God Bless their Little BBQed Hearts

[Gary Amirault]

Quote:
You know, about 4 or 5 years ago, I was getting ready for a nice party at my Karate school.  Just before starting the party, which by the way, was very quiet and pleasant, I had to run down to the local grocery store... beside that store is a bar.  They were having a party there too.  There was fighting outside and in, as usual... people were beating each other, doing drugs, crawling on the floor, performing oral sex in the wash rooms etc...  That to me is hell... those folks were not forced to go there, they chose it.  So too those in Hell... They have made their choice and we should not be trying to convince ourselves that they do no deserve it.  God's character is Holy and He would never force those in Hell to change... If they don't want to behave, if they do not want to accept Christ, then God bless their little BBQed hearts.

Gary: The above quote came from a man who knows the teaching of universal salvation quite well. But he is presently a staunch Calvinist. Carefully, thoughtfully and prayerfully construct an answer to this man's comment.

[Beloved Servant]

Ephesians 5:12 (Weymouth)

for the things which are done by these people in secret it is disgraceful even to speak of.

[WhiteWings]

Calvinists believe God elected people for heaven and the others for hell.
In that line of thinking I would say God didn't elect the people in that bar for heaven. Unless He wants sinners in Heaven.
Meaning God already destined all of them to hell. So how is it that the people in the bar choose hell?

That Calvinist seems to have a very Armenistic (sp?) view.

[shawn]

Were we not all in this shape?  Were we not ALL born into slavery?  Only God can regenerate and give power to repent.  According to Calvinist thinking this is predestined.  God carefully crafted objects headed for destruction to show his mercy to objects of his mercy.  Where is the choice in that?  If he is a true Calvinist, then he must see some injustice in that line of thinking.  People born into slavery by no choice of their own being forced in sharing the same fate as satan?  That makes little sense to me.

I understand Calvinism.  I believe it lines up best with scripture.  With that said, it can only make sense if ED or UR are the results of judgment (and it lines up best with UR).  ET takes Calvinist thinking and states God predestined men to burn for eternity in hellfire by no real choice of their own.  They were merely created to suffer eternally.  That breaks with God who loves agape and makes no reasonable sense.

[shawn]

Calvinists believe God elected people for heaven and the others for hell.
In that line of thinking I would say God didn't elect the people in that bar for heaven.
Meaning God already destined all of them to hell. So how is it that the people in the bar choose hell?

That Calvinist seems to have a very Armenistic (sp?) view.

Agreed.  Calvinists basically say people were created for their purpose which is to be eternally tortured.  There is no choice.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Quote:
You know, about 4 or 5 years ago, I was getting ready for a nice party at my Karate school.  Just before starting the party, which by the way, was very quiet and pleasant, I had to run down to the local grocery store... beside that store is a bar.  They were having a party there too.  There was fighting outside and in, as usual... people were beating each other, doing drugs, crawling on the floor, performing oral sex in the wash rooms etc...  That to me is hell... those folks were not forced to go there, they chose it.  So too those in Hell... They have made their choice and we should not be trying to convince ourselves that they do no deserve it.  God's character is Holy and He would never force those in Hell to change... If they don't want to behave, if they do not want to accept Christ, then God bless their little BBQed hearts.

Gary: The above quote came from a man who knows the teaching of universal salvation quite well. But he is presently a staunch Calvinist. Carefully, thoughtfully and prayerfully construct an answer to this man's comment.

I certainly know how the writer of this note feels, but I also was one of those who lived a life that by analogy is used by the writer.

The fundamental error with this mindset is that God never calls us to be like this.

To me the issue here is not about which doctrine is correct, it is if any doctrine allows us to take such a flippant attitude towards anyone.

I do not see Christian Universalism nor the belief that hell is eternal allowing any believer to talk about the lost in such a manner.

We all will struggle living up to the following verses.  I think a persom must be careful as to what mindset they can get locked into. If not obeying God is choosing to go to hell, then I do not see this person living up to the verses below no matter how he wants to work it out in his mind.

This is not stated in a self righteous manner, I know that I do not really live up to it either. I don't know anyone who does in reality, saying that we do is easy. Living up to it is much harder. 





Lk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.

Lk 6:27 . But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

[ded2daworld]

and to add to Paul's comment, "what you do for the least of these, you do for me."
Whoever God used to lead that man to Christ did not have the same attitude as the man passing by the bar smug in his salvation. He may as well have been the pharisee saying, "I thank thee Lord that I'm not a sinner like the man standing next to me."

[Quaesitor]

When Jesus walked the earth in flesh, he entered those places and told these people stories about how God had not forgot about them and that the Father is anxiously waiting for these sons and daughters to come back to the house where He will run to them in love and compassion.

If we love like the Father loves, we should be crying when witnessing such sufferings as these, not feel contempt like this man does.

1 Cor. 13 is a good start to learn how little we know of LOVE.

[eaglesway]

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
(1Ti 1:12-17)


Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
(Col 1:12-21)


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
(Gen 1:1-3)

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
(Joh 1:3-5)

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
(2Co 4:3-7)

I am so thankful, that when I was lost, and the wages of sin were ravaging my soul, and there was no one, anywhere, who could save me from the black hole I was fallen into, the Lord Jesus Christ revealed Himself to me as the Crucified, and as the LORD. What did it matter to me whether I was predestined, or whether I was choosing Him who I had not known. I found help....or rather, help found me. Lord Jesus, for everyone in that bar, and for every man who thinks he knows something but really knows nothing.... reveal yourself. Let there be LIGHT! Tear away the veil that covers all the peoples! Hasten the revelation of the sons of God and set your creation free from futility, into the Glorious Liberty of your children!

If this gentleman is a Calvinist, so be it.... let him acknowledge though, that the word teaches that the WHOLE CREATION will be set free. That EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW. Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW. Let him go back to Romans 8 and see the ultimate purpose of predestination.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. (Rom 8:20-22)

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
(Rom 8:29)


Lord, let this futility become a new creation. LET THERE BE LIGHT! Let that which is presently without form and void be transformed into the image of God. Let LIGHT SHINE OUT OF DARKNESS. O God, let us become the fuel for the flame that shines from your eyes, enlightening everyone who comes into the world. Let us be consumed with love, a simple compassion that reaches out and touches the leper to reconcile, cleanse and restore!. Lord Jesus, Come Quickly.

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:18-19)



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus spoke to them in parables so they cannot see, whose hearts are unchanged, who have not the love of God. That's why it is called The Mystery.

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 
(Eph 1:8-10)

[PaoloNuevo]

Thanks for your post Eagles!

Merry Christmas,

oh by the way, what translation renders Eph. 1: 9 - 10 as "summing up of all things in Christ"... I like it that way!  :bigGrin:

[eaglesway]

YW Paolo   :thumbsup:

[waitinontheLamb]

I think the man is actually right. God will not force someone out of their lifestyle. But why does that automatically equate with burning them forever? Does this man's concept of the holiness and wonder of God fall so very short as to say that someone, who may be the chief of sinners, (Paul, or hey, someone in a bar) when coming into an encounter with His holiness and love, will not fall on their knees and longingly come home to Him? That seems like a weak concept of God, and a lack of the love of Christ for those still in sin. Neither of which are great fruits to have.

[thinktank]

This is where faith in God comes in, how can God save all man, without interfering with their will?

The disciples also had the same concerns

"who then can be saved?"

"With God all things are possible" Jesus

[shawn]

This is where faith in God comes in, how can God save all man, without interfering with their will?

The disciples also had the same concerns

"who then can be saved?"

"With God all things are possible" Jesus

This is one of my favorite sections of the Bible.  He was explaining the difficulty in coming into the Kingdom of God for a rich man.

MK 10:23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

MK 10:24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it isn to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
MK 10:26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

MK 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

This section has always given me much hope.

[legoman]

Calvinists believe God elected people for heaven and the others for hell.
In that line of thinking I would say God didn't elect the people in that bar for heaven.
Meaning God already destined all of them to hell. So how is it that the people in the bar choose hell?

That Calvinist seems to have a very Armenistic (sp?) view.

Agreed.  Calvinists basically say people were created for their purpose which is to be eternally tortured.  There is no choice.

Yes that is the reasonable conclusion of Calvinism.

What's funny though (funny strange) is that many Calvinists say God doesn't choose anyone to hell.  God simply picks a few to be saved, and leaves the rest to wallow in their own "choice" - they wanted to go to that bar - they wanted to go to hell - God just let them do it.

This is a sort of backwards sovereignty.  The obvious logical problem is that if one can only be saved by God choosing them, then implicitly one is only damned by God NOT choosing them.  Trying to get a Calvinist to acknowledge this is  difficult.  You will here protests of "I am not a hyper-calvinist".

LOL.  Good luck...

[Nathan]

This is where faith in God comes in, how can God save all man, without interfering with their will?

The disciples also had the same concerns

"who then can be saved?"

"With God all things are possible" Jesus

This is one of my favorite sections of the Bible.  He was explaining the difficulty in coming into the Kingdom of God for a rich man.

MK 10:23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

MK 10:24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it isn to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
MK 10:26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

MK 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

This section has always given me much hope.

I'm not sure what exactly you're eluding to here . . .are you saying it gives you much hope because you're far from rich?  I thought I'd reach a little further back and pull up the context that lead to the camel through an eye needle statement . . .

Matthew 19
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"    17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.    Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"  20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"  21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.  23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I'm not so sure this man was all that honest about his questioning.  It feels like what he was really looking for was for Jesus to stroke his ego.  In his eyes, he'd met all the requirements to be a great follower of Christ.  He was pretty self-disciplined in following the law and felt he'd accomplished his goals . . .was he really looking to truly be Christ as Jesus was calling his disciples to be?  Because for me, it would seem rather than walk away sad, he would have willingly done what Jesus was asking.  It doesn't sound like he was looking to be a giver as much as he was looking to be more of a reciever.  But that's not the nature of who Christ is.

So . . .give away your wealth . .again, is this story a depiction of the fact that all wealthy people are much less likely to be Christians than poor people?

I think . .again . . many here on this forum can truly relate to this story in their own lives.  How many of us have had to give up relationships, church families, ministries, friends, brothers and sisters . .on and on  . . how many of us have had to give our wealth of relationships away once we received this truth of where we currently stand in Christ today?  And that's just dealing with UR issues.

To go the next step in dimensions, how many of us have a wealth of knowledge, schooling, teachings, sermons . . .on and on . . .we have a wealth of accumulated knowledge wtihin us that we begin feeling pretty good about ourselves until someone comes along with a totally different perspective of Christ.  A dimensional picture, a different realm of thinking.  The kingdom of God requires faith to enter and nothing else can assist.  What if the very thing you cherish the most was the same thing that God asked for you to release yourself from.  A belief system, a doctrine, a comfort zone . . .I think that's really what this story is about. 

It's not about having a lot of money.  It's about becoming overly confident in the accumulation of things in us that we've earned through much study, much labor, time, effort, thought . . .on the outside we may give off the impression that we're humble, but perhaps inwardly, we're self-satisfying ourselves in thinking we're doing okay with our relationship with the Father . . .we've accomplished pretty much everything we set out to do doctrinally . . .I think "those" are the riches that we all have inwardly on one level or another that God is calling us to give up, to lay it all down . .not so that we'll live life empty handed, but that we'll then be enabled to harvest the bounty that awaits those who are willing to become totally transformed in every aspect of their lives.

Rather than walk away sad that we can't give up all that we've accumulated, we can count it all as dung and offer it up as a living sacrifice unto the Father of Lights.

Just a thought is all.  Just a long-winded thought.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree Nate.....it's about trying the motive of the heart, too.......for instance, I had a friend who HATED to eat, she had to make herself, she wished there was a pill she could take and be done for the day. So when she wanted to fast out of obedience to her understanding of the Word at that time, He told her that for HER, it would not be a sacrifice, so He told her TO EAT, and what to eat, and He counted THAT to her righteousness/obedience.

We lay down whatever He tells us to, and because we're all different, the "tests" are tailored to US. As many as are led by the SPIRIT of God, they are the sons of God. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

Calvinists believe God elected people for heaven and the others for hell.
In that line of thinking I would say God didn't elect the people in that bar for heaven.
Meaning God already destined all of them to hell. So how is it that the people in the bar choose hell?

That Calvinist seems to have a very Armenistic (sp?) view.

Agreed.  Calvinists basically say people were created for their purpose which is to be eternally tortured.  There is no choice.

Yes that is the reasonable conclusion of Calvinism.

What's funny though (funny strange) is that many Calvinists say God doesn't choose anyone to hell.  God simply picks a few to be saved, and leaves the rest to wallow in their own "choice" - they wanted to go to that bar - they wanted to go to hell - God just let them do it.

This is a sort of backwards sovereignty.  The obvious logical problem is that if one can only be saved by God choosing them, then implicitly one is only damned by God NOT choosing them.  Trying to get a Calvinist to acknowledge this is  difficult.  You will here protests of "I am not a hyper-calvinist".

LOL.  Good luck...

I know that kind of logic. It simply can't be refuted. I would just have made the best of the situation by trying to let it escalate a a tiny little bit. I'm looking for Jesus in a bar because Jesus was often accused being a drunk (wine bibbler) :laughing7:

Their logic: Everybody is born a sinner. Sinners like doing their own ungodly stuff. Thereby they are chosing hell. However God chose a few sinners and stopped them from sinning. That's why they can enter heaven. So basicly sinners go were they want. Calvinists liked going to hell too before God chose them to be saved.

The reality is that there is laughter and light inside the bar. Outside the bar there is darkness and gnashing of teeth :icon_jokercolor:

[eaglesway]

What a great plan. God creates billions of beings- angels who will fall, humans who will fall- to become these sinners who will burn forever. He selects a few (few are chosen) because they will all be incredibly grateful because they know the odds that they would be chosen were infitely small. He then sifts the few so that he can throw a few more into the eternal torment of the sinners because mostly all burning forever is not enough for Him, this God of perfect love who sent His only begotten son to be crucified(If I be lifted up I will draw a few folks to me). If this is the plan of this Calvinist god who causes "all things to work according to the counsel of His will"- then he is not someone I want to know really- I guess I will take my stand among the heretics and burn here and now ;o)