Tentmaker Forum

Hiya!

I would like to clear up a small misunderstanding! I was not going to leave the forum due to any discussion or disagreement. It was depending on how my post was viewed, which was going to be the indicator if I should be here at all.

I do not know how many of you had or have to suffer the accusations of other Christians in your life because you believe in something greater than yourself...

I did not need some who call themselves Christians and supposedly believe in salvation for all tell me that because I believed we have free will, that some how I am like those Christians whom I suffer accusation for believing in salvation for all.

It was very disappointing and hoped that it was only just certain individuals, not the sum of the membership of this forum that believed such.

So my apologies if I made any uneasy, it was not an ultimatum, it was a statement of fact. If I get put under condemnation along with those whom condemn me outside the realization of universal reconciliation, I had no need to be here or associate with this place.

Now that I know it was only a few and not the whole, I am comfortable to know this is a good place to meet people.

:gangel:

I think before you subscribe to a discussion board you have to accept not everybody shares your views.
Not just this board but also boards about sports or knitting :laughing7:
But isn't discussion the best way to learn?
Imagine you post something once a day. At the end of the day you have 500 replies stating things like: Wow YY! Great stuf. I fully agree.
Would be an ego boost but it would quickly get boring. And you learn nothing.

So IMO nothing wrong with (no) free will discussions.
Personally I have more 'problems' with the fact that many don't have the decency to stay on-topic for at least, say, 10 replies. You know people that seem to scan threads for words they can use to bend the discussion to the things they like to discuss.

  Exactly WW ,

  manipulating and boring ,sucking up  with vain flatteries

  makes a dead forum fast  :sigh: UGH :mblush:

QuotePersonally I have more 'problems' with the fact that many don't have the decency to stay on-topic for at least, say, 10 replies. You know people that seem to scan threads for words they can use to bend the discussion to the things they like to discuss

  Are you talking about me again ? :laughing7:
 

QuotePersonally I have more 'problems' with the fact that many don't have the decency to stay on-topic for at least, say, 10 replies. You know people that seem to scan threads for words they can use to bend the discussion to the things they like to discuss.

Hehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Nah Rose, Tis me surely.(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/divers/diver031.gif)

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

Hi YoungYuni,
I hope I was not one of the ones who hurt your feelings. Be that as it may, just know that God saves a motley crew the likes of us. We all have imperfections. Even though we disagree on some things we try to disagree in a peaceful, loving way. I realize this is hard to show on a board which one cannot hear the voice of the other writer disagreeing with you.

Sometimes our feelings do get the better of us and we wish we could take some things back. But nonetheless we are one big family.

Anyway, welcome to the board. I hope you never disagree with me because if you do you will pay dearly for it.  :laughing7: Just kidding.

Tony

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 11:32:53 AM
Personally I have more 'problems' with the fact that many don't have the decency to stay on-topic for at least, say, 10 replies. You know people that seem to scan threads for words they can use to bend the discussion to the things they like to discuss.

What is "on topic"?

Anyway,  10 is a good even number,  I like that there are 10 bowling pins, but we should get 10 tries in each frame to get them all.    I think it is sadistic that there are only 8 hotdog buns to go with 10 hotdogs in a package, it must be a conspiracy...........



:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

 

QuoteI think it is sadistic that there are only 8 hotdog buns to go with 10 hotdogs in a package, it must be a conspiracy...........

He you got ripped off, up here in the great white north we get 12 hotdogs in a package with 8 buns :happygrin:

YY glad you descided to stay :thumbsup:

Quote from: pneuma on December 09, 2008, 08:38:33 PM

QuoteI think it is sadistic that there are only 8 hotdog buns to go with 10 hotdogs in a package, it must be a conspiracy...........

He you got ripped off, up here in the great white north we get 12 hotdogs in a package with 8 buns :happygrin:

he ha.,,,,Tells me theys a Lot slimmer at the other place Scott.. :laughing7:

12 hotdogs match up perfectly with 2 6-packs of beer.
Perhaps that why Al Bundy invented the 12-pack. He lives in north chickago  :laughing7:


A 3-pack from China:

(http://www.costumedogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/hotdog.jpg)(http://content.funnyhumor.com/pictures/hotdog.jpg)(http://www.lolfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/hotdog.jpg)

Quote from: rosered on December 09, 2008, 02:26:43 PM

QuotePersonally I have more 'problems' with the fact that many don't have the decency to stay on-topic for at least, say, 10 replies. You know people that seem to scan threads for words they can use to bend the discussion to the things they like to discuss

  Are you talking about me again ? :laughing7:
 

Would love to it still hurts from last time  :hammerhead:

Nice HOT doggies CD, your back firing on all cylinders aint yaa :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 09:37:23 PM

Quote from: rosered on December 09, 2008, 02:26:43 PM

QuotePersonally I have more 'problems' with the fact that many don't have the decency to stay on-topic for at least, say, 10 replies. You know people that seem to scan threads for words they can use to bend the discussion to the things they like to discuss

  Are you talking about me again ? :laughing7:
 

Would love to it still hurts from last time  :hammerhead:

   :icon_jokercolor:    Now you know that everyone gets a good Birthday flogging dont cha  Bro ?[

  could not leave you out

Quote from: Taffy on December 09, 2008, 09:44:27 PM
Nice HOT doggies CD, your back firing on all cylinders aint yaa :laughing7:

OH Graham , thats  too cute , you are sooooooooooo funny bro ! ROFL !  ya wit kills me  ha ha ha !  doggies  back firing perhaps   hee heee .. :laughing7:

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 09, 2008, 09:17:48 AM
Hiya!

I would like to clear up a small misunderstanding! I was not going to leave the forum due to any discussion or disagreement. It was depending on how my post was viewed, which was going to be the indicator if I should be here at all.

I do not know how many of you had or have to suffer the accusations of other Christians in your life because you believe in something greater than yourself...

I did not need some who call themselves Christians and supposedly believe in salvation for all tell me that because I believed we have free will, that some how I am like those Christians whom I suffer accusation for believing in salvation for all.

It was very disappointing and hoped that it was only just certain individuals, not the sum of the membership of this forum that believed such.

So my apologies if I made any uneasy, it was not an ultimatum, it was a statement of fact. If I get put under condemnation along with those whom condemn me outside the realization of universal reconciliation, I had no need to be here or associate with this place.

Now that I know it was only a few and not the whole, I am comfortable to know this is a good place to meet people.

:gangel:

Hi YoungYuni,

Yes, we on this forum who believe in the total sovereignty of God are few in number. I am not down on anyone who doesn't agree with me on that. The way I see it is, it is God who gives us what we believe. I acquired nothing on my own, so I have no reason to boast,  be angry, or accuse those who don't agree with me.

If we all agreed on everything, there would be no need for forums. Do you think this will happen eventually?

(Eph. 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ 

CHB

Hello!

I do not know who you are CHB, thanks for replying; at the same time, Arrrrrrg! This is a rather frustrating predicament! I do not even know how to respond without feeling that you do not see the problem for what it is.

Quote from: CHBYes, we on this forum who believe in the total sovereignty of God are few in number.

I will know this very clear, from that particular statement, you do not know what you are talking about.

Let me explain. From what I read and come to understand is everyone in this forum believes in the sovereignty of God. The issue is not, and has never been, about God's Sovereignty.

So please do not manipulate or confuse the issue, it is so frustrating.

:thumbdown: :sigh:

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 10, 2008, 06:28:03 AM
Hello!

I do not know who you are CHB, thanks for replying; at the same time, Arrrrrrg! This is a rather frustrating predicament! I do not even know how to respond without feeling that you do not see the problem for what it is.

Quote from: CHBYes, we on this forum who believe in the total sovereignty of God are few in number.

I will know this very clear, from that particular statement, you do not know what you are talking about.

Let me explain. From what I read and come to understand is everyone in this forum believes in the sovereignty of God. The issue is not, and has never been, about God's Sovereignty.

So please do not manipulate or confuse the issue, it is so frustrating.

:thumbdown: :sigh:

sounds like your frustration comes from being in "prison" to your own thoughts about an issue rather than the issue itself. 

Hiya Zeek!

I am sorry, should you feel that I am being unfair, I am perfectly in my right as a human being, to have a frustration about it.

I am not in prison to my thoughts! Far from it!

Did anyone here say they do not believe in the Sovereignty of God?

If they did, then what CHB said would be relevant to this topic.

Please, Zeek, read my first post and understand why I am frustration.

Understand the underlining context to my initial post!

Since none have, and all do believe in the Sovereignty of God, what CHB said has nothing to do with my post or thoughts or belief. That is why when she/he said that she/he was the few who believed in the Sovereignty of God, she/he does not know what she/he is talking about.

Everyone in this forum who commented in that particular thread, including those who believe in free will, believe in the Sovereignty of God.

It therefore, is frustrating, to see this confusion being created.

I believe passionately in the sovereignty of God.

I am was just excited to come to a place where people supposedly believed in salvation for all mankind, only to be treated with contempt for believing that it is not impossible of God to do it, while mankind has a free will.

Again, sorry if I come over the top, it is not my intention. Just little me with passionate emotions that sometimes get in the way.

:icon_flower:  :msealed:

Hiya CHB!

Please forgive my frustration.

:icon_queen:  :icon_king:

I was just floored that you thought this was an issue of God's Sovereignty in all things. Maybe I missed something and should have asked more questions.

Let me make it up to you!

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

I love you! Please accept my apology.

You asked:

If we all agreed on everything, there would be no need for forums. Do you think this will happen eventually?

The answer is:

YES!

I hope you were reading what I wrote in that post earlier, I cannot remember the name but it seems locked, where I explained why.

The knowledge of the truth turns people to the truth of what is right and good for all mankind.

Just as it is inevitable for mankind to sin when ignorant to what is true; it is inevitable for mankind be righteous because what is true will be recognized and testified in due time.

In the meantime, since we have not yet passed to the other side of this mortal life, the righteous must live by faith because the knowledge of the truth has yet been seen with our eyes or understood with complete perfection in our hearts.

I am sorry again for my frustration.

May God Bless you! I should have bit my tongue!

:boyheart: :girlheart:

I apologize too.  I just know that when I am frustrated, it's usually because i'm attached to a belief, and look outward at others as the problem.  Thus giving them power over my emotions and me becoming a victim. 

Peace that passeth understanding is a peace I find when I am attached to HIM rather than my beliefs about HIM.

just some thots.

Hiya Zeek!

I appreciate your apology!

My frustration was not to any belief.

It doesn't matter if one believes in free will or not; but it does matter that I am told that because I believe in free will, I don't believe in the Sovereignty of God.

Do you see my frustration?

It was because a lie was being presented as the issue.

I am understanding and graceful, as I am stubborn and passionate.

I may have been a bit rough, but my frustration was not because I believe in free will but because of how those who disagree with free will think have labeled me and made such contemptuous assumptions because of it.

Whether they knew it or not.

Eeeeeee! I need to bite my tongue!

LOL

:gangel:

I am up way to late and probably shouldn't even go here, but wondering if you see "frustration" as being able to coexist with peace.  I see frustration as an emotion we experience when we believe something "should" be or shouldn't be a certain way.  It's an emotion based on past or future, but not the now. 

what do u think?

I am really in to how the Spirit is our mental health. 

The fruit of the spirit

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


When we have a "should or should not" which I would define as "a law", and it is violated; sin is given power.

The power of sin is the law. 

When I question my thoughts and the emotions that are attached to that thought,  in my opinion; it is insight to what "I'm attached to", my thoughts, or to the ONE who is aware of my thoughts. 

I think unpleasant emotions are a great way (once we are aware of them, and look to our inward thought/law that is causing them) rather than outward to others or situation's; to then take every thought captive. 

By then trusting in the Lord (within me) and "leaning not unto my own understandign (my thoughts)", I find Peace, Joy, LOVE and righteousness.

ok, time for me to go to bed

Quote from: Zeek on December 10, 2008, 07:45:26 AM
I am up way to late and probably shouldn't even go here, but wondering if you see "frustration" as being able to coexist with peace.  I see frustration as an emotion we experience when we believe something "should" be or shouldn't be a certain way.  It's an emotion based on past or future, but not the now. 

what do u think?

I think that sometimes, Christians forget they are human beings and that their neighbor is human.

I am completely at peace. I know frustrations are compatible with that peace.

I just want a place to meet people who are compatible with that peace, knowing it is okay to be angry and frustrated, and still be at peace.

From some things I am observing. It may not be this place.

That is my underlining frustration.

But I think it could be that I entered into the wrong conversation. From what it looks like, free will is a very controversial subject.

Sigh!

:sigh:  :cloud9:

:msealed: :bgdance:

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 10, 2008, 07:55:50 AM

Quote from: Zeek on December 10, 2008, 07:45:26 AM
I am up way to late and probably shouldn't even go here, but wondering if you see "frustration" as being able to coexist with peace.  I see frustration as an emotion we experience when we believe something "should" be or shouldn't be a certain way.  It's an emotion based on past or future, but not the now. 

what do u think?

I think that sometimes, Christians forget they are human beings and that their neighbor is human.

I am completely at peace. I just want a place to meet people who are compatible with that peace.

From some things I am observing.

It may not be this place.

:msealed: :bgdance:

and does that "want" create "lack of peace" or what i'd call frustration?? 

wanting is usually a "need" we want fulfilled; based on past thoughts/beliefs.

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 10, 2008, 07:55:50 AM

Quote from: Zeek on December 10, 2008, 07:45:26 AM
I am up way to late and probably shouldn't even go here, but wondering if you see "frustration" as being able to coexist with peace.  I see frustration as an emotion we experience when we believe something "should" be or shouldn't be a certain way.  It's an emotion based on past or future, but not the now. 

what do u think?

I think that sometimes, Christians forget they are human beings and that their neighbor is human.

I am completely at peace. I just want a place to meet people who are compatible with that peace.

From some things I am observing.

It may not be this place.

:msealed: :bgdance:

There will alwasy be something that we will "believe" that goes against "what is" wherever you go.  Peace that passeth understanding is within you, not strengthened by "greener pastures"

Well I hope you stay, but I guarantee you that your "frustration" and "lack of finding others to support your peace belief" is not dependent upon any one of us, but on your thoughts about us. 

I constantly ask myself throughout the day,

is it the situation that's the problem (why i feel an unease) or my thoughts about the situation?? 

good night,

and am preaching to myself more than u.

z

Hello Zeek,

I do not believe you are understanding the frustration.

It is not about belief.

:boyheart: :girlheart:

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 10, 2008, 08:05:35 AM
Hello Zeek,

I do not believe you are understanding the frustration.

It is not about belief.

:boyheart: :girlheart:

where does it come from then??

The constant battle of having to deal with lies concerning what I believe told about me among those who believe in everlasting torment is one thing.

Dealing with lies concerning what I believe among those who supposedly understand salvation for all, is just disappointing.

A person can state their belief and be good; however the moment they begin to tell lies concerning about another person's belief, is another.

This is not a thing of peace, I am quite self-sufficient. It is about the purpose of why this place exists.

A difference of opinion is one thing, but telling me that because I believe in free will that I do not believe in the Sovereignty of God.

Why would a person even put up with that?

I tolerate it, but I am not going to be quiet about it.

We all need to think about what we are saying before we say or write it.

As I said previously, I have constant arguments with my family because we are all passionate people and really opinionated. People might even believe we hate each other over it; however, as passionate as we are concerning our beliefs, we are just equally or more passionate about each other concerning love.

If what I say can be disproved, it is a great discussion and a learning experience.

If what I say cannot be disproved, it remains and it is up to the one discussing it, to take a learning experience.

If what I can say cannot be disproved, and the person continues to believe what they believe any ways that too is okay.

When what I say cannot be disproved, but the person continues to believe what they believe and attributes their ideas, which have nothing to do with what I said, as being what I said in order to continue believing what they believe.  Then I get frustrated. There is no need for this.

Does that make sense?

Thanks for the discussion Zeek!

Maybe it was needed to be vented, and some things you said needed to be said!

I respect that!

Have a good night too!

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 10, 2008, 08:15:20 AM
The constant battle of having to deal with lies concerning what I believe told about me among those who believe in everlasting torment is one thing.

Dealing with lies concerning what I believe among those who supposedly understand salvation for all, is just disappointing.

A person can state their belief and be good; however the moment they begin to tell lies concerning about another person's belief, is another.

This is not a thing of peace, I am quite self-sufficient. It is about the purpose of why this place exists.

A difference of opinion is one thing, but telling me that because I believe in free will that I do not believe in the Sovereignty of God.

Why would a person even put up with that?

I tolerate it, but I am not going to be quiet about it.

We all[u] need [/u] to think about what we are saying before we say or write it.

As I said previously, I have constant arguments with my family because we are all passionate people and really opinionated. People might even believe we hate each other over it; however, as passionate as we are concerning our beliefs, we are just equally or more passionate about each other concerning love.

If what I say can be disproved, it is a great discussion and a learning experience.

If what I say cannot be disproved, it remains and it is up to the one discussing it, to take a learning experience.

If what I can say cannot be disproved, and the person continues to believe what they believe any ways that too is okay.

When what I say cannot be disproved, but the person continues to believe what they believe and attributes their ideas, which have nothing to do with what I said, as being what I said in order to continue believing what they believe.  Then I get frustrated. There is no need for this.

Does that make sense?

Thanks for the discussion Zeek!

Maybe it was needed to be vented, and some things you said needed to be said!

I respect that!

Have a good night too!

It makes total sense, and I again challenge you to see if the frustration is because of the other person, or your own beliefs.  I underlined above stuff that to me is all about your beliefs, opinions, which will always cause frustration if violated.  Then we defend and go "to war mentally".

one last thing, with your free will, remove your frustration and add to your being appreciation, acceptance and love toward those "in the past" told "lies" about you.  Change your belief, change your opinions.  Create the fruits of the spirit.  What a joy to walk in the Spirit. 

If you choose not to, then you truly are the creator of your own frustration, not others. 

now that is my last post

got to get some sleep

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 10, 2008, 07:18:45 AM
Hiya CHB!

Please forgive my frustration.

:icon_queen:  :icon_king:

I was just floored that you thought this was an issue of God's Sovereignty in all things. Maybe I missed something and should have asked more questions.

Let me make it up to you!

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

I love you! Please accept my apology.

You asked:

If we all agreed on everything, there would be no need for forums. Do you think this will happen eventually?

The answer is:

YES!

I hope you were reading what I wrote in that post earlier, I cannot remember the name but it seems locked, where I explained why.

The knowledge of the truth turns people to the truth of what is right and good for all mankind.

Just as it is inevitable for mankind to sin when ignorant to what is true; it is inevitable for mankind be righteous because what is true will be recognized and testified in due time.

In the meantime, since we have not yet passed to the other side of this mortal life, the righteous must live by faith because the knowledge of the truth has yet been seen with our eyes or understood with complete perfection in our hearts.

I am sorry again for my frustration.

May God Bless you! I should have bit my tongue!

:boyheart: :girlheart:

So sorry if I caused a problem with my word "sovereignty" I guess I should have used the word "freewill". My fault for any misunderstandings. :mblush: I should have said we are few in number who do not believe in freewill. I don't apologize for my belief but only if I said something to offend any one. It was not my intention to cause any one frustrations. I was actually shocked to come back and see that what I said was upsetting to you.   :mshock: Again, I truly apologize for my misuse of words, I didn't mean any harm to you.   :HeartThrob: I will try to be more careful in the future.   :IloveU:

CHB

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 10, 2008, 08:15:20 AM
Dealing with lies concerning what I believe among those who supposedly understand salvation for all, is just disappointing.

A person can state their belief and be good; however the moment they begin to tell lies concerning about another person's belief, is another.

This is not a thing of peace, I am quite self-sufficient. It is about the purpose of why this place exists.

A difference of opinion is one thing, but telling me that because I believe in free will that I do not believe in the Sovereignty of God.

Why would a person even put up with that?

Yup!  It's never been an issue of anyone here not believing in God's Sovereignty.  It's always been about the villification of those that believe in free will as well.  Anyone that believes in the Universal Restoration believes in God's Sovereignty, but how God in His Sovereignty chooses to relate to each of us and to acheive His end goals is where there's seemed to be absolutely no tolerance towards those with an understanding of free will.  Someone kept throwing in my face that free will wasn't Scriptural and wasn't to be found in the whole of the Bible, and they tend to use the KJV as a Universalist.  So, I picked up my Strong's Concordance yesterday morning and looked up Sovereign and Sovereignty and like I figured, it's not to be found in the whole of the KJV.  Not even a word specifically implying it in either the Hebrew or Greek, according to Strong's.  (I read really fast, but count slowly sometimes.)  But with Sovereignty not being found in Strong's in a translation that was produced when belief in God's Sovereignty was at it's zenith (although I realize that there have been countless revisions to the KJV), I decided to see if the Bible said anything about freewill, simply from the standpoint of the Concordance.  And here's what I found.  In the KJV these terms are used and here's how many times they're used:

Strong's Concordance says that the KJV uses the word "free" 58 times, freewill 17 times, freed 2 times, freely 16 times, freewoman 3 times, selfwill is used 1 time, selfwilled is used 2 times, and liberty is used 27 times.  I got lazy on counting out the word "will" so I asked Biblegateway.com how many times "will" is used and it counted 'em up as 2908 times, willing is used 54 times, willeth is used 1 time, wilt is 208 times, and would is used 437 times.

Everyone with any Scriptural sense is going to acknowledge that many, many of those uses of the word "Will" are going to be in the sense of the will of God, but I'd be deeply surprised if it wasn't over 500 that refer to the will of man, because of my own Church background where man's will was actually taught from the Scriptures rather than improvised by nice sounding flowery new age-isms like you find in a lot of Churches that don't keep it to the Book.  Again, no one who believes in the Universal Restoration has ever asserted that God isn't Sovereign.  It's the unwillingness of some to acknowledge that man has a will that's anything but corrupt where those who believe in free will take issue.  Liberty seems to be the KJV word that comes closer to the idea of what people mean that use the term "free will" or "freewill" around here, although free, freely, would, and will would also be [KJV] Scriptural terms for what someone believing in free will is referring to. 

God overrides our free will when it's in our best interests or when it's in the best interests of His own glory, or where it relates to a Covenant issue that He's keeping to the thousandth generation, as when He turns the heart of the king/prime minister/president where He wishes.  But not much besides.  It's pretty much our own decision and varying degrees of blindness that determines whether or not our socks are matching that we're wearing today.  Most of the time, His overriding of someone's will winds up being about His providing hand to someone that's keeping Covenant with Him, or at least on their knees before Him pushing past every demonic obstacle in prayer.  What He did with Pharaoh was in the behalf of Israel, what He did with Christ Jesus was about our provisions, etc., etc. 

People confuse the Jubilee principle of the Scriptures with the natural laws of the harvest that Jesus described in Mark 4.  The years of release and years of Jubilee where God demands the preaching of liberty throughout the land are entirely different from the normal years where the free will of man is where it's generally going to naturally flow towards as to whether or not there's liberty or captivity.  There are no Scriptural laws of the harvest (i.e. 2Corinthians 9, Galatians 6, et. al.) without free will.  And 2Corinthians 8:12 says that this is according to what a man has and not according to what he doesn't have, so the arguments about all of the externals and internals that man seemingly has no control over are irrelevant to the conversation.  But at the same time, whenever we reach a fullness of time on certain things, God is going to have every single fruit and every single seed that corresponds with His predetermined will for Him to have.

Hiya CHB,

I again apologize!

I was writing too late at night.

I have a few people who used to be my friends telling everyone that I am a Unitarian Universalist.

They keep saying things, "Oh Yuni is not a Christian, but a Unitarian," anytime we went out with other friends.

I am not a Unitarian, I am a Universalist. I don't believe that every god and religion leads us to the same place as Unitarians believe.

They then say, "Well, unlike Yuni, we are Christian." when I talk about things of Christ.

It is frustrating!

I receive an invite in my facebook to visit Tentmaker website and found this forum.

I know I came on strong talking about it; but, some things people were saying about those who believe in free will, really reminded me of what I go through in my life dealing with people continually misrepresenting what I believe.

I come to this forum and I am told that that I do not believe in the Sovereignty of God simply because I believe we have free will?

So when I saw your reply saying you were one of the few who believed in the Sovereignty of God, I was like, "Oh brother."

So I again sorry for being frustrated.

:mblush: :msealed:

Col 1:18 And He'  is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn outfrom among the dead, that in all He'  may be becoming first,


As far as the actual word Sovereign, correct, it is not in scripture,  the CLV gets it from

G746  arche  ar-khay'

from G756;

(properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various
applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the)
first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

G756  archomai  ar'-khom-ahee
middle voice of G757 (through the implication, of precedence);
to commence (in order of time):--(rehearse from the) begin(-ning).
Freewill in the old testament is from

H5071  ndabah  ned-aw-baw'

from H5068;

properly (abstractly) spontaneity, or (adjectively) spontaneous; also
(concretely) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift:--free(-
will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary(-ily, offering), willing(-ly), offering).

H5068  nadab  naw-dab'

a primitive root;

to impel; hence, to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously:--offer
freely, be (give, make, offer self) willing(-ly).


In the new testament

G1595  hekousion  hek-oo'-see-on

neuter of a derivative from G1635;

voluntariness:--willingly.


G1635  hekon  hek-own'

of uncertain affinity;

voluntary:--willingly.


To avoid hijacking the thread any further, I will refrain from any other comments, lol

Hi Paul,

Thanks for pointing out where the Concordant Literal uses the word "Sovereign."  I hadn't thought to look in the Concordance in the back of my Concordant for any usages of that word.  That's probably why the Lord had me restrain myself from saying in my last post that it's a word that's usually only used in the really bad translations like the NIV.  Unless I'm misreading my Concordant Literal Translation's Concordance at the back of the Testament, it seems to be indicating that that's the only place where the Word "Sovereign" comes up in the New Testament.  It's their translation based upon usage in that particular context.  When you look at "Sovereign" in the Concordance at the back of the Concordant New Testament it says to see the word "Origin" and that's where I only find that one and only listing for it in the New Testament from Colossians.

Perhaps it's my Word of Faith background surfacing and horribly tainting my perceptions in the way that some would view it, but that idea that the Sovereignty of God only comes up in Scripture in connection to prosperity, or God's providing Hand where something or someone is concerned; some aspect of His plan, and usually involving some segment of His people that He's engineering some element of prosperity in their lives is an idea that won't leave me.  I keep thinking of more and more examples of that in the Scriptures.  Any Scripture that comes to mind with any of the Sovereignty folks should probably be challenged by them in their meditation time with the question "Where's the Prosperity in this?  What or Who is being prospered as a result of this?" 

And that may turn out to be, upon careful further examination, the way to Scripturally judge whether you're talking about an area of God's Sovereignty at work in your life or whether you're simply allowing yourself to be robbed and beaten down by the devil: Is God genuinely using this or that for His glory in a way that can Scripturally be judged and perceived by unbelievers that He's calling to Himself?  And in what way is God fully prospering His firstborn people/elect within the context of this eon by this or that?  And if you can't Scripturally answer both of those questions in an edifying way, then you're nose to nose with the devil and not with God in the situation and need to rebuke it and cast it out and stand against the situation with the promises of God at absolutely all costs of fasting, prayer, meditation in the Scriptures, and screaming the Word of God if necessary until the Holy Spirit manifests and actually brings glory to Christ Jesus in your deliverance, being provided for, etc.

One of my deepest concerns for weeks and weeks was the apparent fatalism in Sovereignty teaching and mistakenly submitting to the devil rather than to God situation by situation without a Scriptural balance being conveyed in any of the teaching along those lines around here.  But I believe that God is now opening my eyes to the just balance in that and how to Scripturally judge that and the fruit of whatever is going on, as to whether it's a genuine area of God's Sovereignty or a devil that genuinely and literally needs to be cast out. 

If it doesn't bring glory to the finished work of Christ, then it is most definitely not an area of God's Sovereignty at work and you need to cast it out even if it takes fasting 40 days and confessing the Word night and day without sleep until you're fully persuaded of His victory over every area of your life in ways that are redemptive and that knit you in a greater way to God's love and provision.  If it's trying to prevent the will of God from coming to pass of your being exalted without measure by the abundance of the revelations, then it's time to believe [for once] that God's grace is sufficient rather than insufficient and rebuke and cast it out 'cause God is fully behind your being exalted by the provisions of Christ as a testimony to a wicked and perverse generation among whom you're to shine as a light in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star arises in their hearts!

Quote from: Martincisneros
One of my deepest concerns for weeks and weeks was the apparent fatalism in Sovereignty teaching and mistakenly submitting to the devil rather than to God situation by situation without a Scriptural balance being conveyed in any of the teaching along those lines around here.  But I believe that God is now opening my eyes to the just balance in that and how to Scripturally judge that and the fruit of whatever is going on, as to whether it's a genuine area of God's Sovereignty or a devil that genuinely and literally needs to be cast out.

Martin,

I hope I am misunderstanding you and you are not saying that we who do not believe in freewill are of the devil?  Forgive me if I am wrong here. Do you think we have a devil that has to be cast out? Am trying to understand what you are saying here. I hear this from ET'rs all the time because I believe in Universal Salvation.  :sigh:

CHB

Quote from: martincisneros on December 10, 2008, 05:21:45 PM

And that may turn out to be, upon careful further examination, the way to Scripturally judge whether you're talking about an area of God's Sovereignty at work in your life or whether you're simply allowing yourself to be robbed and beaten down by the devil: Is God genuinely using this or that for His glory in a way that can Scripturally be judged and perceived by unbelievers that He's calling to Himself?  And in what way is God fully prospering His firstborn people/elect within the context of this eon by this or that?  And if you can't Scripturally answer both of those questions in an edifying way, then you're nose to nose with the devil and not with God in the situation and need to rebuke it and cast it out and stand against the situation with the promises of God at absolutely all costs of fasting, prayer, meditation in the Scriptures, and screaming the Word of God if necessary until the Holy Spirit manifests and actually brings glory to Christ Jesus in your deliverance, being provided for, etc.

I tend to agree with this and it is why arguments over terms cause a misrepresentation of both scripture and Gods will.


According to the usage and defintion of the word that is translated sovereign, God is the beginning power and his power takes precedence.   And as you said, no body that believes in  UR and some fashion of liberty within our will denies that.

The scriptural case can be made for both Gods control and our liberty,  that liberty cannot change Gods precedence of power.  However, because both are depicted in scripture, then we must apply scripture to our lives and not "terms".


Focusing on a term is one factor that hinders people from over coming addictions.   Depression sets in as we think we are so free as to stop anything we do, so we get painted as  bad people.  Futility can set in when we repeat a behavior and it is thought there is no use because God is the controller.

When you apply scripture it is the balance of Gods control and our will that should be seen to understand to never give up trying to be better no matter how futile or how bad we seem to be.   Always try, because there is a purpose behind the struggle.

I have overcome things that I was stuck in for years,  I would have been stuck in them for much longer and probably would still do them today if I just took the attitude that well, I'll stop when God prys the cold beer out of my hand.  

Did God control the events that caused me to voluntarily give it up?   Yes indeed I believe so.  Did God pry the beer our of my hand?   No, he did not.

Might he in some cases?   I believe he can and does.   The problem with arguing over "terms" is the issue becomes "either / or" instead of seeing Gods work in peoples lives through scripture.

Quote from: CHB on December 10, 2008, 05:44:44 PM
Martin,

I hope I am misunderstanding you and you are not saying that we who do not believe in freewill are of the devil?  Forgive me if I am wrong here. Do you think we have a devil that has to be cast out? Am trying to understand what you are saying here. I hear this from ET'rs all the time because I believe in Universal Salvation.  :sigh:

CHB

Yup!  That was a pretty bad misunderstanding of what I was saying.  I was talking about the situations that we face in life and the approach of whether we're submitting to everything that comes along since there's nothing that isn't from God in the apparent view of some, and where the Scriptures say that some things are from the devil and should be cast out.  If we're not able to say with Apostle Paul, "I've been delivered from all of these afflictions" then we've not yet fully partaken of the grace of God and haven't fully accepted the promises by which St. Peter said that we're made partakers and participants in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that's in the world through lust.  If we're not escaping the curse of this world and are still being defeated by circumstances then it's time to do a reality check on what we really believe was acheived at the Cross because that was for our deliverance and not for our continued shame. 

It's the devil that's looking to shame us and bring disappointment to the world when we who know Christ Jesus and His mighty power aren't having a better lot in life than they are.  The Scripture talks about those whose glorying is in their shame and whose end is destruction.  Everything in the New Testament calls upon us to resist those things that we've been redeemed from by the sufferings of Christ.  He bore our sin, so we're to resist it, according to Romans 6.  He bore our poverty, according to 2Corinthians 8:9, therefore we're obligated to believe the Gospel and give until we've broken the back of that curse of poverty on our lives and walk into the place that God has for us where we're fully equipped for every good work.  Everything He bore for us, we're obligated to resist as partakers in the fellowship of His sufferings, being made comformable unto His death in order to obtain the resurrection from the dead in each of these situations that we face in life. 

I was referring to an outlook on life that's either overcoming with Christ or that's resisting God, submitting to the devil, and causing God to flee from our lives until the consummation of the ages when Christ abolishes death and delivers all up to God as fully restored from their death of trespasses.  I was not referring to people who believe in God's sovereignty being demonized, because as I've continually said again and again and again there's not a single person who believes in the Universal Restoration that doesn't believe in God's Sovereignty. 

I was talking about how to judge the fruit of what's going on in our lives and what we're the most yielded to, whether the Blessing or the Curse.  If Christ's work isn't fully being glorified in any of my circumstances and if His salvation isn't being beautified to all of the nations to where they're wanting what I have, then there's a devil on the loose somewhere in my life that needs to be cast out, whether it's in my body, my finances, my area of what I'm doing with my life, whether my mind is fully renewed to the victory side of life in walking hand in hand with Christ Jesus as a King and Priest in life through the abundance of grace and gift of righteousness that I've been a recipient of, etc.  My concern has been regarding a hyper sovereignty perspective that tries to say that whatever will be, will be when 75% of the pages of the New Testament rebuke such an outlook on life and calls upon us to put on the whole armor of God and to bring every thought into subjection to the obedience of Christ Jesus, having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience when our obedience is fulfilled.

Quote from: martincisneros on December 10, 2008, 04:31:20 PM
Strong's Concordance says that the KJV uses the word "free" 58 times, freewill 17 times, freed 2 times, freely 16 times, freewoman 3 times, selfwill is used 1 time, selfwilled is used 2 times, and liberty is used 27 times.  I got lazy on counting out the word "will" so I asked Biblegateway.com how many times "will" is used and it counted 'em up as 2908 times, willing is used 54 times, willeth is used 1 time, wilt is 208 times, and would is used 437 times.

Something strange with freewill in Strong's....
Indeed it's 17 times in KJV.
If you use software that shows the greek/hebrew word for freewill you will notice that only 1 verse Ezra 7:13 has strong's linked to it.
All other 16 verse are "freewill offering" According to Strong that's based on one Aramaic word. The same word as when freewill is used on itself.
Usually things inserted by the translators are printed in a cursive font. Not in this case.

Same weird thing in Rev 21:7 and 21:3 James 4:8 among several others.
No cursive font and the word will (not freewill) has no 'source word'
Other verses show will with a 'source word'

If we look at the meaning it give me no insight in the whole freewill discussion because the red and blue variant differ greatly in meaning.

You find the diffrences in interpretation in several books on TM.
God will save everyone. The red or blue will make a big difference here.
Same applies to humans. I can will to post a smiley in this post.
I can also will to earn a billion $ an hour.
But I can't will to earn a billion $ an hour.

QuoteG2307
θέλημα
thelēma
thel'-ay-mah
From the prolonged form of G2309; a determination (properly the thing), that is, (actively) choice (specifically purpose, decree; abstractly volition) or (passively) inclination: - desire, pleasure, will.

The 'trouble' starts in:
Genesis 2:18  And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

It's clear Eve was created shortly after that verse.
Now look at the word will...
Again it has no 'source word' it's teaming together as "will make"
I don't know how its called in English but most of the time it has the form(at) of:
to help
to walk
to think

So looking back at my own post I have to conclude that will is a strange word in connection with Strongs. And then I'm not trying to debate if will is or isn't free.

Thoughts please.

Quote from: martincisneros on December 10, 2008, 06:01:08 PM

Yup!  That was a pretty bad misunderstanding of what I was saying.  I was talking about the situations that we face in life and the approach of whether we're submitting to everything that comes along since there's nothing that isn't from God in the apparent view of some, and where the Scriptures say that some things are from the devil and should be cast out.  If we're not able to say with Apostle Paul, "I've been delivered from all of these afflictions" then we've not yet fully partaken of the grace of God and haven't fully accepted the promises by which St. Peter said that we're made partakers and participants in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that's in the world through lust.  If we're not escaping the curse of this world and are still being defeated by circumstances then it's time to do a reality check on what we really believe was acheived at the Cross because that was for our deliverance and not for our continued shame.

I see.  :happy3: I don't think there is a single one of us who have gotten to to the point you speak of. 

Quote from: martincisneros
It's the devil that's looking to shame us and bring disappointment to the world when we who know Christ Jesus and His mighty power aren't having a better lot in life than they are.  The Scripture talks about those whose glorying is in their shame and whose end is destruction.  Everything in the New Testament calls upon us to resist those things that we've been redeemed from by the sufferings of Christ.  He bore our sin, so we're to resist it, according to Romans 6.  He bore our poverty, according to 2Corinthians 8:9, therefore we're obligated to believe the Gospel and give until we've broken the back of that curse of poverty on our lives and walk into the place that God has for us where we're fully equipped for every good work.  Everything He bore for us, we're obligated to resist as partakers in the fellowship of His sufferings, being made comformable unto His death in order to obtain the resurrection from the dead in each of these situations that we face in life.

I respect your opinion. :happy3: Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us". As I said earlier, I have no argument with those who believe in freewill. I don't look down on any one who believes in freewill. i don't feel that they are any less a child of God than me. I just believe God has given us all different understandings about different things and I respect everyone's belief whether it is against what I believe or not.    

Quote from: martincisneros
I was referring to an outlook on life that's either overcoming with Christ or that's resisting God, submitting to the devil, and causing God to flee from our lives until the consummation of the ages when Christ abolishes death and delivers all up to God as fully restored from their death of trespasses.  I was not referring to people who believe in God's sovereignty being demonized, because as I've continually said again and again and again there's not a single person who believes in the Universal Restoration that doesn't believe in God's Sovereignty.

If I am responsible for these things then I am in a heap of trouble and it is really scary. I honestly believe if I believed in freewill I would give up on life its self. 

Quote from: martincisneros
I was talking about how to judge the fruit of what's going on in our lives and what we're the most yielded to, whether the Blessing or the Curse.  If Christ's work isn't fully being glorified in any of my circumstances and if His salvation isn't being beautified to all of the nations to where they're wanting what I have, then there's a devil on the loose somewhere in my life that needs to be cast out, whether it's in my body, my finances, my area of what I'm doing with my life, whether my mind is fully renewed to the victory side of life in walking hand in hand with Christ Jesus as a King and Priest in life through the abundance of grace and gift of righteousness that I've been a recipient of, etc.  My concern has been regarding a hyper sovereignty perspective that tries to say that whatever will be, will be when 75% of the pages of the New Testament rebuke such an outlook on life and calls upon us to put on the whole armor of God and to bring every thought into subjection to the obedience of Christ Jesus, having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience when our obedience is fulfilled.

The above is just a difference of perception of the scriptures.

CHB

Hi WW

Revelation 22:17  Re 22:17 And the spirit and the bride are saying,  `Come!'  and let him who is hearing say,  `Come!'  And let him who is thirsting come. Let him who will, take the water of life gratuitously.




G2309  thelo    thel'-o
or    ethelo   eth-el'-o,    in certain tenses
     theleo   thel-eh'-o,
and   etheleo  eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete

apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138;

to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014
properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations),
i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be
inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense,
to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:--desire, be disposed (forward),
intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).


G138  haireomai  hahee-reh'-om-ahee

probably akin to G142;

to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:--choose. Some of the forms are borrowed
from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.


I'm not sure where we may go over freewill, so I am not going to present a case only the usage and root influence of the word used for will in this verse implies a certain freedom that man is afforded here.

Quote from: CHB on December 10, 2008, 06:38:45 PM
I respect your opinion. :happy3: Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us".

I'm just extracting this one quote not to bring a refutation to you by selective quoting but to say how I see this.


Paul came to that conclusion because he ended up understanding that. The point I have been trying to make is that GOD did not control Paul to say that but worked on Pauls freedom till he understood it.   

If we continue to focus on the term and assert that it must be either/or, then we actually miss the miracle that humanity actually is.   

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 10, 2008, 06:51:52 PM
If we continue to focus on the term and assert that it must be either/or, then we actually miss the miracle that humanity actually is.

EXACTLY. :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
Paul came to that conclusion because he ended up understanding that. The point I have been trying to make is that GOD did not control Paul to say that but worked on Pauls freedom till he understood it

Sure he came to understand that because God revealed it to him.  :bigGrin:

CHB

Quote from: CHB on December 10, 2008, 07:06:33 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
Paul came to that conclusion because he ended up understanding that. The point I have been trying to make is that GOD did not control Paul to say that but worked on Pauls freedom till he understood it

Sure he came to understand that because God revealed it to him.  :bigGrin:

CHB

Yes, and therefore did not have to "control" his will.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 10, 2008, 06:46:53 PM
Hi WW
I'm not sure where we may go over freewill, so I am not going to present a case only the usage and root influence of the word used for will in this verse implies a certain freedom that man is afforded here.

Hi Paul,

My intention is not to start a freewill discussion. I have my idea's about it. I would like to know more about it. But I'm around here long enough to know that it only causes trouble and nothing is learned.

My reply was basicly observations:
a] Strongs 'behaves odd' with that word.
b] The meaning of the word (according to Strongs) is that it can either mean 100% or 0% freewill (without context)

To avoid trouble I would just want to know about a]
Maybe that general knowledge gives me more insight to use Strongs correctly....

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2008, 07:33:14 PM

Maybe that general knowledge gives me more insight to use Strongs correctly....

From what I understand, strongs is limited for two reasons.

1. It is based on the King James version (correct me if I am wrong) 
2. It's intent is to help with intepreting scripture rather than to help understand the Hebrew and Greek languages.

 :hijacked:

You "lost" me at hello (get it?? "hello" the thread . . .??? . . . MAN I'm funny!!) :myahoo:

So if a hijacked thread gets back on topic is that a Rehijacked thread?

Hiya!

I believe everyone's discussion is good and all, though the issue is not free will or Gods Sovereignty.

My intent of my post was to make it fully known how frustrating it is to have someone's assumptions attributed as my belief.

Something which I would expect some respect and courtesy concerning.

If people continue to do that, it comes to a point where I want nothing to do with them.

How beneficial is that in a place where we are supposed to come together?

:mblush: :mshock:

willieH: Hi Martin... :hithere:

As you have herein been and ADVOCATE for the "FREE WILL of men",... :yes:

I am herein noted as an ADVOCATE for the OPPOSITE...  :cloud9:

Quote from: martincisneros on December 10, 2008, 04:31:20 PM
I decided to see if the Bible said anything about freewill, simply from the standpoint of the Concordance.  And here's what I found.  In the KJV these terms are used and here's how many times they're used:

Strong's Concordance says that the KJV uses the word "free" 58 times, freewill 17 times, freed 2 times, freely 16 times, freewoman 3 times, selfwill is used 1 time, selfwilled is used 2 times, and liberty is used 27 times.  I got lazy on counting out the word "will" so I asked Biblegateway.com how many times "will" is used and it counted 'em up as 2908 times, willing is used 54 times, willeth is used 1 time, wilt is 208 times, and would is used 437 times.

These stats are meaningless unless the term is used IN CONJUNCTION with MAN's WILL as "FREE"...  The words N'DAB, N'DABAH, and NEDAB are all used concerning offerings... not SPECIFICALLY referring to the WILL of MAN, engaged in his on-going CHOOSING...

To name the appearance of words such as... FREE, WILL, WILLETH, WILT, WOULD, etc... is irrelevant unless they are used to the STATE of the WILL of MAN as FREE...

In order to establish FREE WILL as a teaching, it must be found and noted as a TEACHING of THE WORD...

My best and STRONGEST case is made in the life of CHRIST, concerning the ABSENCE of "FREE WILL" in men... CHRIST was a MAN (1 Tim 2:5)

His ENTIRE LIFE, was found in subjection, NOT to his own "free will" rather, was lived according to the WILL of YHVH...

In other words, He had no "free will" of His own, his life was DECLARED by GOD in Scripture, and then lived as the SCRIPTURE (in EVERLASTING TERMS), notes it to be lived ...the DECLARATION of GOD...

In that life CHRIST was never found doing other than the WILL of YHVH which life found Him to be FREE of SIN at its conclusion...   

Whereas the "WILL" of MEN, takes them into SIN (James 1:14), which is a BONDAGE from which they must be DELIVERED by a SAVIOR... Such a WILL cannot be considered FREE for it's manifestation produces ENSLAVEMENT to SIN.  :dontknow:

JESUS walked according to that which was PROPHECIED of Him... and His "WILL" did not supercede the PROPHECY... He did NOT have the OPTION to do otherwise, ...and in the most PERTINENT sense, ...was BOUND to walk by those PROPHECIES, to the LETTER...  By walking in that COMPLETE subjection (absent of "His will" as a man) to that which YHVH mapped out in Scripture... He FULFILLED them, and established the FREEDOM of GOD'S WILL in doing so...

MEN who do otherwise in life, and are also "mapped out" by YHVH in Scripture, ... however CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF (bondage)... and are found FULFILLING the Scriptures as well, which note "ALL HAVE SINNED and COME SHORT of the glory of GOD"... as well as "NONE DOETH GOOD, no... NOT ONE"!  :dontknow:

Thereby verifying the difference between a WILL which is FREE (CHRIST) and which shall REIGN FOREVER... and a WILL which is IN BONDAGE to ITSELF (that of MEN), which shall be DISSOLVED within and BY the conclusion of the course of TIME... (before the LAST DAY ends)... :yes:

Of the 17 times that "FREEWILL" is used in the WORD, 16 of them are connected with OFFERING in their context - SPECIFICALLY on a voluntary basis... (#5071 N'DABAH - from #5068 NADAB)

The ONLY other one used is the word #H5069 - N'DAB... which specifically means FREEWILL offering...

NONE of these discuss in their context, or even DENOTE the WILL of MEN... nor do they define what "CHOICE" is, as done by MEN...

QuoteGod overrides our free will when it's in our best interests or when it's in the best interests of His own glory, or where it relates to a Covenant issue that He's keeping to the thousandth generation, as when He turns the heart of the king/prime minister/president where He wishes.

Where in Scripture is this stated Martin?  Please note where what you state above in BLUE is said in the WORD of GOD...  :dontknow:

This is NOT what Scripture states about the WILL of man at all...

Scripture states the HEART ("will") is DESPARATELY WICKED (Jer 17:9), and that NO MAN is ABLE (of his "will") to come to CHRIST (John 6:44), without the aid of YHVH...

It also states that GOD is the one which brings about MERCY in each, and in that process He denotes the FAULTS of MEN to be manifest, as the POTTER decides (Rom 9:21)  HE MAKES one vessel of the SAME LUMP, unto honor, and HE MAKES another unto DISHONOR...

The CLAY does not MAKE ITSELF (via its "will")... ANYTHING honorable, or dishonorable!  It is the Creation of YHVH that makes one vessel DISHONORABLE and the other HONORABLE...

QuoteBut not much besides.  It's pretty much our own decision and varying degrees of blindness that determines whether or not our socks are matching that we're wearing today.  Most of the time, His overriding of someone's will winds up being about His providing hand to someone that's keeping Covenant with Him, or at least on their knees before Him pushing past every demonic obstacle in prayer.  What He did with Pharaoh was in the behalf of Israel, what He did with Christ Jesus was about our provisions, etc., etc.

Again this is the "devising" that men do via choice which is NOTED they would do... Those choices are according to the DECLARATION of YHVH, done before the Creation...

I'm not advocating anything.  I have nothing to defend of what I read in the Word.

willieH: Hi Martin...  :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on December 11, 2008, 03:42:09 PM
I'm not advocating anything.  I have nothing to defend of what I read in the Word.

  :mblush: Sorry if I misunderstood your position bro... no offense was intended neither "defense" either!    :bigGrin:

Seemed by the wordings and effort you made, that you are in strong support of FREE WILL...

And might I add, that you are quite correct... There is no need for any of us to "defend" what we believe... all we need to do is study, find foundation for that which we believe, and then stand by that belief, until such time GOD should make changes in it, as we continue to search...   :thumbsup:

--------------------------
accidental "edit" willi, I don't think anything was actually changed  :mblush:

Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

QuoteAnd might I add, that you are quite correct... There is no need for any of us to "defend" what we believe... all we need to do is study, find foundation for that which we believe, and then stand by that belief, until such time GOD should make changes in it, as we continue to search... 

:thumbsup:

Hi WillieH,

I do believe in free will, but don't have anything that I need to prove on finer points like that 'cause if you never "got it" (and vice versa) it could simply be a matter of where we fit in the Body.  God could literally be telling me to go and pick out how many stones I want for my Goliath and all of his brothers, while He could literally be telling you nothing more than "Be still and know that I AM God."  In which case, beyond the "Scriptural proofs" on either side of the issue, if it's not where God has us or wants us, then we're spitting in the wind even if both of us ever sorta got where the other was coming from.  But if it wasn't our position in the Body where that knowledge would be the most profitable, then I'd be trying to teach a foot how to help me blow my nose or my nose how to clean my butt. 

I [genuinely] wouldn't be pleased with either result if the lesson were fully comprehended by the other part of the Body.  Might be a neat trick for a late night cable television program, where they'd pay someone a billion dollars to do it just once, but not for practical, daily life.  I can completely disagree with you, Tony N., and others on the Sovereignty of God being taken that far, while you could disagree about Choice being in your hands that far and all of us be 100% right depending on how Christ is constructing the Body.  Each of us is fully confident -- it ought to be obvious by now -- that we've got Scriptural authority for what we're asserting even if we haven't fully proven anything to someone with a so-called opposing view point.  The lips on my face don't need to know how my butt does certain things and vice versa, otherwise there's hopeless and even grotesque confusion.

Between what you've just said and something that was said on the mod board, I've thought of a new topic, but need a minute to cool my jets [on wanting to go there] and think through if it's appropriate for the Tentmaker Forum and if so then the figuring out of where to start the thread.  If it's too gray area on appropriateness for the forum, I'm posting this 'cause I'll likely be PMing quite a few folks for feedback about it if I feel any "bleh!" about going there on the boards.  My gray area on it is that for those without self control it can lead to inappropriate textual criticism for this forum.  It'll be on the ML or CLG boards if I decide to go ahead.

Did you know that glory is a verb?

Psalm 63:11
But the king shall rejoice in God; every one that sweareth by him shall glory: but the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped.


"shall glory"

H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

willieH: Hi Paul...  :dsunny:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 10, 2008, 04:56:26 PM
Col 1:18 And He'  is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn outfrom among the dead, that in all He'  may be becoming first,


As far as the actual word Sovereign, correct, it is not in scripture,  the CLV gets it from

G746  arche  ar-khay'

from G756;

(properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various
applications of order, time, place, or rank):--beginning, corner, (at the, the)
first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

"Sovereignty" is an english word... :yes:  and it's definition carries within it a COMPLETENESS of POWER...

FYI, the Word "ALMIGHTY" ( translated in NT) in the Greek -- #G3841 carries within its definition, SOVEREIGNTY...

The WORD is translated from Hebrew and Greek, by those who observe the Original language Words, and then endeavor to transfer that word from Hebrew or Greek to its best or most accomodating ENGLISH word...  :yes:

The word ALMIGHTY (Hebrew: #H7706 SHADDAY / Greek: #G3841 PANTOKRATOR) ...is probably the best descriptive ENGLISH word which equates to SOVEREIGNTY...

The English word ALMIGHTY means that "ALL MIGHT" encompassed in whatever the word is describing (Rom 13:1), and finds its "power" emanating from that same entity... If ALL MIGHT is determined emerging from the same, single source, then SOVEREIGNTY also appears... for NO MIGHT is found originating in any other source...

In other words... If ALL THINGS emerge from and return to, the same source (which they do - Col 1:16)... and ALL THINGS thereby have beginning and end in that source (Rev 1:8)... then the MIGHT, ORIGIN and DESTINY in and of ALL THINGS are founded upon the SAME foundation... (1 Cor 3:11)

Hiya!

???????????????????????????????????????

:cloud9:

willieH: Hi Martin... :dsunny:

Quote from: martincisneros on December 12, 2008, 02:57:14 AM
Hi WillieH,

I do believe in free will, but don't have anything that I need to prove on finer points like that 'cause if you never "got it" (and vice versa) it could simply be a matter of where we fit in the Body.  God could literally be telling me to go and pick out how many stones I want for my Goliath and all of his brothers, while He could literally be telling you nothing more than "Be still and know that I AM God."  In which case, beyond the "Scriptural proofs" on either side of the issue, if it's not where God has us or wants us, then we're spitting in the wind even if both of us ever sorta got where the other was coming from.  But if it wasn't our position in the Body where that knowledge would be the most profitable, then I'd be trying to teach a foot how to help me blow my nose or my nose how to clean my butt. 

I [genuinely] wouldn't be pleased with either result if the lesson were fully comprehended by the other part of the Body.  Might be a neat trick for a late night cable television program, where they'd pay someone a billion dollars to do it just once, but not for practical, daily life.  I can completely disagree with you, Tony N., and others on the Sovereignty of God being taken that far, while you could disagree about Choice being in your hands that far and all of us be 100% right depending on how Christ is constructing the Body.  Each of us is fully confident -- it ought to be obvious by now -- that we've got Scriptural authority for what we're asserting even if we haven't fully proven anything to someone with a so-called opposing view point.  The lips on my face don't need to know how my butt does certain things and vice versa, otherwise there's hopeless and even grotesque confusion.

I haven't seen any SCRIPTURAL proof of FREE WILL posted in any of the discussions... CHOICE does not indicate the doctrine of FREE WILL... if this were so it can be claimed that flies, ants, fish, cats and dogs for goodness sake... all have FREE WILL, because they ALL "choose" as they move through life...

FREE WILL is proposing that GOD's WILL can be overidden by a created entity... I do not see this is so... for to override the WILL of GOD, means that He can no longer claim to be ALMIGHTY... for a "MIGHT" outside Him, ...has "FREELY" NEGATED of itself, the doings of GOD... :mnah:

I guess we have what we have...

I can explain UR to an ET person till I'm blue in the face, and they will NEVER, "get it" unless GOD opens their eyes to it...  I simply see this difference being the same kind of animal! (FREE WILL vs SOVEREIGNTY)

QuoteBetween what you've just said and something that was said on the mod board, I've thought of a new topic, but need a minute to cool my jets [on wanting to go there] and think through if it's appropriate for the Tentmaker Forum and if so then the figuring out of where to start the thread.  If it's too gray area on appropriateness for the forum, I'm posting this 'cause I'll likely be PMing quite a few folks for feedback about it if I feel any "bleh!" about going there on the boards.  My gray area on it is that for those without self control it can lead to inappropriate textual criticism for this forum.  It'll be on the ML or CLG boards if I decide to go ahead.

You know... I find it interesting that those who believe in "free will" often get really uptight or upset... when confronted by those who believe in Complete Divine Sovereignty...  I wonder why this is?  Something to think about...  :Chinscratch:

I have no more problem with people believing they have "FREE WILL", than do I have with ET or HELL or any other teaching folks believe...  nor do I think that there shall ever be large numbers that really "get" any given "truth"... and thereby believe that SMALL numbers will prevail in ALL facets of TRUTH...

Those "numbers" were indicated by the Savior, for JESUS indicated that MANY would come in His name and decieve MANY... He did not say that, FEW would come in His name and decieve a FEW...  :dontknow:

MANY believe ET... FEW believe UR... MANY believe FREE WILL, FEW believe CDS... MANY believe Satan is a BEING, FEW believe it is the adversity of mans will... MANY believe in SALVATION of FEW, FEW believe in COMPLETE Salvation...

These things, must be so...  :sigh:

To know any of the "TRUTH" is not our decision... :mnah:

All that shall know it is WRITTEN and DECLARED...  and not ONE shall know any facet of truth, that has not been DECLARED they should KNOW it from the foundation of the World... (Eph 1:11)  Pre-destination is not for ONE man and not another... that would declare GOD as PARTIAL...

ALL THINGS begin and end in CHRIST, which is PREDESTINATION... for ALL THINGS...

Because we, as FINITES cannot or will not SEE, a given thing as PREDESTINED, does not mean it is not present...  as the SIGHT is given to some to SEE (Gentiles for instance), others it is NOT (Jews for instance)...

It is all part of the CONCLUSION of ALL THINGS... Both GOOD and EVIL, sight and blindness, death and life, etc...

ALL are going to happen according to the WILL of GOD which worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL (not ours)

That doctrinal fallacies exist and shall unto the end, is part of the plan of GOD in reconciling them to TRUTH... thereby GLORIFYING that reconciliative effort...

I wish you peace will robinson,  :mblush: ...er I mean Martin!  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieH on December 12, 2008, 04:37:51 AM
I wish you peace will robinson,  :mblush: ...er I mean Martin!  :laughing7:

Clym Yeobright maybe, but not Will Robinson.

Quote from: willieH on December 12, 2008, 02:19:07 AM

And might I add, that you are quite correct... There is no need for any of us to "defend" what we believe... all we need to do is study, find foundation for that which we believe, and then stand by that belief, until such time GOD should make changes in it, as we continue to search...   :thumbsup:

Wow, what an excellent summary statement and transitional opportunity  :whistleshake:.

Wow!!! willie, you sure do have a way of explaining things that I will never have.  Great posts. Thanks  :HeartThrob:  :thumbsup:

CHB

Quote from: willieH on December 12, 2008, 04:37:51 AM
I haven't seen any SCRIPTURAL proof of FREE WILL posted in any of the discussions... CHOICE does not indicate the doctrine of FREE WILL... if this were so it can be claimed that flies, ants, fish, cats and dogs for goodness sake... all have FREE WILL, because they ALL "choose" as they move through life...

You disagree with what has been said, rather than there having not been any example of it shown in scripture.

Quote

FREE WILL is proposing that GOD's WILL can be overidden by a created entity... I do not see this is so... for to override the WILL of GOD, means that He can no longer claim to be ALMIGHTY... for a "MIGHT" outside Him, ...has "FREELY" NEGATED of itself, the doings of GOD... :mnah:

If you disagree that God affording freedom within his boundaries is freewill, that is fine, but your argument with the term as stated above is certainly not anything I have proposed and few here have.   If indeed a person says that freedom can overpower Gods then we are in agreement on that aspect of things. 

A mouse within a maze is not free to cross the walls that make the paths in the maze but the mouse is free to go down wrong paths within the maze.  Of course sometimes, when the mouse is completely lost and has not ventured anywhere close to the path to the cheese I could grab the mouse and prompt it to go the correct way.   

That is how I see scripture and the relationship God has with mans will, and it definatly is how my life has went and even my wife understands that aspect of our life.   You can call it what you like, but the case you make above is not what I am saying.

Quote from: PaulA mouse within a maze is not free to cross the walls that make the paths in the maze but the mouse is free to go down wrong paths within the maze.  Of course sometimes, when the mouse is completely lost and has not ventured anywhere close to the path to the cheese I could grab the mouse and prompt it to go the correct way.

well, it's not quite that bad LOL!

We are qualitatively much closer to God than a mouse is to a man.

We are created in his image.  Indeed, we are meant to be his ambassador, agent, and brother of Christ.

Quite a difference, I'd say!

Hmmm .  . . does this passage in Phillippians support, refute, or have no bearing on the subject of free will?

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2008, 04:14:34 PM

Quote from: PaulA mouse within a maze is not free to cross the walls that make the paths in the maze but the mouse is free to go down wrong paths within the maze.  Of course sometimes, when the mouse is completely lost and has not ventured anywhere close to the path to the cheese I could grab the mouse and prompt it to go the correct way.

well, it's not quite that bad LOL!

We are qualitatively much closer to God than a mouse is to a man.

We are created in his image.  Indeed, we are meant to be his ambassador, agent, and brother of Christ.

Quite a difference, I'd say!

My intent was never to depict us as nothing more than a mouse.  It was analogy to the basic structure of how our will may be.

But in the pathways of life, Gods will cannot be over powered, I know we disagree on things, but I have my doubts that you disagree with me there.

I know that I have went down a dark path in my life, as a believer, knowing full well it was wrong, but I wanted to feed my flesh because  it was something I had never experienced and felt cheated that I never had.  

I am not convinced that Gods hand was directly on me forcing me to do that, nor did he directly ordain it's occurance.

People who are completely baffled by the concept of eternity cannot see how that can be.  

But down that path (in this maze of life) I found a dead end.  It was very difficult getting back to the narrow path, and God did grab a hold of me in a sense and prompt me to the right direction, even if that prompting was from the realization of how painful the dead end really was.

I was never apart from Gods will, but I did have a certain freedom to take the path that was a dead end.   That is the miracle of mankind.

Quote from: Nathan on December 12, 2008, 04:29:00 PM
Hmmm .  . . does this passage in Phillippians support, refute, or have no bearing on the subject of free will?

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Romans 6:12

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, so that you obey  its desires.

Quote from: Nathan on December 12, 2008, 04:29:00 PM
Hmmm .  . . does this passage in Phillippians support, refute, or have no bearing on the subject of free will?

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Hi Nathan I think the previous verse is often overlooked

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.  


What about  "When we have not always obeyed?"

Quote from: willieH on December 12, 2008, 04:37:51 AM
You know... I find it interesting that those who believe in "free will" often get really uptight or upset... when confronted by those who believe in Complete Divine Sovereignty...  I wonder why this is?  Something to think about...  :Chinscratch:

Hi there WillieH,

I do think about that and the answer is that a persons emotional reaction to anything is irrevalent to it's truth.  Whether intentional or not, the question you propose is most often asked only to cast the emotional light of favor onto a persons own beliefs rather than remain within the factual confines of scripture.   

There are people who do not believe in any kind of freedom of the will that will get uptight at those who believe there is.  Does that mean by your own words that you should now think about that? :Chinscratch:

These kinds of reactions in human beings happen all the time in any situation you can muster up.


I do not say this to offend, only to propose a view for the readers to contemplate.

If you really stop and think about it, free will or our will, however you want to see it, is a connection with works. They go hand in hand. Our works have gotten us into trouble with God and man since the beginning of time.

Take for instance Adam and Eve. God told them not to eat of the tree of good and evil, which he knew they would. They did and their nakedness, or sin was uncovered. They tried to cover their nakedness by their own works. They made themselves clothes out of fig leaves. Now you know what a big puff of wind would do to that?  :bigGrin: It took God to make them clothes out of skin, probably sheep. First sacrifice, blood was shed, sins was covered. Adam and Eve's work, or will was useless. A spiritual lesson that Christ would die for their sins.

Then we have Cain:
Cain and Able both offered sacrifices. Cain offered his works, the sweat of his brow, his will. God wasn't pleased with Cain's offering, why? Cain wasn't looking to the work of Christ, he depended on his own works, or will. Able offered a sheep, a forshadow of Christ. Able looked to God, Cain to his own works, or will.

Then we have Job:

Job was rich and respected in the streets, in Job's eyes he got the praise of man by his works or will. Job said "I have been eyes to the blind, I have fed the poor, I have been father to the fatherless. Do you see the I's here? Job couldn't understand why God was giving him all these trials because he had done everything perfect. Do you see a pattern, a puffing up, a boastful prideful pattern when it comes to our works or will?

Then we go to Nebuchadnezzar:

Neb had a dream and Daniel interpreted it for the king and told him his kingdom would be taken away and what would happen. What did Neb do? He walked into the palace and said "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom bythe might of my power. From that moment the kingdom was taken away from him. Neb braged about his works, his own will.

Then we get to the Pharisees:

They were a bunch of do do's. Lots of free will, works. They were proud of their works. Jesus called them snakes vipers hypocrites. See, they were proud, boastful, used their works and will to honor themselves and look good to man. This is what our will does for us, it causes us to look inward to ourselves instead of to God for all things.

Then we came to Paul:

Paul wasn't self righteous. He was different from the rest. Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us". Not by works of righteousness that we have done. (Tit. 3:5) (Gal. 2:21) Paul said "if righteousness came by the works of the law, then Christ is dead in vain". Not of works lest any man should boast.

You might say works and our will aren't the same but I think they are. Christ told his disciples they had to deny themselves what does that mean? Job said "I abhore myself" Neb said I blessed the most high, and I praised and honoured him. In verse 35 of Daniel chapter 4 what did Neb come to see. I will let you read it for yourselves.

I have to go out of town for a few days, if someone respondes to this I will answer it when I get back.

CHB   

Hi CHB,

You posted several things that I try to see in scripture.   As this issue gets discussed  there are views that it must be either / or.

Seeing freedom in our will does not negate the need to understand the Glory of God for "everything".  The pharasees being proud of themselves does not negate the freedom they had to do so.

It also does not mean that God never directly has his hand on our life.

It only means that as God has seen fit, he works "all" those aspects of things.   And as I have said in another thread.  The argument over the term is the hinderance,  I just point out how it appears in scripture to me and how my life has matched that variable aspect of things I mentioned.     

If someone says "that is not freewill"  oh well, that does not change anything.

Thanks for your comments.

Revelation 2

1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee


8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;  9 I know thy works, . . .

12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;  13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.  14But I have a few things against thee,


18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;  19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.  20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee . . .

Revelation 3
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.  2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;  8  I know thy works . . .

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot

Honestly, it is the contrast in scripture that I find that keeps me hunting within it even more.


Ja 2:18 But someone will be declaring,  "You'  have faith and I'  have works."  Show me your faith apart from the works and I'  shall be showing you my *faith by my works.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 12, 2008, 08:13:52 PM

Honestly, it is the contrast in scripture that I find that keeps me hunting within it even more.


Ja 2:18 But someone will be declaring,  "You'  have faith and I'  have works."  Show me your faith apart from the works and I'  shall be showing you my *faith by my works.

Yup
His Works In us are a LABOUR of Love

Hebrews 4 . . .the REST chapter
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Rom 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Some People just can't perceive where another person is coming from.  I myself have a hard time getting others to understand what I am saying.

Don't worry about what others can't perceive....it is their loss when they won't take any/many route/s at all to understand. Just let it go....must be over their heads.  Maybe a month or year from now they will get what it was.

And Hello to you!

God's love bless you!

hiya!

Why is my thread being used to discuss free will? That was not the intent of this post, neither do I appreciate it being ade the focus.

I guess I don't understand the reason it has gone down this path.

:sigh: :happy3:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 12, 2008, 04:03:55 PM
A mouse within a maze is not free to cross the walls that make the paths in the maze but the mouse is free to go down wrong paths within the maze.  Of course sometimes, when the mouse is completely lost and has not ventured anywhere close to the path to the cheese I could grab the mouse and prompt it to go the correct way.   

That is how I see scripture and the relationship God has with mans will, and it definatly is how my life has went and even my wife understands that aspect of our life.   You can call it what you like, but the case you make above is not what I am saying.

That is close is how I see it too except I believe that God is more than occaisionlly prompting or interacting with the maze.  I believe God is always prompting us and setting up the maze of choices with full knowlege of my will and full foreknowlege of which path I will choose at each juncture.  Therefore I am always on the exact path intended and determined by God and I am always on the exact path chosen and determined by my will.  It's not an either / or proposition.

BTW I disagee with another post that seemed to imply that God overrode pharoah's free will.  I do not believe God overrode pharoah's will or ability to choose at any point.  Pharoah's choices were as free or unfree as any normal choices.  The hardening of pharoah's heart was in complete accord with pharoah's choosing.

As far CHB's use of the term "total sovereignity" it should not be viewed as offensive any more than the term "hyper soveriegninty" is.  Both terms simply acknowlege that there is a difference in how far we go with God's sovereignity and assign a label to that difference.

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 13, 2008, 04:54:21 PM
hiya!

Why is my thread being used to discuss free will? That was not the intent of this post, neither do I appreciate it being ade the focus.

I guess I don't understand the reason it has gone down this path.

:sigh: :happy3:

Oops...  sorry.   I guess it's either because God ordained it, or because we freely chose to hijack your thread, or both.   :laughing7:

Nice recovery there. :Whistle:

:Whistle:

(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/perso3d/3d070.gif)

 

:beerburp: :beerburp:

Quote from: bobf on December 13, 2008, 06:07:43 PM

Quote from: YoungYuni on December 13, 2008, 04:54:21 PM
hiya!

Why is my thread being used to discuss free will? That was not the intent of this post, neither do I appreciate it being ade the focus.

I guess I don't understand the reason it has gone down this path.

:sigh: :happy3:

Oops...  sorry.   I guess it's either because God ordained it, or because we freely chose to hijack your thread, or both.   :laughing7:

LOL! BobF

In the Conduct, Etiquette and Courtesy section of the rules within this forum states:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2695.0

Let us also try and keep to the OP (original post) topic.

Do not hijack threads.  Stay on topic

If something is going to take the thread off topic, start a new thread.

So I know it most definitely is free-will.

:laughing7: :winkgrin:

Though I would appreciate that people would actually take the time to listen to each other, I am very confused by some of the reasons behind some actions people take especially when I asked many times that my thread not be used for a free will debate.

:icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

Hi YY
I Think Your Point has been Made, Can we drop it now. :icon_flower:

Taffy

Hiya,

After having dealing with this from the world, I have decided I will not deal with it here.

I have decided this is my last post.

I am new here, but already can tell that this is not where I belong.

I apologize for any hurtful offense that may have come because of my arrival here. There is no purpose to have discussions with people who have no reason to listen to each other.

Many here may have discovered the reality of salvation is for all mankind, but such knowledge is useless if nobody loves each other.

There are probably plenty of other places to have these discussions, but it is obvious that many in this forum have an agenda.

I empathized for those who thought they could find fellowship or discussion with like-minded individuals only to find themselves that many do not actually seek fellowship or gainful discussion.

May God bless those who have their hearts set on doing and thinking on the things which are good and wholesome and godly.

:girlheart:  :boyheart:

willieH: Hi Paul... :dsunny:

Quote from: willieH on December 12, 2008, 04:37:51 AM
You know... I find it interesting that those who believe in "free will" often get really uptight or upset... when confronted by those who believe in Complete Divine Sovereignty...  I wonder why this is?  Something to think about...  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 12, 2008, 05:52:50 PMHi there WillieH,

I do think about that and the answer is that a persons emotional reaction to anything is irrevalent to it's truth.

I can agree with that, although, emotion is often a response that emerges from, and of one, ...in an insecure position...

If one is confident in the Lord in where one stands, and has founded that place BY HIM, with HIS WORD,  ...how may another easily shake that place?   

There was admittedly a day (many of them for that matter  :mblush:), in which I, on a personal level, had not found establishment for what I believe, by MY OWN personal study and research of God's WORD...  rather, I had gained via offering my ears to hearsay, or invested a respect in another that what he/she was saying was actually so...  Since I went away from that environment (church) in early 2001, to an EXTREMELY ISOLATED place (for 3 months) called Dutch Harbor, Alaska...  Some great revelations took place...

First, it really revealed the true state of concern and love, the "brothers and sisters" of my church (of which we had been members almost 20yrs) had for my wife and I... which was literally NON EXISTANT... revealing their "LOVE" for what it was... SHALLOW, unsupportive, and basically anything but LOVE ... 

As much as this really "hurt"... it was part of the STRENGTH that GOD was giving to us in this moment... for only HE was there to LOVE us...

Second, with much time on my hands, I began to research the teachings which I found in question (such as HELL, ET, Eternal Separation, etc.) in the "church" doctrine... and

Third, the isolation gave me an opportunity to see clearly that which was before me in Scripture without anyone or any entity, presenting OUTSIDE information to distort it... :yes:

In the last 7.75 years of a 33 year walk... I have gained, through a dedicated, continuous and diligent search (that is a daily on-going matter)... a place where discussions of such beliefs I find contrary as, ..."free will", trinity, rapture, Eternal Separation from God, etc... does not shake me emotionally whatsoever, ...For the foundation I have to stand upon is the Rock, without necessitating the need for making any Additions, Subtractions, or Assumptions... to implement, establish or embellish that stand.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 12, 2008, 05:52:50 PMWhether intentional or not, the question you propose is most often asked only to cast the emotional light of favor onto a persons own beliefs rather than remain within the factual confines of scripture.

There have been so many verses posted which not only NOTE the Sovereignty, but ESTABLISH mans course as already done...

THAT is the "confines" of Scripture... When someone is set in a particular mindset, they will NOT recognize what Scripture SAYS, rather, they will garnish it with their mindset in order to maintain that mindset...

Reading Holy writings does NOT enable understanding... only the SPIRITUAL revelation of the TRUTH, performed by GOD in the heart of the individual, shall avail it... 

So even if argued from an ILLOGICAL position, the TRUTH of a given premise will still, NOT be established in the UNREVEALED mind... even after sufficient proofs which debunk that "illogical" stance have been adaquately presented.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 12, 2008, 05:52:50 PMThere are people who do not believe in any kind of freedom of the will that will get uptight at those who believe there is.  Does that mean by your own words that you should now think about that? :Chinscratch:

I do not ever get upset at anyone who does not align with my observations... It is in misbehavioral name calling or personal attack that irritation will arise in anyone... regardless of the TRUTH of the discussion...

It is not up to me to reveal anything to anyone... it is my duty to present that which I believe, and then leave it in God's hands to either WORK to change my observation's incorrect position, or to use that which I have presented to, in part move another into the light...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 12, 2008, 05:52:50 PMThese kinds of reactions in human beings happen all the time in any situation you can muster up.

Paul... I don't see our discussions as personal... I see them as GOD working in all of us, sanding the edges, molding the framework of our understanding...  It is as I just said, when some shall emotionally fire the arrows of hurt toward another because their beloved belief has been assaulted, ...often results in the breakdowns we have with one another at times...

The Lord said that some would LOVE the DARKNESS more than the LIGHT... and because that DARKNESS is BELOVED, its LOVERS shall come to its aid in defense of it... often emotionally...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 12, 2008, 05:52:50 PMI do not say this to offend, only to propose a view for the readers to contemplate.

In the same spirit of inoffense, have I said, what I just did...  :cloud9: