Hey guys,
In my quest to find truth of UR, i rely on the bible only. i don't rely on extra-bible books or commentaries from other people. How do we know those people are Holy Spirit inspired? you don't. so what it really comes down to in my mind is can you show biblical proof of sins being forgiven and repentance after someone dies? I know people die in their sins everyday. 180,000 people die everyday worldwide. I have seen the scriptures 1Cor3:15 and phil2:10 and romans 5;18 and all the others(very good scriptures) but where does it say they will repent and be forgiven if they die in their sins? So, that being the case , if someone die s in thier sins where in the bible does it say they will come to repentance and be forgiven? thanks guys.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 01:57:57 AM
Hey guys,
In my quest to find truth of UR, i rely on the bible only. i don't rely on extra-bible books or commentaries from other people. How do we know those people are Holy Spirit inspired? you don't. so what it really comes down to in my mind is can you show biblical proof of sins being forgiven and repentance after someone dies? I know people die in their sins everyday. 180,000 people die everyday worldwide. I have seen the scriptures 1Cor3:15 and phil2:10 and romans 5;18 and all the others(very good scriptures) but where does it say they will repent and be forgiven if they die in their sins? So, that being said the case , if someone die s in thier sins where in the bible does it say they will come to repentance and be forgiven? thanks guys.
At the cross, at the cross.
I rely on the Holy Spirit only for my truth. Someone told me that I will be led to all truth via the Spirit.
Everyone dies in their sins and Jesus died for all. Believe it or not but I think God loves His enemies and His love turns these enemies into friends!
cp
claypool,
What? The cross? I know their is redemption at the cross but the bible is clear you must repent an believe. everyone dies in their sins? why do you think this? believers have their sins cleansed by the blood, whe are made white as snow, made righteous, how can a believer die in thier sins?
ok, but where in the bible does it say God loves his enemies and his love turns these into friends? no offense i just never read that in the bible. But back to my question where in the bible does it say people repentant and are fprgiven of theirs sins? thanks
Hm. "Claypool", eh? Mistyping people's screen names: further evidence that lee100 is really CoG37.
I have a question for you. The scripture states that God is love, and that this God that is love tells us to love our enemies. Why would God expect us to be better than Him in doing something he does not do Himself?
doc,
oops an honest mistake..im not the greatest speller but sorry to disappoint you im just lee.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:13:07 AM
claypool,
What? The cross? I know their is redemption at the cross but the bible is clear you must repent an believe. everyone dies in their sins? why do you think this? believers have their sins cleansed by the blood, whe are made white as snow, made righteous, how can a believer die in thier sins?
ok, but where in the bible does it say God loves his enemies and his love turns these into friends? no offense i just never read that in the bible. But back to my question where in the bible does it say people repentant and are fprgiven of theirs sins? thanks
Did you not die in your sins at the cross? Did not the 'old man' lee die so the new man could rise? Were you not 'born again' or did you not become a new creature in Christ thus having had to die to the old?
leester, you die in your sins and rose to newness of life in Christ, did you not? I'm confused you don't know this.
A believer can't die in their sins for they have no sin in Christ and that is who a believer is. Only sinners have the privilege and grace of dying in their sins of whom you were once.
My friend, bank on this............His love turned you from an enemy into a friend of His so don't belittle His love.
Why do you want to see where in Scripture it says what you ask? If you see it will you believe it or will you say it is interpreted wrong by whoever shows you. Why don't you ask the Spirit of God?
If you will only believe the Bible as you see it then why are you even asking us any questions at all? What is your motive here?
By the way, I like that 'claypool' name, makes me sound much more distinguished than I really am but thanks anyway and will await your response. Thank you and God bless.
cp
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:25:13 AM
doc,
oops an honest mistake..im not the greatest speller but sorry to disappoint you im just lee.
Yes, but a very coincidental honest mistake that the now-banned person using the screen name ChosenofGod37 also made. Anyway, I did edit the post, and now there is a question for you in it, "lee". :laughing7:
claypot,
thanks for your reply. my motive is simple. if i'm going to believe UR to be true i want to see the bible verses that say people are granted repentance and are forgiven of their sins after they die. it is really simple stuff. just show me in the bible where it says this and then i know it to be true and from God and not from man.
doc,
i believe we are to love are enemies so that they can see Christ in us and because of that light they see, they will ask us why we are so nice to them and that opens the door to witness and point to the cross for thier salvation. but , to my knowledge no where in the bible says that god will make his enemies his fiends, especially after they die.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:36:09 AM
claypot,
thanks for your reply. my motive is simple. if i'm going to believe UR to be true i want to see the bible verses that say people are granted repentance and are forgiven of their sins. it is really simple stuff. just show me in the bible where it says this and then i know it to be true and from God and not from man.
I will write again..... You did answer one question of mine but left a bunch unanswered. Please answer all.............
Did you not die in your sins at the cross? Did not the 'old man' lee die so the new man could rise? Were you not 'born again' or did you not become a new creature in Christ thus having had to die to the old?
leester, you die in your sins and rose to newness of life in Christ, did you not? I'm confused you don't know this.
A believer can't die in their sins for they have no sin in Christ and that is who a believer is. Only sinners have the privilege and grace of dying in their sins of whom you were once.
My friend, bank on this............His love turned you from an enemy into a friend of His so don't belittle His love.
Why do you want to see where in Scripture it says what you ask? If you see it will you believe it or will you say it is interpreted wrong by whoever shows you? Why don't you ask the Spirit of God?
If you will only believe the Bible as you see it then why are you even asking us any questions at all? What is your motive here?
lee, do you believe it was Gods love that turned you from a sinner into a chosen one, a saved one?
claypoy,
thanks for your reply again. i really do appreaciate it, i do. but where in the bible, chapter and verse does it say that man is granted repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die?
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:41:07 AM
doc,
i believe we are to love are enemies so that they can see Christ in us and because of that light they see, they will ask us why we are so nice to them and that opens the door to witness and point to the cross for thier salvation. but , to my knowledge no where in the bible says that god will make his enemies his fiends, especially after they die.
How would they see Christ's love in us if He doesn't love his enemies? We don't manufacture the power to love our enemies ourselves.
I see nowhere in the scripture at all that God makes any distinction between enemies and friends based on their current state of existence. "especially" or otherwise.
What I do see in the scripture is that God will eventually be all in all; not all in some, not all in most. All in all. No exceptions are made to this.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:41:07 AM
doc,
i believe we are to love are enemies so that they can see Christ in us and because of that light they see, they will ask us why we are so nice to them and that opens the door to witness and point to the cross for thier salvation. but , to my knowledge no where in the bible says that god will make his enemies his fiends, especially after they die.
Now this is interesting..............I know we all spell certain things wrong when posting, it is inevitable (sp?). Anyway I notice some unique spelling errors, I used to be a typesetter and certain misspellings stick out. Now I see where lee writes
we are to love are enemiesthat this is the same way cog wrote such a sentence...............I'm sure it's just a coincidence but it is interesting and why do I have the exact same feeling towards lee as I did towards cog? I'm sure it's just me but I just wanted to comment.
cp
claypot,
why would cog want to stay on a forum if he/ or she was getting treated like your treating me? claypot, please answer my question or let someone else. but where in the bible, chapter and verse does it say that man is granted repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die?
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:48:19 AM
claypoy,
thanks for your reply again. i really do appreaciate it, i do. but where in the bible, chapter and verse does it say that man is granted repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die?
cog asked the same question and he, she or it was given a myriad of chapter and verse that he, she or it totally chose not to believe.
lee, if you read your Bible you will see the verses and if you leave it to me to show you then you are of all people most miserable. Only the Holy Spirit can cause you to see chapter and verse as you put it. I cannot show you anything so if it will take me showing you chapter and verse for you to believe then I am afraid you will never believe. Stay with those people who you have around you who are more than willing to show you chapter and verse. They will be more than willing to have you follow them.
Thank you and God bless and I will await your response.
You still have not answered most of my questions but......
cp
will some one else please answer my question? where in the bible, chapter and verse does it say man is granted repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die? this is a simple task, i would think to provide if it werer in the bible. i just want to read it for myself. i am on a UR forum correct? there has to be someone on this forum that can show me that god grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die, chapter and verse or why would you believe it, right? please help someone.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:57:06 AM
claypot,
why would cog want to stay on a forum if he/ or she was getting treated like your treating me? claypot, please answer my question or let someone else. but where in the bible, chapter and verse does it say that man is granted repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die?
I believe cog had an adversarial spirit and like Jesus telling satan to get behind Him, cog was forced to leave this forum. I think I will really like cog when we meet later but for now the spirit that guides him irritates the hell out of me but that is my own personal problem or maybe it's the Spirit within me but God will judge that.
I have responded to your questions in the only way I know how and you have not answered mine which is exactly how cog behaved most of the time.
cp
I will answer your question by asking you a question. When exactly did our sins get forgiven by God, chapter and verse? Your correct answer to that will answer your own question, which, by the way, Claypot answered as well, although not using a particular Bible verse to do so.
Ron
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 03:00:46 AM
will some one else please answer my question? where in the bible, chapter and verse does it say man is granted repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die? this is a simple task, i would think to provide if it werer in the bible. i just want to read it for myself.
Again, if you have read the Bible and haven't seen it why ask us? Have you read the Bible lee?
cp
ron,
i'm asking where in the bible, chapter and verse does it say God grants man repentance and forgivemees of sin AFTER they die, not when they are alive. i know when my sins were forgiven is when i placed my faith in Jesus' sacrifice for the payment for my sins. i believe Jesus went to the cross before there was time rev 13:8, but people have to believe for that to be applied. so please answer my question, where in the bible does God grant repentance and forgiveness of sin After they die?
Quote from: Doc on August 20, 2009, 02:33:02 AM
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:25:13 AM
doc,
oops an honest mistake..im not the greatest speller but sorry to disappoint you im just lee.
Yes, but a very coincidental honest mistake that the now-banned person using the screen name ChosenofGod37 also made. Anyway, I did edit the post, and now there is a question for you in it, "lee". :laughing7:
:cloud9: I am starting to have a sense of deja vu here also........ :sigh:
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 03:12:04 AM
ron,
i'm asking where in the bible, chapter and verse does it say God grants man repentance and forgivemees of sin AFTER they die, not when they are alive. i know when my sins were forgiven is when i placed my faith in Jesus' sacrifice for the payment for my sins. i believe Jesus went to the cross before there was time rev 13:8, but people have to believe for that to be applied. so please answer my question, where in the bible does God grant repentance and forgiveness of sin After they die?
All are alive unto God.............lk20.38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
cp
claypot,
because you are the ones saying this happens or you would not believe in UR, correct? i'm simply asking you to show me why you believe this.. and to show me from the bible, chapter and verse where God grants man repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die. why is this so difficult for you to do? please show me or let someone else.
is this how you treat people who ask you simple questions about what you believe? why should i believe in UR if you cannot or will not show me? im asking you to do a simple chapter, verse in the bible where God grants man repentance and forgiveness of sins after they die. please i know there has to be somone on this forumthat can provide these exact scriptures.
Ok, from what I believe scripture teaching, from God's standpoint, sin was forgiven on the cross. My believing in Christ does not activate anything of God. God activates me to what he has already done. In other words, my believing in him and repenting is not so that I can get forgiveness of sin applied, but it is in response to the fact that sin has been forgiven by Christ on the cross. The Bible is clear. "I will remember their sin no more," not, "I will tentatively remember their sin no more, in limbo, waiting until they repent."
There is no more sin or consciousness of sin from God's standpoint. That is made very clear in Hebrews chapters 9 and 10. That is why only one sacrifice is needed, and it truly did what it was supposed to.
But here are a few other scriptures which relate specifically, although without revelation you will not believe it.
1)All were in sin at one time, in Adam.
2)When Christ died, all in Adam died with him.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constrains us; because we judge thus, that one died for all, therefore all died.
3)Because all died, the penalty of sin cannot be applied anymore to anyone.
Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
4)Paul said
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
That is everyone, because that event in time, Christ's death, was my death, and your death, everyone in Adam died that day. Notice that together with Christ we have been made alive. But until God opens our eyes to see it, we remain as children of wrath, of the devil. Each, in God's own time, will have his or her eyes open, NOT to be forgiven of sin, for there is no sin to be forgiven of in God's eyes. There is NONE! There is no more dying in your sins AFTER the cross. That is how I understand it. Mankind is only in sin in his own deluded thinking.
Ron
As long as you believe that this thing you do called repentance, and maybe baptism too (it is in the same verse Ac 2:38) activates the forgiveness of God, you will never see that you are asking a bogus question, one that has no bearing on the truth of the matter. As long as you see the "for" there as a requirement instead of a response, we cannot go any further in this, in my opinion.
Ron
ron,
i kinda see what your saying. but for your sin to be forgiven you have to exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice for your sins. just because Christ went to the cross does not give everyone their sins forgiven. for that to be reality you have to believe. but like i said not all people who die are dying believers with their sins forgiven in Christ. that is where my question comes in. where in the bible does God grant repentance and faith for forgiveness of their sin after they die?
Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2009, 03:13:49 AM
I am starting to have a sense of deja vu here also........ :sigh:
It's obvious.
The style and tone are exactly as cog's.
beloved,
why is it when i ask simple questions about the theology you believe in you get offended and attack me? please just answer my simple question. after all this is where the rubber hits the road for your beliefs, correct? I'm just asking you to show me biblically where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies. thats all. no more. no less. why is this so dificult? are these scriptures not in the bible?
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 03:38:18 AM
ron,
i kinda see what your saying. but for your sin to be forgiven you have to exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice for your sins. just because Christ went to the cross does not give everyone their sins forgiven. for that to be reality you have to believe. but like i said not all people who die are dying believers with their sins forgiven in Christ. that is where my question comes in. where in the bible does God grant repentance and faith for forgiveness of their sin after they die?
Ok, I cannot speak for anyone else, but there is no specific verse in scripture which says what you are asking. If you don't mind, I would like to address what you said, and ask some questions about it.
You said that "for that to be reality you have to believe." I agree with that. My question is, who's reality? Your's or God's? I think you know my answer as I gave it earlier. That is important to understand. Also, let me illustrate it this way.
If I were in prison and someone came along and offered to serve my sentence for me, thus setting me free, and they came and opened my prison door and told me that I was free to go; let's say I don't believe them and stay in my prison. Am I free? Or am I still in prison? In my reality, I am in prison. In true reality, I am a free man. All my walking out of the prison (i.e. repentance) does is acknowledge the fact that it is true, that I am truly free. If I stay in prison until the day I die, I will have died a free man. Physically, that would be the end of the story. With God however, it is not.
My other question is, would you then say that Jesus' death only potentially forgave sin? Is there a specific scripture which teaches that?
Ron
That was not an attack, merely an observation.
The tone and style of writing are hauntingly familiar.
No offense intended, nor should be taken.
ron,
i thought so. i can not for the life of me find scripture that supports God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin to poeple after they die. but maybe someone on this forum can show us.
i like your anaology but i believe the person's faith and repentance is the reason why jesus goes in the prison and tells you are free, not just the fact you are there.
yes and no..or maybe. there are scriptures that say he died for His people and the church. but i might be wrong.
repentance n according to salvation is a change in mind that gives a change of action.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 03:21:25 AM
is this how you treat people who ask you simple questions about what you believe? why should i believe in UR if you cannot or will not show me? im asking you to do a simple chapter, verse in the bible where God grants man repentance and forgiveness of sins after they die. please i know there has to be somone on this forumthat can provide these exact scriptures.
The Holy Spirit will someday.
There is no one here who will be able to provide any Scripture that will cause you to see the truth that God loves everyone and that His love will save the same. The answers to my questions would be the answers to yours but you can't even answer them. You are only looking for an argument IMO.
cp
In my analogy, the man cannot repent, meaning, walk out of the prison, until he knows he is free. The repentance, (i.e. walking out of the prison) is the result, not the requirement, for walking as a free man. It is the same with salvation.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 20, 2009, 03:41:00 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2009, 03:13:49 AM
I am starting to have a sense of deja vu here also........ :sigh:
It's obvious.
The style and tone are exactly as cog's.
The more I read of this thread, the more I found myself asking the question; "Does it really matter?".
Should anyone really give a hoot if someone chooses to believe in UR or not?
Like, are we talking here about someone losing out on something critical to his redemption er sumthin?
Hardly likely.
It's all seems so much of a distraction.
I learned a long time ago that those who shout the loudest are oftentimes the most insecure about their beliefs. And I learned too that many of those who become suffocated with their having to dot the i's and t's of doctrines are inadvertently confessing their own spiritual immaturity.
Instead of busying ourselves with the question, "What do you believe?", I think we should be eagerly answering the more important question, "Who is Jesus?".
After all, unless we know who Jesus is, our very Christian experience is put at risk. Without discovering who Jesus is, we cannot possibly obtain an understanding of who we are in Him; and that is the very crux of our born again experience.
Anyways, I feel sorry for those who feel compelled to chase down those who might not agree with the ideas of UR. It's a dog not worth hunting with. Our task is not to expose the darkness. Rather, our task is to be a light which extinguishes the darkness. We are not asked convict people of their waywardness. Rather, we are asked to convince people of their need to know Jesus.
I guess it is all about attitude ... and some attitudes I see here are wanting.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:36:09 AM
claypot,
thanks for your reply. my motive is simple. if i'm going to believe UR to be true i want to see the bible verses that say people are granted repentance and are forgiven of their sins after they die. it is really simple stuff. just show me in the bible where it says this and then i know it to be true and from God and not from man.
First of all, it falls to you to prove that at death is irreversible judgment and Hebrews 9:27 isn't an answer since it's about the High Priest of Israel figuratively dying for Israel each year as their substitute, so also Christ was offered ONCE....etc....
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death
were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (Hebrews 2:14-17 -- those who all of their lifetimes, implying it was past their lifetimes)
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1Corinthians 15:22 -- who are those that are made alive? Those that die in Adam. Those that are dead in Adam. Those that were in Christ when He died are made alive and those that were in Adam when he died are dead -- simple -- Christ is what's called in theology the recapitulation or reheading of ALL things.)
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:1-3 -- dead in trespasses and sins -- now made alive in Christ, and we were no different from the children of disobedience according to this Scripture.)
14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him. (2Samuel 14:14)
May he be blessed of the LORD who has not withdrawn His kindness to the living and to the dead. (Ruth 2:20)
6and he said, "O LORD, the God of our fathers, are You not God in the heavens? And are You not ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand so that no one can stand against You. (2Chronicles 20:6)
4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. (Ezekiel 18:4 -- He bases is ability to punish on the fact that the souls are His rather than not His.)
In Jude 1, Sodom and Gomorrah are put forth as the example of age-lasting fire, and in Ezekiel 16:53-55 we have:
53"Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity,
54in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them.
55"Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state. (Ezekiel 16:53-55)
11"Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, indeed everything that is in the heavens and the earth; Yours is the dominion, O LORD, and You exalt Yourself as head over all.
12"Both riches and honor come from You, and You rule over all, and in Your hand is power and might; and it lies in Your hand to make great and
to strengthen everyone. (1Chronicles 29:11-12)
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." (Revelation 5:13 -- under the earth obviously includes every grave.)
11 " As for you also, Because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. (Zechariah 9:11)
14 " I will ransom them from the power of Hell; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Hell, I will be your destruction!" (Hosea 13:14)
Probably 4 dozen additional passages could be cited on this, but if you're not starting to see by now that perhaps more can be said in it's behalf, Scripturally, than you'd previously considered possible, then citing the rest of them isn't going to make a believer out of you, if your heart's hardened to the Father seeing the fruit of the travail of Christ's soul and being genuinely thoroughly satisfied. He laid on Him the iniquity of us all, and the crime can't be prosecuted additionally after someone was already raised from the dead in absolute proof that it had all already been dealt with!
:cloud9: Why WOULDN'T anyone want to see UR is my question? It's not just good news, it's GREAT NEWS. You have to be OPEN to receive, just as the hands of the High Priest were OPEN and filled with incense before the Most High. An open hand before God means you want HIM to fill it. Fists closed on pet doctrines cannot receive. Blessings.....
I was one of the ones that thought the eternal torment paradigm made perfect sense, Scripturally, philosophically, et. al. So, I understand the process. Even if some folks genuinely SAW IT in the Written Word for themselves, if they've been MARRIED to the other paradigm, it can take a really long time and going thru all 500+ verses about it to be confidently persuaded where you wouldn't emotionally stumble backwards about having slipped into error. It took me about 42 months after having been a spiritual jumping bean over having genuinely SEEN it in the Written Word of God for my mind to have any peace about it that it genuinely is the clear teaching of the Scriptures and many many great and wonderful men of God that have encouraged, inspired, and lead me to Christ in my youth were simply wrong about this particular thing. Doesn't mean every other truth I learned was hogwash. Just means this one thing was in error.
Too true Cardinal.
Quote from: martincisneros on August 20, 2009, 04:57:51 AM
I was one of the ones that thought the eternal torment paradigm made perfect sense, Scripturally, philosophically, et. al. So, I understand the process. Even if some folks genuinely SAW IT in the Written Word for themselves, if they've been MARRIED to the other paradigm, it can take a really long time and going thru all 500+ verses about it to be confidently persuaded where you wouldn't emotionally stumble backwards about having slipped into error. It took me about 42 months after having been a spiritual jumping bean over having genuinely SEEN it in the Written Word of God for my mind to have any peace about it that it genuinely is the clear teaching of the Scriptures and many many great and wonderful men of God that have encouraged, inspired, and lead me to Christ in my youth were simply wrong about this particular thing. Doesn't mean every other truth I learned was hogwash. Just means this one thing was in error.
:cloud9: Yeah, I can see where being taught that all of your walk would do that to you.
I was blessed not to have any previous instruction on any of it prior to God telling me within a few months of finding Him that hell was simply separation from God and that there were many walking around in shoe leather that were separated from Him. That freed me to listen for other momentous explanations not offered in the churches.
martin & cardinal,
martin, all those scriptures you gave. i did not see one that said God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after death. cardinal, UR is great news if you can show me in the bible chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever. God inspired scripture so if He grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies. it should be in there. i'm just simply asking you to show me where it is.
ron,
isnt that what the gospel is all about? when the sinner hears it, he either believes or he don't. the ones who do respond to the gospel are let out of prison and are saved. right? repentance in regards to salvation is changing of ones mind that results in a change of action.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 05:55:55 AM
ron,
isnt that what the gospel is all about? when the sinner hears it, he either believes or he don't. the ones who do respond to the gospel are let out of prison and are saved. right? repentance in regards to salvation is changing of ones mind that results in a change of action.
Thanks for the question you gave here.
I am not the one to be answering it; but I am impatiently awaiting the answer that someone else might volunteer.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 05:40:02 AM
martin & cardinal,
i did not see one that said God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after death. cardinal, UR is great news if you can show me in the bible chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever.
Rom 7:9 For I
was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and
I died. Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I
found to be unto death. Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by
it slew me. Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin,
working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
So here Paul dies,
and then is granted repentance and salvation
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God
through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Oh how surprising, Cog made the "show the exact verse" fallacy too. :bdh:
zeek,
those are awesome scripture, but they don't talk about God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin AFTER someone physically dies.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 06:12:35 AM
zeek,
those are awesome scripture, but they don't talk about God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin AFTER someone physically dies.
think outside the box. who said physical death has anything to do with it. that's just a human with a limited belief system, imposing it on a God where all things are possible.
zeek & paul,
zeek, everyone is going to die sometime. not all die believers, alot die unbelievers. i don't think outside of God's word. so if you can show me in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever, that is what i'm looking for or your exactly right all we would be doing is thinking outside the box and not relying on God's word.
paul, why is it fallacy to ask for proof in the bible, chapter and verse where God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever? fallacy to me would be if you cant show me chapter and verse in the bible. this is where the rubber hits the road for UR and your telling me its a fallacy to show chapter and verse in the bible to prove it?
lee100: you said:
Quotekinda see what your saying. but for your sin to be forgiven you have to exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice for your sins
We read in: Eph 2:8 -
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
This says if God doesn't bestow this upon you, you will not have the "faith" to excercise.
Is there ANY scripture that says He bestows this gift upon you in this life only?
My last question is this: How is this following scripture true if there is no redemption after this life?
Isa 26:9 -
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy
judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants
of the world will learn righteousness
My final comment is this puny man needs to stop trying to limit God to mans level.
Just the last 2 or 3 days i have been floating around the idea that if man does indeed "choose" to go to this fabled hell, then doesn't that give him authority over Gods' desire for all to come to repentance?
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 06:21:47 AM
zeek & paul,
zeek, everyone is going to die sometime. not all die believers, alot die unbelievers. i don't think outside of God's word. so if you can show me in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever, that is what i'm looking for or your exactly right all we would be doing is thinking outside the box and not relying on God's word.
paul, why is it fallacy to ask for proof in the bible, chapter and verse where God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever? fallacy to me would be if you cant show me chapter and verse in the bible. this is where the rubber hits the road for UR and your telling me its a fallacy to show chapter and verse in the bible to prove it?
You engage in the fallacy of expecting a verse to be shown to YOUR satisfaction in the exact manner you ask.
It is not a failure on our part to deliver.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 06:21:47 AM
zeek & paul,
zeek, everyone is going to die sometime. not all die believers, alot die unbelievers. i don't think outside of God's word. so if you can show me in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever, that is what i'm looking for or your exactly right all we would be doing is thinking outside the box and not relying on God's word.
paul, why is it fallacy to ask for proof in the bible, chapter and verse where God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever? fallacy to me would be if you cant show me chapter and verse in the bible. this is where the rubber hits the road for UR and your telling me its a fallacy to show chapter and verse in the bible to prove it?
For me, physical death has nothing to do with any of it. For me, it's all covenental. But; as all have been saying here; you are not ready or willing to receive the verses that touch all of us at the core of our heart. If it's a sin to believe in LOVE never failing; for me and my enemies; then so be it.
lookingup,
Is there ANY scripture that says He bestows this gift upon you in this life only?
right, that is why I'm asking you to give chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and faith after someone dies an unbeliever.
isaiah 26:9 makes sense when you read the next verse 10 where it says the wicked is shown no favor, he does not learn righteousness.
zeek,
all im asking for is to show chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever. i can't seem to find any.
"To stray from or evade the truth is a lie.
peacemaker
paul,
im simply asking you to show me in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin when someone dies an unbeliever. asking the exact chapter and verse is biblically correct. is there any other way? im starting to believe ron that there is no scriptures chapter and verse that claim this because all you have been doing is complaining about the manner i ask you to prove this and none of you have gave me chapter and verse. if God said it, it will be in His word, just show me where it is and we can all say hallelujah, God said it and i believe it.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 06:44:26 AM
paul,
im simply asking you to show me in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin when someone dies an unbeliever. asking the exact chapter and verse is biblically correct. is there any other way?
Yep, declared statements in scripture that align with all of the bible that do not contradict.
If it is not possible for God to deliver a person to the kingdom who dies from this earth in an unrepentant state, then it contradicts scripture that declare what God will do for mankind.
You will only refute that by explaining away scriptures in a way contradictory to your own expectations and ignore the contradiction it raises.
If you do not accept that possibility, then your only here to posture your mocking spirit.
paul,
if God said it, i will believe it. if he said it..show me where He said it in His word. UR theology's foundation is God grants repentance and faith to people after they die an unbeliever. please show me chapter and verse. no more no less. why is this so difficult to do? im here to see in God's word where He grants repentance and forgiveness of sins when someone dies an unbeliever. are you going to show me?
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 06:54:48 AM
paul,
if God said it, i will believe it. if he said it..show me where He said it in His word. UR theology's foundation is God grants repentance and faith to people after they die an unbeliever. please show me chapter and verse. no more no less. why is this so difficult to do?
I answered your previous question with an explanation, do you accept that explanation or not?
paul,
you should be able to give me chapter and verse for God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever for all the other scriptures to not contradict.
You will be tossed to and fro in the sea of humanity, whether in the Lake of Galilee or Lake of fire.
Do you fear the storm, or His Presence?
peacemaker
paul,
are you going to give me chapter and verse. because all this runaround is getting me dizzy. otherwise im going to bed.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:02:29 AM
paul,
you should be able to give me chapter and verse for God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever for all the other scriptures to not contradict.
God promises salvation for all mankind, and I believe it. Do You?
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
You will contradict that verse, or add words to it, or take words away to declare anything else.
Otherwise, you will prove your engaging in the fallacy that I spoke of and I will be done with our conversation in this thread.
Quote from: peacemaker on August 20, 2009, 07:04:45 AM
You will be tossed to and fro in the sea of humanity, whether in the Lake of Galilee or Lake of fire.
Do you fear the storm, or His Presence?
peacemaker
:cloud9: Love that PC.........Blessings.....
paul,
i'm really dizzy from all this runaround. i have made a plain, simple request for chapter and verse to show that God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somone dies an unbeliever. and you and others have not done this. the answer to your question lies in the chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somenone die an unbeliever to support 1Tim 2:4. do you not understand this? this is the hole in UR if you cannot show me chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:16:35 AM
paul,
i'm really dizzy from all this runaround. i have made a plain, simple request for chapter and verse to show that God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somone dies an unbeliever. and you and others have not done this. the answer to your question lies in the chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somenone die an unbeliever to support 1Tim 2:4. do you not understand this? this is the hole in UR if you cannot show me chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever.
it's only a hole, if u place "physical death" as the determining factor.
"Dying in your sins" doesnt' have to imply "physical death". But u insist on it.
:cloud9: This is the hole in UR? Well, CoG/lee, I thought you were here to find out the truth of UR. Seems to me you already had YOUR mind made up before you got here. I'm sure someone will come along to reply in due season. Blessings....
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:16:35 AM
paul,
i'm really dizzy from all this runaround. i have made a plain, simple request for chapter and verse to show that God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somone dies an unbeliever. and you and others have not done this. the answer to your question lies in the chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somenone die an unbeliever to support 1Tim 2:4. do you not understand this? this is the hole in UR if you cannot show me chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever.
Good night Lee.
zeek,
brother, everyone is going to die. they all do not die believers, most die unbelievers. therefore, in order for them to believe, according to UR it happens after they die. again give chapter and verse where this happens.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:24:19 AM
zeek,
brother, everyone is going to die.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:24:19 AM
zeek,
brother, everyone is going to die. they all do not die believers, most die unbelievers. therefore, in order for them to believe, according to UR it happens after they die. again give chapter and verse where this happens.
i already gave u verses that after someone dies they are granted relationship with Lord Jesus Christ. You just want death defined your way, so within your "limited" defined perception; the bible has no verses that talk of your perception of UR
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:16:35 AM
paul,
i'm really dizzy from all this runaround. i have made a plain, simple request for chapter and verse to show that God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somone dies an unbeliever. and you and others have not done this. the answer to your question lies in the chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somenone die an unbeliever to support 1Tim 2:4. do you not understand this? this is the hole in UR if you cannot show me chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever.
I dont think there will be any unbelievers after physical death :2c:
guaranteed
Jesus destroyed DEATH man at the Cross :thumbsup:
Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I tell you the Lord God is more merciful than any one can ever Imagine
and all manner of sins are forgiven
except blaspheming the Holy Spirit ..
zeek,
come on man. seriously. eternally everyone lives. physically everyone will die. 180,000 people die physically everyday.
Cardinal,
i want to believe UR, you guys are not giving me a reason to. i simply asking for chapter and verse of where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sins after they die an unbeliever. maybe tommorrow someone on this forum will give me the chapter and verse.
I have trouble seeing it, too.
It's just not clearly stated.
Not that it bothers me one way or the other because I trust God's justice and mercy.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:31:13 AM
zeek,
come on man. seriously. eternally everyone lives. physically everyone will die. 180,000 people die physically everyday.
Cardinal,
i want to believe UR, you guys are not giving me a reason to. i simply asking for chapter and verse of where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sins after they die an unbeliever. maybe tommorrow someone on this forum will give me the chapter and verse.
that's not what the verse says, believeest in him and NEVER die. Do you believe it?
Quote from: Zeek on August 20, 2009, 07:25:31 AM
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:24:19 AM
zeek,
brother, everyone is going to die.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Yes, but isn't this different from dying in your sins?
1)Never die
2)die in your sins
Two different cases.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:31:13 AM
zeek,
come on man. seriously. eternally everyone lives. physically everyone will die. 180,000 people die physically everyday.
Cardinal,
i want to believe UR, you guys are not giving me a reason to. i simply asking for chapter and verse of where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sins after they die an unbeliever. maybe tommorrow someone on this forum will give me the chapter and verse.
approach it from another angle, and u might be surprised. If u want to believe in UR, drop the "limited belief" of physical death, and believe in a God that nothing is impossible and that he is love, and love never fails. and love dies for anoterh, and Jesus died for his "body/bride", and the "body" also dies for someone, serving as a priest that blesses the nations. We as his body are not in this for our own salvation, but to die for another. Who might that be??
zeek,
right. im asking about all the others who die unbelievers. show me where God grants them repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die. so dizzy from all this runaround. goodnight.
molly, you must believe in Jesus before you die to have that applied my friend. read john 6:47.
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 07:34:50 AM
Quote from: Zeek on August 20, 2009, 07:25:31 AM
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:24:19 AM
zeek,
brother, everyone is going to die.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Yes, but isn't this different from dying in your sins?
1)Never die
2)die in your sins
Two different cases.
those who never die, don't die in their sins. those who don't believe, die in their sins. Destruction through shame.
Well to sin is '' to error ''
do we be forgiven for being in error /flesh
no flesh pleases God so being spiritual /new creature in Christ is clean / without sin /error
all flesh is error/sin ..
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:37:41 AM
zeek,
right. im asking about all the others who die unbelievers. show me where God grants them repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die. so dizzy from all this runaround. goodnight.
zeek, you must believe in Jesus before you die to have that applied my friend. read john 6:47.
how can the be granted repentance ad forgiveness after they die? they're dead
Quote from: Zeek on August 20, 2009, 07:38:37 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 07:34:50 AM
Quote from: Zeek on August 20, 2009, 07:25:31 AM
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:24:19 AM
zeek,
brother, everyone is going to die.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Yes, but isn't this different from dying in your sins?
1)Never die
2)die in your sins
Two different cases.
those who never die, don't die in their sins. those who don't believe, die in their sins. Destruction through shame.
I'm not sure what that means.
You mean they wake up on the other side and feel shame? And, that destroys them? How?
Nobody gets destroyed by shame on this side, at least, not much anymore. They keep doing shameful things without shame.
Sorry, without a scripture, I'm kind of lost.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:37:41 AM
zeek,
right. im asking about all the others who die unbelievers. show me where God grants them repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die. so dizzy from all this runaround. goodnight.
yes, i know; but i'm trying to see if u are open minded enough to approach UR from a different paradigm than your current one, that involves physical death. If that is your only direction, and there are no verses in the bible to say one is granted repentance after physical death; then you will be very discouraged; because your paradigm was not validated; and now u can't believe in LOVE. what a bummer.
consider a new paradigm. (but me thinnks u really aren't into changing your paradigm) because it validates your true belief.
in other words, search for UR to be true;and it will be true.
search for it to be false, and u will find it false.
as a man thinketh, so is he.
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 07:41:47 AM
Quote from: Zeek on August 20, 2009, 07:38:37 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 07:34:50 AM
Quote from: Zeek on August 20, 2009, 07:25:31 AM
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:24:19 AM
zeek,
brother, everyone is going to die.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Yes, but isn't this different from dying in your sins?
1)Never die
2)die in your sins
Two different cases.
those who never die, don't die in their sins. those who don't believe, die in their sins. Destruction through shame.
I'm not sure what that means.
Nobody gets destroyed by shame on this side, at least, not much anymore. They keep doing shameful things without shame.
how do u know that?? Is that really true?? Can u absolutely know that that is true.
1Pe 4:1 ¶ Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick/alive and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Quote from: rosered on August 20, 2009, 07:40:08 AM
Well to sin is " to error "
do we be forgiven for being in error /flesh
no flesh pleases God so being spiritual /new creature in Christ is clean / without sin /error
all flesh is error/sin ..
I think the flesh of Christ pleased God, don't you? While he was alive.
And, he was resurrected in the flesh, or so he showed Thomas.
But, now I'm thinking he died in our sins and was resurrected pure--so...hmmm....
He didn't want Mary to touch him before he ascended...
This makes my head hurt lol.
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 07:47:06 AM
Quote from: rosered on August 20, 2009, 07:40:08 AM
Well to sin is " to error "
do we be forgiven for being in error /flesh
no flesh pleases God so being spiritual /new creature in Christ is clean / without sin /error
all flesh is error/sin ..
I think the flesh of Christ pleased God, don't you? While he was alive.
And, he was resurrected in the flesh, or so he showed Thomas.
But, now I'm thinking he died in our sins and was resurrected pure--so...hmmm....
He didn't want Mary to touch him before he ascended...
This makes my head hurt lol.
Jesus flesh /veil made the WAY TRUTH AND LIFE for us all , not one can brag we done a thing its all God and Jesus is our praise and glory sis
:HeartThrob:
Hbr 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Quote from: rosered on August 20, 2009, 07:46:41 AM
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick/alive and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
That's interesting.
So does that say that we will not be judged according to the flesh by the one who judges?
But, those who are dead in their sins are judged according to the flesh?
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honour and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
Psalm 139 (Amplified Bible)
5 You have beset me and shut me in--behind and before, and You have laid Your hand upon me.
6 Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it.
7 Where could I go from Your Spirit? Or where could I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol (the place of the dead), behold, You are there.
Quote from: Zeek on August 20, 2009, 07:54:32 AM
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honour and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
That sounds pretty inclusive, assuming 'under the earth' means all the dead.
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 07:53:14 AM
Quote from: rosered on August 20, 2009, 07:46:41 AM
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick/alive and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
That's interesting.
So does that say that we will not be judged according to the flesh by the one who judges?
But, those who are dead in their sins are judged according to the flesh?
Hi Sis , I do believe that when Jesus told them /us
that we all judge after the flesh it being our carnal minds that do such things , but we should know that all flesh is condemened already in Adam all die , this being the man of dust who God cursed the ground for his sake
none shall boast in his flesh , we all can only thank and praise God fror Jesus Christ who saves us all !! :HeartThrob:
Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Jhn 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. Jhn 8:16 And
yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Jesus always knows of what spirit we are of at all times :thumbsup:
Quote from: Zeek on August 20, 2009, 07:54:32 AM
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honour and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: amen ZEEK ! We keep our eyes on Him!!! :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 20, 2009, 07:56:52 AM
Psalm 139 (Amplified Bible)
5 You have beset me and shut me in--behind and before, and You have laid Your hand upon me.
6 Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it.
7 Where could I go from Your Spirit? Or where could I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol (the place of the dead), behold, You are there.
I know that's true for David and I feel it's true for me, but is it true for everyone? He sent Cain away, out of his presence.
This is a special case--set apart, hedged in, under his wing:
5 You have beset me and shut me in--behind and before, and You have laid Your hand upon me.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 20, 2009, 07:56:52 AM
Psalm 139 (Amplified Bible)
5 You have beset me and shut me in--behind and before, and You have laid Your hand upon me.
6 Your [infinite] knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high above me, I cannot reach it.
7 Where could I go from Your Spirit? Or where could I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol (the place of the dead), behold, You are there.
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: awesome Beloved servant !! !!! THANKING JESUS right now big time!! glory to His name !
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders,
stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. :HeartThrob:
I feel it's true for everyone.
There are only two men: Adam and Christ.
And Christ redeemed all.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 20, 2009, 08:04:52 AM
I feel it's true for everyone.
There are only two men: Adam and Christ.
And Christ redeemed all.
I also see that simplicity in Christ as well :HeartThrob:!
GOD will be all in all as planned
no matter how much of our fleshy minds kick and scream against it !!! :mblush:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 20, 2009, 08:04:52 AM
I feel it's true for everyone.
There are only two men: Adam and Christ.
And Christ redeemed all.
I see that a little differently since I did make my bed in sheol, the grave, hell, amongst the dead--and he was there. So I see it as applying to this life.
Two men yes, and all made alive in Christ, yes--but then what? That's the problem.
Because we still have two different classes, don't we? Those who never die, and those who die in their sins (and are judged according to the flesh?)
I probably shouldn't think about these things...
One point not answered by lee100 is the other side of the coin. There is certainly nothing that says God does not work acceptable repentance after death, that He does not change both the wicked and the just beyond this life. I would want such a serious thing clearly stated in the word to believe it. I notice there has been no Scripture quoted to back up that assumption of evil from the traditions of men.
Most of what I wrote here was posted elsewhere in tentmaker forums. Some of it is new. I tried to be somewhat complete, but who knows? Perhaps later I'll add something about the 2nd death. Death in all its forms will be abolished! That is the clear word of God. I could quote the early creeds and explain the importance the early church attached to Jesus going to hell while dead and preaching good news to the rest of the dead. It definitely is in Scripture which the following should make clear. I had titled it:
_________________________________
"Death Does Not Determine Destiny"
Jesus is not a two-faced schizophrenic, one way with some people and another with the rest. Some have tried to make Him that way by falsely teaching God has multiple thrones. Paul says it doesn't even matter if they are of the original apostles, God is no respecter or persons. (cp. Ga 2:6) "For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living." (Rm 14:9, CLT) A little later (vs.11) it says, "...For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!" Obviously, if that doesn't happen during our short sojourn in this veil of corruptible flesh it must happen beyond. "Every tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord! (cp., Php 2:10-11) I believe Scripture when it says, "...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Co 12:3, AV) God's word is also quite clear that: "...if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved." (Rm 10:9, CLT) Surely those raised from the dead and standing before a resurrected immortal and glorified Jesus will believe He is raised from the dead! This is tracing what the Scripture speaks concerning certain matters beyond the life in this body of humiliation. The Holy Scripture never says that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God Who cannot die. It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die. Nothing says our death stops God's works. If it did it could not be true that, "...the day of death [is better] than the day of one's birth. (Ec 7:1)
Something Jesus did say was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (John 11:25-26) He could've used an adjective to indicate He was referring merely to "spiritual" life and death; but, He didn't! Don't add words to explain away what He said. Meditate on it. In that place He also indicated victory over death by going on to say, "And, everyone living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this?"
After Jesus died on the cross Peter says He preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of Noah. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient (no longer disobedient means their prison was working), when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Pet 3:18-20, AV) It is definitely taught by God's own word that: "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6, AV)
In the book of Jonah in the Bible it says after Jonah died and went to hell he prayed and God saved him. Men made up the idea that God loves you until you die. The gospel is "Christ died for our sins" and the Bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept Him." That others would benefit from faith in the gospel we do what we can to get them to believe. (cf., 2 Cor 5:18-20 AV) "Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice...I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple." (Jonah 2:1-2, 6-7, AV)
The verse fragment, "...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..." (Heb 9:27, AV) is what people use to supposedly back up the idea that once you die it's too late to come to faith. Whatever it means, it certainly does not in any way say such a thing and it doesn't seem possible to make it even infer it. This passage is in the midst of the following larger quote giving it a context: "...yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest. And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after (altternatively, "with") this a judging, thus Christ also, being offered once for the bearing of the sins of many, will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, for salvation, through faith." (Heb 9:26B-28, CLV) In the context, which I quoted, Christ is presented as our judgment for sin. An interesting cross reference here is, "For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7, AV) The word "freed" isn't in the original. It has "justified," which means to be declared right as a result of a judicial investigation. The judgment for sin according to the Bible is death. This corresponds with rendering Heb 9:27, "With this the judgment..." which may be even more supported by pointing out the Greek word meta in this phrase is translated "with" 346 times compared to "after" only 95 times by the Authorized Version.
Some say I believe in a second chance. I tell them I don't believe in a first chance. God isn't doing this by chance. It's not just a clever rebuttal. "...according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." (Eph 1:10, AV) "God is working together the all..." is the beginning of Rom 8:28. Wouldn't someone even by chance, that is, by accident choose the right way if it was up to us? Scripture says, "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Rom 3:12, AV) This is because all are under "the law of sin unto death" from which only Christ makes us free. Do you realize the promise to not be hurt of the second death is to the Overcomer? (cf., Rev 2:11) I think there is suffering beyond this life. A lot of "Christians" are going to be very surprised. There is no two ways about it: some through the fire, some escaping it; no! "Everyone will be salted with fire..." (Mk 9:49) is Jesus' word. Our God is a consuming fire. Fire is not an attribute of His wrath, but an aspect of His nature. He leads as a pillar of fire. He speaks out of the fire. Our Father is fire. He is forming this Royal Priesthood. We are flames of living fire. God says, "And the fire, it will be testing each one's work -- what kind it is." (1 Co 3:13, CLV) He also says, "Neither shall there be any more pain." (Rev 21:4, AV) To know that God is like this should flood our hearts with joy! But men's traditions have set aside this and many other things written. I believe in every word, even every letter of Scripture, including each of the various things that translators have pasted the word hell over. I have searched various nooks and crannies of the word, going over some of it with the proverbial fine tooth comb, and compared it to what men have said. Which would you have me choose to believe?
It seems that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the first resurrection will yet be, at least for a while, somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2) Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these. "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace. This lack is applied in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumsied, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc. "...to reproach for eonian repulsion" is how the Concordant Literal renders the phrase. Not being overcomers, not in sufficient likeness or similitude of God they are not quite free. They are still subject. This is understandable considering the massive powers of immortal beings in the image of God.
Salvation is from the law of both sin and death by the higher law of life in Christ producing both righteousness and victory over death. "...for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death. " (Rom 8:2, CLV) Salvation is partaking of the Divine nature, being conformed to the image and likeness of God, spirit, soul and body, not merely a better location in death, however true that may be too. Nothing in the Bible says God's saving work is limited to this life, or that it ceases when somebody dies. All it takes to prove this wrong is to quote a verse that says something like that. Much more those who know God expect to continue being developed in His image, whether through life, death, even resurrection and ascension. The purpose of God will not be thwarted. It is to make man in His image and likeness and that they would have universal dominion. It is a corporate image, male and female, and a corporate dominion. This is the destiny of every man. Death will not stop it. All hurtle toward God's, "Universal convocation." (Hb 12:23) God's gifts and servants are to cause us to attain to, "...the realization of the son of God, into The Perfect Man, the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ep 4:13) This is our destiny, we who have first believed in Christ, who are of, "The ecclesia of the firstborn, registered in the heavens." (Hb 12:23) And, "...if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy..." (Rm 11:16)
We ought to meditate on what is written that is clear and easy to understand: "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6 AV)
your brother, James Rohde
Quote from: Reformer"For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living." (Rm 14:9,
OH wow.
Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.But, Jesus, because of what he did on the cross, is the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Beautiful post, Reformer--it's a lot to digest.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:37:41 AM
zeek,
right. im asking about all the others who die unbelievers. show me where God grants them repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die.
Show us where He specifically doesn't. If you can't, then the most you can say is that you're making an argument from silence/ ignorance (a logical fallacy). Just because something is not stated in a specific way doesn't mean that the opposite is automatically true. If I were to say; if you don't hurry up, you will not get to the bank before it closes, would you automatically assume that I meant you would
never get to the bank before it closed? You are automatically assuming, without contextual supporting data, that because Jesus told a certain specific group of people under specific circumstances that if they did not do a certain thing that they would die in their sins; that this not only applies in the same way to everyone, everywhere and for all time, but also that they will always remain in that state. Yet elsewhere, believers are told
they were once dead in sins and trespasses. So clearly, being dead in your sins is a state that can occur regardless of one's state of physical life, and (what's more) is a state that is also clearly reversible.
The simple fact is that there isn't a verse that states what you're asking for precisely the way you do, partly because the way you state it is flawed anyway. As many have pointed out, forgiveness of sin has already occurred. Repentance is simply a change of mind. There are many verses that point to the gist of what we're saying quite clearly. Many of these have been given to you here and elsewhere, but you choose to ignore them and/ or their implications and harp on the same pointless thing over and over. The only one giving any "runaround" here is you, Aaron (a.k.a. CoG/lee), or whatever you will call yourself next after your current ISP is also banned.
There is a definition of insanity that is stated: Doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. Good luck with that.
To Whom It May Concern: (Lee100.cog)
If we confound worldly with righteous sorrow, taking a Pelagic (pertaining to the open sea) view of human nature, we may indeed ascribe true repentance to the unaided workings of the natural heart.
"True repentance will voice itself to Him for sin not judged, cannot abide the blaze of His Glory."
You will find the answer in the whole of His Word, not in a selected verse to accommodate your own preconceived thoughts of limited atonement and hell. A total disregard for the Reconciliation of All things. However, go ahead and maintain that condescending superiority, if you prefer. But consider that no liar shall have the power to instruct or teach that of any another.
"Ever learning but unable to come to the truth."
Although, the day is coming when you will awake from sleep, and will also be taught what is right/true with the rest of humanity.
HIS WORD is SPIRIT, not FLESHLY thinking.
peacemaker
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 03:55:55 AM
ron,
i thought so. i can not for the life of me find scripture that supports God granting repentance and forgiveness of sin to poeple after they die. but maybe someone on this forum can show us.
Let me start with saying I can give you a verse that plainly states that.
Now you show me a verse that after death there is no way to repent. Or that repenting has become useless after death.
I far from understand everything written in the Bible. So I have to find a way to learn the most important things first.
The framework. The foundation. Working from outlines toward details.
You may or may not have noticed the verses in my signature. I quoted them below. They are my favorite verses. And for me they are the framework to read/understand the Bible. Of course we can start a debate on the meaning of the words in the verses. Fine. But that also means every word you quote will de reviewed the same way.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 .... God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved....
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....
The way I see the three verses is that they reinforce eachother. Especially Romans 4:5 is extremely powerful.
"declares" => we are not asked for any input/work. It is declared.
"ungodly" => I guess that is a good word for sinner/unconverted/etc
"righteous" => the ticket to heaven so to speak.
I think/hope we can agree many/most people don't die as good Christians. I even think the standard ET number of only 5% are true Christians may be correct.
So now it looks God is a complete failure. He spoke/inspired the 3 quoted verses with great certainty but it has a fail rate of 95%. Unless..... death is not the end of the conversion process.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 05:55:55 AM
ron,
isnt that what the gospel is all about? when the sinner hears it, he either believes or he don't. the ones who do respond to the gospel are let out of prison and are saved. right? repentance in regards to salvation is changing of ones mind that results in a change of action.
Who did put the sinner in prison? -> disobedience to God is sin.
Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Who sets the prisoner free? -> Father draws/drags the sinner out of prison.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
So basicly we do not just respond. We are forced to respond...
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 06:32:31 AM
lookingup,
Is there ANY scripture that says He bestows this gift upon you in this life only?
right, that is why I'm asking you to give chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and faith after someone dies an unbeliever.
Be a man and answer a direct question.
Where is the verse that states there is NO possibility of repentance after death?
If both sides can't answer the questions perhaps it just means the verse (pro and con) do not exist.
So we have to look for indirect proof.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:16:35 AM
the answer to your question lies in the chapter and verse in the bible where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after somenone die an unbeliever
This is starting to get trollish.
Quoteto support 1Tim 2:4. do you not understand this? this is the hole in UR if you cannot show me chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever.
It's not a hole in UR. It's you that doesn't accept a verse. If God tells you something do you reply with "prove it to me with another verse!" Or do you answer "Can you please explain the concept with another verse so I can understand."
The point is that there are no contradictions in the Bible. If you find one a translation error slipped in or you just don't understand.
It's getting more and more clear to me you (and COG) have very little understanding or urge to understand the Bible.
Sometimes a verse is very hard to understand. It can be read in different ways. Surely you can keep askinfg the same question over and over because you feel secure in your old knowledge. But don't expect any progress.
At a certain point people start to ignore your question. Surely for you it means you debunked UR. But did you really debunk UR or just showed your inability to process new information?
Just as an example not in the Bible. Jesus rode on an animal. But from the verses in Luke you can't figure out it was a horse, mule or elephant. Then you can keep staring at that verse for 10 years and still don't have the answer. Another more productive way is to look for similar verses in Mark. And if Mark shows it was a mule you found your answer regarding the problem in Luke.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:37:41 AM
zeek,
right. im asking about all the others who die unbelievers. show me where God grants them repentance and forgiveness of sin after they die. so dizzy from all this runaround. goodnight.
molly, you must believe in Jesus before you die to have that applied my friend. read john 6:47.
John 6:47 'Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during;
Yes you have it aplied before death.
But that only applies to the age.
It doesn't state it can or can not be applied after that age.
Read a verse for what it says. Don't add extra words/conclusions to it.
The verse simply doesn't say anything about things past the age.
KJV
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this
mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles
be come in.
Rom 11:26 : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them,
when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:28
As concerning the gospel,
they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the
election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are
without repentance. I believe this answers the question of dead body on earth being made right/ cleaned/ sins forgiven after they died over 2009 years ago.
When it says All it means All after we Gentiles are come in, "IMO" INTO CHRIST
Lee Damboise
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 05:40:02 AM
martin & cardinal,
martin, all those scriptures you gave. i did not see one that said God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after death. cardinal, UR is great news if you can show me in the bible chapter and verse where God grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies an unbeliever. God inspired scripture so if He grants repentance and forgiveness of sin after someone dies. it should be in there. i'm just simply asking you to show me where it is.
lee, all those scriptures you gave. i did not see one that said God allows people to go to hell forever.lee, ET is horrible (great to you though right?) news if you can show me in the bible chapter and verse where God allows someone to experience eternal hell. God inspired scripture so if He grants eternal hell after someone dies, it should be in there. i'm just simply asking you to show me where it is.
cp
lee, Jesus does not live by the chapter and verse method you need. If you want Jesus then you must read the whole of Scripture with the Holy Spirit as your guide.
Where does it say clearly that God grants salvation after one dies, you ask?
In the WHOLE of Scripture. I see it clearly. Look in the first 3 chapters of Genesis and it is so very clear there, you can't miss it. Look in Exodus, wow, a perfectly clear statement that would answer your questions in a perfectly clear way. All the way through Revelations.
Read your Bible, don't turn to us or those around you for Jesus. Go to Jesus Himself, via the Holy Spirit, and you will find your answers.
Come to us here on this forum only if you want fellowship. Don't be false with us in attitude or whatever. We are all imperfect in Adam as you are and perfect as you are in Christ. His work is perfect.
cp
I am not the other Lee, I have been a UR person for about 10 years.
there is no hell as the churches teach.
I do not believe that any separation(sin) from God exist, after death was destroyed 2009 years ago. or so.
the other lee i was hoping would read this and "get" some answers.
I have been Lee Damboise II for a very long time on this site
Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 20, 2009, 03:08:44 PM
I am not the other Lee, I have been a UR person for about 10 years.
there is no hell as the churches teach.
I do not believe that any separation(sin) from God exist, after death was destroyed 2009 years ago. or so.
the other lee i was hoping would read this and "get" some answers.
I have been Lee Damboise II for a very long time on this site
Are you directing this to me Lee? If so, I fully understand who you are compared to lee with a small 'l' so don't worry, I am not confusing you two.
cp
This is Good
Lee Damboise II
Hi cp.
Don't let CoG, Lee take away your peace! You always sounded like a vessel of love. I'm off-line for 1 week and you have become a vessel wrath... :winkgrin:
Quote from: claypot on August 20, 2009, 03:02:58 PM
lee, Jesus does not live by the chapter and verse method you need. If you want Jesus then you must read the whole of Scripture with the Holy Spirit as your guide.
I never met HS. I'm not denying He can/will be of great help. But I would like to add common sense goes a long way too. (Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us
reason together, saith the LORD:)
Just read verse the way they are written. Don't add or remove parts of a verse. Try to keep doctrine out.
There are still many mysteries in teh Bible for me. But at least my 'read what it says' approach doesn't cause contradictions I have explain away.
Whitewing, I truely pray that you use non-toxic bibles like the CLV AND OTHERS
Lee Damboise II
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 03:30:17 PM
Hi cp.
Don't let CoG, Lee take away your peace! You always sounded like a vessel of love. I'm off-line for 1 week and you have become a vessel wrath... :winkgrin:
I hear ya WW and thanks for watching out for me. I needed to hear your words. Everyone has buttons, that when pushed, bring out all kinds of things, good and bad. cog, I personally don't blame cog, but the cogster pushed some buttons. I told my wife that if she loved me she would cut the computer cord. ha ha ha
I will heed your words and I hear ya on the HS too. I just think if God is, then there is the Spirit (God) who works via our common sense and other areas. Too mysterious for me.
Thanks again WW.
cp
WW has a good point and I am not saying the Holy Spirit does not guide us, but we do not need to play with scripture in that way with others.
1 Timothy 2:4 says what it says. Lee/COG says that He needs the Chapter and Verse for what He asks and that in and of itself is not "wrong" to ask.
If a person puts together that God saves same of mankind and some of mankind will be in hell it contradicts 1 Timothy 2:4. For LEE/COG to say otherwise He will have to violate his own conditions that He has placed on us here.
So believing that after we die from this earth there is no forgivness or repentance available still contradicts 1 Timothy 2:4.
I can put Lee's inquiry to rest that we cannot show a chapter and a Verse that reads as He specifically expects, this does not prevent the bible from containing that message.
That said, so far I have not seen someone like LEE /COG be able to present the totality of their own beliefs without contradicting themselves and violating the terms of their own expectations of others.
LEE/COG writes.
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 07:37:41 AM
you must believe in Jesus before you die to have that applied my friend. read john 6:47.
Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
This verse absolutely does not say "You must believe in Jesus before you die to have that applied" in any translation but yet, LEE/COG gave this verse to read after saying that.
So the fallacy of his own expectations has been proven.
Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 20, 2009, 03:48:01 PM
Whitewing, I truely pray that you use non-toxic bibles like the CLV AND OTHERS
Lee Damboise II
Hi LD2 :laughing7:
I use KJV because Strongs is linked to it (in the software I use)
Others:
- YLT
- Rotherham
- ISA2
- Bullinger/Companion Bible
- Brenton LXX
- Plus some more
My guess is you replied because I wrote:
QuoteJust read verse the way they are written
But also read in the same message
Quotedoesn't cause contradictions I have explain away.
Toxic Bibles do require me to explain things away...
Quote from: claypot on August 20, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
I told my wife that if she loved me she would cut the computer cord. ha ha ha
You are still on-line :pointlaugh:
QuoteI just think if God is, then there is the Spirit (God) who works via our common sense and other areas.
Could be true. I can't really know/verify if (all) my thoughts are really formed by the chemical process in my head...
Lee Damboise II
Also believes that the bible is written like to two different groups, i.e. all new testaments writings are addressed to/ and written to certain peoples, the people under the law and not under the law, most of paul's writings are addressed to "His" new gospel people. From Acts 28:28 to Philemon.
And I believe that only these messages apply to the new gospel found in Grace, all other pertain to Law abiding people "sinners" and If you are not a follower of "their" 640 Laws, then you are and never have been a sinner, or a transgressor of laws that have never applied to gentles.
of course this is my own system of salvation, thoughts, and understanding.
sinfree@gmx.com
Lee Damboise II
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 20, 2009, 04:03:48 PM
I can put Lee's inquiry to rest that we cannot show a chapter and a Verse that reads as He specifically expects, this does not prevent the bible from containing that message.
I think it would be best for Lee/CoG just for 2 weeks blindly accept the answers He gets to his questions.
That gives a broader overview of UR. Then after those 2 weeks look critically at the answers.
Do the answers contradict? Ask explanations.
But when 10 answers form a none contradicting story you may have found some truth.
If a verse is totally different explained in UR as it is in ET it just means the explanation is different.
In my opinion things works like this. (over simplified) Some verses are very vague. (ignore for a while)
Other verses can be explained in 1 or 2 ways. Keep those answers in mind.
Then start to combine the verses as consistant story. If a certain verse doesn't fit then use the other possible meaning.
You will get tens of thousands combinations. But only one combination fits.
The Bible is just like a huge padlock that doesn't use a key put numbers. I don't know how it's called in English. We call it a number lock. Each wheel with numbers represent the possible interpretation of a verse.
When the lock opens you interpretated all verses correctly. You cracked the Bible code without using the sledge hammer approach taht many use...
:cloud9: EXCELLENT reFORMer........ :thumbsup: Blessings.....
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 01:57:57 AM
Hey guys,
In my quest to find truth of UR, i rely on the bible only. i don't rely on extra-bible books or commentaries from other people. How do we know those people are Holy Spirit inspired? you don't. so what it really comes down to in my mind is can you show biblical proof of sins being forgiven and repentance after someone dies? I know people die in their sins everyday. 180,000 people die everyday worldwide. I have seen the scriptures 1Cor3:15 and phil2:10 and romans 5;18 and all the others(very good scriptures) but where does it say they will repent and be forgiven if they die in their sins? So, that being the case , if someone die s in thier sins where in the bible does it say they will come to repentance and be forgiven? thanks guys.
Dear Lee100,
Look at Revelation. Please take note in Revelation that Christ is still reighning, there are still sovereignties, authorities and powers in force and death has not yet been abolished. Yet the apostle Paul sees beyond John's Revelation when he prophecies:
(22) "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (23) Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" (24) thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father,
whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." (25)
For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. (26)
The last enemy is being abolished: death. (27) For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." (28) Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 CLV
In Revelation where it is stated "death shall be no more (Rev.21:4)" this is only for those IN the New City Jerusalem. We know death is still in operation on the new earth after that statement for in Revelation 21:8 it talks about those put into death.
So Paul indeed sees death, the second death being abolished AFTER Christ quits reigning and AFTER all sovereignties, authorities and powers are annulled.
These people will then have God All in all of them.
Tony
:cloud9: That is an excellent point Tony; never saw that before. THANK YOU. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 04:13:24 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 20, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
I told my wife that if she loved me she would cut the computer cord. ha ha ha
You are still on-line :pointlaugh:
QuoteI just think if God is, then there is the Spirit (God) who works via our common sense and other areas.
Could be true. I can't really know/verify if (all) my thoughts are really formed by the chemical process in my head...
I'm on my computer at work!!!! But you got a point, she didn't cut the cord at home! Hmmmmmmm. Now, on top of cogs stuff, now you got me wondering if my wife really loves me!!!! What a day!
cp
Good stuff Tony!!!!!
cp
I'm bored.
Where is leecog when you need him, her or it?
Just kidding gang.
cp
Just rent a early Sam Raimi movie. Considering the plot it might be an alias for CoG :winkgrin:
1981 was absolutely his best year :icon_jokercolor:
I just ran across this at the Evangelical Universalist site, and thought it would be appropriate to paste it here:
I thought I'd put forth the rhetorical logic of St. Paul's address to the philosophers of the Mars Hill forum in Athens (aka the Areopagus; Acts 17:16-34). (I mentioned this in the body of my document critiquing Professor De Young's critique of The Shack, but I don't see that I've posted it anywhere more obviously online yet.)
Paul is saying that he has come to proclaim to them new knowledge, not about "strange demons" (as some of the philosophers had wondered, being unable to quite cipher out what Paul was talking about in the marketplaces), but about "the Unknowable God" whom they are already willing to acknowledge (along with all the other idols collected in the city).
The emphasis here, for our purposes, is on St. Paul's rhetorical use of "all". Consider the developing line of thought:
1.) This God makes the world (kosmos, all natural creation) and all that is in it.
2.) He gives life and breath (or maybe spirit) to all.
3.) He makes every nation of humankind, to be dwelling on every surface of the earth.
4.) He does this (and appoints the setting of the seasons and the bounds of their dwelling, probably referring to death in the latter case) for them (i.e. all of them) to be seeking Him if they consequently grope for Him.
5.) And they may be finding Him, for to be sure He inheres "not far from each one of us"; for in Him we live and move and exist. (Thus it isn't like they have to grope for something far off).
6.) Condoning (literally "winking at") times of ignorance, God is now charging mankind that all everywhere are to repent.
7.) For He assigns a day in which He is about to be judging (all) the inhabited earth in righteousness...
8.) ... offering faith to all.
Unfortunately, at this point St. Paul mentions that God will be doing this by "the Man whom He specifies, raising him of the dead"; which leads to jeering and a breakdown of his presentation. (Though some are willing to hear him again on this, and some converts are eventually made, one being Dionysius the Areopagite--traditionally believed to be the first bishop of Athens--and a woman named Damaris.)
The grammatic thrust of those last two points are connected: a day is coming when God will be judging the earth in righteousness and (per the grammar) in that judgment He shall be offering faith to all: the same 'all' St. Paul has been collectively talking about throughout his speech.
This, to say the least, is not what most non-universalists are expecting from the judgment of the Final Day. It could of course still be consonant with some Arminian soteriologies--C. S. Lewis would have no problem with it--but at the very least the grammar indicates what amounts to a post-mortem (and post resurrection) offer of 'saving faith' at the final judgment.
It might be rather more than merely giving people a chance to 'believe', too: God is offering faith. That's an action of God, something does for us from the inside--an action restricted only to the 'elect' in Calvinism. But the faith God is offering is God's own faithfulness; the faithfulness of the Persons for one another, but also the faithfulness of God to us.
As St. Paul writes in his epistle to the Romans: does the unfaithfulness of sinners to God, annul the faithfulness of God? May it never be!! God is faithful to us even when we are unfaithful to Him.
posted by Jason Pratt.
People, This is only My thinking.
New Haven and New Earth. i.e. All things, earth/all things made from atoms of God's making, man, plant, rock, air, space, and all other things you can list.
First thing is not to think of Revelation as the last book in the bible, because Cor, goes much further into the future than any book of Revelation.
If you want a comprehensive study in that book, look up J.P. Eby at Sigler Ministries.
Now as to the here and now/ after life.
The promise was that The Anointing would DO certain things, and He Has Done Those Things...
2009 years ago the father raised His Son out of death, and Finished all Death, since then all things have been in life, all made alive in Christ. There is no more sin, the only sin is the sin that you make of your own Law Making and the following of those Laws and the braking of those self-made laws. We are LIVING IN CHRIST'S THOUSAND YEAR REIGNS NOW. It started when death was destroyed 2009 years ago.
Revelation of God ( Matt. 16:18 "upon") is the New System of things, When all things come to an understanding that a higher power controls things, "They" start there own quest to understand.
God is like this to me in the physical things, in all things there are atoms, in all things there are 2 things, sold and space, but there is an unseen third thing, energy. This energy is in everything. In every corner of the known universe and beyond. This energy is connected like a thought process in a brain. His Brain.
There is a process going on that will bring a close to the reign of Jesus "His" Christ, When all will be IN all. When all things are dragged to the understanding that God IS and God IS Love. Then We will be Home in Him and what goes on after All is, together again is HIS concern. After life? there can never be an afterlife because the use of the word says that life has to end, and life IN God never ends. What God does with His life/us, is His design.
Summery, All sin is ended at the cross, only self-reinforced-delusions i.e. Law/sin/death.
Everyone will come to love God somehow-somewhere in "time", When time ends, there will only be God/us.
The new heavens and earth is NOW. Since life was given to all things when His Son Did It For Us whether or not we want to except that death was destroyed so long ago.
Lee Damboise II
Lee, would you quit posting that same page? I'm sorry but I keep thinking something new is posted and now I've seen your post about 6 times. We'll get the message if you just post it once in the appropriate thread.
You da man!
cp
Will do, thanks, I just wanted the other lee guy to talk,
Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 21, 2009, 10:03:04 PM
Will do, thanks, I just wanted the other lee guy to talk,
:cloud9: I could be wrong, but somehow I don't think that will be a problem for awhile......... :winkgrin: Welcome to the Tent........Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on August 22, 2009, 12:29:45 AM
Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 21, 2009, 10:03:04 PM
Will do, thanks, I just wanted the other lee guy to talk,
:cloud9: I could be wrong, but somehow I don't think that will be a problem for awhile......... :winkgrin:
Did the crew install a firewall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall)? :bottlebump:
:cloud9: Not that I'm aware of, but I do like that new model you're displaying there. :laughing7: Blessings....
willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:
This guy is a LIAR, one way or the other... to begin with he starts this thread saying that he DOESN'T quote anyone, and in several places,
THAT is all he does!
He says he adheres strictly and ONLY to the Scriptures, but NEVER quotes them, only blabs his own (or someone elses) words... :thumbdown:
Pay him no mind... He and his words are tainted...
His PURPOSED disrespect of brother CLAYPOT, is evidence of who "he" IS and what "he" represents...
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:25:13 AM
doc,
oops an honest mistake..im not the greatest speller but sorry to disappoint you im just lee.
Blatantly lying...
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to type the word CLAYPOT...
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Being I noticed my 'label' here, and I thank you, Willie, for, what I feel, is a protective arm around me.................I have a couple thoughts about coglee....
First of all I have a bit of a suspicion that coglee does not care about God and Scripture one way or another. I think it's possible it just came on to cause havoc and maybe start something that would grow and fester and cause major harm. I guess like a virus. I think it's possible it came to plant a virus and leave.
This leads to my second thought. I think what coglee did was good in the sense it stirred up the pot a bit, got some dust off the shelves, and caused us to see some things anew. I know in some ways it did wonders for me. I mean it. I am conversing with a few of my 'ET' friends with a new energy and patience and, hopefully, love, than I have for a long time.
cp
:cloud9: I think it comes down to this. Cog/lee probably thought that everyone on this board had just stumbled in here, and read enough to be "contaminated". He did not realize that if the new member posts alone are any indication, nearly without exception including myself, the Holy Spirit revealed Him as the Savior of all, before ever coming on this site.
Most seem to have come here to find strength in numbers, comfort that they indeed did hear the Lord, and a haven where they can grow in understanding without the servants of religion carting them off to Haman's gallows for what they perceive (and rightly so) as a threat to their never ending kingdom of fear-mongering to gain numbers for personal gain/spirit of Core. If this site "contaminates", may it "contaminate" Cog/lee, with the Truth of His Word and His love for all. Blessings...
Amen to that...cardinal :icon_king:
Right, Cardinal! And I know that the deepest teachers I've encountered understand the nature of the true God Who will have all mankind to be saved as part of their foundation. There can't be very much of a house built for His Presence without a true foundation. I am seeking fellowship, not only of like minds, but with those that are more accurately adjusted to the Truth, so that the revelation of God in which we delight, might be more abundantly manifest. I love God and I love to be around those who are letting more of Him through. Right now I feel some kind of ongoing soft explosion...
Quote from: claypot on August 20, 2009, 06:04:53 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 04:13:24 PM
Quote from: claypot on August 20, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
I told my wife that if she loved me she would cut the computer cord. ha ha ha
You are still on-line :pointlaugh:
QuoteI just think if God is, then there is the Spirit (God) who works via our common sense and other areas.
Could be true. I can't really know/verify if (all) my thoughts are really formed by the chemical process in my head...
I'm on my computer at work!!!! But you got a point, she didn't cut the cord at home! Hmmmmmmm. Now, on top of cogs stuff, now you got me wondering if my wife really loves me!!!! What a day!
cp
Sorry, I 'm off topic but you got me thinking of a joke I saw on the net... My Living Will..
"Last night my sister and I were sitting in the den and I said to her, 'I never want to live in a vegetative state, dependent on some machine and fluids from a bottle to keep me alive. That would be no quality of life at all. If that ever happens, just pull the plug.'
So she got up, unplugged the computer, and threw out my wine."
:laughing7:
Paul
Luckily Claypot is filled with water :laughing7:
But someday Jesus stops by and turns it into wine.
That will be the day Claypot stops posting.
:beach:
Quote from: reFORMer on August 23, 2009, 07:59:20 AM
Right, Cardinal! And I know that the deepest teachers I've encountered understand the nature of the true God Who will have all mankind to be saved as part of their foundation. There can't be very much of a house built for His Presence without a true foundation. I am seeking fellowship, not only of like minds, but with those that are more accurately adjusted to the Truth, so that the revelation of God in which we delight, might be more abundantly manifest. I love God and I love to be around those who are letting more of Him through. Right now I feel some kind of ongoing soft explosion...
:cloud9: I know what you mean reFORMer........there is definitely something going on in the Spirit right now.........Blessings....
Quote from: Pierac on August 23, 2009, 08:10:34 AM
Sorry, I 'm off topic but you got me thinking of a joke I saw on the net... My Living Will..
"Last night my sister and I were sitting in the den and I said to her, 'I never want to live in a vegetative state, dependent on some machine and fluids from a bottle to keep me alive. That would be no quality of life at all. If that ever happens, just pull the plug.'
So she got up, unplugged the computer, and threw out my wine."
:laughing7:
Paul
:cloud9: Good one, Paul! :grin: :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quoteron,
i kinda see what your saying. but for your sin to be forgiven you have to exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice for your sins. just because Christ went to the cross does not give everyone their sins forgiven. for that to be reality you have to believe. but like i said not all people who die are dying believers with their sins forgiven in Christ. that is where my question comes in. where in the bible does God grant repentance and faith for forgiveness of their sin after they die?
read first and second Peter. It clearly shows those who died "in their sins" in the flood at the time of Noah, who were kept in spiritual prisons till after the crucifixtion of our Lord on the cross , was preached to by Jesus after He was crucified and went into to spiritual prisons and He preached to them about "His shed blood and how it was shed for the sins of the world". Which by the way included theirs.
Hi! 333
Your observation is incredibly enlightened.
Now we know what the condition was of those who existed before the arrival of Jesus and the preaching of His Gospel. All these people went to the realm of death, to Sheol, the righteous as well as the unrighteous, the believers as well as the unbelievers. The rich man was there, but also Abraham and Lazarus the beggar, although there was a deep gulf between them.
Among the righteous in Sheol, however, there were. also those who during their lives had looked forward to the 'testimony' they had received from God. Abel comes to mind, a man who must have thought about the forgiveness of his sins and reached the conclusion that this could only be brought about by the shedding of blood. Also Abraham, who sought an unseen city, built on the foundation of faith, whose builder and maker is God. The prophets also searched and inquired who these spiritual people might be, which the Spirit in them was speaking of.
All these godly inclined people would reach the final purpose of their faith, that is the salvation of their souls, (lPet 1:9,10), and would be the first to take up their place in the heavenly paradise. These saints were taken out of Sheol at the resurrection of Jesus and replanted in the garden of God.
After their inner men, that is with their spiritual bodies, these saints were in Sheol, the realm of the dead. They were raised, that is, they received a sign that the time had come to rise and start a new period of life. After Jesus' resurrection they left Sheol and went to 'the holy city' which, according to Revelation 2:12, is the New Jerusalem. Here they appeared to many. Being inhabitants of the New Jerusalem these saints manifested themselves on earth in a resurrection body in the same way Jesus did, "And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many".
There is yet a second occasion similar to this event spoken of in the Book of Revelation 22:14,15, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates".
Hades, the realm of the dead, contains these two primary groups (among others):
Those of the Old Covenant who were not transferred to the heavenly paradise when Jesus rose from the dead, although they had served God; and those who never had the opportunity to know the true God and never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, yet did righteousness and sought for good.
John saw how the dead of all ages, except those who shared in the first resurrection and those who were transplanted into the heavenly paradise, now rise from Hades. Then it is fulfilled: "The hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment", (John 5:28-29). Daniel said this about the second resurrection: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt", (Dan 12:2). The verse speaks of 'many', not of 'all', for many dead were to share in the first resurrection and never see death. (John 8:51).
Revelation 22:14,15 is speaking about the righteous of all ages who have not reached spiritual maturity as yet.Their robes have been washed and are righteous and they recorded in the Book of Life. For that reason they are entitled to the leaves of the trees of life for healing, that they may be blessed, perfectly saved, and complete. These also share in the glory of the New Jerusalem.
Thanks it helps my thread
after reading the whole things here, I almost cry what happen to claypot, lee100 pushing further and further and cause darkness by forcing people "where the verse that said God grant forgiven after they die" over and over and over
He firmly believe it's up to God, not us
This feeling I get from lee100 is he want UR to fail and only his belief in God is the right way
There nothing to convince lee100 where that chapter said but maybe if I can help out if the holy spirit guide me to help out lee100
maybe this the verse:
"The fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide," that is, if his works are holy, "he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn," that is, if his works are faulty and imperfect, "he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."[I. Cor. iii. 13-15.]
But I don't think you want to read this as a "answer", because the truth is, I don't understand how you can stand by and support a creator who knew what we going to do
however, if you confess Jesus is lord, and called on the name of Jesus, you will be saved
I think I might have found the answer:
"Every knees shall confess Jesus is lord"
The only way to confess Jesus is lord, only by the holy spirit, do you think this is God's ultimate plan to put word in the mouth of all sinners, included Satan (think holy spirit would go inside satan's body and make him confess, sure!) will be saved, maybe this is God's last plan, to make people said, automated saved
However, lee100, I only sense that you do not want "love" but "justice", That's how I sense it from you, you want prove and cold-hard truth, only the holy spirit can do that
lee100, would you desire to save all in hell
there was story of God will get all of them out of hell by the prayer in heaven in peter revelation but sadly, it was discharged as gnostic book.
However, all I can see is you saying all the time:
"I don't care what you said, it's up to God, not me"
This is why it's so dangerous, if God ask you to kill a child in front of millions, would you do it, because God said so, or look in your heart where God really is and ask yourself this: "Why would God test me to kill a child in ront of millions, what the point, even I passed the test and knowing God won't let me kill a child by holding my arm like abramham did, but in front of million, what is the point, to push me for test of faith?! He doesn't trust me because I am not enough?! Why..I don't get it, why?!"
If your heart said: "Don't show people this kind of faith, they going to get the wrong ideas"
or the god told you to kill a child: "Don't test me, don't question me, just do it, if you can't do it, you are not worthy of my servent, be gone!'
which God would you choose?
I think I know your answer and it still gruesome to me.
Quote from: IceDash on September 21, 2009, 01:20:04 PM
after reading the whole things here, I almost cry what happen to claypot, lee100 pushing further and further and cause darkness by forcing people "where the verse that said God grant forgiven after they die" over and over and over
Somehow I don't think lee/cog/tc/... didn't succeed. I even think s/he reached the opposite.
QuoteHowever, lee100, I only sense that you do not want "love" but "justice", That's how I sense it from you, you want prove and cold-hard truth, only the holy spirit can do that
iD,
Read the parable of the workman. Some worked a whole day (good Christians whole their life). Some just one hour (converted the last hour of their life of in the after life). But all got the same payment. (eternal life)
I think many ETs are workmen that worked all day.... They just can't except that others get payed just as much as they receive.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2009, 01:34:14 PM
Quote from: IceDash on September 21, 2009, 01:20:04 PM
after reading the whole things here, I almost cry what happen to claypot, lee100 pushing further and further and cause darkness by forcing people "where the verse that said God grant forgiven after they die" over and over and over
Somehow I don't think lee/cog/tc/... didn't succeed. I even think s/he reached the opposite.
QuoteHowever, lee100, I only sense that you do not want "love" but "justice", That's how I sense it from you, you want prove and cold-hard truth, only the holy spirit can do that
iD,
Read the parable of the workman. Some worked a whole day (good Christians whole their life). Some just one hour (converted the last hour of their life of in the after life). But all got the same payment. (eternal life)
I think many ETs are workmen that worked all day.... They just can't except that others get payed just as much as they receive.
I know about that too, It just pain me to see someone fell over and got hurt and only mock and mock while someone is hurting
I have a passion for someone who is hurt because this is so wrong.