Hey all my UR friends,
Hebrews 6:4-6 states, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
According to this interpretation, the phrase "once enlightened" (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God's sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God's redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.
This interpretation also sees the phrase "tasted the heavenly gift" (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus' "tasting" death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus' parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.
Finally, this interpretation sees the "falling away" (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.
resource: got questions.org
:blahgreen:
These people at gotquestions.org are as deluded as you are.
Perish the thought of speaking to you about manners but, if you please, it's polite to reference what Bible translation you're using.
everyone,
Notice God says "it is impossible" for those who were once enlightened to renew them unto repentance.
NASB.
everyone,
Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26: Matthew 12:32 make it perfectly clear why there are NO scriptures in the bible that say God grants repentance and forgiveness of sins after people die an unbeliever.
Yes, it is impossible — for it can not happen
Once you know Him — Jesus will not let you go.
...and you look it up, don't ask me.
More could be said about this in the broader context, particularly in light of the subject in verses 1-3, but here is the same passage in a literal translation from the Greek:
Heb 6:4 "For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
Heb 6:5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
Heb 6:6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy."
Just the highlighted portions alone destroy the interpretation given by gotquestions and yourself.
Besides which, not being able to be renewed again to repentance in and of itself does not = not being able to be saved.
Quote from: lee100 on August 21, 2009, 03:48:10 AM
everyone,
Notice God says "it is impossible" for those who were once enlightened to renew them unto repentance.
NASB.
Dear lee100,
I'm curious how you sleep well at night knowing you are teaching people that there are plain contradictions in the Bible.
God plainly declares that He will have all humans to be saved for Christ ransomed all (1 Timothy 2:4-6 and that God IS the Saviour of all mankind, especially (not exclusively) them that believe. THESE THINGS COMMAND AND TEACH" (1 Tim.4:10,11).
Yet you want us to be deceived like you and believe there are rank contradictions in the Bible.
Obviously Hebrews 6:4-6 is right and 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11 is right. Hebrews 6:4-6 cannot be correct to the exclusion of 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11. And 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11 cannot be true to the exclusion of Hebrews 6:4-6 either.
So how can we understand both so that both are correct?
Let me know if you want it explained to you.
Tony
Taken from an article:
IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."--Heb vi:4-6.
Any reader of the New Testament ought to see that this language is not to be understood as literal, when he remembers that Peter himself "fell away," and was "renewed again unto repentance." What Paul says is that it is difficult, not impossible, to renew those who have once tasted the heavenly gift.
The word here has the same force as in Matt. xix:26, where it is said to be impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In reply to the apostles' question, "who, then, can be saved?" Jesus said: "With men it is impossible, but with God everything is possible;" or, more exactly, "With men it is hard, but everything is easy with God."
Calmet says: "St. Paul by no means intended to exclude the baptism of tears and repentance, for the expiation of those sins which we commit after regeneration."
Rosenmuller, a celebrated German theologian, says: "Adunaton, in this place, does not mean absolutly impossible, but rather a thing so difficult that it may be nearly impossible; thus we are accustomed to say of very many things in common conversation."
Dr. Macknight observes: "The apostle does not mean that it is impossible for God to renew a second time, by repentance, an apsostate; but that it is impossible for the ministers of Christ to convert a second time, to the faith of the Gospel, one who, after being made acquainted with all the proofs by which God has thought fit to establish Christ's mission, shall allow himself to think him an impostor, and renounce the gospel. The apostle, knowing this, was anxious to give the Hebrews just views of the ancient oracles, in the hope that it would prevent them from apostatizing.
And to further the point:
Matthew 19:26 (Young's Literal Translation)
26And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'
Whatever Paul was talking about it certainly wasn't impossible, less he be talking about the believers own ability to bring back an apostate. You do know there are actually apostates in the real world that have come back to Christ don't you?
My thoughts:
The most interesting verse in Hebrews 6 comes right before verse 4, and right after Paul says that we should move on from the principles of the faith:
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
We will only move on from the principles of the faith IF God permit, for it is impossible to renew unto repentance them who fall away from the faith. The reason it is impossible is because God does not permit them who crucify the Son afresh to move on from the principles. God is the reason that Paul says it is impossible.
But does God consider it impossible for HIM to lead them again into repentance. Here is what Jesus had to say about that.
Matthew 19:24-26 (King James Version)
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God ALL things are possible.
Jesus says (and this is regarding the salvation of man) that with God all things are possible. Paul says it is impossible when man falls away. Do the scriptures contradict? Of course not. The scriptures agree.
Since God is the reason for it being impossible to renew man to repentance who falls away (because we move on if He permits), and with him ALL things are possible, we can see that Paul is not saying that ANYTHING is impossible for God to do, even if He makes it impossible for man to do. Paul is talking about man's ability to move on from the faith and underlining how much we depend on Grace to do that.
Quote from: Tim B on August 21, 2009, 04:23:07 AM
Taken from an article:
IMPOSSIBLE TO RENEW THEM
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."--Heb vi:4-6.
Any reader of the New Testament ought to see that this language is not to be understood as literal, when he remembers that Peter himself "fell away," and was "renewed again unto repentance." What Paul says is that it is difficult, not impossible, to renew those who have once tasted the heavenly gift.
The word here has the same force as in Matt. xix:26, where it is said to be impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In reply to the apostles' question, "who, then, can be saved?" Jesus said: "With men it is impossible, but with God everything is possible;" or, more exactly, "With men it is hard, but everything is easy with God."
Calmet says: "St. Paul by no means intended to exclude the baptism of tears and repentance, for the expiation of those sins which we commit after regeneration."
Rosenmuller, a celebrated German theologian, says: "Adunaton, in this place, does not mean absolutly impossible, but rather a thing so difficult that it may be nearly impossible; thus we are accustomed to say of very many things in common conversation."
Dr. Macknight observes: "The apostle does not mean that it is impossible for God to renew a second time, by repentance, an apsostate; but that it is impossible for the ministers of Christ to convert a second time, to the faith of the Gospel, one who, after being made acquainted with all the proofs by which God has thought fit to establish Christ's mission, shall allow himself to think him an impostor, and renounce the gospel. The apostle, knowing this, was anxious to give the Hebrews just views of the ancient oracles, in the hope that it would prevent them from apostatizing.
Good word. I was thinking of when Jesus said, "with God all things are possible" as I was reading the posts.
I think Paul is also saying that once you have gotten to the point of being a "partaker of the holy Spirit", you have come to the point of Christ's mind in you, so through the nature of the Spirit you are dying to your flesh, making it impossible for you to be falling bak into your old self.
Weymouth:
Galatians;
2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me; and the life which I now live in the body I live through faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up to death on my behalf.
Lee,
Hebrews is refering to the Kingdom of God, not salvation as you understand.
For example Jesus said in Luke 4:43... But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."
and continued this very preaching but added His twelve.... Luk 9:1 And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases. And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing.
Yes, for years they healed the sick, fed the poor and preached the Gospel of the kingdom...Yet the twelve were missing some vital information... Luke 18:31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. Luk 18:32 "For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, 33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again." 34 But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.
John 20:9 For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.
You see Lee, Jesus was sent to preach the kingdom of God, and so he did with His twelve. All the while being slient about dying on the cross for the sins of the world, as noted by Luke 18:31-34.
Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho:
Trypho : "Do you really admit that this place Jerusalem shall be rebuilt? And do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the Patriarchs...?"
Justin: "I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith think otherwise. Moreover I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical and foolish. . . . I choose to follow not men or men's teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him. For if you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection . . . who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians . . . But I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare. . . . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The Day of the Lord,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place."
Lee, any one who continues to sin, will miss out on the Kingdom reign, yet shall be resurrected in the end...
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
You are confusing the salvation of all, with the Kingdom reign of His Christ.
Peace brother,
Paul
Quote from: lee100 on August 21, 2009, 03:52:30 AM
everyone,
Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26: Matthew 12:32 make it perfectly clear why there are NO scriptures in the bible that say God grants repentance and forgiveness of sins after people die an unbeliever.
For a complete interpretation read: Gensis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21
WW, you're taking that passage out of context.
People, This is only My thinking.
New Haven and New Earth. i.e. All things, earth/all things made from atoms of God's making, man, plant, rock, air, space, and all other things you can list.
First thing is not to think of Revelation as the last book in the bible, because Cor, goes much further into the future than any book of Revelation.
If you want a comprehensive study in that book, look up J.P. Eby at Sigler Ministries.
Now as to the here and now/ after life.
The promise was that The Anointing would DO certain things, and He Has Done Those Things...
2009 years ago the father raised His Son out of death, and Finished all Death, since then all things have been in life, all made alive in Christ. There is no more sin, the only sin is the sin that you make of your own Law Making and the following of those Laws and the braking of those self-made laws. We are LIVING IN CHRIST'S THOUSAND YEAR REIGNS NOW. It started when death was destroyed 2009 years ago.
Revelation of God ( Matt. 16:18 "upon") is the New System of things, When all things come to an understanding that a higher power controls things, "They" start there own quest to understand.
God is like this to me in the physical things, in all things there are atoms, in all things there are 2 things, sold and space, but there is an unseen third thing, energy. This energy is in everything. In every corner of the known universe and beyond. This energy is connected like a thought process in a brain. His Brain.
There is a process going on that will bring a close to the reign of Jesus "His" Christ, When all will be IN all. When all things are dragged to the understanding that God IS and God IS Love. Then We will be Home in Him and what goes on after All is, together again is HIS concern. After life? there can never be an afterlife because the use of the word says that life has to end, and life IN God never ends. What God does with His life/us, is His design.
Summery, All sin is ended at the cross, only self-reinforced-delusions i.e. Law/sin/death.
Everyone will come to love God somehow-somewhere in "time", When time ends, there will only be God/us.
The new heavens and earth is NOW. Since life was given to all things when His Son Did It For Us whether or not we want to except that death was destroyed so long ago.
Lee Damboise II