The great falling away, the itching of Ears, truth getting revealed. Many claim that we are in the Great Falling away due to the rise of more New age Philosophy, and backing away from traditional Christian theology. I think the Great falling away and the itching of ears occurred along time ago. How about the Whore of Babylon? The Antichrist? Identification of the rise of the Eternal Torment Churches, the future of Universalist Christianity? Any thoughts?
Again, I honesty tell you the truth, KingdomBibleStudies.org.
Asking questions is a leap of faith.
Receiving the answer is the Grace of God.
Truth becomes known, when deception falls away; self-induced blindness.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive: For the people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:14-15)
The people draw close to me with their mouths, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. In vain they do worship, teaching the doctrines and commandments of men. (Matthew 15:8-9)
Colossians 2
For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Tentmaker, and for all those who have not personally seen my face, that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day – things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" (which all refer to things destined to perish with use) – in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement, and severe treatment of the body; but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
The presence of a veil, makes a wedding seem like a funeral.
I think the falling away already occured. You could say it started back in 70AD and is still going on.
CHB
I wholly agree. I think you'll find the literal fulfillment in writings such as Josephus who was documenting the events leading up to, through, and after 70 A.D. with the slaughtering of a nation as well as it's belief system.
For me, those claiming the new age is the evidence are the same who have ears but can not hear. But I digress . . . Scripture is always abused by others (I was just leaning toward that just now) by assuming scripture is written about others. It's not. It's written "to" me, "for" me and "in" me. The falling away in me is my carnal thinking mind which then exposes the light of the Spirit in me.
The Whore of Babylon? The Antichrist? They are one and the same, they are all different perspectives of the operation of the mind of man . .within every one of us. Identification of the rise of the Eternal Torment Churches, the future of Universalist Christianity. Interesting choice of words because that's just what religion does. It emphasizes the identity to a doctrine or belief rather than submitting to the identity of Christ in us, the hope of glory.
I think that's the reason why Israel lost their identity as a nation. Because they embraced their identity based on their religiou efforts to maintain their righteousness. But Jesus came with a new identity of grace and mercy, love and rest. And they rejected all of it. As a result of rejecting his identity, they lost theirs. And for the record. I don't believe the temple is going to ever be rebuilt. I don't believe the animal sacrifices are ever going to start up again . . .everything the religious believers are longing for to manifest on their terms is going to greatly decieve them in to waiting for something to come in this realm that has already happened not only in this realm, but also in the spirit realm.
Until the veil is removed from their minds, there will be no maturity in Christ. Instead, just a lot of people growing old in their churches. Until the veil is removed from my own mind, my heart can not respond to the call of the deep either. It's all about yielding my mind to his order of life. It's not about hanging on and digging in. It's about letting go and not worrying about the landing . . .faith is knowing the Father will never drop you once you take flight.
Thank you Universal Catholic for yet another great question.
Thank you Nathan for bringing up something I've been musing over lately.
Thinking about the many traditional churches that speculate on the Abomination of Desolation, etc, it has come to my mind repeatedly that the traditional church model (in the system I've spent 20 years in) plays out something like this:
Bear with me for my oversimplistic wording:
1. God starts a "new work"
2. God "calls a man" to become a pastor
3. A fellowship begins in a home, rented building, etc, everyone gets excited and
buys into the "vision"
4. That fellowship builds in "numbers"
5. During the initial years, that pastor seems genuine, loving, etc and seems to
have all the answers to everyone's needs
6. That pastor gains favor and in some cases, all out loyalty from the fellowship
7. God is perceived as endorsing the work, opening doors, annointing, etc
8. The pastor and fellowship begin the process of attaining a building
9. The building is built, the church is established and has gained it's own
sovreignty (at least from a civil/legal perspective)
10 The pastor has a dedication of the building
11 Suddenly, the pastor becomes an unaccountable ruler of that church/fellowship
12 Suddenly, that pastor begins to rule with an iron fist
13 Those in the fellowship who see this and question that pastor are now
marginalized, ostracized and eventually cast out as being divisive, or
a malcontent
14 In every case I've seen, the church continues to grow in population, finances
and prominence/fame
Doens't this sound like a mini-rebuilt temple, mini-antichrist, mini-model of the Abomination of Desolation?
Maybe I'm going to extremes?
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2010, 04:32:53 AM
The Whore of Babylon? The Antichrist? They are one and the same, they are all different perspectives of the operation of the mind of man . .within every one of us.
The 'Whore of Babylon' is referring to Jerusalem and the Isrealites falling away from God. Moses is even warned about it when he was about to die... how they will play the harlot in the covenant... Deut 31:16. In fact, God refers to them as 'playing the harlot' all throughout the old testament. In Rev 17 & 18 it is summed up that because of it Jerusalem is destroyed, how the Pharasees took over the Levitical priesthood, and how it became tainted and corrupt because of it. 'Babylon the Great' (Rev 17:5) is Jerusalem and the 'Whore' is the corrupted priesthood. In Rev 17:6 the blood of the saints refers to Matt 23:34"Therefore, behold,
I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35so
that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36"
Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
It's not something mystical that we can take on ourselves.
The 'Antichrist' is a term used for those who opposed Jesus Christ.
1 John 2:18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
And
1 John 2:22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
If you are not FOR Christ you are AGAISNT Christ,... you are 'Anti Christ'.
I'm not denying your rendition, I do believe there is a literal take on it. I agree that God saw Israel as a whoring nation as she was antichrist by nature. Having said that, I also see the mind of natural man as a whoring mind in the same sense. We become intimate with beliefs that bring us most pleasure rather than with Truth. It's what religion does. It implicates nakedness and then establishes and enforces boundaries and rules for it's followers to live within it's standards of it's image of God.
If we "spiritualize" everything, then at what point does the literal not matter. In other words, literal Jesus death, burial and resurrection doesn't matter, it's the "spiritual death burial and resurrection" in our minds that matters, etc.
then you've essentially become "buddhist" in that it's the death of the "ego" and the rising of the "true self" (the mind of Christ, or Christ consciousness).
i don't see alot of difference in the teachings of "spiritual universalism" and "new age teaching" of the release of our true nature, the return to who we are.
I need to comment on something that just caught my eye and realization:
QuoteI'm not denying your rendition, I do believe there is a literal take on it
Of course there is a literal take on it... IT IS HISTORY! IT ALL ACTUALLY HAPPENED! To deny the actuality of everything would be like denying that Hitler built Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald and the like to do horrible things to people.
QuoteScripture is always abused by others by assuming scripture is written about others. It's not. It's written "to" me, "for" me and "in" me.
The whole bible is a historical documentation of events that happened to the Jewish people of 2000+ years ago, not of something that was written "to/for/in" Nathan of Tentmaker Forums 2010. When Jesus says many times that something will happen "in this generation" it does not mean that it will happen 2000 years from when He said it, it was pertenant to whom He was speaking to.. hence
it IS written about others.
Does this mean that it's not relevant to you now? That you can't learn anything from it? No, it does not. People write many, many, many books on history to help us learn from them. The bible is no different... it is to teach of the strugles of the Jewish people through the covenant, to teach you that God loves the world He created and the people in it so much that He would send his Son to be the ONLY sacrifice we would EVER NEED to be with HIM... that His FINAL sacrifice covers everyone, not just the Jewish people anymore. It is a book of prophecy from God's chosen people and how the prophecies have been fulfilled throughout history.
To change the meaning and purpose of the bible to suit what someone wants it to say for their own being is complete mystic practice and is nothing short of blasphemy.
You're misunderstanding what I was stating there. I was not meaning that the literal events and passages were written for . . .as you put it . . ."Nathan of Tentmaker forums in 2010" I'm saying that it's for the individual who's reading it to apply it to themselves rather than use it to rule over another.
What really interests me is that many prophecies describe
Quote2 Timothy 3:1-9
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
It sounds like all the rotten fruits from the everlasting Hellfire teaching. It seemed to have arisen as soon as the Church of Rome became the "official and true Church" Proud, boastful, abusive popes and monarchs in league with eachother. Sure not the little Church it was in the early days. Lovers of money, why not start making tithing threats. I dont think I have to further explain?
Universalist thought was present when Christianity was a small sect. It survived in Neostorian Christianity, despite Romes anathema. It had reappeared in Europe in Anabaptist Circles, and got sent over to the USA. And its around today with more than plenty of good resources on the internet.
Plus belief in Christian Universalism is a little Flock, and highly uncommon and heavily persecuted by traditionalist Christians.
The only form of Christianity that seems to follow biblical principles without having to twist the scriptures.
I've been on both sides of the fence. I taught the book of revelation when I was in mainline church thinking, and I've taught it from kingdom principles. And I've been guilty on both sides claiming that others who embrace a different approach twist Scriptures to make it fit. I'm not so sure that's entirely true.
Granted, I'm sure there are still those who do manipulate verses to say things "they" want to express for their own purposes. But for the most part, I think many believe differently for one, because that's what they were taught and they really didn't have any reason to think the "man of God" telling them these things would be outright lying to them.
And two, I think a lot of it has to do with perspectives. Knowledge always influences the interpretation of something. The intention for religious colleges is based on the idea, the more knowledge you obtain in the Scriptures, the more accuate your renderings of them will be. So they teach you doctrine that is already biased because they're not going to teach you Scripture that is contrary to what they fundamentally believe as a whole.
If I believe in hell, I'm not going to see, let alone emphasize passages that point a different direction. If someone approaches me and tells me I'm wrong about what I beleive and what they believe is right, it's going to automatically put me on the defense. Which then makes it nearly impossible for anything new and enlightening to get through at all. It's not that I twisted it, it's just that this was where my level of understanding is due to my relationship with God is actually with an image of God . .the church's image of God rather than the true nature of God.
I've always felt that salvation was an unconditional gift. But just last week, I was in deep conversation (some say it was more of an argument but that's just them) with a close relative on this very thing and they were adamant that everything God gives is conditional. Salvation is yours . . .under the condition you consciously choose to accept it. If not . . .to hell with you. And I think that's just so sad that someone would be so adamant about something so intimate and yet not see the depths of who God is.
I don't think they are "purposefully" twisting the Scriptures. They're accusing me of doing so. But I don't think they're really doing it on purpose. I think I'd use a different word than twisting. I think I'd go with "filtering". Jesus said his words are spirit. But when we embrace our individual reasoning when we read or hear his words, our minds actually filter the message and we miss the meat because our minds are not capable of comprehending spiritual meat, it only recognizes an image of it and if something is said or read that our minds can't grasp, it chokes the filter and we consciously reject the truth and call it heresy.
At least that's how I'm seeing it today.
The Lord always has a "remnant."
It's all that's required — a still small voice.
QuoteBut when we embrace our individual reasoning when we read or hear his words, our minds actually filter the message and we miss the meat because our minds are not capable of comprehending spiritual meat, it only recognizes an image of it and if something is said or read that our minds can't grasp, it chokes the filter and we consciously reject the truth and call it heresy.
In the book of Isaiah invites us to reason together.
QuoteThe Lord always has a "remnant."
It's all that's required — a still small voice
.
That's just not true anymore. The remnant was those under the law whom believed in the faithfulness of God, there is no longer a remaining group that will survive the judgement. There is one large group, the included into the work of the cross group, the body of Christ in whom Jesus is head.
Amen, but compared to the seething masses of the sea — it is but a remnant in the world that hear His voice.
Quoteit is but a remnant in the world that hear His voice
It is a remaining in the world that hear His voice? Sure there seems to be a small body whom hear, but it's not a small body that remains. Also the body is quite significant, add up the Mormons, the Jews, The Catholics, The Protestants, The Jehovah Witnesses, The Muslims....(etc)
It's something like 80% of thew world believes in the God of the Bible in one form or another.
Universalists are just one of the many...and they like you claim to be the right one.
Creation still waits for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
Jesus, Savior
QuoteCreation still waits for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
Are you a Son of God? I am because of what Jesus did. I have been restored, made complete as a Son of God.
Creation no longer waits for the revealing of the Sons of God, that theology and rhetoric is entrenched in many flawed and unbiblical reasonings.
Was Paul a Son of God? Was Peter and John? What about your children... what about the Son of God? Has He been revealed, has Jesus the Son of God been made manifest to the world, to creation as King?
Christ sits as King revealed as King to all of creation, to you, to me and all of eternity. I understand the idea of manifestation doctorine, again I know you don't hold to hell doctrine. My question why do you hold to their doctrine?
When the Sons are revealed, the whole world will be thrown off its horse like Saul was on his way to Damascus.
If you think this is "IT," Dallas, maybe the Lord should have prepared the way for you!
Hmmm . .. for me, even though all has been done , there are still things that are incomplete. It's not so much about the end as it is the now. If the kingdom is fully complete in the now, then where is the manifestation of that? I truly believe he's complete in me. but we are all still in the process of running the race are we not? Is my flesh perfected? Has my body come into it's new form? My heart has, my mind "is" but my body . . .is this realm still not governed by death and decay?
I think it's in the process of changing, but I'm not so sure it's fully complete as of yet. It's not so much a doctrine for me as it is just where I'm at in God's house. Still growing. Still open for more truth to continue to be planted in me so that more reproduction will occur in me and those around me.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 14, 2010, 03:02:25 AM
When the Sons are revealed, the whole world will be thrown off its horse like Saul was on his way to Damascus.
If you think this is "IT," Dallas, maybe the Lord should have prepared the way for you!
No Problem Beloved Servant - non-Son of God.
QuoteHmmm . .. for me, even though all has been done , there are still things that are incomplete.
Hmmm... that's exactly what I think, except for the differences!
Thanks Nathan, I'm as anxious as you are for His fulness.
Dallas, Sonship has been my hope for more than half my life.
The thing is, it's evident that there will be no denying it.
Everyone will know!
Now I say, as long as the heir is a child(nepios- infant, immature person), he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
(Gal 4:1-2)
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
(1Co 2:6-10)
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
(1Co 3:1-3)
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children(teknon-from teko, bear in travail) of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
(Rom 8:16-17)
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
(Luk 14:27)
Everyone will be reconciled to God, but not everyone is reconciled to God now. Not everyone who believes in God and/or the Bible is reconciled to God. The Pharisees believed in God and the Scriptures but they murdered Christ. Of those who are reconciled to God now, some are building wood, hay and stubble and will be saved, but as through flames- losing their reward. The reward I am speaking of is the sonship inheritance, for overcomers only, and only God knows who they are. Everyone who is reconciled to God now is a child of God but many of the children are no different than slaves because they are immature and are not trusted by the Father with the keys to the kingdom- no more than I would hand my car keys to my grandson who is 5. He might kill someone or hurt himself. No one who opposes the gospel is a son of God- they are sons of disobedience. Those who do not oppose the gospel but are immature, stuck in the natural man, babes- are unable to walk in the adoption they are called to. Many are called, few are chosen. When someone is chosen, it is evident, because they have demonstrated maturity so the Father gives them the keys. The ultimate evidence of the sonship of God will be the redemption of our bodies spoken of in Romans 8.
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:10-15)
Too bad no one ever taught Paul the four spiritual laws, he wouldn' t have had to worry about all this other stuff- and neither would we ;o)
Amen John. I believe we are to be proclaiming Jesus as Savior so people can believe and be reconciled. Gary has a good article on TM about the problems/dangers of an "all already saved" doctrine, i.e., no need to believe unto salvation/get saved. "How shall they believe in Whom they have not heard?"
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. I Tim. 2:4
that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith. 2 Thes. 3:2
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Yes, and amen. The Lord does not only call us to deliverance from the penalties of sin, he calls us to suffer the loss of all things in the pursuit of discipleship and sonship so that we can participate in the divine nature and the ministry of reconciliation and restoration. The idea that all of that is automatic for everyone who believes is not scriptural. Hence the exhortations to run with patience the race set before us, to press on toward the mark of the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Jesus was the pattern son. In bringing many sons to glory the captain of our salvation has called us to suffer with Him that we may be glorified with Him. For this reason Paul testified that he mortified the members of his body so that after having preached to others he might not become a castaway. Many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Mark 8:34
Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."
Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."
We pray Lord that THY WILL be done in our earth.
What do you think it means to deny oneself?
Why is it that we must suffer?
Just some questions I was thinking on while reading the posts, was wondering what everyones thoughts were on this? Maybe I should start a new thread, jabcat or is this one ok?
CHB
For me, denying my "self" is having my spirit exercise it's authority over my carnality. My "self" is my carnal nature.
The "suffering" part is our hell experience. It's the purging and purifying of our carnality being consumed. It's my "self" coming under submission to my Spirit so that life can abound. Self says it wants life, that's why self wants me to do whatever my "self" wants to do. But self does not lead me into life, only death, decay and bondage.
Quote from: CHB on April 15, 2010, 06:32:58 PM
What do you think it means to deny oneself?
Why is it that we must suffer?
Just some questions I was thinking on while reading the posts, was wondering what everyones thoughts were on this? Maybe I should start a new thread, jabcat or is this one ok?
CHB
Hi C. I think either way's OK, as the OP was a very open, multi-faceted one. If we get a long line of posts going strictly related to this one subject, we could always split it off to its own thread. I'll watch it. Feel free to start another thread if you want it to be more noticeable and solely focused on your question. Or let me know, and I can split it and rename starting a few posts up. Thanks, James.
I believe in every word/precept written in the scriptures - if they're properly translated, Spirit-revealed and Spirit-enabled. I just know in my lifetime I've distorted many things, leaned to my own understanding, and tried to use my own strength, goodness, and efforts to "be a good Christian". Make no mistake - I believe in obedience, holiness, and "...the completion of your charge is for love that is based on a clean heart, a good conscience, and a faith that is without pretense" I Timothy 1:5. However, I've also found, painfully so, that my own efforts have failed miserably. My own righteousness is as filthy rags. I cannot either save myself, or keep myself saved. Personally, I HAVE TO LOOK TO HIM - DWELL IN HIM- GET LOST IN HIS STRENGTH - because,
'I am not able of myself to do anything... John 5:30
The LORD is my strength .. Ps. 28:7
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10
Self does want to hold on to life, amen Nathan, which is why Adam was red/ruddy in the face; life is in the blood.
But Jesus glorified in Revelation had white hair, head and garments, for His blood/self was poured out for all creation.
His Spirit is the perfume in the alabaster vessel that was shattered for all mankind.
2 CORINTHIANS 4
7 Now we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the transcendence of the power may be of God and not of us.
8 In everything, being afflicted, but not distressed; perplexed, but not despairing;
9 persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not perishing --
10 always carrying about in the body the deadening of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body.
11 For we who are living are ever being given up to death because of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
12 So that death is operating in us, yet life in you.
Our daily death brings life to others.
allelluiah
QuoteWhat do you think it means to deny oneself?
Why is it that we must suffer?
Just some questions I was thinking on while reading the posts, was wondering what everyones thoughts were on this? Maybe I should start a new thread, jabcat or is this one ok?
CHB
Denying oneself... this all has to do with becoming included into the promises of God by oneself's own doing. Remember, Paul was preaching a Jewish fulfillment to the gentiles and Paul's foundation was based on those precepts, Jesus was speaking directly to Jews under the law whom were trying to fulfill the law by their own doing.
To deny oneself is to stop trying to get the promises of God by ones own ability and acknowledge their own inclusion by Jesus' doing. Just as Paul's denying of himself in Philipians;
Philippians 3:1 "Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.
2Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ,
Quote from: Dallas
Jesus was speaking directly to Jews under the law whom were trying to fulfill the law by their own doing.
To deny oneself is to stop trying to get the promises of God by ones own ability and acknowledge their own inclusion by Jesus' doing. Just as Paul's denying of himself in Philipians;
:thumbsup:
CHB
No confidence in the flesh! Amen to that!! Everyone has credentials on one level or another but until we bring them down to the dung level, we do more harm than good. This is why I do get excited when I see people stepping away from proof and into faith. Faith is where the deliverance awaits us.
"If I can't see it, how can I operate in it?" I see in us there are two distinct trees. One produces thoughts and fruits of life, the other, doubt and death. We have conversations going on inside our heads all the time. Much of the time, it's debates and justifications as to why we act the way we do. But for me, the spirit has no need or desire to debate anything. Spirit simply flows. It's either flowing in us from the Father, or out of us into others. But there's no debating, simply giving and receiving.
The debating comes from the intellect of my mind. Is this bad? Only when it becomes my identity. Surely we all know by now when God begins revealing the nature of Christ to us, it stretches our understanding to it's limits and beyond. Questions are necessary. Explanations are necessary. The problems arise when my head begins to defend what it thinks is truth against the message that appears to be in contrast. I judge what is right or wrong. I stand against another who approaches with a different message.
Truth is, my flesh hates it when it loses it's confidence in something. It "wants" to obtain all the knowledge it can so it can become confident. Yet that's not how the kingdom principles operate. They don't build or establish confidence in ourselves. I think part of my problems with my faith in the past is, I assume the health of my relationship with the Father is built upon my faith in him. When the reality is, it's built upon his faith in me.
All I see is all my limitations of how far I can go and what all I can do. I mean, let's be real here . . there's only so much this flesh can accomplish. But what I'm missing is the fact that God's power is endless. His faith in me is not something that he sees me doing in my own power. He sees me doing his will . . .in HIS power.
Walking in his power manifests through humility, meekness, gentleness and no confidence in my own flesh. It's not by might or power . . . it's not by my mind of reason or my hands of labor. But my faith is believing what I do, what I say, what I hear, what I touch and what I see, it all comes from his faith in me.
30 Even youths grow tired and weary,
and young men stumble and fall;
31 but those who hope in the LORD
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint.
--Isa 40
Amen Molly.
For we are but youths in the nature of love.
Today we love, tomorrow we criticize the same.
Remember the first time you were in love with someone?
When all you could do was think about them day and night!
The Lord never forgets His first Love, For it is us in His Image!
"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." (1Co 12:12) Conceive of two or more together with the ascended head present. Now think of the veil on this many membered Christ being lifted as what to expect when He "comes to be present" (ie, "parousia") in like manner as He left. Coming forth out of glory clouds He will appear unto those He has chosen, just as before. In the period of a generation He will bring out a people under His own authority who will be taught of Him. Worldwide, they will act like and talk like Jesus (Lk 6:40.) He will "seize them as His own possession" (ie, "harpazo" 1 Th 4:17.) So we are coming unto the promised perfect man, defined as "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." (Ep 4:13) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them . . . This is the first resurrection." (Rv 20:4-5) They will become the determining factor for what occurs among the sons of men.
Received this from Thomas Kissinger. Fits our discussion;
2nd Timothy 2:20-21 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet (profitable) for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
These two short verses give us very specific details pertaining to the sanctification process that we are called into as believers. The goal of this process in addition to becoming profitable for the Master's use is stated in verse nineteen, which states... 19Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, let every one that names the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY. The word "iniquity" used here comes from the Greek word "adikia" and refers to: a deed violating law and justice, act of unrighteousness. This is the whole point of our sanctification, whereby we are purged from our "lawless ways", which could also be referred to as the works of the flesh. The Scriptures tell us that the works of the flesh do violate the Word (Law) of God. Those who recognize and submit to the dealings of God are those who will be changed into a vessel of honor and then become profitable for the Master's use. This is what the manifestation of the sons of God is all about.
God is calling, choosing, and qualifying vessels of honor in this age, purging them from iniquity in order that they might be manifested at the first resurrection to be the overcomers who shall lead the nations, the church in general, and the unbelievers to Christ, so that every knee will bow to Jesus and every tongue will confess His precious name. Please understand, though, this has only been made possible because of the blood of the cross of Christ. Those who recognize they are called into this leadership role will give all the glory to God and are certainly not on an ego trip, thinking they are better than others. Neither do they see themselves as elite, but rather, they are so humbled that God would shed His grace and mercy on them in order that they might understand the hope of their calling {the high calling - the out-resurrection from among the dead (exanastasis) or first resurrection}.
God purges us through our fiery trials when we have faith in the midst of our trials. Remember what the apostle Paul said about tribulations? Romans 5:3-5... 3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience; 4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5And hope makes not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Paul could say this because he understood that our "light affliction" that we experience in this age is nothing in comparison to the glory that shall be revealed in us in the ages to come as the manifested sons of God.
There is no need to hide from God as though we are afraid of Him. He knows we have sin in our members. It is called mortality, and he is the One Who subjected us to it through the fall of Adam. It is all part of His master plan to gather together in one all things in Christ, making our latter end greater than our beginning. We must understand that the fire of God is His Word (Law). The very purpose of this is to burn up our wood, hay, and stubble (our carnality). The beautiful part of the fire of God is that it does purge and that it is corrective.
Our God is able to raise up all flesh, even those that erred in spirit, bringing them to a proper understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine (accept instruction). Once again, this is God's purpose for all, but it starts first with those who purge themselves and are qualified to be profitable for the Master's use. These vessels of honor are the first part of God's great harvest of souls - The Barley Harvest. They are those that shall play a part in bringing in the Wheat and Grape Harvest (the church in general and the unbelievers). This desperately needs to be taught and understood in the reconciliation movement. This is HOW God is going to save ALL through the blood of the cross of Christ. He is going to do it through His vessels of honor with Jesus Christ as the Head and Captain of this company.
If we do not understand sanctification and HOW God is going to save ALL, then we will tend to gravitate toward Unitarianism and New Age beliefs. Ask God to give you a revelation of "the mystery of iniquity" that Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians chapter two. We are told to depart from iniquity all through the Scriptures. It behooves us to understand what iniquity is, and how we are able to depart from it by the grace and mercy of God. Remember...it is God Who is doing the work in us, but we are called upon to fight the good fight of faith as we recognize and submit to the purging of God.
Hallelujah! Thomas--Sincerely,Thomas Kissinger Hearing The Truth Of God (A Website Dedicated To Promoting Truth) www.hearingthetruthofgod.com
QuoteOur daily death brings life to others.
PERFECT!
I wonder sometimes about the "Itching of Ears" and the great falling away. For 500 years of Church history, Universalism was the primary thought in the Christedom in the East and West. Only the school of Africa had a belief in everlasting torment.(Home of the beloved Augustine and Tertullian). In the 500s, the teaching on the Apocatastasis was condemned, and both the Eastern and Western Churches accepted ET. Im not sure about the Nestorians, or if they are around anymore, or let alone believe in the Apokatastasis anymore.
Wow!!! You guys sure have some good words and thoughts in your posts. I have really enjoyed reading what you all had to say. :thumbsup: :happy3:
The original post mentions "future". What do you all think about what lies ahead? We have had a lot of earthquakes this year and other things happening. Do you think it will get worse or better and do you think we are in the last days?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 16, 2010, 05:02:08 PM
Wow!!! You guys sure have some good words and thoughts in your posts. I have really enjoyed reading what you all had to say. :thumbsup: :happy3:
The original post mentions "future". What do you all think about what lies ahead? We have had a lot of earthquakes this year and other things happening. Do you think it will get worse or better and do you think we are in the last days?
CHB
i no longer worry, whatever happens God will deliver us, if there is fire, we will be like the three in the furnace, worry not, what ever happens i think it wont be whats expected.
we have been in the last days for 2000 yrs AKA 2 days since the crucufixion :thumbsup:
Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.
God bless
chuckt
The last days . . .for me are not about days in general but specific days of the week of creation. It was on the 4th day that the sun, moon and stars were created. It was on the 4th day (4,000 year) that Christ was born. Jesus stated "tear this temple down and in three days I'll raise it up". John explained that he was referring to his body. ("What? Know ye not that "you/we" are a temple of the Holy Ghost?" Paul)
In Genesis when the days were being established, I love this part . . ."blessings" didn't begin to manifest until "after" the 4th day. It was on the 5th day that God created living creaters in the waters and "blessed" them.(Gen. 1:22) On the 6th day, God created animals and man and "blessed" them. (Gen. 1:28) On the 7th day, God created it to honor his rest and "blessed" it. (Gen. 2:3)
It was the beginning of the 5th day when the spirit poured out upon all flesh. The last days began on the 5th day. The number of grace. The day we are in is the dawning of the 7th day, the last day of the last days. We are becoming the Sabbath.
QuoteIt was the beginning of the 5th day when the spirit poured out upon all flesh. The last days began on the 5th day. The number of grace. The day we are in is the dawning of the 7th day, the last day of the last days. We are becoming the Sabbath.
good stuff, 5+2= 7 :wink1:
Quote from: Nathan on April 16, 2010, 05:45:53 PM
The last days . . .for me are not about days in general but specific days of the week of creation. It was on the 4th day that the sun, moon and stars were created. It was on the 4th day (4,000 year) that Christ was born. Jesus stated "tear this temple down and in three days I'll raise it up". John explained that he was referring to his body. ("What? Know ye not that "you/we" are a temple of the Holy Ghost?" Paul)
In Genesis when the days were being established, I love this part . . ."blessings" didn't begin to manifest until "after" the 4th day. It was on the 5th day that God created living creaters in the waters and "blessed" them.(Gen. 1:22) On the 6th day, God created animals and man and "blessed" them. (Gen. 1:28) On the 7th day, God created it to honor his rest and "blessed" it. (Gen. 2:3)
It was the beginning of the 5th day when the spirit poured out upon all flesh. The last days began on the 5th day. The number of grace. The day we are in is the dawning of the 7th day, the last day of the last days. We are becoming the Sabbath.
Hi Nathan,
This was very interesting. I have heard some say that we are in the third day. I remember seeing a Church that said "the Third Day Church". Don't know what they believed but wondered about this third day. Do you think Jesus was referring to three thousand years from when he was crucified, when he talked about the third day? I guess you could say we are in the third day since Christ was crucified and also the 7th day?
Do you think we are in the day of rest?
CHB
You do realize the fact that you asked this question is evidence that God is revealing something to you already. That's what revelation does. It prompts you to ask the questions that turn the tumblers with which the door of Truth opens to you. That's how Peter received his first experience in having the nature of Jesus revealed to him. Jesus prompted him with a question.
And you are seeing it exactly as I see it. The third day and the 7th day are the same day. The third day comes through resurrection, the 7th day comes through rest. Both are the same and both require the same standards. And that is, in order to see it, natural reasoning can not be applied. That's where the personal interpretation muddies it up.
That was the "pattern" God established with the Israelites with the gathering of the manna. Jesus is the manna John 6:
48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die
For 5 days, the rule was that they were to go out every morning (resurrection again) and gather just enough that would provide them for a days supply. But on the sixth day, the day of "man" they were to gather twice as much because twice as much knowledge of the Lord would be provided.
Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
It's all in preparation for the coming of the Sabbath.
Hebrews 8
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
When the Sabbath comes . . .or when we enter into it, which ever comes first . . . the rules we followed before-hand will no longer apply. That's why I think now some struggle with trying to learn the "spiritual" side of things. We're using natural logic traits while we're attempting to enter into spirit-realm truths. It does not come by way of flesh and blood, but through the reveling of the Father. Spiritual revelation is walking "in" the Sabbath and if we continue applying rules of labor to Sabbath day operations, we'll feel like we're banging our heads against a brick wall. Entering into the Sabbath is part of the maturity experience everyone goes through at one time or another in their lives.
But yeah, the "day" of resurrection (third day) is the same "day" as the Sabbath Rest (seventh day). And that's where God is leading us into and revealing to our natures all at the same time.
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
(2Pe 3:8)
Taught as a euphemism for the eternal nature of God, this statement, especially in the context of the rest the chapter, is really so much more ;o)
Quotedo you think we are in the last days?
Acts 2 (The Day of Pentecost) 2:4 "But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16 but
this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
Hebrews 1:1 "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
There are many, many more scriptures with the apostles testifying that they were living in the last days. The last days biblically speaking was always refering to the last days of the Mosaic Covenant, never did it ever refer to the end of the planet in a destruction sense.
I live in the seventh day.... the day of rest. The eternal never ending day of rest. The seventh day was concearning the end of the law, as long as the law was established and had power then people could work for righteousness, but when rest came... day seven was established and ended work.
Day seven was and is acknowledged by Jewish scholars and contemporary scholars as the day of completion, that's why Jews use the number seven to mean complete. When used in conjuction with work day seven was always the complete day of rest.
The Hebrew people and prophets always looked forward to this day, prophesied by David and Moses...but because of the hardness of the hearts of the Hebrew people in the wilderness when God brought them out, God promised that they would never enter into the day 7 rest, the day of complete rest based on tier work.
But for Me!!! Because faith came, the faith of Jesus, I was brought into complete rest, for I have rested from all my works, from trying to become righteous by my own work but instead rest on His.
Hebrews 4:1 "Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
"AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,"
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
5and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
Quote from: Dallas
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
Hebrews 1:1 "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Hi Dallas,
I agree that the last days that was spoken of at times were in the apostles day and the end of the law.
I have a question? Could "the last days" also mean the end of all things. I am thinking, what if there will be another "last days" when all is in all?
There were two Covenants, the end of one has already been. There will be an end of the New Covenant when all is in all, don't you think? There will be no need for a Covenant when everyone becomes a Spirit being. Just thinking here.
CHB
I know who the beast are
http://imageshare.web.id/images/shs17zc76lv28twogk8v.jpg
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/5233/sealsexplained11.jpg
Some say the beast is every man, the beast in us. Some say it is the monetary system, credit cards, implants, you name it.
I use to think that it was a man of the Middle East who would set up his kingdom in Jerusalem and reinstitute the laws of Moses. These laws are the only thing in the Bible where God says "And ye shall bind them for a SIGN upon thine HAND, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes" Deut.6:8). I always thought this verse went with (Rev. 13:16-17) "And he caused all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark {sign} in their right hand, or in their foreheads".
The only thing is, I believe the book of Revelation was written mostly to the Israelites. The angel did tell John to "write the things which thou HAST SEEN, and the things which ARE, and the things WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER". I don't think there will be a beast in the future, I think he existed in the apostles day or just after. The reason I think this is, Revelation speaks about a Lamb, we all know the Lamb was Jesus before his crucifixion. It also speaks of kings and priests, which I believe only applies to Israel. It also speaks of WORKS which only applies to the laws, or Covenants. It may be that this will be a repeat but as of now, I have come to the conclusion that this has already happened. The reason I say "as of now" is, someone may say something to change my mind in the future.
CHB
QuoteThere will be no need for a Covenant when everyone becomes a Spirit being.
Everyone is a spirit being, fully spirit and physical body. The whole idea of death preceeds someone perfected body is faulty. One scripture taken and blown into something it was never meant to.
You are quite caught on the flesh. It seems to hold you back from acknowledging some very fundamental understandings. Take out your concordance and research the word. Flesh as it pertains to salvation is tied to man's ability to follow the law, not a body of sinew and tissue. This physical body holds you back from nothing.
1 John "For as He is, so are we in this world"
ps.... the beast is nero ceasar, it's becoming common knowledge finally.
Quote from: Dallas on April 17, 2010, 07:07:56 PM
QuoteThere will be no need for a Covenant when everyone becomes a Spirit being.
Everyone is a spirit being, fully spirit and physical body. The whole idea of death preceeds someone perfected body is faulty. One scripture taken and blown into something it was never meant to.
You are quite caught on the flesh. It seems to hold you back from acknowledging some very fundamental understandings. Take out your concordance and research the word. Flesh as it pertains to salvation is tied to man's ability to follow the law, not a body of sinew and tissue. This physical body holds you back from nothing.
1 John "For as He is, so are we in this world"
ps.... the beast is nero ceasar, it's becoming common knowledge finally.
Hi Dallas,
Yes, I understand in a lot of places the flesh is referred to as law. but not in every verse.
(Job 19:26) (Acts 2:26) (Acts 2:17) (Isaiah 40:5) (Psalms 65:2) (Mark 14:48) (John 6:63) (Rom. 8:3) (Rom 6:19) (Gal. 2:20). There are many more scriptures that speak of the flesh that doesn't sound like they have any thing to do with law.
I guess I am confused as to what you believe about death. Are you saying that our flesh does not die? If this is true, why do we have funerals, dig a grave, bury a body? Where is everyone that is not here now? Flesh in my understanding of salvation is what will be destroyed, the law doesn't save anyone. Please explain what you mean.
You may be right about Nero being the beast.
CHB
Quote from: Dallas.... the beast is nero ceasar, it's becoming common knowledge finally.
Nero himself? Or the system he represents--elevating man to the position of God? A system which has never really gone away?
Nero's rule is often associated with tyranny and extravagance.[3] He is known for a number of executions, including those of his mother[4] and stepbrother, and as the emperor who "fiddled while Rome burned",[5] and as an early persecutor of Christians. This view is based upon the main surviving sources for Nero's reign—Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio. Few surviving sources paint Nero in a favorable light.[6]
Over time, Nero became progressively more powerful, freeing himself of his advisers and eliminating rivals to the throne. In 55, he removed Marcus Antonius Pallas, an ally of Agrippina, from his position in the treasury.[30] Pallas, along with Burrus, was accused of conspiring against the emperor to bring Faustus Sulla to the throne.[34] Seneca was accused of having relations with Agrippina and embezzlement.[35] Seneca succeeded in having himself, Pallas and Burrus acquitted.[35] According to Cassius Dio, at this time, Seneca and Burrus reduced their role in governing from careful management to mere moderation of Nero.[36]
To consolidate power, Nero executed a number of people in 62 and 63 including his rivals Pallas, Rubellius Plautus and Faustus Sulla.[53] According to Suetonius, Nero "showed neither discrimination nor moderation in putting to death whomsoever he pleased" during this period.[54]
Nero's consolidation of power also included a slow usurping of authority from the Senate. In 54, Nero promised to give the Senate powers equivalent to those under Republican rule.[55] By 65, senators complained that they had no power left and this led to the Pisonian conspiracy.[56]
According to Tacitus, the population searched for a scapegoat and rumors held Nero responsible.[83] To deflect blame, Nero targeted Christians. He ordered Christians to be thrown to dogs, while others were crucified and burned.[83]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god. --Eze 28
QuoteHi Dallas,
Yes, I understand in a lot of places the flesh is referred to as law. but not in every verse.
(Job 19:26) (Acts 2:26) (Acts 2:17) (Isaiah 40:5) (Psalms 65:2) (Mark 14:48) (John 6:63) (Rom. 8:3) (Rom 6:19) (Gal. 2:20). There are many more scriptures that speak of the flesh that doesn't sound like they have any thing to do with law.
I guess I am confused as to what you believe about death. Are you saying that our flesh does not die? If this is true, why do we have funerals, dig a grave, bury a body? Where is everyone that is not here now? Flesh in my understanding of salvation is what will be destroyed, the law doesn't save anyone. Please explain what you mean.
You may be right about Nero being the beast.
CHB
It's interesting to note that some of the above scriptures have already been translated away from flesh, such as Acts 2:17 where the more founded response of flesh is translated to mankind, based upon an ancient language there are many disputes about that word for example the Isaiah scripture, Isaiah 40:5:
5Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
How will all flesh see it, what about the blind, those who are without eyes? Does this mean that the Glory of the Lord is a physical tangible thing that can be seen...even an invisible God?
The whole idea of the "flesh" has been long misrepresented because of it's arcane use versus our modern day usage.
Psalm 65:2, King James "O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come." and now the NASB (same scripture just updated language use) Psalm 65: O You who hear prayer, To You all men come"
Now I'm not suggesting that it's wrong, it's our misunderstanding of Ancient Elizabethean English. Even modern day Elizabeathen, those speaking english in Europe do not speak in the same usage as we do. It is not as hell dissappears for error, but flesh is disappearing for context in a north american cultural use.
If I were to say to someone in Harlem, "Let's go smoke a fag" I would be suggesting murdering a homosexual, but in England I would be saying, "Let us go have a cigarette."
Just as in England they would say, God poured out His spirit on all flesh, we in america say, God poured His spirit out on all mankind.
There is a contextual awarness that needs to bring about meaning for that word, both before and after the text.
The fact I still have the text of Holy Scripture testifies to the fact that it is still operative for Jesus says, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot (yod) or one tittle (Heb: taagin, or, tagin) shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Mt 5:18, AV)
one jot (Eng: the cross of a "t.") (Heb: yod; the smallest Hebrew letter; the Massorites numbered 66,420 of them.) (The Greek text has: iota)
or one tittle (Eng: a dot over an "i.") Tittle is diminuitive of title [Latin: titulus] =a small mark placed over a word for any pupose: e.g., to mark an abbreviation. (Heb: taagin, or, tagin, meaning little crowns. The merest ornament placed over specific letters in the Hebrew text. They do not affect the meaning, but are used to scrupulouly guard that even one letter on the text would not be lost. Various letters at certain places had three, four, five, six, or even seven of these marks crowning that letter. The Greek speaking Jews called them little horns, [Heb: keranoth] because they looked like horns. The Greek text here has keraia = horn. This follows the Massorites record of what they are though some more recent books have another explanation, that of comparing similar Hebrew letters.)
Matthew 5:17-19 (Concordant Literal Translation):
17 "You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.
18 For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.
19 "Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens."
These have not passed. I have them on my desk, my computer and all about.
We must wait the procession of development until the sixth period (Heb: tag = day or period) of light and dark for the Image of God to appear. Then, that image must enter into the day without night, the sabbath rest. We are now in the forming of that bride Christa who with the annointing Christ will have dominion in all the earth. Until the manifestation of the sons of God, reigning with Him, the Image (form) and Likeness (similatude) unveiled as the irrisistable authority in all the earth and for all that dwell therein, the consumation of entering into the seventh Millenial Day. This Age of Tabernacles has not occured for the crop of the sons born of the Seed, Who has entered, the Head being first born.
When entering the land of Promise (resurrection life) the Priests carrying the ark proceeded till, when their feet touched the river it stands up all the way to Adam, and the priest go on dry ground to stand in the midst of the riverbed. They were two thousand cubits ahead of the rest of the people. The priests with the ark stood till all had passed by. We are about two thousand years since Jesus, God's ark of the testimony, entered the river and stood conquoring all back to Adam. The time is at hand to enter in to our inheritance, which is the fullness of the Holy Ghost, the blessing of Abraham, for which God must physically modify us.
QuoteActs 2:17:
17'(A)AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND
Hey CHB, forgot to reply to this,
I must question, God will pour out His non-physical spirit ipon physical corporeal flesh of man? So God's spirit becomes flesh?
14And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
--John 1
Some thoughts:
"Flesh" and "law" can mean different things according to context.
The word was made flesh and tabernacled among us.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Jesus was made flesh but did not walk after the flesh, therefore death could not hold Him, "neither did His flesh see corruption". God was "manifest in the flesh" and because of Jesus-
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
"because the arm of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh see it together"
"law" can refer to the corrupted code that the Pharisees constructed by wrongly interpreting the "law" of Moses. The law of Moses is a manifestation of the "law of God" but is not in itself "law of God written on their hearts" seeing as that they(Romans 1&2) were justified by that "law" on their hearts not having the "law" written in stone. In some places the "law" is a positive thing, expressing the spirit, in some places it is a negative thing, expressing the letter. The letter kills the spirit gives life- "life to my flesh and strength to my bones". The Spirit defines the context.
Joh 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Quote from: Dallas on April 18, 2010, 08:03:31 AM
QuoteActs 2:17:
17'(A)AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND
Hey CHB, forgot to reply to this,
I must question, God will pour out His non-physical spirit ipon physical corporeal flesh of man? So God's spirit becomes flesh?
No, but wouldn't the flesh become more spiritual? What I mean is, if we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us aren't we more spiritual than if we didn't have it?
CHB
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
--John 6:51
[living] "bread"
G740
ἄρτος
artos
ar'-tos
From G142; bread (as raised) or a loaf: - (shew-) bread, loaf.
G142
αἴρω
airō
ah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
John 6:27
27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
"seal"
G4973
σφραγίς
sphragis
sfrag-ece'
Probably strengthened from G5420; a signet (as fencing in or protecting from misappropriation); by implication the stamp impressed (as a mark of privacy, or genuineness), literally or figuratively: - seal.
Quote from: CHB on April 18, 2010, 08:37:36 PM
Quote from: Dallas on April 18, 2010, 08:03:31 AM
QuoteActs 2:17:
17'(A)AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND
Hey CHB, forgot to reply to this,
I must question, God will pour out His non-physical spirit ipon physical corporeal flesh of man? So God's spirit becomes flesh?
No, but wouldn't the flesh become more spiritual? What I mean is, if we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us aren't we more spiritual than if we didn't have it?
CHB
For me, to become more spiritual is like becoming more pregnant. However, it wasn't that the disciples became more spiritual after the upper room experience. It was that spiritual truth became much clearer to their understanding.
I am a spirit first and foremost. My spirit has a personality (soul) and it temporarily lives in this natural fleshly body. This body of flesh is what's attracted to fleshy things and is also what falls into bondage with fleshly desires. But I am still "a" spirit. The enablement of spiritual clarity comes through the "realigning" of my spirit and my personality or my mind. If I live only or predominantly according to my mind, then spiritual clarity can not manifest.
But if I allow my mind to be in submission to my spirit, then the kingdom Jesus first taught about becomes alive in my understanding. I believe we are living in a dominantly natural realm because Adam chose knowledge over life. He threw the original alignment of things out of whack when he received fruit from Eve.
The ark of Noah depicts the reversal of that misalignment through the prophetic decrees given to man through the spirit. God used and uses natural people and experiences to illuminate spiritual truths. Revelation, the book, is no different than any of the other books in that it depicts the happenings to nations and people in the natural is the same pattern that transpires within every man in the spiritual.
Nero was "the" antichrist being depicted for that generation to whom Revelation was originally written to. However, "in" every one of us there is also and antichrist equivelant in that our minds are always at emnity against God. God uses natural experiences to reveal spiritual truths.
The volcano that has recently erupted . . .what's the main theme that the media is broadcasting? It's all about the airlines.
For me, the aftermath is the results of ash . . .burnt up particles infiltraiting in the air. It's the shaking of a burned sacrifice in that the carnal things of men are being burned, consumed and the ash of that which was burned is mixed in the atmosphere . . .which represents spirit realm . . .and when you mix the two together, it disables man from the ability to fly. Spiritually speaking of course.
God uses the natural expereinces to reveal spiritual truths.
QuoteNo, but wouldn't the flesh become more spiritual? What I mean is, if we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us aren't we more spiritual than if we didn't have it?
CHB
I think we are talking about two different things. You seem to present spirituality as seperate from this material world, almost like a different exsistance, two going on at one time.
Biblcally speaking, spiritual things are the unseen things. What are the unseen things...
Example; Think of the number seven, create a picture of the number in your head then say it in your head. Do this a few times.... Now, you don't have eye's in your brain yet you seen the number as real as you would have with your physical eyes, you heard a voice in your head even though you have no mouth to say it in your brain nor a mouth even to form the words. Those are the unseen things, also emotions....stress is an emotion that causes a physical reaction, fear can make some one throw up. The spirit is not a seperate thing from your physical, the difference is, you can't see the spiritual. That's were life and death exsist. You can't become more spiritual or less, as Nathan correctly described it, you just become more mindful of it. You set you mind on the things of the spirit....peace joy and righteousness instead of accumulating possesions etc.
Hi Dallas, Nathan,
I realize I didn't use the right words in explaining what I was trying to get across. Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying? I was thinking about what Paul said in (Gal. 5:16) "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh".
(Gal. 5:17)"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh".
If we are not fulfilling the the lust of the flesh, wouldn't the Spirit be more evident in us than the flesh?
In Acts 2:17) that says I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and daughters shall prophesy.
Won't the Spirit be more manifested in those who have the Spirit poured out on them, than they did before it was poured out on them?
I would have to say I am more spiritual now than I use to be. Is that a wrong perception
CHB
Hey CHB,
I explained what I know to be by definition spiritual. What is spiritual by definition in your mind?
Because I get conflicting understandings from your statements.
Quote
Won't the Spirit be more manifested in those who have the Spirit poured out on them, than they did before it was poured out on them?
I would have to say I am more spiritual now than I use to be.
Won't the Spirit be more revealed in those who have the spirit poured out on them? So those who haven't had the spirit poured out on them do manifest the spirit?
You are more spiritual, what was less spiritual?
I honestly don't understand your word usage, please define it for me.
Dallas
A "spiritual" man is not the result of even many spiritual experiences. After the Holy Spirit enters, quickens and raises the human spirit to life, being "spiritual" comes about as one is consistently given over to the spirit in contradistinction to the flesh. Not only is the body substance, though physical, but spirit itself is actual substance.
When we are born physically into the world we have senses like the lowered Adam creature we are. When we are born from above this new life in union with God also comes with senses, only they are spiritual or extended senses. Though in part (until the liberation of the physical into born of resurrection glory) we see God and see things by the means of God: visions, a quickening of the eye of understanding, and even seeing in the soulical as well as the spiritual dimensions. Smell corresponds with the discerning of spirits. Touch imparts spirit and feels spirits, and so on. If some do not have much experience with this it doesn't make it false or delusional. It is available to all as our inheritance being born of God.
I don't remember if we have a "What is spirit, spirits, spiritual, spirituality?" thread, but maybe it would be good to move some of these posts and start one. What do you think?
Quote from: reFORMer on April 20, 2010, 05:45:06 AM
When we are born from above
Thank you. Good starting point. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Dallas on April 19, 2010, 11:33:35 PM
QuoteNo, but wouldn't the flesh become more spiritual? What I mean is, if we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us aren't we more spiritual than if we didn't have it?
CHB
I think we are talking about two different things. You seem to present spirituality as seperate from this material world, almost like a different exsistance, two going on at one time.
Biblcally speaking, spiritual things are the unseen things. What are the unseen things...
Example; Think of the number seven, create a picture of the number in your head then say it in your head. Do this a few times.... Now, you don't have eye's in your brain yet you seen the number as real as you would have with your physical eyes, you heard a voice in your head even though you have no mouth to say it in your brain nor a mouth even to form the words. Those are the unseen things, also emotions....stress is an emotion that causes a physical reaction, fear can make some one throw up. The spirit is not a seperate thing from your physical, the difference is, you can't see the spiritual. That's were life and death exsist. You can't become more spiritual or less, as Nathan correctly described it, you just become more mindful of it. You set you mind on the things of the spirit....peace joy and righteousness instead of accumulating possesions etc.
For me there's a flip side to this in that my mind has the ability to "create" an image that is not accurate or real. That's what my "image"ination does. It "creates" an image through logic and reasoning in my "head" not my heart. And because my "head" doesn't have the capacity to grasp the spiritual realities, I can't rely on those images my head produces. My "spirit", however, projects images "to" my head. My head sees but can't understand, or make any sense of it until the spirit also clarifies what's being projected.
Not only do we eat his flesh, but we also drink his blood. Why? Because just eating the flesh will bring satisfaction to my flesh, which is temporary. But eating the flesh and drinking the blood, because life is in the blood, drinking in his blood ushers in and sustains his life in my flesh. His flesh, to me, is the bread, the words "of" life. His blood is what brings clariity to the words "of" life and transforms the words "of" life into a blending of my "life" manifesting his word.
In this realm, everything revolves around my mind. If I can't understand it, then there is no advancement or growth until I do. But with spiritual truth, it's just the opposite. We "can't" grow "until" we stop trying to reason with spiritual matters.
The message of the spirit comes by way of "sound". Not by soundwaves in the natural sense, but spiritually . . .yikes . . .it's so hard for the mind to even explain what spirit is. Jesus stated his words are spirit. And what do those words do? They "bring" life and light. And where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. "That's" the sound. The sound can't be heard by natural ears, but it's results can be seen by natural eyes. Jesus said "my sheep know the "sound" of my voice. His words are spirit and they have a "sound" that sets us free.
Thus, it's by way of sound that liberty comes in us. You ever sit and listen to any given televangelist? You can tell in just minutes whether there is true sound coming from them, or whether it's simply a bunch of noise. That's all I'm trying to say. Words of liberation and life come through the sound of truth where as religion and control comes by way of rhetoric and noise.
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
(1Co 13:1)
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
(Psa 19:1-2)
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
(Rom 1:19-20)
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
(Rom 2:14-15)
"Lord, Lord, didn't we do many mighty works in your name?"...."I was thirsty and you gave me no drink"..."Depart from me you lawless ones, I never knew you".
Some have heard the sound, tho never having been presented with "the noise." Some, continually making, "the noise"... have nevertheless never heard the sound.
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
(1Jn 3:10)
If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
(1Jn 3:17-20)
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
(1Jn 4:7)
Quote from: Dallas on April 20, 2010, 02:03:46 AM
Hey CHB,
I explained what I know to be by definition spiritual. What is spiritual by definition in your mind?
Because I get conflicting understandings from your statements.
Quote
Won't the Spirit be more manifested in those who have the Spirit poured out on them, than they did before it was poured out on them?
I would have to say I am more spiritual now than I use to be.
Won't the Spirit be more revealed in those who have the spirit poured out on them? So those who haven't had the spirit poured out on them do manifest the spirit?
You are more spiritual, what was less spiritual?
I honestly don't understand your word usage, please define it for me.
Dallas
I just thought of something Dallas. I said in another post "No but wouldn't the flesh become more spiritual"? I just realized how stupid that sounds. The flesh cannot become spiritual, it profits nothing. The only thing about me that is spiritual is Christ living in me. (1Cor. 12:11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit,
dividing to every man serverally as he will. It says that Christ wasn't given the Spirit by MEASURE. Does this mean that some have more of the Holy Spirit than others? Are there some who don't have any of the Holy Spirit at all? Spiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.
CHB
(Me here C, 'scuse me for buttin' in) :mblush:
I personally believe none of us "has the Holy Spirit" indwelling us until we're born from above, thus the spiritual new birth. Whether one is "more filled than another" after that, is a very interesting question. There are many beliefs about that. Southern Baptists for example, believe one has "all the Holy Spirit they're ever going to get" upon the new birth. Many Pentecostals and Charismatics believe there is a coming of the Holy Spirit at new birth, then another filling - and then some believe the filling waxes, wanes, comes and goes.
Again, good question C. (I'll get back out now :bigGrin:)
I sure missed these kinds of thoughts and threads. Great discussion you are having in this. Hey, Jabcat, I got a thought for ya . . . seems to me there's a passage that states our flesh is actually a veil that keeps us from seeing truth. What if God's spirit is in every being, it's just not revealed, or manifesting due to the fact that they're embracing the veil. But when we turn to Christ, the veil is then removed, leaving the light of truth to then illuminate truth into others as in ourselves.
It's there, it's just "beneath" the veil of flesh and through salvation, that spiritual alignment is then "resurrected" (born again experience) from being beneath the flesh to returning to the throne in our lives where it was once originally established in Adam.
Another picture of being filled with the spirit is rather than looking at it like a jar being "filled" with water, instead we are as sails of a ship being filled with the currents of the wind. The "filling" of the sails is not the result of spirit pouring "in" us, but instead it's a result of the spirit (wind) "moving" through us. Being filled with the spirit in Scripture usually preludes to the individual being "led" to be someplace, do or say something. It was what led them into action, just as when wind fills the sails of a boat to move the boat over the depths of the darkness of the waters beneath, so moves the spirit in our lives through the vast unknown areas just beyond our line of vision.
It's an interesting thought Nathan, and I don't know for sure - but I do believe the Holy Spirit comes individually when Jesus draws (drags) unto Himself. I'll need to track down some more scripture on it. But in Ephesians 5:18 Paul says "be filled with the Spirit". I haven't spend much time on this, but I found this comment for consideration: "Within the Greek language is an indicative mode, which is the statement of fact, and an imperative mode, which states a command. Ephesians 5:18 is an emphatic imperative, and is literally translated, "Be being kept filled with the Spirit." It is a command that includes the idea of conscious continuation."
A topic worth more thought and consideration.
I like Nathan's analogy. When sailing, the wind may be blowing, but if the sail is not turned in the right direction and held in the proper attitude, the wind will not fill the sails. Hence, pauls exhortation to keep being filled with the spirit and to have in us the same attitude that was in Christ Jesus, i.e. use the benefits of sonship for the purpose of serving.
I personally believe the spirit of God is available to everyone, at all times, as the rain that falls on the just and the unjust, for as Pauls said in Acts 17 , "for in Him we live and move and have our being". But I believe there is a measure of the indwelling spirit that is available only to believers
On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
(Joh 7:37-39)
But even tho it says the Spirit had not yet been given, Peter says of the prophets " Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand" and "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:32-33)
The this, which was seen and heard was something special.
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(Act 19:1-6)
There were disciples who had believed, but had as yet not heard of the Holy Spirit, Paul referred to their baptism, I believe going back to the message of Peter on the day of Pentecost. I don't believe speaking in tongues is the exclusive evidence of the baptism, or coming upon, or filling, or overflow of the Spirit- but I do think there is evidence. It is the manifestation of the supernatural anointing of Christ- which is primarily righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, and the "spirit of unity in the bond of peace"- but should also include the gifts of the Spirit distributed "severally as He wills" throughout the various members of the Body of Christ.
But we are to be renewed in the spirit of our minds and strengthened with might by His Spirit in our inner man. That is a daily renewal that has, IMO, struggles and crests and ups and downs- so we are to bear one another burdens, pray for one another etc.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
(2Co 4:7-10)
QuoteSpiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.
CHB
Now I don't mean to argue you, but...when the writers of the bible penned spiritual did they have that definition? My point is, when you look up spiritual in the dictionary it doesn't say that. That is Christianes and distorts the literary meaning.
The bible talks about men who don't have God's spirit working in them as such but are reffered to as spiritual men. Shouldn't we, to keep the meaning of the literature, read words with word meaning?
New agers don't believe in God, yet they are refered to as spiritual people as is the proper word usage.
Dallas
QuoteI personally believe none of us "has the Holy Spirit" indwelling us until we're born from above
I would agree with this to some extent, as CHB quoted from Acts 2, "God poured forth His spirit on all mankind."
All people have the Holy Ghost poured out on them for all of creation has it, that does lead them to knowing God in all fullness. However there is a need for the awakening or as you say "born again" experience.
The only way they have an awakening as Jesus said and Paul, "Awake sleep, arise unto rightouesness" is when each in thier own time comes. But until then they are not held back from the cross for God has made all in Christ and walking with them into all eternity when it is best to bring them to the fullness.
So IMO all are filled with the spirit, but not all have been awaken unto righteousness.
As far as to Paul saying "be ye filled with the Holy Spirit" Paul was talking about the things of the spirit, be ever thoughtful of peace joy and righteousness. Not a magical touch or feeling or Godly possession, but a real life earthly cleansed concience and walk.
Quote from: CHB on April 20, 2010, 08:38:29 PM
It says that Christ wasn't given the Spirit by MEASURE. Does this mean that some have more of the Holy Spirit than others? Are there some who don't have any of the Holy Spirit at all? Spiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.
CHB
Actually, John 3:34 has that meaning added by the translators of the KJV. This is indicated by the use of italics. "...for God giveth not the Spirit by measure
unto Him." This is how the Concordant Literal puts it: "For He Whom God commissions is speaking God's declarations, for
God is not giving the spirit by measure."
Someone once said, "Where ever there is any of God, there is all of God." One either has the Holy Spirit or does not. This is why the request of Elisha to Elijah, desiring of him a double portion of his Spirit, Elijah said was a very hard thing he had asked. Commentators debate whether "the double" was like one views a double of one's self in a mirror, or was it twice as much he wanted. The fact all of God is inherent in His giving of His Spirit to us resolves this difficulty. There were twice as many "miracles" or spiritual prodigies recorded performed by Elisha as Elijah.
I have conceived of being "filled" with the Spirit as referring to both the intensity of His radiation as well as the extent of our reception. It also seems He emanates in differing aspects of being.
Quote from: Dallas on April 21, 2010, 04:55:16 AM
QuoteSpiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.
CHB
Now I don't mean to argue you, but...when the writers of the bible penned spiritual did they have that definition? My point is, when you look up spiritual in the dictionary it doesn't say that. That is Christianes and distorts the literary meaning.
The bible talks about men who don't have God's spirit working in them as such but are reffered to as spiritual men. Shouldn't we, to keep the meaning of the literature, read words with word meaning?
New agers don't believe in God, yet they are refered to as spiritual people as is the proper word usage.
Dallas
I believe there's more than one spirit, as in, not everything that has to do with "a spirit" is of the
Holy Spirit. "test the spirits to see if they be of God..."
Something very edifying I recommend: go through 1st and 2nd Corinthians and mark every occurrence of every form of the word "spirit," "spirit's, spirits, spiritual, etc." (I did that with a blue pencil.) Examine the context each time and what "spirit, spiritual" means becomes better understood. The Corinthians were rather immature and un-spiritual, as evidenced by the first letter to them. God was correcting that deficiency with His communication to them. 2nd Corinthians was said by Watchman Nee to be perhaps the most spiritual book in the New Testament if not in the entire Bible.
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)
`I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire, whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'(Mat 3:11-12)
and others mocking said, --`They are full of sweet wine;'
and Peter having stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and declared to them, `Men, Jews! and all those dwelling in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and harken to my sayings, for these are not drunken, as ye take it up, for it is the third hour of the day. `But this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel: And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; and also upon My men-servants, and upon My maid-servants, in those days, I will pour out of My Spirit, and they shall prophesy;
(Act 2:13-18)
They, therefore, indeed, having come together, were questioning him, saying, `Lord, dost thou at this time restore the reign to Israel?' and he said unto them, `It is not yours to know times or seasons that the Father did appoint in His own authority; but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.'
(Act 1:6-8)
I believe Jesus had the Holy Spirit within Him even before birth(Lk 1:41), but there was clearly an anointing of the Spirit that "came upon" Him after His baptism by John. It was an anointing for ministry. I believe the "coming upon"
that the 120 experienced was this same anointing for ministry that Jesus had received at His baptism, to be multiplied in the Body at Pentecost. "You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses unto me...." Jesus apparently (according to Peter's declaration in the first presentation of the gospel (Ac 2:33) received the Holy Spirit in a substantially greater way after His ascension for the purpose of distributing (being the fountain head of the living waters) to believers- for the same anointing unto ministry. The result of that anointing was effective priesthood, as they were "all as one soul" and the grace of God and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied and the Lord added to the church daily such as were chosen for deliverance.
Jesus Himself taught that the Holy Spirit would come unto men in a way that had not yet occurred
"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
(Joh 16:7-15)
For me, it isn't important to define all the "measures" in which the Holy Spirit has been in the world and involved in the dealings of God with men- IMO it really doesnt matter that much, it is what it is. I do think it is important that believers understand that the "coming upon" of the Spirit for the anointing to minister as sons of God is still
available and is in fact, the imperative cure for most of what ails the Body of Christ today. If Jesus needed it in order to fulfill His course, we need it as well, in order to be effective witnesses unto Him in this present evil age. I don't think it is a one time experience, but is renewed through prayer and hearing with faith. I don't think it is exclusive to any sign or gift. I think it must be maintained corporately in some measure. "The Spirit and the Bride say Come." This saying was fulfilled by the outpouring of the Spirit upon the Bride of Christ in Acts- and they came as the Lord added daily. I think it is fulfilled in the same way today. "Today if you hear His voice." As with all things spiritual- it isn't the definition but the real experience walked out with God. Being defines itself in manifestation of truth.
"And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
(Act 4:29-32)
A Song of Ascents, of David.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
It is like the precious oil upon the head,
Coming down upon the beard, Even Aaron's beard,
Coming down upon the edge of his robes.
It is like the dew of Hermon
Coming down upon the mountains of Zion;
For there the LORD commanded the blessing--life forever.
(Psa 133:1-3)
This is in the Message Translation
2 Thessalonians 2
6-8You'll also remember that I told you the Anarchist is being held back until just the right time. That doesn't mean that the spirit of anarchy is not now at work. It is, secretly and underground. But the time will come when the Anarchist will no longer be held back, but will be let loose. But don't worry. The Master Jesus will be right on his heels and blow him away. The Master appears and—puff!—the Anarchist is out of there.
Hebrews 10
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. From a previous thread about being perfect
. . . 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
The spirit is life. If I'm not alive, there is no spirit in me. His spirit brings life. We as spiritual beings can be distracted with the aspect of a spirit realm that is not pursuing the nature of Christ. We can go to extremes on anything and everything. But as long as I'm living and breathing, I see that "His" spirit is what's allowing life to manifest in me.
The one thing that can restrain the fulness of that life is . . .me. My thinking mind can veil the completeness of the Spirit manifesting in me. My carnal nature is the veil that covers. Not from a protective perspective, but from a blind one. The river that flows is what happens when the alignment within us once again returns to it's original position. The baptism is a form of death, burial and resurrection. Be it water or spirit, something dies and resurrects. Being baptized in the spirit is experiencing carnal death just as water baptism is experiencing carnal death.
However, just as there are different levels of ministry in the tabernacle leading into the holy of holies, there are also different levels of maturity and even different levels of dying that allows the spirit to flow from a trickle to a flood, it's all based on where our humility level is in our relationship with him.
Quote from: NathanThis is in the Message Translation
2 Thessalonians 2
6-8You'll also remember that I told you the Anarchist is being held back until just the right time. That doesn't mean that the spirit of anarchy is not now at work. It is, secretly and underground. But the time will come when the Anarchist will no longer be held back, but will be let loose. But don't worry. The Master Jesus will be right on his heels and blow him away. The Master appears and—puff!—the Anarchist is out of there.
That's wild.
He calls the 'mystery of iniquity' the 'Anarchist.'
It's long been known that those who promote anarchy are really trying to destroy a society so that they can take it over and rule it with an iron fist. [see the french revolution],
Very interesting.
"anarchy"a state of society without government or law.
2.
political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
3.
a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
4.
confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.
Quote from: reFORMer on April 21, 2010, 06:56:54 AM
Something very edifying I recommend: go through 1st and 2nd Corinthians and mark every occurrence of every form of the word "spirit," "spirit's, spirits, spiritual, etc." (I did that with a blue pencil.) Examine the context each time and what "spirit, spiritual" means becomes better understood. The Corinthians were rather immature and un-spiritual, as evidenced by the first letter to them. God was correcting that deficiency with His communication to them. 2nd Corinthians was said by Watchman Nee to be perhaps the most spiritual book in the New Testament if not in the entire Bible.
:thumbsup: Thanks James
you are right 1 and 2 Cor does explain the mystery of godliness
with Christ and the Church / His Body
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy
great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world, received up into glory.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: jabcat on April 21, 2010, 06:38:58 AM
Quote from: Dallas on April 21, 2010, 04:55:16 AM
QuoteSpiritual to me means that Christ Spirit or Holy Spirit is living and working in me.
CHB
Now I don't mean to argue you, but...when the writers of the bible penned spiritual did they have that definition? My point is, when you look up spiritual in the dictionary it doesn't say that. That is Christianes and distorts the literary meaning.
The bible talks about men who don't have God's spirit working in them as such but are reffered to as spiritual men. Shouldn't we, to keep the meaning of the literature, read words with word meaning?
New agers don't believe in God, yet they are refered to as spiritual people as is the proper word usage.
Dallas
I believe there's more than one spirit, as in, not everything that has to do with "a spirit" is of the Holy Spirit. "test the spirits to see if they be of God..."
Amen jabcat!!! I was just thinking this while reading Dallas post. There are different spirits. There is a spirit of man and a spirit of beast. The Holy Spirit. "The spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). Sounds like this one is the works of the flesh. We have seducing spirits. (Heb. 12:9) But God is the Father of all spirits.
CHB
In literature and our word usage there are two uses for the word spirit.
Spirit- synonamous with Ghost
Spirit- the things of
Example; Christmas time...many people get caught up in the giving and recieving and decorating and such, the things of Christmas, the spirit of Christmas. That's not a Ghost of Christmas driving it, but people getting caught up in those things.
Just as the spirit of adultery...going out to a bar without your wife and hitting on women, looking at pornography and hiding it from your spouse, lusting after people will lead one to cheating on thier spouse...spirit of adultery, the things of not a ghost.
The spirit of the children of disobedience- lawlessness, defaming God, self-rightouesness...the things of not a ghost.
God the Father of all spirits- The father of all Ghosts
Context again is the key to understanding literature. Without this foundation we would be lost, thrown around by every movement of the sea...