My name is TAF- TheAuthenticFan, First I have read that Many verses
Used to Teach Universalism are Taken Directly Out of Context and Misinterpreted to teach Universalism, and those verses really do NOT teach Universalism, that the Universalists "Read into" those verses to suit their Theology of Universalism, and these so-called "Universalist" verses must be taken in regards to the Clear Teaching of Eternal Hellfire Verses, In such books as
"All Dogs go to Heaven, don't they" by R. Maurice Smith and "Universalism NOT of the Bible" by N.D. George, available at Amazon.com, and Probably many others that Refute Universalism
The Debate over Whether the Bible teaches Eternal Torment or Universalism is
TOO COMPLEX to ever be Solved, NO ONE has Proven for Certain that the Bible teaches all Humans will Ever be Saved, No one knows, The Bible is Far too complex, and Hopelessly Contradicts Itself, it is Impossible to Prove Eternal Torment or Universalism, simply impossible
Don't get me Wrong, I want MOST Humans and Non-Christians to eventually be in Heaven,
My 5th grade teacher, Mrs. Feldman, she is fully Jewish, VERY nice woman, but Rejects Christ,
She is in her 80's , I don't want her to "Burn in Hell"
Some Christians have said "Universalism is a FALSE DOCTRINE, a FALSE GOSPEL, it's of Demons"
And some have said "The Universalists think they have it Right and the Whole Church has got it Wrong" Could all those Christian Experts be Wrong ,
And the Greek Word "Aion" even if it doesn't always mean Endless in Duration
One Greek Word, wheter it means an "Age" or Endless in Duration, or Both, or Varies,
That does NOT Proove if Universalism is True or NOT, will Satan and his Demons be Saved
I truly do
Welcome TAF. :)
The answer is in knowing the Father. Have you ever had Him speak to you? When you know His voice it becomes much easier to know the truth about "ET" vs "UR". He IS Love. :)
Blessings.
Hi TAF,
Maybe you make the Bible to complex.
If you read verses/words the UR way the Bible isn't easy but not extremly complex.
OTOH if someone 'wants' to see teh Bible teaching ET it gets difficult. Contradictions need to be explained away by complex scholary approaches. That gets complex.
QuoteUsed to Teach Universalism are Taken Directly Out of Context and Misinterpreted to teach Universalism,
Are you currently a bit more open than before, to the possibilty that UR is Biblical?
:hithere:
There are only three possibilities when it comes to salvation:
First: that none will be saved
Second: that some will be saved
Third: that all will be saved
Since it is clear that you believe in God, the none possibility is eliminated.
If you already understand the Bible in the context of eternal torment, now study it in the context of Universal Reconciliation.
Give it to God and let Him explain it.
Quote from: lomarah on August 23, 2012, 07:04:39 AM
Welcome TAF. :)
The answer is in knowing the Father. Have you ever had Him speak to you? When you know His voice it becomes much easier to know the truth about "ET" vs "UR". He IS Love. :)
Blessings.
Amen! If you know the Fathers heart you know the truth. While I believe there is strong evidence of UR from the original languages...that isn't what convinced me. It was revelation through relationship.
Quote from: shawn on August 23, 2012, 09:37:45 AM
Quote from: lomarah on August 23, 2012, 07:04:39 AM
Welcome TAF. :)
The answer is in knowing the Father. Have you ever had Him speak to you? When you know His voice it becomes much easier to know the truth about "ET" vs "UR". He IS Love. :)
Blessings.
Amen! If you know the Fathers heart you know the truth. While I believe there is strong evidence of UR from the original languages...that isn't what convinced me. It was revelation through relationship.
Yes Amen!
Also: the truth sets us free. (So says our Lord. :smile:) Does the knowledge that God is freeing all from their sin set you free, or the belief that He will allow some to be tortured forever? Does the knowledge that He really IS a loving Father (to ALL) set you free? I can't tell you how that knowledge finally set me free. And He is freeing me more and more every day. He is so much more amazing then we know... He really is our true heart's desire. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
I don't agree that it isn't solvable or too complex to know for certain. For now, it's too much for me to write out in detail, all the more for someone whose reception or response is unknown.
You must also remember God's purpose is to make us in His image and likeness. That means, not only like the Inquisition of the past, but in the ages to come, you too must become a Master Torturer. As one who is told to be an imitator of God, as his own dear child, how does that jive with your conscience?
WOW! GOOD POINT!
Many have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
I was Baptised in a Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did Martin Luther accept Universalism,
And this Modern "Debate" over Universalism, is it an OBSESSION,
When did the Modern "Debate" Begin, What about the Anti-UR Arguments on the website
GotQuestions.org
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
Many have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
I was Baptised in a Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did Martin Luther accept Universalism,
And this Modern "Debate" over Universalism, is it an OBSESSION,
When did the Modern "Debate" Begin, What about the Anti-UR Arguments on the website
GotQuestions.org
So you base your belief systems off of trite colloquialisms and whether or not Martin Luther accepts UR understanding? Any questions gotquestion.org has on their site, I'm sure we have seen before. I would recommend using the search function to see if the question has been answered on the site.
I suppose my next question would be are you a true seeker, or are you here to argue ET?
And I just took a look at gotanswers...and as soon as I seen the argument that the only way to the Father is through Jesus, and that is why UR is false...then I know the author is misinformed about UR teaching. Debating misinformation gets tiresome. As for "eternal"...there are plenty of posts addressing that topic.
There are many strong Scriptures that support UR but the one the hit home the most for me was...Revelations 21...specifically 21:25. When you understand what Jesus was talking about with the word Gehenna (trash dump outside the city gates...translated into hell)...then you begin to see what is happening.
23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
Why would the gates never be shut? Gehenna (hell) is just outside the gates. If all of those who will ever be saved are already in the Holy City, why keep the gates open? Also, look up Lake of fire, sulfur symbolism on this site. You will begin to get an even fuller picture of what happens in the Lake of Fire...and what actually dies.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
Many have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
So if the Bible speaks about terror is very likely true.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AMMany have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
But still nobody seems to be able to refute it.
Claims like heresy, satanic lie, to good to be true, wishfull thinking, strawman arguments, etc. aren't refutations of the UR view on the Good Tidings Jesus brought to mankind.
Quote from: shawn on August 24, 2012, 01:24:32 AM
And I just took a look at gotanswers...and as soon as I seen the argument that the only way to the Father is through Jesus, and that is why UR is false...then I know the author is misinformed about UR teaching.
Shawn, obviously I can't be 100% sure but my guess is they very well know they are lying.
They set up a strawman argument. "UR people don't believe/trust/need/etc" Jesus; therefore they can't be Christians."
That's an easy approach. Many advesatries of UR claim to know much about it. But somehow they overlooked UR people are as much Christ centered as, say, protestants.
QuoteDebating misinformation gets tiresome. As for "eternal"...there are plenty of posts addressing that topic.
There are many strong Scriptures that support UR but the one the hit home the most for me was...Revelations 21...specifically 21:25. When you understand what Jesus was talking about with the word Gehenna (trash dump outside the city gates...translated into hell)...then you begin to see what is happening.
23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
Why would the gates never be shut? Gehenna (hell) is just outside the gates. If all of those who will ever be saved are already in the Holy City, why keep the gates open? Also, look up Lake of fire, sulfur symbolism on this site. You will begin to get an even fuller picture of what happens in the Lake of Fire...and what actually dies.
How about the gentile/pagan/ no good/doomed kings entering New Jerusalem to honor Jesus and bring their nation with them?
:-)
All very good points WW.
So, are you saying that when people whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life
are Cast into the Lake of Fire, are those Un-saved in the Lake for Endless Duration being
Tormented or do they eventually exit the Lake of Fire and enter Heaven or the New Earth
What about the "Narrow Gate" Mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels, doesn't that Proove Very Few will be Saved, And Also the Article on the Internet- Look it up
Hybrid Universalism Refuted Bible.ca
Again I would offer the search function. I don't mean to sound abrupt, just we get the same questions over and over again...same points. Everything you have asked has been answered somewhere on this site.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 05:13:36 AM
So, are you saying that when people whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life
No nobody was saying that. We answered other questions.
Does your silence mean you agree, or simply you question without really wanting an answer?
Quote.... And Also the Article on the Internet- Look it up
I will if you read the OT.
Then you will find what blotted out really means and how long it lasts.
Blotting out is God ordained Jewish custom.
They even blotted out Jesus.
IMO, these are really good responses that have already been shared. :gthumbsup:
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
Many have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
Human reasoning, which is usually not necessarily in accord with God's.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
I was Baptised in a Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did Martin Luther accept Universalism,
One way to look at it, it doesn't really matter who did or didn't believe in UR. Technically, every man on earth could be wrong about something, but in the final analysis, it's what does God think and plan about something? That said, Luther had this to say; "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
TAF, hi. I can't speak for other believers in Christ who are also UR believers, but I'd suggest that even though very important, to not get so distracted by -
the Lake of Fire not being punitive but corrective,
God's work continues into the next ages, not just this age,
when Jesus supposedly "talked about hell" so much, he was often talking about upcoming punishment of the Jews in 70 AD (which occurred),
that all that's evil in us will be spiritually burned away, etc.,
to the point of forgetting that whether in this age or the next, every knee will still bow and confess Jesus as Lord. And that it's still the work of redemption Jesus did on the cross, and that it's His blood that cleanses from unrighteousness and sin and belief upon Him as Savior that saves us.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 05:13:36 AM
So, are you saying that when people whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life
are Cast into the Lake of Fire, are those Un-saved in the Lake for Endless Duration being
Tormented or do they eventually exit the Lake of Fire and enter Heaven or the New Earth
What about the "Narrow Gate" Mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels, doesn't that Proove Very Few will be Saved, And Also the Article on the Internet- Look it up
Hybrid Universalism Refuted Bible.ca
Separate the man from the beast of sin and it is the beast of sin that is cast into the lake of fire, not the man
Quote from: jugghead on August 24, 2012, 11:37:55 AM
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 05:13:36 AM
So, are you saying that when people whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life
are Cast into the Lake of Fire, are those Un-saved in the Lake for Endless Duration being
Tormented or do they eventually exit the Lake of Fire and enter Heaven or the New Earth
What about the "Narrow Gate" Mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels, doesn't that Proove Very Few will be Saved, And Also the Article on the Internet- Look it up
Hybrid Universalism Refuted Bible.ca
Separate the man from the beast of sin and it is the beast of sin that is cast into the lake of fire, not the man
Amen. And we will all walk through the fires of purification...either now or later. But, we each have our own time.
God brings us the easiest way we'll come.
1 Cor 3;15 " If anyone's work shall be burnt up he shall suffer loss,
but shall himself be saved, though thus as through fire."
Quote from: reFORMer on August 24, 2012, 04:24:30 PM
God brings us the easiest way we'll come.
:cloud9: :goodpost:
Quote from: jabcat on August 24, 2012, 10:02:32 AM
IMO, these are really good responses that have already been shared. :gthumbsup:
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
Many have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
Human reasoning, which is usually not necessarily in accord with God's.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
I was Baptised in a Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did Martin Luther accept Universalism,
One way to look at it, it doesn't really matter who did or didn't believe in UR. Technically, every man on earth could be wrong about something, but in the final analysis, it's what does God think and plan about something? That said, Luther had this to say; "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
Jab, I think that quote was a bit mistranslated.
It would be quite a different question whether God can impart faith to some in the hour of death or after death so that these people could be saved through faith. Who would doubt God's ability to do that? (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
However, after having said this, he continues to say that
No one, however, can prove that He does do this. (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
Martin Luther was basically discussing the revealed and hidden things of God. I believe ML felt that it was impossible to know by God's revealed word if He was willing to impart faith after death. But, he was unwilling to rule it out. He later talks about the discussion of such things being of profit to those who are mature in the faith, but could be detrimental to those young in the faith...a doctrine of reserves kind of mentality.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
Many have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
As WW said, this is not really a good argument. It can be turned around on the other side:
Eternal torment is "too good to be true". Where else do you get to proclaim yourself saved in blissful eternity while knowing your enemies suffer forever
because heck, they deserve it.
From this view we know eternal cannot be true (aside from being "too good to be true")
because Jesus taught us to LOVE our enemies.
Quote from: shawn on August 25, 2012, 12:12:01 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 24, 2012, 10:02:32 AM
IMO, these are really good responses that have already been shared. :gthumbsup:
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
Many have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
If Universalism is True, it seems "too good to be True" and if something seems
"too good to be True" It Probably is, and Universalism is thus, False,
Human reasoning, which is usually not necessarily in accord with God's.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 24, 2012, 12:05:01 AM
I was Baptised in a Lutheran Church earlier this year-2012, Did Martin Luther accept Universalism,
One way to look at it, it doesn't really matter who did or didn't believe in UR. Technically, every man on earth could be wrong about something, but in the final analysis, it's what does God think and plan about something? That said, Luther had this to say; "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
Jab, I think that quote was a bit mistranslated.
It would be quite a different question whether God can impart faith to some in the hour of death or after death so that these people could be saved through faith. Who would doubt God's ability to do that? (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
However, after having said this, he continues to say that
No one, however, can prove that He does do this. (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
Martin Luther was basically discussing the revealed and hidden things of God. I believe ML felt that it was impossible to know by God's revealed word if He was willing to impart faith after death. But, he was unwilling to rule it out. He later talks about the discussion of such things being of profit to those who are mature in the faith, but could be detrimental to those young in the faith...a doctrine of reserves kind of mentality.
Yeah, thanks, I haven't dug into it too much, sounds more complicated. I had heard about the quote and pulled it off an article here;
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/martin_luther_universalist.html&sa=U&ei=6bI3UNe1E9L1qAGyg4HQDQ&ved=0CAcQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNG7I2Q_Mz6M-9cqDdpNG7DTvAi2eg
For the sake of the TAF question, I'd guess we both agree though that it matters very little what Martin Luther believed about it anyway. What does God "believe"! :thumbsup:
I would certainly agree with that last sentiment. It matters little to me what ML believed. What I do know is that there are historical accounts of ML being heavily involved in the persecution of several groups including the Anabaptists...over the baptism of babies none the less. It amazes me that some cling fast to doctrines set forth by men who have murdered brothers in Christ over doctrinal minutia.
We do some crazy stuff, don't we? Thank God for His love and mercy.
As I understand it after studying it for 43 years now, it falls into two categories:
ET'ers believe that if one doesn't surrender their life to the lordship of Jesus before the end of this mortal life, they will be tortured for all eternity. Case Closed.
UR'ers believe that the end of this mortal life is NOT the end and that all will eventually come to the Lord Jesus in love, gratitude and thankfulness - rather than a "forced" confession when "every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father"
There is no glory to the Father if this bowed knee confession is forced in any way.
If one day can be as a thousand years.
If thousand years can be as one day.
1 Day = 1000. years
1 hour = 41 and ½ years
1 Second = 253 days
In the Olympics they measure down to the one, one hundredths of a second .
The one, one hundredth of a second, or call it the twinkling of an eye.
The twinkling of an eye is 2 and ½ days long .
Plenty of time for an alter call.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 28, 2012, 08:12:59 PM
If one day can be as a thousand years.
If thousand years can be as one day.
1 Day = 1000. years
1 hour = 41 and ½ years
1 Second = 253 days
In the Olympics they measure down to the one, one hundredths of a second .
The one, one hundredth of a second, or call it the twinkling of an eye.
The twinkling of an eye is 2 and ½ days long .
Plenty of time for an alter call.
Love the breakdown dajomaco, awesome.
As for universalism being to good to be true, therefore it is false, is that not an assumption in underestimating the power of God? One statement I believe to be truth is this, assumption is the mother of all screw-ups, which I believe screw-ups are just another way to say "interpretation" or "translation".
My two cents
Of course universal salvation sounds too good to be true.
God's love is infinite and surpasses all understanding of man.
The actual quote is "if something sounds too good to be true then it PROBABLY is.
God's love is also improbable
I say that Sadly, have you read the Anti-Universalist books
"All Dogs go to Heaven, don't they" by R.Maurice Smith
and "Universalism NOT of the Bible" by N.D. George, both on Amazon.com,
Bible verse taken directly OUT OF CONTEXT are often Twisted and Distorted and Misinterpreted to Teach
Universalism, I wish Universalism was True, But the Bible is TOO COMPLEX to Properly Interpret
and tell which is True, Universalism or Eternal Torment,
Did anyone see the Book "Universal Salvation: The Current Debate" on Amazon.com
Where St. Paul in the New Testament says "God will be all in all"
All in All is Merely a Figure of Speech, and in NO WAY hints or even Suggests that all Humans will be Saved,
I do NOT want Satan the Devil or his Demons to be in Heaven the Afterlife, will Satan be saved, I hope not
I'm a Lutheran Christian, For the Life of me,
I can't Imagine in my Mind a Literal, Visible Second Coming of Christ,
Even a Billion with a B, years from Now, sure I believe in Christ,
But I just Cannot Picture in my Mind Jesus EVER Returning to Earth, I am Skeptical about the Second Coming
I can't Imagine in my Mind a Literal, Visible Second Coming of Christ,
Sounds to me like your Spirit is awake and looking for food.
Try imagining your Spirit being fed by the Holy Spirit.
Just imagine you have a spirit and it is yours alone,
and imagine there is a Holy Spirit that feeds your spirit.
Imagine that the actual feeding occurs while you are thinking
about the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 31, 2012, 10:52:19 PM
Where St. Paul in the New Testament says "God will be all in all"
All in All is Merely a Figure of Speech, and in NO WAY hints or even Suggests that all Humans will be Saved,
I do NOT want Satan the Devil or his Demons to be in Heaven the Afterlife, will Satan be saved, I hope not
What part of "all" do you not understand, besides the "a" and two "l's"?
If what Paul wrote was a figure of speech, he would have written something along the lines of "God will seem to be all in all", or "It is as if God will be all in all"...He may have even employed metaphor or simile.
But that's not what he wrote, is it?
As far as not wanting to see Satan and the demons reconciled, I would suggest two things. First, get to know what "Satan" really is according to scripture. Second, check yourself. If you (or any of us, for that matter) "deserve" a place in the restitution of all things, then every living thing does.
It has nothing to do what
we do. It has everything to do with what
He did.
Once you understand that basic premise, you will understand all that you are not seeing, here and now.
And, guess what? That will happen in
His time.
Its also understood here that if anyone or anything is "saved," according to the Scriptural category of doctrine called "Soteriology," it means they are changed, they are transformed. For instance, if Chairman Mao, who was responsible for five times as many murders as Hitler, Stalin and Lenin combined, if he was to be saved, it wouldn't be as the horrible monster that he was. He would have a new name and a new nature by means of God's Holy Spirit. Biblical Salvation is not preserving the sinner in his sin.
A persistent error of many who believe in ceaseless torture for ever is that such a state results from God's wrath toward us. Hence, salvation according to them means we are saved from God. They teach salvation is from being tortured ceaselessly for ever. The topic of our transformation into the image and likeness of God is not even brought up in this scheme. True Biblical Salvation is from sin and its result, which includes sickness and death. Salvation ultimately results in incorruptible immortality.
Quote from: reFORMer on September 01, 2012, 09:02:37 AM
Its also understood here that if anyone or anything is "saved," it means they are changed, they are transformed.... would have a new name and a new nature by means of God's Holy Spirit.
:2thumbs:
Quote from: reFORMer on September 01, 2012, 09:02:37 AMFor instance, if Chairman Mao, who was responsible for five times as many murders as Hitler, Stalin and Lenin combined, if he was to be saved, it wouldn't be as the horrible monster that he was.
Exactly. Paul is a great example of that.
Paul converted people to Christianity instead of the old Paul, called Saul, who's mission was to kill Christians.
Will Paul enter heaven? I'm sure all Christians will answer that question with "yes".
What if Paul remained Saul (the Christian killer) until his death? Meaning he wouldn't be an Apostle but just a maniac Jew with a sword. Would he enter heaven?
The only difference between both examples is that the Light converted Saul into Paul.
I would to like to say that the reason I believe that MOST people except for the one that deny Christ completely after they have found the truth about Him; will go to heaven. So I do believe in a hell. But the reason I believe that those who do not know the truth still go to heaven. It is because I look at where Jesus said" father forgive them for they know not what they do. This tell me that these soldiers did not know Jesus. Yet He still forgave them. They didn't know He was the Christ until after He died. Just as people in the world do not know the truth or can't comprehend it. I believe these people will be saved.
Hi All,
I have read this thread and was thinking about why people believe in ET, when we didn't have any choice as to being born.
God didn't ask our permission that Christ die for us.
God gave us only 70 years to get it right, so say most religions.
we have no absolute positive proof that what we think we know is the truth.
God allowed all of these different denominations and beliefs so that we couldn't know the whole truth. We humans would brag and get all puffed up if we knew it all.
If God is a fair and honest God and has any kind of love for his children and if he was going to torment some of them forever...
Why didn't he give us a perfect map for us to follow.
Why didn't he give us a perfect Bible with no mistakes and no contridictions?
Why didn't he give us more time to get it right?
Why didn't he teach us personally? Only he knows it all.
If the wages of sin is death, what exactly is ET for? If ET is true why isn't Jesus being tormented for anyone?
What does it take to pay for the debt of ET?
What does one have to do to avoid ET?
Some will say repent and except Christ but it plainly says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess".
Just a few of the things that came to mind while reading all this.
CHB
I think when someone first seeks to live their life in faith, they have to find a faith, tradition, philosophy, that speaks truth to their heart. Something that resonates as true enough to give their life to, their sense of self, their personal identity. And from there have that bolster the relationship they have evolved with their sense of self and their own morality.
I think if you can make a very good argument for why in your opinion universalism is not credible, then you should find something else to believe in. Because no matter the religion, faith, tradition or philosophy, there are going to be proponents and opponents. Those that can tell you why something holds merit and those who will just as passionately argue why that is not true.
And since you're here at our discussion forum, perhaps you might consider reading the articles made available at Tentmaker.org.
Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism (http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html)
(Doctrine of Inclusion, Ultimate Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Apokatastis, Apocatastasis, Universal Redemption, The Larger Hope, The Greater Faith, The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul's Gospel, Glorious Gospel, Universal Restoration, Universalism, Victorious Gospel, No-Heller, Universal Reconciliation)
By Gary AmiraultAnd,
"Bible Matters" (Article #7 is very good imo) (http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/bible-index.htm)
In fairness, a Fundamentalist or Evangelical Christian could read that article and find fault with it. They could make valid Biblical arguments that it's content and points are simply not true.
As a matter of personal truth however, I think the seeker, which sounds like yourself, if they choose to read it, have to arrive at their own conclusion. Does it feel real? Does it sound true? Does a God of love exist within that philosophy? Does a God of love create a paradigm of eternal torment or universal repentance? Which one would best reflect what you can accept as God who is love to the very core of it's being?
What other people "say" about Universalism it may be said, is that what is proffered by those who are not Universalists. So when one first ascertains what those people who are saying those things believe in themselves, they may realize where their critique is coming from. Especially if what they give their life to in faith is a philosophy that in itself would be diametrically opposite of Universalist teaching.
So much of religion is arrived at, especially in holy writ, from 'what people said' long generations ago. What is the covenant, in my opinion, that makes faith a way of life rather than a religion adopted for one's living, is what the spirit of the faith communicates to you personally.
May God bless your journey,
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on August 23, 2012, 06:11:29 AM
My name is TAF- TheAuthenticFan, First I have read that Many verses
Used to Teach Universalism are Taken Directly Out of Context and Misinterpreted to teach Universalism, and those verses really do NOT teach Universalism, that the Universalists "Read into" those verses to suit their Theology of Universalism, and these so-called "Universalist" verses must be taken in regards to the Clear Teaching of Eternal Hellfire Verses, In such books as
"All Dogs go to Heaven, don't they" by R. Maurice Smith and "Universalism NOT of the Bible" by N.D. George, available at Amazon.com, and Probably many others that Refute Universalism
The Debate over Whether the Bible teaches Eternal Torment or Universalism is
TOO COMPLEX to ever be Solved, NO ONE has Proven for Certain that the Bible teaches all Humans will Ever be Saved, No one knows, The Bible is Far too complex, and Hopelessly Contradicts Itself, it is Impossible to Prove Eternal Torment or Universalism, simply impossible
Don't get me Wrong, I want MOST Humans and Non-Christians to eventually be in Heaven,
My 5th grade teacher, Mrs. Feldman, she is fully Jewish, VERY nice woman, but Rejects Christ,
She is in her 80's , I don't want her to "Burn in Hell"
Some Christians have said "Universalism is a FALSE DOCTRINE, a FALSE GOSPEL, it's of Demons"
And some have said "The Universalists think they have it Right and the Whole Church has got it Wrong" Could all those Christian Experts be Wrong ,
And the Greek Word "Aion" even if it doesn't always mean Endless in Duration
One Greek Word, wheter it means an "Age" or Endless in Duration, or Both, or Varies,
That does NOT Proove if Universalism is True or NOT, will Satan and his Demons be Saved
If there is and eternal torment ,when would Gods anger ever end.
What about Hebrews 9:27, that Verse is Used often to show
that Universalism is FALSE, that there are no Second Chances After Death to Repent and Accept Christ, that once a person dies without Christ all hope is lost for them
Where St. Paul says God will be "All in All" again "All in All" is just a Figure of Speech and in No way even Suggests Everyone will be Saved, all humans will be Saved,
At Beast Universal Salvation for every single Human Being is a Remote Possibility, Only God Knows for Certain, will Satan the Devil and his Demons be Saved, Can Satan Repent, Does God love Satan
If "all in all" is a figure of speech why Hebrews 9:27 isn't a figure of speech?
I think the first thing you should do is figure out what judgement is.
Does an earthly judge has just 2 rulings? Death or freedom?
Read the OT where David asks God to judge him.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on October 11, 2012, 08:18:16 PM
Universal Salvation for every single Human Being is a Remote Possibility, Only God Knows for Certain, will Satan the Devil and his Demons be Saved, Can Satan Repent, Does God love Satan
Remote posibility??? Yes, Satan will be saved and I am sure God loves him since he created him. (2Cor. 5:18) And ALL THINGS are of God.
(Col. 1:16) For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisable, {this includes Satan}.
CHB
In the very beggining of this forum, one of the aswers was along the lines of, the better you know and understand God,
the more you'll see UR. It's true.
Age 17, I became a Baptist. Told to "witness" to others, I became very uneasy with the "knowledge" that my sister, brother, friends, wonderful parents, friends, and classmates would all be going to hell. Eternal torture for those that had never heard, had been raped, or murdered, born blind or deaf, starved to death, were aborted or retarded. - God made them all and says he loves them all.
I couldn't rationalize pointless torture lasting longer than a person had even been alive - not even from a cruel and heartless "God"
In love with us, God descended and rescued us and saved us from what we were unable to save ourselves from.
The only way any/all of us can be reconciled to God is through Christ.
Some are brought to him in this lifetime, most will not even hear the truthfully good news till after death.
If the good shepherd will not rest with even one of his little sheep lost, how much more God will seek for us wayward sheep.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on October 11, 2012, 08:18:16 PM
What about Hebrews 9:27, that Verse is Used often to show
that Universalism is FALSE, that there are no Second Chances After Death to Repent and Accept Christ, that once a person dies without Christ all hope is lost for them
Lets look at the verse to verify that claim:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this
all hope is lost :eek: Hmm, that seems pretty definitive. Oh wait, it doesn't say that at all! :winkgrin:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Do a full study on what judgment is, and what judgment does.
Here is an example:
Isaiah 26:9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Psalm 96:13 Let all creation rejoice before the LORD, for he comes, he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in his faithfulness.
So here we see that judgment teaches people what is right (ie. righteousness), and people will rejoice when He comes to judge the world. Will people be rejoicing over all the others (presumably not themselves) who, as you say, all hope is lost? Is that Christ-like, to rejoice that others have lost all hope? Key point: Christ taught us to love our enemies.
Idiom #31 - Judgement and salvation
Psalm 43:1 Judge me, O God
Isaiah 59:9-14
New International Version (NIV)
Isa 59
9 So justice is far from us,
and righteousness does not reach us.
We look for light, but all is darkness;
for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.
11 We all growl like bears;
we moan mournfully like doves.
We look for justice, but find none;
for deliverance, but it is far away.
14 So justice is driven back,
and righteousness stands at a distance;
truth has stumbled in the streets,
honesty cannot enter
In all the above verses judgement equals something good like rightousness and salvation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Read Psalm 122 in which Jerusalem is called city of Salvation with several thrones.
Parallel between psalm 122 and Mat 19:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course judgement can be really negative; but the word itself certainly isn't all doom and gloom.
Context.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Matt 12:18 [ACV])
Behold, my Boy whom I chose, my beloved in whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will declare justice to the Gentiles.
(Isa 42:1 [ACV])
Behold, my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights. I have put my Spirit upon him, he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
(Ps 43:1 [ACV])
Judge me, O God, and plead my cause against a profane nation. O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man.
(John 3:17 [ACV])
For God sent the Son into the world not that he might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
(the noun salvation is only 7 times in the Gospels
The Hebrew word for Judgement, judging, etc very often means saving, to save etc
Jesus came to save not to judge.
When David was is trouble he called for help (salvation) not the negative meaning of judgement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Judg 11:27 [ACV])
I therefore have not sinned against thee, but thou do me wrong to war against me. LORD, the Judge, be judge this day between the sons of Israel and the sons of Ammon.
(Isa 33:22 [ACV])
For LORD is our judge. LORD is our lawgiver. LORD is our king, he will save us.
(Gen 18:25 [ACV])
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay a righteous man with a wicked man, that so the righteous man should be as the wicked man. Far be it from thee. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
(Ps 94:2 [ACV])
Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth. Render to the proud a recompense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Luke 22:30 [ACV])
that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(Ps 122:1 [ACV])
I was glad when they said to me, Let us go to the house of LORD.
(Ps 122:2 [ACV])
Our feet are standing inside thy gates, O Jerusalem.
(Ps 122:3 [ACV])
Jerusalem, that is built as a city that is compact together,
(Ps 122:4 [ACV])
where the tribes go up, even the tribes of LORD, [for] an ordinance for Israel, to give thanks to the name of LORD.
(Ps 122:5 [ACV])
For there thrones are set for judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
(Ps 122:6 [ACV])
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. They shall prosper who love thee.
(Ps 122:7 [ACV])
Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
(Ps 122:8 [ACV])
For my brothers and companions' sakes I will now say, Peace be within thee.
(Ps 122:9 [ACV])
For the sake of the house of LORD our God I will seek thy good.
Jersusalem, city of salvation.
Quote from: legoman on October 12, 2012, 08:25:04 PM
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on October 11, 2012, 08:18:16 PM
What about Hebrews 9:27, that Verse is Used often to show
that Universalism is FALSE, that there are no Second Chances After Death to Repent and Accept Christ, that once a person dies without Christ all hope is lost for them
Lets look at the verse to verify that claim:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this all hope is lost
Hebrews 9: 27 And inasmuch as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, judgment,
---> The classic verse to prove there is no chance for salvation after death.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
---> Maybe they make fake confessions to escape hell?
---> That can only be true if the Holy Spirit inspires lies and fake confessions....
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed, and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, except by Holy Spirit.
---> That's very clear; all who kneel do so because the Holy Spirit dwells within them. So the kneeling is a genuine confession...
---> Note that this is also the case before death.
---> But maybe it's to late anyway?
Romans 10:9 that if thou will confess with thy mouth, Lord Jesus, and will believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou will be saved.
---> Short recap: Everyone will make a true confession and at that point they will be saved. Obviously mrs muslim and mr. satanist never confesed in this life. Yet they are part of "everyone".
--->
Ergo there is a chance after death. Ergo salvation after death is a Holy Spirit enforced fact for those groups.
---> Finally all the above are unconditional statements. But if there is still doubt....
Isaiah 45: 23 By myself I have sworn, the word has gone forth from my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue will confess to God
My View is That 1 Tim 4:10 does NOT show that Jesus will save all Mankind,
both Believers and Non-Believers, Where it says
"Especially of those who believe" The Word "Especially" is taken
OUT OF CONTEXT and is just used as a Figure of Speech, just like "All in All" :dunno2:
I've heard about verses taken out of context but a word in a verse is out of context?
HS inspired that word to be placed there. How can it be out of context?
Perhaps you hold a common view similar to: 'especially' is a wrong translation and actually should be translated as 'that is' ?
A view that's easily refuted I must add.
What does all in all mean? All in some?
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on October 19, 2012, 09:56:07 PM
My View is That 1 Tim 4:10 does NOT show that Jesus will save all Mankind,
both Believers and Non-Believers, Where it says
"Especially of those who believe" The Word "Especially" is taken
OUT OF CONTEXT and is just used as a Figure of Speech, just like "All in All" :dunno2:
What about the ALL in these verses, is it taken out of contex?
(Col. 1:17-18) And he is before ALL things, and by him ALL things consist. That in ALL things he might have the preeminence.
(Verse 20) And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2012, 12:23:38 AM
I've heard about verses take out of context but a word in a verse is out of context?
HS inspired that word to be placed there. How can it be out of context?
Perhaps you hold a common view similar to: 'especially' is a wrong translation and actually should be translated as 'that is' ?
A view that's easily refunded I must add.
What does all in all mean? All in some?
I'll wait with you WW. I'm curious :HeartThrob:
Quote from: CHB on October 20, 2012, 01:25:42 AM
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on October 19, 2012, 09:56:07 PM
My View is That 1 Tim 4:10 does NOT show that Jesus will save all Mankind,
both Believers and Non-Believers, Where it says
"Especially of those who believe" The Word "Especially" is taken
OUT OF CONTEXT and is just used as a Figure of Speech, just like "All in All" :dunno2:
What about the ALL in these verses, is it taken out of contex?
(Col. 1:17-18) And he is before ALL things, and by him ALL things consist. That in ALL things he might have the preeminence.
(Verse 20) And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF.
CHB
Context is a double edged sword.
How far the context reaches? 1 verse. 10? Chapter? Whole Bible? Usually context stops when it proves the view of the poster. (selective)
Once I've read a very good example about why all isn't always all.
A teacher said: Because it's such a hot summer day I'm going to buy everyone an ice cream!
Did the teacher plan to buy 7 billion ice creams? Or just for the kids in class?
I think that's valid reasoning. But it only can being proven by context.
So when Jesus said all will be saved should we just focus on that single word all? Or figure out if He was speaking like the teacher to a small class.
You and I agree. But be both know "...the saviour of all men..." isn't enough to convince everyone.
White wings:
A flaw with the teacher and the ice cream cones. The teacher was not "connected" in anyway with those outside the class.
Certainly not the way the creator is connected with his creation.
Also, the reason for the ice cream was a "hot summer day" as opposed to the Creator wanting his creation to be with him always.
Also, by the shed blood of Jesus, the ice cream cones, in essence, have already been bought and paid for for the whole world.
Also, this illustration has nothing to do with good and evil, punishment and reward, judgment and relationship, hope and love.(unless you count the students "loving" the teacher for her treat.
Hmmm... breaking it down, the analogy doesn't seem as good as when I first read it and was somewhat in agreement. :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2012, 11:08:01 AM
Quote from: CHB on October 20, 2012, 01:25:42 AM
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on October 19, 2012, 09:56:07 PM
My View is That 1 Tim 4:10 does NOT show that Jesus will save all Mankind,
both Believers and Non-Believers, Where it says
"Especially of those who believe" The Word "Especially" is taken
OUT OF CONTEXT and is just used as a Figure of Speech, just like "All in All" :dunno2:
What about the ALL in these verses, is it taken out of contex?
(Col. 1:17-18) And he is before ALL things, and by him ALL things consist. That in ALL things he might have the preeminence.
(Verse 20) And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF.
CHB
Context is a double edged sword.
How far the context reaches? 1 verse. 10? Chapter? Whole Bible? Usually context stops when it proves the view of the poster. (selective)
Once I've read a very good example about why all isn't always all.
A teacher said: Because it's such a hot summer day I'm going to buy everyone an ice cream!
Did the teacher plan to buy 7 billion ice creams? Or just for the kids in class?
I think that's valid reasoning. But it only can being proven by context.
So when Jesus said all will be saved should we just focus on that single word all? Or figure out if He was speaking like the teacher to a small class.
You and I agree. But be both know "...the saviour of all men..." isn't enough to convince everyone.
I thought about that WW but I agree with what dead2daworld said, there is just no comparison.
CHB
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 20, 2012, 04:44:27 PM
White wings:
Another flaw
Another?
Quotewith the teacher and the ice cream cones. The teacher was not "connected" in anyway with those outside the class.
Surely there is a connection with the outside of the class. It's called the world they live in.
Snipped the rest for being off-topic to this example.
go to 'every' Philipians 2;10....every instead of all....every knee bow every tongue confess.....everyone that
calls on the name of the Lord...TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER..........
we are to expect that at Christ's secound coming...He come in the GLORY OF THE FATHER..........
Jesus said...'what is impossible with men..is possible with God." in reply to his disciples that
were questioning Him about the number of those saved.........worth a try? :dontknow:
I only read the 1st page of this discussion.
2 major things helped me see the eventual salvation of all.
1.) How can I reconcile these two diametrically opposed ideas: God is Love. God is a torturer.
a. - Hell is a place where people burn alive, like burning at the stake but worse, without an end. They feel the horror of their skin and body parts burning alive forever. Ever burn your finger? :eek: God orders people to this place Hell, FOR ALL ETERNITY because they don't believe right, or act right in their 75 years on earth... punishment that lasts not for an equal 75 years, not for 150 years, not even 1000 years, not even 10,000 years, not even 1,000,000 years.
b. - Something about that never set right with me. I just went along with it cuz the church said it was true.
2.) Sheol, the Hebrew word for grave, does not mean Hell. <--- This is a FACT! So, how/why did it get translated as Hell? Was it an honest mistake or a deliberate attempt to deceive? Did someone have an agenda?
The HISTORIC FACT is... HELL IS A MYTH!! IT IS NOT A REAL PLACE!!! IT IS MYTHOLOGICAL!!! THERE IS NO ONE IN THIS IMAGINARY HELL RIGHT NOW!!! NOR WILL THERE EVER BE!!!
Right Jeremias.
In addition, consider that we are "born in sin" "have a sin nature" are "enemies of God"
and cannot come to saving knowledge without God ordaining and/or arranging it.
God is the "author and finisher" of our salvation.
So who can be held accountable because they are a sinner to begin with?
Jesus was born of God ("and so, Mary was pregnant, being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit of God') so that the sin nature of Adam would not be passed down to him.
If it is believed God is the Master Torturer, then, because His purpose in making us is to make us in His image and likeness (His Own form and similitude,) we must believe that sooner of later He will make us Master Torturers tool
_________________________________________
That, "God...is the Savior of all mankind, specially those that believe" is something I first believed at 3 am, July 18, 1981. I knew I'd finally gone off the proverbial "deep end" and had no more hope of being accepted, but rather hated and reviled as a false teacher or false prophet by most of what passes for mainstream Christianity in our days, even 'til now. That is why I looked at my wristwatch. What was to me a major death had just occurred.
How many that He does not save is He the savior of? Try to think of that until you realize what it means and what is the answer. Eventually He performs His transforming work of salvation upon all. For now there is a special salvation for those Firstfruits He has chosen out from among the rest, which is what makes the rest holy. Even from them He will cause to mature an early company of Overcomers that qualify to bear His name written upon their foreheads to bring the rest in. Even in times long past, Paul was walking in the Divine nature, fully preaching the gospel in power, it being accompanied with signs and wonders to make the nations obedient to His will.
Romans 1518-19 (KJV)
[18] For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, [19] Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Quote from: reFORMer on October 22, 2012, 08:29:58 AM
If it is believed God is the Master Torturer, then, because His purpose in making us is to make us in His image and likeness (His Own form and similitude,) we must believe that sooner of later He will make us Master Torturers tool
_________________________________________
That, "God...is the Savior of all mankind, specially those that believe" is something I first believed at 3 am, July 18, 1981. I knew I'd finally gone off the proverbial "deep end" and had no more hope of being accepted, but rather hated and reviled as a false teacher or false prophet by most of what passes for mainstream Christianity in our days, even 'til now. That is why I looked at my wristwatch. What was to me a major death had just occurred.
How many that He does not save is He the savior of? Try to think of that until you realize what it means and what is the answer. Eventually He performs His transforming work of salvation upon all. For now there is a special salvation for those Firstfruits He has chosen out from among the rest, which is what makes the rest holy. Even from them He will cause to mature an early company of Overcomers that qualify to bear His name written upon their foreheads to bring the rest in. Even in times long past, Paul was walking in the Divine nature, fully preaching the gospel in power, it being accompanied with signs and wonders to make the nations obedient to His will.
Romans 1518-19 (KJV)
[18] For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, [19] Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Awesome. :HeartThrob:
You cannot Prove Universalism is True, from the Bible alone, it is
Only a Possibility, The Bible HOPELESSLY Contradicts Itself, and you cannot Make the Pieces of this Huge Puzzle fit, Only God Knows
You keep saying "you" meaning us, the rest of the forum people
when actually you are saying "you" meaning yourself.
Believe what you want, you have been shown numerous times and have had numerous
scripture "proofs" and you keep coming back to the same questions that were already answered.
ET people say, if you're (UR)right and I'm (ET) wrong I'll be okay in the end, but if I'm (ET) right and you're (UR) wrong you'll burn in hell forever.
Personally, if God was like the ET god, I'd just as soon burn becuz that would mean the devil is more powerful.
I do know that it's impossible to truly love someone and believe the God of Love that you love failed to make a provision for them they will burn in hell for all eternity. Would that give you joy and peace for all time?
If Universalism or Eternal Torment is True, you cannot proove it either way from the
Bible Alone, You Cannot, NO ONE has Proven from the Bible Alone that
Universalism or Eternal Torment is True, No One Knows,
No one has Proven either Eternal Torment or UR,
What about Near-Death Expieriences, do they Support Universalism
some do,some don't.
Ester 1;8 By the King's command each guest was allowed to drink in his own way,for the king
instructed all the wine stewards to serve each man what he wished..
Ester gave two Banquets......
there are two banquets in Revelations also, Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper
of the Lamb..'These are the true words of God.
and this one 'come gather togather for the great supper of God[birds flying in mid-air/babylon cage of
unclean birds] so that you may eat the flesh of kings,generals mighty men[not Christ's flesh]
for one..the love of truth is in them..the other..the love of truth is not in
If you love truth..Christ will set you free..if not you may be confined in a cage[church] in babylon
when you are set free from babylon..you are as the dove whoflies to her dovecote..or as unclean
bird spirit that gorges on flesh.
Isthe love of truth/God in you? then ask,seek,knock..and He will come and sup with you
ask Him for His holy spirit to guide you and deliver you from the snares of the evil one.
Psalms 74;19 do not hand over the life of your dove to wild beasts...
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Available at bookstores, Also 99 percent of Christians and all the Mainstream Churches say
Universalism is NOT of the Bible, and is False Doctrine, can they all be Wrong
Did anyone read Universal Salvation: The Current Debate, It lets the Reader decide for themselves.
Haven't read it or even heardof it TAF. Jesus said,wide is the road that leads to destruction and many
are on it . But narrow the path that leads to eternal life.
Taf, hopefully, you will read much scripture,pray about it and read the posts at this website.
To me it boiled down towould I worship a God of Love, or a God of hate?
Personally, I would RATHER be tortured for all eternity than worship a God of hate.
In other words, if the ET'ers are right, I refuse to worship their God and gladly go to eternal torment -
For I KNOW whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed to my God of love.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on November 01, 2012, 10:34:52 PM
Available at bookstores, Also 99 percent of Christians and all the Mainstream Churches say
Universalism is NOT of the Bible, and is False Doctrine, can they all be Wrong
Did anyone read Universal Salvation: The Current Debate, It lets the Reader decide for themselves.
Having not seen the "Current Debate" book I wonder if it's another ET agenda driven treatise radically unfair to actual Christian UR beliefs, misrepresenting us in too typical of a fashion.
As a proof of how deceived Christians are becoming, CARM (a site claiming to give all the answers to what we should believe, who is right and who is wrong) posted some research results for a long time (though they removed it a few months ago. I think it backfired on them.) The statistics were 50% of Christians polled do not believe in an eternal hell and 70% of those calling themselves Christian ministers do not believe in Eternal Torment.
Here's a link to a short article that deals more with CARM (Christian Apologetic and Research Ministry.) You should read down a few paragraphs until you get to the
True or False Test. Run this test on yourself of what the Bible says and what you believe. See if after that you can say no one can know whether or not the salvation of all is what the Bible teaches.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
Universalism or Eternal Torment, Which is True, that's in the Eye of the Beholder
Only God Knows for Certain, Only God Knows,
That's why it is so important to know God. "Let this mind be in you, the mind which is in Christ"
The better and the more you know scripture, the better you will know the Lord and know whether ET or UR is true.
We have a slew of scripture verses that point one way (UR) and the ET people have a few poorly and mistranslated, taken out of context verses that would support ET.
If the thought of a loving, merciful God eternally torturing someone doesn't, at the very least, make you feel uneasy you would probably make a good ET'er.
If, however, the thought that a Loving God would provide a way to be ultimately reconciled amazes or astounds you by the infinite love, you might make a good UR'er.
If, all you do is read ither opinions back and forth, pro and con, you are likely to end up torn and confused.
TAF
Have you ever thought about "all Israel being saved" and what that means?
(Rom.11:26-36) And ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. (Verse 27) when I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS. (Verse 32) For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief that he might have mercy upon ALL.
If all Israel is going to be saved, I am sure there were Israelites who never repented, who died in their sins. How do you explain this? It says "I SHALL take away their sins", not Israel will have to get rid of their sins, or they will burn in hell. It says "All Israel will be saved and he will take away their sins and have mercy upon ALL. How does one get any torture from this? Why would God save all Isarel including those who never repented, who died in their sins and burn others in hell?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 06, 2012, 09:45:12 PM
TAF
Have you ever thought about "all Israel being saved" and what that means?
(Rom.11:26-36) And ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. (Verse 27) when I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS. (Verse 32) For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief that he might have mercy upon ALL.
If all Israel is going to be saved, I am sure there were Israelites who never repented, who died in their sins. How do you explain this? It says "I SHALL take away their sins", not Israel will have to get rid of their sins, or they will burn in hell. It says "All Israel will be saved and he will take away their sins and have mercy upon ALL. How does one get any torture from this? Why would God save all Isarel including those who never repented, who died in their sins and burn others in hell?
CHB
:2thumbs: One of my favorites.
Another of my favorites is, Jesus "hid himself" from most during His earthly ministry. During that time, people who "rubbed shoulders with him" died. Did he intentionally ignore them, knowing they'd burn in "hell" forever?
Or, did he know of another plan/intent?. (I vote for that one.) :happygrin:
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on November 06, 2012, 07:37:13 PM
Universalism or Eternal Torment, Which is True, that's in the Eye of the Beholder
Only God Knows for Certain, Only God Knows,
That nobody but God knows for certain can be said about almost any knowledge; however, I think God has put enough of His own mind in scripture so we can reasonably say we know His will about this. His book says, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should repent and come to the knowledge of the truth." That's pretty clear to me. His revelation in the written Word adequately makes known the salvation of all.
It is adequate, not comprehensive revelation we have in the Bible.Repeatedly Jesus is called, "The savior of the world." He is also titled, "The savior of all." That would be a lie if He didn't do it. How many is He the savior of that He does NOT save? That is fall off a log easy to answer. Most I've encountered get what they believe from the Preacher, somebody on television, their parents, and so on. That's why they aren't impressed with the Bible, regardless of what they say. Hardly anybody reasons according to the Word made flesh either. Even though they've experienced the Lord when they were born again, or baptized in the Holy Spirit and some walk close enough to have other experiences of Him being revealed to them, they don't reason according to that. You just can't look into the face of God and see someone who is a Master Torturer, making us in His image.
You look around this site and you'll find so much more about it. Try "Scholar's Corner." For years I've read the arguments here and elsewhere people make in favor of countless people in permanent hell and against God's ultimate salvation of all. They don't quote the Bible saying what they say and they try to explain away where it is taught in the Word by inserting conditions into scripture that are not there. One man I talked to kept saying over and over, "All doesn't mean all." There's nothing like religion to mess your mind up.
The people who teach ceaseless torture for ever just don't have the verses saying what they say. That was very amazing to me (and still is,) partly because they always said to me, and are still saying it, that, "We believe the Bible." I believed them. But, since they haven't studied this topic, they don't know about what is or is not written. I thought they'd look it all up in a concordance first, that they surely had checked the facts before they made up their minds. They were our leaders, our parents, our church. They are so sure they're right a lot of them won't let anyone who has studied the subject even speak to them about it. How can they ever be corrected or be improved?
In 1st John he said their not being able to hear is the proof, it is, "...how we know that they're not in a spirit of truth, but are in a spirit of error." One of the biggest surprises for me: they haven't studied this. Just look up "hell" in a good Bible dictionary, one that gives you a history of the word "hell" for instance. What is so hard about that? Or what I just asked you to do that I'll ask again:
Click on the link below and read down a few paragraphs until you get to the "True or False Test." Run this test on yourself of what the Bible says and what you believe. See if after that you can say no one can know whether or not the salvation of all is what the Bible teaches.http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
The Bible says Jesus is "The Saviour of the World"
but that does NOT imply, Every Single Individual will be Saved, past,present or future
Only those that Accept him in this Life can be Saved :dunno2:
I've seen you post different things. Do you really believe what you just said, or are you just attempting to initiate discussion? Same thing with all the Jew stuff. Thanks.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on November 22, 2012, 12:10:21 AM
The Bible says Jesus is "The Saviour of the World"
but that does NOT imply, Every Single Individual will be Saved, past,present or future
Only those that Accept him in this Life can be Saved :dunno2:
Maybe it does imply that everyone will be saved. If Jesus is the Savior of the World, it follows that if He does not save everyone, He has failed in His mission. However, being a member of the nine-fold Godhead, Jesus CAN NOT fail, therefore everyone is and will be saved. Omnipotence wins out against human will every time. Yeah, I subscribe to Irresistible Grace. Does that make sense?
You're right TAF "Saviour of the world" definitely "does not imply, every single individual
will be saved , past, present, and future"
No implication there at all. It states it bluntly and plainly and clearly and it IS scripture which takes precedent over anyone's opinion.
What about Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind :dunno2:
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on November 26, 2012, 07:30:18 PM
What about Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind :dunno2:
There are different ways to interpret almost any verse in the Bible, but given what else we have in other texts, the Bible usually interprets itself, for the Truth points to itself. Pay attention to every word in the verse - many sleep in the dust of the ground, and some awake to everlasting life, and some to everlasting shame and contempt. I see the latter as those who are cast into outer darkness with gnashing of teeth and all that. That is the fate of the fellow at the feast who lacked the proper garments - he was given the bum's rush out the door into outer darkness, but it is not stated that he was cast into hell, or died. Same with these. You have to be alive to feel shame or to receive contempt. For me, it is just an indication that not all are of the same class in the Kingdom. Hell is nowhere implied in this verse, or lack of salvation for anyone, just that not all will be saved for the same kind of life in the hereafter.
Laz- we were typing at the same time and yours is a great intro to mine-thank you!
TAF - The word in the hebrew is "olam" which has been translated eternal. It is also translated "age enduring", "for an indefinite time", "for a long unspecified time" and "age abiding" in other spots in the OT. The word hooked up with OLAM is DERA'ON which nowhere means torture or even punishment but instead means "Abhorrence" "aversion" "contempt"
Does it make sense to you that God:
would make humans knowing that they will sin,
and know that he(God) is the only one that can save us and cover our sins with his shed blood
and no one even has an interest in the things of God without his intervention
and God is the author and finisher of our faith
and it is his gift to us and not of anything we've done or even could have done.
So, based on the above and :
God is Love
God is eternal
God is a consuming fire
doesn't it make more sense that those not written in the book of life will be placed
in the consuming fire of God's eternal love where there, sins will be burned up, peoples will be purified, the truth will be revealed to them and they will willingly bow the knee and confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father and their names will then be added to the book of life? Just askin'
I can't remember if I read this on Tentmaker or elsewhere... but I do like the conversion of Paul as an example of what might/might not be written in the Book of Life. Someone said something to the effect of "You can bet the name 'Saul' isn't in there, but the new man 'Paul' almost certainly is"
Since we are all going to be given new names, maybe that's what's there.
I bet God just might know who's who :laughing7:
So the name Saul might be there, just not the Saul we know as Paul. :Peace2:
Quote from: victoriousgospel on November 26, 2012, 08:58:52 PM
I can't remember if I read this on Tentmaker or elsewhere... but I do like the conversion of Paul as an example of what might/might not be written in the Book of Life. Someone said something to the effect of "You can bet the name 'Saul' isn't in there, but the new man 'Paul' almost certainly is"
Just a few quotes.
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Dan 7:9 "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
And I saw a great white throne, ................. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and
the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(Rev 20:11-13)
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,
their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:4-16)
For
the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)
His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and
His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
(Rev 1:14-15)
"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God,
who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this: '
I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.
(Rev 2:18-19)
I propose that the pens that fill the books out of which the works of men are judged are the consciences of men themselves, having been written within their own being upon the scroll of their heart/conscience -the secrets of their hearts laid bare before the eyes of consuming fire(Messiah Jesus) and the living and active sword of the spirit- the word of God, bringing every hidden thing to light.
Everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice seasoned with salt.
"I propose that the pens that fill the books out of which the works of men are judged are the consciences of men themselves, having been written within their own being upon the scroll of their heart/conscience -the secrets of their hearts laid bare before the eyes of consuming fire(Messiah Jesus) and the living and active sword of the spirit- the word of God, bringing every hidden thing to light."
Could be but isn't supported by scripture directly.
Besides, the "21st Century Standard American Easy Reading" Bible says "For your names are encrypted on my hardrive and it shall never crash or be hacked." :laughing7:
Some say a Hell of Endless Torment is a MYTH, others say Jesus spoke about it,
so who is Right, is it open to Interpretation, who is Right, does Hell Exist
Of course hell exists - just not how many (most people imagine it. The hell portrayed in movies and which stands out in peop[le's minds is from a book called Dante's Inferno. Although a work of fiction, people have used this depiction of hell to keep others "in Line"
Hell is merely the grave or the unseen location of the dead.
Hell is not the lake of fire for scripture says that death AND hell are tossed into the lake of fire. As I
said earlier hell is the abode of the dead, so it only makes sense that BOTH are simultaneously cast into the lake of fire.
There is no eternal torture but there is corrective punishment of finite duration.
"God alone is eternal", "our God is a consuming fire" therefore, the ONLY eternal fire is God himself.
Don't misunderstand-God is not mocked and there is, like I said, corrective punishment but it is of limited duration.
Well, everything is 'open to interpretation'. It's just a matter of how well you can back up your interpretation with Scripture.
We will never know who is "right" until we meet the Big Guy himself, but those of us who have studied UR and lined up on the side of that interpretation are not in fear that we are incorrect about it. In fact, I would say that all Eternal Torment has going for it is a lot of inertia built up by being a hard and fast dogma for so many years.
If the fact that a large percentage of Christianity believes in the doctrine of Eternal Torment scares you into believing, just consider the fact that for well over a millennium anyone who disagreed with the Catholic Church was considered a heretic, doomed to Eternal Torment. Nowadays, I don't know many Protestant Christians who are worried that the Catholic Church might have legitimately had the market cornered on this whole Jesus thing. :laugh:
It's only by questioning established beliefs and getting back to what the Bible says in its original languages and cultural context that we can really find the true meaning. People will disagree on the finer points.
I think it's obvious that you are struggling with this idea, but you keep asking the same questions over and over. If you want anyone here to claim they have known the mind of God and can say with 100% certainty that we're correct on Universalism, I doubt you'll have anyone here offer that up. But that's the difference between most Universalists and your average ET-teaching denomination - we recognize dogma as damaging to spiritual dialogue, and that if anyone claims to have the Bible "completely figured out", they are probably not to be trusted. :2c:
And as I've mentioned to you before TAF
IF I am wrong about UR and the ET people are right. Then the God I know and worship has been a figment of my imagination. If God really is a sadistic torturer that ET'ers make him out to be, then I would just as soon burn in hell for all eternity and someone else can have my "free" gift of conditional love. Especially since, if ET people are right, God only wants about 5% of the population to join him as he begins torturing the other 95% of their friends, family, and most of the people they came in contact with. That is sick, twisted, and blasphemic to even consider worshiping a being like that.
Oops, was that too strong? Sorry. TAF just quit listening to what everyone else has to say. Ask yourself, Does the Jesus that I know, or the Jesus portrayed in the Bible, have the capacity to torture those he loves? "Love your enemies" "do good to those that spitefully use you" "Forgive them for they know not what they do." "His grace and mercy last forever while his anger but a short while" "No greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" "and we were all once enemies of God" and "while we were enemies, he laid down his life for us."
:goodpost:
Authentic Fan, the best thing you can do is to put away your commentaries, your church/Church approved books, catechisms, Sunday School lessons, pre-conceived ideas, etc, etc, etc. Read the Books of Moses, especially the Law parts, and you will get a rough idea of the mind of God. Then read the gospels, especially what Jesus said - that will give you a finer (or to say, a less rough) idea of the mind of God. Keep in mind that the God of the OT, YHWH, meaning "Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail." is the same as Jesus. Get it from the source, man!
Do not forget prayer as part of the process, for God gives liberally to those who seek Him.
Remember that the Truth points to itself.
On one hand, God making a hell that's the worst evil imaginable is certainly false. Compare, on the other hand, God's idea of how we'll rise from the grave with immortal life. It's certainly not like movie vampires either. The Truth moves the lies out of our heads. What's important shows up when we carry out the trash. We change when we walk with God for a while.
A little observation;
no prophet had any say in what to do, what to say, or when to do the task to which he was assigned.
Paul had no say in his conversion. he considered himself the chief sinner.
Gal 1;11,12 " For I want you to know, brethren, that the gospel which was proclaimed and made known to me is NOT man's gospel. For indeed I did not receive it from man, NOR was I taught it, but it came to me through direct revelation given by Jesus Christ."
vs 15 " But when He, Who has chosen me and set me apart BEFORE I WAS BORN and had called me by His grace, saw fit and was pleased to reveal His Son within me so that I might proclaim Him among the gentiles as the glad tidings,
imeediately I did NOY confer with flesh and blood, NOR did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before I was,
but I went away into Arabia, and afterwards I came back again to Damascus."
He was also considered the chief sinner;
1 Tim 1;12-16 " I am grateful to Him that empowered me, Christ Jesus our Lord, in that He accounted me faithful putting me into ministry,
though formerly a defamer
and a persecutor,
and insulter;
NEVERTHELESS mercy was shown to me because I acted in unbelief;
yet exceedingly abundant was the favour of our Lord with faith and love WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS.
Faithful the saying and worthy of all acceptance,
that Christ came into save sinners;
of whom I AM THE CHIEF;
NEVERTHE LESS was mercy shown me on this account-
that in me, the chief, Christ Jesus might show forth His entire patience for an example of them about to believe on Him to age-abiding life."
* Paul says that he was the chief sinner, yet he was a Pharisee and being a pharisee I find it incredible that he said he thought that to be "acting in unbelief."
As chief sinner to have no say in his conversion seems to be highlighting that some are chosen to set encouraging examples of a "long term" plan which is ALL in the hands of our creator.
Does not make us mindless has-beans, but to me, gives the security of a master plan for ALL.
Good post Ross. I'd like to re-post this portion from The Christian Bible that I believe goes along with/reinforces your thoughts;
Romans 6:22 Yet now that you have been freed from that which is wrong and have become slaves of God..
1 Cor. 4: 4 A human must be continually regarding us in this manner, as
assistants of the Anointed One and management slaves of God's secrets!
1 Cor. 9: 16 For if I am continually spreading the Good Message, I can't boast about it,
FOR COMPULSION TO DO SO WAS PRESSED UPON ME; for how terrible it is for me if
I don't spread the Good Message! 17 For if I am engaging in this voluntarily, then I would have wages;
yet if it is involuntarily, then I have been entrusted with a service as a management slave. 18 So then, what is
my wage? It is this, that in spreading the Good Message..
Blessings.
True.
Also the point Paul makes in 1 Cor 15;10 ' By favour of God I am what I am, and His Favour which was to me has not been made void, but much more abundantly than all them have I toiled,
ALBEIT NOT I, BUT the favour of God with me."
* I also like the demonstration of being a dad and loving my kids regardless of the mistakes they make. Not one of those kids had any say in their birth, and they have gone through many pains and excitements. They are still my kids regardless.
And our Father loves us more than we can even grasp.
Eph 3;18,19 " In order that you might be might enough to grasp firmly with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,
to get to know the knowledge surpassing love of the Christ, in order that you might FILLED to ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD."
I agree. In the end, it's all Him, and it must be Him working through us.
I know it's more serious than that, and it could be debated on technicalities or minor details, but as a general cute picture of it, I like what Martin Zender said about us being co-laborers with God. He said it's like God is in the driver's seat driving the car, and He lets us play with the power windows and door locks. :laugh:
Real character Zender, has some interesting books and talks on his site.
Being a joint-heir with Jesus is also pretty inspiring.
Gal 4;4-6 " But when the proper time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born subject to the law, to purchase the freedom of those who were subject to the law, that we might BE ADOPTED and have sonship conferred on us. And because you really are His sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying Father!"
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on November 27, 2012, 07:13:41 PM
Some say a Hell of Endless Torment is a MYTH, others say Jesus spoke about it,
so who is Right, is it open to Interpretation, who is Right, does Hell Exist
www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com (http://www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com)
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 27, 2012, 07:36:56 PM
Of course hell exists - just not how many (most people imagine it. The hell portrayed in movies and which stands out in peop[le's minds is from a book called Dante's Inferno. Although a work of fiction, people have used this depiction of hell to keep others "in Line"
Hell is merely the grave or the unseen location of the dead.
Hell is not the lake of fire for scripture says that death AND hell are tossed into the lake of fire. As I
said earlier hell is the abode of the dead, so it only makes sense that BOTH are simultaneously cast into the lake of fire.
There is no eternal torture but there is corrective punishment of finite duration.
"God alone is eternal", "our God is a consuming fire" therefore, the ONLY eternal fire is God himself.
Don't misunderstand-God is not mocked and there is, like I said, corrective punishment but it is of limited duration.
I would (kindly, gently with a smile on)dispute the "Of Course" part. IMO there is no hell and never was. Hell is Sheol in scripture(52 times)... Gehenna(11 times, but repeats of the same four times in the gospels- so only 4 times). IMO, The lake of fire is not hell, nor is it ever identified as such in the scripture. Same with Gehenna.
Hell is a pure
creation of three series of translators. The Greeks(Septuagint, Sheol to Hades) then the Romans(Latin Vulgate, Hades to Inferno), then finally the Danes/English (King James Version, Hades and Inferno to Hell). From the begonning it was not so :o)
www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com (http://www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com)
The concept embodied in the contemporary word "hell" was never a part of the original Hebrew scriptures. The idea of a place of eternal burning torment cannot be found in the Old Testament. The word "hell" never occurred in the collected writings we call the Bible until the 1500's and the advent of English translations. There are three Hebrew words in the English Bibles that are translated "hell". One is "Sheol", another is "Gehenna", and the third, which occurs only once in the entire collection of holy writings called "the bible" is "Tartarus". Each of these words has its own particular meaning. None of them is equivalent to the others. Therefore, let's ask the obvious question, "How could three different words be correctly translated into the one word, "hell."
The obvious answer is,"They could not have." Someone might assume that one of them was correctly translated and the other two were not, but the fact is, none of the three words translates correctly into "hell". Hell comes from early Norse mythology and came to England through the invading Danes, Jutes and Vikings. In the mythology of Viking dominated Scandinavia, the goddess Hel ruled the place Hel.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on October 26, 2012, 11:20:12 PM
You cannot Prove Universalism is True, from the Bible alone, it is
Only a Possibility, The Bible HOPELESSLY Contradicts Itself, and you cannot Make the Pieces of this Huge Puzzle fit, Only God Knows
Of course it can be proven to be true. However, in an improperly translated bible it is harder to prove.
For instance the KJV's rendering of Matthew 25:46 directly opposes 1 Timothy 2:4-6. But a properly translated bible does not.
Get yourself a Concordant Literal translation and you will have a version that does not contradict itself.
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on November 06, 2012, 07:37:13 PM
Universalism or Eternal Torment, Which is True, that's in the Eye of the Beholder
Only God Knows for Certain, Only God Knows,
Only God and His friends know.
Truth is not truth in the eye of the beholder. It is either true or a lie. Black and white.
Why don't you research out the words behind "eternal"? The word "eternal" is a very poor translation of the Greek word "aionios." Look at Young's Literal translation of Matthew 25:46 and see.
So, it is too complex for Jesus to be the SAVIOUR of the WORLD? It is too complex to realize that the Fathers will WILL be DONE? It is too complex to realize that Love NEVER fails?
Matthew 15:3
3And he answering said to them, `Wherefore also do ye transgress the command of God because of your tradition?
2 Kings 17:40
40and they have not hearkened, but according to their former custom they are doing,
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! ML123 :thumbsup:
QuoteMany have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
Well, Many will ALSO come to Jesus and claim that they knew Him, that they do
wonderful works in His name. But Christ does not know them. Does the atheists and heathens claim to do these things? No. THE CHURCH DOES!
Luke 6:46
46`
And why do ye call me, Lord, Lord, and do not what I say?Matthew 7:22-23
22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23and then I will acknowledge to them, that--I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on May 17, 2018, 09:42:43 PM
QuoteMany have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
Well, Many will ALSO come to Jesus and claim that they knew Him, that they do wonderful works in His name. But Christ does not know them. Does the atheists and heathens claim to do these things? No. THE CHURCH DOES!
Luke 6:46
46`And why do ye call me, Lord, Lord, and do not what I say?
Matthew 7:22-23
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23and then I will acknowledge to them, that--I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
"
working lawlessness" -- :Chinscratch: I wonder what the Greek is..
http://biblehub.com/greek/458.htm
anomia - lawlessness, iniquity,
disobedience, sin(/missing the mark)
And...? ..not truly
following Jesus / THE way (so I guess.. whitewashed? which just doesn't really get it!
it misses the mark.. so reconciliation on 'day' of judgment? with the 2nd resurrection)
..just some :2c: :hiya:
Quote from: marie glen on May 18, 2018, 07:07:45 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on May 17, 2018, 09:42:43 PM
QuoteMany have said Universalism is a False Man Made Doctrine, and a Theory, and Wishful thinking
Well, Many will ALSO come to Jesus and claim that they knew Him, that they do wonderful works in His name. But Christ does not know them. Does the atheists and heathens claim to do these things? No. THE CHURCH DOES!
Luke 6:46
46`And why do ye call me, Lord, Lord, and do not what I say?
Matthew 7:22-23
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23and then I will acknowledge to them, that--I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
"working lawlessness" -- :Chinscratch: I wonder what the Greek is..
http://biblehub.com/greek/458.htm
anomia - lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin(/missing the mark)
And...? ..not truly following Jesus / THE way (so I guess.. whitewashed? which just doesn't really get it!
it misses the mark.. so reconciliation on 'day' of judgment? with the 2nd resurrection)
..just some :2c: :hiya:
I gotcha! :dsunny: :friendstu:
Is it lawfull to kill or heal on the Sabbath?[Christ's 1000yr reign]People forget that the religious leaders of Jesus day accused Him of demonic origin. He came to His own
and they knew Him not.
Many,many gospels are but man-made doctrines/commandments of sinful men.They nullify the Lamb of God[WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH] that takes away the sinsof
thewhole world.THEY NULLIFY MANY OTHER WORDS OF GOD CONCERNING RECONCILING ALL TO HIMSELF AND NOT COUNTING MEN'S TRESSPASSES AGAINST THEM
AS WELL AS FREELY FORGIVING SINS AND GIVING THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE.
They weigh with unjust scales,also...great mercy unto themselves and little or no mercy unto those that..fail to honour them or line up with their man made doctrines...
or pay them tithes. The Laodaecian church of the end times think they can see and are rich,spiritually speaking.Having no idea of their blindness and spiritual poverty.
Buy from me[not men]gold tried in the fire Psalms 12;6..and the words of the Lord are flawless..like silver refined in a furnace of clay seven times.
Magnify the 'Word of God' over that of men.Psalms138;2
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your Love and faithfullness,
FOR YOU HAVE EXALTED ABOVE ALL THINGS YOUR NAME AND YOUR WORD. :2c:
A good question I read asked at a different site years ago concerning Universalism is this. If the whole world is saved what is the point of the most evil vicious people acting out in this world? When God knows they'll still see the same paradise as those who loved him and lived righteously?
And, those passages that say those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. The aforementioned not only do make a habit but they conflict with the other passage that says, those who make that habit do not know God nor have his holy spirit.
An yet, Universalism teaches they're still saved by Him? :flamebreath:
Never did see anyone answer that thread. I'm recalling it from memory of years past. That isn't the copy/paste of the post.
Quote from: Batty Bible Page on June 27, 2018, 01:56:37 AM
A good question I read asked at a different site years ago concerning Universalism is this. If the whole world is saved what is the point of the most evil vicious people acting out in this world? When God knows they'll still see the same paradise as those who loved him and lived righteously?
I know about that argument, but when you really think about it, it's not really an argumen at all.
Why did God create sinners? Why not 100 billion Jesus types and put 'm in heaven right away?
What's the use of earth? Why first earth and then heaven? Why do good people have to prove themselves on this mudball for 80 years, while God already knows how it turns out?
If it's about learning I'm sure He can also create people with 'learned minds'.
Do you really think God wasn't able to create that evil OT king as a good guy?
Yes, He was able. But He didn't for some reason. Yeah, free will :blah: but why? That was a choice by God. Why? On top of that, good people will never abuse that free will to murder. Only bad people do.
Did God create bad people on purpose? Or is His design flawed, and that's why free will is used to murder?
He who digs a pit is responseble for covering it.So while the question is a good question, it most often isn't a question but a way to debunk UR. But at the same time it also raises questions about their own denomination. Complex questions that can't be answered. And with that, can't be used to debunk UR.
I look at it this way .... if all that we knew is good and then one day one of His children came up to Him and asked, "Is there anything else other than this?" or "Is there anything other than good?"
And since God cannot lie, He would have to tell that child, "Yes, there is, but you wouldn't want to go there."
The child would ask, "Why?"
And God would have to say, "Because it is a hurtful place, where evil is."
Then of course, the child is going to ask "What is evil?"
Can we really know what evil is just by someone explaining it to us? I believe evil has to be seen and experienced in order to fully know the potential of it. We have to experience the spirit of the word; experience the spirit of the word evil.
And in the same way, can we really know what love is just by someone explaining it to us? Again, I believe love has to be seen and experienced in order to fully know the potential of it. And again, we have to experience the spirit of the word; experience the ....
SPIRIT OF THE WORD LOVE
The rest is history
my :2c:
Quote from: Batty Bible Page on June 27, 2018, 01:56:37 AM
A good question I read asked at a different site years ago concerning Universalism is this. If the whole world is saved what is the point of the most evil vicious people acting out in this world? When God knows they'll still see the same paradise as those who loved him and lived righteously?
And, those passages that say those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. The aforementioned not only do make a habit but they conflict with the other passage that says, those who make that habit do not know God nor have his holy spirit.
An yet, Universalism teaches they're still saved by Him? :flamebreath:
Never did see anyone answer that thread. I'm recalling it from memory of years past. That isn't the copy/paste of the post.
Great thoughts WW, JUGG , Here I will also attempt to share some thoughts with BBP, but only the Holy Spirit can persuade any one of us at any time with the faith of Our Lord Jesus Christ working in any of us at any time.
There is no good answer for a skeptic , they will not believe anything said . they stop their ears from hearing the truth .
Some times the truth is silent before them ..but still is there .
The thing is,, God is carrying us though everything in this very short life and most never ,ever take it to heart !!
Mankind has always tried to bring God down to their level of understanding , and that is not possible to know God with mankind's carnal mindset ,it is death and the dead know nothing about God [LIFE ITSELF ] .Even reading the scriptures without the Spirit of Life bringing them, breathing to life in your mortal body, a powerful Word of Truth superseding any thought you held as a high thought gets cast out into the darkness , but the Light of Gods power is making something happen in you , you can never just explain away to anyone else , unless it is happening to them too , somthing in common .
During the short ministry Jesus says , in the scriptures , tell no man , or Mark 9:9
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus admonished them not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. Because that is when He was going to take death captive !
How into HIMSELF / LIFE is swallowing up death [ Colossians 1 ] Openly GOD makes a way ,we can know now , somthing that most had to wait upon a literal physical death to experience by the faith works of Gods Word & Spirit of Truth gathering together as ONE everything , nothing will be left undone ....
Most religious spirits is just being giving over to their own ideas about God as pointless thinking being the idols of their hearts desire .. Romans 1
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused............
The blind leading the blind and everyone is falling , but the LORD is carrying them every last one .
Faith of Christ , that anointing from God Himself [Life ] makes you know it is all in GODS POWER and not of ourselves .
Here is a powerful Living Word to consider, knowing salvation is of GOD only !
1Cor 15 ,,The Order of Resurrection
...27For "God has put everything under His feet." Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him,
so that God may be all in all.
29
If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?...
This is a great question you have got to ask yourself than , WHAT IS THE POINT !!!!!!! Paul lets us in on a big clue here !! and revelation Why did Paul and those chosen of God bother to Die for sharing what God give them to know against all odds ?
BECAUSE EVERYONE WILL BE RAISED UP INCORRUPTIBLE , NO MORE DEATH , no more pain no more dying all tears will be dried and comforted NOW , the WORD IS OUT , LIFE will swallow up death in victory!!!!!!!!!
THIS is truly what being baptized in Christ death means !! it is a pure and holy thing and meaning !! WHAT A PURPOSE !!
29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And why do we endanger ourselves every hour?
31I face death every day, brothers, as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for human motives, what did I gain? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."
33Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34 Sober up as you ought, and stop sinning; for some of you are ignorant of God. I say this to your shame.
1 Corinthians 3:23
and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.1 Corinthians 12:6
There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.Philippians 3:21
who,
by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body. I see this as a simple understanding , we are all slaves to sin , the darkness of ignorance and lies , till Christ comes / TRUTH to set us free from deaths grip and no more hold on us , some now and some later but always in GODS WISDOM ..
His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning. , children of the dawn , children of the Day , sons of Light , the Last Day that the Light increases 7 fold as all the days are ONE DAY
God's Mercies
...25And from every high mountain and every raised hill, streams of water will flow in the day of great slaughter, when the towers fall. 26The light of the moon will be as bright as the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter— like the light of seven days— on the day that the LORD binds up the brokenness of His people and heals the wounds He inflicted. 27Behold, the Name of the LORD comes from afar, with burning anger and dense smoke. His lips are full of fury, and His tongue is like a consuming fire....
Revelation 21:23
And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.
Revelation 22:5
There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I am He; there is no God besides Me. I bring death and I give life; I wound and I heal, and there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
Job 5:18
For He wounds, but also binds; He strikes, but His hands also heal.
Isaiah 1:6
From the sole of your foot to the top of your head, there is no soundness--only wounds and welts and festering sores not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.
Isaiah 19:22
And the LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; He will strike them but heal them. They will turn to the LORD, and He will hear their prayers and heal them.
Isaiah 24:23
The moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed; for the LORD of Hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and in the presence of His elders, He will display His glory.
Isaiah 30:13
this iniquity of yours is like a breach about to fall, a bulge in a high wall, whose collapse will come suddenly--in an instant!
Isaiah 30:14
It will break in pieces like a potter's jar, shattered so that no fragment can be found. Not a shard will be found in the dust large enough to scoop the coals from a hearth or to skim the water from a cistern."
Isaiah 33:24
And no resident of Zion will say, "I am sick." The people who dwell there will be forgiven their iniquity.
Isaiah 57:18
I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will guide him and restore comfort to him and his mourners,
Isaiah 58:8
Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will come quickly. Your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
Isaiah 60:19
No longer will the sun be your light by day, and the brightness of the moon will not shine on you; for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your splendor.
Isaiah 60:20
Your sun will no longer set, and your moon will not wane; for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and the days of your sorrow will be over.
Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives and release from darkness to the prisoners,Jeremiah 30:17
But I will restore your health and heal your wounds, declares the LORD, because they call you an outcast, Zion, for whom no one cares."
Jeremiah 33:6
Nevertheless, I will bring to it health and healing, and I will heal its people and reveal to them the abundance of peace and truth.
Hosea 6:1
Come, let us return to the LORD.
For He has torn us to pieces, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bind us up.
Hosea 6:2
After two days He will revive us;
on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence.Malachi 4:2
"But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall.
ALL GOD AND FOR HIS GLORY we now thank and praise Him for everything .... :HeartThrob:
long post sorry , but worth sharing GODS WORD , if we got ears to hear what HIS Spirit of Life is saying to us ...
Quote from: rosered on June 27, 2018, 01:11:58 PM
There is no good answer for a skeptic , they will not believe anything said . they stop their ears from hearing the truth .
Some times the truth is silent before them ..but still is there .
It's not just about skeptics, RR.
It's about interdenominational battles. Just think about all the fights between Protestant denominations. Or protestants again Catholics. Protestants don't believe Catholics are honest seeking people. No, in many cases they don't even believe they are people but just dressed up demons.
Quote from: Batty Bible Page on June 27, 2018, 01:56:37 AM
A good question I read asked at a different site years ago concerning Universalism is this. If the whole world is saved what is the point of the most evil vicious people acting out in this world? When God knows they'll still see the same paradise as those who loved him and lived righteously?
If they happen to be Calvinists, you can ask them a similar question:
Why do people have prove themselves worthy for heaven if God predestined them to spend eternity in heaven? Isn't that a waste of time?
Why is predestination for 10% the pinnacle of Godly grace, and 100% the purest form of blasphemy?
There is preacher/scholar that said something like: Let people list their 5 favorite verses and I'll be able to convict them (to death) based on the (heretical selection) of those verses.
There are many Bible verses that substantiate that we are all saved, through Christ, eventually.
The one that I use as my anchor in all of this is very simple.
Love never fails - 1 Corinthians 13:8
Jesus' death on the cross was for all. If some go to Hell, His sacrifice was not 'enough' to save everyone.
His victory was not complete, if some of us are not saved....made in His image and likeness.....with every hair on our head, counted.
That cannot be the case. Love never fails. God is Love, and when Jesus died on that cross, no greater love was ever shown, before or since, than for the Son of God to come down to earth and live and die for us.
So, I am very assured that we are all, as I like to say, going Home. Home to Heaven....one day.
D.
Quote from: Batty Bible Page on June 27, 2018, 01:56:37 AM
A good question I read asked at a different site years ago concerning Universalism is this. If the whole world is saved what is the point of the most evil vicious people acting out in this world? When God knows they'll still see the same paradise as those who loved him and lived righteously?
And, those passages that say those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. The aforementioned not only do make a habit but they conflict with the other passage that says, those who make that habit do not know God nor have his holy spirit.
An yet, Universalism teaches they're still saved by Him? :flamebreath:
Never did see anyone answer that thread. I'm recalling it from memory of years past. That isn't the copy/paste of the post.
I think that's just a simple matter of where does it say in the bible after death no hope? That's a line/sentiment from Dante's Inferno, but not in the Bible. Those who "perish" or are "destroyed" it doesn't say it's forever. Even Jesus was said to have been "destroyed" by the Pharisees.. Same word, but I forget the verse..
The only verse, I think, which could possibly be read to mean after death no hope, is when Jesus told the Pharisees that unless they "believe" they will die in their sins.. Which to me, seems to simply mean they will rise still in their sins (
initially not as joyful a resurrection as the one of faith, called the
first resurrection).
And of course no one has "everlasting life" / is saved, unless they "believe" in Jesus and the finished work of God through Him. And though it is assumed by so many that the only opportunity to "believe" is during this life and God has no power to save beyond it.. That, I believe, is a running with the Word.. Going further than what it actually says.
Which came about because by the time of the translations, the pagan/non-christian idea of afterlife torment, permeated the culture and the peoples' views. So it was translated into the bible.
Also, though it's likely been mentioned, according to the Greek, punishment is "corrective" not merely vengeance. "God is Love" 1 Jn 4:8.
God bless you, BBP! :gsmile:
Quote from: jugghead on June 27, 2018, 09:02:50 AM
I look at it this way .... if all that we knew is good and then one day one of His children came up to Him and asked, "Is there anything else other than this?" or "Is there anything other than good?"
And since God cannot lie, He would have to tell that child, "Yes, there is, but you wouldn't want to go there."
Amen, the ability to think and reason, seems, to me, to include a whole 'new' world of possibilities.. And since God cannot lie.. there was that tree, of knowing good and evil, in the midst of that first garden of life..
Quote from: jugghead on June 27, 2018, 09:02:50 AM
The child would ask, "Why?"
And God would have to say, "Because it is a hurtful place, where evil is."
Then of course, the child is going to ask "What is evil?"
Can we really know what evil is just by someone explaining it to us? I believe evil has to be seen and experienced in order to fully know the potential of it. We have to experience the spirit of the word; experience the spirit of the word evil.
And in the same way, can we really know what love is just by someone explaining it to us? Again, I believe love has to be seen and experienced in order to fully know the potential of it. And again, we have to experience the spirit of the word; experience the ....
SPIRIT OF THE WORD LOVE
The rest is history
my :2c:
Amen.. would all be
really, truly, and totally convinced?
How to create rational creatures without that tree of knowing good and evil coming about?? Is there even a way..?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 27, 2018, 01:44:17 PM
Quote from: Batty Bible Page on June 27, 2018, 01:56:37 AM
A good question I read asked at a different site years ago concerning Universalism is this. If the whole world is saved what is the point of the most evil vicious people acting out in this world? When God knows they'll still see the same paradise as those who loved him and lived righteously?
If they happen to be Calvinists, you can ask them a similar question:
Why do people have prove themselves worthy for heaven if God predestined them to spend eternity in heaven? Isn't that a waste of time?
Why is predestination for 10% the pinnacle of Godly grace, and 100% the purest form of blasphemy?
There is preacher/scholar that said something like: Let people list their 5 favorite verses and I'll be able to convict them (to death) based on the (heretical selection) of those verses.
:faint: Wow. The irony. Imagine he thinks he is standing safe in the grace (acceptance) of God.. Doesn't sound like love to me! :mshock:
Quote from: Dandelion on June 27, 2018, 03:18:24 PM
There are many Bible verses that substantiate that we are all saved, through Christ, eventually.
The one that I use as my anchor in all of this is very simple.
Love never fails - 1 Corinthians 13:8
Jesus' death on the cross was for all. If some go to Hell, His sacrifice was not 'enough' to save everyone.
His victory was not complete, if some of us are not saved....made in His image and likeness.....with every hair on our head, counted.
That cannot be the case. Love never fails. God is Love, and when Jesus died on that cross, no greater love was ever shown, before or since, than for the Son of God to come down to earth and live and die for us.
So, I am very assured that we are all, as I like to say, going Home. Home to Heaven....one day.
D.
Amen Sister D! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen..
"The TRUTH shall set you free"
Free to love others the way the Father loves us
Quote from: marie glen on June 27, 2018, 06:28:29 PM
Quote from: Dandelion on June 27, 2018, 03:18:24 PM
There are many Bible verses that substantiate that we are all saved, through Christ, eventually.
The one that I use as my anchor in all of this is very simple.
Love never fails - 1 Corinthians 13:8
Jesus' death on the cross was for all. If some go to Hell, His sacrifice was not 'enough' to save everyone.
His victory was not complete, if some of us are not saved....made in His image and likeness.....with every hair on our head, counted.
That cannot be the case. Love never fails. God is Love, and when Jesus died on that cross, no greater love was ever shown, before or since, than for the Son of God to come down to earth and live and die for us.
So, I am very assured that we are all, as I like to say, going Home. Home to Heaven....one day.
D.
Amen Sister D! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen..
Amen Dandelion!
Quote from: Patinak on June 28, 2018, 06:45:55 AM
Quote from: marie glen on June 27, 2018, 06:28:29 PM
Quote from: Dandelion on June 27, 2018, 03:18:24 PM
There are many Bible verses that substantiate that we are all saved, through Christ, eventually.
The one that I use as my anchor in all of this is very simple.
Love never fails - 1 Corinthians 13:8
Jesus' death on the cross was for all. If some go to Hell, His sacrifice was not 'enough' to save everyone.
His victory was not complete, if some of us are not saved....made in His image and likeness.....with every hair on our head, counted.
That cannot be the case. Love never fails. God is Love, and when Jesus died on that cross, no greater love was ever shown, before or since, than for the Son of God to come down to earth and live and die for us.
So, I am very assured that we are all, as I like to say, going Home. Home to Heaven....one day.
D.
Amen Sister D! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen..
Amen Dandelion!
Amen D!!!! :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :cloud9:
Quote from: lomarah on August 23, 2012, 07:04:39 AM
Welcome TAF. :)
The answer is in knowing the Father. Have you ever had Him speak to you? When you know His voice it becomes much easier to know the truth about "ET" vs "UR". He IS Love. :)
Blessings.
true...in those really quiet still moments His love is so evident.
Quote from: darryl on July 07, 2018, 05:52:13 PM
Quote from: lomarah on August 23, 2012, 07:04:39 AM
Welcome TAF. :)
The answer is in knowing the Father. Have you ever had Him speak to you? When you know His voice it becomes much easier to know the truth about "ET" vs "UR". He IS Love. :)
Blessings.
true...in those really quiet still moments His love is so evident.
:iagree: