Apostle Paul noted in his experience:
Rom 8:15 (which --
I can't speak for you, but -- I can relate to! This is (though I sure you do not intend it to be)
"HUMANIZING" God, bro...
...willieH :Sparkletooth:
willieH: Hi Scott... :happy3:
I could've sworn I answered this post! :JCThink: -- Oh well, so goes a 64 year old mind! :pitiful: :pointlaugh:
Quote from: pneuma on August 08, 2009, 03:32:58 PMNo brother you have not given me any scripture that says it is Gods pleasure for us to sin.
All you have is given me your understanding of some scriptures that I see differently than you but what I see shows forth Gods nature. What you see shows forth God and satans nature mixed together.
ALL THINGS emerge from Him Scott... whether we choose to believe it or not...
Col 1:16-20 -- All "natures" you or I can percieve, are emergent from HIM. "satan" however you view this term (I believe it to be a principality of adversity which is in the Carnal/Natural man)... is STILL emergent from His hand.
Quote from: pneuma on August 08, 2009, 03:32:58 PMWillie everything is NOT YET done according to God will.
This is a TIME confined, linear statement, bro. God is NOT confined by TIME, and IN HIM all things are COMPLETE.
Quote from: pneuma on August 08, 2009, 03:32:58 PMIt is NOT GODS WILL that any should PERISH, yet people PERISH all through scripture. Yet your belief makes people perishing God's will.
Sorry bro I believe the scriptures.
Scott, the Scriptures
SAY:
"...it is APPOINTED unto man once to DIE, but after this, the judgment" --
Heb 9:27Who "APPOINTED" this "DEATH" Scott? Does this "appointment" proceed from OUTSIDE the WILL of God? If so, WHO established this "appointment"? And how did they GET AWAY with making this "appointment" against His WILL? And then "snuck" it into His
WORD?
GOD's "WILL" about
"not perishing" is about
ETERNITY which is a resultant of REPENTENCE, not about this realm, ...in which DEATH is
APPOINTED as the result of TRANSGRESSION.
Quote from: pneuma on August 08, 2009, 03:32:58 PMWillie, unlike you saying God works sin as part of His pleasure or will without scriptural backing that ACTUALLY states such I do have scripture that states God did not want to sacrifice His son.
Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Desire/PLEASURE—God has PLEASURE in mercy NOT SACRIFICE.
Scott, I do not say that GOD takes PLEASURE in SIN, I say He takes PLEASURE in the COMPLETION of the process, which INCLUDES SIN... and redemption from it.
GOD is
ALMIGHTY bro... so the "sacrifice" of
CHRIST, could have been avoided if HE so chose to avoid it. He DID NOT!
Matter of fact... it was ALREADY a "DONE DEAL" before ANYTHING in Creation was even "Created" --
Rev 13:8Not only THAT, but when
CHRIST was amidst this realm, and
ON the
pathway to that
SACRIFICE... when GOD said:
"Thou art My beloved SON, in whom I am WELL PLEASED" --
Luke 3:22 -- Matt 17:5 :dontknow:
Seems to me, the words (
WELL) PLEASED is a variation of the word PLEASURE and vice versa...
GOD is herein displaying and vocalizing
PLEASURE in His SON who is on the pathway of
SACRIFICE... :dontknow:
Quote from: pneuma on August 08, 2009, 03:32:58 PMPsalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Desire/PLEASURE- God had NO PLEASURE in sacrifice and offerings.
First you tell me that
"GOD DID what He DID NOT ...WANT to DO" ...now THIS!
Scott, this is very surface... If GOD had no pleasure in Sacrifice and offerings, they would not be REQUIRED of men... It would be GOD bringing upon Himself, "DISPLEASURE" by requiring man to OFFER and SACRIFICE!
Do you deny that OFFERING and SACRIFICE is GOD instructed and required in His
WORD?
Therefore, it is possible that your observation of
Psalm 40:6 could be slightly inaccurate?
Since you think OFFERING and SACRIFICE is so DISPLEASING and/or UNPLEASUREABLE to GOD...
Was
CHRIST's sacrifice, therefore according to
Psalm 40:6 -- "DISPLEASING" to GOD, Scott? :mshock:
I think you have isolated your thoughts, and picked a verse which supports them, and are thereby blinded to the overall PREMISE of
Sacrifice and offering...
In the NT -- the Apostle Paul notes:
Rom 12:1 --
I ...BESEECH... you therefor brethren by the mercies of GOD, that ye present your bodies a -- LIVING SACRIFICE -- HOLY -- ACCEPTABLE -- unto GOD, which is your REASONABLE Service!It is our REASONABLE SERVICE to cause God DISPLEASURE by this "living"
SACRIFICE? :mshock:
According to your thinking brother Scott... this "LIVING
SACRIFICE" is DISPLEASING to GOD, even though HE orders it to be so, and WITHIN that "ordering" calls it
HOLY and ACCEPTABLE!
No my dear bro... (IMO) you have gathered an "understanding" of SACRIFICE and OFFERING, which you esteem to be a bit greater than it really is...
Quote from: pneuma on August 08, 2009, 03:32:58 PMI know I have a lot to learn brother, you keep telling me that I do every time we speak to one another, but did it ever occur to you that maybe just maybe it is you that is in need of learning.
Scott, I am and ALWAYS will be, in need of learning! :cloud9: If I were not, I would be stagnant. I presume you are the same bro... I don't mean to belittle you in any way, just suggest that there is always room for improvement of our insights.
Matter of fact when it gets down to the "nitty gritty", ...since I found the truth of the SALVATION of ALL MEN (which is one REAL big "learning") 9 years ago, ...I have since learned and have come to observe differently,
MANY new things (to mention just a few -- some of which YOU as well as many others here @ Tentmaker by GOD's hand, have contributed to) such as concerning the truth or fallacy of:
1. "HELL"
2. "Fallen angels"
3. The SABBATH
4. Free will
5. The "Millennium"
6. "Spiritual" Israel
7. Eternal "separation" from God
8. "Decision" for
CHRIST9. "Accepting"
CHRIST10. "Going" to Heaven
11. The FALLACY of "satan"
12. The FALLACY of Easter
13. Revelation of
JESUS CHRIST14. The ETERNAL state of the
WORD15. TIME as an opposition to ETERNITY
16. The FOREKNOWLEDGE of God
17. The FALLACY of the use of the word ETERNAL (in attachment to FINITES)
I have indeed LEARNED and continue to do so. And really, I am thankful for our discussions, and find respect for you as well.
I think we both seem to convey an unmoveable position bro... But, then again... that is my perception, which is based only upon our interactions.
You could well be "in flux" in the areas of learning, which I cannot observe. It is not my job to deduce you, only to present my beliefs, which are in process... and word them as best I can... without any desire that my observations change you... only to hope that should they in fact contain truth, that GOD may use them in helping others, and maintaining faith in those observations as I continue to search...
By the way, one more "reminder"... are you going to provide me the Scripture which SUPPORTS your statement:
"GOD DID what He DID NOT want to DO"? :dontknow: :thanks:
...willieH :Peace:
I came across an Old Testament example that perfectly illustrates the fact that people have choices, but that man has a choice is not evidence in itself to suggest that God's invisible hand is not still the foundation of those choices.
Observe:
1 Kings 12:1-19
Rehoboam went to Shechem, for all the Israelites had gone there to make him king. When Jeroboam son of Nebat heard this (he was still in Egypt, where he had fled from King Solomon), he returned from Egypt. So they sent for Jeroboam, and he and the whole assembly of Israel went to Rehoboam and said to him: "Your father put a heavy yoke on us, but now lighten the harsh labor and the heavy yoke he put on us, and we will serve you."
Rehoboam answered, "Go away for three days and then come back to me." So the people went away.
Then King Rehoboam consulted the elders who had served his father Solomon during his lifetime. "How would you advise me to answer these people?" he asked. They replied, "If today you will be a servant to these people and serve them and give them a favorable answer, they will always be your servants."
But Rehoboam rejected the advice the elders gave him and consulted the young men who had grown up with him and were serving him. He asked them, "What is your advice? How should we answer these people who say to me, 'Lighten the yoke your father put on us'?"
The young men who had grown up with him replied, "Tell these people who have said to you, 'Your father put a heavy yoke on us, but make our yoke lighter'-tell them, 'My little finger is thicker than my father's waist. My father laid on you a heavy yoke; I will make it even heavier. My father scourged you with whips; I will scourge you with scorpions.' "
Three days later Jeroboam and all the people returned to Rehoboam, as the king had said, "Come back to me in three days." The king answered the people harshly. (Here Rehoboam makes his choice): Rejecting the advice given him by the elders, he followed the advice of the young men and said, "My father made your yoke heavy; I will make it even heavier. My father scourged you with whips; I will scourge you with scorpions." So the king did not listen to the people, for this turn of events was from the LORD, TO FULFIL the word the LORD had spoken to Jeroboam son of Nebat through Ahijah the Shilonite.
When all Israel saw that the king refused to listen to them, they answered the king:
"What share do we have in David,
what part in Jesse's son?
To your tents, O Israel!
Look after your own house, O David!"
So the Israelites went home. But as for the Israelites who were living in the towns of Judah, Rehoboam still ruled over them.
King Rehoboam sent out Adoniram, who was in charge of forced labor, but all Israel stoned him to death. King Rehoboam, however, managed to get into his chariot and escape to Jerusalem. So Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day.
-------
VEDDY VEDDY INTERESTING.
Rehoboam's choice: follow the elders or follow the younger men. He chose the advice of the younger men. He THOUGHT that would work, because he wanted to be king. However, the invisible hand of God was working because God had already declared to Jereboam some chapters back, that Rehoboam would NOT be the king. It just so happens that the operator of that fulfillment would come about through a very unwise choice by the very man God said would not be king.
It just shows me that the existence of choice is not proper evidence to show that the invisible hand of God is not working in the choices, and it shows that nobody can tell when that invisible hand is working in their own choices either. JMHO
:cloud9: Amen Seth.....indeed no one can tell when the invisible hand of God is working, unless He reveals His hand to you. Blessings.....
Exactly Cardinal. Hey that's another agreement! :Party:
I thought it would be helpful to post the prophecy from which Rehoboam's influenced choice sprang:
1 Kings 11:9-13
The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the LORD's command. So the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates. Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime. I will tear it out of the hand of your son. Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but will give him one tribe for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen."
I think it is amazing with a Divine sense of irony that it was through that son's choices that the kingdom would be taken away BY God.
Quote from: willieH on August 07, 2009, 11:34:23 PM
I said that ALL that occurs is DONE of HIS WILL and it is HIS PLEASURE to immerse us in the OPPOSITE of Himself (Hardening/concluding in UNBELIEF), and to REMOVE us FROM IT (Mercy/Grace/redemption)... BOTH of which are done at HIS HAND.
Really good posts willie, but your sentence above is mindblowing! :thumbsup: At first we are immersed in evil, and slowly God is revealed to us (piece by piece) until there is no evil left and we are only immersed in God!
:cloud9: Amen Willie, good posts and I agree that is one loaded with life statement above........Blessings.....
Quote from: Seth on August 10, 2009, 06:44:14 PM
Exactly Cardinal. Hey that's another agreement! :Party:
:cloud9: Amen Seth.......that's cause we're related by blood....... :happygrin:
Amen! Seth,Cardinal,Willie....very good posts!
He kills[the man of sin/vessel of dishonour]
and makes alive [the vessel of honour/mercy]
In each of us as He see's fit for His own purpose.
Sheila
Quote from: claypot on August 07, 2009, 04:06:06 PM
Hey Pneuma, I have the exact same problem when typing out replies here. After a few sentences the jump all over the place. What I do is hit quote and when the text appears in this post reply box I copy all of it and paste it in Word and then write out my message and then copy it all from Word back to this reply box and then it all comes out right.
I thought it was my computer but if it is happening to you too then........???
cp
I just saw this cp... I had the same trouble, and I think it has to do with an "Internet Explorer" update.
If you have updated to "
Internet Explorer 8"... THAT, I think is the problem...
My wife "UNDID" the "install" on it, and things went back to normal... so I think there is a glitch in this "updated version of Internet Explorer" Hope that helps!
...willieH :cloud9:
Hi Willie, I have been over all your point already with others in this thread and the potter and his clay thread.
And I cannot defend what I believe because of the taboo placed upon this board, while you and everyone else can post away about God sovereignty at will. The cards are all stacked against me here brother in this regard.
Thus, it would be foolish of me to continue to debate something when I can only use PART of the scriptures and not all of them. It would be like fighting with one arm tied behind my back.
It like this brother say I had a board and I said to you, you cannot talk about God sovereignty because it upsets me and others on the board.
How would you explain God sovereignty if you cannot talk about His sovereignty, do you think it would be a fair debate?
Now don't go reading into my sovereignty example as though I don't believe in Gods sovereignty because I do, I just understand if differently than most do.
Therefore, I will bow out of any further discussions here at tents as there is not the liberty that at one time this board had.
2 Corinthians 3:17
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Now I am not saying no one here has the Spirit of the Lord (please don't read that into my statement) I am just saying I don't have the liberty to post what the Spirit of the Lord gives me.
God bless each and every one of you.
willieH: Hi PM... :cloud9:
Quote from: peacemaker on August 08, 2009, 07:34:52 AM
Do good and evil, like heaven and hell, still indoctrinate the hearts of men?
The two edged sword of good and evil has varying implications, generally well-adapted for cutting; unmercifully:
"Thin cutting edges without a fine point?"
Whereas, His Word is an instrument that is sharper than any sword; quick and to the point, piercing deep within the heart of the matter.
"For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and SHARPER THAN ANY TWO-EDGED SWORD, piercing even to the DIVIDING asunder of SOUL and SPIRIT, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)
Let us be acute in spirit, sensitive to his engrafted word for we are not really learning; just remembering.
Creation is everything that's within, and true power is tempered with love.
peacemaker :HeartThrob:
:goodpost: -- I especially liked the "remembering" comment, and completely AGREE with it! :thumbsup:
...willieH :bgdance:
willieH: Hi brother Scott... :cloud9:
Quote from: pneuma on August 10, 2009, 09:23:51 PM
Hi Willie, I have been over all your point already with others in this thread and the potter and his clay thread.
What "point" Scott? :dunno:
Be specific... :nod:
That you have stated something elsewhere is basically irrelevant bro... answer me, or don't... :dontknow: But don't make excuses... :dontknow:
Quote from: pneuma on August 10, 2009, 09:23:51 PMAnd I cannot defend what I believe because of the taboo placed upon this board, while you and everyone else can post away about God sovereignty at will. The cards are all stacked against me here brother in this regard.
I have NOT mentioned "sovereignty" at all in my discussion with you... I am able to note my beliefs without arguing or using the term "sovereignty", ...simply because (I believe) they are TRUTHFUL without use of this word... If your beliefs cannot be substanciated without the useage of the words "free will"...then they are exposed for what they are BY the Scriptures... You are welcome to use ANY SCRIPTURE you choose to prove your positions...
I AM curious though... :JCThink:
Where does it say:
"GOD DID, what He DID NOT ...want... to DO", Scott? Why are you avoiding the substanciating of this statement made by YOU, bro?
Quote from: pneuma on August 10, 2009, 09:23:51 PMThus, it would be foolish of me to continue to debate something when I can only use PART of the scriptures and not all of them. It would be like fighting with one arm tied behind my back.
Please brother! :rolleye:
I am sure GARY
and the MOD STAFF here WILL NOT prevent you from using ANY and ALL SCRIPTURE that you wish to use to substanciate yourself... It is arguing the terminologies of "sovereignty" and its opposing "free will" that are to be avoided...
To preach and quote the SCRIPTURES is NOT being inhibited here at all... :dontknow:
Quote from: pneuma on August 10, 2009, 09:23:51 PMIt like this brother say I had a board and I said to you, you cannot talk about God sovereignty because it upsets me and others on the board.
How would you explain God sovereignty if you cannot talk about His sovereignty, do you think it would be a fair debate?
I would use the SCRIPTURES to prove my viewpoint. A given term in ENGLISH is not where SPIRITUALITY lies, nor are these terms ("sovereignty/free will') required in order to convey the TRUTH. If you have TRUTH, you shall be able to CONVEY it to another, without using terms which are
ABSENT from the SCRIPTURES, such as the terms -- "free will" or "sovereignty".
Quote from: pneuma on August 10, 2009, 09:23:51 PMNow don't go reading into my sovereignty example as though I don't believe in Gods sovereignty because I do, I just understand if differently than most do.
I certainly will not attach anything to you. You are welcome to believe as you do. It is NOT my agenda to change you in any way. Just to convey via discussion, my current observations... which are seeking correction, if they are in need of it.
Said discussions have helped me along my pathway, ever since becoming a member here. And as I said in my previous post to you... YOU have helped me on occasion, and have especially stimulated me to a deeper "digging" in the field of the
WORD on those occasions!
Quote from: pneuma on August 10, 2009, 09:23:51 PMTherefore, I will bow out of any further discussions here at tents as there is not the liberty that at one time this board had.
That is your right dear brother. That said however, ...I think your observation of this forum is quite closed-minded.
Of all the forums I visit and/or have visited, ...this one has the wisest membership, and time spent here has been by FAR the most profitable to me. Along with that, I have been banned here, and IN that BAN, was stripped of MOD status... however, those are meant to be, for GOD is working ALL THINGS...
So it is HIS decision that those things occured... and if I am truly seeking Him, I shall focus in on the POSITIVES that Tentmaker stands for, instead of the NEGATIVES that might personally "ruffle my feathers"... You have the right to address this in your own way bro, and I do not demean you for it, and wish you WELL in your further pursuit of GOD and His
WORD! :friendstu:
Quote from: pneuma on August 10, 2009, 09:23:51 PM2 Corinthians 3:17
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Now I am not saying no one here has the Spirit of the Lord (please don't read that into my statement) I am just saying I don't have the liberty to post what the Spirit of the Lord gives me.
God bless each and every one of you.
You and your wisdoms will be sorely missed bro... Please keep in mind, that in our individual search for PERFECTION and COMPATIBILITY, that WE bring and possess our own PORTION of IMPERFECTION and INCOMPATIBILITY which we donate, toward any given one, ...and into whatever scenario we enter into and become a part...
So to seek a place that is COMPLETELY alligned with US and our "ideas" of LIBERTY and SPIRITUALITY, ...is probably not gonna happen, and we must therefore guard against becoming a "PHARISEE" (not calling you that), and seek to be as was the "PUBLICAN" (not calling you that either) --
Luke 18:10-14 -- for in these TWO we see HUMILITY in one, and PIOUSNESS in the other.
We all love you brother Scott -- :grouppray:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: pneuma on August 07, 2009, 02:24:11 PM
Hi Doc. As I cannot quote things the way I use to (the board jumps all over the place, can't even see what I am typing, and if I try to quote individual statements it really goes haywire) I will try to answer your questions the best I can, but if I miss answering one let me know ok.
Actually, it did answer your question Doc, perishing is the same perishing used in God not does not will that any should perish.
I was actually referring to the other points, not the question of what was meant by perishing...
Quote
So if it is not His will that any perish, yet people perish throughout scripture obviously they are perishing against His will.
I know people talk about God permissive or stated will and Gods ultimate will, but Gods will is God will. Permissive will is mans invention to understand how people can go against God will.
Except that what I'm talking about isn't really the same thing. God says that he wills or desires certain things (thelo), but that isn't always the way they go in the short term. However, God does get his way (will) in the end (boulemai). This is his ultimate intention. Often there is an already/ not yet tension in the scripture that contrasts the way things "are" vs. the way they "will be". God will accomplish all his will and desire however, so those perishing are still doing so according to his
boulemai in spite of the appearance of going against his
thelo for the short term.
"Permissive will" is a term used by people who cannot reconcile what they see in the world with a loving God. That's not what I'm talking about
Quote
No mans choices cannot trump God's ultimate plan.
But Gods ultimate plan is to make us in His image and likeness.
In the garden man had the right to the tree of life but because of mans choice he lost that right. So if God planned man to be disobedient from the get go why was the tree of life in the garden?
Gods ultimate plan was and is through the tree of life, NOT through disobedience and death. Mans ways=death, Gods ways=Life the two ways are contradictory to each other, yet many seem to believe Gods ways include man's ways, go figure.
I could turn this around and state it in the reverse; If God did not plan for the disobedience of man, then why was the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? You're right, God's ultimate plan was and is through the tree of life, but man had to take the disobedience and death detour.
Quote
There are two ways to Gods ultimate plan of making man in His image and likeness, the strait gate and the broad way that leadeth to destruction, and it depends on mans choices which way man goes. God predestines man to LIFE and man will ultimately find that LIFE, God does not predestine man to sin and disobedience.
If there are two ways for God to accomplish his ultimate will, which is the "right" way? He makes some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. We have no trouble saying that God predestines the ones made for honor, why do we have trouble saying this for the vessels made for dishonor? Particularly when God has admitted responsibility for this?
Quote
God does not withhold mans choices, they are always open to man, but He will limit mans choices once man is disobedient. Adam could freely eat from the tree of life, but after his disobedience, he could not access that tree again until he went through fire and sword.
I don't believe I said God does not allow choices. I'm saying that these choices do not represent freewill on our part.
Quote
The strait gate and the broad way was before him, he chose the broad way through fire and sword, but he could have chose LIFE from the get go.
Perhaps, but this is speculation. Because of what actually happened, we don't know that it could have happened another way.
Quote
No none of this affects God's sovereignty, because Gods sovereignty is NOT of this world. Like I have said before sovereignty denotes kingship, and we don't find that kingship on this earth until the kingdom age when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ, it is only then that He will reign (be sovereign) on earth just like He is in Heaven.
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven
Note that the prayer not only says thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, but that the prayer is also for His KINGDOM to come. It is NOT a redundant prayer, therefore His kingdom has NOT come, and His will is not being done YET on this earth.
But God's sovereignty is over this world, even if not of it. Before Christ was crucified, he said; "
now is the judgment of this world,
now shall the prince of this world be cast out."
Quote
Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and that mercy extends to all. As to God hardening whom He will is according to mans disobedience, all through scripture we see this happening, the people disobey and God than hardens their hearts. But God does not harden people's hearts in the way most seem to understand it, God speaks the truth and it is the truth that He speaks that harden men's hearts. Example: we all know that the truth is that God will save all men, yet when we speak this truth we can see how this truth hardens people's hearts towards us and the truth.
God hardened pharaoh's heart not to let the Israelites go when he wanted to, forcing him to hang on a little longer than he would have otherwise. To harden means to strengthen, so in a sense you could say that God is already working with what's there. However, this is still a clear case of God's will overriding man's, even if man shares in the hardening. Then there is Jonah and the Apostle Paul....
Quote
Yes God works all things according to the counsel of his will, but can you find in scripture that God's will is for sin and disobedience?
Sin and disobedience are NOT according to the counsel of God's will.
I'm sorry, I didn't catch which part of
all things there was not being worked according to the counsel of his will...
Quote
What people think that scripture is referring to is that because God works according to His will, it must mean that He then willed for man's disobedience and sin, but we know that disobedience and sin is NOT according to His will.
People perishing are NOT according to His will, yet many seem to think it is according to His will.
We're back to thelo and boulemai again. God
works all. A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
Quote
I am not going to dwell on this point but you said freewill is not even recorded in scripture, and many seem to believe that without actually looking at the scriptures to if that is true, or they try to look it up by looking for free will, but it is not two words it is one word, freewill and it is used in scripture 26 times in the OT.
I'll just give you two, you can look up the rest if you want to.
Leviticus 23:38
38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
Ezekiel 46:12
12 Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate.
So you can see freewill is in scripture and it must then be taken into account to make the scriptures mesh with each other. For it should go without saying if we leave out scripture we can make the bible say anything we want it to.
God bless
The word there (in both passages) translated 'freewill' is
n'dabah and is translated in some places as 'voluntary'. But it really means spontaneous. This does not support the concept of freewill as we hold it today. We make spontaneous choices that are still caused/ influenced by something or someone.
Article by Gary Amirault
"Recently, a local pastor gave a sermon that declared God absolutely sovereign over everything except man's will... Few who embrace Arminianism realize that by doing so, they have actually made themselves the absolute Sovereign, therefore making themselves god."
The rest here - http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-SovereigntyScriptures.html
Another good one here... http://spiritword.home.att.net/Adams/spirit_5.htm
Paul
Ooh, I like this line from that article Paul;
Let us by all means fit our theology to the Bible; and not try, as many do, to conform the Bible to our theology.
Good articles!
One minor problem I perhaps have with the one at the link Paul posted. The author claims that God judges only on the basis of intention, not action, but I think the parable of the sheep and goats makes it clear that he also judges based on our actions.
From Harold Lovelace's website, by Gary Marks;
We shall see that God uses the forces of evil to bring about good. Indeed, the greatest good of the universe comes from God's use of evil to accomplish His purpose.
...evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealing with evil and sin. But let me offer you the following facts for your consideration: God has control over Satan and all evil. Notice what God said to the serpent in Genesis 3:15: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise [literally, crush] thy head." Now this will take place in accord with God's purpose, for Paul writes in Romans 16:20, "Now the God of peace will be crushing Satan under your feet swiftly." Why does God wait to crush the head of the serpent? Why does He not crush him on the spot? No, there is still a need for the work of the serpent in God's plan and purpose. God has control over the movement of the serpent. He can only go as, and where, God permits. He is anything but free in his activities and he cannot defy the God Who made him. Read the first two chapters of Job and see how God restrained Satan in his dealings with this patriarch. He could go just so far and no further. And what did Satan's evil upon Job produce? Why, it just proved God's word to be true. God had said that Job was righteous, and all the evil that Satan wrought but heralded the fact that God is true and that His word is immutable.
Satan is not a problem to God, and He has no difficulty in disposing of the cunning serpent. How can I believe that Satan deceived Eve contrary to the will of God, when God unlocks him so that he can deceive the nations? If Eve's deception was contrary to God's purpose, why did not God lock up the serpent prior to his entrance into the garden? And why must Satan be loosed again at the close of the thousand years? Does not this tell us that God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities?
The key that unlocks the door to our understanding of the purpose of evil lies in two secrets made known by the apostle Paul....1 Corinthians 2:6-8: "Yet wisdom are we speaking among the mature, yet a wisdom not of this eon, neither of the chief men of this eon, who are being discarded, but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates beforehand, before the eons, for our glory, which not one of the chief men of this eon knows, for if they know, they would not crucify the Lord of glory." These...secrets deal with the exit or the repudiation of sin.
It should not be difficult for us to see that all that took place concerning the death of Christ was a part of God's plan and purpose. But it was concealed from those who were the actors. The word translated "designates beforehand" in 1 Corinthians 2:6,7, is the same Greek word with the prefix "before." The cross of Christ was designated beforehand, before when? Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all should be delivered from death and sin, for He designated these things for our glory. So we read in Acts 4:27,28, "For of a truth, in this city were gathered against Thy holy Boy Jesus, Whom Thou dost anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, together with the nations and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel designates beforehand to occur."
Yes, God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom. The concealing of the secret was only for the fulfilling of His purpose. It is in Paul's writings that God's secrets are made known. True, Jesus made known the secrets of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13). And even in that secret, evil forms a major part, such as Israel's blindness. But the secrets that reveal the complement of God's purpose are found only in Paul's writings. Yet almost all teaching today is void of all the secrets Paul made known. Not only are they ignored, that would be cause enough for concern, but they are usually denied. Failure to see that Paul had a special ministry, and the practice of trying to make his ministry fit that which is written concerning Israel and the earthly kingdom, blinds many eyes to God's purpose of evil. To some, evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. The only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus.
Samson's marriage
Judges 14
'I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah;now get her for me
as a wife' His father and mother replied,'Isn't there an
acceptable woman among your relatives or among our people?
Must you go to the uncircumcized Philistines to get a wife?"
But Samson said 'Get her for me,she is the right one for me'
[His parents did not know this was from the Lord,who was
seeking an occassion to confront the Philistines; for at that
time they were ruling over Israel]
This is one example of the Lord working something that would
seem contrary to HIS WILL for His own purpose.
Sheila
I kinda think the main issue here is being over looked, "in my opinion".
Not a one of us in this thread thinks that evil can over power God. We often argue that the logic of ET ultimatly shows evil can overpower God, but few in their mind actually believes evil is more powerful than God.
But thats not the issue really. The issue really is can it be seen in scripture that God created EVIL and subjected us to it, when he really didn't have to do so.
If it is true that this limitless God created evil when in his limitless state did not have to then, what does that imply?
This is the area where Christians often think Atheists are in an unbelief in God but that is not true in many cases, they are often arguing that the assertions and phrases Christians promote God with are in fact contradictory to scripture.
what if....He knew what evil was....and has done all this
[sought an occassion] to UTTERLY DESTROY IT?
we know it was in heaven first..and rejected of HIM...
what if...us being down here in the midst of it...was just
the occassion He was seeking to utterly destroy it?
what if He raised it up..to destroy it...what if He lowered us
to raise us up?
Sheila
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 11, 2009, 06:02:17 PM
I kinda think the main issue here is being over looked, "in my opinion".
But thats not the issue really. The issue really is can it be seen in scripture that God created EVIL and subjected us to it, when he really didn't have to do so.
If it is true that this limitless God created evil when in his limitless state did not have to then, what does that imply?
Just clarifying; I may be wrong, but I think the OP's point, and Scott's usual points argue against God's creation of and/or use of evil
at all. I understand it as a belief that man was disobedient and used their will against what God really wanted, and continues to do so...that God really wants something else for His creation but man is thwarting it until God eventually corrects it somehow.
It sounds like you're taking it into really trying to understand God's purposes for creating evil and His use of it rather than working things in a different direction, maybe even a direction or process that didn't involve the use of evil at all? And I'll admit, some of the intricacies of that question is beyond my personal understanding at this point.
I'm speaking for myself (and I know that doesn't necessarily "wash" for you Paul), I'm speaking for me. I just have to go into a "God is God and I'm not" mode to keep from having (what I believe for me) is a bad attitude and (TOO MUCH SO) questioning my Maker.
Again, just clarifying that I do believe your question (and I think I've seen you want to ponder this earlier in the thread) is more along the lines of the
process rather than an argument that "God didn't do it" in the first place. Is that right?
And have a great day! :bigGrin:
Quote from: sheila on August 11, 2009, 05:24:49 PM
Samson's marriage
Judges 14
'I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah;now get her for me
as a wife' His father and mother replied,'Isn't there an
acceptable woman among your relatives or among our people?
Must you go to the uncircumcized Philistines to get a wife?"
But Samson said 'Get her for me,she is the right one for me'
[His parents did not know this was from the Lord,who was
seeking an occassion to confront the Philistines; for at that
time they were ruling over Israel]
This is one example of the Lord working something that would
seem contrary to HIS WILL for His own purpose.
Sheila
Great point. I remember seeing that when I read the OT and smiling. There are many more examples too which are like that throughout the OT. Here is another:
1 Samuel 19:8-10
Once more war broke out, and David went out and fought the Philistines. He struck them with such force that they fled before him.
But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp, Saul tried to pin him to the wall with his spear, but David eluded him as Saul drove the spear into the wall. That night David made good his escape.
I still believe that evil must exist in this world and we are to experience this contrast of good and evil so (love and non-love) so that we can finally understand WHO God is. (by way of contrast.) What better way than to have us just experience it? For all that it is?
