Hope

[eaglesway]

I have been communicating by e-mail with someone who had no previous exposure to UR. Her response to my e-mails & web-site was interesting......

"And, about the UR summary....I think, instead, I will just write my own defense of it, using scripture I find to defend it, as well as some, at least, of the scripture you have shown me. I think I will learn much more that way. A big undertaking, but it will be interesting and challenging to do, and will make me think and explore more.

One of the quotes I will use is this:

1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge,and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhoodbehind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

If love never fails, then how can God ever leave us in hell? Perhaps you are right."

I had never applied 1 Cor 13:8 as a prooftext for UR, but now that I look at it...... I think it is one of the strongest scriptures for the salvation of all.

Love is the greatest argument against both ET and ED theology :o)

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[bushy]

Yes, Love NEVER EVER fails. God is love so love is God. :banana:

[Lazarus Short]

UR depends, ultimately, on the Character and Love of God.  :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

[dajomaco]

If we hope that love wins.
Where are we placing our hope?

[Lazarus Short]

If we hope that love wins.
Where are we placing our hope?

We direct our hope toward God, Jesus the Christ, prophecy, the Word, in the world to come.  When these things appear in their fullness, hope will of necessity, pass away.  In much the same way, faith will also no longer be needed when the Object of faith is manifest.  Of the three, only Love will remain forever.  That is why Love is the greatest.

[Seth]

Of course some of the pushback I hear revolves around the idea of free will squashing God (ie God doesn't fail, it's man that fails God by not receiving salvation through faith, rejecting the gift). The question then is will God fail to bring repentance to those who rejected?

[Seth]

Calvinists would say he doesn't fail, he just never had the intention of saving everyone in the first place.

[micah7:9]

If we hope that love wins.
Where are we placing our hope?

For me it's love...but that is just me :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Calvinists would say he doesn't fail, he just never had the intention of saving everyone in the first place.

..and brrrr! how cold! So opposite of "God is Love" and "Love never fails"!!


Amen.. "Love is patient, love is kind. ...keeps no record of wrongs... always perseveres."
Oh how we (human race) underestimate the Great and Almighty God, and how we so greatly underestimate His Great Plan of Salvation!!

[eaglesway]

The hope of the scripture is not the hope of the earth.

"I hope I get this", "I hope somebody does that", "I hope God loves me".

The hope of the scripture "never makes ashamed".

Faith is the substance of this hope. This hope is an image of an unseen thing- but it is an image of a thing that will surely become manifest, because the scriptural hope, is the divine intention of God, taking shape and form like the earth responding to the creative word, moving from chaos to "and God saw that it was good".

In the process, from "formless and void" to "and God saw it was good", hope is the guiding star, we as wise men follow it to a sure destination, the birth of the man-child within us, wrapped in swaddling clothes perhaps, but a manifestation of hope become faith, and faith become the divine nature born within. Hope realized, Joy come morning, Christ in me the Hope of Glory :o)

[eaglesway]

Calvinists would say he doesn't fail, he just never had the intention of saving everyone in the first place.

OOMG that is so insane. How could any reasonable human being call that love. 

"God loves them, but He predetermined that they would fail, fall, and be tormented forever"

It's enough to make me crazy.  :doh:

[dajomaco]

I know their ideas are just hopeless.

[marie glen]

Calvinists would say he doesn't fail, he just never had the intention of saving everyone in the first place.

OOMG that is so insane. How could any reasonable human being call that love. 

"God loves them, but He predetermined that they would fail, fall, and be tormented forever"

It's enough to make me crazy.  :doh:

    Amen!!

[Dandelion]

I agree with the original statement. Love never fails.

Jesus repeatedly tells us to forgive, 70 x7; to love the unlovable, as in the Good Samaritan; that God loves us despite ourselves, as in the Prodigal Son and on and on.

I have seen and been a part of incredible sacrifices made by humans, including someone giving their life for a stranger. So, if God is so much beyond our human fralities, how can He be any less? Won't he seek the one sheep lost, even though there are 99 still with Him?

Though new to this, once I heard of UR, I felt strongly that it was in keeping of the God I knew. The God who was with me through so many trials and never, ever let  go of me. The God who sent His only Son to live and die for us.

[sheila]

  That's HIM!   :girlheart:

[Psalm91:4]

I agree with the original statement. Love never fails.

Jesus repeatedly tells us to forgive, 70 x7; to love the unlovable, as in the Good Samaritan; that God loves us despite ourselves, as in the Prodigal Son and on and on.

I have seen and been a part of incredible sacrifices made by humans, including someone giving their life for a stranger. So, if God is so much beyond our human fralities, how can He be any less? Won't he seek the one sheep lost, even though there are 99 still with Him?

Though new to this, once I heard of UR, I felt strongly that it was in keeping of the God I knew. The God who was with me through so many trials and never, ever let  go of me. The God who sent His only Son to live and die for us.

:2thumbs:

John 13:34 ....where Jesus gives us a new commandment,
To love one another in the same way He has loved us, or just as He has loved us...is one of the most beautiful spiritual reality checks in scripture I think.

Because we all know how patient he has been with us on our journies, how merciful, how forgiving, how kind etc

It is in having experienced his love toward us, the way he has loved us so, that we then can truly love one another.

And yes,  our God is love and reconciling the whole world in Christ is absolutely in keeping with who He is....a good Father.    :) 

Edit to add......He has also, in loving us, corrected or chastised us, restored our souls when we were down and out,  given us the hope that eaglesway shared in this thread, and the list goes on.

This healing and delivering of all creation .....of the whole world .....had to start somewhere, so he called out some to get the Jubilee rolling!!  :)  and the bells of freedom in Christ ringing!!

But all of this is just the beginning of His salvation and glory which will at last, fill all the earth...heavens.  He loves everybody.....and will bring in each and every child he has created...till they are safely back home in His loving arms.

He is wonderful!       :dsunny:

[jabcat]

I agree with the original statement. Love never fails.

Jesus repeatedly tells us to forgive, 70 x7; to love the unlovable, as in the Good Samaritan; that God loves us despite ourselves, as in the Prodigal Son and on and on.

I have seen and been a part of incredible sacrifices made by humans, including someone giving their life for a stranger. So, if God is so much beyond our human fralities, how can He be any less? Won't he seek the one sheep lost, even though there are 99 still with Him?

Though new to this, once I heard of UR, I felt strongly that it was in keeping of the God I knew. The God who was with me through so many trials and never, ever let  go of me. The God who sent His only Son to live and die for us.

:thumbsup:

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

 :clapping:

[marie glen]

Won't he seek the one sheep lost, even though there are 99 still with Him?

That was eXactly my thought a few days ago.. i have a list I add to during my daily readings, any verse which supports UR, or ones which simply strike me that way even if not as obvious as others.. And the one sheep from the 99 seems to me to be a very strong support.. :smile:

[rosered]

 :HeartThrob:   

Whole  thread is  beautiful ,  anything pure   any thing  lovely dwell on these things !! practice makes  perfect /complete in the bond of Love of God /FATHER

  Phil 4


8Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right,


whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.


9The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

[lastpost]

Faith is the substance of this hope. This hope is an image of an unseen thing- but it is an image of a thing that will surely become manifest, because the scriptural hope, is the divine intention of God, taking shape and form like the earth responding to the creative word, moving from chaos to "and God saw that it was good".

whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

9The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

Music comes from the effort of the fingers;
Music comes from the sweet desire of the heart;
Music comes from the tender thoughts of the mind.
Little bird, sing on the song of the Divine!
In your Home your treasures await you refined.

[Tom]

When we say God is love to those who believe God must torture in fire forever those who die as unbelievers, they say that God must judge those who deserve to be tortured in fire forever. First of all, scripture doesn't say those who die as unbelievers will be tortured in fire forever. That's just the lie told by orthodox theology that contradicts the word of God. Secondly, judgment does not always mean condemnation as evidenced by what is foretold in the word of God about Christ's judgment of the nations which will cause those who treated Israel badly to be subjected the the figurative eonian fire of persecution while those nations who treated Israel righteously will be blessed. We are all subjected to evil to humble us, but all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross because God is love. God sacrificed his only begotten son so that we would be saved from sin and eventually even death because God is love. Christ died for the sins of the whole world because God is love. God is the savior of all mankind because God is love. Don't believe what you learned in church about God because it is a lie straight from Satan. God's ultimate plan is not to torture most of mankind in fire forever. God's ultimate plan is to be all in all because God is love.

"God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)

[rosered]

  Last post  :HeartThrob:  Lovely amen !


and Tom  :HeartThrob:   amen !God is Love

[eaglesway]

It really makes no sense.

"God must judge those who deserve to be tormented in fire forever"....well, if that's the judgment, we all deserve it..Only the grace of God has drawn us into a saving relationship with Jesus.

So, if God was able to select us to receive grace and discipleship in this age. If it is by grace through faith- and that the gift of God lest any man should boast......

Why all of the sudden must He condemn all to eternal torment who He did not select in the first place. What a monster He would have to be, suddenly slamming the door of escape to a dilemma He created in the first place, and why? Because the alarm went off,


The time limit on grace has an end but the time limit on torment has no end?

Think about that! Might be one of the most powerful arguments for universal reconciliation.

The truth is NOTHING about what the Bible says about election and predestination makes ANY SENSE unless the restoration of all things is the CENTER OF THE GOSPEL. Thats why Arminianism developed, as a counterpoint and a theory against UR, and a justification for eternal torment. That is also How Calvinism developed- it is, ultimately a justification for eternal torment.

The reason for the need of these convoluted systems of reasoning and theology is obvious. NO REASONABLE MIND, NO SENSIBLE AND COMPASSIONATE SOUL CAN COUNTENANCE THE CONCEPT OF ETERNAL TORMENT. It is an abhorence even to most of its teachers and they strain their minds to the braking point and beyond with contortions of so-called "reason" in order to bind people to it, and failing that, simply insist you MUST believe or you too will be tossed in flames forever.

Yet mercy triumphs over judgment according to the scriptures.

But according to this horrid doctrine of eternal torment and this horrid portrayal of a God who chooses people to suffer forever by not giving them(for some unfathomable reason) grace to repent- while at the same time randomly choosing others for eternal bliss.

Grace has a time limit but torment doesnt?

Please. The scripture plainly says in 1 Cor 15 that death will be anulled and every adversariy subjected and God will be all in all. It is everywhere. All over the scriptures. God will redeem and restore the entire creation and all that are in it because GRACE IS ETERNAL.   GRACE is an ELEMENT OF THE DIVINE NATURE.

If as Hebrews 1 states, Jesus is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, HOW CAN WE SEE GOD IN ANY OTHER WAY THAN CHRIST CRUCIFIED.

Arms spread wide to all, "Father forgive them they dont know what they are doing", "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me", "Behold I am making all things new".