I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
everyone but God
That mean Jesus now can give all never have to die in the future or judgment day, not God, because God can't die and also we can't judge God
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
Hi Sven,
I can't find "but God" in any original text. The Greek has "tasted death for the sake of every (or "all" PANTOC)."
In Hebrews 2:8 it talks about all being subject to Him:
Heb 2:8 All dost Thou subject underneath his feet.For in the subjection of all to him, He leaves nothing unsubject to him. Yet now we are not as yet seeing all subject to him." Of course, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 Paul writes about all being subject to Christ except God:
1Co 15:27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."
(Young's Literal Translation) for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
The "but" of your question does indeed mean "except."
QuoteThe "but" of your question does indeed mean "except."
this was more a language question; but my intention was that this reading as in the Aramaic version supports universalism very strong,
for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God, leaves absolutely noone out, also not the evil spirits - though I must admit I don't care so much what happens with them. I've read the reading as in the Aramaic version was quoted by Origen. Do you get what I mean?
Sven,
Personally I'm not so convinced it includes the spirit.
Certainly it means all human. But also spirits? Animals?
I think this should be read as those of the 'same type' as Jesus.
If you have a party and you say to your wife give everybody a drink then most likely your wife doesn't pour drinks for the cat and dogs you have.
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 05:32:39 PM
QuoteThe "but" of your question does indeed mean "except."
this was more a language question; but my intention was that this reading as in the Aramaic version supports universalism very strong, for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God, leaves absolutely noone out, also not the evil spirits - though I must admit I don't care so much what happens with them. I've read the reading as in the Aramaic version was quoted by Origen. Do you get what I mean?
"but" in "every one but God, means "except."
Colossians 1:20 shows God reconciling all in the heavens and all on the earth, making peace through the blood of Christ's cross.
I believe that one must be at enmity to God in order to be reconciled to God. I believe this includes humans as well as spirit beings.
In the future there can be no enmity whatsoever in the entire universe.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1 Corinthians 15:27 -
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
The King James Version
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
Yeah, that's what Priscilla said when she wrote that. 2nd century introduced the varient reading that's more common today in translations.
Sven,
The Aramaic Western Pecrapta I have is different, in that it literally says:
"But we see that he is Jesus, he who was a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of his death; and glory and honor are placed on his head for by his grace God himself tasted death in the place of every person."
The eastern pecrapta agrees with the greek, which I believe was a mistranslation of the aramaic.
Ron
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
I think it is words added based on doctrine. I don't like it when it's done, but in this case I agree with the added words.
Jn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jesus did not die for God at all.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 12:45:51 AM
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
I think it is words added based on doctrine. I don't like it when it's done, but in this case I agree with the added words.
Jn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jesus did not die for God at all.
Well, Jesus did die for us but it also for God because of "glory"
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
I believe that all evil spirits will be utterly destroyed (annihilated). They will cease completely to exist. I don't believe an evil spirit exists outside of man.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 03:08:47 PM
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
I believe that all evil spirits will be utterly destroyed (annihilated). They will cease completely to exist. I don't believe an evil spirit exists outside of man.
Paul
In the account of the man in the tombs why didn't Legion ask if they were going to be destroyed before their time?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 03:08:47 PM
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
I believe that all evil spirits will be utterly destroyed (annihilated). They will cease completely to exist. I don't believe an evil spirit exists outside of man.
Paul
In the account of the man in the tombs why didn't Legion ask if they were going to be destroyed before their time?
I don't know, YET. I believe that Jesus provided us a spiritual message by means of earthly explanations. Therefore, for example when Jesus says we are to eat His flesh, I don't believe it literally means that we should find His body and eat of His literal flesh. Likewise, I see these accounts of demons and such. I would need to know more to understand the actual spiritual interpretation of those particular verses and don't believe they should be understood in the earthly perspective.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 03:08:47 PM
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
I believe that all evil spirits will be utterly destroyed (annihilated). They will cease completely to exist. I don't believe an evil spirit exists outside of man.
Paul
In the account of the man in the tombs why didn't Legion ask if they were going to be destroyed before their time?
I don't know, YET. I believe that Jesus provided us a spiritual message by means of earthly explanations. Therefore, for example when Jesus says we are to eat His flesh, I don't believe it literally means that we should find His body and eat of His literal flesh. Likewise, I see these accounts of demons and such. I would need to know more to understand the actual spiritual interpretation of those particular verses and don't believe they should be understood in the earthly perspective.
Paul
Yes of course, that means your belief of what happens to demons is spiritual and not an earthy perspective?
So Torment could mean spiritual destruction of their evil leaving spiritual purity?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 05:04:16 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 03:08:47 PM
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
I believe that all evil spirits will be utterly destroyed (annihilated). They will cease completely to exist. I don't believe an evil spirit exists outside of man.
Paul
In the account of the man in the tombs why didn't Legion ask if they were going to be destroyed before their time?
I don't know, YET. I believe that Jesus provided us a spiritual message by means of earthly explanations. Therefore, for example when Jesus says we are to eat His flesh, I don't believe it literally means that we should find His body and eat of His literal flesh. Likewise, I see these accounts of demons and such. I would need to know more to understand the actual spiritual interpretation of those particular verses and don't believe they should be understood in the earthly perspective.
Paul
Yes of course, that means your belief of what happens to demons is spiritual and not an earthy perspective?
So Torment could mean spiritual destruction of their evil leaving spiritual purity?
Yes, I believe the evil beliefs we have are demons but they are not creatures that exists and then take us over like the movies often portray. I believe these evil demons are destroyed forever (they are like the dross of a metal) and when the metal is purified what is left is the preciousness of the metal whichis pure.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 06:41:24 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 05:04:16 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 03:08:47 PM
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
I believe that all evil spirits will be utterly destroyed (annihilated). They will cease completely to exist. I don't believe an evil spirit exists outside of man.
Paul
In the account of the man in the tombs why didn't Legion ask if they were going to be destroyed before their time?
I don't know, YET. I believe that Jesus provided us a spiritual message by means of earthly explanations. Therefore, for example when Jesus says we are to eat His flesh, I don't believe it literally means that we should find His body and eat of His literal flesh. Likewise, I see these accounts of demons and such. I would need to know more to understand the actual spiritual interpretation of those particular verses and don't believe they should be understood in the earthly perspective.
Paul
Yes of course, that means your belief of what happens to demons is spiritual and not an earthy perspective?
So Torment could mean spiritual destruction of their evil leaving spiritual purity?
Yes, I believe the evil beliefs we have are demons but they are not creatures that exists and then take us over like the movies often portray. I believe these evil demons are destroyed forever (they are like the dross of a metal) and when the metal is purified what is left is the preciousness of the metal whichis pure.
Paul
A creature can exist, but not be a creature as in a movie.
So do you believe a demon is any kind of creature at all, such as a spiritual creature that of course would not be seen like any movie has at all. Or are they only our thoughts?
If the latter is true, why would a thought be concerned about being tormented before it's time.
We can also look at this in a slight scientific manner. There is more going on in purifying metal than meets the eye. The impurities of metal are not actually destroyed, they are literally converted to another form. Certainly the metaphor is there regaurdless, but I can't help but think that nothing that exists can actually be destroyed to true non existance.
Why would a thought be concerned about being tormented before it's time?
I would have to question the man, himself, as it was he that spoke.
:cloud9: I know I've shared on this before, but demons are real, and they do possess people. When He opens your eyes to see one, and you are in the presence of one, and doing spiritual battle against one, it is an experience that forever changes how you perceive life to be. Blessings....
Quote from: peacemaker on April 09, 2009, 08:49:45 AM
Why would a thought be concerned about being tormented before it's time?
I would have to question the man, himself, as it was he that spoke.
Sure, you'd have to question the vessel, but that doesn't seem to answer my question.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 06:56:27 AM
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 06:41:24 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 05:04:16 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 04:44:24 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 08, 2009, 03:34:40 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 08, 2009, 03:08:47 PM
Quote from: sven on April 07, 2009, 01:54:58 PM
I came across this verse recently, there is an alternative reading which is very interesting:
Hebrews 2:9 Lamsa Translation from Aramaic
We see that he is Jesus who humbled himself to be a little lower than the angels, through his suffering and his death, but now he is crowned with glory and honor; for he tasted death for the sake of every one but God.
does but here mean except? so if this is the original reading it says Jesus suffered for EVERY beeing except God (which would include also evil spirits).
I believe that all evil spirits will be utterly destroyed (annihilated). They will cease completely to exist. I don't believe an evil spirit exists outside of man.
Paul
In the account of the man in the tombs why didn't Legion ask if they were going to be destroyed before their time?
I don't know, YET. I believe that Jesus provided us a spiritual message by means of earthly explanations. Therefore, for example when Jesus says we are to eat His flesh, I don't believe it literally means that we should find His body and eat of His literal flesh. Likewise, I see these accounts of demons and such. I would need to know more to understand the actual spiritual interpretation of those particular verses and don't believe they should be understood in the earthly perspective.
Paul
Yes of course, that means your belief of what happens to demons is spiritual and not an earthy perspective?
So Torment could mean spiritual destruction of their evil leaving spiritual purity?
Yes, I believe the evil beliefs we have are demons but they are not creatures that exists and then take us over like the movies often portray. I believe these evil demons are destroyed forever (they are like the dross of a metal) and when the metal is purified what is left is the preciousness of the metal whichis pure.
Paul
A creature can exist, but not be a creature as in a movie.
So do you believe a demon is any kind of creature at all, such as a spiritual creature that of course would not be seen like any movie has at all. Or are they only our thoughts?
If the latter is true, why would a thought be concerned about being tormented before it's time.
We can also look at this in a slight scientific manner. There is more going on in purifying metal than meets the eye. The impurities of metal are not actually destroyed, they are literally converted to another form. Certainly the metaphor is there regaurdless, but I can't help but think that nothing that exists can actually be destroyed to true non existance.
I believe that demons are the elements of disobedience in us. So it isn't just the thought but also the exhibition of it. As for why they would be concerned about being tormented before the time; I think that is a type of earthly message explaining spiritual understanding that I don't fully understand yet.
As for your scientific understanding explanation, you said that you don't believe that nothing that exists can actually be destroyed to true non existance; so let me ask you then - do you believe that evil (which exists) will continue to exists forevermore?
Paul
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 04:16:23 PM
As for your scientific understanding explanation, you said that you don't believe that nothing that exists can actually be destroyed to true non existance; so let me ask you then - do you believe that evil (which exists) will continue to exists forevermore?
Paul
What I am saying is that you can burn a log and the log is destroyed but the molecules and atoms that made up the log are not rewndered non existant, they become a different form.
That is the spiritual message.
a thought from a demon wants to imitate God.
Just as God brings things into existance through merely
taking thought on the 'matter' so to does a demonic
spirit.However an evil spirit can not create but possesses
the ability to corrupt that which is created[if it be corruptible]
their torment comes when they realize it is an impossible
thought. and that the battle is lost.
what is this 'impossible' thought? that they shall suceed
in causing God to cut off man from receiving eternal life.
NOTHING will seperate us from the love of God
ALL things are possible with God.
From the beginning they have proceeded to kill man,
defile and corrupt and destroy [the image of God]
man made in the image of God,represents their very motive..
to defile and destroy the image of God...so they hate
God,they hate goodness and all the qualities God is.
But, it is an impossible thought that they accomplish this
they hate the very sight of man,made in the image of God..
so in a sense..all mankind have suffered for righteousness sake
that being the righteousness of God, by being the object
of such hatred that is truly directed against God's very being.
Placing evil motive in man,evil thoughts and corrupting the
very vessel made in the image of God and to contain His spirit
is a property of this evil essence,but not the totality of it's
substance.
Now,as to the 'substance' of spirit,of God or evil..I can not
explain it.God can. Whatever it is,God knows..but it is a
supernatural power that can manifiest in the natural.
Also it's revealing to us is tied into the mystery of godliness
and the mystery of godlessness. We may also get insight
from the fruits displayed by the spirit. Truth/lie,life/death
love/hate,incorruption/corruption, all things possible/impossible.
we know,we have been told that we shall be 'changed'
in a twinkling of an eye.Secrets of Enoch gives some insight
in chapter 29,and God desribes this change He works in
making us like the angels, and how He imaged by the 'gleam'
of His eye[twinkling]..and how our wonderful nature is made.
Fire,water and rock...
we have been told that, that which IS corruptible must put on
incorruption. He shall do this by the 'gleam' of His eye
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 04:22:30 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 04:16:23 PM
As for your scientific understanding explanation, you said that you don't believe that nothing that exists can actually be destroyed to true non existance; so let me ask you then - do you believe that evil (which exists) will continue to exists forevermore?
Paul
What I am saying is that you can burn a log and the log is destroyed but the molecules and atoms that made up the log are not rewndered non existant, they become a different form.
That is the spiritual message.
My references to the dross was that nature that produces sin. I believe it shall be destroyed.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 05:54:58 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 09, 2009, 04:22:30 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 04:16:23 PM
As for your scientific understanding explanation, you said that you don't believe that nothing that exists can actually be destroyed to true non existance; so let me ask you then - do you believe that evil (which exists) will continue to exists forevermore?
Paul
What I am saying is that you can burn a log and the log is destroyed but the molecules and atoms that made up the log are not rewndered non existant, they become a different form.
That is the spiritual message.
My references to the dross was that nature that produces sin. I believe it shall be destroyed.
Paul
And I not necessarily challenging that. I am looking deeper into the account of legion and trying to descern the nature of torment meaning totally destroyed rather than a transformation.
As my analogy depicts. Lets say the Log is evil, if you burn the log what you perceive the log to be or look like goes away, so we can say the log was destroyed, yet, the burning of a log was actually a conversion of energy.
So the bible depiction of the reconciliation of all things seems to put a different light on what the bible depicts as destruction.
If legion was just thoughts, then certainly thats plausible since the bible has many sorts of figurative pictures to tell us something beyond the literal picture.
Of course in movies we will have a visual representation of a demon being pulled out of a human body. In our own lives we do retain thoughts that figurativeltly can almost seem like the very depiction of movies as we see we much change and be different.
But there is much more going on with legion. Why would a thought plead with Jesus not to be tormented and request where to be put and we see Jesus honoring that request.
What is the spiritual nature there we should see?
Hi brothers,
It was the torment of being thrown into the absyss.
It is a never-ending fall...a bottomless pit...not even an animal
such as a swine to put his evil thoughts in or possess..
remember these 'spiits' have possessed man's bodies.
This signifys no place in the creation ..not even animals
no purpose, no function anymore[to
tempt/accuse/destroy/serve as adversary]
:cloud9: There's another way to look at it. Legion = 2000, the length of time of 2 days, the 2 days He said He would do cures and CAST OUT DEVILS, ie. the sum total of the darkness of men's hearts over those 2 days or 2000 years. He did this at the six day mark, meaning the coming fullness was a factor.
He sent them into the swine; a swine will eat anything, corn or husk, it has no discernment, and it does not chew the cud (meditate on the Word). It is as the man of the outer court, the natural man. He said (to the inner court priesthood), I would that you be cold (outer court) or hot (Holy of holies), but if you are lukewarm (staying in inner court instead of pressing in beyond the veil = firstfruits), I will spew you out of My mouth.
This where they are cast out into outer darkness (outer court where no candlestick was) from the inner court priesthood, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when they see what they could have had, ie. saviors will arise on Mt. Zion.
Kinda long, but all of this then, also ties in with the queen of Sheba and the well of Beer-Sheba, as well as the well of the Samaritan woman. Blessings...
He shows the same TRUTHS over and over again,doesn't He
Card? :HeartThrob:
and on the third day I shall be perfected.
Sheila
:cloud9: Yes, He does; over and over and over. You think He was worried we wouldn't "get it" in just one place? I don't know about you, but my children rarely, if ever, did anything I told them only one time. :winkgrin: Blessings....
I think it must be some kind of natural law of parents and
children :mshock:
that children must be INCULCATED...
and that parents must impress on their minds with frequent
repetitons or admonitions
:cloud9: What did you say? :laughing7:
Quote from: Cardinal on April 10, 2009, 03:59:50 AM
:cloud9: What did you say? :laughing7:
Oh man, Sheila's speaking greek again :happygrin:.
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
I know it!
it was a repeat of what was said,repetition X2 :icon_jokercolor: :icon_jokercolor:
inculcate = to impress upon the mind with frequent
repetitions and admonition.
I basically said the same thing as we already said in the
above posts,in two different ways!!!!ROFL!! :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:
you made my day, I needed a good laugh
Bless you :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: I know......I said that, as in; I needed the repetition.....so say it again.....get it? :laughing7: :winkgrin:
Quote from: sheila on April 10, 2009, 04:21:08 AM
inculcate = to impress upon the mind with frequent
repetitions and admonition.
I basically said the same thing as we already said
Oh yeah,
I knew that, didn't you Card? :Yeahright:
wait just a minute here!
You mean you guys got me,and I didn't get you !! :mblush:
:HeartThrob:
:cloud9: I was making a joke, by asking her what she said, like a child who never listens and needs admonitions/repetitions to get them to do anything. :laughing7:
No way, Sheila! I had no idea what that 'U' word meant, had very little idea what was going on (not completely unheard of for me)...I was just kidding too...I was lost, and just having fun, since Card was kidding you about it, I jumped on. :angel5:
/
Speaking of repetition, did you know the word "Deutronomy"
means just that: repetition.
When they had gone round that mountain long enough,
it was so said in the first of the book.........ha
Thanks Carlene!
For that tasty 'tidbit"..
:HeartThrob: