1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has truly come back from the dead, the first-fruits of those who are sleeping.
-> Jesus was the first-fruit of the first fruit harvest.
-> So basicly God harvested Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his right order: Christ the first-fruits; then those who are Christ's at his coming.
-> After Jesus the believers/saints will be harvested.
-> All during first-fruits the spring harvest.
-> I think in ET terms: The people that won't burn in hell
-> Also take note of every man. Is that really all? Or just everyone of the elect/believers? Stay tuned....
I'm no farmer but I think the spring harvest is least productive.
But the fall harvest is the one of huge quantities.
From: http://biblicalholidays.com/tabernacles.htm
The Feast of Tabernacles is a week-long autumn harvest festival.
....
The Feast of Tabernacles was the final and most important holiday of the year.
For the farmer the fall harvest will be the most important one because then he can harvest=earn most.
God is a farmer too. He harvests souls!
Exodus 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
=> The labours of soul-farmer God?
=> If the believers/saints (small spring harvest) are harvested at first-fruits who get harvests at the feast of tabenacles, the highly productive fall harvest. Perhaps those that are burning in hell forever.........?
John 7:37 On the last day, the great day of the feast (Tabernacles), Jesus got up and said in a loud voice, If any man is in need of drink let him come to me and I will give it to him.
What kind of drink Jesus is handing out? A glass of water from the fountain of life (of Revelations)?
Who is any man? Is t partying with the other first-fruits?
Seems about everyone is joining this party.
Deuteronomy 16:11 Then you are to be glad before the Lord your God, you and your son and your daughter, your man-servant and your woman-servant, and the Levite who is with you, and the man from a strange country, and the child without a father, and the widow, who are living among you, in the place marked out by the Lord your God as a resting-place for his name.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
=> The first-fruits?
Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
=> again Jesus offers water.
Hummz, I hope the above makes some sense. I had a clear story in mind but it ended up a mystery :thinking:
EDIT
If there is a first-fruits harvest there logically is also at least a second harvest. (those in LoF)
:cloud9: That's good WW, you're looking into the harvests. There are many, many truths to glean out of them. I'm just going to share one right now, hopefully others will see the thread and add to it.
Christ is the firstfruits, and He is also being "harvested" (raised up from the earth/us) in us. He went into the center of the earth/hearts of man for 3 days, and the 3rd day He arose. We know in the time line presented that we are in the dawning of the 3rd day, and therefore the daystar is arising in our hearts. Blessings....
Go back and reread Ray's article here (part 4 of LoF series):
http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html
He gets into the whole harvest parable: the firstfruit of the firstfruit (wave sheaf - Christ), then the rest of the firstfruits (the elect), then the year-end harvest (everyone else). God is not expecting a crop failure when the year-end comes :winkgrin:
It also shows up in some interesting verses. I like this Psalm:
Psalm 67
1 May God be gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine upon us,
Selah
2 that your ways may be known on earth,
your salvation among all nations.
3 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
4 May the nations be glad and sing for joy,
for you rule the peoples justly
and guide the nations of the earth.
Selah
5 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
6 Then the land will yield its harvest,
and God, our God, will bless us.
7 God will bless us,
and all the ends of the earth will fear him.
Sounds pretty great - people being blessed, all the people praising, nations being glad, singing for joy, etc.
Peace.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
I believe verse 24 is not a clear translation. When it says "the end will come" its talking about the end of the harvest, or the termination of a previous list.
Verse 22 says all will be made alive.
Verse 23 says each in their own order. First Christ, the firstfruits, then those who belong to him.
What about everyone else?
Verse 24 then comes the end - the rest, the terminus.
Do a word study on verse 24 and check out some alternate translations. Here are some of the definitions for the greek phrase used for "the end":
1) end
a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal
c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
The Three Harvests: Barley, Wheat, and Grapes
One of the great gifts that God has given to mankind is the ability to express ourselves through the avenue of writing. Writing allows us to take all of our beliefs, visions, thoughts, hopes, and dreams and to spell them out in a way that they can be read, viewed, and preserved for generations to come. Unfortunately, though, one of the disadvantages of writing is that we are only able to write, explain, and elaborate on particular topics to the degree we understand them at that point in time. As time goes on, we will naturally find better ways to say things, even discovering that we may need to adjust, amend, or modify some of the things which we have already written and put in print.
Throughout my writings I refer to the Feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles that are mentioned in the Bible, and how they symbolically refer to our salvation on the individual level as well as God's three harvests of souls on the corporate level. The three harvests that the Bible speaks of are: Barley, Wheat, and Grapes. In addition to all of this, I have written that these three harvests represent a "remnant" (overcomers), "the nations", and "the world in general" (including the church in general and all unbelievers). It is this last statement that I wish to modify and bring more clarity to.
After further research I have come to understand the three harvests (Barley, Wheat, and Grapes) which we have mentioned in a greater and more specific way. In previous writings I have assigned the Barley, Wheat, and Grape Harvests to: Overcomers, The Nations, and The World In General. In a sense, this is correct, but I have discovered through the writings of Dr. Stephen Jones a better a more perfect way to rightly divide and explain these three great harvests.
The Barley Harvest represents the first part of God's harvest. Those in this first harvest are referred to in Scripture as "overcomers". The gathering in of the nations is actually a result of the Barley Harvest. It is in and through the manifestation of the sons of God that all nations will come to know the Lord and serve Him. These overcomers shall come forth in the first resurrection to rule and reign on the earth under the leadership of the Lord Jesus Christ!
The Wheat Harvest represents "the church in general". It speaks of those who were justified by faith, but either did not go through or submit to the sanctification process of the Lord. They are believers, but are in need of further correction in order to be fully sanctified and put on the divine nature and character of their Heavenly Father. There still remains iniquity (lawlessness) in their lives that must be purged by the fire (the fiery law) of God. Those who are part of the Wheat Harvest shall be brought forth in the second resurrection to be saved "yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).
The Grape Harvest represents "the unbelievers". It speaks of those who have neither been justified nor sanctified. They shall go through God's wrath, judgment, and the lake of fire for the purpose of correction.
The Good News to be associated with all of this is that these three harvests represent and guarantee the salvation of all in the fullness of time. As far as God is concerned, salvation for all is not "if", but "when". Let us call to remembrance what Paul told us in 1st Corinthians 15:22-23, which states...
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order [tagma, "squadron"].
Here are some excerpts and quotes from the writings of Dr. Stephen Jones to support the things which have been stated. The quotes were taken from his writings entitled "Creation's Jubilee" and "The Restoration Of All Things". They are from various spots throughout these written works.
According to Dr. Stephen Jones:
"If we were to study the passages in the Bible where barley is mentioned, we would find much valuable information about the first resurrection and the character and calling of those who qualify for it. The fact that barley matures early tells us that the "barley firstfruits" are the first people to mature spiritually to bring forth the fruits of the kingdom that God requires. Barley also can survive drought, heat, and cold much more easily than can wheat.
The Church in general will be raised in the second resurrection. Jesus calls them "the just" who receive Life at the same time the "the unjust" are judged at the beginning of that final age in "the lake of fire." In either case, the fire that judges is the same fire poured out on Pentecost. God's judgment is designed to "thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn" (Matthew 3:12).
The baptism of fire upon the wheat (Church) is both good and bad. It represents a purification process, which is judgment upon sin in order to bless the individual. When God works to refine or purify someone, it is not a pleasant experience. No judgment is. But those who understand the mind and purpose of God will readily submit to His "fire," knowing that God is working all things out for their good.
Finally, a Biblical study of the grape harvest, with the treading of the grapes in the winepresses, tells us the fate of the unbelievers. The winepress depicts God's wrath, judgment, and the lake of fire.
The purpose of the grain harvests of spring (barley and wheat) is to provide bread for God's great communion table. The purpose of the feast of Tabernacles with its celebration of the winepress is to provide the wine for God's table. Without this wine, His communion table would have only bread and would be incomplete. God will have His wine, but it must come by means of the winepress, which speaks of the judgments of God.
God harvests His barley, wheat, and grapes in different manners, even as nature teaches us. The chaff from the barley falls away very easily, so barley is said to be winnowed. That is, the action of the wind itself (by means of fans) are sufficient to get rid of the chaff. This speaks of the barley company, who so quickly respond to the wind of the Spirit.
To remove the chaff from the wheat requires threshing. This is a more severe action, but it does the job. It depicts the fact that the Church will be harvested by means of judgment, or tribulation. The Latin word, tribulum, is a threshing instrument.
Finally, to obtain the juice the grapes must be trodden under foot. Grapes do not have chaff, but they do have "flesh" that must be pressed severely in order to obtain the wine. This represents the most severe form of judgment upon the unbelievers. Yet the result is that God obtains wine for His communion table." -end quote- (Creation's Jubilee, Dr. Stephen Jones)
According to Dr. Stephen Jones:
"There is more than one resurrection coming. The first "squadron" will be those who are called to rule and reign with Him (Rev. 20:4-6). The second group will be those believers who are raised along with all the unbelievers (John 5:28, 29; Luke 12:46) at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-13). This second group of believers will miss the first resurrection and will not reign with Christ during the thousand years in the Tabernacles Age to come. Nonetheless, they will certainly be "saved yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15). Jesus made it clear in Luke 12:46-49 that those servants of God who mistreated others would receive a "flogging" before being given their reward.
The third group will be the unbelievers themselves, after their time of judgment has been completed, for there will be a Jubilee at the end of time according to the law, wherein all of creation will be set free in the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom. 8:21)." -end quote-
(The Restoration Of All Things, Dr. Stephen Jones)
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id392.html
Hello fellow pilgrims.
Types and shadows are very interesting, and have alot to teach. I alway thought Egypt was a tale of two types of heaven, Joseph as Christ going back to heaven where his brethern couldn't go untill he prepared a place for them, in the mean time before their arrival being takin to prison to preach to the inmates, being elevated to second in command in the kingdom only under the Pharaoh who gave him full control, Moses being the earthly counterpart who came down from heaven, set aside His riches to live among his people and lead them out of bondage etc.........
It seems also there is a pattern of God sending someone ahead into the future so to speak, to spy out things and bring back a report about the enemies and fruits of the kingdom being takin away from the enemy and given to the chosen of God. We see Paul, John, being shown the Spiritual side of the kingdoms both on earth, and heaven that are going to be given to the saints. The possibilities are beyond are captivity to sort out completely, its there waiting to be discovered a fragment at a time.
A painting within a painting, within a painting etc.........................
Grace, Glen.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 28, 2011, 10:51:43 PM
The Three Harvests: Barley, Wheat, and Grapes
One of the great gifts that God has given to mankind is the ability to express ourselves through the avenue of writing. Writing allows us to take all of our beliefs, visions, thoughts, hopes, and dreams and to spell them out in a way that they can be read, viewed, and preserved for generations to come. Unfortunately, though, one of the disadvantages of writing is that we are only able to write, explain, and elaborate on particular topics to the degree we understand them at that point in time. As time goes on, we will naturally find better ways to say things, even discovering that we may need to adjust, amend, or modify some of the things which we have already written and put in print.
Throughout my writings I refer to the Feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles that are mentioned in the Bible, and how they symbolically refer to our salvation on the individual level as well as God's three harvests of souls on the corporate level. The three harvests that the Bible speaks of are: Barley, Wheat, and Grapes. In addition to all of this, I have written that these three harvests represent a "remnant" (overcomers), "the nations", and "the world in general" (including the church in general and all unbelievers). It is this last statement that I wish to modify and bring more clarity to.
After further research I have come to understand the three harvests (Barley, Wheat, and Grapes) which we have mentioned in a greater and more specific way. In previous writings I have assigned the Barley, Wheat, and Grape Harvests to: Overcomers, The Nations, and The World In General. In a sense, this is correct, but I have discovered through the writings of Dr. Stephen Jones a better a more perfect way to rightly divide and explain these three great harvests.
The Barley Harvest represents the first part of God's harvest. Those in this first harvest are referred to in Scripture as "overcomers". The gathering in of the nations is actually a result of the Barley Harvest. It is in and through the manifestation of the sons of God that all nations will come to know the Lord and serve Him. These overcomers shall come forth in the first resurrection to rule and reign on the earth under the leadership of the Lord Jesus Christ!
The Wheat Harvest represents "the church in general". It speaks of those who were justified by faith, but either did not go through or submit to the sanctification process of the Lord. They are believers, but are in need of further correction in order to be fully sanctified and put on the divine nature and character of their Heavenly Father. There still remains iniquity (lawlessness) in their lives that must be purged by the fire (the fiery law) of God. Those who are part of the Wheat Harvest shall be brought forth in the second resurrection to be saved "yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).
The Grape Harvest represents "the unbelievers". It speaks of those who have neither been justified nor sanctified. They shall go through God's wrath, judgment, and the lake of fire for the purpose of correction.
The Good News to be associated with all of this is that these three harvests represent and guarantee the salvation of all in the fullness of time. As far as God is concerned, salvation for all is not "if", but "when". Let us call to remembrance what Paul told us in 1st Corinthians 15:22-23, which states...
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order [tagma, "squadron"].
Here are some excerpts and quotes from the writings of Dr. Stephen Jones to support the things which have been stated. The quotes were taken from his writings entitled "Creation's Jubilee" and "The Restoration Of All Things". They are from various spots throughout these written works.
According to Dr. Stephen Jones:
"If we were to study the passages in the Bible where barley is mentioned, we would find much valuable information about the first resurrection and the character and calling of those who qualify for it. The fact that barley matures early tells us that the "barley firstfruits" are the first people to mature spiritually to bring forth the fruits of the kingdom that God requires. Barley also can survive drought, heat, and cold much more easily than can wheat.
The Church in general will be raised in the second resurrection. Jesus calls them "the just" who receive Life at the same time the "the unjust" are judged at the beginning of that final age in "the lake of fire." In either case, the fire that judges is the same fire poured out on Pentecost. God's judgment is designed to "thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn" (Matthew 3:12).
The baptism of fire upon the wheat (Church) is both good and bad. It represents a purification process, which is judgment upon sin in order to bless the individual. When God works to refine or purify someone, it is not a pleasant experience. No judgment is. But those who understand the mind and purpose of God will readily submit to His "fire," knowing that God is working all things out for their good.
Finally, a Biblical study of the grape harvest, with the treading of the grapes in the winepresses, tells us the fate of the unbelievers. The winepress depicts God's wrath, judgment, and the lake of fire.
The purpose of the grain harvests of spring (barley and wheat) is to provide bread for God's great communion table. The purpose of the feast of Tabernacles with its celebration of the winepress is to provide the wine for God's table. Without this wine, His communion table would have only bread and would be incomplete. God will have His wine, but it must come by means of the winepress, which speaks of the judgments of God.
God harvests His barley, wheat, and grapes in different manners, even as nature teaches us. The chaff from the barley falls away very easily, so barley is said to be winnowed. That is, the action of the wind itself (by means of fans) are sufficient to get rid of the chaff. This speaks of the barley company, who so quickly respond to the wind of the Spirit.
To remove the chaff from the wheat requires threshing. This is a more severe action, but it does the job. It depicts the fact that the Church will be harvested by means of judgment, or tribulation. The Latin word, tribulum, is a threshing instrument.
Finally, to obtain the juice the grapes must be trodden under foot. Grapes do not have chaff, but they do have "flesh" that must be pressed severely in order to obtain the wine. This represents the most severe form of judgment upon the unbelievers. Yet the result is that God obtains wine for His communion table." -end quote- (Creation's Jubilee, Dr. Stephen Jones)
According to Dr. Stephen Jones:
"There is more than one resurrection coming. The first "squadron" will be those who are called to rule and reign with Him (Rev. 20:4-6). The second group will be those believers who are raised along with all the unbelievers (John 5:28, 29; Luke 12:46) at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-13). This second group of believers will miss the first resurrection and will not reign with Christ during the thousand years in the Tabernacles Age to come. Nonetheless, they will certainly be "saved yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15). Jesus made it clear in Luke 12:46-49 that those servants of God who mistreated others would receive a "flogging" before being given their reward.
The third group will be the unbelievers themselves, after their time of judgment has been completed, for there will be a Jubilee at the end of time according to the law, wherein all of creation will be set free in the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom. 8:21)." -end quote-
(The Restoration Of All Things, Dr. Stephen Jones)
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id392.html
JUST FINISHED READING THAT WW. :bigGrin:
I've been struggling with the order of things after the second advent, then millenial kingdom, resurrections, lake of fire. This seems to fit well. :thumbsup:
Barley study (http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/COLDFUSION/booklet.cfm?PID=10)
Wheat study (http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/COLDFUSION/booklet.cfm?PID=11)
No thoughts on this topic people?
I think it's a very big topic. Bigger that the often quoted "Savior of all"
The harvests for example debunk Calvinism. (first harvest is elect)
If we could summarize the harvests idea in simple Scriptual terms, we would have have proof that has a large impact on orthodox theology.
No isolated :blah: but a teaching/article that covers a lot of verses passages and chapters. A framework. A birdeye view.
I plan on posting more hopefully today, doing some research now. The more I've thought about it, the first thing that comes to mind is where do the people fit who were resurrected after Christ rose? I've heard people say they just went back to their grave after proclaiming His victory, this would probably fall into the soulsleep camp. I haven't found any further info on what happened to those people.
I was just reading that barley was half the price of wheat, and was used as feed for animals and slaves. Don't know how that fits but ...
was there 4 harvests?
1. firstftuits harvest (picking what you can before the harvest then offering that) = Christ
2. barley
3. wheat
4. grape
Maybe I read it wrong, but weren't the wheat and barley harvest at the same time? If so I don't see how barley would equal first resurection, wheat 2nd.
Jesus = Barley (harvest)
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 01, 2011, 02:29:53 PM
I plan on posting more hopefully today, doing some research now. The more I've thought about it, the first thing that comes to mind is where do the people fit who were resurrected after Christ rose? I've heard people say they just went back to their grave after proclaiming His victory, this would probably fall into the soulsleep camp. I haven't found any further info on what happened to those people.
I was just reading that barley was half the price of wheat, and was used as feed for animals and slaves. Don't know how that fits but ...
was there 4 harvests?
1. firstftuits harvest (picking what you can before the harvest then offering that) = Christ
2. barley
3. wheat
4. grape
Maybe I read it wrong, but weren't the wheat and barley harvest at the same time? If so I don't see how barley would equal first resurection, wheat 2nd.
There were 3 harvests, each corresponding to 3 of the festivals. The barley was first, during days of unleavened bread, followed later by the wheat, during the feast of weeks, and lastly the grape in the fall, during the feast of tabernacles. The completion of these 3 provides the bread and wine for the supper, picturing the reality of the supper of the lamb found in revelation 19. The gospels speak of the fulfillment of the spring feasts, while revelation speaks of the fall feasts.
Ron
Short article about harvests in ancient Israel. (http://www.gci.org/law/festivals/harvest)
Irael harvested 14 types of crops over a 8 month period.
(http://www.gci.org/files/Harvest%20seasons%20in%20modern%20Israel.gif)
Barely was harvested the first Monday after Passover. Jesus resurrected on that First Fruit/wave sheaf Monday.
The choice of barley is obvious. It was teh very first just like Jesus.
But why grapes? Why not olives? Olive oil is burned in the menorah in the Temple and just like every detail of the menorah the oil has spiritual siginificance.
Many Jews believe punishment is limited to 3 months for most people. Going up to 11 or 12 months for the really bad people. I don't want to turn this into an age/for ever thread but because harvests are used as the start of punishment there must also be something that signifies the end of punishment.
Maybe making a list with all the major 2011 festival dates reveals something.
Ron, looking at the above table spring and fall harvests a hard to determine.
Grapes for example are harvested during a 4 month period. But taht table is based of current age farming...
WW- I don't want to turn this into an age/for ever thread but because harvests are used as the start of punishment there must also be something that signifies the end of punishment.
I wonder if the second Passover signifies the second chance. It took place the second year (I think) after the 1st anniversary of the passover. It was given for those who have been defiled by a dead body (all those in second death?) or those who were far away from home. If thats the case it would be about six months after the second resurrection. If human history (as far as we can see) will be 7000 years, and the entire harvest cycle goes from trumpets (day of creation?) to tabernacles= a year, then it could be 3500 years (6 months)
Hi Red,
I agree if a harvest starts punishment it also ends punishment. Jews even have a list with the duration of punishment. 3 months for most. 9 for the wicked. 11 for the very wicked. 12 for the extremely wicked.
I'm sure you have heard about wheat and tares :winkgrin:
tare 1 (târ)
n.
1. Any of various weedy plants of the genus Vicia, especially the common vetch.
2. Any of several weedy plants that grow in grain fields.
3. tares An unwelcome or objectionable element.
Vetch is harvested mid April at the first fruit harvest. (note the table is modern day farming in Israel)
QuoteI wonder if the second Passover signifies the second chance. It took place the second year (I think) after the 1st anniversary of the passover.
I don't understand that. There have been thousands of passovers.
QuoteIt was given for those who have been defiled by a dead body (all those in second death?)
I thought taking a bath and waiting a few days, and the body was no longer defiled?
From the 2011 Jewish calendar:
- Passover 18-26 April 2011
- Second Passover 18 May 2011 (exactly 30 days)
Second passover
QuoteIf human history (as far as we can see) will be 7000 years, and the entire harvest cycle goes from trumpets (day of creation?)
Yep, Jewish New Year. --> 9 September
Quoteto tabernacles= a year
--> 23 September
Jews have 2 calendars....
Jewish New Year (September) is the start of their civil year.
But the relious/argicultural new year starts 1 Nisan/Abib = April/May. But there is a mystery verse "but the blessed wait 2 weeks). 14 Nisan = Passover.
So those years are shifted 6 months.
September is the major harvest month.
But I think we agree we must used the religious calendar that starts at Passover. Otherwise Jesus would be mid-fruit because April is halfway the civil year.
I think the first thing we should do is remove harvests from the list that aren't mentioned in the Bible.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/3018483820_34134d8d23.jpg) <---- A Tribilium (tribulation...?)
Afflictions, Refining Influence Of: The Tribulum
In the pictures of the ancient Roman method of threshing grain, one man is always seen stirring up the sheaves while another rides over them in a crude cart equipped with rollers instead of wheels. Sharp stones and rough bits of iron were attached to these cylinders to help separate the husks from the grain. This simple cart was called a tribulum -- from which we get our word "tribulation." When great affliction comes to us, we often think of ourselves as being torn to pieces under the cruel pressures of adverse circumstances. Yet as no thresher ever yoked up his tribulum for the mere purpose of tearing up his sheaves but to disclose the precious grain, so our loving Savior never puts us under the pressure of sorrow and disappointment needlessly.
http://client.visuallink.com/~ggm/ggs/gg-1999-02/gg-99-02.html
The "Tribulum" Tool
I know thy... tribulation... but...
be thou faithful... and I will give
thee a crown of life.
(Revelation 2:9,10)
Thousands of years ago, farmers used a tool called a "tribulum" to separate the chaff from their wheat. Today our word "tribulation" is derived from the name of that tool.
Just as the ancient farmers used a tribulum to separate the chaff from their wheat, God uses tribulations to separate the chaff from our lives.
Therefore, "think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is come to try you" (1 Peter 4:12). "Knowing... that the trying of your faith worketh patience... that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing" (James 1:3,4).
http://www.endtimeschristianity.com/cgi-bin/webbbs_files/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=170
EXCERPT ----------------- FROM >
THE PASSOVER (BARLEY) HARVEST / THE RAPTURE HARVEST (PERRY STONE)
Approximately 40 minutes into the second sermon preached by Perry Stone
on February 12, 2006 at Rod Parsley's church, he told how the 3 major Jewish
Feasts had to do with the Lord's harvest of the earth.
...Barley harvest - Passover
...Wheat harvest - Pentecost
...Fruit / grape harvest - Tabernacles
In describing this, he said:
..."Here's what you MUST understand, they are all harvested differently!
...Barley has a SOFT shell. You cannot step on barley or you'll 'CRUSH'
...it. They take a 'fan' (it looks like a pitch fork) and they gather the barley
...together and they throw it up in the air the 'WIND' separates the outer
...shell from the meat which is the barley itself and they they collect the
...barley and bring it in. In the Book of Ruth, it was barley harvest."
This is the way he described these "SEPARATIONS" which are done
during these 3 "harvests" / Feasts:
..."When you go to separate this (barley), you do it by 'WIND'. When you
...go to separate this (wheat), there was a board and it's a board that you
...stand on and you take an animal and you stand on that board and you
...hook it to the animal and you go over top of the wheat (because wheat
...is very hard). And that board separates that grain and gets the wheat
...out is called, in Latin, a 'tribulum' from which we get the word, 'tribulation'.
...There is NO 'tribulum' used at Passover with the barley. A 'tribulum' is
...used at this feast (Pentecost) to separate the chaff from the wheat.
...And then, the grapes are UTTERLY, TOTALLY CRUSHED!!!"
..."The barley harvest is a picture of the saints whose hearts are 'TENDER'
...who do NOT have to be separated as wheat and chaff. Then, later on in
...the Tribulation, there is a separation of wheat and tare. There's the 144,000
...Jews that will be caught up to the throne of God. And during the Tribulum or ...the Trubulation there will be a CRUSHING on the earth that will separate the ...wheat from the chaff. Then the grape harvest comes at the END."
Perry Stone went on to say:
..."Revelation 4:1 is the RAPTURE of the church. It's the BARLEY
...HARVEST because the BARLEY doesn't have to go through
...'TRIBULUM'...the barley doesn't have to go through TRIBULATION!
...The WIND is the HOLY GHOST and all we have to do is let the
...HOLY GHOST blow over us and blow the junk out of us and blow
...the carnality out of us!
...The OVERCOMERS are represented by barley! But you get in
...the middle of the Tribulation and guess what you've got? You've
...got CHAFF on the wheat and so you've got to take this and you've
...got a tribulum and you've got to CRUSH it! You've got to CRUSH
...it to find out WHO is standing for God and who IS NOT!
...In Revelation 4:1, the 'CHURCH' is caught up to God but in the
...middle of the Tribulation, the 144,000 are CAUGHT UP to God.
...And at the END of the Tribulation (Revelation 14) it talks about
...the GRAPES OF WRATH!!! Take your sickle and go to the
...vineyard that's NOW RIPE and cut the grapes and throw the
...grapes into the winepress of MY WRATH!!! That is the LAST
...PART of the Tribulation period where the CRUSHING takes
...place and the winepress comes out to the city of Jerusalem
...and blood is to the horses bridle.
...You see, when you understand the law of harvest, it clears up
...this WHOLE thing. Is the Church going UP before the Tribulation...
...in the middle...at the end? God has NOT appointed us to wrath
...but to obtain salvation through His Son. That's what He said.
...He said, 'Pray that you be accounted worthy to escape these
...things and stand before the Son of Man.' He said, 'Because
...you've kept the Word of My patience, I'll keep you from the hour
...of testing which is coming for ALL THE EARTH.' He's NOT
...appointed us to the grape wrath!!!"
To me, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to draw a clearer picture of where we are today!!! Perry Stone didn't mention about the Pleiades being SWEPT THROUGH by the moon on a "4/1"!!! But, ironically, he DID mention
Revelation "4:1" SEVERAL times as the "BARLEY HARVEST"!!!
GOD BLESS!!!
Calvin
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2900/jewish/Never-Too-Late.htm
What I meant by second passover being the second chance is after the grapes are thrown into the lake of fire, they would get to participate in the second passover which they missed the first time around (the regular passover of this life, having Christs blood on their doorpost). They missed the 1st passover because they were dead (in sin), and far away from home.
If the passover=Christ death/res, pent=1st res, tabernacles=2nd res (or is it trumpets is 2nd res?) = 1 year, year 2 would then symbolically start with the second passover since first passover has already been completed
I've been wondering if in God's prophetic calendar that the months 8-12/13 don't apply. As far as I know there is nothing going on thats prescribed in the Bible during those months. What I mean, and I think you may have been alluding to it in the passage "the blessed wait 2 weeks" is in God's calendar there are only 7 months, so 2 weeks after tabernacles begins month 1. The original tabernacle was erected on the first day of the first month, which then would put the blessed waiting 2 weeks from the feast of tabernacles where they slept in temporary ones.
Or since 1, 4, 7 are self similar numbers http://www.abarim-publications.com/HouseholdSet.html, then one and seven are reckoned the same? (I'm not even sure what it means if its true) :mshock: except if 1 and 7 are reckoned as the same then second month would be the first month, and second passover would be in the same position as the first passover was. Yikes thats really confusing, I'm not sure I even know what I'm saying. The reason I even started thinking about this is that there are 2 new years, what happens if you overlay them.
Where you have 3 phases (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) then the fourth is like the first but an exponential growth 4th=Israels sons
1234567
1234567
1234
Examples being first and fourth day of creation, 1-light, 4-lights
Jesus came at day 4 (year 4000) and will come at day 7 (assuming)
1 Tabernacle 2 Solomons Temple 3 Zerrubabels/Herods Temple
4 Christ and ecclesia 5 Rome 6 Reformation
7 Christ fullness
Sorry if this is all over the place, I think laterally :dunno:
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 12, 2011, 04:43:17 PM
What I mean, and I think you may have been alluding to it in the passage "the blessed wait 2 weeks"
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/how_prophecy_was_sealed_7638.msg118731.html#msg118731
:cloud9: Love what you've posted here WW.....hope to have time and access to read at length soon...... :thumbsup:
The timing of Lazarus' resurrection on the first of Abib became a prophetic type of the first of Ethanim (7th month), the day of Trumpets, which signifies the day of our own resurrection.
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/weblog/WebPosting.cfm?LogID=656.
Theres some sort of link or overlay with months 1 and 7. Sort of explained in
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 12, 2011, 04:43:17 PM
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2900/jewish/Never-Too-Late.htm
What I meant by second passover being the second chance is after the grapes are thrown into the lake of fire, they would get to participate in the second passover which they missed the first time around (the regular passover of this life, having Christs blood on their doorpost). They missed the 1st passover because they were dead (in sin), and far away from home.
If the passover=Christ death/res, pent=1st res, tabernacles=2nd res (or is it trumpets is 2nd res?) = 1 year, year 2 would then symbolically start with the second passover since first passover has already been completed
I've been wondering if in God's prophetic calendar that the months 8-12/13 don't apply. As far as I know there is nothing going on thats prescribed in the Bible during those months. What I mean, and I think you may have been alluding to it in the passage "the blessed wait 2 weeks" is in God's calendar there are only 7 months, so 2 weeks after tabernacles begins month 1. The original tabernacle was erected on the first day of the first month, which then would put the blessed waiting 2 weeks from the feast of tabernacles where they slept in temporary ones.
Or since 1, 4, 7 are self similar numbers http://www.abarim-publications.com/HouseholdSet.html, then one and seven are reckoned the same? (I'm not even sure what it means if its true) :mshock: except if 1 and 7 are reckoned as the same then second month would be the first month, and second passover would be in the same position as the first passover was. Yikes thats really confusing, I'm not sure I even know what I'm saying. The reason I even started thinking about this is that there are 2 new years, what happens if you overlay them.
Where you have 3 phases (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) then the fourth is like the first but an exponential growth 4th=Israels sons
1234567
1234567
1234
Examples being first and fourth day of creation, 1-light, 4-lights
Jesus came at day 4 (year 4000) and will come at day 7 (assuming)
1 Tabernacle 2 Solomons Temple 3 Zerrubabels/Herods Temple
4 Christ and ecclesia 5 Rome 6 Reformation
7 Christ fullness
Sorry if this is all over the place, I think laterally :dunno:
<blockquote>
by Lorraine Day, M.D.
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
The three main feast days of Israel are each associated with a different harvest. The barley ripens first around the time of Passover; the wheat ripens next around the time of Pentecost; and the grapes ripen last in the fall around the time of Tabernacles.These three crops depict three classes of people. The barley represents the overcomers; the wheat represents the rest of the believers; and the grapes represent the unbelievers.The Barley Wave-Sheaf OfferingThe wave-sheaf offering shortly after Passover was the firstfruits of the ripened barley that the priest offered to God in the early Spring. It was always waved "on the morrow OF (NOT "after") the Sabbath" at Passover (Lev 23:10-14). This day is sometimes called the Feast of Firstfruits. The Ascension of Jesus "on the morrow OF the Sabbath" is symbolized by the wave-sheaf offering. Seventh-day Sabbaths, AND Feast Day "Sabbaths" such as Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles, began at sundown the evening before. Jesus was crucified on Friday. He died at 3:00 P.M. and His body was taken down off the Cross and placed into the tomb BEFORE sundown. Sundown was the beginning of the Seventh-Day Sabbath, The Lord's Day (Mark 2:28).The "morrow OF the Sabbath" was the continuation of the Sabbath (that began on Friday night at sundown) meant the actual full day of the Seventh-day Sabbath, what we now term Saturday. The women came to the tomb on the morning OF the Sabbath (sabbaton – Sabbath - Saturday) and the tomb was already empty! (See literal translation of these resurrection texts in "Was Jesus Really Resurrected on Sunday?" at www.goodnewsaboutgod.com (http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/)) Jesus had already been resurrected. He then appeared to Mary Magdalene in the area of the Garden Tomb on Sabbath (Saturday) morning, just before He was to ascend to His Father. For Jesus told Mary Magdalene, "Do not detain Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father." (John 20:17)Barley was the first crop to ripen in the Spring in Canaan and Egypt. In fact, the Hebrew month of Abib ("green ears") has direct reference to the ripening of barley in that month.The 7th plague was that of hail, which destroyed the barley and flax, but not the wheat and rye. (This took place just prior to the Passover, which was the 10th plague.) We read about the effects of the hail upon the barley in Egypt in Exodus 9:31,32. <blockquote>
And the flax and the barley were smitten, for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was boiled. But the wheat and rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.</blockquote>
Overcomers are referred to as "Barley"The three feasts of Israel, Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles represent the three stages of salvation from justification to sanctification to glorification.They also appear to reveal the nature and scope of the resurrections from the dead. "Each crop represents a different class of people. The barley, which ripens first, represents the overcomers of the first resurrection; the wheat, which ripens at Pentecost, represents the rest of the believers in general; and the grapes, which are trodden down at the end of the growing season, represent the unbelievers who are judged according to their works." The Barley Overcomers, by Stephen Jones, pg 10.The Value of BarleyThe first Scripture relevant to any study of barley is Leviticus 27:16. It reads, ". . . an homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver."This is the value of barley in the eyes of God. Fifty is the number of Pentecost and Jubilee. Pentecost was to be celebrated on the 50th day; Jubilee in the 50th year. Both are revelations of the outpouring of the Spirit of God. Pentecost is the time when the earnest of the Spirit was poured out (Eph 1:14; 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5). The Jubilee signifies a greater outpouring, that is, the fullness of the Spirit. Thus, while Pentecost is a down payment of a Jubilee, or the promise of a Jubilee, both are depicted by the number 50. The barley is valued at 50 shekels of silver, and this associates the barley with the outpouring of the Spirit, both in its earnest and its fullness.This is consistent with the revelation of the overcomers who attain to the firsts resurrection; or, if they are alive at the end of the age, their "change" (transfiguration) without dying. It is also consistent with the revelation of the "unleavened bread" at Passover and the flax (white linen – of righteousness) ripening at the same time, which is used in the priestly garments. All of these details point to the fact that the barley company is raised first among God's creatures. James 1:18 says, <blockquote>
Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures ("creation").</blockquote>
In the book of Revelation, we are told of the 144,000 who sing a new song before the throne of God. In Rev. 14:4, these are called "the Firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb". Firstfruits imply that a greater harvest is yet to come." Ibid. pg 11Gideon; the Cake of BarleyIsrael had been forced to pay tribute to the Midianites for 7 years. When Israel finally repented and cried out to God for deliverance, God commissioned Gideon as a judge, or deliverer, to save Israel. (Judges 6:8-10)When Gideon finally mustered his army of 300 against the host of the Midianites, he wanted confirmation that this was not just his own carnal plan. After all, the situation seemed hopeless. So God told him to spy out the enemy camp to receive his confirmation. Judges 7:13,13 says, <blockquote>
And when Gideon was come, behold, there was a man that told a dream unto his fellow, and said, Behold, I dreamed a dream, and lo, a cake of barley bread tumbled into the host of Midian, and came unto a tent and smote it that it fell, and overturned it, that the tent lay along.And his fellow answered and said, this is nothing else save the sword of Gideon the son of Joash, a man of Israel; for into his hand hath God delivered Midian and all the host.</blockquote>
Thus, Gideon and his army represent the barley company, the overcomers who will inherit the promise of God at the end of this present age. The manner in which Gideon's army defeated the enemy tells us how the overcomers of today will receive the promise.Each of the men in Gideon's army was given a trumpet and a torch inside an earthen jar, or pitcher. With little oxygen in the jar, the torches could only glow. At the signal, they blew their trumpets and broke the jars, holding up the torches in the air, causing them to burst into flames.The trumpet signifies the first resurrection of the dead at the Feast of Trumpets. The torches within the pitchers signify the presence of God in our bodies, which are the earthen vessels. At the appointed time, after blowing the trumpet for the first resurrection, these bodies of death will be broken, and the glory of God will burst into view, even as Jesus was transfigured before His disciples.When Paul was expounding upon the transfiguration of Moses (2 Cor 3 & 4), he made reference to this battle of Gideon by saying in 2 Cor 4:6,7: <blockquote>
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.</blockquote>
Elisha Overcomes Death with BarleyBarley is a hardy plant that can withstand drought and extreme heat and cold. So when the Scriptures talk of grain or meal in time of drought, it generally refers to barley, for wheat cannot grow under such severe conditions. In this way barley is a very good symbol of the overcomer, who will flourish in "times of drought" in between revivals when the Spirit of God does not appear to be moving.In contrast, the wheat company languishes when God seems to hide His face for a time. Like Israel under Moses, they tested God by saying, "Is the Lord among us or not?" (Ex 17:7) They do not understand that our faith is not tested while God is moving miraculously, but in those times when He is silent. Thus, in the time of drought, the wheat dies.There was a drought in the days of Elisha that teaches us more about the spiritual principles of barley. 2 Kings 4:38-41 says, <blockquote>
And Elisha came again to Gilgal; and there was a dearth (drought) in the land; and the sons of the prophets were sitting before him; and he said unto his servant, Set on the great pot and seethe pottage for the sons of the prophets.And one went out into the field to gather herbs and found a wild vine and gathered thereof wild gourds his lap full and came and shred them into the pot of pottage; for they knew them not.So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out and said, O thou man of God, there is DEATH in the pot. And they could not eat thereof.But He said, Then bring MEAL. And he (Elisha) cast it into the pot, and he said, Pour out for the people that they may eat. And he cast it into the pot, and he said, Pour out for the people that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot.</blockquote>
Since this event occurred in a time of drought, the "meal" which they used was no doubt BARLEY. (Wheat cannot withstand drought.) And so the barley was used to overcome death. It pictures resurrection of the dead.Jesus Feeds the Multitude with BarleyIn John, Chapter 6, Jesus fed the multitude with "five barley loaves and two small fishes." (John 6:9) <blockquote>
Vs 12 When they were filled, He said unto His disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost!Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves that remained over and above them that had eaten.</blockquote>
The overcomers will inherit the first resurrection. But first, they are the barley bread in Jesus' hands that must be broken to feed the multitude. It is not time to be victorious yet. It is the time to die. It is not yet time to enjoy a good reputation among the brethren, but to be made "of no reputation" (Phil 2:7), following the path Jesus trod. The barley call is not only a call to righteousness, but to brokenness. It is not a call, as yet, to victory, but to the despair of death. It is not a call to the throne, but to the dungeon and the wilderness. And when all self-righteousness is gone, when all impatience has run its course, then is death conquered by Life! </blockquote>
<blockquote>
© Lorraine Day, M.D. 2006. All Rights Reserved.
This document cannot be reproduced in any form
except for downloading for personal use.
</blockquote>
<blockquote> Return to Bible Study (http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/spiritual/home_study/home_bible_study.htm)
</blockquote>
A chapter on harvests. (http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/Chapter6.cfm)
The Antidote to Noah's FloodAs we mentioned earlier, there are two Floods. The first is the Flood of Noah, wherein the
wind, breath, or spirit was removed from all flesh; the second is the Flood of the Holy Spirit,
wherein the Spirit of God is to be poured out upon all flesh. The "latter rain" of Joel 2:23 is the
antidote to the Flood of Noah.
The basic outline of God's Plan to put His Spirit back into all flesh is revealed in Noah's
actions at the end of the Flood. Genesis 8:1 says,
And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that
was with him in the Ark; and God made a wind [Hebrew ruach, "wind, breath,
spirit"] to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged."The wind, or Spirit of God, is said to be the antidote to the Flood of waters. This is a
prophetic statement that has far greater implications than a mere reduction in the water level. As
He resuscitates the whole earth by breathing into their nostrils the breath of life once again, we are
brought into Immortality and Perfection, as at the beginning. Eden and more is restored.
The Scriptures also picture the Spirit of God as a dove. In fact, this was the original word picture found in Genesis 1:2, where...
the Spirit of God moved [Hebrew rachaph, "brooded or fluttered," as a dove]
upon the face of the waters.The same picture is painted in Deuteronomy 32:11, where God is pictured as an eagle fluttering over her young, caring for the nation of Israel.
And so we find that toward the end of the Flood, Noah sent out three doves to see if the waters were abated. This was prophetic. It tells us that God planned to do the same in order to overcome the effects of the Flood of water. Thus, the outpouring of the Spirit comes in three stages, both personally and corporately. These three stages are represented by Israel's three main feast days, wherein all the males were called to stand before God.The Feast of Passover deals with the first dove sent out. It is a partial anointing that
results in Justification. It is the salvation of your spirit.
The Feast of Pentecost deals with the second dove sent out. It is a greater anointing that begins the work of Sanctification. It is sent for the salvation of your soul.
Finally, the Feast of Tabernacles correlates with Noah's third dove. It
is the last anointing, for it represents the fullness of the Spirit poured out, wherein we see the redemption of the body (Rom. 8:23). At this outpouring, you receive the true inheritance that was lost in Adam: the glorified body. This is the full salvation in the Plan of God, as depicted by Noah's three doves and Israel's three feast days.
Corporately speaking, however, these doves and feast days depict three distinct
outpourings of the Spirit, when God intervenes in the affairs of the earth in a most unusual manner. The first was when He came down upon Mount Sinai as fire and spoke the Ten Commandments to all the people of Israel. This was something very unusual, and the Scriptures say it had never been done before (Deut. 4:33).
The second great outpouring of the Spirit occurred in the book of Acts on the day of
Pentecost. The third is yet to come at the Feast of Tabernacles, and when it does, the earth will give birth to the Sons of God who are fully in His image and likeness.
The three doves that Noah sent out give us a description of each of these three
manifestations of the Spirit. Genesis 8:8-9 says,
8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground. 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the Ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth; then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the Ark. My summaryStage/Dove #1: Passover. Barley harvest. First Fruits. Salvation of the spirit.
Stage/Dove #2: Pentecost. Wheat harvest. Salvation of the soul,
Stage/Dove #3: Tabernacles. Grape harvest. Redemption of the body.
Also read this (http://philologos.org/bpr/files/h005b.htm) article.
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
<blockquote> </blockquote>
the 10th century BCE (about the time that Solomon built the first temple in Jerusalem) archeologists found evidence of a fall-to-fall calendar being used by Israel. They found a stone tablet at a place called Tel Gezer which is called the Gezer tablet. This tablet contains a listing of certain activities to be performed during certain months, starting with the month of September. It basically follows the agricultural cycle in Israel. Here is what the tablet says, with our current era months supplied in brackets after each statement:"His two months are (olive) harvest: [Sept/Nov.]his two months are grain planting: [Nov./Jan.]his two months are late planting: [Jan./March]his month is hoeing up of flax: [March/April]his month is barley harvest: [April/May]his month is (wheat) harvest and festivity: [May/June]his two months are vine-tending: [June/Aug.]his month is summer-fruit: [Aug./Sept.]"(http://webzoom.freewebs.com/historicconnections/Gezer%20ours%202.jpg)
(http://historicconnections.webs.com/biblicalarchaeology.htm)
:thumbsup:
I am not teaching this, but I think it is an interesting possibility, that the saints who were resurrected in Mt 27
and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent, and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.
(Mat 27:51-53)YLT
were a first fruits wave offering. If so it would read, each in His own order, 1 Christ 2) the firstfruits 3) those who are His at His coming(first resurrection overcomers)- then comes the end(second resurrection all the dead that remain as described in Revelation 20:5&12) I think the idea that Jesus is our high priest within the veil and that He went to the throne room with with a group of friends(firstfruits) who are participating in the ministry of intercession and sitting in on the councils and counsels of heaven IS A GAS! (HOLY SMOKES!)
:cloud9: I like it! :thumbsup:
Sounds good.
A threshing board is an obsolete farm implement used to separate cereals from their straw; that is, to thresh. It is a thick board, made with a variety of slats, with a shape between rectangular and trapezoidal, with the frontal part somewhat narrower and curved upward (like a sled or sledge) and whose bottom is covered with lithic flakes or razor-like metal blades.
One form, once common in the Mediterranean Sea area, was "about three to four feet wide and six feet deep (these dimensions often vary, however), consisting of two or three wooden planks assembled to one another, of more than four inches wide, in which several hard and cutting flints crammed into the bottom part pull along over the grains. In the rear part there is a large ring nailed, that is used to tie the rope that pulls it and to which two horses are usually harnessed; and a person, sitting on the threshing board, drives it in circles over the cereal that is spread on the threshing floor. Should the person need more weight, he need only put some big stones over it."[1]
The dimensions of threshing boards varied. In Spain, they could be up to approximately two metres in length and a metre and a half wide. There were also smaller threshing boards, as little about a metre-and-a-half long and a metre wide.[2] The thickness of the slats of the threshing board is some five or six centimeters. Nonetheless, since threshing boards are nowadays custom made, made to order or made smaller as an adornment or souvenir, they may range from miniatures up to the sizes previously described.[3]
The threshing board has been traditionally pulled by mules or by oxen over the grains spread on the threshing floor. As it was moved in circles over the harvest that was spread, the stone chips or blades cut the straw and the ear of wheat (which remained between the threshing board and the pebbles on the ground), thus separating the seed without damaging it. The threshed grain was then gathered and set to be cleaned by some means of winnowing.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Threshing-sledge.png/800px-Threshing-sledge.png)Tribulation of the grain harvest.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Barriendo_el-_muelo_cereal.jpg/320px-Barriendo_el-_muelo_cereal.jpg)
Sweeping the threshing floor.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Cilindro-sello_trillo.png/800px-Cilindro-sello_trillo.png)
Treshing sledge third millenium BC
Who exactly are the overcomers? If there is no one good and we know nothing apart from what God reveals (we have no control), then it is difficult to understand who or what they overcome that qualifies them as overcomers. Am I one? Who can know?
Quote from: Deena on July 07, 2012, 04:29:34 PM
Who exactly are the overcomers? If there is no one good and we know nothing apart from what God reveals (we have no control), then it is difficult to understand who or what they overcome that qualifies them as overcomers. Am I one? Who can know?
1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Quote from: Deena on July 07, 2012, 04:29:34 PM
Who exactly are the overcomers? If there is no one good and we know nothing apart from what God reveals (we have no control), then it is difficult to understand who or what they overcome that qualifies them as overcomers. Am I one? Who can know?
That's a very good question Deena. Personally I have no clue. The verses Molly posted are correct but aren't answering your question. It's a paradox for me.
s a
I thought it did answer the question.
It defines who the overcomers are.
It tells us what we are overcoming--the kosmos [world system] created by Satan.
Imo only shallow reading defines what overcomers are.
Overcomers overvome the world. Sin and bad habbits.
That's a good thing to do.
But elsewhere we read we can't do anything good of ourselfs. We can't boast about anything good we do/did.
So if that overcomer is fully controlled by the HS the ovecomer was rather passive. What did the overcomer overcame if all the work was done by the HS?
That's the paradox for me.
It's not sin and bad habits we are overcoming.
It is the world system created by Satan, [where the sin and bad habits come from in the first place.]
We are told to do certain things that are active, put on the full armor of God, renew our minds daily, overcome evil with good, love one another, forgive, pray without ceasing--these things involve a certain amount of effort on our parts.
So it is not just a passive stance. In fact, even just standing itself is not passive but often takes great courage.
All of which we can do because the one who is in us is greater than the one who is in the world.
Quote from: Molly on July 07, 2012, 09:15:08 PM
It's not sin and bad habits we are overcoming.
It is the world system created by Satan, [where the sin and bad habits come from in the first place.]
Even that answer is a parodox to me.
We should overcome the world but the things that defines the world (sin, habits) should not be overcome?
QuoteWe are told to do certain things that are active, put on the full armor of God, renew our minds daily, overcome evil with good, love one another, forgive, pray without ceasing--these things involve a certain amount of effort on our parts.
Who does that? The person called Molly? Or the HS working inside Molly?
I am glad that some can understand my confusion. Jesus said that apart from Him we can do nothing. Perhaps He is the only overcomer and I am one siply because i am hidden in Him. I want to be counted among the overcomers. My heart feels like it will break if I dont see my Savior soon, but frankly my life does not reflect that i have overcome much of anything. Particular sins plague me like a trap door. Do I believe Jesus is the Savior of the world? YES and amen. But if anything is required of me beyond faith, i think im screwed.
Deena, sometimes I think we need to be careful with some of our overcomer talk. Sometimes we make it sound like it's about our own effort, even our own goodness, etc. While I am one that certainly does believe in obedience to the Lord, I am finding that can only be done by looking to Him - both for the strength to do it, but also realizing it's just HIS strength. I'm one that needs to just surrender to Him, turn things over to Him - I still fail/sin/miss the mark - I agree with Him I've done so, and He reminds me His grace is sufficient. And by that I think He's growing me (maturing) and that part of that process is realizing that it's about HIM, His sufficiency, His strength. I only have it if He gives it to me, works His works through me.
That said, I certainly believe we're required to make decisions about it; do I start my day with prayer and reading the written Word, or do I start with the newspaper. Do I look to Him and have my mind on Him as I go about my daily activities, or do I totally spend my day consumed with things and thoughts of the world - distracted by and focused so much on those things [which I often do] that I can't hear Him if He whispers something to me [in my spirit], nudges me about something, etc. Still, again, I'm one that can't focus on my own works to get there, because I get frustrated and it just doesn't work. I have to remember - and often reminded by my failures - it's about Him.
Some scrips that I think go along with this; when He saves us, He seals us with the Holy Spirit of promise; He who has begun a good work in you will complete it; looking to Jesus, the author (beginner) and finisher (completer) of our faith; nothing can separate us from the love of God; ..washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb; He will keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day...
Blessings...look to Him, pray for each other, know that He is able.
Awesome post jab and amen!
I just wrote this in another thread and it's quite relevant here as well:
We have to die willingly so that He can live and overcome in us. As we press in to know Him and His will and submit to that rather than our own selfish wills, He cleanses us and frees us from our sinful selves. Dying isn't easy but it's very freeing and the more "you" die and He lives in you, the more you realize how much in bondage you really were, and the more you can't wait to keep dying til the old man in you is completely dead lol!! It really is a paradox - the more "we" die, the more ourselves we become.
Salvation IS a free gift, but what is salvation? Salvation is being set free, right? Set free from what? Sin and death! This is attainable NOW as we seek the Lord and follow His will and submit to it and He cleanses us from sin and spiritual death.
His heart IS that of a tender Father. Think of a loving Father who hates to see His children hurting. Sin hurts us. But so many of us are still so much in the babe phase of our spiritual walk that we can't even see that. When my children have to get needles or other painful medical procedures done I dread it and often get teary eyed, yet if I were to deny them of those things they would be much worse off and in much more pain than if they didn't. Same sort of deal with cleansing us from sin. He hates to see us suffer and only does what is necessary. Any pain or curse that we go through in life or afterwards are actually BLESSINGS, intended for our healing and for our good. I know, it's almost impossible to believe sometimes... but when it's all over and done with we will see. He really is good. And He really is love.
Thanks lo. Yes, "He hates to see us suffer and only does what is necessary. Any pain or curse that we go through in life or afterwards are actually BLESSINGS, intended for our healing and for our good. I know, it's almost impossible to believe sometimes... but when it's all over and done with we will see. He really is good. And He really is love", and amen. My [affected by the world and my own weaknesses] mind usually doesn't see it. But He really is nothing but good, and His ways are perfect. Amen.
:cloud9:
And in basically every circumstance so far that I have had to walk through I can now earnestly thank Him for. For example just yesterday I was thanking Him for the rejection of men because even though it is excruciatingly painful to go through, I understand now that He was separating me unto Himself. If I am comfortable in good worldly friendships I am not likely to spend my time with Him. (Sad but true.) So He made me a heretic. :) So I am weird to the secular for being a Christian and a heretic to the Christians. To be rejected by the Christians was especially painful. In all honesty my "secular" friends were much more gracious in their rejection lol. It was more a drifting away because we had nothing in common. The Christians flat out cursed me basically lol. But God has granted me forgiveness for them which is another blessing that came out of the rejection. He is setting me free. :HeartThrob:
Lomara, what you wrote reminds me of something from CS Lewis--sometimes an asprin is enough, but sometimes we need to go to the dentist (yikes!). I know my hope is inHim and He will do the right thing. I think my hangup is that I want and beg to be free of a sin/bad habit, but I seem to have no power and for some reason no matter how much i pray, there it is. Sometimes i think its like praying for healing--sometimes God does. Sometimes not. We are all broken people in bondage to futility, but some seem to be able to live above it more than others. Is this by God's gift, or by "works"? This feels like a tug of war in my mind--if all is done by God, then why doesnt He help me? If i must do something then it seems its all back to works, which i have no power to do. I feel like Paul when in Romans 7 he asked who will set me free from this bondage. I know Romans 8 says it has been done through Christ, but what if practical experience contradicts this. Ok, now you know what kind of crazy lives in my head. :help:
Deena that is anything but crazy. Well at least in the sense that we all go through that (or at least many of us). Someone on here once said that until we grow up into the full stature of Christ and attain the mind of Christ, we are essentially out of our minds. :) I never forgot that haha.
I for one am still "out of my mind" (and I prove it to myself every day by the stupid things I do) but through the truth God is leading me out of the darkness. The truth sets us free, right? The truth is, you are right we DON'T have the power in our flesh to have victory over sin. But Jesus does. He told us that if we remain in Him, we will bear much fruit and that apart from Him we can do nothing. I used to read that and think, "well crap". Why did I think "well crap"? Because I didn't believe that He loved me and WANTED me. Until I realized that He actually DOES, I couldn't remain in Him. Why? Because He said, "Abide in my LOVE." He also said that if we love Him we will obey Him. This wasn't a threat but a fact. When we truly do love Him (by knowing Him and abiding in His love) that is when we will be able to obey Him.
You are definitely on the right track, and He WILL answer those prayers Deena! Keep seeking and pressing in, and you can also pray for a revelation of His love which really helped me overcome my unbelief.
Huge blessings to you. <3
Thank you for encouraging me. You are right--I will trust Him to reveal His love and truth to be free.
David said moreover, The LORD that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine.
And Saul said unto David, Go, and the LORD be with thee.
--1 Sam 17:37
Jabcatsaid, ".....sometimes we need to be careful about our overcomer talk" and I agree.
To overcome is to believe that He is our sufficiency, even when we fail. To remember that love covers a multitude of sins. To confess our faults to one another, maintaining a contrite heart. Thank God that any overcoming we do is the manifestation of "by grace through faith".
Often, the greatest testimony is that despite our failures, our inconsistencies, our weaknesses..... we still declare, "I know Him in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I hav committed to Him against that day".
What hav I committed unto Him? Surely nothing if not the forgiveness of my sins! If in any thing I please Him I will give credit to His grace. If in anything I displease Him I will even more be thankful that grace is mine. By the time I hav learned to judge no one He will hav allowed me many failures and I will hav realized that He did not come to judge the world, but so that the world through Him might be saved.
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death! Thank God for Jesuswho died and gave Himself for me. There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.
I agree, the thought of overcoming can become a point of pride as if "I've"done anything. I am just brought back to its no longer I that live but Christ in me, when overcoming is taking place, and its no longer I that live but Christ in me, when I fail. His grace is sufficient. I can do nothing of myself for myself.
I know I am probably beating a dead horse here but it is only because I really want people to understand that Christ CAN overcome in us now, here, before we die!! We CAN be set free from sin! There is absolutely no pride in it, on the contrary, it is a degrading, crushing, and humiliating experience where He exposes our sins, our flesh is crushed and ripped to shreads and all we can do is beg Him for mercy and the removal of those sins. It is partaking in the cross, spiritually. We die, He is raised. He gets all the glory because it is all HIM. We can do nothing to please God apart from having faith in Him.
Quote from: lomarah on July 10, 2012, 08:47:21 PM
I know I am probably beating a dead horse here but it is only because I really want people to understand that Christ CAN overcome in us now, here, before we die!! We CAN be set free from sin! There is absolutely no pride in it, on the contrary, it is a degrading, crushing, and humiliating experience where He exposes our sins, our flesh is crushed and ripped to shreads and all we can do is beg Him for mercy and the removal of those sins. It is partaking in the cross, spiritually. We die, He is raised. He gets all the glory because it is all HIM. We can do nothing to please God apart from having faith in Him.
:2thumbs:
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 10, 2012, 03:39:58 PM
I agree, the thought of overcoming can become a point of pride as if "I've"done anything. I am just brought back to its no longer I that live but Christ in me, when overcoming is taking place, and its no longer I that live but Christ in me, when I fail. His grace is sufficient. I can do nothing of myself for myself.
To me, this overcoming, I mean, the real root of it.
Note to self:
Don't be afraid. He does all the heavy lifting.
These things I have spoken to you, that in me ye may have peace, in the world ye shall have tribulation, but take courage -- I have overcome the world.'
--John 16:33
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 12, 2011, 12:30:37 AM
WW- I don't want to turn this into an age/for ever thread but because harvests are used as the start of punishment there must also be something that signifies the end of punishment.
Just re-reading this thread. I seem to have overlooked this question.... :(
There are 3 stages in a harvest.
a] The actual harvest.
b] Processing the harvest.
c] The final product.
a] All havests are done in a similar way. Cut with a cicle.
c] Saintly material.
It's b that you are wondering about. First of all farmers don't plant stuff to destroy it.
Why harvest it when it will be destroyed anyway. Just let it rot on the field. Or simply burn the whole field down. Why even plant it?
Why send Revelation's harvesting angels? hy thresing of the grain? Or threading the grapes?
It are all preperation methods.
LoF doesn't contradict the harvests. It isn't about destroying harvests. It simply tells the same story in a different way.
It's a stage b preperation.
The resurrections are stage-a from the harvests.
:2cents:
19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah
--Psa 68
"the God of our salvation"
'êl Y'shû‛âh