Over the years, Christians have debated whether one goes immediately to be with Jesus at death or if their is a wait until "the last trump" when saints are resurrected from their graves. I've gone back and forth on this for years because both sides have supporting scripture. I read verses this morning and I think it cleared it up for me. I'm not saying I'm definitely right but it is what I currently believe. Here are the verses. Youngs literal translation Heb 12:22-23 (emphasis mine)
"22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,(angels)
23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,"
These that have died - they come to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where there are a whole lot of angels.
To those that are the firstborn (firstfruits?) of the heavenly enrolled (I believe that's us that believe in this life before death)
to God and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect
When Paul said no man has ascended except Jesus who descended, and yet said If I die I will be with Christ implied immediacy)
IMO, the answer to this dichotomy, is that our spirit goes to heaven at death, "The spirit returns to God where it came from"
our spirit is made perfect and at the last trump our bodies will be resurrected and our spirits will then be re-united with our bodies. This would explain Saul seeing Samuel after death, Moses and Elijah at the mount of transfiguration, Elijah and Elisha ALL apparently in "heaven" yet not actually having "ascended" in bodily form.
Thoughts? Mine change on minor doctrinal things like this. (I don't know it can even be called a minor doctrine)
Yep. :thumbsup:
It is our soul he is saving.
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5
Thank you Molly,
I guess I was too influenced by verses that said "The dead know nothing, neither do they have any part in this world"
Yet Saul called up Samuel so I wasn't sure. :thumbsup:
Remember Jesus said, Our friend Lazarus is asleep. Let's go wake him up.
But we will be fully clothed, in the company of Christ, with the house that is prepared for us in heaven.
20 My deep desire and hope is that I shall never fail in my duty, but that at all times, and especially right now, I shall be full of courage, so that with my whole being I shall bring honor to Christ, whether I live or die. 21 For what is life? To me, it is Christ. Death, then, will bring more. 22 But if by continuing to live I can do more worthwhile work, then I am not sure which I should choose. 23 I am pulled in two directions. I want very much to leave this life and be with Christ, which is a far better thing; 24 but for your sake it is much more important that I remain alive.
--Phil 1
if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. Jn 14:3
But it doesn't say where the spirit of Lazarus was during that 4 days and there is no record of Lazarus saying anything about what happened. - That's why I was tending to go with the dead no nothing.
Granted, Jesus did not go straight to the Father at death but Jesus is always the exception.
Is it possible the Father kept the spirit of Lazarus with his body knowing what would be happening?
A man named Lazarus, who lived in Bethany, became sick. Bethany was the town where Mary and her sister Martha lived. (2 This Mary was the one who poured the perfume on the Lord's feet and wiped them with her hair; it was her brother Lazarus who was sick.) 3 The sisters sent Jesus a message: "Lord, your dear friend is sick."
4 When Jesus heard it, he said, "The final result of this sickness will not be the death of Lazarus; this has happened in order to bring glory to God, and it will be the means by which the Son of God will receive glory."
5 Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 Yet when he received the news that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was for two more days. 7 Then he said to the disciples, "Let us go back to Judea."
8 "Teacher," the disciples answered, "just a short time ago the people there wanted to stone you; and are you planning to go back?"
9 Jesus said, "A day has twelve hours, doesn't it? So those who walk in broad daylight do not stumble, for they see the light of this world. 10 But if they walk during the night they stumble, because they have no light." 11 Jesus said this and then added, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I will go and wake him up."
12 The disciples answered, "If he is asleep, Lord, he will get well."
13 Jesus meant that Lazarus had died, but they thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So Jesus told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15 but for your sake I am glad that I was not with him, so that you will believe. Let us go to him."
16 Thomas (called the Twin) said to his fellow disciples, "Let us all go along with the Teacher, so that we may die with him!"
17 When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had been buried four days before. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Judeans had come to see Martha and Mary to comfort them about their brother's death.
20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, "If you had been here, Lord, my brother would not have died! 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask him for."
23 "Your brother will rise to life," Jesus told her.
24 "I know," she replied, "that he will rise to life on the last day."
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me will live, even though they die; 26 and those who live and believe in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
--John 11
Ah... so since Lazarus didn't actually die "The final result of this sickness will not be the death of Lazarus" then wondering about where he was or went or did was irrelevant since Lazarus was not dead even though in verse 13+14 it says,
"Jesus meant that Lazarus had died, but they thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So Jesus told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead"
So, then the God of Moses, Isaac and Jacob, is the God of the living. So our dead flesh is awaiting the resurection while our continuing to live spirit is with God... sounds good to me.
He mentions two conditions:
1) those who die, believe in me, and live
2) those who live and believe in me and never die
If there's a third choice, he's not mentioning it here.
Probably because we either live or die. :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on November 18, 2012, 11:34:03 PM
He mentions two conditions:
1) those who die, believe in me, and live
2) those who live and believe in me and never die
If there's a third choice, he's not mentioning it here.
Wow, I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately, and JUST read these verses the other day. It's so clear cut here, I can't believe it didn't strike me! This is great, thank you!
Would someone please explain (1Thess:4:14-17) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Loard in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
CHB
IMO,
Dead in Jesus will be resurrected,
they(dead in Jesus) will be resurrected just
prior to those (in Jesus)still alive on the earth.
We are going to meet Jesus in the clouds as he makes his descent to earth.
I know this bucks the traditional rapture scenario
but I don't think Jesus is going to come down, get those asleep in him
and those still alive in him, take them back up into heaven,
wait either 3 1/2 years or 7 years depending on the rapturist,
then come down again for a second final trumpet which is different than the first Final trumpet. :laughing7:
Ded,
I agree with what you said but I was referring to whether we go on to heaven when we die? This verse seems to contridict this idea.
CHB
The answer is obviously yes and no :laughing7:
WE (our bodies) go into the earth or whatever happened to our bodies or cremation.
Regardless, our bodies Eccl "know nothing" and go downward (Stay on or in the earth)as do all animals. -Eccl again.
Our spirits rise and return to God immediately though it isn't clear what we will be doing while waiting to be reunited with our bodies at the resurrection.
I know this might not be clear the way I wrote it but I know exactly what I mean. :declare:
[quote ]author=CHB link=topic=10823.msg144983#msg144983 date=1353353412]
Would someone please explain (1Thess:4:14-17) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP IN JESUS will God bring with him. [/quote]
He is not bringing "them which sleep" from heaven.......he is catching them up in the air just after he resurrects them from the earth at which time they get their new body...........secondly, a split few seconds or moments later those alive in Christ with earthly bodies get their change.....
QuoteFor this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.
"PREVENT" from the Greek means "precede". This conforms to what is stated immediately below that the dead rise "FIRST", as within an orderly sequence of events to follow.
QuoteFor the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:
QuoteThen we which are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Loard in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
As is ennunciated by use of
Then the sequence of transformed bodies rising from the earth begins, but none of these "in Christ" ever came from heaven. The "dead in Christ" must rise from the Earth, that can only mean they are resurrected with earthly flesh & blood bodies so that for a split second in time they will be exactly as their brethren still alive in their earthly bodies. Then after Christ has accounted for the total of all the earthly bodies of those once dead but now resurrected & those not requiring a resurrection, then the change of the bodies occur all at the same time.........that's the way I read it.
That could just as well be too.It does say He comes with his saints AND we will meet him in the air so maybe thats when body and spirit are reunited :dontknow: just opining.
As Jesus and the disciples were on the way back to Bethany, Jesus kept referring to Lazarus as "asleep." The disciples were understandably confused, and they asked Jesus for an answer - was he alive or dead? Jesus answered PLAINLY: "Lazarus is dead." He was dead.
Jeff said: "Ah... so since Lazarus didn't actually die "The final result of this sickness will not be the death of Lazarus"..." Let me rephrase it so: "The FINAL result of this sickness will not be the death of Lazarus." There it is - Lazarus was dead, but it would not be the final result, just as we all die, but it is not the end.
Do we go to Heaven when we die? No, we're dead, and the dead know nothing. That is what the resurrection is for, as the example of Lazarus illustrates. However, after we breathe our last, the very next thing we will be aware of is our life in newness, as if only the twinkling of an eye had passed. So, it doesn't really matter at all! Our life in the here-and-now is like the title page of some book which would fill the Library of Congress, and our death is like the turn of the page - no biggie...
That is how I understand it.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 22, 2012, 07:45:49 PM
Do we go to Heaven when we die? No, we're dead, and the dead know nothing. That is what the resurrection is for, as the example of Lazarus illustrates. However, after we breathe our last, the very next thing we will be aware of is our life in newness, as if only the twinkling of an eye had passed. So, it doesn't really matter at all! Our life in the here-and-now is like the title page of some book which would fill the Library of Congress, and our death is like the turn of the page - no biggie...
That is how I understand it.
Yep me too.....except after the title page the book will be a lot bigger than the Library of Congress...thre will be no end of the numbers of pages.
Quote from: Paul L on November 22, 2012, 10:27:42 PM
Yep me too.....except after the title page the book will be a lot bigger than the Library of Congress...thre will be no end of the numbers of pages.
He shoots! :banana: He scores!! :banana: :banana:
Quote from: CHB on November 19, 2012, 10:36:43 PM
Ded,
I agree with what you said but I was referring to whether we go on to heaven when we die? This verse seems to contridict this idea.
CHB
IMO, "Go to heaven" is a perspective that is traditional. It is not biblical. There is a veil. God separated the "waters above from the waters below". When Jesus returns it is written "the veil in the heavens will be rent and the sign of the son of man will appear in the heavens". In another place it is written, "the heavens will be rolled up like a scroll".
Remember Jacob,s ladder? Or when the "heavens opened and I saw visions of God?(Eze 1:1)"
After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
(Mat 3:16)
Remember when Peter preached, "this same Jesus whom you crucified God has raised from the dead and exalted Him to His right hand where He received the Holy SPirit and poured forth that which you now see and hear". Jesus is "in the bosom of the Father." "There will be no need for sun or stars because God is the light and the Lamb is the lamp in the midst thereof- Jesus will bring heaven with him because "in Him dwells the fulness of Deity in bodily form" and wherever He is God is in fulness overflowing- Jesus is the center of heaven and(IMO) the center of the universe :o)
And He *said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."
(Joh 1:51)
There's Jacobs ladder again. Wherever Jesus was/is the heavens were opened and angels were ascending and descending. The same is true(IMO) whenever the church is "in the spirit" and set "on the Lampstand". "Thy kingdom come Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven is the prayer and that is what will be at some point - heaven on earth. the removal of the veil that separates the waters above from the waters below.
and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
(Act 7:56)
I may be dead wrong, but as see it, there will be at least one veil removed at the end of this age, and heaven will come to earth with Jesus and the overcomers, and then, at the end of the millenial age another veil will be removed through the Great White Throne judgment and the lake of fire(perhaps involving another age or two, who knows, there are so few words on it :). At some point all veils(abolishment of rule, power and authority 1Cor 15) will be removed and God will be all in all- everyone will be filled up unto all the fulness of God.
IMO the dead in Christ preceding those who remain and are alive at His coming destroys the rapture doctrine, along with the last trumpet and "immediately after the tribulation of those days".
Paul was taken into the third heaven- how did he know it was the third heaven when he didn't even know if he was in the body or not in the body? Now thats a question that blows my mind HAHAHAH!
Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145093#msg145093 date=1353648508]
QuoteI may be dead wrong, but as see it, there will be at least one veil removed at the end of this age, and heaven will come to earth
.....but this doesn't occur until
after the millenium is concluded, this event
follows Rev 20:2. Follow the timeline of 1000 year period: Satan leads Gog & Magog in an attempted invasion of Israel, Israel's Messiah thwarts the invasion (Ezek 38-39), then the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven & is placed on the new Earth & will encompass an area of almost 1500 square mile. But notice that the New Jerusalem is not "heaven" itself, but that the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, Rev 21:2.
QuoteIMO the dead in Christ preceding those who remain and are alive at His coming destroys the rapture doctrine, along with the last trumpet and "immediately after the tribulation of those days".
I have been in a quandry for a long time about the pre-tribulation rapture, I have moments I believe it & moments I don't, depends on what I'm reading. The biggest problem I have for
not believing in the rapture is the book of Revelation itself, it is entirely about the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy & the restoration of Israel.
The Body of Christ is nowhere present within the pages of Revelation simply because it is a book about the restoration of Israel, by contrast the Body of Christ is composed primarily of non-Israelites, this being the case, what's the point of having the Body of Christ present on the Earth if we are not "appointed unto wrath"? I presume the apostle Paul is referring to the "tribulation" as being that time of "wrath" to which Christ's body is not to be subjected. If this be the case, that explains why the term
Body of Christ never appears anywhere in Revelation, it isn't present on the earth.
Quote from: Paul L on November 23, 2012, 03:29:43 PM
Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145093#msg145093 date=1353648508]
QuoteI may be dead wrong, but as see it, there will be at least one veil removed at the end of this age, and heaven will come to earth
.....but this doesn't occur until after the millenium is concluded, this event follows Rev 20:2. Follow the timeline of 1000 year period: Satan leads Gog & Magog in an attempted invasion of Israel, Israel's Messiah thwarts the invasion (Ezek 38-39), then the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven & is placed on the new Earth & will encompass an area of almost 1500 square mile. But notice that the New Jerusalem is not "heaven" itself, but that the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, Rev 21:2.
QuoteIMO the dead in Christ preceding those who remain and are alive at His coming destroys the rapture doctrine, along with the last trumpet and "immediately after the tribulation of those days".
I have been in a quandry for a long time about the pre-tribulation rapture, I have moments I believe it & moments I don't, depends on what I'm reading. The biggest problem I have for not believing in the rapture is the book of Revelation itself, it is entirely about the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy & the restoration of Israel.