EXHAUST it once and for all. So it never rears it's ugly head again? We would never end up clinging to HIM and finding and seeing and understanding our LIFE IN Him without first being somewhat SEPARATED from Him and standing back and taking a look at what He... IS... and what He.. ISN'T. Do you know what I mean?
I think it is really simple.
But human beings make it really difficult and convoluted.
I really do.
I think children understand God better than adults.
But going through and being an adult helps you to EVENTUALLY understand God even better. Because of the life experience of the contrast of good and evil (love and non-love) (What God IS and what God isn't.) Some see part of the picture now. but ALL will SEE the WHOLE picture eventually. No fear. Everything is going to be ok.
He is working everything out for GOOD.
:happy3:
Quote from: sparrow on August 11, 2009, 08:32:47 PM
Do you know what I mean?
Yes, there can be no other way.
God placed the Tree of Life in the garden.
God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.
God placed all the other trees in the garden.
willieH: Hi Sister S! :hithere:
Quote from: sparrow on August 11, 2009, 08:32:47 PM
I still believe that evil must exist in this world and we are to experience this contrast of good and evil so (love and non-love) so that we can finally understand WHO God is. (by way of contrast.) What better way than to have us just experience it? For all that it is?
EXHAUST it once and for all. So it never rears it's ugly head again? We would never end up clinging to HIM and finding and seeing and understanding our LIFE IN Him without first being somewhat SEPARATED from Him and standing back and taking a look at what He... IS... and what He.. ISN'T. Do you know what I mean?
I think it is really simple.
But human beings make it really difficult and convoluted.
I really do.
I think children understand God better than adults.
But going through and being an adult helps you to EVENTUALLY understand God even better. Because of the life experience of the contrast of good and evil (love and non-love) (What God IS and what God isn't.) Some see part of the picture now. but ALL will SEE the WHOLE picture eventually. No fear. Everything is going to be ok.
He is working everything out for GOOD.
:happy3:
WAY GOOD post sis! :goodpost:
I agree... Children are INNOCENT in their beginning, and then become participants in the KNOWLEDGE... It is also interesting that we "can't wait to grow up", and once firmly upon that "arrival"... we begin to wish we were children again... :2c:
We are born (begin life here :myahoo:), and then... in that moment, take our first step in the "march" to our death. :sigh:
The further we, as a race move from the beginning INNOCENCE (Adam & Eve) which was COMPLETELY INNOCENT for Both were "born" DIRECTLY from the Hand of GOD... each step our Race has taken from there into the future, is a more DEGENERATIVE one, than the one before it...
Just as our BEGINNING is NEWLY ALIVE -- YOUNG, beautiful, innocent (blameless) and grows into strength... then life eventually deteriorates and grows into weakness, deceitfulness (blameable) and ugly... and in its END, becomes OLD and finally, DEAD.
Praise God, there is better to come for ALL... :grouppray:
...willieH :angelharp:
Quote from: jabcat on August 11, 2009, 07:45:38 AM
From Harold Lovelace's website, by Gary Marks;
We shall see that God uses the forces of evil to bring about good. Indeed, the greatest good of the universe comes from God's use of evil to accomplish His purpose.
...evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealing with evil and sin. But let me offer you the following facts for your consideration: God has control over Satan and all evil. Notice what God said to the serpent in Genesis 3:15: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise [literally, crush] thy head." Now this will take place in accord with God's purpose, for Paul writes in Romans 16:20, "Now the God of peace will be crushing Satan under your feet swiftly." Why does God wait to crush the head of the serpent? Why does He not crush him on the spot? No, there is still a need for the work of the serpent in God's plan and purpose. God has control over the movement of the serpent. He can only go as, and where, God permits. He is anything but free in his activities and he cannot defy the God Who made him. Read the first two chapters of Job and see how God restrained Satan in his dealings with this patriarch. He could go just so far and no further. And what did Satan's evil upon Job produce? Why, it just proved God's word to be true. God had said that Job was righteous, and all the evil that Satan wrought but heralded the fact that God is true and that His word is immutable.
Satan is not a problem to God, and He has no difficulty in disposing of the cunning serpent. How can I believe that Satan deceived Eve contrary to the will of God, when God unlocks him so that he can deceive the nations? If Eve's deception was contrary to God's purpose, why did not God lock up the serpent prior to his entrance into the garden? And why must Satan be loosed again at the close of the thousand years? Does not this tell us that God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities?
The key that unlocks the door to our understanding of the purpose of evil lies in two secrets made known by the apostle Paul....1 Corinthians 2:6-8: "Yet wisdom are we speaking among the mature, yet a wisdom not of this eon, neither of the chief men of this eon, who are being discarded, but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates beforehand, before the eons, for our glory, which not one of the chief men of this eon knows, for if they know, they would not crucify the Lord of glory." These...secrets deal with the exit or the repudiation of sin.
It should not be difficult for us to see that all that took place concerning the death of Christ was a part of God's plan and purpose. But it was concealed from those who were the actors. The word translated "designates beforehand" in 1 Corinthians 2:6,7, is the same Greek word with the prefix "before." The cross of Christ was designated beforehand, before when? Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all should be delivered from death and sin, for He designated these things for our glory. So we read in Acts 4:27,28, "For of a truth, in this city were gathered against Thy holy Boy Jesus, Whom Thou dost anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, together with the nations and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel designates beforehand to occur."
Yes, God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom. The concealing of the secret was only for the fulfilling of His purpose. It is in Paul's writings that God's secrets are made known. True, Jesus made known the secrets of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13). And even in that secret, evil forms a major part, such as Israel's blindness. But the secrets that reveal the complement of God's purpose are found only in Paul's writings. Yet almost all teaching today is void of all the secrets Paul made known. Not only are they ignored, that would be cause enough for concern, but they are usually denied. Failure to see that Paul had a special ministry, and the practice of trying to make his ministry fit that which is written concerning Israel and the earthly kingdom, blinds many eyes to God's purpose of evil. To some, evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. The only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus.
Great post from Harold's site! :thumbsup:
Glad you thought so, Doc. Bro Lovelace has some good teaching :thumbsup:.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 11, 2009, 09:21:30 PM
God placed the Tree of Life in the garden.
God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden.
God placed all the other trees in the garden.
Amen. "For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God."
I Cor. 11:12
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 11, 2009, 06:02:17 PM
I kinda think the main issue here is being over looked, "in my opinion".
Not a one of us in this thread thinks that evil can over power God. We often argue that the logic of ET ultimatly shows evil can overpower God, but few in their mind actually believes evil is more powerful than God.
But thats not the issue really. The issue really is can it be seen in scripture that God created EVIL and subjected us to it, when he really didn't have to do so.
If it is true that this limitless God created evil when in his limitless state did not have to then, what does that imply?
This is the area where Christians often think Atheists are in an unbelief in God but that is not true in many cases, they are often arguing that the assertions and phrases Christians promote God with are in fact contradictory to scripture.
Mypersonal beleife is that we have been subjected to vanity so that we can understand whatevil is and what its effects are. I submit that by our experience heresome of us have turned to God now and we are awaiting anend to this evil state. There areothers who as of yet have not realized the vanity of their exisitance, but when confronted by the absolute truth of God and His infinite love they will repent and accept God.
Quote from: willieH on August 11, 2009, 09:51:24 PM
WAY GOOD post sis! :goodpost:
I agree... Children are INNOCENT in their beginning, and then become participants in the KNOWLEDGE... It is also interesting that we "can't wait to grow up", and once firmly upon that "arrival"... we begin to wish we were children again... :2c:
Isn't that the truth?!
But how much more wonderful it will be when we go back to those childlike qualities yet now we are not as ignorant and know just how GOOD "GOOD" is and just how GOOD GOD is!!
It's tough, the journey to getting there... but the destination is absolutely worth it.
I think the yearning to go back home, and yes I think it is a journey BACK home (at least that is the way it feels in my heart :dontknow: ), anyway..it's what keeps me going.
Quote from: willieH on August 11, 2009, 09:51:24 PM
We are born (begin life here :myahoo:), and then... in that moment, take our first step in the "march" to our death. :sigh:
The further we, as a race move from the beginning INNOCENCE (Adam & Eve) which was COMPLETELY INNOCENT for Both were "born" DIRECTLY from the Hand of GOD... each step our Race has taken from there into the future, is a more DEGENERATIVE one, than the one before it...
Just as our BEGINNING is NEWLY ALIVE -- YOUNG, beautiful, innocent (blameless) and grows into strength... then life eventually deteriorates and grows into weakness, deceitfulness (blameable) and ugly... and in its END, becomes OLD and finally, DEAD.
Praise God, there is better to come for ALL... :grouppray:
...willieH :angelharp:
So true.
:HeartThrob:
The Hand of Sovereignty and the hand of Self-determinism, do not convey the same intimate connection, as:
"His Spirit goes hand in hand with ours; one hand in the other, if we're walking in the cool of the day with him."
The former, implies a separation as is viewed in the minds of men. And the crusaders of these separate directions (i.e. camps, per se) have left the people in the swamps of blind behaviorism by subjectively removing, ignoring or explaining away His Attributes, as secondary or outside of His Sovereignty.
I see things as being more compatible without the fatalism of either side of the equation, given the thoughts and intents of the heart of men who eliminate aspects of His Sovereignty; or our choices.
We will make one choice or that of another in any given situation, especially, when confronted with alternatives.
"If I refuse to make a choice, I am still making a choice; the choice not to choose."
Which is not the opposite of making a choice, rather, the absence of making one.
It is impossible for man to make progress beyond the boundaries of the system to which they are attached; good and evil, without the Spirit of truth.
Therefore, let us remember to walk in the Spirit of the Day, it's ALL GOOD!
peacemaker
Quote from: preistsplace on August 12, 2009, 03:34:34 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 11, 2009, 06:02:17 PM
I kinda think the main issue here is being over looked, "in my opinion".
Not a one of us in this thread thinks that evil can over power God. We often argue that the logic of ET ultimatly shows evil can overpower God, but few in their mind actually believes evil is more powerful than God.
But thats not the issue really. The issue really is can it be seen in scripture that God created EVIL and subjected us to it, when he really didn't have to do so.
If it is true that this limitless God created evil when in his limitless state did not have to then, what does that imply?
This is the area where Christians often think Atheists are in an unbelief in God but that is not true in many cases, they are often arguing that the assertions and phrases Christians promote God with are in fact contradictory to scripture.
Mypersonal beleife is that we have been subjected to vanity so that we can understand whatevil is and what its effects are. I submit that by our experience heresome of us have turned to God now and we are awaiting anend to this evil state. There areothers who as of yet have not realized the vanity of their exisitance, but when confronted by the absolute truth of God and His infinite love they will repent and accept God.
Not disputing that, the issue often is, while we see that we have been subject to vanity and many turned to God that way, could have God caused us to learn without subjecting us to it. After all as some say God is unlimited, so what limited him in having to do that? His choice? What kind of character are we to understand then to believe God chose to subject a human being to torture in a POW camp if he did not have to?
To say it was for a good purpose still does not solve the problem, if God is unlimited concerning our perception then no suffering was actually necessary.
If God created us to have to be taught that way, then if he is unlimited he could have created us to learn without experiencing pain and suffering so it does reflect on that character if that is true.
I submit, that we have to learn this way because there is one process of God expanding (creation to perfection) and we are smack in the middle of that process. All the pain and suffering is real no matter how temporary it is and when we are one with God we will see that it was NEVER about Gods choices, it is about the only way it can possibly be.
So from OUR perspective that "appears" to be a limitation of God, but what has to be has nothing to do with limitations it is an assurance that "because" it's the only way, then there is NOTHING that can prevent us from being reconciled.
Amos 3:6 ....Shall there be evil in a city which the Lord has not wrought?
Ecclesiastes 1:13 .... It is an evil task which God has given to the sons of men to be busied with.
Hosea 13:16 Samaria is held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped open.
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' Þ God created evil for a purpose?
Isaiah 54:16 .... and I have created the one who ruins to destroy.
Isaiah 63:17 O Jehovah, why do You make us wander from Your ways? You harden our heart from Your fear. For Your servants' sake, return the tribes of Your inheritance.
Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion, take refuge, do not wait around; for I will bring evil from the north, and great destruction.
Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts...
Jeremiah 18:11 Now then, go speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I am forming evil against you, and devising a plan against you. Return now, each one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God: It was GOD'S idea to severely try Job, not Satan's.
But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job.
Do we think God does it differently today? Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change....
Job 2:10 .... Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?....
Joshua 23:15 .... so doth Jehovah bring upon you the whole of the evil thing....
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
1 Kings 22:22 And Jehovah said to him, In what way? And he said, I will go out and be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall entice him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.
Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah has made all things for a witness; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
1 Samuel 15:2-3 So says Jehovah of Hosts, .... go, and you shall strike Amalek and destroy all that he has. And you shall have no pity on him, and you shall put to death all from man to woman, from little one to suckling, from ox to sheep, from camel to ass.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says Jehovah: Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own house; ....
2 Thessalonians 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
Great list, WW.
Ra is always translated as evil.
Ada as calamity.
:cloud9: Ra is the word for evil.....thought it was interesting in light of the fact the Egyptian sun god was named Ra....
Quote from: Cardinal on July 30, 2010, 10:13:03 AM
:cloud9: Ra is the word for evil.....thought it was interesting in light of the fact the Egyptian sun god was named Ra....
It is said,
"You shall not create any graven images, which are deeply impressed and firmly fixed upon the mind." I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. peacemaker
Quote from: jabcat on July 29, 2009, 11:18:55 AM
L.Ray Smith says; Now listen carefully. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.
Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?
I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world, STUPIDITY!
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).
First, Christendom assumes that God's creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!
Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!
One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!
Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God's sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God's solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.
The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here's the proof:
Let's look at a little understood Scripture.
"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that's God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn't ask anyone's permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.
This post is so powerful. Long before I was introduced to these kinds of concepts being taught God doesn't create evil...I believed otherwise. If God is all knowing, he knew before creation the results of creation. If he is all powerful he is able to stop said evils. That must mean that even the evils of this world are used for his perfect will and plan.
Quote from: peacemaker on July 30, 2009, 05:18:00 AM
Did God have to create evil in order to create evil in the minds of men?
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1: 5)
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man (James 1:13)
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (Romans 1 18)
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities; His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became ...... (Romans 1:20-22)
Is cold the absence of heat?
Blindness the absence of sight?
Hate the absence of love?
Darkness the absence of Light?
"The opposite of one thing is the absence of the other."
To remain in the sea is opposite of standing on the shore; and many refuse, or are unable to climb the mountain.
God did not create evil as is perceived by man, but does cause adversity. And a catastrophe, disaster, calamity,
or times of trouble are not evil in and of themselves.
peacemaker
If I create a weapon that I know will be used to kill others would you hold me responsible for creating that weapon?
The weapon God created was the biggest "hydrogen water bomb!" (h20)known to man, he then popped it upon the earth and a huge flood killed most of the population apart from Noah and his familly :grin:
But ultimately it was for our good.
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 09:21:18 PM
Quote from: Shadow on July 30, 2009, 04:02:08 PM
QuoteAlmost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Doesn't the first scripture I quoted, mean that He created satan and everything else?
Hi shadow I agree and have used those scriptures to show satans reconciliation.
But satan is just a title and not a proper name it means adversary.
So although God created all things, He created them good and by departing from His will they became evil.
Therefore God did not create satan(the adversary), satan created himself. Just as God never created man with sin, man disobeyed and became a sinner. Sinner is not a proper name but because of disobedience that is what man BECAME.
Wow. I must admit that is also a compelling argument. Ok, now I'm more confused than ever. I guess sticking to "I just trust God" is going to have to be sufficient for me now. :bigGrin:
Quote from: shawn on July 31, 2010, 01:38:18 AM
If I create a weapon that I know will be used to kill others would you hold me responsible for creating that weapon?
Depends on the reason you created it in the first place?
"
Knowing and doing are two different things." peacemaker
Quote from: shawn on July 31, 2010, 02:24:55 AM
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 09:21:18 PM
Quote from: Shadow on July 30, 2009, 04:02:08 PM
QuoteAlmost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Doesn't the first scripture I quoted, mean that He created satan and everything else?
Hi shadow I agree and have used those scriptures to show satans reconciliation.
But satan is just a title and not a proper name it means adversary.
So although God created all things, He created them good and by departing from His will they became evil.
Therefore God did not create satan(the adversary), satan created himself. Just as God never created man with sin, man disobeyed and became a sinner. Sinner is not a proper name but because of disobedience that is what man BECAME.
Wow. I must admit that is also a compelling argument. Ok, now I'm more confused than ever. I guess sticking to "I just trust God" is going to have to be sufficient for me now. :bigGrin:
Shawn, have you read j. Preston Eby's "Just What Do You Mean, Man Is a Free Moral Agent"? It may be best to not tussle with it too much here in the discussion forum, but it's on the TM homepage.
Quote from: shawn on July 31, 2010, 01:34:44 AM
Quote from: jabcat on July 29, 2009, 11:18:55 AM
L.Ray Smith says; Now listen carefully. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.
Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?
I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world, STUPIDITY!
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).
First, Christendom assumes that God's creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!
Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!
One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!
Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God's sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God's solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.
The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here's the proof:
Let's look at a little understood Scripture.
"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that's God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn't ask anyone's permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.
This post is so powerful. Long before I was introduced to these kinds of concepts being taught God doesn't create evil...I believed otherwise. If God is all knowing, he knew before creation the results of creation. If he is all powerful he is able to stop said evils. That must mean that even the evils of this world are used for his perfect will and plan.
The greatest thing about this marvelous post is that it only make sense if one believe in UR.
Like the jars made for vile usage and those for honorable usage, if God choose to hardens someone's heart only to send him into an everlasting torture, then he is to be called evil.
But since God knows that at last everything will be for the good, if he knows that one day he'll be all in all, then all the sufferings here are nothing compared to the greatness of that future.
"Few men desire liberty; the majority are satisfied with a just master."
No longer sold into slavery; bondage.
Free from captivity.
peacemaker
Quote from: jabcat on July 31, 2010, 02:30:32 AM
Quote from: shawn on July 31, 2010, 02:24:55 AM
Quote from: pneuma on July 30, 2009, 09:21:18 PM
Quote from: Shadow on July 30, 2009, 04:02:08 PM
QuoteAlmost every Christian I know makes that statement Tim, but NOWHERE in scripture does it say God created the devil/satan.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Doesn't the first scripture I quoted, mean that He created satan and everything else?
Hi shadow I agree and have used those scriptures to show satans reconciliation.
But satan is just a title and not a proper name it means adversary.
So although God created all things, He created them good and by departing from His will they became evil.
Therefore God did not create satan(the adversary), satan created himself. Just as God never created man with sin, man disobeyed and became a sinner. Sinner is not a proper name but because of disobedience that is what man BECAME.
Wow. I must admit that is also a compelling argument. Ok, now I'm more confused than ever. I guess sticking to "I just trust God" is going to have to be sufficient for me now. :bigGrin:
Shawn, have you read j. Preston Eby's "Just What Do You Mean, Man Is a Free Moral Agent"? It may be best to not tussle with it too much here in the discussion forum, but it's on the TM homepage.
I can't really say that I have.
LOL, you answered my question. What I really meant was to suggest it to you. Now that's funny. Good answer. :laugh2:
Here you go. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
Thanks Jab :bigGrin:
:wink3:
I'm not so keen on Preston I think he has a spirit of anger about him, there's a lot of things I haven't read from him yet though.
Anger in Preston Eby?
Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 07:06:22 PM
I'm not so keen on Preston I think he has a spirit of anger about him, there's a lot of things I haven't read from him yet though.
:omg: You must be reading a
different "
J. Preston Eby"...
He is of most
GENTLE writers in Christianity that I have ever read!
What particular article have you read of his that appeared "ANGRY", T-tank? :dontknow:
I'm thinking you might be confusing EBY with L. Ray Smith... (although L. Ray has no
"spirit of anger", just very little tolerance for LIES and EVIL reports of the
WORD)
...willieH :cloud9:
I can't remember, I went to his main site and quickly read some of his articles and lot's of words popped out such as blaspehmous, antichrist and anger towards certain teachings. You are right, I judged to quickly, but I just wanted to know whether he is trustworthy before I read some of his writings, whether someone else felt the same as me.
" I can't remember, I went to his main site and quickly read..." — T-Tank
What a good lesson we all can learn from this.
lol
We should Think before we Tank.
Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 09:14:41 PM
I can't remember, I went to his main site and quickly read some of his articles and lot's of words popped out such as blaspehmous, antichrist and anger towards certain teachings. You are right, I judged to quickly, but I just wanted to know whether he is trustworthy before I read some of his writings, whether someone else felt the same as me.
I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, as I hate the ET doctrine with a passion myself, I can understand his anger towards it :happy3:
I don't see many christians throwing their toys out of the pram when many of them create websites that imply we are worthless scum deserving of ET simply for being born, and it's gracious of God to save a few as we all deserve nothing but hell, God would still be loving if he sent everyone to hell.......Forgive me if I don't agree, even my own father doesn't think so little of me
case in point
http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/predestination/predestination_slick.htm
If christian decorum (or the lack thereof) means so much to you check this out...uncouth and totally boorish to say the least, even judging by non-christian standards
http://www.1john57.com/213refutations.htm
Here it is debunked by someone far more courteous and civilized, that seems to show the fruits of the spirit (IMHO)
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
Quote from: Shadow on July 31, 2010, 09:43:29 PM
Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 09:14:41 PM
I can't remember, I went to his main site and quickly read some of his articles and lot's of words popped out such as blaspehmous, antichrist and anger towards certain teachings. You are right, I judged to quickly, but I just wanted to know whether he is trustworthy before I read some of his writings, whether someone else felt the same as me.
I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, as I hate the ET doctrine with a passion myself, I can understand his anger towards it :happy3:
I don't see many christians throwing their toys out of the pram when many of them create websites that imply we are worthless scum deserving of ET simply for being born, and it's gracious of God to save a few as we all deserve nothing but hell, God would still be loving if he sent everyone to hell.......Forgive me if I don't agree, even my own father doesn't think so little of me
case in point
http://www.albatrus.org/english/theology/predestination/predestination_slick.htm
If christian decorum (or the lack thereof) means so much to you check this out...uncouth and totally boorish to say the least, even judging by non-christian standards
http://www.1john57.com/213refutations.htm
Here it is debunked by someone far more courteous and civilized, that seems to show the fruits of the spirit (IMHO)
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
Went to the 2nd link and I don't understand his use of 2 Peter 2:10 to justify free will, anybody?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 31, 2010, 09:28:12 PM
" I can't remember, I went to his main site and quickly read..." — T-Tank
What a good lesson we all can learn from this.
lol
We should Think before we Tank.
I think I have good instincts and I wanted to test to see if someone else felt the same and honest shadow did pick up that he had anger towards ET, preachers, so I must have sensed that.
I agree though that we should generally Think before we Tank :laughing7:
Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 11:29:53 PM
I think I have good instincts and I wanted to test to see if someone else felt the same and honest shadow did pick up that he had anger towards ET, preachers, so I must have sensed that.
I agree though that we should generally Think before we Tank :laughing7:
...... yet you have nothing to say about the narcissistic anger and rage of ETers which is far worse, as evidenced by the second link I posted :mshock:
QuoteWent to the 2nd link and I don't understand his use of 2 Peter 2:10 to justify free will, anybody?
Go to the third link where it's debunked
Quote from: Shadow on August 01, 2010, 12:00:41 AM
Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 11:29:53 PM
I think I have good instincts and I wanted to test to see if someone else felt the same and honest shadow did pick up that he had anger towards ET, preachers, so I must have sensed that.
I agree though that we should generally Think before we Tank :laughing7:
...... yet you have nothing to say about the narcissistic anger and rage of ETers which is far worse, as evidenced by the second link I posted :mshock:
QuoteWent to the 2nd link and I don't understand his use of 2 Peter 2:10 to justify free will, anybody?
Go to the third link where it's debunked
I've posted many posts about how I feel about ET on here, this is one of the biggest reason I came to register on this forum, so no shock required :msealed:
I didnt post that about Peter 2:10.
I have checked the link and when I saw all those questions and the way it was formatted, I was like :eyebrow: its going to be a long night. So I've yet to read it.
God bless
Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 07:06:22 PM
I'm not so keen on Preston I think he has a spirit of anger about him, there's a lot of things I haven't read from him yet though.
Should Bro. Eby be angry its a about the best anger I ever want to be around! If what J.Preston Eby emits is anger then I will set in front of that teaching day and night, if that is anger that I read in his papers, then..bring it on! If what that man of God has to offer the saints has any anger at all it is for the ignorance of those who will not hear. My :2c: :Sparkletooth:
Hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!
Hear, hear!
You are beloved servant...I await...I am brusied, or am I to take your words as something other than slight?
Quote from: Quaesitor on July 31, 2010, 10:46:54 PM
Went to the 2nd link and I don't understand his use of 2 Peter 2:10 to justify free will, anybody?
KJV2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
I think he means that those peope freely chose "that walk" because God wouldn't command such a thing.
Dear Micah,
Brother, I meant that with the deepest sincerity and the utmost respect.
And, it applies to you and Preston.
The Lord blesses. Thank you Beloved.
Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
Quote from: Shadow on August 01, 2010, 12:00:41 AM
Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 11:29:53 PM
I think I have good instincts and I wanted to test to see if someone else felt the same and honest shadow did pick up that he had anger towards ET, preachers, so I must have sensed that.
I agree though that we should generally Think before we Tank :laughing7:
...... yet you have nothing to say about the narcissistic anger and rage of ETers which is far worse, as evidenced by the second link I posted :mshock:
QuoteWent to the 2nd link and I don't understand his use of 2 Peter 2:10 to justify free will, anybody?
Go to the third link where it's debunked
I've posted many posts about how I feel about ET on here, this is one of the biggest reason I came to register on this forum, so no shock required :msealed:
I didnt post that about Peter 2:10.
I have checked the link and when I saw all those questions and the way it was formatted, I was like :eyebrow: its going to be a long night. So I've yet to read it.
God bless
Selfwilled...G829
αὐθάδης
authadēs
ow-thad'-ace
From G846 and the base of G2237; self pleasing, that is, arrogant: - self-willed.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2010, 06:08:46 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
Quote from: Shadow on August 01, 2010, 12:00:41 AM
Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 11:29:53 PM
I think I have good instincts and I wanted to test to see if someone else felt the same and honest shadow did pick up that he had anger towards ET, preachers, so I must have sensed that.
I agree though that we should generally Think before we Tank :laughing7:
...... yet you have nothing to say about the narcissistic anger and rage of ETers which is far worse, as evidenced by the second link I posted :mshock:
QuoteWent to the 2nd link and I don't understand his use of 2 Peter 2:10 to justify free will, anybody?
Go to the third link where it's debunked
I've posted many posts about how I feel about ET on here, this is one of the biggest reason I came to register on this forum, so no shock required :msealed:
I didnt post that about Peter 2:10.
I have checked the link and when I saw all those questions and the way it was formatted, I was like :eyebrow: its going to be a long night. So I've yet to read it.
God bless
Selfwilled...G829
αὐθάδης
authadēs
ow-thad'-ace
From G846 and the base of G2237; self pleasing, that is, arrogant: - self-willed.
what do you mean? I don't see the word selfwilled contained within the quote :dontknow:
Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 07:39:50 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2010, 06:08:46 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 12:24:00 AM
Quote from: Shadow on August 01, 2010, 12:00:41 AM
Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 11:29:53 PM
I think I have good instincts and I wanted to test to see if someone else felt the same and honest shadow did pick up that he had anger towards ET, preachers, so I must have sensed that.
I agree though that we should generally Think before we Tank :laughing7:
...... yet you have nothing to say about the narcissistic anger and rage of ETers which is far worse, as evidenced by the second link I posted :mshock:
QuoteWent to the 2nd link and I don't understand his use of 2 Peter 2:10 to justify free will, anybody?
Go to the third link where it's debunked
I've posted many posts about how I feel about ET on here, this is one of the biggest reason I came to register on this forum, so no shock required :msealed:
I didnt post that about Peter 2:10.
I have checked the link and when I saw all those questions and the way it was formatted, I was like :eyebrow: its going to be a long night. So I've yet to read it.
God bless
Selfwilled...G829
αὐθάδης
authadēs
ow-thad'-ace
From G846 and the base of G2237; self pleasing, that is, arrogant: - self-willed.
what do you mean? I don't see the word selfwilled contained within the quote :dontknow:
Went to the 2nd link and I don't understand his use of 2 Peter 2:10 to justify free will, anybody?
willieH: Hi Quaesitor... :hithere:
Welcome to Tentmaker! :welcome:
Quote from: Quaesitor on July 31, 2010, 10:46:54 PM
Went to the 2nd link and I don't understand his use of 2 Peter 2:10 to justify free will, anybody?
I took a quick browse, and found early mentions of 2 Pet 2:10 (in item #4 & #5)
Here are the "items" referencing
2 Pet 2:10:
Quote4. As God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love? God loves all of His creation. But all have sinned. God cannot be in the presence of sin. Because they can choose between good and evil(2Peter 2:10). Self-willed means self-willed against God's will(2Peter2:10). When a Christian sins, is this God's will or Man's will?
5. If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33) Absolutely false. God loves all of His creation (John 3:16, 1John 2:2) so much that He sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins, even while we were are still sinners! Mankind sinned. God cannot sin. The problem is man and his sinful nature. Because they can choose between good and evil(2Peter 2:10). Self-willed means self-willed against God's will(2Peter2:10). When a Christian sins, is this God's will or Man's will?
The person writing these [IMO] is DISINVOLVED with
reason concerning
2 Pet 2:10 -- and fails to address Scripture elsewhere which notes that ALL MEN are SINNERS because GOD has
declared (decided and concluded) they shall be --
Rom 3:23 -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- Rom 3:10-12The problem begins in
Item #4... the deduction is made that
"GOD cannot be in the presence of sin"...
This
statement is:
(1) -- UNBIBLICAL (no
BIBLICAL reference is given to establish this
statement, for there are none -- if you know of one, let me know :winkgrin:)
(2) -- Contrary to the
WORD which notes that GOD is
EVERYWHERE (omni
PRESENT) --
Psalm 139:8 -- Pro 15:11 -- and that ALL that exists, finds its particular EXISTENCE --
IN HIM and
BY HIM --
Col 1:16 -- Acts 17:28The author begins in
Item #4 by laying a false foundation (that
"God cannot be in the presence of sin", and then builds upon it in
Item #5... by noting the "SELF WILL" of man, as something which is completely disassociated with GOD and His doings...
(3) -- In
Item #5... the conclusion is made by the author, that "SELF WILL" means:
"self willed means self willed against GOD's will" Eph 1:11 -- clearly notes that GOD is WORKING
all things... and those [all] things are done according to the advisements (counsel) of
HIS OWN WILL... :dontknow:
"ALL THINGS" does not
disinclude ANYTHING. And the statement that HE IS WORKING them... notes HIS INVOLVEMENT in them, not DISASSOCIATION due to the state in which HE DECLARED they would be [SINFUL]... for HE CONCLUDED
ALL in
UNBELIEF --
Rom 11:32 -- and because His
WORD declares that "whatsoever is NOT OF FAITH, IS SIN" --
Rom 14:23 ...further means that
His conclusion of UNBELIEF in all men
founds their SINFULNESS. :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
Thanks WillieH.
Might be because I read it in my native language(french) and the word used by the translator was arrogant/arrogance so I saw nothing about the self-will there.
I hated reading his answers because they were so poor and illogical that I had a great desire to have that man in front of me and answer him.
:bigGrin: