just only two most important commandent is this:
"Love God with your strengh, your mind, your body, and your heart"
and
"Love people the same way you love yourself"
But I get attack by all christian: "True but how you show love toward God? If he ask you to something but deny it, that's not love, if you don't believe in hell, you deny God's truth, if you really love God, go out and preach people the truth before it too late, if......" the list go and on and on......
and why christian keep attacking other people who don't believe in God saying thing like:
"I love you and I pray for you before it too late"
That's not love, that for saying themselve they was angry and they are right and them are wrong
come on people...it simple, you don't need to break your finger or push further God's work to prove your love God, just love him. That's all he need, Loving God is faith in itself, did you know that? If you love God, you don't need to believe or have faith, why would you have faith when you love someone? Love God mean you know he real and he will do it....simple Jesus didn't said "Have faith with God with your heart, your mind, your strenght" it said "Love"
Love is everything.. :boyheart:
2 Cor. 5:19:
18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.
20 For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, "Be conciliated to God!"
This is also a comforting statement, IceDash: Christ didn't die so God could conciliate himself with us, but died so that WE could conciliate OURSELVES with HIM.
God loved mankind, and THAT'S WHY He sent his son. So that WE would know HIS love. Not so He could love us. God LOVES us. :bigGrin:
It IS all about LOVE. :boyheart:
Quote from: IceDash on September 21, 2009, 08:56:25 AM
just only two most important commandent is this:
"Love God with your strengh, your mind, your body, and your heart"
and
"Love people the same way you love yourself"
But I get attack by all christian: "True but how you show love toward God? If he ask you to something but deny it, that's not love, if you don't believe in hell, you deny God's truth, if you really love God, go out and preach people the truth before it too late, if......" the list go and on and on......
and why christian keep attacking other people who don't believe in God saying thing like:
"I love you and I pray for you before it too late"
That's not love, that for saying themselve they was angry and they are right and them are wrong
come on people...it simple, you don't need to break your finger or push further God's work to prove your love God, just love him. That's all he need, Loving God is faith in itself, did you know that? If you love God, you don't need to believe or have faith, why would you have faith when you love someone? Love God mean you know he real and he will do it....simple Jesus didn't said "Have faith with God with your heart, your mind, your strenght" it said "Love"
Love is everything.. :boyheart:
Amen. I think getting to heaven is something, though, that has become a bit of a diversion. Salvation from sin is what it's all about per
Matthew 1:21. Coming into a fuller understanding of that simple scripture has cleared up so much confusion for me I can't even tell you.
So I see how loving God results in the salvation described in that foundational verse. Loving God results in loving others. And loving God comes from him loving us first.
There's a difference between going to heaven and being right with the Lord. Heaven is God's throne and the earth is His footstool. To be in heaven means to reign with Him per Revelation 1:5-6, Romans 5:17 and numerous other Scriptures. And that does most emphatically require discipleship until one is just like one's Master per Luke 6:40, Philippians 3:17, Colossians 3:17, 1John 2:6, et. al. Many of these Scriptures are not talking about basic entry level relationship with God that many, many people are dogmatically asserting most emphatically do. These things relate to being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ as it says in Romans 8:29 and Philippians 3:21 via the operations of the Written Word in the mouth of the believer projected thru the High Priestly ministry of Jesus as we're taught about in numerous, numerous passages of Scripture such as Hebrews chapters 3-6.
Romans 5 settled it for all men that the same men that died when the one man disobeyed were made 100% alive when Christ Jesus died and rose from the dead. However, being useful to the Master is entirely different and requires strict Biblical training with the Holy Spirit in one's own fortress of solitude of Isaiah 58, Isaiah 61, etc. with not speaking one's own words as it says in those chapters, among the other things that it says to put away in order to be the priests of the Lord, ministers of our God, repairs of the breach, restorers of paths to dwell in. Amplified Bible puts it in some of the passages as it enlarges upon their best understanding of the Hebrew and Greek where they'll make it a parenthetical comment, I'm thinking in Matthew 6, but I don't have a copy handy, so unsure if that's the correct reference, but it'll include as their best attempt at elaborating the Greek there about seeking first the Kingdom "God's ways of doing and being right." So, again, it's a difference between being an ordinary citizen and being a Jedi Master. Extremely crude way to put it, [forgive me for the crudity,] but I'm in a bit of a hurry to get off of the computer to get somewhere.
Martin you bring up a good point about heaven. The word for "heaven" is the same for "sky" so when we see "heaven" in the Bible we are seeing the example Paul spoke: the invisible things are understood by the things which are made (paraphrased). I think you understand heaven correctly. It is a status of being raised up to a being in a higher place (aka position) than we once were when we were lost.
However, most Christians, like I was taught, believe that "getting into Heaven" is opposed to "staying out of hell" and that it is the equivalent "getting into" some sort of Disneyland experience. To me that misses the point.
Being delivered from sin, having the body of death put TO death, IS to be raised to the heavenlies. Putting on the mind of Christ is to be seated with him in the higher position. This is probably an issue for another time, but when it says that Christ died, I believe that it is saying that the fact that he died means that everyone was dead (ie Christ died for those who were dead) so that those who would be brought to life (by his resurrected Spirit) can serve him in newness of life. Not everyone is alive, because deliverance from sin is that newness of life.
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2009, 07:30:51 PMBeing delivered from sin, having the body of death put TO death, IS to be raised to the heavenlies.
That's another weird ET thing. They speak of eternal life (=heaven) and death (=hell) but their dead people are very much alive. In fact I think those in their view of hell are much more aware of each second as the people in heaven.
Exactly. According to ETers immortality is not really a gift at all for some, and since it is supposedly default, you don't need Jesus to gain it. Immortality becomes something you'll wish you never had. Whereas in the Gospel the promise of resurrection to immortality is something which releases us from fear of death. It's all twisted up.
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2009, 09:54:50 PM
Exactly. According to ETers immortality is not really a gift at all for some, and since it is supposedly default, you don't need Jesus to gain it.
For them immortality is a fact for all creation. Jesus is about pain or joy.
QuoteImmortality becomes something you'll wish you never had. Whereas in the Gospel the promise of resurrection to immortality is something which releases us from fear of death.
The way you describe it, exactly fits to ET hell. There is immortality for those in hell. They don't have the slightest fear for death. On the contrary, they totally love death.
They seek death but can't find it...
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 22, 2009, 09:50:58 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 22, 2009, 07:30:51 PMBeing delivered from sin, having the body of death put TO death, IS to be raised to the heavenlies.
That's another weird ET thing. They speak of eternal life (=heaven) and death (=hell) but their dead people are very much alive. In fact I think those in their view of hell are much more aware of each second as the people in heaven.
If For Just one second Such folk were able Grasp this concept ,a whole new way of thought would begin to open
:icon_flower:
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are ***from beneath***; I am from above: ye are ***of this world***; I am not of this world.
Pro 15:24 THE WAY OF LIFE ***IS ABOVE*** to the wise, THAT HE MAY ***DEPART**** FROM HELL BENEATH ****.
Isa 14:9 Hell ***from beneath*** is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up ***THE DEAD*** for thee, even all the chief ones ***OF THE EARTH***; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and ***THE GATES OF HELL*** shall not prevail against it.
Psa 9:11-20 Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion [above]: declare among the people his doings. When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up ****FROM THE GATES OF DEATH***: That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation. The heathen are ***sunk down*** in **the pit** that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken. The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. The **wicked** shall be ***TURNED INTO HELL***, and all the nations that forget God. For the needy shall not alway be forgotPsa 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; ***their inward part is very wickedness***; their ***throat*** is an ***open sepulcher***; they flatter with their tongue.
Rom 3:13 Their ***throat*** is an ***open sepulcher***; with their tongues they have used ***deceit***; the poison of asps is under their lipsten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever. Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen** be judged** in thy sight. Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, **and now is**, when **the dead** shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that **hear** shall LIVE
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except **ye eat** the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ***ye have NO LIFE in you***.
Col 3:3 For ye are **DEAD**, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto **whited sepulchers**, which indeed **appear** beautiful outward, but are within ***full of DEAD MEN'S BONES***, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let **THE DEAD** bury their dead.
Jam 3:6 And the tongue is **a fire**, **a world of iniquity**: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, **and setteth on fire** the course of nature; and it is set on fire **OF HELL**.
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven ABOVE, and **signs** in the earth BENEATH; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Isa 65:2-6 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; Which remain among ***the graves***, and lodge in the **monuments**, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. ***These are a smoke in my nose, **A FIRE** that burneth all the day***. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Jesus actually taught a different type of Gospel than what most Christians believe.
He believed and taught that the Creator had forgiven their sins (you can see this in commentary in Matthew).
Once a person understood that God loves them and had forgiven them, they could then be obedient as a sign of this love and forgiveness.
Thats salvation or life (Knowing Gd), before you actually get to time or day of perfect.
The nations around Israel had a propensity to feed or appease their gods particularly through blood sacrifice. This is what the true God was calling them out from, to be weaned away from. Sacrifices were never intended to be a "condition" of getting to heaven, only for those who did not believe God loved and forgave them (assurance).
Man (Adam) was orignally a light being or light bearer, and after KNOWLEDGE / KNOWING (Hebrew sexuality) he was covered in skin.
Gd didn't kill and animal so they could have clothes.
At the time of Jesus there were those known as Mandeanns / John the Baptist (groups from Qumran as well), that did not believe in blood sacrifice to appease or feed Gd to gain favor for transgressions.
Gd did not exempt these people from time of perfection / heaven (when the perfect comes) because they moved beyond blood deity appeasement...they were sort of ahead of their time.
To those still captive to sacrifice among the nations, Jesus became a type of this sacrifice (not a literal sacrifice because this would violate Torah). To those of Isrel who were held captive, Jesus's teachings were supposed to enlighten them that sacrifices were never really required to appease Gd to begin with (Jer.7:22 as an example).
This was never the purpose of sacrifices or Torah.
What ends up happening some times, is that Christians try to convince people they need to bring a blood sacrifice i order to be forgiven transgressions...when that is really not the Gospel that Jesus actually preached.
Jesus preached "forgiveness of sins" (Gds emissary). When people did not or do not believe this, or take offense to this (Gospel / Gd forgives them) they go back to assurance systems such as sacrifices.
Commentary in Matt. 11:5-6 as an example;
the blind regain their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have the forgiveness of sins / good news proclaimed to them.
And blessed is the one who takes no offense at me."
Jesus did not really want to die, nor did he have to die..... if there was any other way Father could have prevented it it would have been. But, you can't force people to believe in His love and forgiveness....the messenger becomes an offense, and the cup cannot be removed.
Who is Jesus to say sins are forgiven?
Who am I to say to another their sins are forgiven (a son of Gd)?
Many people including Jews and Christians are still in the offensive stage.
In the Torah system, the sacrifice was really the man sacrificing himself (dying to flesh to be as a light being again).
Thus you can see alot of this metaphore in the writings of Paul (see commentary in Rom. 6)...ony dead people are freed from sin...die and be reborn resurrected in Jesus the "light being man" etc. etc.
:cloud9: This is the simple answer, but it's true. When you are baptized INTO His Spirit, it begins your walk with Him. We start out that way, but staying walking in His Spirit has to come from pressing in to the Word and the Spirit to hear what He wants you to do.
Once you hear, you add faith to what you heard, and you walk in the direction that was given you, so becoming a doer not just a hearer of the Word (that is Spirit). Being baptized into His Spirit actually IS heaven, ie. where we are caught up into HEAVENLY places with Him. This is why Paul said our conversation is IN HEAVEN. You can't speak out of a place you've never been.
We stay walking there and having our conversation from there, as we stay walking in whatever He told us to walk in. Jesus essentially said to Nicodemus, I'm standing here in shoe leather talking to you, but I'm in heaven.
The churches have made it a far off destination, but where the King is, by necessity there is the Kingdom, and the Kingdom is righteousness, peace and joy, which are the attributes of a PERSON, not a destination. Blessings......
Good works, Cardinal. I agree. It's all summed up in one verse (paraphrase): if while we were enemies we were reconciled by his death, how much more so having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his Life.
I just wanted to add one thing. The NT is very clear on this: it is not simply the realization of forgiveness that empowers man to be delivered from sin into good works, but the supernatural empowering of the Living God by his Holy Spirit that puts to death the body of sin, thereby delivering the prisoner from death into newness of life. It is not man who does anything good of himself, certainly not just though an intellectual realization of something.
Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 06:54:55 PM
I just wanted to add one thing. The NT is very clear on this: it is not simply the realization of forgiveness that empowers man to be delivered from sin into good works, but the supernatural empowering of the Living God by his Holy Spirit that puts to death the body of sin, thereby delivering the prisoner from death into newness of life. It is not man who does anything good of himself, certainly not just though an intellectual realization of something.
:cloud9: Amen......as many as are led by the SPIRIT of God, are the sons of God......Blessings.....
Oh, but it is the realization of Jesus's Gospel that empowers people to be free from sin (this is for those who believe in transgression of law).
NT, like any, can be interpreted a certain way.
Its not about a magical third person of a trinity. Gd wants a Holy Spirit or Marriage Union.
The only way this happens is the realization of unconditonal love and forgiveness, otherwise instead of the UNION, your trying to get to that place (which happens to all people during their lives).
True Obedience to Torah (however a person understands this) is always about recogniton of the Creator.
The only way this is possible is through a realization that Gd loves and forgives (not that their are not consequences for our actions in this present evil age).
Quote from: wilmont on September 24, 2009, 01:35:33 PM
Oh, but it is the realization of Jesus's Gospel that empowers people to be free from sin (this is for those who believe in transgression of law).
NT, like any, can be interpreted a certain way.
Its not about a magical third person of a trinity. Gd wants a Holy Spirit or Marriage Union.
The only way this happens is the realization of unconditonal love and forgiveness, otherwise instead of the UNION, your trying to get to that place (which happens to all people during their lives).
True Obedience to Torah (however a person understands this) is always about recogniton of the Creator.
The only way this is possible is through a realization that Gd loves and forgives (not that their are not consequences for our actions in this present evil age).
I would agree with the bolded blue in the sense that belief is where it starts. But the true power is the Spirit of God. Don't misunderstand me though, I don't believe in a "magical third person of the trinity." But I do believe in the very real impartation of the Godly nature by the very real Living God existing in temples not made with human hands. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God.
Christ is the Life and aionios life is to know God and his Son. How can you know him if you don't even believe in him, right? However the true power of deliverance is not by man making a realization of love, then BY HIMSELF putting to death the old man within him. Only through baptism of the Spirit is this accomplished.
Quote from: Seth on September 24, 2009, 07:02:27 PM
Quote from: wilmont on September 24, 2009, 01:35:33 PM
Oh, but it is the realization of Jesus's Gospel that empowers people to be free from sin (this is for those who believe in transgression of law).
NT, like any, can be interpreted a certain way.
Its not about a magical third person of a trinity. Gd wants a Holy Spirit or Marriage Union.
The only way this happens is the realization of unconditonal love and forgiveness, otherwise instead of the UNION, your trying to get to that place (which happens to all people during their lives).
True Obedience to Torah (however a person understands this) is always about recogniton of the Creator.
The only way this is possible is through a realization that Gd loves and forgives (not that their are not consequences for our actions in this present evil age).
I would agree with the bolded blue in the sense that belief is where it starts. But the true power is the Spirit of God. Don't misunderstand me though, I don't believe in a "magical third person of the trinity." But I do believe in the very real impartation of the Godly nature by the very real Living God existing in temples not made with human hands. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God.
Christ is the Life and aionios life is to know God and his Son. How can you know him if you don't even believe in him, right? However the true power of deliverance is not by man making a realization of love, then BY HIMSELF putting to death the old man within him. Only through baptism of the Spirit is this accomplished.
How do you know that you've been baptized by the spirit Seth?? Wondering; because I think (just from reading your posts over the years) that you are not a "speak in tongues" person.
No I'm not a speak in tongues person. Paul says that we can know if we are in the faith by examining ourselves.
I do believe some things are experiential and I do believe in some form of afterlife.
how to get to heaven ?
Paul said the kingdom of heaven/ God is peace, Joy and the Holy Spirit
how do we get those gifts of God , I do believe they are gifts given of the Lord towards us by His mercy /Grace ..
:HeartThrob: rose