The Body of Christ is nowhere present within the pages of Revelation simply because it is a book about the restoration of Israel, by contrast the Body of Christ is composed primarily of non-Israelites, this being the case, what's the point of having the Body of Christ present on the Earth if we are not "appointed unto wrath"? I presume the apostle Paul is referring to the "tribulation" as being that time of "wrath" to which Christ's body is not to be subjected. If this be the case, that explains why the term Body of Christ never appears anywhere in Revelation, it isn't present on the earth.
Well, we all have many and varied opinions about the book of Revelations. When it was given, the messenger said, "Keep the words of this prophecy for the time is at hand". In my opinion the Apocalypse of John is primarily for the unfolding of mysteries about the Body of Christ, in ways that have been contemporary since it was given.
As to the rapture, it is a good discussion, maybe we should start a thread on it if the discussion can be had, not as a debate so much as presentations of opinions and individual points of view.
".....but this doesn't occur until after the millenium is concluded, this event follows Rev 20:2. Follow the timeline of 1000 year period: Satan leads Gog & Magog in an attempted invasion of Israel, Israel's Messiah thwarts the invasion (Ezek 38-39), then the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven & is placed on the new Earth & will encompass an area of almost 1500 square mile. But notice that the New Jerusalem is not "heaven" itself, but that the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven, Rev 21:2."- Paul L
IMO, the new Jerusalem is already "descending out of heaven"(DAWN, being revealed among men)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
The full revelation of it(NOON) will not, IMO, be a big building. It is being built now, of living stones, it has foundations in the heavens, built upon the foundations of the 12 apostles(their teaching and revelation), etc.
I also don't believe there will be a giant woman standing on the moon(rev 12), or a giant angel standing on the land and sea, clothed in clouds with a rainbow on his head and a little book in his hand(rev 10). These are pictures, IMO of the Bride and the ONE NEW MAN, who already are.
I do however believe that these aspects of the Body of Christ will be fully revealed before the conclusion of these last days...."early rain/ latter rain", etc.
Jesus said, "I am the bread that descends from heaven".....
Since angels ascended and descended upon Jesus when He was on earth BEFORE HE was glorified, it is safe to assume that since "evry eye will see Him" when he appears and" the veil of the heavens will be rolled back like a scroll", "the temple in heaven will be opened" and "the word of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea".... that a significant measure of heaven on earth will be realized even before Gog Magog.
There have been a number of veils removed already IMO, and I agree the final unveiling will occur, and the end of the millenial age, perhaps- but definitely after the lake of fire- death is a veil, and it will be the last to fall to Christ...... maybe
Because all rule power and authority are veils as well, and after death is destroyed Jesus will return the kingdom to the Father for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.......
You see, there are so many brief descriptions of vast subjects.
Perhaps we are all to confident in our opinions LOLOLOLOL
While I find these thrilling topics for discussion- I have very little interest in debating eschatology, since I don't believ anyone has the whole picture, and we share the part we have, and test all things among ourselves in love and humility- in order to learn more.
Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145101#msg145101 date=1353681055]
QuoteThere have been a number of veils removed already IMO, and I agree the final unveiling will occur, and the end of the millenial age, perhaps- but definitely after the lake of fire- death is a veil, and it will be the last to fall to Christ......
Definitely "veils" started being removed at the moment of Christ's death when the veil inside the temple was rent from in half, opening the doors for "all".
QuoteBecause all rule power and authority are veils as well, and after death is destroyed Jesus will return the kingdom to the Father for the abolishing of all rule power and authority.......
These are certainly impediments, but as to being a Biblical description of "veils" I'm not so sure about that.
QuoteYou see, there are so many brief descriptions of vast subjects.
...that's for sure, and that is why there is such a quagmire about the "catching up" of the Body of Christ. If the Body is not caught up pre-tribulation, how does it escape "wrath" & is never mentioned in Revelation?
QuoteWhile I find these thrilling topics for discussion- I have very little interest in debating eschatology, since I don't believ anyone has the whole picture, and we share the part we have, and test all things among ourselves in love and humility- in order to learn more.
I certainly agree wholeheartedly with this.....especially when I can see both sides of the issue when it comes to the "rapture", it just simply is not clear, therefore I don't have a rigid opinion about it.
Me too! I'm siding with the don't know for sure's on this one. :Peace2:
One thing I think I know - If the Bible isn't clear on a subject, either it doesn't matter what you know
or if you did know it wouldn't change anything in your spiritual walk. :2c:
It won't be unsealed until the end times. At that time, things will start unfolding exactly as they are written in the Bible. People familiar with the scripture will recognize it.
Quote from: Molly on November 23, 2012, 05:42:00 PM
It won't be unsealed until the end times. At that time, things will start unfolding exactly as they are written in the Bible. People familiar with the scripture will recognize it.
Nothing unreasonable about this point of view........many just don't like it because we are a "now" generation culture of people......we demand answers from Holy Writ which are often not there, and to add to the quagmire we "read in answers" that may not be actually be what God has intended for us to understand........go figure, often I can't.
Well, that's just one way of looking at it tho. We are also people who hate to admit we can't figure something out. In my opinion the only thing still sealed is the seven thunders(Rev 10:4). The Lamb unsealed the book(scroll) in the hand of the one who sits on the throne(Rev 5). The seven seals were broken and the contents of the scroll as it is unsealed makes up the rest of the revelation. Almost everything in the revelation is symbols out of things spoken by Jesus, the prophets and the apostles.
Daniel was told to seal up his book(scroll),"until the time of the end"(Dan 12:4,9). I believe Daniels sealed scroll was unsealed by the Lamb for John(Rv 5:5).
John was told NOT to seal up the book, "For the time is at hand"(Rev 22:10).
That means THEN, WHEN JOHN RECEIVED IT EVEN UNTIL NOW, in my opinion. What else could it mean?
Sometimes we are so literal till it says something we don't want to hear.
In the same way, if the dead in Christ rise first, first resurrection(Rev 20:1-5), and those who are alive and remaining follow immediately after "to meet the Lord in the air"( 1Thess 4:14-17).....and if the first resurrection is at the second coming(Mt 24:27-21) .......and if the day of the Lord and our gathering together can NOT come until the man of perdition is revealed(2 Thes 2:3,4), which is probably at the mid-point of the tribulation(Daniel 12:11).... how can we meet the Lord in the air before the time of Jacob's trouble?
That math don't work for me.
We are not appointed to wrath, but we are appointed to persecution, where is it written that we are guaranteed a ticket out.
"If we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him."
"Those who kno their God shall be strong and do exploits".
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death".
I think the deliverance is in the secret place of the most high for those who abide "in Christ", not a pre trib rapture, but again, that is just my opinion.
Just for consideration though,
Isaiah 26:20
" Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast."
Psalm 91:1
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
Rev 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
There was the ark for Noah. The land of Goshen for Israel during Egypt's plagues. There was the pillar of smoke and fire. There was Daniel in the lions den and Shadrach, Meshach and Abedneggo, which, in my opinion, is the CLEAREST vision of what the saints will face when the man of lawlessness is revealed, who will exalt himself above God and every so-called god and will walk in all lying wonders and deceiving power and false miracles of the devil- so that if it were possible even the very elect should be deceived.....but how could that be so if they got zapped out before it happens?
I believe God will demonstrate His glory in His people as OVERCOMERS not as ESCAPEES.
The idea that God cannot keep the faithful through times of trouble would be an insult to His grace and the sufferings of saints through a 1000 generations. There are other alternatives to a pre-trib rapture. Not sayin it's so. Just sayin.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Wherefore the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145119#msg145119 date=1353710798]
QuoteSometimes we are so literal till it says something we don't want to hear.
The first resurrection: Rev 20:5 "....the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection".
QuoteIn the same way, if the dead in Christ rise first, first resurrection(Rev 20:1-5), and those who are alive and remaining follow immediately after "to meet the Lord in the air"( 1Thess 4:14-17)
Quote.....and if the first resurrection is at the second coming(Mt 24:27-21)
Well then, there's another math problem here: Rev 20:5 clearly states the "first resurrection" occurs at the
conclusion of the millenium. In what verse of Matt 24 does Christ speak of a resurrection to occur at his coming? Verse 31 is the closest hint of such an event when the angels "gather together his elect", but from the context of the remainder of the chapter Christ only appears to be talking about those still alive on the earth who will be gathered together in Israel, but no hint of a
resurrection here.
Quote.......and if the day of the Lord and our gathering together can NOT come until the man of perdition is revealed(2 Thes 2:3,4), which is probably at the mid-point of the tribulation(Daniel 12:11)
Where is the passage in Thessalonians that states our "gathering" occurs when the "man of perdition is revealed"? I looked several times & could find nothing about our "gathering" in verse 3 or 4.
Quote.... how can we meet the Lord in the air before the time of Jacob's trouble?
And this is precisely the problem, nailing down a sequence of events that calls for a resurrection to occur at the time of Christ's coming.
QuoteThat math don't work for me.
Nor me, but we'd be discussing different math. If the first resurrection occurs at the end of the "thousand years" as is clearly stated in Rev 20:5, what then is this catching away that occurs in Thess 4:17 when the Body of Christ is "caught up" just after those who were "asleep" in verse 16 were made alive? We're very obviously reading about two different events, over 1000 years apart.
Quotetime of the unveiling of the man of perdition
There is no warning to the end-time Body of Christ that they are to look to the revealing of the one who will sit in the temple declaring himself as God as an event to look for as a sign Christ is just about to "catch away" the Body of Christ.
Paul in 2 Thess 2: 1-17 is merely laying out a timeline of sequences of events of the career of Anti-Christ, but I don't see Paul warning the Body of Christ to look for it as a calendar of unfolding events for the fulfillment of his coming for the Body of Christ in 1 Thess 4:13-17. Also, there is no resurrection mentioned in 2 Thess 2: 1-17 either.
Well we can agree to disagree Paul. I see rev 20:4,5 differently. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years, "the rest of the dead after" the 1000 years. This is the resurrection spoken of in 1 thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:23- there can only be one first resurrection(each in his own order) and it is at Christ's coming, which in my opinion precedes the millenial reign, since Christ must come in order to reign a thousand years, Therefore His appearing will precede the millenia. Paul speaks of the resurrection "at His coming". In Matthew 24 Jesus says He will come with His angels and "gather the elect" from the four winds- and Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise first. The timing of these things is really just details though. If we are "in Christ" abiding, we need not fear anything regardless of when and how it actually plays out.
As I said before, these are my opinions, I think they are reasonable and scriptural, but I don't want to carry on a long debate about it.
Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145125#msg145125 date=1353733808]
QuoteI see rev 20:4,5 differently. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years, "the rest of the dead after" the 1000 years. This is the resurrection spoken of in 1 thessalonians 4:14-17
But finish the scriptural quote: "
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection".
How can this possibly be referring to the resurrection spoken of in 1 Thess 4:4-17 by the Apostle Paul if you place it within the context of 2 Thess 2:2-17 as you assert should be done? The context of both of Paul's discussions in 1 & 2 Thess is pre-millennial.....not post millennial.
Quoteand 1 Corinthians 15:23- there can only be one first resurrection(each in his own order) and it is at Christ's coming,
And I'm not disputing that with you, the problem arises with the plainly stated words of Holy Writ that the "first resurrection" occurs at the conclusion of the "thousand years". This being the case, and we know there is a resurrection when Christ comes for his Body prior to the 1000 years, the math adds up to two different resurrections.
All I'm putting forth here is that these two resurrections are group specific because they are described differently.
Quotewhich in my opinion precedes the millenial reign, since Christ must come in order to reign a thousand years, Therefore His appearing will precede the millenia.
And I'm agreeing with you on this, it was part of the points I was making above. But again, what are we to make of the dead who are made alive in Rev 20:5 at the conclusion of the millennium?
QuoteIn Matthew 24 Jesus says He will come with His angels and "gather the elect" from the four winds
And I have already pointed out to you previously there is no hint here of dead people rising to meet Christ in the air at this point in time. Matt 24 nowhere discusses anything about a resurrection of dead people, not even a hint, "hints" about a resurrection are
read into this chapter using verse 31. If we start basing dogma on "hints", it soon becomes only a short path to complete confusion.
Quote- and Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise first.
And who is it Paul is referring to here? The Body of Christ.......not Israel as is what Christ is revealing to John in the book of Revelation.
QuoteThe timing of these things is really just details though.
One thousand years difference in time is a quite large detail.......
QuoteIf we are "in Christ" abiding, we need not fear anything regardless of when and how it actually plays out.
No disagreement here. I'm rather of the opinion none of us presently posting on this site will be alive when Christ comes to remove his Body from the planet, just too much other stuff that needs to happen that will require many more decades of events before endtime prophecies will be fulfilled, I'm under no delusions about that, just looking at reality.
You are misreading the verse. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years.
Rev 20:4 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
They "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
"The rest of the dead did not come to life" is a comparative clause inserted into a description of the first resurrection, which is for those who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and over whom the second death has no power because they have been judged already- overcomers in Christ victorious through martyrdom -the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and the word of God.
The rest of the dead did not reign for a thousand years, over some of them the second death has power, they did not "come to life" until the thousand years were finished. Read it thoroughly Paul
Dick and Jane Bible to the rescue:
4 I saw thrones. Those who had been given authority to judge were sitting on them. I also saw the souls of those whose heads had been cut off because they had given witness for Jesus and because of God's word. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue. They had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and ruled with Christ for 1,000 years.
5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.
6 Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests of God and of Christ. They will rule with him for 1,000 years.
--Rev 20
Quote from: eaglesway on November 24, 2012, 04:03:13 PM
You are misreading the verse. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years.
"The rest of the dead did not come to life" is a comparative clause inserted into a description of the first resurrection, which is for those who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and over whom the second death has no power because they have been judged already- overcomers in Christ victorious through martyrdom -the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and the word of God.
The rest of the dead did not reign for a thousand years, over some of them the second death has power, they did not "come to life" until the thousand years were finished. Read it thoroughly Paul
Yep, you're right about that. My focus was on the dead who are resurrected after the 1000 years are up, that's the "resurrection" that comes at the end of the 1000 years. So far as I can tally it, we're up to three distinctly different resurrections.
One of the expository books I've read on revelation is in agreement with PaulL.
It explained with scripture how there were at least three resurrections.
I remember I agreed back then, but 40 years have past and I can't say I even care about that
anymore since what will happen is what God wills :2c: :sigh: :thumbsup: to happen.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 24, 2012, 06:27:44 PM
One of the expository books I've read on revelation is in agreement with PaulL.
It explained with scripture how there were at least three resurrections.
I remember I agreed back then, but 40 years have past and I can't say I even care about that
anymore since what will happen is what God wills :2c: :sigh: :thumbsup: to happen.
Interesting the count could be tallied by independent observation....
Yeah cause I doubt you could have borrowed the idea
out of a book that's been out of print for about 30 years. :thumbsup:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 24, 2012, 08:38:36 PM
Yeah cause I doubt you could have borrowed the idea
out of a book that's been out of print for about 30 years. :thumbsup:
It was simple enough to do:
1. The Body of Christ believers who are raised prior to 70th week; 2 Thess 4:13-17
2. The Israelite believers who were beheaded during the 70th week & are raised at the end of it ; Rev 20:5
3. Others only identified in Rev 20:5 as the "rest of the dead" (although I'm quite sure I know who these are).
Three distinct groups of people each with their own distinct resurrection.
Back to REV 20 - isn't there another resurrection of those whose names
were not found in the book of life and were cast into the lake of fire? Since that is the second death
wouldn't those people also require a resurrection from the dead?
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 24, 2012, 10:33:13 PM
Back to REV 20 - isn't there another resurrection of those whose names
were not found in the book of life and were cast into the lake of fire? Since that is the second death
wouldn't those people also require a resurrection from the dead?
I was wondering about exactly the same thing when I enumerated the three resurrections just above. Your assertion must be the case because we see in the second death there are those who are cast into a lake of fire who still must be saved or there is no reconciliation of all back to God.
Of course they are cast into the lake of fire because their names were not found in the "book of life". So the question becomes: When do they get their opportunity at salvation? When & how do they get their names inserted into the book of life if not through a future resurrection? The Bible now goes blank at the point where the New Jerusalem descends down from heaven and its' only inhabitants are those whose names are found in the "Lamb's book of life" (Rev 21:27). You realize we may be talking about most of the people who have ever lived & died on planet earth, just sort of left out of everything.
Revelation provides a general criteria for those whose names are not contained in the "book of life", Rev 21:8. Would this exonerate any not found in this category even if they never heard of the only name by which they can be saved; for example neanderthal people who lived 40,000 years ago?
It seems to me there must be ages to follow the setting of the New Jerusalem on planet earth. What will be the period of time the New Jerusalem will exist on the planet? Certainly not eternally because contained in it's composition are physical structures subject to the natural radioactive decay of elements, we know this because there are descriptions of the materiel from which the city is built, read the compositions from Rev 21:10-23, so we know for sure there is another "age" of time here with the presence of the New Jerusalem.......after that...............?
:dontknow:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 25, 2012, 12:37:46 AM
:dontknow:
Well, I'm not quite at that point where I've thrown my hands up in the air totally perplexed.
I think there are explanations for the future of mankind beyond the millennium which are bound up in what the "book of life" is really all about.
We know who will not have names in the "book of life" , those who work any sort of "abomination" & "lies" Rev 21:27. But if you notice in verse 24, "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it & the kings of the earth do bring their glory & honour into it". Whole nations have been "saved" sometime after the New Jerusalem settles into it's place on Earth & the rulers of these nations come to the city to do homage inside of it....so we don't have a clueless start as to how the redemption of the rest of mankind begins......it ties into the purpose for the New Jerusalem being forged into its place on the earth's crust.
If you recall, "salvation is of the Jews" they were intended to be God's missionaries to the world, the salvation of the earth wholly depends on Israel's relationship with its' Messiah, until that gets fixed, the world will continue to be in a mess. This is what God is fixing, and I would submit that the only names written in the "book of life" are those of the House of Judah & House of Israel, this is what I think Dan 12:1 is cluing us in concerning what names get written into the "book of life", there are no names outside those of Daniel's people to be found in that book, no Body of Christ people, no gentiles, no Catholics......etc.
Now, when you go back to Rev 21:27, who lives inside the city? Only those whose names were written in the "book of life". If only Israelites are allowed to live inside the New Jerusalem, why are the nations of earth's populations & their rulers coming to it as stated in verse 24? They are coming to the city to be taught the ways of God, they are finally sick & tired of trying to do things their way because it has never worked, they enter into the court of the gentiles where they are taught by Israelite missionaries the ways of their Messiah. Upon receiving instruction from their hosts living in the city, then go back to their homelands & the process continues, then at some point in time all the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, but now the really big job begins, getting that same message to all those who have lived & died & never had a chance to learn about Israel's Messiah, gotta be a resurrection in here somewhere to do this....... Thoughts?
The following is an Old Testament prophecy that parallels what I was explaining in my previous post..........
Zechariah 8:20-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 "Thus says the Lord of hosts:
'Peoples shall yet come,
Inhabitants of many cities;
21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,
"Let us continue to go and pray before the Lord,
And seek the Lord of hosts.
I myself will go also."
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the Lord.'
23 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"
Quote from: Paul L on November 24, 2012, 05:56:17 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 24, 2012, 04:03:13 PM
You are misreading the verse. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years.
"The rest of the dead did not come to life" is a comparative clause inserted into a description of the first resurrection, which is for those who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and over whom the second death has no power because they have been judged already- overcomers in Christ victorious through martyrdom -the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and the word of God.
The rest of the dead did not reign for a thousand years, over some of them the second death has power, they did not "come to life" until the thousand years were finished. Read it thoroughly Paul
Yep, you're right about that. My focus was on the dead who are resurrected after the 1000 years are up, that's the "resurrection" that comes at the end of the 1000 years. So far as I can tally it, we're up to three distinctly different resurrections.
Could be three. As I see it there are two, but the second is divided in half. The first resurrection is for the ovecomers in Christ from all the ages at the second coming at the end of this age. The second, at the end of the millenial age is "the rest if the dead", which to me means all the dead that are left dead after the first resurrection.
IMO they go before the great white throne and those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life go into kolassis(lake of fire/outer darkness). Those whose names are written in the Lambs book of life enter the anakephalaiomai (gathering into one in Christ Eph 1:11 and 1 Cor 15:28)
I actually think the lake of fire is probably an age where the lost and the adversaries are sequestered into "unaproachable light" until every hidden thing is brought to light and every knee bows knee bows. At any rate, when the last adversary is subjected, the ages end and God is all in all- no more time.
Of course as I have said before, these are murky things barely written of- yet, because they are written of, they are worthy of discussion :o)
Quoteauthor=eaglesway link=topic=10823.msg145166#msg145166 date=1353823133]
Quote from: Paul L on November 24, 2012, 05:56:17 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 24, 2012, 04:03:13 PM
You are misreading the verse. The first resurrection is before the 1000 years.
"The rest of the dead did not come to life" is a comparative clause inserted into a description of the first resurrection, which is for those who come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and over whom the second death has no power because they have been judged already- overcomers in Christ victorious through martyrdom -the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and the word of God.
The rest of the dead did not reign for a thousand years, over some of them the second death has power, they did not "come to life" until the thousand years were finished. Read it thoroughly Paul
Yep, you're right about that. My focus was on the dead who are resurrected after the 1000 years are up, that's the "resurrection" that comes at the end of the 1000 years. So far as I can tally it, we're up to three distinctly different resurrections.
QuoteCould be three. As I see it there are two, but the second is divided in half. The first resurrection is for the ovecomers in Christ from all the ages at the second coming at the end of this age. The second, at the end of the millenial age is "the rest if the dead", which to me means all the dead that are left dead after the first resurrection.
After the 1000 years are concluded, the New Jerusalem descends to earth, another age of human habitation on the planet commences. This is not heaven on earth where there is no more death & dying, that is not the description in Rev 21:24 & Zech 8 entire chapter. Notice in Zech 8:4 "....There shall yet old men & old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem.......5:"And the streets of the city shall be full of boys & girls .....", flesh & blood human population, inhabitants of Jerusalem being reared from childhood & growing old, and presumably dying.......all the while this is going on inside the New Jerusalem we skip to verse 20-23......here we see more flesh & blood human populations pouring into this city to be educated by its inhabitants........in the meantime people are still dying from old age. When do they get a resurrection?
So far my tally of resurrections has increased to four. There's got to be one at the end of the New Jerusalem age for whatever length of time that will be. A thousand more years? A million? A lot of people living & then dying, just like they do now.