Hi All, New here, looking for some feedback on a short paper I wrote - Please

[br0ce]

Hey all, I am br0ce (Bruce). New around these parts, have been studying the topic at hand for a few months now, seeking like minded to bounce ideas off. Would like to start with the following paper that I wrote for my Growth Group. The growth group is a group of people from my church that get together and talk about the last weeks message and how it pertains in their life, etc. The church is a non-denominational type church in Vista California called North Coast Church. We have about 7K members, the pastors are super laid back, and I never here about hell fire and brimstone. Obedience is heavily stressed, which is cool, and the teachers are purposely un-conventional in their approach. It is a very welcoming place for new believers. The sermon and topic were about "how big is your God" and the visual vehicle for this was the pastor smashing his T.V. with a sledge hammer making the analogy that just because you do not understand something (how a T.V. works) you do not throw it out. He contrasted that with a toaster which he understood and made light of worshiping the simple things that we understand. The sermon can be found if one wanted to see it, we record all sermons, do a Goggle search if interested.

Any comments about this paper would be awesome - is it lame? is it subtle enough for a group of non-universal reconcilliationists - I do not want to hit them over the head, just burn a possible synapse path of curiosity - plant a seed if you will. I will turn in and discuss with the group on Thursday the 19th of Jan. I also sent a copy to the pastors of the church.

Note: the original is formatted with the "my God is so big..." on the left and the verses on the right.

How big is my God.

My God is so big that he created all things:

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Col. 1:16)

My God is so big that he not only created all things, but is actually the "glue" that holds all things together:

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:17

My God is so big that he not only created all things, and holds all things together, but also loves his creation:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son... Jhn 3:16

My God is so big that he not only created all things, holds all things together, loves his creation, but also wants all men to be saved.

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1Ti 2:3,4   

My God is so big that he not only created all things, holds all things together, loves his creation, wants all men to be saved, but also has provided a way for all men to be saved:

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. Jhn 12:32   

My God is so big that he not only created all things, holds all things together, loves his creation, wants all men to be saved, has provided a way for all men to be saved, but also will eventually fulfill his will to save all men so that he may be "all in all":

When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all 1Cr 15:28


My Big God:

All things were created by him, for him and in him all things are held together with so much love that he gave his one and only Son to draw all men back to himself so that he may eventually fulfill his will, which is to be; "all in all".

ALL IN ALL...
It just doesn't get any bigger than that!

[Phillip Macdonald]

Hello Bruce,   Sorry you didn't get the feedback you were asking for.  I believe the site was down for a while undergoing some changes this week.

I think it was a good first step in that it is purely Scripture which will at least help people remember, 'hmmm, the Bible does say that doesn't it?'  It hits all the basics and follows the logical path to believe in a bigger God than the one we have been allowed to believe in.  I have also found that appealing to their own statements during sermons often catch them believing this with their hearts.

How did your Thursday meeting go with your "Growth Group"?  What kind of response did you get?

It was encouraging to hear about your church's openness and how they appear to be moving towards having "ears to hear".

grace and peace,
phillip
godslovewins.com

[br0ce]

Thanks for the response Philip, I sure appreciate it. It is kinda scary swimming in these waters alone. Turns out that last Thursday was very informal and we never made it past the surface, getting to know you stuff. I did manage to give a copy to the leaders wife who seems to be the most interested in digging deeper into the bible than all the other members. We shall see if anything sprouts, I will not pursue, just be open should the opportunity arise. It is kind of lame cause I come each week with tons of material, eager to get into the book, but the group seems focused on surface life application of the pastors message. Thanks again for the feedback.

[Phillip Macdonald]

There's a very unusual "vibe" if you will, in the church.  They are allowed to say things that sound very universalistic but we are not allowed to believe them.  For instance our pastor says over and over, "God is on a mission to restore all of His creation and He is making all things new".  But then when you think it looks pretty safe to come out and actually grab hold of it or declare you really believe what they are teaching they respond with, "What ARE you saying?" 

Sometimes I liken the doctrine of ECT to that thing in the garage you never use.  When someone threatens to throw it away we react and list 50 reasons it should stay.  Pastors rarely preach on it but when Rob Bell threatened it the theologians were fired up with all the reasons the church needs to keep it!

But the truth, I believe, is coming to the surface from within and it is people like you who are beginning to push on the traditions of men that are bringing this truth to light.

I just encourage you to continue to share your heart and the changes it has made in your life, your testimony of its power!

[jabcat]

But the truth, I believe, is coming to the surface from within and it is people like you who are beginning to push on the traditions of men that are bringing this truth to light.

I just encourage you to continue to share your heart and the changes it has made in your life, your testimony of its power!

Good job fellas.   :2thumbs:

[Molly]

I really liked your paper, Bruce--the way you formatted it.

It needs to be read out loud.  Very nicely put together--the way it starts small--how big is my God--and grows into a crescendo--and then ends small again--all in all.

I liked it!

[br0ce]

Thank you Molly, I appreciate the props.

Phillip, you pastor seems pretty on track with his statement, mine is still pretty ambivalent with statements such as last weeks: "coming from a background with a hell option" - he was referring to how he was raised, but what does that mean? Pretty non-committal in the least. Does he no longer believe in that option? Is he contrasting his background with his current beliefs? are they different? I did get the other pastor (we have 2 pastors that take turns) to admit that he did not think that the Lazarus passage is not about hell when I asked him about 6 months ago, (I was not enlightened as to Universal Reconciliation or I would have pursued the issue further - it is really one of the passages that led me here... knew there was something fishy about that one being about hell... just did not jive... )

Anyway, thank for the comments...

[Phillip Macdonald]

Our pastor speaks the UR language but I believe if we pushed on him we would get qualifications like, "well, of course I am talking about all people who let God make them new.  He is willing but He won't force people.  Redemption is offered to ALL people." 

But again, at least they are speaking it.  I'll take it for now!  Maybe one day soon their hearts will inform their minds that what they have been led to say is actually true!

[br0ce]

Got this in my in basket this morning, it is from the growth group leader. Looks like some interest perhaps: I did give his wife a copy of the paper that I began this thread with...


Bruce,
  I would like to get together with you before we meet on Thurs. Coffee tomorrow night? This weeks sermon made me think of you and some of our conversations last quarter. I want to get together and discuss.
Let me know,

[Phillip Macdonald]

That's awesome Bruce,
I will pray for that conversation.  Let us all know how it goes!

[br0ce]

Well, I am sorry to report that "I want to get together and discuss" actually meant telling me that my views that are not congruent with the churches statement of faith (EFCA Statement of Faith) are not welcome in the group. I spent a little bit of time defending my point of view, but in the end agreed to keep quiet. What a bummer, and really if you read the paper that I began this post with, all my points are biblical. Anyway I am bummed what can I say...

[Beloved Servant]

Don't cry for them, just brush the dust from your feet, it's not their time yet.

[Phillip Macdonald]

Bruce, sorry to hear it did not end up being true interest.  I was a bit suspicious, having been "called into the office" and warned a few times myself.   As a leader he must tow the line.  One of our pastors confessed, "if I embraced that I would be finished, I would lose my job".

I realize that this guy is not a pastor but he is in leadership and there is a lot of pressure to conform and therefore fear.

We are attending a new church and have decided not to bring it up but just to watch and pray.  if you listen you will notice how the pastors are walking right into the concepts of UR without realizing it.  So God is at work, just be patient and rejoice when you hear them speak the truth, unbeknownst to them.  I believe it really is happening.  It won't be long before their minds catch up with their hearts!

grace and peace to you...

[istalcup]

Hey all, I am br0ce (Bruce). New around these parts, have been studying the topic at hand for a few months now, seeking like minded to bounce ideas off. Would like to start with the following paper that I wrote for my Growth Group. The growth group is a group of people from my church that get together and talk about the last weeks message and how it pertains in their life, etc. The church is a non-denominational type church in Vista California called North Coast Church. We have about 7K members, the pastors are super laid back, and I never here about hell fire and brimstone. Obedience is heavily stressed, which is cool, and the teachers are purposely un-conventional in their approach. It is a very welcoming place for new believers. The sermon and topic were about "how big is your God" and the visual vehicle for this was the pastor smashing his T.V. with a sledge hammer making the analogy that just because you do not understand something (how a T.V. works) you do not throw it out. He contrasted that with a toaster which he understood and made light of worshiping the simple things that we understand. The sermon can be found if one wanted to see it, we record all sermons, do a Goggle search if interested.

Any comments about this paper would be awesome - is it lame? is it subtle enough for a group of non-universal reconcilliationists - I do not want to hit them over the head, just burn a possible synapse path of curiosity - plant a seed if you will. I will turn in and discuss with the group on Thursday the 19th of Jan. I also sent a copy to the pastors of the church.

Note: the original is formatted with the "my God is so big..." on the left and the verses on the right.

How big is my God.

My God is so big that he created all things:

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Col. 1:16)

My God is so big that he not only created all things, but is actually the "glue" that holds all things together:

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:17

My God is so big that he not only created all things, and holds all things together, but also loves his creation:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son... Jhn 3:16

My God is so big that he not only created all things, holds all things together, loves his creation, but also wants all men to be saved.

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1Ti 2:3,4   

My God is so big that he not only created all things, holds all things together, loves his creation, wants all men to be saved, but also has provided a way for all men to be saved:

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. Jhn 12:32   

My God is so big that he not only created all things, holds all things together, loves his creation, wants all men to be saved, has provided a way for all men to be saved, but also will eventually fulfill his will to save all men so that he may be "all in all":

When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all 1Cr 15:28


My Big God:

All things were created by him, for him and in him all things are held together with so much love that he gave his one and only Son to draw all men back to himself so that he may eventually fulfill his will, which is to be; "all in all".

ALL IN ALL...
It just doesn't get any bigger than that!

[istalcup]

Hi Bruce, 

I live in North SD County too, and would like to talk with you about our UR faith -
Corky

[Seth]

Hey all, I am br0ce (Bruce). New around these parts, have been studying the topic at hand for a few months now, seeking like minded to bounce ideas off. Would like to start with the following paper that I wrote for my Growth Group.

I know this is from a long time ago, but thought I would chime in some encouragement. I think it's really clever and it made me smile.  :HeartThrob: I like how you are building the concept scripturally. I might just add one scripture to it:

God is so big he nothing can stop him from doing whatever he wants: "My council shall stand, I shall do all my pleasure" Isaiah 46

For a short tract, a good challenge is what I call the UR dilemma:

   1.   God can do anything he wants: Matthew 19:26
   2.   God will do anything he wants: Isaiah 46:9-11, Prov. 19:21, Daniel 4:35
   3.   God wants to save the whole world: 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 John 2:2

The only way out of that is the Limited Atonement doctrine of Calvanism which is easily disprovable.

[Seth]

Well, I am sorry to report that "I want to get together and discuss" actually meant telling me that my views that are not congruent with the churches statement of faith (EFCA Statement of Faith) are not welcome in the group. I spent a little bit of time defending my point of view, but in the end agreed to keep quiet. What a bummer, and really if you read the paper that I began this post with, all my points are biblical. Anyway I am bummed what can I say...

That was to be expected. Don't be disheartened. They will remember the word you brought them. Ultimately I have found that the message you bring will only be planted in ready soil, and that is according to the providence of God.