Jude 1:13- wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
κύματα ἄγρια θαλάσσης ἐπαφρίζοντα τὰς ἑαυτῶν αἰσχύνας, ἀστέρες πλανῆται οἷς ὁ ζόφος τοῦ σκότους εἰς αἰῶνα τετήρηται. (Jude 1:13 NA28)
I believe this is in reference to false teachers. So how does a uni go about and interpret this passage?
:2c:twice dead..is the big clue they are exhibited as satan and his demons that go into'ABYSS" andthen LOF.
Yes, I agree.. false teachers, but very bad ones I think! Teaching pagan immorality it sounds like to me what with this verse and some others. The early church really had a battle with the Gnostics which groups ranged from very strict aesthetic to very loose and licentious. Because matter was thought to be the problem, what had to be overcome. Was it Peter or Paul (or maybe John) who said you could tell them from genuine believers because they said Jesus did not come in the flesh. They thought that impossible because they thought flesh itself was evil and was what we all needed to be rescued from, or actually all had to deliver their self from by knowing certain hidden wisdom or knowing. Gnosis as we know meaning knowledge.
But of course this condition, too, is temporary. If all this is proving good from evil (life from death?) I'm thinking all ranges of evil are being allowed to play out.. Otherwise He would interfere much more than He has?
Jesus said (John 12:32 "I will draw all to me".. Eph 1:10 and Col 1:20 both say all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus. " Nothing is impossible to God" Jeremiah 30:?
Matt 8:27 The men were amazed and asked, "What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!"
Hi James. Different people see different aspects of it, but I think one of the main points by many biblical/Christian universalists would be about the word 'forever' in most translations. YLT says "to the age". So it wouldn't be that there's not punishment/correction, but that it is of limited/finite duration.
Here's a thread on it from several years back that has some interesting posts in it. It was started by a former member who believed in eternal torment/damnation.
https://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/jude-13-teaches-people-who-will-be-in-thick-gloom-of-darkness-into-the-age/
God's Judgment on the Ungodly
...10These men, however, slander what they do not understand, and like irrational animals, they will be destroyed by the things they do instinctively. 11Woe to them! They have traveled the path of Cain; they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam; they have perished in Korah's rebellion.
12These men are the hidden reefs in your love feasts, shamelessly feasting with you but shepherding only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried along by the wind; fruitless trees in autumn, twice dead after being uprooted....Jude 1:13- wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
For me this verse in Jude was always referring to Cain a wandering star , he fell into sin /error by killing his brother in jealousy , his whole life [forever /age ] was an example of being banished from the presence of God ,Cain/ spear /possessed is a metaphor for was of the world [ carnal man/ like a beast God placed a mark upon ] an enmity against the Spirit , Abel was the the metaphor for the breath or spirit of God . Cain in the dark and doing evil in the darkness running away from the Light that deeds are made known a vessel of wrath serves Gods purpose and it is a broad path many go by there with .
Love One Another
11This is the message you have heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his own deeds were evil, while those of his brother were righteous. 13So do not be surprised, brothers, if the world hates you....
Genesis 4:8
Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.
2 Samuel 13:22
But Absalom did not speak to Amnon either good or bad; for Absalom hated Amnon because he had violated his sister Tamar.
Psalm 38:20
And those who repay evil for good, They oppose me, because I follow what is good.
Proverbs 27:4
Wrath is fierce and anger is a flood, But who can stand before jealousy?
Proverbs 29:10
Men of bloodshed hate the blameless, But the upright are concerned for his life.
Matthew 5:37
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' Anything more comes from the evil one.
John 8:40
But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.
John 8:41
You are doing the works of your father." "We are not illegitimate children," they answered. "Our only Father is God Himself."
1 John 2:13
I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
I would say and the end of Cains life , he will be saved , because it is not works that save us but the gift of God , and Jesus Christ died for all , not a few or some , but all ..
the chosen , Cain was chosen to be a vessel of wrath by God , just as Judas was and others are examples though the Bible for our learning , Saul was a killer , before Jesus made Him new as Paul . who would be any different ?....
God is showing us in the Bible anyone can be saved at any time , even at the end of their earthly days [forever /age /time ] for He ALONE IS GOD ..
Quote from: JamesH on February 26, 2018, 12:42:53 AM
Jude 1:13- wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
κύματα ἄγρια θαλάσσης ἐπαφρίζοντα τὰς ἑαυτῶν αἰσχύνας, ἀστέρες πλανῆται οἷς ὁ ζόφος τοῦ σκότους εἰς αἰῶνα τετήρηται. (Jude 1:13 NA28)
I believe this is in reference to false teachers. So how does a uni go about and interpret this passage?
false teachers are still 'bought of Christ'.e.g.2 Peter2:1
'But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.'
I've always found it interesting and telling that Peter,when describing these false teachers, still says that Christ has 'bought' them.If the false teachers end up in 'eternal hell' suffering everlasting torment, how could it be said of them that they have been 'bought' of Christ ?...after all, when you buy something it becomes your possession....
there's also the question of the correct translation of 'εἰς αἰῶνα' (eis aiona ) in Jude1:13 , as Jabcat pointed out, 'εἰς αἰῶνα ' literally means 'to the age"...there's a specific word in Greek for 'everlasting' and that is 'aidios'...why didnt Jude use 'aidios' in Jude1:13 and remove any doubt that the black darkness is indeed everlasting for these false teachers ?...instead Jude chose the term, 'εἰς αἰῶνα', ( eis aiona ) = to the age (or, to the 'Olam' ) .I dont see any problem in Jude1:13 for the UR believer.To the contrary, it seems like yet another evidence supporting UR.
God is doing away with evil , no evil can be in His presence , Jesus will come and destroy DEATH in every form and way it has had power over the peoples ...
Evil spirits ruling the bodies of mankind , Liars and thieves robbing God of His glory and you of your peace and rest in Christ , those must be done away with In Christ , He comes to destroy them with the breath of His coming to save you from death ,,,,
the fire is for the false to fail 2 Thess 2 The Man of Lawlessness
...7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival. 9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder,...
Job 4:9
"By the breath of God they perish, And by the blast of His anger they come to an end.
Isaiah 11:4
But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
Isaiah 30:28
His breath is like an overflowing torrent, Which reaches to the neck, To shake the nations back and forth in a sieve, And to put in the jaws of the peoples the bridle which leads to ruin.
Daniel 7:25
'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Daniel 8:25
"And through his shrewdness He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; And he will magnify himself in his heart, And he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes, But he will be broken without human agency.
Daniel 11:36
"Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
Matthew 16:28
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
the evil spirit ruling a man sitting in Gods seat will be blitzed and no more power ! Jesus comes to take back what is His place Life will reign over death ..by the Lord of heavenly hosts ..
blitz an intensive or sudden military attack.
synonyms: bombardment, bombing, onslaught, barrage; More
2.
informal
a sudden, energetic, and concerted effort, typically on a specific task.
1 Corinthians 1:28
He chose the lowly and despised things of the world, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are,
2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might.
An evil spirit in a man will never ever be allowed to rule by death again !!!!!!!!! PRAISE GOD for what HE IS DOING !!! :2c:
Amen
The Greek words are "eis aiona". To the age- not "forever".
To what age? I think the age th begins at the Great White Throne(however one may see that eschatology)
It is like being arrested, arraigned and held over to appear in court. The chains in which they are bound are (vs 6) "unto the judgement of the great day"- so they are not eternal. A person who exceeds a certain level of darkness can be
arrested (hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. 1 Cor 5:5)
restrained (Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, 10and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? 11"Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time." And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand. Acts 13)
None of these things insist that at some point beyond the court date that someone may pay their due("you shall not get out until you have paid the last cent") and that last cent is....
To be broken and contrite of heart(against thee and thee only have I sinned and done that which is evil in thy sight Ps 51), yielding to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in light and love.
1 Corinthians 15:21-28 is the nail in the coffin for ET. Every adversary will be brought into subjection, the evrything will be returned to the Father so that God will be ALL IN ALL.
Death is the last adversary. When death and sheol are destroyed in the lake of fire their will be no one left in the grave and NO REMAINING ADVERSARIES and believe me, if evil angels and humans were held in torment for eternity with no hope for redemption THEY WOULD BE ADVERSARIES and God could never be ALL IN ALL.
It is easy to say "I believe the Bible no matter what, just as it is written"- until it says something that doesnt agree with your religion ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 28, 2018, 08:56:51 AM
The Greek words are "eis aiona". To the age- not "forever".
To what age? I think the age th begins at the Great White Throne(however one may see that eschatology)
It is like being arrested, arraigned and held over to appear in court. The chains in which they are bound are (vs 6) "unto the judgement of the great day"- so they are not eternal. A person who exceeds a certain level of darkness can be
arrested (hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. 1 Cor 5:5)
restrained (Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, 10and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? 11"Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time." And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand. Acts 13)
None of these things insist that at some point beyond the court date that someone may pay their due("you shall not get out until you have paid the last cent") and that last cent is....
To be broken and contrite of heart(against thee and thee only have I sinned and done that which is evil in thy sight Ps 51), yielding to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in light and love.
1 Corinthians 15:21-28 is the nail in the coffin for ET. Every adversary will be brought into subjection, the evrything will be returned to the Father so that God will be ALL IN ALL.
Death is the last adversary. When death and sheol are destroyed in the lake of fire their will be no one left in the grave and NO REMAINING ADVERSARIES and believe me, if evil angels and humans were held in torment for eternity with no hope for redemption THEY WOULD BE ADVERSARIES and God could never be ALL IN ALL.
It is easy to say "I believe the Bible no matter what, just as it is written"- until it says something that doesnt agree with your religion ;o)
Amen, brother Eaglesway. :thumbsup:
Amen :thumbsup:may the truth set us all FREE!!!!!!!! We are His workmanship and work in progress ,
and wait on the Lord to judge everything in His proper timing !!! , we can sure rest in that hope and whatever chastening of the Lord is required HIS WILL BE DONE on earth and it is in heaven May Gods mercy be upon us all :HeartThrob:
Psalm 66:2-4
2 May God have mercy on us, and bless us: may he cause the light of his countenance to shine upon us, and may he have mercy on us.
3 That we may know thy way upon earth: thy salvation in all nations.
4 Let people confess to thee, O God: let all people give praise to thee.
Quote from: rosered on February 28, 2018, 02:25:14 PM
Amen :thumbsup:may the truth set us all FREE!!!!!!!! We are His workmanship and work in progress ,
and wait on the Lord to judge everything in His proper timing !!! , we can sure rest in that hope and whatever chastening of the Lord is required HIS WILL BE DONE on earth and it is in heaven May Gods mercy be upon us all :HeartThrob:
Psalm 66:2-4
2 May God have mercy on us, and bless us: may he cause the light of his countenance to shine upon us, and may he have mercy on us.
3 That we may know thy way upon earth: thy salvation in all nations.
4 Let people confess to thee, O God: let all people give praise to thee.
:thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
Quote from: darryl on February 26, 2018, 01:09:28 PM
false teachers are still 'bought of Christ'.e.g.2 Peter2:1 'But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.'
I dont see any problem in Jude1:13 for the UR believer.To the contrary, it seems like yet another evidence supporting UR.
Amen.. and the the "swift destruction" is not "forever" for they were bought by Christ..!
Quote from: eaglesway on February 28, 2018, 08:56:51 AM
The Greek words are "eis aiona". To the age- not "forever".
To what age? I think the age th begins at the Great White Throne(however one may see that eschatology)
It is like being arrested, arraigned and held over to appear in court. The chains in which they are bound are (vs 6) "unto the judgement of the great day"- so they are not eternal. A person who exceeds a certain level of darkness can be
arrested (hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. 1 Cor 5:5)
restrained (Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, 10and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? 11"Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time." And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand. Acts 13)
None of these things insist that at some point beyond the court date that someone may pay their due("you shall not get out until you have paid the last cent") and that last cent is....
To be broken and contrite of heart(against thee and thee only have I sinned and done that which is evil in thy sight Ps 51), yielding to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in light and love.
1 Corinthians 15:21-28 is the nail in the coffin for ET. Every adversary will be brought into subjection, the evrything will be returned to the Father so that God will be ALL IN ALL.
Death is the last adversary. When death and sheol are destroyed in the lake of fire their will be no one left in the grave and NO REMAINING ADVERSARIES and believe me, if evil angels and humans were held in torment for eternity with no hope for redemption THEY WOULD BE ADVERSARIES and God could never be ALL IN ALL.
It is easy to say "I believe the Bible no matter what, just as it is written"- until it says something that doesnt agree with your religion ;o)
:Yesss:
Great post!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on February 28, 2018, 02:25:14 PM
Amen God is doing away with evil , no evil can be in His presence , Jesus will come and destroy DEATH in every form and way it has had power over the peoples
:thumbsup:may the truth set us all FREE!!!!!!!! We are His workmanship and work in progress ,
and wait on the Lord to judge everything in His proper timing !!! , we can sure rest in that hope and whatever chastening of the Lord is required HIS WILL BE DONE on earth and it is in heaven May Gods mercy be upon us all :HeartThrob:
Psalm 66:2-4
2 May God have mercy on us, and bless us: may he cause the light of his countenance to shine upon us, and may he have mercy on us.
3 That we may know thy way upon earth: thy salvation in all nations.
4 Let people confess to thee, O God: let all people give praise to thee.
Amen Rose! :gsmile: :dsunny: