Hello all,
I have been active in other online spiritual forums and actually heard about yours some time ago. In fact, you may be surprised that where I heard about it first was on CARM - either via a private message (before they were banned there) or perhaps in the chat room, I can't recall. Still, it has taken me a while to make my way over here.
Just in case Mr. Slick is reading, let me remind him that I am NOT a Christian Universalist. I am a New Ager visiting not only CARM, but now this board too on occasion. I believe in OPEN discussion of all spiritual topics. When a topic is swept under the rug, you can bet it will find another way to surface, so it really does no good to suppress it. In fact, suppression can have quite the opposite effect. Having spent so much time on CARM and in non-Biblical universalist settings, I'm actually curious what you all have to say, even though I'm at peace with what I believe. Feel free to question me too, I don't mind. After all, I'm used to it, given where my journeys have taken me online.
It is indeed true that I embrace what many might characterize as New Age beliefs, as I don't believe in fallen angels anymore, and I believe that we, like the angels, are divine creative expressions of God, inseparable from the One who created us. I also firmly believe in reincarnation.
I was raised an evangelical by dedicated evangelical parents, one of whom was the child of a very charismatic evangelical minister. One of the churches I attended as a child had a Calvinist minister, so I was exposed to those teachings too. I always questioned what I was being taught about a wrathful torturer God (and even worse, the God who arbitrarily throws souls onto the fire), as long as I can remember I questioned, even writing in a journal at the age of 13 "What if God is an imposter?".
Those years left their mark, and I was so wounded by exposure to fear-based beliefs, never really seeing the love of God, I basically went spiritually numb for about 18 years as an adult. Until I was jolted suddenly awake by a brief but powerful potentially life threatening health crisis. It was then that I realized I had no spiritual anchor to lean upon in times of crisis, and it was also abundantly clear that the Biblical inerrantist, hell-based indoctrination of my youth had left me exposed to tremendous fear. It seems I feared the beliefs could be true JUST enough to fear hell, but NOT enough to be 100% convinced I was saved. And the gap between doubt and certainty in that belief system is like literally hanging over the abyss of a fiery pit. Made even worse if you suspect you may not be one of God's "elect".
In anguished doubt, I uttered the most sincere request of my entire life. In tears, I asked my Creator to show me the way. Within days, amazing things began to happen, exposing me to the Love of God in ways I never began to conceive. This is when I learned more about some New Age ideas, which emphasized Love and personal empowerment. Even so, I was still plagued with fear for many years. I experimented with various spiritual paths during that time frame, including very sincerely pursuing evangelical Christianity for a time. But as I studied the Bible, in an attempt to accept its complete inerrancy, I cried many a tear in Womens Bible Study expressing my doubts. Ultimately, I feel it was my God-given CONSCIENCE guiding me to doubt, though I was told of my "wicked" and "deceitful" heart in those pages. One day I even met with a minister at the evangelical church I attended, who utterly shocked me by saying that not all the ministers in that church had 100% belief in hell and then proceeded to quote a verse from the Bible supporting that. Yet this was a church preaching a traditional evangelical message. Not really emphasizing hell all the time, but not denying it either.
Still, I continued to doubt, feeling like I was literally standing at the gates of hell more than once, so strong was the indoctrination of my youth. It seems I had to fully face my fears of hell straight on, fully understand the depths of despair one would feel if that was your final destination, to FINALLY comprehend that NO Loving God could possibly create such a place for dearly beloved created souls, not under ANY circumstances. Once you face it (which I really wouldn't wish on anyone), you simply KNOW. And that's how God's Love set me free, by allowing me to go to a very dark place, such that I could truly see and some day spread the Light.
My conservative evangelical family, those of whom are still in the church, have been concerned about me for years, and they pray for me daily. They feel I have been deceived. One day after a conversation with my evangelical sister, I posted something on CARM in their New Age forum regarding her concerns regarding my going to hell. It's funny how I found CARM. I mentioned to a friend that I wished I could find a place where I could ask evangelicals some questions. And out of the blue, within ONE day, a friend randomly told me about CARM, knowing NOTHING about my request.
When I first posted on CARM, I actually intended to title my post "How could you be happy in heaven with loved ones suffering in hell", but then for some reason I used the title "If hell exists, everyone is going there". Within a day, I regretted that title, thinking it a bit TOO strong, as that really was not my style. But you know what, I think the title itself is what has launched that post, submitted almost 2 years ago, to the #1 most read post on ALL of CARM (and #3 based in replies) - not just #1 on the New Age forum, but on ALL the forums of CARM, something that amazes me to this day. And I continue to respond there when I can, also posting on various other New Age topics. So far, New Agers are not banned over there, and I am not being elusive over there or here when I say that is what I am. I truly believe a New Age is dawning, and humanity is about to make a quantum leap in consciousness. I believe Jesus was trying to show us we could ALL be like him, but we simply did not understand, and in some cases, the message was obscured. That is my personal belief, although I do deeply honor and respect yours, which I know are very devoutly held. I do realize how precious that sacrifice of Jesus no doubt is to all of you, as it is to non-Universalist evangelicals, and also how it connects you to the Love of God, even though the evangelical path never really managed to do that for me.
I did briefly attend a liberal Christian universalist church for a short time, but they didn't really provide Biblical evidence as you apparently do here. They were not Biblical inerrantists. It was there that I first heard of Carlton Pearson, the ex-evangelical minister who had a revelation that hell does not exist and lost his entire church. I actually had a wonderful conversation with Carlton at a workshop about a year ago, and he and I both recognize how deep is the need for healing of ex-evangelicals. People leaving the evangelical church are like the walking wounded, like spiritual refugees, with no place to go. The ex-evangelical forums are often filled with atheists, who will pounce on your every word, I can tell you, accusing you often rather bitingly of still being "addicted to spirituality" if you choose to cling to ANY belief in God at all. It is for that reason, I'm actually working on a new forum, and Carlton is aware of it too and may even link to it from his site, a place for what I call "spiritual refugees" to heal. It isn't quite off the ground yet, but I can let you know when it is, if you are interested.
I'm also posting quite a lot on the Oprah discussion forum at the moment. I'm a thoughtful "New Ager", just so you know. I don't accept ANY belief system hook, line and sinker with blind allegiance. I am known to question New Age and non-New Age beliefs alike on Oprah and a couple other places I visit online. I'm not a blind follower of what some have called "the Church of Oprah" either, although I do participate in various ways over there. I suspect she was a spiritual refugee once too, and may still bear the wounds of that journey, as do many who have left the evangelical church.
I have felt the urge to post my question about heaven on Oprah for quite some time, essentially similar to what has garnered so much attention on CARM. When she elevated the visibility of her discussion forum to her front page (we're talking www.oprah.com (http://www.oprah.com) under the heading "Everyone's Talking About" - you can't get MORE visible than the FRONT page of Oprah ), I was led by a discussion on another thread to finally post the topic under the title "What will you sacrifice at the gates of heaven: your heart or your soul?". You can see the entire thread at http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/84994;jsessionid=ac11067f30d86f963f0859714500a418f5b9fc021735.e3qNbNuOaNmPe34Tch0Mc38NaNf0?start=0&tstart=0 (http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/84994;jsessionid=ac11067f30d86f963f0859714500a418f5b9fc021735.e3qNbNuOaNmPe34Tch0Mc38NaNf0?start=0&tstart=0)
And what is SO ironic is that today for a time it rose to #1 on her "hottest threads" list (right now it's #2), just as a similar topic did on CARM. This is not MY doing. It's God's doing. I am just a willing vessel, allowing God's Love to be expressed through me. The question of how you can be happy in heaven with loved ones in hell is just about the toughest one around, in my opinion, for it is a paradox. After more than 1200 replies on CARM, they still haven't adequately addressed it over there, which is why they keep trying. Yes, the criticism is harsh over there at times, the arrows very pointed, but my shield is the undiminished LOVE of GOD. And you know what, I have also connected with some extremely loving evangelicals there too, some of whom I believe have come to care about me quite a lot - such is the greatness of the Love of God, reaching out to EVERYONE, wherever they are. So before you become too critical of the CARMites, know that there are those over there who are doing God's work in their own way, even if not the Christian Universalist way, whether they be evangelicals or New Agers or other faiths.
I'm not sure how often I will post here, but I did notice that the Biblical Christian Universalist voice is lacking on Oprah, and it deserves to be heard. Unlike some, I don't believe in the suppression of ANY voice. So I put a post last night in the guest forum letting you know what is going on over there. Someone posted over there already (I suspect from here), and quite honestly I had never heard the interpretation of some verses in Revelation that this person gave, who is now engaged in hand to hand combat (with a sword and shield of pure LOVE of course, so it's ok). I immediately shared the verse with my evangelical mother, and she didn't know about it either.
I feel quite at peace with my current beliefs, but I must say that from my perspective, I think you all may have found a key to Christianity truly living in brotherhood in a tolerant world, one where the Love of God reigns supreme. I'm not exactly sure yet what you all believe, as I have been denied your voices in the particular forum where I have spent most of my time and never heard them in my youth, but it will be interesting to hear what you have to say. All of my own posts on hell have come straight from the heart, although I wouldn't be surprised if some of your words echo my own, albeit perhaps in slightly different ways given what you believe.
Reaching out to all of you in the pure, untainted, undiminished Love of God,
BridgeBuilder
Hi bridge builder,
It's been years since I really studied what is considered "new age" and have thrown out anything I was ever taught about it because it was evangelical christianity through which I had any knowledge of the term and do not trust the accuracy of that.
Anyway, from my perspective of Universalism, God has you on the journey he has you on, there is no concern of "saving" you from hell so there is no point in trying to convince you that you are deceived.
That however does not mean that it is of no use to tell you the wonderful message of love that is in the bible.
I do want to ask about your view of God. Does scripture play much of a part in your current view? It appears you have been in the bible a lot. It also appears that you have struggled with the relationship between scripture and what religious organizations tell you it means.
I am simply wondering if God has inspired you to see what he wants to tell you within its pages.
Hi Paul,
You know something that is very interesting. Until I visited CARM almost 2 years ago, I had banished ALL the Bibles in my house to a box in my garage, so painful did I find it to even LOOK at a Bible, let alone open it. But you know what, once I started talking to the evangelicals, I got the Bible out again (mostly to search for ammunition!). And yes, as a byproduct, I'm being led to amazing things in its pages, seeing things in ways I never did before. I'm also being led to look in other spiritual sources, including the Gnostic texts. But yes, I do feel I'm being led to re-visit my interpretation of the Bible, that is very true. It's not locked away in a box anymore. With that said and with all due respect, I personally still do find things in the Bible that I find highly objectionable, things that violate my conscience in very direct ways. That's why I'm not a Biblical inerrantist, but I certainly do believe God speaks within its pages.
In peace,
BridgeBuilder
Yes, God is in us, and part of His Creation. So gnosticism, has somewhat of a biblical defense, which is why many Christians were tempted to gnostic views in the beginning. The inner man grows, it is God working in you, etc.
The problem is, gnostic understanding is directly related to self and not God. The more gnostic a person is, the more they shun what is outside their self, and the only reality is the subjective perception which comes from self. Self is not God, but that is the true gnostic creed which believes, "I am God."
Take this to the bigger picture and it is not a slippery slope in the bigger picture, if one thinks their self as God, then picture the problems we have where none are accountable or responsible and if they are there is not guilt against what is good because good is subjective to self since we are God. This is what the early Christians had experienced in Rome and why it was declared heresy.
There is nothing wrong with recognizing we are Children of God, that we are gods subject to the Father God and His Son. We can know that God works within us growing us outward.
As long as a gnostic understands the pitfall of their belief and has some how found a boundary to protect them from self, then it is quite alright.
Hi BB
Welcome to TM
I must say I enjoyed reading your opening post and I truly sense a spirit of love and tolerance. You do seem to be blessed with a gentle and philosophical approach that is well worded and I look forward to getting to know you.
Of all you said, probably the only this I would disagree on is the reincarnation bit but not to say you are wrong, who knows - you may be right.
As for new age that has become a taboo anathema thingy in the evangelical community and maybe the stuff you shared is treated as such and labelled - man Americans love labels.
In fact if Jesus came back today, He would likely be called a new ager by the church.
Many have wrestled with the hell doctrines and folk are soo stubborn to let go in spite of the biblical evidence we bring which BTW is verifiable with online lexicons and online bibles.
I am moving this thread to "discussions on UR" as it is really more than an introduction.
Be blessed here and in your love outpouring esp to the confused.
Hi BridgeB we have already met, I am pnuema3 (someone already had pnuema, stinkin rat :laughing7:) on Oprah's board so I had to add the 3.
Somethings up with the board over there right now, it won't let me post, maybe I am banned already :laughing7:
Just joking
Nice to meet you pneuma. The Oprah board was just extensively upgraded, and they are still working through glitches. It is NOT the most stable board in the world at the moment (I'm sure you'll interpret THAT in multiple ways! lol)...
Your voices are so needed over there. I may have my own unique beliefs, but I do sense that yours is a type of tolerant Christianity very few of us know anything about, and I so appreciate that your beliefs do NOT diminish the Love of God.
In peace,
BridgeBuilder
willieH: Hi Scott! :happygrin:
Quote from: pneuma on August 08, 2008, 02:46:27 AM
Hi BridgeB we have already met, I am pnuema3 (someone already had pnuema, stinkin rat :laughing7:) on Oprah's board so I had to add the 3.
Somethings up with the board over there right now, it won't let me post, maybe I am banned already :laughing7:
Just joking
Hey Scott! I thought that was YOU! I even said Hi!
I went as willieHL... some
other "stinkin rat" already had willieH! :laughing7:
peaCe...
willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on August 08, 2008, 03:22:11 AM
willieH: Hi Scott! :happygrin:
Quote from: pneuma on August 08, 2008, 02:46:27 AM
Hi BridgeB we have already met, I am pnuema3 (someone already had pnuema, stinkin rat :laughing7:) on Oprah's board so I had to add the 3.
Somethings up with the board over there right now, it won't let me post, maybe I am banned already :laughing7:
Just joking
Hey Scott! I thought that was YOU! I even said Hi!
I went as willieHL... some other "stinkin rat" already had willieH! :laughing7:
peaCe...
willieH :cloud9:
Don't ya just hate it when other people steal your name :laughing7:
And I just said hi back at ya over there.
Thanks for the supportive responses to my introduction. And by the way, I should probably note that I'm a woman, as for some reason people often associate "bridge building" with a man (and I don't take offense at that, lol). I've been accused at times of being a fine descendant of Eve, let me tell you, completely deceived. :laughing7: I think it's over on Oprah at the moment that someone thought I was a man, not here, but I thought I would let you know anyway.
Someone spoke of the Gnostic views. First, I should be clear that I am NOT a Gnostic, although I have read some things in a couple of Gnostic gospels which have reached me. I also think how one conceives of God is important when trying to understand the notion of being inseparable from God. I do NOT believe we are all little independent "gods" running around, in defiance of a sovereign God, not by a long shot.
And I'm kind of an unusual "New Ager" (I really don't like all the connotations of that term, but it's the closest label I can find for my basic beliefs in a New Age dawning). More and more New Agers these days are beginning to believe in the highly personal Love of God, for example, not some impersonal force, as is often attributed to New Age beliefs. So it is very important for me to emphasize that I feel I have a personal relationship with God, who I can interact with as a distinct entity, who I do respect and honor, yet still who wants me to realize that I'm inseparable from God, that God is present in me too. My beliefs regarding such things are rather sublime, but really not all that far off from some of what you believe, I suspect. It has more to do with God's omnipresence than my trying to take ANY power away from God. Does that make sense? It has to do with acting in complete alignment with that part of God which is within me. And I have found I am becoming a better person each and every day this way, as God gently helps me to behave more and more in accordance with the true Love of God.
And Willie, I absolutely LOVE your tagline. I have often used a similar argument myself. How could God be duped into abandoning so many beloved created beings for eternity? It simply makes no sense. Would God not be wise enough or powerful enough to take on the challenge, in that scenario (which I must admit as a New Ager I do not believe is really what happened - more on that later - again, I'm really NOT one of you...).
I'm beginning to see a potential interesting commonality in our beliefs, even though I'm still NOT a Christian Universalist, let me be very clear on that (I say that partially for the benefit of Matt Slick, and I really mean it, as I suspect he lurks here at times). What I see though is that I'm guessing you believe God allowed the introduction of what you would call "evil" into the world for a reason. And I feel quite the same about what I would probably label "darkness", as I don't believe in absolute evil, just places where the light doesn't shine quite as brightly. Some New Agers today believe that the "darkness" only exists to allow the Light to shine all the more brightly, and that's its purpose. In the end, nothing will be lost, we will all see the undiminished Love of God even MORE profoundly, precisely because of the darkness.
I was thinking about this concept one day recently, and a song "randomly" came on my radio where they were singing "We did it all for the Glory of Love". That's why darkness exists, to expose the Love, even in the most unlikely of circumstances. You may not share this belief precisely, I can understand that. We should probably talk of your views about Satan, I'm curious about that. I no longer believe in Satan, just so you know, nor do I believe a third of the host of heaven would rebel against the God I have come to know, and I believe the concept of "war in heaven" is an oxymoron. What are your thoughts on this matter? (Note: I haven't had a chance to read much on this forum, so if this is already addressed elsewhere, feel free to point me in that direction...).
In peace,
BridgeBuilder
P.S. By the way, I think you are already stirring things up over on Oprah. But I suspect it's only a matter of time before some of the CARMites show up too, who probably will conclude I really MUST be "an agent of Satan" to invite you all over there. But you know what, I'm really curious to hear what you have to say, that's what suppression of a topic does (an unintended consequence of Mr. Slick's decision, isn't that interesting?), and it's part of the reason I invited you over there. God wants this discussion out in the open, not suppressed. God works in mysterious ways. Maybe Matt will begin to see that too. In fact, I really hope he does. I have actually appreciated my time on CARM, and I'm not done there yet (unless New Agers or anyone who doesn't believe in hell or anyone who even TALKS to universalists are banned next), but I think it's time for people to get their views out in the open, whatever they may be, expressed in a thoughtful, logical, courteous way.
Hi BB--
Oddly enough I just learned the other day that Jesus used the term 'new age' first. Maybe it was in anticipation of your arrival. :Sparkletooth: I found this in the amplified Bible. First, I'll show you where Paul refers to 'this age.'
Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].
Then, Jesus tells his disciples about the 'new age' and their place in it.
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, in the new age [the Messianic rebirth of the world], when the Son of Man shall sit down on the throne of His glory, you who have [become My disciples, sided with My party and] followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
Oh, and our place in the new age, too.
Mat 19
29And anyone and everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for My name's sake will receive many [even a hundred] times more and will inherit eternal life.
Hey there BridgeBuilder,
Heard about TM on CARM? That's too funny. Sorry you had to go through all that religion before finding God's true nature.
Loved what you said about suppressing discussion. That always backfires :thumbsup:
Welcome to the tent...
Blessings,
- Byron
I thought I'd replied to this thread. Please forgive my oversight. Welcome to Tentmaker. You seem like a more well balanced new ager than a lot of new agers that I've known, many of whom -- in their own way -- have been more dogmatic and subject to their self formulated dogmatisms than the proverbial parody of a Christian fundamentalist who believes that the original language of the Bible is within the pages of the KJV. What begins as genuine growth often degenerates into the very obsurdities that many of us had originally ran away from, by whatever means that we ran away from them. Among Christian Universalists, you'll find both people that have a take it or leave it attitude about certain aspects of the Bible, and people like myself who hold to the inerrancy of the Scriptures but who've come to radically different conclusions about it's message when it's been correctly translated and put into it's proper perspective from passage to passage as revealed to us through the Holy Spirit. In some ways, I'm probably the biggest Biblical "fundamentalist" of the group although with the Universalism and various different perspectives about other things from the norm, if this were a different century then the Jerry Falwells and Matt Slicks of the day would have already ordered my execution for damnable heresy. To me: the Book just says what it says, and one doesn't need to doubt the integrity of the Book, but to simply get to the bottomline of what it's really consistently saying from the perspective and through the Biblical filter of the redemptive sacrificial work of Jesus Christ and how the Bible relates everything of it's own importance back to the significance, purpose, and design of those events in the grand scheme of an eternal redemption that's taken thousands of years to accomplish for absolutely all life everywhere. Translational fallacies are a part of the mix, unfortunately, or happily with some of the passages from the KJV that could be brought up about various things.
As far as Satan, I've personally been forced into exorcism situations far too many times against my will to doubt the existence of someone being out there. If it's not the proverbial third of the heavenly hosts, it's something, whether disembodied human spirits of previous ages or whatever. I never go looking for that stuff. Usually if there's something demonic in the life of someone that I'm around, if they stick around me very long then the Holy Spirit in my life tends to expose 'em for the purpose of dealing with 'em. And whether the movies reflect what really happens as far as the growls, altered voices, running off on all fours, or whatever, or whether these spirits have latched onto the cultural imagery to try to intimidate the Christians that are the most equipped towards their expulsion, I've not yet been able to determine that. The few exorcisms in the New Testament that there are seem to indicate that some of the theatrics that they'll try to get into to try to intimidate or whatever is something that's gone on for at least a couple thousand years. And I am aware of the difference between that and someone that needs antipsychotic medication. The difference is even more pronounced than the differences between a scratch and gangrene. So, I can vouche for the Bob Larson type of stuff. I just can't agree with the abuse he dishes out towards those spirits. Several chapters of the New Testament indicate to me that Christ's atoning Blood is applicable to them too and that they can be led to reconciliation with God through Jesus Christ, cleansing of their ungodliness, and a sending off to heaven. If it winds up being a drawn out exorcism, that's where I always go with it. I go into the whole Billy Graham routine with 'em...and it works :Sparkletooth:
Hello BridgeBuilder,
I thought I had said hello earlier, but it seems I had it on a different window and pressed preview and not post. So when I was speaking on Gnostics, I was not referring to you, but your desire to read the gnostic gospels. I was only giving some background on what a Gnostic believed and why the term is seen in such a negative view.
QuoteI was thinking about this concept one day recently, and a song "randomly" came on my radio where they were singing "We did it all for the Glory of Love". That's why darkness exists, to expose the Love, even in the most unlikely of circumstances. You may not share this belief precisely, I can understand that. We should probably talk of your views about Satan, I'm curious about that. I no longer believe in Satan, just so you know, nor do I believe a third of the host of heaven would rebel against the God I have come to know, and I believe the concept of "war in heaven" is an oxymoron. What are your thoughts on this matter? (Note: I haven't had a chance to read much on this forum, so if this is already addressed elsewhere, feel free to point me in that direction...).
Well, you read long enough you will come across articles by myself concerning Satan. I do not believe there ever was a war in heaven, Satan is not a former angel of light, and it is not an oxymoron to have war in heaven it is a complete contradiction and impossibility. On the other hand, if there was a war in heaven, then we are all doomed since as Jesus replied to the Pharisee, a Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.
I am having a long discussion with someone who believes in a Pre-Adamic age where angels and demons reigned creation and all of creation was destroyed in a cataclysmic flood and creation was re-created although these angels seem to keep falling from heaven, and earth was almost wiped out another time by a flood that supposedly stopped it the first time but failed. In any case, I find most mainstream 'orthodox' Christian understandings of the dark nature of things are mixed with fear and therefore not perfect nor complete and therefore most probably not true in the first place.
Also, concerning why you think darkness exists, is the closest model in why I believe it does as well. The contrast of good and evil, there can be no knowledge of good without knowledge of its antithesis, evil. Likewise, with the knowledge of evil, comes the knowledge of its antithesis, good.
Genesis 3:22-23Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."
Notice prior to eating of the tree of knowledge Adam and Woman (Renamed Eve in Genesis 4) did not know what was good or evil including the tree of life. Now with the knowledge of good and evil, and the knowledge of life, mankind works all their days and return to the garden at the end of the life. From ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Fire is what stands between our life and paradise, we all must go through the fire.
Now, I understand you do not believe in Satan. When you say this, are you saying you do not believe there is any evil in this world or that you don't believe in a fallen angel who has horns and a pitchfork? If it is the latter, I do not believe in Satan either.
Hi BridgeBuilder,
Thank you for your heartfelt testimony, I feel the Love that you express. :happygrin: Since, bridge building has a lot to do with the reconciliation of opposites, which in turn has a lot to do with the reconciling of all things in Christ, the very name that you use and honor tells me that you are being called to the New Age that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 19:28. I too felt the insidious doctrines of hell worming their way into my soul when I was young, and as a result, it took years for the Holy Spirit to bring me back to the Bible and show me the centrality of Biblical Truth to the New Age that is dawning. Even now my surrender to Jesus is a work in progress. Having been involved with the "new age" previously, I honor your journey and know there are teachings of value therein. However, I share some caveats about fallen angels, and the depth of bridge building that will be required in the New Age that God has planned.
In the ultimate reality, I agree that there are no fallen angels, evil spirits, etc., for the simple fact that God is the only force/being that is truly transcendent. From a high enough perspective, fallen angels are nothing more than chaotic natural forces, which is why Jesus can ultimately reconcile all things to God. The caveat is that from a human perspective chaotic natural forces exist in both the outer objective realm and the inner subjective realm, with self-sustaining manifestations of this inward chaos being rightfully called evil spirits. The deeper caveat is that evil spirits can give messages that appear meaningful, but unlike good spirits, the meaning has no purpose other than the sustenance of the evil spirit via some mixture of thought, action, and emotion. Indeed, the spirit behind the mmessage of eternal damnation is a perfect example of a voracious evil spirit that must be continuously fed.
The above example is obvious, but in the plethora of channeled "new age" books, the truth or falseness of what the spirits teach is not always so obvious. For certain, I have seen uplifting messages in "new age" bookstores and web-sites, but one can also find a host of oft repeated platitudes with no real power to bring on the "New Age." Going deeper, you can find myriads of "new age" books with a theme of inward mastery derived from the Eastern mystical traditions. I would be the first to admit that the inner realm is real and that mystics of the East often have a far greater mastery of mind and flesh than many Christians. But a spirituality that overemphasizes the inner realm creates the very suffering that the Buddha lamented via both: a) its failure to establish dominion over the material realm, and b) the spiritual counter balance that must emerge via hard-core scientific materialism of the modern era. A true bridge-builder will work to reconcile the inner technologies of the East with the outer technologies of the West, and in so doing will find the Bible to be the key to this virtually impossible task.
Going still deeper, there are elite "new age" writings of occult origin that talk about a turning of cycles in which billions of unenlightened humans are purged (i.e. killed) pursuant to the birthing of a new "root race." Alas, there is nothing in new in these teachings, just casual talk of mass-death justified as an inexorable part of man's evolution, a deep-rooted trans-temporal horror documented but not resolved in the Hopi, Hindu, and "new age" teachings of "cyclic time." The Bible also talks about a level of apocalyptic destruction so great that the Earth could end up back at the point of Genesis 1:2, and since God created all things, He even takes the rap for it. But unlike the elite "new age" writings that tell us that mass-death is an inexorable necessity, the Bible says turn your hearts to God and you will be spared, and gives challenging but practical advice on how to navigate this "end-time" crisis once we learn to read it in the Spirit of Truth and Love. It is a true message of hope.
Worse yet, the "new age" movement is rapidly succumbing to Malthusianism and ecological hysteria, and in this regard, a growing number of "new age" writings are directly or indirectly advocating a radical reduction in the Earth's population to "save the planet." But this is little more than traditional pagan human sacrifice to appease the gods of nature scaled up into the billions. If the modern "new age" movement truly embraced the concepts of stewardship and dominion it would be immune to ecological hysteria. A perfect case in point is the global warming hysteria where even the worst hypothetical global warming scenario could be trivially resolved without any carbon emission controls whatsoever if humanity were to embrace the stewardship and dominion inherent to geoengineering. Nor does the "new age" movement know how to confront Islam, the spiritual counter-force that directly opposes Neo-Pagan philosophy with the relentless call to global conquest in the name of God. Again, a true bridge-builder will work to reconcile the ecological passion of Neo-Paganism with the religious passion of Islam, and in so doing will find that the only one who can reconcile these is Jesus, the one who reconciles all.
Lastly, if I were to describe Jesus in "New Age" terms I would call Him "the guru of planetary enlightenment." I do not deny that some gurus (e.g. Mother Amma, the hugging saint) have such a level of love and compassion that they could be called a saint. Nor do I deny that many people have acted in a saintly way by sacrificing their lives. But Jesus is something more, for not only did He sacrifice His life, but He willing descended to the depths of hell that Love may prevail even there, and in so doing restored the Earth and all the beings therein to the transcendent cosmic destiny that God had planned from before the time of Adam. The trans-temporal logic that I use to look at this tells me that this ultimate sacrifice of Jesus made Him the focal point for the reconciliation of mundane forward-in-time causation and vital backward-in-time causation, and that via the reconciliation of these primal opposites he became both the master of time and the focal point for the reconciliation of all functional polarities.
True Believer,
It was great to read your thoughts, we share similar observations and conclusions. As I shared above concerning Gnostics (which some consider New Age) and the problem of the inward self love consuming them negatively. Versus what most people realize as true love which is the outward selfless love which consumes them positively.
Quote from: SOtW on August 08, 2008, 10:49:50 PM
Hello BridgeBuilder,
QuoteI was thinking about this concept one day recently, and a song "randomly" came on my radio where they were singing "We did it all for the Glory of Love". That's why darkness exists, to expose the Love, even in the most unlikely of circumstances. You may not share this belief precisely, I can understand that. We should probably talk of your views about Satan, I'm curious about that. I no longer believe in Satan, just so you know, nor do I believe a third of the host of heaven would rebel against the God I have come to know, and I believe the concept of "war in heaven" is an oxymoron. What are your thoughts on this matter? (Note: I haven't had a chance to read much on this forum, so if this is already addressed elsewhere, feel free to point me in that direction...).
Well, you read long enough you will come across articles by myself concerning Satan. I do not believe there ever was a war in heaven, Satan is not a former angel of light, and it is not an oxymoron to have war in heaven it is a complete contradiction and impossibility. On the other hand, if there was a war in heaven, then we are all doomed since as Jesus replied to the Pharisee, a Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.
There was/will be a war in heaven with satan and his angels cast out Rev12 v7-10 YLT
Rev 12:7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers,
Rev 12:8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
Rev 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world--he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night
Actually it is not how you think or were taught believe it. Satan had been elevated to heaven in the minds of men, and 2000 years ago he was cast out of heaven. He was not an angel of light in rebellion against the kingdom of light, he was the prince of darkness waging war against the kingdom of light. This is not in a pre-Adamic age, or beginning of creation, but when God appeared in flesh, when Jesus Christ came and defeated him and afterward.
Verse 10 says, "Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ."
There was no epic Lord of the Rings battle of Satan and his angels whom he deceived and Michael and his angels holding the gates and throwing Satan down to earth. All these thoughts of demonic underworlds, and turncoat angels and such is just vain imaginations that hold itself against the Truth.
2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Hi, fellow new ager :icon_flower:
Awesome post/thread.
I only have limited time today since I'm traveling. I may specifically respond to more of your detailed comments when I can.
Hey, that Oprah thread is really taking off, thanks to many of you. Actually, it's our Loving God at work, don't you think? :bigGrin: I may not be on exactly the same page as you, but I think we can all agree that our Creator is AWESOME beyond our ability to comprehend. And God's Love knows no bounds.
Regarding the "New Age" label, there are a few reasons some of my beliefs would fall under this category. The main reason is that I believe God is assisting mankind to reach a new level of consciousness, which will usher in a "New Age" of peace in true communion with God on Earth. I believe in guided evolution (not random evolution), and I think our next quantum leap is going to be spiritual, not physical. I believe we are actually creative expressions of God having a human experience, distinct individuals, yet also inseparable from God, who is EVERYWHERE, including in us. And I do believe we can be a part of God and still have a personal relationship with God, which may seem contradictory, but it's what I believe. I also have a firm belief in reincarnation because of the objective evidence I have seen, convincing me beyond a shadow of a doubt. So I cannot over-emphasize how much that has influenced how I view the Earth experience and what happens after death. By the way, reincarnation itself does not make the Christian point of view null and void - I do know Christians who believe we are given many chances to have a relationship with God, many lives to do so and that God gives us as many chances as we need to accept salvation. I personally do not share this particular view, but I respect it as a plausible way of incorporating the concept of reincarnation into the Christian framework.
Somebody asked if I believe in evil. I don't believe in absolute evil, if that is what you are asking. I believe there is no place that is completely dark and apart from God. There are simply places where the Light of God is obscured, some places darker than others. And God allows those places to be, or they couldn't be. I believe most "evil" acts in the world are caused not by supernatural evil influences or even by "sin", but often by the deepest of wounds, some centuries old. Sometimes the wounds are personal. If someone commits a horrendous act, even the most twisted of crimes, my first question is "Is this person mentally ill?", which would not be "evil", it would be the physical human condition. My second question would be "What happened to this person as a child or earlier in life to cause him/her to be this way as an adult?" And to me, "sin" is more about confusion than true wrongdoing. I believe God can be present in our lives and teach us how to live in ways where we do not do harm to ourselves or to others. I have personally experienced what I like to call the gentle "rehabilitative justice" (or "guidance") of God. And this also comes into play in reincarnation too, where you have multiple lives to get it right.
When it comes to societal "evil" acts, that's when the wounds can run very, very deep. Even events like 9/11 can be traced to such wounds, as can most wars. Vengeance also comes into play, which can propagate for centuries.
Someone asked what I think about evil spirits. I think there is something to this phenomenon, but it may not be what it seems. There have been a couple of times I encountered something that others might call an evil spirit. Once I was with a friend (who did not have a Christian background), who called on an angel to send it away. Then we both visually witnessed the brightest Light we had ever seen and a tremendous sense of Love. And it was gone. I'll never forget that Light - we didn't just SEE it, we FELT it too. There was also a healing effect too, which became apparent afterwards. The interesting thing is that I wasn't particularly afraid at the time. I didn't sense absolute evil at any time during this experience. I'm not quite sure how to explain what this "oppressive entity" was. Fellow New Agers would call it "a being of lower vibration". One friend even said it was some sort of "alien". Well, as for me, the jury is out on that one, but I really don't think it was an evil spirit. It seemed more foreign than evil, if that makes any sense at all.
I have experienced A LOT spiritually. I have had some very intense spiritual experiences, and they led me to the Love of God. Also, amazing confirmations. I'm curious. Have any of you been witnessing more miraculous activity lately? Not in a "this could be in my head and I'm completely crazy" kind of way, but in very real, verifiable ways, even jointly witnessed by others? I am seeing God's tangible presence in the world, and it gives me tremendous strength and reassurance. Are you?
One more thing I should emphasize. I'm still learning about who Jesus really was, and I openly admit that. You see, I had banned all Bibles from my house, I was SO burned by the pain and anguish I went through as an evangelical. I just wasn't even interested in hearing ANYTHING about Jesus for quite a while. But I'm not in that place anymore. I can read the Bible again. CARM did that for me, amazing as that may seem. And when I read the Bible now, passages often jump out at me in an entirely new light.
As far as the Bible goes, I'm not a Biblical literalist since I simply can't get around some really horrible things in the Old Testament that God is said to have commanded - child killing, rape, etc. These things just are not compatible with a Loving God, in my opinion, and my conscience simply cries out against them. If you are both a Biblical literalist and a Christian Universalist, I have no idea how you get around these things.
And then there is the New Testament and the question of Jesus. I'm in a bit of a quandary about him, this Jesus I avoided for many years. Your thoughts are most welcome. I really don't know what Jesus actually said or did anymore, or who he really was. I don't trust the Bible, you see. And Jesus seems to have said some pretty contradictory things, radically loving one moment and full of hellfire and condemnation the next. And then there is the Gospel of Thomas, which I don't take literally, but it contains some very interesting things reported to have been said by Jesus.
What happened to the words of Jesus? Were they manipulated by the early church? Or have they simply been misinterpreted? Was Jesus a "master teacher" (as the New Agers say) trying to tell us we could all be like him? Or was he enlightened one moment, in fear the next? (Which DOES happen by the way to some people experiencing very intense spiritual phenomena.) I really do seriously doubt he was the ONLY Son of God, all due respect to beliefs I know you hold dear, but I'm just being honest here. So there's your charter. Feel free to share with me anew what YOU think about Jesus. I've only heard what the diehard evangelicals and the New Agers have to say. What do YOU have to say? And why should I believe that he came here to save us? From WHAT did we need to be saved? Yep, real basic stuff, but I'm starting from scratch in trying to truly understand what you believe.
In peace,
BridgeBuilder
Hi Steward of the Word,
Glad you like my ideas. Keep your eyes peeled, I've got 14 years of research to draw from. :winkgrin:
Quote from: BridgeBuilder on August 09, 2008, 10:05:08 PM
Somebody asked if I believe in evil. I don't believe in absolute evil, if that is what you are asking.
I do not believe that the phrase absolute evil appears in scripture anyway(correct me if I am wrong). How we might view evil may not be all that important, it is a force to be reckoned with no matter how it is looked at. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. A cousin of mine is actually glad for the evil things that has happened in her life, or as we may define evil or think of evil. She is glad because all of that has actually caused more love to be manifest from her life. It also has given her the perspective of how the pain of the world is a symptom of evil, evil that God has control over.
Quote
If you are both a Biblical literalist and a Christian Universalist, I have no idea how you get around these things.
A literal view of the bible usually is misunderstood in the first place. But I do not say that to make light or dance around the horrible things we can read in the bible. Something can be literally true and have a greater meaning.
For instance, "God is a consuming fire" This is literally true because God exists and he is indeed a consuming fire in the context of its spiritual value. Jesus is the Savior of all mankind, this is biblically literally true because Jesus existed, but the spiritual value shows there is more to it.
Some say that God is so good that he could not even have created evil, but that is putting the cart before the horse.
This good God with that logic could of made life and not allowed anything that we consider bad to exist, but thats not what happened.
If you are going to believe in "something" that created "everything" there is unlikely any way to turn except realizing that all bad things had to have happened for some purpose that was orchestrated by that creator.
If that God exists, then there is only two courses of action to see, either there is hope for everyone, or hope for no one.
Of course many people claim to be atheists because they cannot reconcile this through faith....... yet. ;)
You do not have to read the pages of the bible to understand this concept. I do not pretend to like something such as child rape in the least, I abhorr it and someone being mentally ill or not I do not condone allowing someone to continue it. However, God allowed it, if indeed he really had the power to stop it, obviously since it happens, he did not stop those instances of it. There is no place to turn emotionally on this. If your child was being raped as someone with the power to stop it watched it happen, there is little doubt in my mind what anyone would think of such a person.
However, humans do not have the power to bring a good end through the design of evil, but God does and that is the one and only difference. That is why I trust all the words of the bible and it has taken me almost 40 years to even begin to get a glimpse that it all means LOVE somehow. I do not know how it all can, but I just know that it does.
Quote from: BridgeBuilder on August 08, 2008, 12:08:19 AM
But you know what, I think the title itself is what has launched that post, submitted almost 2 years ago, to the #1 most read post on ALL of CARM (and #3 based in replies) - not just #1 on the New Age forum, but on ALL the forums of CARM, something that amazes me to this day. And I continue to respond there when I can, also posting on various other New Age topics.
And still going strong!
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?s=b4077289c7497d9dff6edeaa4877cede&t=27423
blessings,
- Byron
Well BB, I did reply at the Oprah board due to this thread, but now that a little time has passed since then, that is the only board where a 'virus' of some sort comes up to prevent me from posting.
-It's not like I don't have computer access from other computers though.- :icon_queen:
I am glad to see it is not only me that has that problem.
I have given up posting there because it keeps logging me out and then I cannot log on again.
Quote from: SeekerSA on August 16, 2008, 08:37:03 AM
I am glad to see it is not only me that has that problem.
I have given up posting there because it keeps logging me out and then I cannot log on again.
Same here Seeker, so I quit posting there also.
I'm hearing quite a bit of talk about Oprah, and quite frankly I'm disturbed about it. Oprah not only does not believe Jesus Christ (Messiah) is the only path, but openly spreads this teaching with her vast amount of pull she has with millions of faithful viewers. She is very concerned that it is enough to live "like Jesus" whether you believe in him or not, but know this, for those whom shall be justified by their works, by their good deeds and by their lifestyles, without the blood of Jesus Christ covering the door, that they shall be judged by their works according to the law.
Jesus is the Messiah, He is THE CHRIST, the Savior, not "a saviour" or "one of millions of saviours". He is THE way, not A way, make no mistake.
Notice in 1 John 4:2 that in order for one to make that confession, one must be not merely talking about Jesus of Nazareth, but acknowledging, as a part of that confession, the fact the Jesus of Nazareth is JESUS CHRIST, the Messiah, the Savior:
1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
If Oprah is so concerned about all the people whom haven't heard about Jesus Christ, then why doesn't she use her vast resources to further that goal?? Instead she uses that to argue that he is merely "a way", and in fact she gets irritatied at people whom believe Jesus Christ is THE WAY, which means she is irritated at Jesus Christ.
Oprah's problem isn't with devout christians, but, according to the Gospel of John (14:6), her gripe is with Jesus Christ, her problem is with God.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
More on that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwGLNbiw1gk
Watch out folks, its getting layed on thick in these days. :sigh:
I think we have to keep things in perspective. You will find that many spiritualists have been severely damaged by organized religion. Oprahs background is baptist, people who have grown up in a strict old school baptist environment will understand how hard it can be to see God in Love after that has influenced a person so heavily and negatively.
From my perspective, there is only one way to God through Jesus Christ and what it comes down to is God having the ability to make it happen.
For some, it is a long road to separate Gods word from the religion that they detest.
Good point Paul, healing is in order, and prayers and correction, to help lead them back to their first love, Jesus Christ (not their first church). Those whom know Jesus Christ must continue to witness to those whom do not yet know him, now if a person attended an organization that talked about Jesus Christ, that does not mean that the person knows Jesus Christ, and the witness from us can be no other: that Jesus Christ is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE.
Will you then join me in prayers for Oprah, and perhaps God will grant her repentance on the matter. What a marvelous witness she would make to the truth if she returned to her first love, Jesus Christ.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 23, 2008, 05:31:08 AM
Good point Paul, healing is in order, and prayers and correction, to help lead them back to their first love, Jesus Christ (not their first church). Those whom know Jesus Christ must continue to witness to those whom do not yet know him, now if a person attended an organization that talked about Jesus Christ, that does not mean that the person knows Jesus Christ, and the witness from us can be no other: that Jesus Christ is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE.
Will you then join me in prayers for Oprah, and perhaps God will grant her repentance on the matter. What a marvelous witness she would make to the truth if she returned to her first love, Jesus Christ.
This is one reason I have come to Love God more. I realize that humans are not bound to figuring it out on their own and we do not have to be bound to hoping we witness good enough or that we gave enough money at church to "spread" the word or what other nonsense religion comes up with. We can have a confidence that God is in control and Oprah (or anyone else) is not doomed to hell because their earthly circumstances caused them to act in opposition to religion.
We can concentrate on actually Loving God and not fearing each step we take won't be good enough. We can learn to love People in all circumstances and that the LOVE IS SUCCESSFUL even if our part was just a piece of the path.
Yes, I will join you in your prayers.
Who is this Jesus?
Some believe he was God's son sacrificed to appease God's judgement against us. Recently I read from the Jesus Seminar that he was a composite mythical person.
Honestly I do not have the molecular makeup of Jesus's origen figured out; was he the third part of a trinity, was he half/man half/God, full God/full man, fully man filled with God. My head spins when I think about it too long.
Let me speak from my heart my own experience. When I was in my early 20's the negative thoughts in my head were continuous and persistent. They were louder than my own voice; you are so stupid, you are such an idiot, you should just die, etc. etc. One night I had a dream that this woman had a large black dog. She would sick it on me, and I was powerless to outrun or overpower the dog. It would lay on me and it was terrifying. I called my brother for help, he led me to Isaiah 54. I woke up early and read this chapter every day because I was desparate. The part that sticks out in my head is verses 16-17
"Behold, I have created the blacksmith who blows the coals in the fire, who brings forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the spoiler to destroy. No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and every tongue which rises against you in judgement you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of Me," says the Lord."
One morning as I was praying a warm electric peace covered me from head to foot. It was an electric wave that passed right through my body. As this happened I kept hearing in my mind "You righteousness is of me, your righteousness is of me." I believed at the time that this signified that Jesus was sent by God to stand in my place before Himself to cover all of the sins that were keeping me from Him. At that time I felt that when I sinned that I couldn't be in the presence of God or I would shamefully approach Him each time in prayer with a litany of 'I'm sorry's'. From that point on I had a default to refer to when my mind began to attack me for things I did. I would immediately think, you can't attack me, when God sees me He sees Jesus. This default protected me from the thing in my mind that accused me of all my wrong-doing. I can honestly say that I never think those things anymore, God has completely healed me.
Now that I've matured (Ha!), I believe God saw me the whole time and loved me the whole time, but my conscience needed a covering. This is what Jesus was to me.
That happens to me a lot Sarah. Same exact experiences, and the Lord giving a Scripture in a dream that I would remember in the morning that would explain what I was going through. I also had that electric peace, and the God speak to me comforting me saying, "Craig, nothing can separate you from My love, I will never leave you or forsake you." to look next to me and Jesus was sitting in my bedside chair.
Quote from: Sarah on August 23, 2008, 05:32:57 PM
Who is this Jesus?
Recently I read from the Jesus Seminar that he was a composite mythical person.
That statment from that Jesus Seminar you are talking about, that they are saying he is a composite mythical person, is from the anti-christ, and that is the truth.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
P.S. the reason your head is spinning is because, through your search for the truth, are suffering alot of teachings from the anti-christ to be pondered upon. I've been there, and know what you mean.
Quote from: Sarah on August 23, 2008, 05:32:57 PM
Now that I've matured (Ha!), I believe God saw me the whole time and loved me the whole time, but my conscience needed a covering.
Bingo! :Sparkletooth:
QuoteP.S. the reason your head is spinning is because, through your search for the truth, are suffering alot of teachings from the anti-christ to be pondered upon. I've been there, and know what you mean.
I have been confused concerning the molecular makeup of God for a long time, and I just read the Jesus seminar thing I yesterday, so that wasn't the instigator. The truth is that the trinity has always been an area of mental conflict, especially since it felt like it was thing that I had to convince people of to convert them to Christianity. I knew the Mormons believed that Jesus was a literal son of God, and they were going to hell, and the Islams believed he was just a prophet and they were going to hell, so then I'd better get a good understanding of the trinity so I'm not responsible for misrepresenting the trinity and thus sending people to hell.
Since coming into the knowledge of His tranforming all-inclusive love, I have felt freer to explore other ideas regarding the makeup of the God-head, or God. I still haven't come to any strong conclusions. Now, I just concentrate on knowing Him. I have confidence in His overwhelming Love. I will not be put into bondage because I don't mentally have it figured out. I rest in his love and mercy. Perhaps this unknowing is my 'thorn' so I can have mercy on others.
Quote from: Sarah on August 24, 2008, 07:02:55 AM
QuoteP.S. the reason your head is spinning is because, through your search for the truth, are suffering alot of teachings from the anti-christ to be pondered upon. I've been there, and know what you mean.
I have been confused concerning the molecular makeup of God for a long time, and I just read the Jesus seminar thing I yesterday, so that wasn't the instigator. The truth is that the trinity has always been an area of mental conflict, especially since it felt like it was thing that I had to convince people of to convert them to Christianity.
This is interesting, I too have wondered the same. Interesting that you would word it the molecular makeup of God. Oh , thats a big step I am willing to take, but just don't know how to take it. God exist, that I believe. If he exist, he then must be constructed of something. I mean, he has being, but what is he made of? Well he is not " Made", or constructed, or born, or encased within something I can understand. He just is. And I do believe that he gave birth to Jesus, as a human woman would give birth to her child, it just comes out of her. Jesus came out of God, but it " Was Not", a normal birth, or a human birth, it was a devine birth. Or Protozoan, something within, now is without, and now has independant self existing life.
Impossible without God producing it, thus God is entwined to it, thus " An Apperance of Unilateral birth, and from this comes the trinity belief." God doing the impossible, not impossible to him, but to us! We are not willing to accept that God gave Jesus individual self existing life, so we try to " Trinitise that", or make him out to be God equally, then include the Holy Spirit into that mix. Thus the trinity belief gains relevance, from learning that is illrelevant and off balence.
The hallmark of Gods creation of consciousness, is that he gave it individuality. Self awareness. There is nothing that exist that is independent from God. The trinity concept is really seriously limited, God is all in all, the trinity seriously reduces that, short changes God, in an effort to uplift him.
Peace.
But you know, I am not far from believeing that Jesus is God, and that is a big change for me. But I think it needs contexting, explaining that seperates them, without seperating them, which is not easily done. If it came from God, then its God, but not if God didnotwant it to be him by extension, but how can we seperate child from parent? Well it has to be the individuality of consciousness, which Jesus obivously holds to himself, as we hold to ourselves. In the end, I think all humans will be Gods, just not God as the Father is God, but God as the beginning of a birth charactherised by its parent. Its just too wonderful to rightly discern, without the imagination running wild. And thus overboard and ego shifting.
I understand the confusion. I am confused about it.
Just far too much that I cannot see.
Peace.
Thank you for your reply Mickiel and honesty. My point wasn't to down the trinity, or the other conclusions people come from scriptures; God is a family, The oneness theology, etc. I was just pointing out that it isn't a concept that is 'easy', and it seems mean to require someone to have it figured out to 'get to heaven'. If you go onto boards that discuss such things they get up into the 20 pages area with emotions raging. Each POV quoting scripture and stating how obvious it is. Maybe I'm dumb or smart, I don't know, but I freely admit that I don't have it figured out.
Concerning who this Jesus was, I have thought before that it isn't so much convincing somone of historical head knowledge, but showing them Christ within. This is the Christ that we accept or reject daily. It seems everyone in the US knows the Jesus Story, and we are trying desparately to persuade them of our understanding in thinking this is the key to salvation. But I believe the key is introducing them to the one who brings life.
Bridgebuilder mentioned earlier that the Jesus of the bible seemed like he was one minute full of love and the next sending people to a place of weeping and knashing of teeth. It is important that you look at the context. Who was he talking to? What was going on politically at the time? and also to keep in mind that the word 'hell' used in his teachings are not indicitive of the eternal torture chamber that comes to mind in our brand of Christianity.