Hi,
This week I read Romans 6:7
When a man dies, he is freed (loosed, delivered) from [the power of] sin [among men].
I was wondering about that. I always thought this was only talking about dying with Christ. To me it now seems to say that when a man dies, his sin nature, his Adam nature, dies. So he is free from the power of sin (christian or not). (I am not saying there is no judgment after dying). So it is not only speaking of us dying with Christ, and by that being freed from the power of sin, but also about a general principle that when a man dies literally, he is being freed from sin?
Hi Abigail. I believe your first hunch was right, in that I believe the context of the scripture is clearly talking about a believer in this life. In fact, Paul a little further down states MORTAL body..blessings
"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness."
Abigail, I have noted that verse as well, and love it! There is an Old Testament prelude to it, in the Law of the Jubilee. You see, at a set time, every fifty/fifty-one years, the trumpet would be blown, and every man or woman who had sold himself or herself into servitude for whatever reason, went free to return to his/her lands and families. In the same manner, in the resurrection, we will all go free of our servitude to sin.
I believe Jesus Christ was always Spirit and came in the likeness of sinful flesh [WORD OF GOD in SPIRIT form [conceived of Holy Spirit born of woman under the law of life and death ] making him everything ..He had a mortal body as we do , this corruptible condition is what God whom is Spirit , had intended all along , the woman[True Church] would be blessed though childbearing godly offspring , these are what inherit "all things " the incorruptible seed is the WORD OF GOD made flesh these scriptures explain what I am trying to convey and only my own opinion 1Peter 1 The Word of the Lord Stands
(Isaiah 40:6-8)
22Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth, so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart.b 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
"All flesh is like grass,
and all its glory like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord stands forever."
And this is the word that was proclaimed to you. the WORD I HAVE SPOKEN WILL JUDGE YOU IN THE LAST DAY John 12 ...47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. the words I have spoken to you are Life John 6 ...62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before? 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64However, there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)...
I KNOW JESUS CHRIST IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE
THE THING IS THE IAM
Exodus 3 Moses at the Burning Bush !!
...13Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" 14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said,
"Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" 15God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations....
[IAM ] ...24Martha replied, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
the SPIRIT OF LIFE IS THE TRUTH and mankind struggles against this truth .and mankind struggles against this truth all the days of his mortal life ... .
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2016, 06:16:59 PM
Hi Abigail. I believe your first hunch was right, in that I believe the context of the scripture is clearly talking about a believer in this life. In fact, Paul a little further down states MORTAL body..blessings
"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness."
:goodpost:
:iagree:
:) I don't know of any teaching in the NT that clearly says physical death frees from spiritual sin (maybe in some sense for those already in the body of Christ/believers). But specifically I don't believe anyone is delivered from sin until they bow and confess Jesus as Lord, either in this age or the next. IMO, it's not the mortal body that determines sinfulness or not. It's the spiritual new birth, which comes from surrendering to Jesus and becoming the new spiritual man - the old man/self dying, the new (Jesus and His righteousness) being taken on as His free gift. I believe the scriptures teach that comes only through heart belief in Jesus when He gives it to each man/woman, at their appointed time - either side of the resurrection. :2c:
Yea, I agree. I see Paul says, "I am crucified with Christ. I have died and Christ lives through me. The life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God."(Gal 2). He also says in Romans 8, "If you do, by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live", and in Ro 6
"The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. 11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin control your mortal body so that you obey its desires....
Jesus told the disciples, "Watch and pray, for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." and I think that is a life message to believers, and according to our measure of faith(which is why we should watch and pray) we have victory over sin as we walk in the Spirit.
i think it clear that we, as believers, are freed from the struggle with sin when the body dies.
If we see sin as "missing the mark", and the mark as loving God with all our heart, soul and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves, we find that walking in His ways is the path the Spirit will empower victory in.
"19For through the Law I died to the Law so that I might live to God. 2" is a great verse for estblishing that grace, which is accessed through faith and prayer, is how we live for God.
So we are freed from sin, objectively, but subjectively we struggle through the Spirit wo "reckon ourselves dead" and it s a progressive victory as we abide in Christ, "Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and fininsher of our faith".
He who has begun a good work in us is faithful and He will finish it.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 07, 2016, 01:00:18 AM
i think it clear that we, as believers, are freed from the struggle with sin when the body dies.
as i was doing some other work, my mind was dwelling on this topic, and thinking along the same lines..
for believers. as in, the struggle with the flesh is over. but imo, for unbelievers, they will still need their moment of either recognizing Jesus as Lord quickly/instantly, up to and including for some, whatever and how long an age of discipline may entail..until they bow and confess.
so to try to be specific to the OP..I believe the answer is yes - for believers. those who are already dead to self and alive in Christ through the new birth. as the mortal takes on the immortal, the struggle is over. but for unbelievers, i don't believe a physical death can produce a spiritual life. It's only through the heart bowing to Jesus as Savior, which brings the new birth.
Quote from: jabcat on November 07, 2016, 01:41:29 AM
but for unbelievers, i don't believe a physical death can produce a spiritual life.
I.M.O; those who died before Christ was even in the age, or had been sacrificed, will have to learn the significance of that event. If they were raised to the spiritual life, they would not realise the price being paid in full, until that was explained. Ergo after that they would probably need the second death so as to be completely spiritual in every regard.
Would seem to be why the last shall be first [those after the crucifixion] and the first shall be last [those before the crucifixion].
So to be free one has to know from what you are freed.
Many people have not even known Him or about Him- hence, I.M.O the need for ages to come to teach that info.
:thumbsup:
i was wondering if this may also have something to do with "which" (first, or second) resurrection.. :dontknow:
I think Christ crucified is a supernatural revelation."No man comes to me except the Father draws him." In John 12 jesus says "As Moses lifted up the serpent on the stick so also must the son of man be lifted up". The He said, "If I am lifted upfrom the earth (speaking of his crucifixion) I will draw all men unto me.
So I think the crucifixion of Jesus(No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down His life for His friends) is the core revelation of the divine nature- that God is love.
When the veil of time is torn away, "every eye will see Him". I think the revelation of that divine love will set multitudes rejoicing, who never knew Him. I also think many will "say to the rocks and the caves, fall on us and hide us". The first effect of the fall was that Adam and Eve hid.
The fire of His love will burn away every veil, every hiding place.
That is why I believe we wii be the lake of fire. "He makes His angels winds, and His messengers flames of fire"
The great cloud of witnesses, wil bear witness to all the remaining adversaries, of the love of God, demonstrating the wisdom of God to the principalities and powers"
"Know you not you will judge the world?"
This was common knowledge among early among early believers(imo), that in the ages to come we will be "ministers of reconciliation".
"so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus". Eph 2
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. ro 8
We were begotten by the word of truth to be a kind of first-fruits of His creation james 1
So I think the adversaries will not know spiritual life until they bow the knee before the revelation of Christ crucified, which is the source of His Lordship and exaltation.(Phil 2 7-11)
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
they way I grasp the resurrection of those who are unbelievers is Him putting a new spirit in them...thus they see what they had not and hear what
they had not[open deaf ears/blind eyes]...His giving of these as well as faith is part of His making all things new. these unbelievers I perceive as being
far off..and believers as near...but He proclaims Peace,Peace..to those both far off and near. The arrangement in Israel of those He called to dwell near..
even the Priests et Levites...who served and ministered.in the temple and Jerusalem...I reckon as those believers in this world.....while the greater number in
Israel.......that were not apportioned by Him to draw near in ministry....are as those not called to service/or to draw near in this world/time,or taught of
Him. the pattern of the Old Temple arrangement..mirrored the spiritual reality of God's Heavenly ministry of reconciliation...morning and evening sacrifices
and the dining rooms and communion/I and the Father will sup with you. a host was given because of transgression and they took away the daily
sacrifices[obedience is better than sacrifice] yet I would have mercy over sacrifice..I am convinced that this pattern is fulfilled in the Spirit by Our High
Priest..that He has made atonement for all sin by His cross once for all time for all men and all sin.
another way I reason these things is the portions of the tribes inheritance in the promised land...some inherited on one side of the Jordan[death of the flesh]
and received the spirit on this side...others[greater multitude] on the other side of the Jordan. they made a 'copy' as a memorial..to the real Jerusalem/
temple/House on the other side.... there was a dispute at one time over it. I reason.......that the inheritance is always of the spirit..and the spirit is the
first-fruit[first resurrection..and some receive on this side a 'token' but always the fullness is on the other side of the Jordan[veil removed/shroud]
Thanks for your responses, brothers and sisters! Made it clear to me!
Another way to look at the judgment of God is that God is a smelter. He values purity. All of His ways lead to purity, and tho religion portrays purity as law, the New Covenant(freedom to love in Christ) portrays purity as a broken and a contrite heart. A humble and forgiving soul is a pure soul in God's site, for"as you forgive, so shall you be forgiven". Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks at the heart, and as James said, love a multitude of sins. So no mater where in the pantheon of time and all the generations of the ages a person falls, God is working to bring purity, in terms of "being perfected in love".
God does not judge arbitrarily. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other."(Psalm 85)
All of God's judgments and disciplines are ultimately destined to reconcile man. As the Potter he sometuimes smashes a vessel that has not taken the shape He intends, but only to remake it according to His purpose and pleasure.
I think one of the best verses on this is "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual ... are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."(Gal 6:1)
"Restore such a one in the spirit of meekness".
No matter how we see the ages playing out in the "administration suitable to the fulness of times" and the "each in his own order" of Christ making all alive, we know that each step, even tho it may in some cases seem severe, leads ultimately to mercy and restoration.
"Peace, peace to those who are near and those who are far away." Some are further away than others, but all will be gathered into one in Christ in the fulness of times. Even among unbelievers there are and always have been righteous people that He knows, in the secrets of their hearts- as Paul taught in Romans 2.
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God...... 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.[/u]
And 2 Timothy 2
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
This ought to be good enough for every believer, as it is our job to simply offer the free gift and warn of the judgment to come, as Jesus and Paul and the prophets and apostles did before us.
Amen,amen!
.."a kind of firstfruits.." strongLy implies further fruits! i.e. if those who rise at Jesus' return (1st resurrection) are firstfruits? who are the later fruits?? I suppose some might say, those who come to belief during the millenium (survivors, etc) but I think it goes much further than that, which is SO very limited. Then "after the thousand years" the adversary is loosed for a time, gathers for war - nothing new there - and a "multitude" surround the city of God - to me it's seems poignant that this crowd dies before the 2nd resurrection (of all those not yet believing/reconciled/repented) - so I assume they too rise.. And that all who have ever lived, rise, is to me, an important point that death is not the - it's all over, no hope after death - that so many think it is.. For He is love.. and if He were unable to save them ( :doh: :laughing7: as if!) since He iS love, wouldn't it be more merciful, logical, and organized to simply not resurrect them.. Oh, but of course many think every person's judgment 'day' is at their death and it's instantly 'to heaven or hell' with them.. Where anyone got that idea is beyond me - except from pagan belief that is!!! Including any "Jewish myths" that say so (kabbalah, etc?).. Because I surely cannot see it in the Old Testament (as written).
:thumbsup: :banana: