Tentmaker Forum

From time to time little thoughts arise that may be connected to a thread that one can no longer find, or maybe you think it's not enough to start a whole new thread with.

I know I've had that happen, and White Wings asked about it, so I thought I'd just start this thread where pertinent observations, ponderings, etc. could be posted.

Blessings, James.

The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters. Revelation has 22 chapters.
In the most pure form 400+ verses in Revelation are direct quotes from the OT. The chapters also seem to follow the pattern of the Hebrew alphabet.

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Meaning of Hebrew letters: http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/hebrewmystery.html

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List NT verses which quote OT verses: http://julianspriggs.com/NTquotes.aspx

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Random thought of the day...

We are often accused of not having scriptural proof of certain UR events happening, for instance anyone leaving the lake of fire. However, if UR was a given for the first Christians, there simply was no need for a such verse since everyone knew all the punished ones would get out, eventually.

Let's imagine that a part of a school class pulls off some illegal stunt, for example smearing the restroom walls with graffiti. Before the last class on Friday the teacher asks the class who were involved. The guilty students come forth and confess. They are given two hours detention. If I were to write a report of what took place, as an outside observer, I might quite possibly conclude with "the ones found not guilty were allowed to leave for the weekend, but the ones found guilty were made to stay for detention. The end." There would not be any need to further state "But after the ones found guilty had done their punishment they were allowed to leave, too. No-one was forced to stay at school until Monday morning. I repeat, ultimately everyone got to go home."

Quote from: Aleax on October 04, 2011, 11:47:08 PM
Random thought of the day...

We are often accused of not having scriptural proof of certain UR events happening, for instance anyone leaving the lake of fire. However, if UR was a given for the first Christians, there simply was no need for a such verse since everyone knew all the punished ones would get out, eventually.

Not even that because:
a] In my understanding they understood LoF far differently from most of todays Christians.
b] Jesus never taught about LoF to the public. Revelation was written decades after His death. (that means in the whole OT and most NT God "forgot" to mention ET stuff. Wel....)


(but even pre-Jesus Jews believed in UR)

With "first christians" I didn't mean strictly first generation of believers, more like the believers of the first centuries.

I know Jesus didn't teach LoF to the public. It's debatable whether He even taught it at all. Kind of depends on whether you believe "gehenna" was used to denote LoF or whether it was just the garbage dump and nothing else.

How do you think LoF was first understood?

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg119448.html#msg119448
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg122829.html#msg122829

Makes a lot of sense to me. Of couse it's symbolic for something totally different but I don't believe that's real fire.
I think the general public linked the LoF to positive things like everything that's part of the Temple.
They even used brimstone in daily use to get rid of pests in their homes and cure skin conditions.
Priest were in LoF on almost daily basis. Just a few minutes I guess. Only when becoming (high?) priest someone took a real bath in the and was washed by the other priests. At teh beginning of their daily Temple duties they washed themselfs. Not sure but I think it was nothing more than symbolism. Quick washing of the hands. Perhaps a bit in the face.
Dunno but maybe they even saw it as an honor. Taking a bath in the water that literally flowed out of the Holies of Holies.

Gehenna... that's a never ending discussion I think. But looking at their views on it may shed some light on it.
Humilliation was often part of the punishment. People were crucified naked. It puts extra shame to the crime.
Criminals that were executed sometimes/often? were dumped in Gehenna. Not hat the criminal noticed it when dead but he/she knew it would happen. It meant that their time on earth has be a complete waste of time. People that won't be missed. They were nothing but garbage.  I think the Gehenna references only were about the added shame.... That said another thread on this forum shows Gehenna never existed....

QuoteWith "first christians" I didn't mean strictly first generation of believers, more like the believers of the first centuries.

All early church fathers spoke only about correction. So my guess is that was exactly their view on LoF. Nothing much changed from pre Christian times. Just visit some Jewish sites and look for articles on hell. You will find none. Only about God correccting and restoring. So imo absolutely nothing changed with the LoF remarks. Jesus just happend to mention LoF. A concept known since Salomons Temple (or earlier????) If Jesus had used Laver,  Pool, Water bassin then the whole hell theory possibly never would have existed.

A list of the 613 OT laws. (http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm)

I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/

 :mshock:

As a meditation on sin and its consequences, Dante's Hell is a wake-up call. When John Wesley saw a sin-ravaged man on the street, he remarked to a companion, "There but by the grace of God go I." Dante leaves me feeling that way. Lust, gluttony, wrath, hypocrisy, deception, treachery — I'm guilty of every sin from the blustery circle of the lustful to the frigid circle of the treacherous. The architecture of Dante's Hell is the architecture of the human heart. But for the grace of God — his gifts of repentance and faith — the leopard, lion, and wolf will drive us all lower and lower down the pit to suffer the torments we've chosen.

Dante helps me hate and fear sin in a new way just as he helps me love and treasure the Cross in a new way. His meditation is hard reading and strong medicine — medicine that in the feel-good Church of the 21st century, we desperately need to take.  -  QUOTING James Tonkowich

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001421.cfm

Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2011, 06:39:25 AM
I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/

Good thing Matthew 25:46 is not the only verse in the bible about the plan of God :o)

But I guess it is the only one Augustine liked ;o)

Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2011, 06:49:21 AM
:mshock:

As a meditation on sin and its consequences, Dante's Hell is a wake-up call. When John Wesley saw a sin-ravaged man on the street, he remarked to a companion, "There but by the grace of God go I." Dante leaves me feeling that way. Lust, gluttony, wrath, hypocrisy, deception, treachery — I'm guilty of every sin from the blustery circle of the lustful to the frigid circle of the treacherous. The architecture of Dante's Hell is the architecture of the human heart. But for the grace of God — his gifts of repentance and faith — the leopard, lion, and wolf will drive us all lower and lower down the pit to suffer the torments we've chosen.

Dante helps me hate and fear sin in a new way just as he helps me love and treasure the Cross in a new way. His meditation is hard reading and strong medicine — medicine that in the feel-good Church of the 21st century, we desperately need to take. - QUOTING James Tonkowich

http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001421.cfm

MY opinion is that Gods will for mankind is worse and more just punishment than Dantes. In UR the villains must face up to their actions and take responsibility, but in Dantes hell, they never have to face up to their crimes and hide away in hell from the lambs justice.

In UR the criminals could have to face their victims in heaven and feel the shame of their actions in front of the hosts of heaven and their familly, they might be sentenced to become slaves for the victims that they did evil too and their concience will drive them to be the best slave they can, so they can be reconcilled and pay penance. The snakes who have killed behind closed doors in the shadows wil not be able to hide from their works. This is a far more terrifying prospect for them than Dantes version, since a lot of these criminals are hardened and do not fear the punishements of Dantes version of hell. I saw saddam hussein face the electric chair without an ounce of fear.

:2c:


:bigGrin:  (just added that I was quoting someone, TT)

I think Saddam was hanged, wasn't he?

CHB

Quote from: CHB on November 22, 2011, 10:07:46 PM
I think Saddam was hanged, wasn't he?

CHB

I saw a video of him in a chair,, perhaps he was hanged then

Quote from: CHB on November 22, 2011, 10:07:46 PM
I think Saddam was hanged, wasn't he?

Yes.
SkyNews footage. NO actual execution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYXczlVlLyY)










Do NOT click the following link if a hanging upsets you!

The actual excecution filmed with a cell phone. (http://www.spike.com/video-clips/grdds9/saddam-hussein-execution-full-video)

All truth passes through three stages. 
First, it is ridiculed,
Second it is violently opposed, and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident."   
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

Because false doctrine is so abundant: "The Truth will be the Strangest Thing you will ever Hear" - Paul Smith

"There is none so blind as those that won't see." - Jonathan Swift.

"There is none so deaf as those that won't hear" - Rabbi Samuel Thompson

"A man with a revelation is never at the mercy of a man with an argument"-Anonymous

"A long habit of thinking a thing is wrong gives the superficial appearance of being right."- Thomas Paine.

"A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed.  When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker, a raving lunatic."  -- Dresden James

"When a man or woman is honestly mistaken and hears the truth, they will either quit being mistaken, or they will cease to be honest. "

TRUTH!! Great quotes WW!

 :cloud9: HA! I had no idea A.Nonymous wrote that...... :icon_king:

Quote from: Cardinal on December 17, 2011, 05:12:58 PM
:cloud9: HA! I had no idea A.Nonymous wrote that...... :icon_king:

Anoying Mouse wrote lots of quotes pf the centuries.

Not a letter could be removed from the Law - a saying illustrated by this curious conceit, that the Yod which was taken by God out of the name of Sarah (Sarai), was added to that of Hoshea, making him Joshua (Jehoshua)

What is a jew? (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm)

In the The Apocryphal Gospel of the Nativity of Mary, the story is related that Mary had been living at the Temple with other young girls dedicated to the Lord since the age of three years. Her parents Joachim and Anna left her there to be educated.   God the Father thought of Mary as His "lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters"(Songs 2:2).  Mary turned fourteen years of age and the high priest announced that it was time for all girls of that age to return home and get married according to custom.   Mary had made a vow of perpetual virginity to God and told the high priest she could not  marry for this reason.  The high priest consulted with the other priests and they decided that the matter must be taken before the Mercy Seat of the Lord.  A voice was heard that said in order to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah, "a man should be sought out to whom the virgin could be entrusted and espoused."


"But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom.  The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him: a spirit of wisdom and of understanding, A spirit of counsel and of strength, a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD, and his delight shall be the fear of the LORD (Is 11:1-3). 


All of David's descendants who were eligible for marriage were summoned to bring forth their rods to the altar.  None of their staffs blossomed and the high priest found out from God in prayer that Joseph who was very old by this time had withheld his rod and had not come forth.  Joseph was summoned to bring his staff before the altar of the Lord and it blossomed and the Spirit of the Lord in the form a dove descended upon his staff and settled there.  Mary was obedient and became betrothed to Joseph.  She returned to her parents home in Nazareth and it is shortly thereafter that the Annunciation took place and the angel Gabriel calmed her fears and explained to her God's plan of salvation of which she was to be a significant agent.

Full article (http://wombsoflife.blogspot.nl/2009/03/aaron-and-joseph-priests-to-womb-of.html)

(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5976/hebrew.gif)
Click to enlarge.

Some information about all people and places in the Bible. (http://www.biblecollegeonline.com/The_Bible_Almanac.html)

(http://torahtothetribes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/3rd-Devarim-PP.012.jpg)

Bigger picture (http://torahtothetribes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/3rd-Devarim-PP.012.jpg)


Things are happening in the scientific realm.  Scientists, biologists, people who are studying DNA and chromosomes, are publishing articles through the internet. If they were to publish through their universities, they would not get the next year's funding, and so they publish through an alias on the internet.

In Colossians, when Rav Shaul says "by Him (את), all things are held together", the scientific community has shown that a laminin protein holds us together. The image above is from their textbooks, the exact laminin protein in the sign of the tav. Science is saying that without the laminin protein, we'd be nothing more than blobs on the floor.

bump by request.

:thumbsup:  there's a really cool video online about laminin. 

Online is a very big place.... :-)
Care to share?

I remembered that WW had some info re: people and places of the Bible (I want to gather more info about Jeremiah) in the Grab Bag thread... but I had to go through all the posts to find it.  Currently, that's not a big deal--there are only 23 replies, WW's reply #22... but when there are 365 replies???? 

 

Likely those post are part of the missing 6 months due to the forum crash.

I don't know Wings, don't have a link right now.  I can google it, but you're the google-master :).

Do you know the Jeremiah posts GR's talking about?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2012, 08:54:21 AM
Likely those post are part of the missing 6 months due to the forum crash.

hmmmm

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=laminin%20video&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CCgQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.godtube.com%2Fwatch%2F%3Fv%3DGYGWPNNX&ei=__s3UIzWPIyDrQGSiYHoBg&usg=AFQjCNEN7sW7e3jAidaqfsOV4UVVOVkklQ

short version (6 min. vs. 10)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=laminin%20video&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCMQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DF0-NPPIeeRk&ei=M_w3UP_vMMiTqwG144CQDg&usg=AFQjCNEWSKPWkDgRHlGY8mv7V120vuj0gQ

Quote from: jabcat on August 25, 2012, 08:55:23 AM
I don't know Wings, don't have a link right now.  I can google it, but you're the google-master :).

Do you know the Jeremiah posts GR's talking about?

Unfortunately not.
I can google a bit but likely it will be purely accidental if I find the same articles.

Do you remember anything about the articles GR?

Quote from: jabcat on August 25, 2012, 08:55:23 AM
I don't know Wings, don't have a link right now.  I can google it, but you're the google-master :).

Do you know the Jeremiah posts GR's talking about?

Reply #22 gave me the url I was looking for.  My concern has to do with the number of replies I would need to go through to find what I'm searching for...

so sorry guys... I inadvertantly send you on a wild goose chase.  I am truly sorry. 

no problem...lots of information floatin' around to sort through, for sure   :mshock:

(Neh 13:1) On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people, and in it was found written that an Ammonite and a Moabite should not enter into the assembly of God forever/olam,

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(Deut 23:3) An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of LORD, even to the tenth generation  none belonging to them shall enter into the assembly of LORD forever,
(Deut 23:4) because they met you not with bread and with water on the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt, and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.
(Deut 23:5) Nevertheless LORD thy God would not hearken to Balaam, but LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing to thee, because LORD thy God loved thee.
(Deut 23:6) Thou shall not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days forever.

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Forever lasts 10 generations

Jesus; Rabbi or Sage?

The term "rabbi" is derived from the Hebrew word rav, which in biblical Hebrew meant "much, many, numerous, great." It also was sometimes used to refer to high government officials or army officers (e.g., Jer 39:3, 13). In Jesus' day, rav was used to refer to the master of a slave or of a disciple. Therefore rabbi literally meant "my master" and was a term of respect used by slaves in addressing their owners and by disciples in addressing their teachers. It was only after A.D. 70 that "rabbi" became a formal title for a teacher1 and thus cannot technically be applied to Jesus. A learned teacher of this time period is commonly referred to as a "sage," so that term is a very appropriate way to refer to Jesus. Nonetheless, the designation "rabbi" may still be more helpful than any other in conveying a correct image of Jesus to the average Christian reader, if it suggests that Jesus was recognized among the Jews of his day as a teacher of Scripture, and that he was famous enough to draw students to himself. A Typical First-Century Jewish Rabbi From the gospel accounts, Jesus clearly appears as a typical first-century sage, or Jewish teacher. He traveled from place to place; he depended upon the hospitality of the people; he taught outdoors, in homes, in villages, in synagogues and in the Temple; he had disciples who followed him as he traveled. This is the very image of a Jewish teacher in the land of Israel at that time. Perhaps the most convincing proof that Jesus was a sage was his style of teaching, because he used the same methods of Scripture interpretation and instruction as other Jewish teachers of his day. A simple example of this is Jesus' use of parables to convey his teachings. Parables such as Jesus used were extremely prevalent among ancient Jewish sages, and over 4,000 of them have survived in rabbinic literature. Jewish teachers of first-century Israel lacked the sophisticated methods of mass communication we have today. Consequently the rabbis of Jesus' day spent much of their time traveling throughout the country, much like the ancient prophets, to communicate their teachings and interpretations of Scripture. An itinerant rabbi was the norm rather than exception. Hundreds and perhaps thousands of such rabbis circulated in the land of Israel in the first century. These rabbis did not hesitate to travel to the smallest of villages or the most remote parts of the country. In some instances they would conduct their classes in someone's home, but often classes would be held in the village square or under a tree. Jesus' ministry also followed this custom. Much of Jesus' teaching was done indoors: in homes (Lk 10:38–42), synagogues (Mt 4:23), even in the Temple (Mt 21:23; Lk 21:37). But we also find Jesus, like a typical first-century rabbi, teaching outside in impromptu situations. A picturesque account of Jesus teaching from a boat is found in Luke 5. The feeding of the five thousand occurred in "a lonely place" (Mt 14:13; Mk 6:32; Lk 9:12), and the Sermon on the Mount was so named because it was delivered in a rural location. From the Gospels we learn that Jesus likewise moved from place to place a great deal, often accompanied by crowds. Mark 6:6, for example, records that Jesus "went around from village to village teaching." He traveled considerably in Galilee, especially in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee, and likely in Judea as well.2
A rabbi's stay in a community might last from a few days to weeks or months. Although rabbis would not accept payment for teaching Torah, most would accept lodging, and usually food as well, for themselves and their students. Jesus clearly felt that his disciples should be entirely supported by their hosts when out teaching. In one instance, he sent out disciples commanding them to take nothing with them, neither food nor money (Lk 10:4). Covered in the Dust of the Rabbi A saying from approximately one hundred years before Jesus supports this picture of the rabbi in the land of Israel, and is remarkably descriptive of the ministry of Jesus: Let your home be a meeting-house for the sages, and cover yourself with the dust of their feet, and drink in their words thirstily.5 In the context of this statement, "a meeting-house for the sages" should be understood to mean a place where the rabbis could hold classes, not a place where they themselves could assemble. Had people not opened their homes to the rabbis, it would have been impossible for them to reach the masses with their message.

(Gen 6:3) And LORD said, My spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he also is flesh. Yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

120 years = 120 jubilee years.

Here is a snippet from the home page of stonekingdom.org which caught my eye:

Southern Baptists re-affirm belief in hell fire

Mega-church Pastor Rob Bell's recent book, Love Wins, was the catalyst for the Baptist declaration made this past Tuesday, June 14th, that hell is an "an eternal, conscious punishment" for those who do not accept Jesus.

Bell clearly supports universal reconciliation; i.e., the teaching that God will ultimately save every one. The story is here on the far Leftist Huffington Post, where, not surprisingly, they take great delight—especially in the responses section—in skewering the Baptists.

One Roman Catholic respondent even suggested the necessity of reinstituting the Inquisition to bring everyone back to the Roman church! God forbid! And here I thought we lived in an enlightened age (sarcasm.)

We have taught of Rome's sordid historical record in some of our recent lectures. In them, we have identified the papacy as the extension of the prophet Daniel's fourth beast empire. (They are not yet available here on the website, but you can order them by downloading the printable order form [click on the "Shopping" tab and click on the bottom of the drop down list] and find them at the top of page 3 of the order form.)

We are delighted to see Rob Bell's book "rocking" the church to its (supposed) foundations. I say "supposed" because the truth is that the doctrine of eternal torment is not a foundation of the church Jesus ordained, nor was that hideous doctrine even orthodoxy for the first several hundred years of the Christian church.

Rather, universal reconciliation was widely taught and for good reason; it is the actual truth of the Bible. We have taught the whole story from A to Z in our series of Bible lectures entitled God's Plan for Man. You can find a list of the 38 clickable lecture titles in the series here.

Through the course of the study, we dispel the awful doctrine of eternal torment in hell, as well as the nearly equally odious doctrine of eternal extinction. We then provide a reasoned and biblical theology of how and why God is eventually going to save everyone — hallelujah! That is true Christianity!

I have published part of the lecture series in book form under the title Sacred Secrets of the Sovereignty of God. We will publish the sequels as time permits.

****************************************************************

I used to subscribe to their newsletter "Feed My Sheep."  James Bruggeman, the head of the ministry is solidly UR.  Check it out!

Free will versus ownership (http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teachings/books/free-will-versus-ownership/)

Many disagree about whether or not man has a free will. This 26-page booklet shows from the Scriptures that free will is not the fundamental issue, but rather the fact that the Creator owns all things and is responsible for all that He owns. There are very interesting legal implications in this.

Good find, WW!   :iagree: Stephen E. Jones is one of my favorite Christian writers, and he has a knack of going directly to the  :HeartThrob: of the matter.  In this matter, I think we can say:  case closed.

Pit closed LS :winkgrin:

People read it. It's a very uncommon yet Scriptual approach  :Peace2:

"First rule in Hebrew study—Hebrews think in concrete and
Greeks think in abstracts. Concrete thinkers think in relation to things
that can be seen, touched, smelled, heard, or tasted. Some examples of
this are trees, singing, smell of baking, etc. Abstract thoughts are such
things as belief, faith, grace, etc. These cannot be sensed by the five
senses. The word everlasting (the modern translation of the Hebrew
word 'olam') is an abstract word. The Hebrew meaning of olam is
something like 'behind the horizon.' It is something that is beyond
what you can see (or understand) at the moment but may be revealed
as you travel closer (or at a later time). The abstract idea of
'everlasting' would have been a foreign concept to the ancient
Hebrews."

That reminds me of this:

Greek thinking:  I think I am.

Hebrew thinking:  I am.

I heard that years ago.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 24, 2012, 05:43:56 AM
That reminds me of this:

Greek thinking:  I think I am.

Hebrew thinking:  I am.

I heard that years ago.

Interpretation

I think I am = I might be maybe= I sorta kinda wished I was= What was I thinking?  :laugh:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 24, 2012, 10:21:15 AM

Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 24, 2012, 05:43:56 AM
That reminds me of this:

Greek thinking:  I think I am.

Hebrew thinking:  I am.

I heard that years ago.

Interpretation

I think I am = I might be maybe= I sorta kinda wished I was= What was I thinking?  :laugh:

Good one!  :LH: :LH: :LH: :LH: :LH: :LH: :LH:

I think, therefore I is.
-high school student trying to quote Descartes

Then there's the www forum version:

I post, therefore I am.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 30, 2012, 08:15:29 PM
Then there's the www forum version:

I post, therefore I am.

:laugh:

Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2011, 06:39:25 AM
I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/

The source word is Hebrew, 'olam" that is translated to aion. Olam does not mean "a period with a definite beginning and end".

Olam was a word of indefinite meaning, made definite in context with the subject unto which it was yoked. It primarily meant "beyond the veil".

It meant "other world", such as the "life of the other world" or "fire of the other world".

Because of this IMO the focus on aion by both ETrs and URs is a little overboard. Even if someone believes that the NT was spoken in Greek (I believe it was Aramaic and Hebrew)- it should be clear that the speakers(Jesus and the apostles) were Hebrew men steeped in Hebrew thought and that it is a Hebrew paradigm that ought to govern translation.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever(olam):
(Gen 3:22) In this case olam means forever, defined by the immortality that the tree of life gives to the eater

Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever(olam). And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise. It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou sendest him away free from thee; for he hath been worth a double hired servant to thee, in serving thee six years: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all that thou doest.
(Deu 15:17-18)In this case olam means 6 years

For since the beginning of the world(olam) men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
(Isa 64:4)in this case olam means something akin to "back beyond what we can see"

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old(olam), men of renown.
(Gen 6:4)Again, olam means something akin to "a distant past time".

So you see "olam" is indeterminate and defined by context and the subject it is yoked with. This word is the word that aion is translated from everywhere it is. That is why "aion" is translated in some places "world" rather than "age". Olam frequently meant "other world" as in beyond the veil.

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded "world without end"(olam).
(Isa 45:17)

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world(olam) in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11KJV)

He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity(olam) in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
(Ecc 3:11NASB)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He also has planted eternity in men's hearts and minds [a divinely implanted sense of a purpose working through the ages which nothing under the sun but God alone can satisfy], yet so that men cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11Amp)

He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
(Ecc 3:11CLV)

From these verses perhaps one can get a sense of the application of olam in Hebrew thought. There are 413 occurrences of the word in the old testament.

..various musing (and my blog 4 today) ..2 resurrections, the dead will hear his voice and those who hear will live..

I used to think it was possible those who do not come to faith during their life, they were beyond hope and they would perish (the lake of fire being the second "death"). But this too defies all logic and observation (second only to the Bible!)
-  Is it possible those all through history who have never heard the gospel, nor been told of Jesus, are all, every one, beyond hope of believing and repentence? Or, is it possible they simply fall through the cracks? Tell me truly, is that last one possible?
- Jesus told the Pharisees, whom He knew were wanting and plotting to do away with Him, if they were blind they would have no sin, but because they (say they?) are not blind, their sin remains. Not that anyone inherits eternal life without believing in Jesus. "Those who have the Son have life, and those who have not the Son have not life."
- 1 Timothy 4:10 says "God is the savior of all". And Psalm 22:27 says "All the ends of the earth.. will turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Him.." (God speaking of His covenant told Abraham that in him "all the families of the earth would be blessed". Not some. "All". The `in him` Paul, centuries later explained, is in Jesus. In Abraham's "seed" who was Jesus, "aLL families of the earth will be blessed".)
-  When man first fell/turned (from perfection/eternal life) God promised and revealed His work, His covenant - Genesis 3:15 - the seed would bruise the serpents head / overcome the devil and his works which is death and the grave - Hebrews 2:14, Revelation 20:14.
- There is one scripture which could suggest unless one believes upon Jesus before death, they are lost. This is when Jesus tells the Pharisees "if you do not believe, you will die in your sins". What does this mean to die in their sins? It means they would be of the second resurrection rather than the first. Surely a far inferior one, as the first resurrection is when immortality and perfection will be "put on" instantaneously with the dead's rising, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
- "...The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear shall live" - Jesus, John 5:25. After the two resurrections and the long span between them (1,000 years) will be what surely must be a very (very) long day of the examination of all things commonly called "Judgment Day", the examination of all human history and all lives as to what went right and what went wrong (surely? a long day of intense examination and review).
- At the close of this day shall come true those notorious words, "those not" believing ("written in the Book of Life) will go to the second death" - Revelation 20:15. "It pleased God... to reconcile all, things to Himself; by Him" (Jesus) "whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven" - Colossians 1:20.
- "And death and the grave will be thrown into the lake of fire, the second death" - Revelation 20:14. "Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father.. and the last enemy that will be abolished is death" - 1 Corinthians 15:24,26. "He will wipe all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death.. nor mourning" - Revelation 21:4.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 27, 2012, 08:13:56 AM
The source word is Hebrew, 'olam" that is translated to aion. Olam does not mean "a period with a definite beginning and end".

Olam was a word of indefinite meaning, made definite in context with the subject unto which it was yoked. It primarily meant "beyond the veil".

It meant "other world", such as the "life of the other world" or "fire of the other world".

Because of this IMO the focus on aion by both ETrs and URs is a little overboard. Even if someone believes that the NT was spoken in Greek (I believe it was Aramaic and Hebrew)- it should be clear that the speakers(Jesus and the apostles) were Hebrew men steeped in Hebrew thought and that it is a Hebrew paradigm that ought to govern translation.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever(olam):
(Gen 3:22) In this case olam means forever, defined by the immortality that the tree of life gives to the eater

Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever(olam). And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise. It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou sendest him away free from thee; for he hath been worth a double hired servant to thee, in serving thee six years: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all that thou doest.
(Deu 15:17-18)In this case olam means 6 years

For since the beginning of the world(olam) men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
(Isa 64:4)in this case olam means something akin to "back beyond what we can see"

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old(olam), men of renown.
(Gen 6:4)Again, olam means something akin to "a distant past time".

So you see "olam" is indeterminate and defined by context and the subject it is yoked with. This word is the word that aion is translated from everywhere it is. That is why "aion" is translated in some places "world" rather than "age". Olam frequently meant "other world" as in beyond the veil.

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded "world without end"(olam).
(Isa 45:17)

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world(olam) in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11KJV)

He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity(olam) in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
(Ecc 3:11NASB)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He also has planted eternity in men's hearts and minds [a divinely implanted sense of a purpose working through the ages which nothing under the sun but God alone can satisfy], yet so that men cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
(Ecc 3:11Amp)

He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
(Ecc 3:11CLV)

From these verses perhaps one can get a sense of the application of olam in Hebrew thought. There are 413 occurrences of the word in the old testament.

Olam does not make God eternal, God makes Olam eternal.. is that it? :)

Yes exactly. When attached to God, the "unknown quantity" is infinite. The "indefinite quality" is eternal.  When attached to a slaves indenture it is, until he dies or his owner sets him free. When attached to the ancient past, it is "farther back than we can clearly see". When attached to the distant future it is "beyond the horizon". When attached to "kolassis"(correction/punishment) it is until every knee bows and every tongue confesses and God is all in all. When attached to "pur" (fire) it is until all darkness is consumed and every hidden thing is manifest and our God, the consuming fire, is All in All.

olam  unknown, indefinite, beyond the event horizon

Wonderful explanation Eagle.  :thumbsup:
The way that I always see it (in simpler terms) is the world olam is a bit like the word great. 
Here is my example ..

"The man that gave all his money to the poor is a great man"

now let's compare the word "great" to God.

"God is a great God". See how the word "great" improves it quality and quantity depending on the subject matter? Same thing can be used for the word powerful.

"The man is powerful"

"God is powerful"

This is for those that find it hard to grasp the word aion or olam :) clearly with these examples both words can only mean "without beginning and end" when used according to God and his eternal nature.

Yea, I agree, with one exception perhaps. I believe that by insisting that aion never means "forever" or "endless" or "everlasting" or "without beginning or end" proponents of UR have hemmed themselves into an unsustainable argument- because the core thought is "olam" not "aion" which is a Greek paraphrase of "olam" that scholars have unjustifiably elevated to the level of translation.

By insisting that "aion" always means a period with a beginning and an end, they have separated "aion" from "olam"- and objective scholars can see that and they know it doesnt hold.

IMO the better argument is to show the relationship between "olam" and "aion", strengthening the chain of meaning to "olam" as an indefinite period or hidden reality defined  only in relationship to the subject(God, man, slave, period in antiquity, period in distant future, period of correction, etc.)

Rev 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

Sea is living mankind. + Earth is grave.  = Authority over both the living and the dead.

It's fair to assume this takes place on the coastline of Israel. When the right foot is in the sea and the left on the land of Israel the person faces south. Imo more importantly the back faces north toward Gog/Magog. Disinheritance. Death. War follows.

Just a  :Chinscratch: worth about  :2c:




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Ezek 3:1 Moreover he said to me, Son of man, eat that you find; eat this roll, and go speak to the house of Israel.
2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
3 And he said to me, Son of man, cause your belly to eat, and fill your bowels with this roll that I give you. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

I'm unable to place the Rev verse in context but when young Jewish boys first went to Torah class the rabbi instructed them to dip the corner or their Torah scroll in honey. Tear it off and eat it.

Rev 19:16 And he has on his clothing and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

It's not a tatoo. It's not even written. Jews wear talits, prayer shawls. A shawl had tassels on its corners. The tassels were made in a special way (strands and knots) and spelled the name of God. So imo it was a tassel hanging on the riders tigh.
Which is of importance because it means this white horse rider has a full talit while the first satanic white horse ride had only a crown which wasn't a regular crown but the part of the talit called a crown because usually it had golden letters on it.

" but part of the toilet called a crown."  Toilet?? am I missing something - as usual?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2013, 06:51:01 PM

When the left foot is in the sea and the right on the land of Israel the person faces south. Imo more importantly the back faces north toward Gog/Magog.

Nope - you'd be facing North.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 18, 2013, 11:14:49 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 17, 2013, 06:51:01 PM

When the left foot is in the sea and the right on the land of Israel the person faces south. Imo more importantly the back faces north toward Gog/Magog.

Nope - you'd be facing North.

Well spotted LS. I wrote the exact opposite of the verse. I'll edit my post.

Matt 6:5 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This wasn't a room* as we find in a house. It was the talit/prayer shawl pulled over the head.
*=closet in other translations.

The Greek word here for "closet" is the Greek Word "temian".  It is literally mean an inner chamber or "secret Room"

The shawl usually (always?) is blue/white.
WHITE: Representing the Heavens, which is the dwelling place of the Lord! The Color Blue Representing "Ruach Ha Kodesh" the Holy Spirit of God! Therefore when they pray under the "talith", the prayer-shawl, they are literally, it's like you are covering yourself with the presence of God!

Rather weak proof for this is that Jesus was traveling a lot and likely often slept outside. He didn't have a closet/room to hide in. In fact most Jewish houses were just single room houses.

As usual, totally contrary to commonly accepted understanding....  :Pray:

I would disagree with that conclusion WW (which doesnt make me right of course :o)

The key word is secret in my opinion. Jesus was speaking to the issue of those who made "a great show" of their holiness in praying for public attention. He was explaining that God has no regard for such demonstrations- they impress man, not God. I don't think Jesus was instructing men to go into any particular room or to pray under a shawl either. He was making a point about reality- what God regards as real in us, and how we understand it- or don't. Sometimes we get lost in the details and miss the point. The point is the thing that matters. The details may help or hinder our "getting it".

EW, to my understanding "the room" or "the closet" was a commonly accepted idiom. If so Jesus wasn't defining or instructing something new but merely pointing to a custom every Jew knew about.
He uses it as a contrast to those finding high exposing places to act as holy as they can. (on which we fully agree)

QuoteThe point is the thing that matters. The details may help or hinder our "getting it".

Likely that is so in some cases. But in my opinion that the risk is vastly outweighed by finding the details which often are customs which in their turn can provide a valuable key.
That's my approach as about everyone must be aware of :declare: I can't imagine doing things otherwise while others love the opposite approach.
That's life...

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 18, 2013, 12:02:57 PM
Matt 6:5 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This wasn't a room* as we find in a house. It was the talit/prayer shawl pulled over the head.
*=closet in other translations.

The Greek word here for "closet" is the Greek Word "temian".  It is literally mean an inner chamber or "secret Room"

The shawl usually (always?) is blue/white.
WHITE: Representing the Heavens, which is the dwelling place of the Lord! The Color Blue Representing "Ruach Ha Kodesh" the Holy Spirit of God! Therefore when they pray under the "talith", the prayer-shawl, they are literally, it's like you are covering yourself with the presence of God!

Rather week proof for this is that Jesus was traveling a lot and likely often slept outside. He didn't have a closet/room to hide in. In fact most Jewish houses were just single room houses.

As usual, totally contrary to commonly accepted understanding....  :Pray:

I'm just coming back temporarily to say this is a beautiful post, ww, and really moved me.


This is the way I see it.  Jesus is saying, pray under the covering of the Holy Spirit in the very presence of God [the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity].


You will remember that the disciples received the Holy Spirit twice.  Once from the resurrected Christ directly, when he breathed on them and said, Receive ye the Holy Spirit.  This is the indwelling Spirit.


But, then, the second time--he told them to wait in the upper room [to be anointed by the Holy Spirit,] where the Holy Spirit descends on their heads from above in tongues of fire--this is a baptism of the Holy Spirit, an anointing, in the same way the kings and priests were anointed, the oil poured over the head, and running down the beard onto the clothes, an external covering.


1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.


2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.--Psa 91





"in the secret place"

H5643

סתרה סתר

sêther sithrâh

say'-ther, sith-raw'

From H5641; a cover (in a good or a bad, a literal or a figurative sense): - backbiting, covering, covert, X disguise [-th], hiding place, privily, protection, secret (-ly, place).



From the root word H5641 meaning to hide, keep close, conceal.


Mat 6:5  When you pray, --[go into the secret place, under the covering of the Holy Spirit, in the very presence of God...]


This is the covering Jesus used to conceal himself in the midst of crowds who had decided to kill him for claiming to be God.




God is doing a mighty work in you, ww, as I always knew he would.


God bless.

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2013, 07:44:47 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 18, 2013, 12:02:57 PM



This is the way I see it.  Jesus is saying, pray under the covering of the Holy Spirit in the very presence of God [the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity].

Molly the Holy Spirit is not the "third person of the trinity". We have discussed this before and you didn't have much if any support for it the last time it came up. You are not going to change peoples minds by slipping it in where ever you see the opportunity. I for one would appreciate if you keep the false doctrine of the trinity under your talit.

DuWayne

The battle is in my mind .
The flesh and the spirit at war.

When I pray in a manner, that the results of such prayer,
are evident to those around me.
Those around me will want to appeal to me and my flesh to
do it again .They want it bigger they me to hit the rock harder.

When I pray and the evidence, of the results of such prayers,
are only spiritually discerned .

I and my flesh can be easily dismissed .

I and my spirit will not be denied.
God will extract the Glory for Jesus as I give up
my Flesh's desire to bring Glory to the Christ.     

DuWayne your post to Molly is out of line.  She has the right to air her views as much as you do.  She is within the guidelines of the forum in her post, regardless of whether or not you think her view is false. 

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2013, 07:44:47 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 18, 2013, 12:02:57 PM
Matt 6:5 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This wasn't a room* as we find in a house. It was the talit/prayer shawl pulled over the head.
*=closet in other translations.

The Greek word here for "closet" is the Greek Word "temian".  It is literally mean an inner chamber or "secret Room"

The shawl usually (always?) is blue/white.
WHITE: Representing the Heavens, which is the dwelling place of the Lord! The Color Blue Representing "Ruach Ha Kodesh" the Holy Spirit of God! Therefore when they pray under the "talith", the prayer-shawl, they are literally, it's like you are covering yourself with the presence of God!

Rather week proof for this is that Jesus was traveling a lot and likely often slept outside. He didn't have a closet/room to hide in. In fact most Jewish houses were just single room houses.

As usual, totally contrary to commonly accepted understanding....  :Pray:

I'm just coming back temporarily to say this is a beautiful post, ww, and really moved me.


This is the way I see it.  Jesus is saying, pray under the covering of the Holy Spirit in the very presence of God [the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity].

For more suprises check out what the 4 angels on the corners of the earth are holding. :dsunny:

Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2013, 08:26:54 PM
The battle is in my mind .
The flesh and the spirit at war.

When I pray in a manner, that the results of such prayer,
are evident to those around me.
Those around me will want to appeal to me and my flesh to
do it again .They want it bigger they me to hit the rock harder.

When I pray and the evidence, of the results of such prayers,
are only spiritually discerned .

I and my flesh can be easily dismissed .

I and my spirit will not be denied.
God will extract the Glory for Jesus as I give up
my Flesh's desire to bring Glory to the Christ.   

:dsunny:

Quote from: redhotmagma on August 19, 2013, 08:29:52 PM
DuWayne your post to Molly is out of line.  She has the right to air her views as much as you do.  She is within the guidelines of the forum in her post, regardless of whether or not you think her view is false.

"This is the way I see it.  Jesus is saying, pray under the covering of the Holy Spirit in the very presence of God [the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity]." (Molly)

I will only say redhotmagma you must admit throwing in the statement, "[the Holy Spirit is God,  the third Person of the trinity]" would raise a feather or two.  :2c:

Quote from: redhotmagma on August 19, 2013, 08:29:52 PM
DuWayne your post to Molly is out of line.  She has the right to air her views as much as you do.  She is within the guidelines of the forum in her post, regardless of whether or not you think her view is false.

My problem is not with Molly's point of view but the thread was locked for a reason and I would think that she would have to common courtesy to not bring up that forbidden subject again.   I am trying to honor what the mods had decided by steering clear of it altogether and then  she brings it up again. It is a passionate subject to me because I see it for what it is....pagan doctrine.

All well and good Moderates, yet, a "pagan doctrine," in this case a religious theory, for me, is one that has no evidence of verse that states this, that, or whatever has substance. THAT is the rub, no offence intended; there is no evidence, in even one of the translations I have that the Holy Spirit is a person or speaks of any trinity. I sent a PM to Molly regretting that our discourse came to such a plight that would cause a silence of division, as it seems to have. But for me her post was a slight.  :HeartThrob:
And should this response cause me to be dropped(polite word) then that is what it will be. I do not feel( a syndrome of a human) that  mplsfitter539's response was out of line. :dsunny:

Well, I've been watching this, and we're really bordering on discussing moderation issues publically, which probably needs to change direction real quickly.   :2c:

I don't know, but often we don't feel someone else's comments are out of line if they suit our own view.    Simply expressing a view, either way, is not out of line.  Telling someone, basically, to keep their mouth shut, is another issue.  What one person sees in a topic, may be just the opposite the other sees/understands, but then it goes right back the other direction too - while both are trying to get their understanding out of the same scriptures.   I believe since we're all human, we're veiled to varying degrees, have different understandings and abilities, etc.   That's why we encourage discussion rather than outright debate or arguing, i.e., "you're wrong and I'm right, so be quiet about it".  Because if that goes on ad infinitum, one person may think they've won - but in the process, what's happened is, the community/forum has lost.

I commend you micah on your PM, good job.  This thread isn't about Molly, but since there keep being comments, I'm going to say this.  I'm not saying that anyone in that most recent discussion said everything perfectly.  However, a particular participant involved had been a member for 6-8 years.  Also that member had come to the understanding of The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ during those years of participation on the forum (the focus of the forum) - and that not until having been on the forum for several years, in fact, only about 3 years ago.     However, following that thread, that member has pretty much left the forum.  Over-all, who won?

ABSOLUTELY NO ONE! It is, in my opinion, it is, and should not be a matter of winning or losing. When we, all, I, discuss the Bible, the doctrines that we, all, I, pick up along the way, without the Bible as our solid foundation, are nothing more than the teachings(doctrines) we, I, all, pickup along the way. For me the Word of God is difficult enough attempting to discern with what small amount of wisdom and knowledge I, we, all, have been given by the Holy Spirit.
When we, I, all, build on a Truth, heated as the discussion maybe come, we, I, all, will learn. Building on a doctrine outside of that, is what is so often called for on the forum is opinion. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

PS. thank you Jabcat

Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2013, 08:26:54 PM
The battle is in my mind .
The flesh and the spirit at war.

When I pray in a manner, that the results of such prayer,
are evident to those around me.
Those around me will want to appeal to me and my flesh to
do it again .They want it bigger they me to hit the rock harder.

When I pray and the evidence, of the results of such prayers,
are only spiritually discerned .

I and my flesh can be easily dismissed .

I and my spirit will not be denied.
God will extract the Glory for Jesus as I give up
my Flesh's desire to bring Glory to the Christ.   

Beautiful and insightful post. :HeartThrob:

Matt 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak you in light: and what you hear in the ear, that preach you on the housetops.

In a synagogue the rabbi reads and speaks/whispers the word into the ear of the meturgan. The meturgan was highly skilled in both ancient and modern (of that day) Hebrew. He translated when needed. The meturgan then shouted the message to everyone present.

So what does Mat 10:27 mean.
Imo:
- I = rabbi ===> I = Jesus (via HS)
- You = meturgan ===> you = Bible student

:2c:

The reed and the oak

Matt 11:7 (AKJV)
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say to the multitudes concerning John, What went you out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

The above is  a reference to the parable of the reed and the oak.

The mighty oak with it's strong roots (faith) never bent for the wind (false doctrines/enemies of his belief).
But a really strong storm (enemy) may blow over (death) the oak (believer).
---> The oak fights to the bitter end to defend his belief.

The reed has a totally opposite tactic. It bends by the slightest breeze of wind. A next to useless believer.

So John was a mighty oak that rather dies than bend for false doctrine.

:2c:

I'm intrigued White Wings.  What are the four angels holding? Is it the same kind of thing? A covering?

Colleen below a quote from a "wedding article"I'm working on. I hope it at least answers part of your question. I want to point out if that the conclusion below can only be drawn from Hebrew. And therefore for me it's another bit of proof of Hebraic thought in the NT.

The angels in Rev 7:1 are restraining the wind. English and Greek give the impression it's just regular wind, but actually it's a Hebrew idiom meaning God holding back His blessing on the harvests as shown in Deut 28 and 29. The Holy Spirit is also called wind. So this verse tells us God is retracting His blessings. The land isn't harmed by actively destroying is with storm/wind but by letting evil run its cause by removing the blessing. So God punishes by doing nothing. The Holy Spirit that always worked for the benefit of man is restrained from benefitting man. One less opponent for satan. There is just one Holy Spirit but the verse is about four winds. The corners (seem to) refer to the 'tanaf'; the corners of a prayer shawl.  Those corners had special tassels on them that were symbolic of God/God's authority. God and the Holy Spirit are very closely linked so that's the reason one Holy Spirit is called four winds. To take this one step further; when the angles are holding the four tassels they are holding the prayer shawl as a covering over the earth. A covering refers to covenant. The shawl is also called wings.

Mal 4:2 But to you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!

Restraining the winds doesn't mean God also stops blessing the righteous people. It's a punishment for sinners. God no longer covers their sins with grace. Things are getting serious now. Many got the message and turned to God as the verse below shows. There is always time to repent. God's goal isn't to destroy but to chance upon chance to repent...

Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribula-tion, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

God often covers several people because of the righteousness of one. A good example of that is Sodom and Gomorrah. God was asked to spare the cities if a few righteous people lived in those cities. God agreed. God covered Egypt because Joseph people lived there too. But when God finally decided to stop covering, withhold blessing, restrain the four winds God provided personal instead of nationwide covering. And that's what's happening in this revelation verse. God is replacing the world-wide covering with a more personal version. So, once again, God doesn't cause all terrors found in Revelations, He merely stops shielding us from harm.

A Jewish couple stated their marriage vows/blessing under a Chuppah (https://www.google.nl/search?q=chuppah&num=100&safe=off&rlz=1C1FLDB_enNL518NL518&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=emQgUs2pBKOI0AXi0YCoAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1210&bih=1089)

The Chuppah comes in many forms and shapes. But the only thing about it that really matters is the covering cloth.
So sometimes 4 groomsmen held a prayer shawl over the heads of the couple.

So...imo...that means God is giving the people that still rebel a hard time by withholding His blessings but at the same time providing shelter for the bride.

Fact or fiction? It's a nice thought  :winkgrin:

Defintely a nice thought, and I think- a true one.

 :thumbsup:  finish that article up WW,I can't hardly wait to read it!!!! :dsunny:

http://www.k4communications.com/messianic/index.html

Just a site I want to share.

Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2011, 06:39:25 AM
I didn't realize Augustine had made this specific argument 1500+ years ago;

"Is it not folly to assume that eternal punishment signifies a fire lasting a long time, while believing that eternal life is life without end? For Christ, in the very same passage, included both punishment and life in one and the same sentence when he said, "So those people will go into eternal punishment, while the righteous will go into eternal life" (Matt 25:46) If both are "eternal," it follows necessarily that either both are to be taken as long lasting but finite, or both as endless and perpetual. The phrases "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are parallel and it would be absurd to use them in one and the same sentence to mean "Eternal life will be infinite, while eternal punishment will have an end " Hence, because the eternal life of the saints will be endless, the eternal punishment also, for those condemned to it, will assuredly have no end."

St. Augustine, City of God

Got the above from a quite interesting site.  The guy's not a universalist, but has some pretty interesting thoughts;

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/

So it seems Augustine is not justifying "eternal punishment" based on its Greek translation, and in fact, he is actually challenging the Greeks on their translation which they held for the last several centuries before Augustine. Is that about right?

I think he did justify ET with it.
Imo he simply states the words to describe the duration of punishment and life are the same. If one in everlasting the other one is everlasting too.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pnazHFAoMPI/TdNUEoj3yyI/AAAAAAAAADo/ZlEz3hTGo5g/s1600/passover-lamb.jpg)

"An Ancient Way of Cooking the Lamb" - it just gets more and more clear, once we set foot on the path!

Traditional translations of 1 Corinthians 7.1 suggest to the reader that the words "It is good for a man not to touch a woman" (KJV) are Paul's words of advice to the Corinthians. Many recent translations, however, correctly indicate that Paul is here quoting words from a letter written to him from the Corinthians. The Greek words peri de ("now concerning") here and in 8.1; 12.1; 16.1, and 16.12 introduce a new topic that has been raised in a letter from Corinth. The words translated "to touch" are a euphemism for "to have sexual relations." The following translation in REB is recommended as a model for other languages: "Now for the matters you wrote about. You say, 'It is a good thing for a man not to have intercourse with a woman.'"

WW, do you see that unseen letter as an indication of Gnostic asceticism trying to creep in?

Maybe not purposely. When learning something new know things are often used a reference point. I've never seen the letter so I don't known if they politely asked Paul or tried to convince him of their views.

I think it's important to know when pagan stuff is used as a reference point. We have seen that in various places like Hades which is pure Greek mythology.
But also the reference to elements in Gal 4:3,9 and 2 Pet 3:10,12 is pagan.
To be clear mocking pagan stuff. For example many see the elements burning up as a nuclear war. But in Greek mythology it's "end of the age of the gods". Or more general the core of a 1000 and 1 Greek philosophies.

http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Lake/Elements.html

"To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna."

The hidden manna is symbolic for Jesus Christ, which you'll see in a moment, and it refers to the 'Afikomen' tradition at the Passover Seder meal that is still practiced to this day. The tradition goes something like this;

1) The leader of the Seder, generally the father, would open a linen bag with three unleavened bread wafers in it called 'matzah'.
2) He would remove the middle matzah and break it in half. 
3) He would wrap the broken matzah in linen and hide it in the house during the course of the meal. This of course brings with it the imagery of the 'hidden manna', since this wafer (representing manna) would be hid-den.
4) After the meal, the children would be turned loose to find this hidden manna (the 'Afikomen').
5) The one that found the Afikomen would receive a reward.
6) The 'middle matzah' or 'hidden manna' would then be shared with every member of the family.

Naturally we can see the crucifixion of the Lord in this tradition, along with our promised salvation. The wafer represents the Lord who was broken, wrapped in linen, and hidden away in a tomb. And those who 'find' the Lord are rewarded with eternal life, a reality that will be shared by the entire Jewish family when "all Israel will be saved" in the last days.

EKKLESIA:
The word Greek ekklesia, often translated as church, and Hebrew synagogue both mean 'assembly'. The Hebrew B'rit Chadashah (NT), which uses the word haKeneset, which also refers to an assembly such as we would find in the synagogue. This word comes from the same roots that form 'haKnesset', the word used to describe the Congress (assembly) of Israel. This is where it gets quite interesting, because several other Hebrew words created from this same root have some very interesting implications for the Church;

HaKeneset = Synagogue or Assembly
Keneseeyah = Church
Keneeyah = Purchase Contract
Keneesah = Right of Entry

Notice how each of these words, formed from the same root, describe our salvation.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2013, 09:20:40 AM
"To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna."

The hidden manna is symbolic for Jesus Christ, which you'll see in a moment, and it refers to the 'Afikomen' tradition at the Passover Seder meal that is still practiced to this day. The tradition goes something like this;

1) The leader of the Seder, generally the father, would open a linen bag with three unleavened bread wafers in it called 'matzah'.
2) He would remove the middle matzah and break it in half. 
3) He would wrap the broken matzah in linen and hide it in the house during the course of the meal. This of course brings with it the imagery of the 'hidden manna', since this wafer (representing manna) would be hid-den.
4) After the meal, the children would be turned loose to find this hidden manna (the 'Afikomen').
5) The one that found the Afikomen would receive a reward.
6) The 'middle matzah' or 'hidden manna' would then be shared with every member of the family.

Naturally we can see the crucifixion of the Lord in this tradition, along with our promised salvation. The wafer represents the Lord who was broken, wrapped in linen, and hidden away in a tomb. And those who 'find' the Lord are rewarded with eternal life, a reality that will be shared by the entire Jewish family when "all Israel will be saved" in the last days.

A wonderful post. Thanks ww

I would assume that the father would give hints or clues to the children.
If the hidden manna was not found in a timely manner.

I don't know but would assume so. Just like present day parents hiding easter eggs. They are always hidden in  ways they can be found. If the kids are young they are hidden in very visible places. The ancient Jewish house often had a single room.
Only the ET Jews would hide it in a vault in a hidden room  :laughing7:

What amazes me more if that the customs of the Jews fit so well with lots of things of God's Plan. Many, like this one, aren't found in the OT.
Would it be an example of: Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 02, 2013, 08:21:18 PM
I don't know but would assume so. Just like present day parents hiding easter eggs. They are always hidden in  ways they can be found. If the kids are young they are hidden in very visible places. The ancient Jewish house often had a single room.
Only the ET Jews would hide it in a vault in a hidden room  :laughing7:

What amazes me more if that the customs of the Jews fit so well with lots of things of God's Plan. Many, like this one, aren't found in the OT.
Would it be an example of: Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

Well spoken WW.


I for one have so many fond memories of Christmas and Easter. As a child the anticipation was almost too much. My mom would make a big deal out of giving and made sure I always had presents to give. I would help pick them out and wrap them and even sign the cards as best I could. Christmas was a magical time, singing Christmas songs at the Lutheran school I attended. Oh sure it was great to open presents, but it was a lot of fun watching others open theirs too.


I know many deny their children Christmas, for many reasons. Secular, sure but what isn't these days. I would venture to guess, those that complain most could be the most secular of all.


As you quoted WW:  Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.


No parent can lead a child where Father cannot find. There is much goodness, kindness; among other things that can benefit a child greatly through most of the secular holidays. Even Thanksgiving:  just because the true meaning is glossed over through commercialism, does not mean that any Spirit driven parent cannot bring the real meaning out and celebrate giving Thanks.


I would hate to think that any here are making an idol out of any of these holidays. Those that have yet blind hearts will have a better chance of seeing an alternate "spiritual" point of view, if one is given. Staying home, doing nothing is not a lot different than burying the silver.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: JulieTangI would hate to think that any here are making an idol out of any of these holidays. Those that have yet blind hearts will have a better chance of seeing an alternate "spiritual" point of view, if one is given. Staying home, doing nothing is not a lot different than burying the silver.

I totally agree. It's important to know what an idol really is. It's an earthly replacement for God, whether a gold calf, money itself, or the biggest idol of all: SELF, that is pride. Without those characteristics, there is no idol. That's why I believe it's fine to celebrate the holidays, as long as you put them in their own place. It goes to the intention. If you know you aren't placing the day above another, as if to downgrade God's importance on any other ordinary day, then celebrating holidays is not defiling you. It's always what proceeds from the heart that defiles a man.

Quote from: Seth on December 03, 2013, 12:26:16 AM

Quote from: JulieTangI would hate to think that any here are making an idol out of any of these holidays. Those that have yet blind hearts will have a better chance of seeing an alternate "spiritual" point of view, if one is given. Staying home, doing nothing is not a lot different than burying the silver.

I totally agree. It's important to know what an idol really is. It's an earthly replacement for God, whether a gold calf, money itself, or the biggest idol of all: SELF, that is pride. Without those characteristics, there is no idol. That's why I believe it's fine to celebrate the holidays, as long as you put them in their own place. It goes to the intention. If you know you aren't placing the day above another, as if to downgrade God's importance on any other ordinary day, then celebrating holidays is not defiling you. It's always what proceeds from the heart that defiles a man.

Seth I just read a few verses that disagree with your personal opinion.
Jer 10:1-5
1 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

So here Yahweh says Don't do it. Don't bring the tree inside the house and decorate it with gold and silver balls. Maybe what Yahweh means here is go ahead and enjoy the pagan holy days but just don't bring the tree inside and decorate it. Or maybe Yahweh is saying don't even acknowledge the pagan holy days because they are evil. I believe if something is evil we are required to not participate in it. The problem here is when Christians begin to think they know more than Yahweh does about the effects of participation in evil.

Gal 3:23-24 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law (Torah), kept for the faith that would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.

Most Bibles translate the  Greek word paidogogous as tutor or schoolmaster, but the real meaning is a little different.

Among the Greeks and Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 472

It is finished.

Those few words have a lot of (hidden) meanings.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished.
When the last Passover lamb was killed the high priest said: "It's finished."


"It is finished" in Greek often is said be a shorthand form of "tetelestai" which was written on legal documents to show a debt was fully paid. While some totally disagree with John 19:30 referencing to that word many assume Jesus was saying He paid our debts of sin on the cross. I agree with that but think there is a second meaning. It was also His payment of the Mohar the bride's price or bride's ransom.

"It is finished" in Hebrew can be seen a play on word to reference to a wedding. He paid the Mohar, bride's price.

The Shabbat in Jewish tradition is compared to a bride. Just as the veil of the bride is removed after the blessings have been recited, so are the Challah "unveiled" after the blessing is recited and the bread is about to be cut. The Challah is three breads braided into a lover's embrace of the couple with God in their relationship. It also represents the first three covenants that merge into one as the ultimate covenant: marriage.

(http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TOH/Images/Photos/37/300x300/exps16804_HWS1227354D128A.jpg)




Finished = Kalah = כלה = pronounced as: kaw-law
Bread = Challah = חלה = pronounced as: khaw-law
Bride = kallâh = כּלּה = pronounced as: kal-law
The above words are pronounce quite similarly.

---

So Jesus said a whole lot of things with His last words. The most important ones can be summarized as:

- I paid for my bride. (Hebrew)
- I paid the debt of sin. (Greek)
- The last Lamb has been sacrificed. (Priestly proclamation)

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

Saul was on the road to Damascus to kill heretical Jews aka Christians. Damascus was a nickname for Qumran, which wasn't in Syria but 15 miles from Jerusalem and 8 miles from Jericho.

Qumran is the place where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.

Awesome! Thanks for sharing that.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 13, 2014, 09:42:22 AM
Gal 3:23-24 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law (Torah), kept for the faith that would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.

Most Bibles translate the  Greek word paidogogous as tutor or schoolmaster, but the real meaning is a little different.

Among the Greeks and Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 472

..I've always translated this word "tutor" as "babysitter"..

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 13, 2014, 09:42:22 AM
The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.

That's interesting. So there was a time when they no longer needed the tutor...

Quote from: Seth on July 12, 2014, 01:24:49 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 13, 2014, 09:42:22 AM
The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.

That's interesting. So there was a time when they no longer needed the tutor...

Thankfully yes. I guard and protect his torah, knowing that that which is in my heart is no outward letter, for the written letter led me to discover the inner reality by means of the faith of Yeshua. While physical Israel observes Shavuot, thankful for the outward giving of Torah, as it approaches later this month I will be observing it as the reality it points to, the Father and Son who live in the human inner man, his very breath (character) as that which finds expression through me.

Ronen

Quote from: gregoryfl on July 12, 2014, 02:28:35 AM
Thankfully yes. I guard and protect his torah, knowing that that which is in my heart is no outward letter, for the written letter led me to discover the inner reality by means of the faith of Yeshua.

Yes, you guard and protect the Torah, but it does not guard or protect you, because, once mature, you leave aside the things of the child, such as the tutor. Jesus, the living Spirit guards and tutors me now.

How would it look if you grew up to manhood, but your tutor kept following you around trying to teach you how to get by, when you already know? Wouldn't you say to the tutor, thank you, but I have grown up now, I can walk and live and work as a man, not a child.

Quote from: Seth on July 12, 2014, 02:34:53 AMYes, you guard and protect the Torah, but it does not guard or protect you, because, once mature, you leave aside the things of the child, such as the tutor. Jesus, the living Spirit guards and tutors me now.

How would it look if you grew up to manhood, but your tutor kept following you around trying to teach you how to get by, when you already know? Wouldn't you say to the tutor, thank you, but I have grown up now, I can walk and live and work as a man, not a child.

I believe it does, but not in the sense I see you writing in.

Since I am no longer under the tutor, yes, that tutor no longer outwardly guards or protects me. What the tutor has taught though, that guards and protects me. You yourself said it, that Yeshua guards and protects, for he is the goal of Torah, just as the goal of a child under a tutor would have been to learn from them and safely reach manhood. Manhood is the goal.

I will use this example from my own life to see if it helps, that you will understand where I am coming from.

I took up a medical assistant trade while in the military. The tutor, my instructor, taught me what I need to know, including how to do my job safely by keeping within the parameters of what I was to do. When I graduated, I was no longer under that tutor, but what he left me stayed on, continuing to guard and protect me (for example, I knew how to dispose of a used needle so as not to stick myself or others). I applied that practice in the way I was taught, and so was guarding and protecting the medical assistant field as well.

So yes, if my tutor followed me around when I was working and trying to continue showing me what to do, I would certainly respond as you did. I left that tutor, but not what the tutor has taught me.

I see it working that way in every situation. We all had parents, who tutored us into adulthood, and even though we are no longer under their tutelage as when children, what they taught us stays with us, guarding and protecting us. As I live according to what they taught me as a child, I am then guarding and protecting my adulthood. That is the sense in which I mean it.

As Paul, who was also no longer under the tutorship of the Torah, I too, rejoice in the Torah according to my inner man, and am a servant of it.

For I rejoice in the Torah of Alaha, in the interior man.
(Rom 7:22)
(Rom 7:26) Now, therefore, in my conscience, I am a servant of the Torah of Alaha; but in my flesh, I am a servant of the law of sin.

That tutor led me to Messiah, and in so doing, also taught me the reality that as long as I try to observe Torah in my flesh, it will only awaken sin within my members to kill me again and again. The Torah does not reside in my flesh, but in my inner man, the heart, conscience.

No, I am not referring to a bunch of do's and don'ts, but of the realities of God's very nature and character, expressed in his Dabar, living within each and every one of us. That is the Torah he said he would place in the heart, which he did when he came to take up residence in us.

Ronen

The only reason a person is no longer under a tutor is because the person behaves like taught.
A tutor keeps a boy from sticking his and in boiling water and the grown man doesn't stick his hands in boiling water.
The lessons of the tutor are now written on his heart.
It simply means the Torah never ever is done away with. We are either forced to follow it (letter) or it has become our nature (heart).
People seem to think/hope the Torah is been done away. For me that's stating that the USA no long has a law and constitution because they are no longer written on paper but now are stored on a DVD.  Different medium, same law.

Quote from: Seth on July 12, 2014, 02:34:53 AM

Quote from: gregoryfl on July 12, 2014, 02:28:35 AM
Thankfully yes. I guard and protect his torah, knowing that that which is in my heart is no outward letter, for the written letter led me to discover the inner reality by means of the faith of Yeshua.

Yes, you guard and protect the Torah, but it does not guard or protect you, because, once mature, you leave aside the things of the child, such as the tutor. Jesus, the living Spirit guards and tutors me now.

How would it look if you grew up to manhood, but your tutor kept following you around trying to teach you how to get by, when you already know? Wouldn't you say to the tutor, thank you, but I have grown up now, I can walk and live and work as a man, not a child.

1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Luk 6:39  And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Luk 6:40  The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

The master of what? Of our sinful nature.

1Jn_5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Jas 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The commandments reflect the nature of sinful man, but have no power to overcome that nature. It is only by faith that can overcome. Overcome what, overcome our sinful nature. And by faith, as James points out, we have the power to live righteously. The just shall live by faith.

Convicted by the law, empowered by faith unto good works.

:2c:

And when a person has faith. Lives fully according to that faith and shows all the good works. (very Jesus like).
Would the person live according to the law or just lives as the law doesn't exist at all? After all the is tutor gone. God's law is in the trash can. Or not?

PS When I write Law I mean God's law. Not man made additions and 'improvements'.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 12, 2014, 05:31:59 PM
And when a person has faith. Lives fully according to that faith and shows all the good works. (very Jesus like).
Would the person live according to the law or just lives as the law doesn't exist at all? After all the is tutor gone. God's law is in the trash can. Or not?

God's law isn't in the trash any more than the tutor is in the trash. But the tutor ceases to be the tutor for the mature man.

Let's take a look at the larger context of the schoolmaster quote"

Galatians 5
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Paul is using a tutor metaphor, but he is using it in his own way. He is not saying that the tutor actually instilled righteousness. If so, then life and righteousness could come by the Law. The Law wasn't teaching righteousness. It was only teaching that we are sinners and in need of salvation.

The righteousness comes by walking according to the Spirit, and how that Grace teaches us to be righteous. This is why Jesus was not under the schoolteacher. He didn't have any sin, and he did not need to be "shut up unto the faith" or concluded under sin. He was already mature.

Quote from: saintwalee on July 12, 2014, 05:15:42 PM
The commandments reflect the nature of sinful man, but have no power to overcome that nature. It is only by faith that can overcome. Overcome what, overcome our sinful nature. And by faith, as James points out, we have the power to live righteously. The just shall live by faith.

Convicted by the law, empowered by faith unto good works.

:2c:

Yes, exactly right. Although I would say that we are empowered by grace which comes by faith:

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The term 'Essene' was acceptable, Professor Black wrote:
provided we do not define Essenism too narrowly, for instance, by equating it exclusively with the Dead Sea group, but are prepared to understand the term as a general description of this widespread movement of anti-Jerusalem, anti-Pharisaic non-conformity of the period. It is from such an 'Essene-type' of Judaism that Christianity is descended.


Christians = Nazorean = Jessaeans = widespread movement of anti-Jerusalem, anti-Pharisaic non-conformity'.

The Qumran community referred to themselves was 'Keepers of the Covenant' = 'Nozrei ha-Brit'. From this term derives the word 'Nozrim' one of the earliest Hebrew designations for the sect subsequently known as 'Christians'.

The modern Arabic word for Christians, 'Nasrani', derives from the same source. So, too, does the word 'Nazorean' or 'Nazarene', which, of course, was the name by which the 'early Christians' referred to themselves in both the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles.

Contrary to the assumptions of later tradition, it has nothing whatever to do with Jesus' alleged upbringing in Nazareth, which, the evidence (or lack of it) suggests, did not even exist at the time. Indeed, it seems to have been the very perplexity of early commentators encountering the unfamiliar term 'Nazorean' that led them to conclude Jesus' family came from Nazareth, which by then had appeared on the map.

Dietary advice in Daniel (?)



Daniel 1:12-15New International Version (NIV)

12 "Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. 13 Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see." 14 So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.

15 At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+1:12-15

Pig, I was reviewing much the same information on the www yesterday.  Fascinating stuff!  The thing goes much wider, however.  Did you know, for instance, that the story of Genesis (up to the tower of Babel) is encoded in the written Chinese language?  It's laid out in a book titled The Discovery of Genesis.  God put out the trail of breadcrumbs - it's up to us to find it.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2011, 08:50:39 AM
The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters....
Meaning of Hebrew letters: http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/hebrewmystery.html

I used to chat frequently with a rabbi. I asked him how I could pay him for his time since it was his livelihood.  He suggested that I take some of his classes. However he insisted that I could not talk Christian stuff in class, since everyone else was Jewish.  I quickly learned that what they say to each other is different than what they say to non-Jews.

The rabbis teach that God has a triune nature. They have an eschatological character called Adam Kadmon who is both God and man with the mission to reveal God to man. And the Hebrew alefbet actually has vowels. They do not use modern vowel pointing.

One thing that caught my attention was that they said the meaning of Hebrew words derived from the combined metaphor of the the meaning of each letter. The table offered here does not accomplish that. They could not refer me to a  list of meaning that did accomplish that.  In fact, they tell us that the smallest unit of meaning is the three letter sub-root, when in fact they believe that the individual strokes which form letters have meaning.

I have spent the last 15 years... nearly 20,000 hours, reverse engineering the language based on their claim. I first flushed out the two-letter sub-roots they call gates, and then the single letter meaning, and then the strokes. I am currently building the dictionary back up using the strokes, the letters and the sub-roots.  The modern vowels serve only to hide Christ in the scripture.

The meaning that I have assigned to them is validated by the NT authors, by the order of the alefbet, and by outside sources such as the Gospel of Thomas (GOT), and the Sefir Yetzirah (SY).

Scholars think that GOT is Gnostic. It is not. It is a book of riddles which teach how to read the riddles of the scriptures. It is not scripture. It is a book about scripture.

The Sephir Yetsirah is used by Kabbalists as an occult book. It is not. It is like a grammar.
It teaches how to form words from letters.  The Kabbala was invented to distract Jews from seeing Christ in their scripture.

Any way, here it the alefbet as the NT authors used it: The brief summary meaning is the primary metaphor of the letter, but the metaphor can be expressed using other word/symbols. I'll be happy to explain that sometime.

Letter    The secret of the alefbet
read down this column
blank page   God is
א    God created the heavens and the earth
ב    He revealed to man that
ג    He pursued them with a
ד    Declared word
ה    which they heard
ו    and it distinguished them
ז    as the bride
ח    when they understood
ט    they became the bride
י    a new creation
כ    The Son of God
ל    taught
מ    the promise of the Father
נ    The Son of Man
ס    fulfilled the promise by his person
ע    reconciling holiness and grace at the end of his life by being made to be sin
פ    He spoke of heaven through examples of earth (riddle, parable)
צ    holiness and grace were reconciled in his flesh
ק    The Son of God died
ר    revealing (in his person)
ש    that his word does not return void (obtained a bride)
ת    He completed his work resulting in a new life spontaneously responding to him
ך    The Son of God died (separated from the Father)
ם    and finished his declared works (completed the covenant)
ן    The son of man died (He was restored to his heavenly glory)
ף    The prophet died (Prophecy is fulfilled)
ץ    The judge died (Judgement is finished)
shin-4    He is the king (Ruling in and over all flesh). (and that of which the prophets could not speak)

Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 15, 2015, 03:48:11 PM
Pig, I was reviewing much the same information on the www yesterday.  Fascinating stuff!  The thing goes much wider, however.  Did you know, for instance, that the story of Genesis (up to the tower of Babel) is encoded in the written Chinese language?  It's laid out in a book titled The Discovery of Genesis.  God put out the trail of breadcrumbs - it's up to us to find it.

Hi. I messed up my post so the one that was before yours is deleted and now follows yours. 
Yeah, Don Richardson suggests that the narratives up to the tower are contained in the verbal records of all ancient cultures.

P.J. Wiseman presents evidence that Genesis was written by eye witnesses and that Moses or someone in Pharaoh's library transcribed it from clay tablets on to papyrus.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2011, 01:02:58 AM

b] Jesus never taught about LoF to the public. Revelation was written decades after His death.

The thing that catches my attention is that Revelation is the most symbolic book of the Bible, yet modern theologians insist on interpreting it literally... except of course, things like a literal garbage dump, which takes on a symbolic meaning.

I have found Revelation to be a recapitulation of the story of the cross (using the symbols defined elsewhere in the Bible), rather than an eschatological work.  It is like the Rosetta stone of Biblical symbolism. 

It suggests that in spiritual history, the middle is the end (it was finished at the cross) and the first is like the last, and the last like the first.  Everything prior to the cross points forward to it, and everything after the cross points back to it. 

https://lumina.bible.org/bible/Genesis+1
Nice Bible site with lots of commentary.

 :thumbsup:

yes !...isn't that wonderful...ALL humanity  will ultimately confess, voluntarily from their heart, to the glory of God (because sincere confession from the heart is the only kind that glorifies God ), that Jesus is LORD !.

Quote from: Aleax on October 04, 2011, 11:47:08 PM
Random thought of the day...

We are often accused of not having scriptural proof of certain UR events happening, for instance anyone leaving the lake of fire. However, if UR was a given for the first Christians, there simply was no need for a such verse since everyone knew all the punished ones would get out, eventually.

Let's imagine that a part of a school class pulls off some illegal stunt, for example smearing the restroom walls with graffiti. Before the last class on Friday the teacher asks the class who were involved. The guilty students come forth and confess. They are given two hours detention. If I were to write a report of what took place, as an outside observer, I might quite possibly conclude with "the ones found not guilty were allowed to leave for the weekend, but the ones found guilty were made to stay for detention. The end." There would not be any need to further state "But after the ones found guilty had done their punishment they were allowed to leave, too. No-one was forced to stay at school until Monday morning. I repeat, ultimately everyone got to go home."

true that !..altho theres implicit evidence of ppl leaving the l.of fire