How do you reconcile
2 Corinthians 5:19 (New International Version)
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
And
Colossians 1:20 (New International Version)
20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
with the idea that Jesus said to forgive that your Father may forgive you (otherwise you will not be forgiven)? How can He not hold their sins against mankind and yet not forgive those who do not forgive or those that blasphemy the Holy Spirit (even though it's just for the age)? How is that God being at peace with mankind or not counting their sins against them?
This has been bothering me and any insight would be appreciated. Thanks guys!
Quote from: Tim B on August 29, 2009, 09:06:32 AM
How do you reconcile
2 Corinthians 5:19 (New International Version)
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
with the idea that Jesus said to forgive that your Father may forgive you (otherwise you will not be forgiven)? How can He not hold their sins against mankind and yet not forgive those who do not forgive or those that blasphemy the Holy Spirit (even though it's just for the age)? How is that God being at peace with mankind?
This has been bothering me and any insight would be appreciated. Thanks guys!
Well the phrase "hold against" is a good place to start. Why do we think of God's judgments on people to be a manifestation of "holding against" rather than the biggest favor he could do for us?
Hebrews 12:5-8
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
" My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
I see the chastening of the Lord to be one of the most loving things he can do and not as an expression of him "holding sin AGAINST us." God held our sins against us by the law BECAUSE
the law did not bring cleansing unto righteousness. That is so important to understand. The law actually held us in bondage TO sin and then continued to attack our conscience. It was a dire situation. The law counted our sins against us, which God is no longer doing. Rather now, His judgments are FOR us not against us. The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death. That is why Peter said "For the time is come for judgment to begin with the house of God."
What I wish people would understand is that God's mercy is expressed THROUGH chastening because it delivers us from sin. As it says in another part of Hebrews, God's chastening leads to the peaceable fruit of righteousness. How merciful is that? VERY! God does not express mercy by allowing us to sit and stew in our sin all the while considering us "positionally" righteous. He would be leaving us as slaves and that is NOT merciful at all.
Think about this: when it came time for God to deliver the Jews from Egypt, did actually deliver them, or did he say "you are all positionally delivered" then leave it at that?
....
A couple of thoughts.
Jesus said, "which is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven,
or to take up thy bed and walk?"
This statement of His has made me think about what you said too.
Seth, I noticed YOU said:
The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death.
Jesus was "made" a curse for us.
Taking your statment that you spoke above, would you say that
Jesus "allowed" the judgement "of the world" to crucify him???
since he laid down his life "willingly."
But He rose with a GREATER AUTHORITY that the one that crucified
him, and it is written "if they had known who it was they were
crucifying, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory!
Taking your statment again, concerning the judgement of the "world"
is to PUT to death the flesh.........
would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"
Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'
So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?
Quote from: Redlettervoice on August 29, 2009, 07:24:19 PM
....
A couple of thoughts.
Jesus said, "which is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven,
or to take up thy bed and walk?"
This statement of His has made me think about what you said too.
Seth, I noticed YOU said:
The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death.
Jesus was "made" a curse for us.
Taking your statment that you spoke above, would you say that
Jesus "allowed" the judgement "of the world" to crucify him???
since he laid down his life "willingly."
But He rose with a GREATER AUTHORITY that the one that crucified
him, and it is written "if they had known who it was they were
crucifying, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory!
Taking your statment again, concerning the judgement of the "world"
is to PUT to death the flesh.........
would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"
Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'
So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?
To the bolded part, YES! Exactly. The cross really shows how the flesh and Spirit are opposing forces. In the flesh, Christ's death was an unmitigated murder. He have his life willingly, yet it was still a murder because it was slaying of a man who did nothing wrong.
Jesus said that the judgment of the world was the death that he would die.
SO, what Romans 6 reveals is that Christ's death is the likeness of the demise of our old carnal mindset, our old man, the flesh. And his resurrection is the likeness of our walk in newness of life. The cross represents the internal judgment of God against our sinful flesh so that we may walk new. And it was by that literal death two thousand years ago, that made Christ's resurrection possible, to be a life giving spirit. This is what being baptized into his death means. The life that comes with that death is simultaneous. In other words, to die to the flesh IS to live.
By being baptized into Christ's death we are baptized into the death of our flesh-mindedness by the resurrected life, the Spiritual baptism. The resurrected life brings death to death, and life to the one once bound to death. That is the judgment of the world. And that is why God still chastises people.
Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2009, 07:31:10 PM
Quote from: Redlettervoice on August 29, 2009, 07:24:19 PM
....
A couple of thoughts.
Jesus said, "which is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven,
or to take up thy bed and walk?"
This statement of His has made me think about what you said too.
Seth, I noticed YOU said:
The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death.
Jesus was "made" a curse for us.
Taking your statment that you spoke above, would you say that
Jesus "allowed" the judgement "of the world" to crucify him???
since he laid down his life "willingly."
But He rose with a GREATER AUTHORITY that the one that crucified
him, and it is written "if they had known who it was they were
crucifying, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory!
Taking your statment again, concerning the judgement of the "world"
is to PUT to death the flesh.........
would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"
Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'
So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?
To the bolded part, YES! Exactly. The cross really shows how the flesh and Spirit are opposing forces. In the flesh, Christ's death was an unmitigated murder. He have his life willingly, yet it was still a murder because it was slaying of a man who did nothing wrong.
Jesus said that the judgment of the world was the death that he would die.
SO, what Romans 6 reveals is that Christ's death is the likeness of the demise of our old carnal mindset, our old man, the flesh. And his resurrection is the likeness of our walk in newness of life. The cross represents the internal judgment of God against our sinful flesh so that we may walk new. And it was by that literal death two thousand years ago, that made Christ's resurrection possible, to be a life giving spirit. This is what being baptized into his death means. The life that comes with that death is simultaneous. In other words, to die to the flesh IS to live.
By being baptized into Christ's death we are baptized into the death of our flesh-mindedness by the resurrected life, the Spiritual baptism. The resurrected life brings death to death, and life to the one once bound to death. That is the judgment of the world. And that is why God still chastises people.
Good word, Seth
"
For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" Titus 2 12His teaching is grace; his grace is teaching.
Grace and peace
Brandon
Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2009, 07:31:10 PM
Quote from: Redlettervoice on August 29, 2009, 07:24:19 PM
....
A couple of thoughts.
Jesus said, "which is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven,
or to take up thy bed and walk?"
This statement of His has made me think about what you said too.
Seth, I noticed YOU said:
The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death.
Jesus was "made" a curse for us.
Taking your statment that you spoke above, would you say that
Jesus "allowed" the judgement "of the world" to crucify him???
since he laid down his life "willingly."
But He rose with a GREATER AUTHORITY that the one that crucified
him, and it is written "if they had known who it was they were
crucifying, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory!
Taking your statment again, concerning the judgement of the "world"
is to PUT to death the flesh.........
would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"
Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'
So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?
To the bolded part, YES! Exactly. The cross really shows how the flesh and Spirit are opposing forces. In the flesh, Christ's death was an unmitigated murder. He have his life willingly, yet it was still a murder because it was slaying of a man who did nothing wrong.
Jesus said that the judgment of the world was the death that he would die.
SO, what Romans 6 reveals is that Christ's death is the likeness of the demise of our old carnal mindset, our old man, the flesh. And his resurrection is the likeness of our walk in newness of life. The cross represents the internal judgment of God against our sinful flesh so that we may walk new. And it was by that literal death two thousand years ago, that made Christ's resurrection possible, to be a life giving spirit. This is what being baptized into his death means. The life that comes with that death is simultaneous. In other words, to die to the flesh IS to live.
By being baptized into Christ's death we are baptized into the death of our flesh-mindedness by the resurrected life, the Spiritual baptism. The resurrected life brings death to death, and life to the one once bound to death. That is the judgment of the world. And that is why God still chastises people.
AMEN G :icon_flower:
NOW is THE JUDGMENT of this world and ***NOW*** is the day of salvation
Having been baptized into HIS DEATH we must strive, as did Paul, TO KNOW the power OF HIS RESURRECTION!!
Rom 6:3-8 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him
for me RL these verses sum up what you ask... :icon_flower:
Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation
Actually it has to do with the two covenants.
The Old covenant was a duty orientated covenant. You do this and this will happen type thing. The Jew was bound to do then recieve.
Such other problems like this one...
The new covenant of Jeremiah 32 (Hebrews8) says that "All will know Me from the least to the greatest because I will forget their sin and remember their iniquity no longer."
ALL WILL KNOW ME....
O.k. now what about the big problem in Matthew 7..."Not everyone who says Lord Lord will ebeter into the kingdom of heaven....(why? keep reading).... depart from me you who practice LAWLESSNESS for you never KNEW Me."
Quite the contradiction eh?
The new covenant says all will know yet Jesus said leave me I never knew you.
It's about timeliness. The old covenant allows for the punishment and casting away of people bound to that covenant, the new covenant alots no such action. While the old covenant had power many were discarded, under the new all are accepted.
When Jesus said if you forgive then you will be forgiven He was still living in a world under the old covenant. He was respecting that which was in power and related to the people appropriately. The law is conditional so Jesus gave them a condition.
I think it's also about the judgement you bring upon yourself as a result of God's universal law; such as you reap what you sow. If you cannot forgive someone, your hardened heart is not able to receive real forgiveness. If you can't forgive, you will never experiance the freedom of knowing that you have been truly forgiven.
just my :2c:
Quote from: aspiring son on August 29, 2009, 08:24:47 PM
I think it's also about the judgement you bring upon yourself as a result of God's universal law; such as you reap what you sow. If you cannot forgive someone, your hardened heart is not able to receive real forgiveness. If you can't forgive, you will never experiance the freedom of knowing that you have been truly forgiven.
just my :2c:
Amen. God's judgments are about having us reap what we sow so that we start planning better seeds.
Seth -
QuoteAmen. God's judgments are about having us reap what we sow so that we start planning better seeds.
You actually think you live in a world that you get what you deserve based on your actions?
Thats completely against the truth of grace, getting what you do no based on what you deserve... when Paul quoted that it was an old covenant promise.
If that's what you want then i hope you get what you plant, that should again remind you why you need Jesus...
I don't get what I deserve... I get what I get because of what Jesus did. I am more than excited to teach everyone the same very truth, you are free from what you have done as far as punishment goes... however you will recieve from people on this planet don't live in a grace understanding, thank God Im not part of this system anymore.
When you approach someone and punch them in the face, if that is not a grace oprientated person you will recieve what you deserve, but if peace joy and righteousness is in thier heart you will recieve forgiveness.
Just as God gave you...
Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2009, 08:43:37 PM
Quote from: aspiring son on August 29, 2009, 08:24:47 PM
I think it's also about the judgement you bring upon yourself as a result of God's universal law; such as you reap what you sow. If you cannot forgive someone, your hardened heart is not able to receive real forgiveness. If you can't forgive, you will never experiance the freedom of knowing that you have been truly forgiven.
just my :2c:
Amen. God's judgments are about having us reap what we sow so that we start planning better seeds.
Have you ever beat yourself up over and over for what you feel may have been a bad choice?
I do this way more than I would like I am not sure if it is a hardened heart or self doubt or doublemindness.
I do know we can put our own self in some harsh judgment, I do hope this is all the judgement there is for me.
Beating yourself up over a bad choice isn't a necessarily a hard heart; it's self condemnation. That is something we all wrestle with as we try to further understand God.
Two meanings of grace are- Divine influence on something, or unmerited favor. We receive both. Condemnation can be a blocker of seeing God's unmerited favor. I know sometimes it's easier said than done, but when we are quickened by the truth we know there truly is no condemnation in Christ.
Rom 8-1
Quote from: Dallas on August 29, 2009, 09:00:59 PM
Seth - QuoteAmen. God's judgments are about having us reap what we sow so that we start planning better seeds.
You actually think you live in a world that you get what you deserve based on your actions?
Thats completely against the truth of grace, getting what you do no based on what you deserve... when Paul quoted that it was an old covenant promise.
If that's what you want then i hope you get what you plant, that should again remind you why you need Jesus...
I don't get what I deserve... I get what I get because of what Jesus did. I am more than excited to teach everyone the same very truth, you are free from what you have done as far as punishment goes... however you will recieve from people on this planet don't live in a grace understanding, thank God Im not part of this system anymore.
When you approach someone and punch them in the face, if that is not a grace oprientated person you will recieve what you deserve, but if peace joy and righteousness is in thier heart you will recieve forgiveness.
Just as God gave you...
Jesus paid the debt for all sin. However, if you commit a crime, you still go to jail. Like wise in the spirit, if you are an unforgiving person you will not know wht forgiveness is truly; UNTIL God has quickened you. Then you can see the error of your ways, only by the spirit of God.
Most people are unforgiving to others because there is something inside they cannot forgive of themselves.
As I said earlier, grace is also unmerited favor which is for all of us. But that does not negate the fact that there are consequences to our thinking and actions, for the purpose of teaching.
Grace and peace
Brandon
QuoteJesus paid the debt for all sin. However, if you commit a crime, you still go to jail. Like wise in the spirit, if you are an unforgiving person you will not know wht forgiveness is truly; UNTIL God has quickened you. Then you can see the error of your ways, only by the spirit of God.
Most people are unforgiving to others because there is something inside they cannot forgive of themselves.
As I said earlier, grace is also unmerited favor which is for all of us. But that does not negate the fact that there are consequences to our thinking and actions, for the purpose of teaching.
Grace and peace
All these things you mentioned are still true for unbelievers. For instance, an unbeliever can learn from mistakes, so what you are saying is the spirit of God is alive and working in the hearts of unbelievers?
Consequences is not a biblical principle, it's cause and effect. Not everyone learns based on this idea, so then does that mean they don't go through cause and effect? Of course they do, everyone does. If God where driving this principle in order to enlighten everyone cause and effect would have worked out sin.
Truth is, you get alot of what you do back.... not a God principle we are to live by, a simple bit of reality.
For just ask all the people who are now broke from tithing. They sure sowed alot, now their reward is a lack of food and rent in the rears...
If God invented sowing and reaping to teach then why hasn't the churched learned... they have been through decade after decade of civil war within themselves yet continue to fight. If God were leading such a cause how come He hasn't succeeded.
Because cause and effect are real, no this mystical idea of Christian sowing and reaping.
I believe that God is working in everybody, even if they don't know it yet. And they don't know it yet because for the time they are blind to the divine nature , not knowing all they go through is leading them to their savior and spiritual awakening and redemption. And Christ and his body are being prepared to show them this deliverence.
The curse of sin has made some murderers, theives, alchohlics, etc. What they ( and we in the past) have sown is not good, so we have not reaped good things. But by the goodness of God, we are brought to repentance. So with goodenss sown to us, we plant the good seed. All creation needs is to be sown the ultimate good seed within everything, which will happen. It's true we don't always learn from it. Some do, some don't.
Unbelivers cannot work out salvation through reaping and sowing because even sowing good is a far cry from sowing perfection. Jesus sowed perfection to us all, He will soon be reaping. :bigGrin:
Blessings
This is a good thread for learning !! :thumbsup:
QuoteI believe that God is working in everybody, even if they don't know it yet. And they don't know it yet because for the time they are blind to the divine nature , not knowing all they go through is leading them to their savior and spiritual awakening and redemption. And Christ and his body are being prepared to show them this deliverence.
The curse of sin has made some murderers, theives, alchohlics, etc. What they ( and we in the past) have sown is not good, so we have not reaped good things. But by the goodness of God, we are brought to repentance. So with goodenss sown to us, we plant the good seed. All creation needs is to be sown the ultimate good seed within everything, which will happen. It's true we don't always learn from it. Some do, some don't.
Unbelivers cannot work out salvation through reaping and sowing because even sowing good is a far cry from sowing perfection. Jesus sowed perfection to us all, He will soon be reaping.
- Aspiring Son
First off let me say, Thank God finally some discussion and not pointless arguing :thumbsup:
This stuff I bolded because it's biblical.
These quotes though I can't seem to find a biblical concept to back it.
QuoteBut by the goodness of God, we are brought to repentance.
Man can't repent. We don't have it in us, hence the hundreds of years God gave Israel to repent and they couldn't so eventually the understanding of the need for a saviour enveloped their whole understanding. God doesn't show any interest in us repenting due to Jesus, in fact it only seems that now Jesus has repented us. Repententance was for the Jew to return to the covenant God made with Abraham. Here Peter warns Israel to repent, and even tells them the punishment they are trying to save themsleves from will come upon their generation, as Jesus taught them in Matthew 24-25.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
Peter didn't just get that idea from thin air, he learned it from the scriptures;
Jeremiah 5:3 "O LORD, do not Your eyes look for truth? You have smitten them,But they did not weaken;You have consumed them,But they refused to take correction They have made their faces harder than rock;They have refused to repent."
Jeremiah 8:6 "I have listened and heard, They have spoken what is not right; No man repented of his wickedness,Saying, 'What have I done?'Everyone turned to his course,Like a horse charging into the battle,"
Israel could not repent and thus where punished by the covenant agreement. That brought the end to that agreement, then the new agreement of God's promise to Jesus of inclusion by Jesus' blood, not our repentance. If the Jew couldn't do what makes anyone think they can? The fool's adage that some how the Holy Spirit came to empower them over sin? No, they would overcome through the washing away of their sin by His blood, by His sacrifice, by His action.
QuoteSo with goodenss sown to us
There is absolutley no biblical foundation to the thought that Jesus somehow left a peice of something with us to leads us anywhere? (If that's what you were sugesting) What He did do is, we are now the rightouesness of God in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthinas 5), as He is so are we in this world (1 John), If Christ be in you the Holy Spirit is one with you (Romans), You are complete in Him (colossians)
No where do I see that you are being turned into a good thing, but i see that you have been turned into divinity, not a spark given, tranformation has taken place.
.
Yes, Dallas, who hath first given to God and HE recompensed
for of Him and thru Him are all things and all things are for
your sakes.
It is the goodness of God that leads man to repent.
So many good words in this thread, I won't address them all
but this is a good thread I would recommend this reading.
Quote from: Redlettervoice on August 30, 2009, 06:04:25 AM
.
Yes, Dallas, who hath first given to God and HE recompensed
for of Him and thru Him are all things and all things are for
your sakes.
It is the goodness of God that leads man to repent.
So many good words in this thread, I won't address them all
but this is a good thread I would recommend this reading.
Hi! RedLetterVoice
Many months ago I created this Flash Presentation to add as StolenSpirit Web Content.
It is titled, "How is God great?".
I would like to share it with you as it is very pertinent to your testimony here saying, "It is the goodness of God that leads man to repent"
It is better to view it with Sound ON.
LINK: http://www.stolenspirit.com/_SS_FlashPresentation/_SS-HowIsGodGreat/HowIsGodGreat.html
Quote from: Dallas on August 29, 2009, 09:00:59 PM
You actually think you live in a world that you get what you deserve based on your actions?
Thats completely against the truth of grace, getting what you do no based on what you deserve... when Paul quoted that it was an old covenant promise.
If that's what you want then i hope you get what you plant, that should again remind you why you need Jesus...
Wow, you want me to reap what I sow so that I learn....
Interesting.
Paul said that the old covenant method was that it condemned for sin without the power to save FROM sin. The difference between the old and new covenant is the power of the Spirit of Christ, who is able to save from sin, where the law only condemned.
QuoteWhen you approach someone and punch them in the face, if that is not a grace oprientated person you will recieve what you deserve, but if peace joy and righteousness is in thier heart you will recieve forgiveness.
The power of the Spirit is in saving someone from WANTING to punch someone in the face in the first place. That is salvation from the FLESH. That is why Christ died on the cross and was raised as a life giving Spirit: TO SAVE FROM DEATH.
If you think people are saved while still living IN death then you are WAY off the whole point of the gospel and WHY it is good news. It's not good news to tell people who are suffering in sin that they are already saved. It IS good news to tell them of a way to be saved from the slavery they are in.
Dallas,
Good Morning. This is where we are agreeing, and I don't think we are far off.
Under the old covenant, eye for eye, tooth for tooth etc. is literally reapig what you sow. I also feel what you are saying about cause and affect is similar to my take on reaping and sowing. But Christ changed the method of reaping what was sown.
"But awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God; I speak this to your shame.
But some will say, How are the dead raised up? with what body do they come?
Fool! That which you sow is notquckened, except it die." 1 Cor 15 34-36
" So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, there is a spiritual body." 1 Cor 15 42-44
So with that Christ did not reap death and sin for dying under the curse. And because of that, neither shall we.
2. " Or are you ( so blind as to) trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long suffering and patience? Are you mindful or actually ignorant ( of the fact ) God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent( chage your mind and inner man to accept God's will)? " ROM 2-4 Amplified
This is what I meant by the goodness sown to us. Christ's resurrection and the spirit of Christ leading us to repent.
3. I absolutely agree that no one can obey the old covenant. I beleive that whole heartedly. However, I do believe the holy spirit can keep us from sinning.
" Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you fautless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God and Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominoin and power, both NOW and FOREVER." Jude 24-25
You are right that it is Christ's blood that saves us. But in the blood we have access into the holy of holies, the inner most sanctified realm of Christ. And we are to not despise the chastening of the Lord for,
" Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but greivous; nevertheless afterward it yields fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" Heb 12-5This to me is the spirit working within us, burning away sin.
Matthew Ch 13 Jesus talks of the parable of the seeds sown. Cares of the world, no roots, etc. are all mental things. Everything we take in and let in our hearts can be viewed as some kind of seed, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If the seeds are the cares of this world. Then that's what are physical lives will emulate. If the holy spirit is working in us and delivering us from our iniquities, than that's what will be shown to the world as witness.
Blessings
Brandon
Quote from: aspiring son on August 30, 2009, 04:32:09 PM
Dallas,
Good Morning. This is where we are agreeing, and I don't think we are far off.
Under the old covenant, eye for eye, tooth for tooth etc. is literally reapig what you sow. I also feel what you are saying about cause and affect is similar to my take on reaping and sowing. But Christ changed the method of reaping what was sown.
"But awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God; I speak this to your shame.
But some will say, How are the dead raised up? with what body do they come?
Fool! That which you sow is notquckened, except it die." 1 Cor 15 34-36
" So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, there is a spiritual body." 1 Cor 15 42-44
So with that Christ did not reap death and sin for dying under the curse. And because of that, neither shall we.
2. " Or are you ( so blind as to) trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long suffering and patience? Are you mindful or actually ignorant ( of the fact ) God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent( chage your mind and inner man to accept God's will)? " ROM 2-4 Amplified
This is what I meant by the goodness sown to us. Christ's resurrection and the spirit of Christ leading us to repent.
3. I absolutely agree that no one can obey the old covenant. I beleive that whole heartedly. However, I do believe the holy spirit can keep us from sinning.
" Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you fautless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God and Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominoin and power, both NOW and FOREVER." Jude 24-25
You are right that it is Christ's blood that saves us. But in the blood we have access into the holy of holies, the inner most sanctified realm of Christ. And we are to not despise the chastening of the Lord for,
" Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but greivous; nevertheless afterward it yields fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" Heb 12-5This to me is the spirit working within us, burning away sin.
Matthew Ch 13 Jesus talks of the parable of the seeds sown. Cares of the world, no roots, etc. are all mental things. Everything we take in and let in our hearts can be viewed as some kind of seed, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If the seeds are the cares of this world. Then that's what are physical lives will emulate. If the holy spirit is working in us and delivering us from our iniquities, than that's what will be shown to the world as witness.
Blessings
Brandon
Hi!
I really enjoyed these comments.
If you don't mind, I would like to add some additional thoughts which might be worthwhile to attach to this Thread.
The kernel has the invisible life in itself and this life is the beginning of the new plant. The kernel does not produce a kernel, but a new plant which will produce new kernels later. The new life starts at regeneration and it grows just like a plant develops from the seed. The seed is not made alive, it dies. But that which was its life develops into a new plant.
In the same way the physical body that dies is not made alive again but decomposes in the same way as the outside of the kernel. The inner life develops into a new appearance, different from the seed, but in keeping with the laws of life that are hidden in it.
From every seed an individual body develops. It may be a tree, a shrub, or some variation of corn or other kind of plant. The plant that develops may be compared with the spiritual body. The seed that vanished decomposes to dust, (a picture of the physical body), but the plant (spiritual body) develops in another atmosphere (kingdom of God) where there is light and air and sun.
When the Lord returns, those who slept in Christ will be raised; they will arise first. Their spiritual body is raised, (1Cor 15:44), but their physical body which has long returned to dust and will not be raised.
Those who have fallen asleep have rested from their labors, but at a sign of the Most High they will arise and take up (resume) their work. The power of God gives substance to their spiritual bodies, giving it flesh and bones, similar to that of the glorified Lord. At all times, however the spiritual body remains spiritual, that is subjected to spiritual laws only, not to earthly laws. For that reason it is not confined in time or place; this body cannot be localized or entered into a time-scheme.
.
Whatever God has sown in your garden, "will" come up!
Isa 61:11 -
For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
Just look at that wording "spring forth" .....it is all thru that part of
Isa. . . it shall spring forth, shall ye not know it? etc.
Quote
would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"
Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'
So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?
I was thinking of this over the last few days, Carlene - about God's judgement being unto LIFE. It is YOU who have brought me to think about that from the times we've talked. The blood of Christ speaking GREATER things than the blood of Abel. Christ swallows up death. Christ is a shock absorber. It is not in man's nature to be that way. It is only by the Spirit of God that men/people become that way after that pattern of Christ.... "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing...." This is the opposite of the judgement that the world judges. This world is OPPOSED to mercy! Isn't that a shame!
Anne
Quote
Most people are unforgiving to others because there is something inside they cannot forgive of themselves.
If this is true, all the more reason why we do our own selves a favor by praying for our enemies -- knowing that they are in bondage
that causes them to be unable to accept love. Does that make sense? Another way of thinking of it - since we are all connected,
to hold something against someone is like holding it against your own self because we are one body. Now I'm asking myself, what
prevents the Holy Spirit from overturning all this anger in so many people on the earth? Why can it not just be done? Do you think
it is possible that one day everything will change in the twinkling of an eye when we are not even looking for it? I have been thinking
about that this week as well. About how so many of us think the world is just going to get worse and worse until no one can even live
on the earth. Maybe that is not how it will happen though. Maybe God will 'SUDDENLY come into his temple'! Wow!
QuoteChrist is a shock absorber
I like that. :bigGrin:
Thanks for adding as well. Gil,
Blessings.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 30, 2009, 06:15:02 PM
Quote
Most people are unforgiving to others because there is something inside they cannot forgive of themselves.
Maybe God will 'SUDDENLY come into his temple'! Wow!
And what temple would that be?
"Know ye not that
ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
Don't be holdin' yer breath; 'cuz Jesus certainly has no plans to suddenly come.
After all, it is a growing process ... a development process ... a maturing process. So, there is nothing sudden about it. Jesus appears in you (His temple); as His words and thoughts 'become flesh' in you.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 30, 2009, 06:02:24 PM
Quote
would you say that the JUDGEMENT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
IS TO 'BRING LIFE?"
Is that what "judgement unto life" means?'
So HIS Judgement "follows" the crucifixion?
I was thinking of this over the last few days, Carlene - about God's judgement being unto LIFE. It is YOU who have brought me to think about that from the times we've talked. The blood of Christ speaking GREATER things than the blood of Abel. Christ swallows up death. Christ is a shock absorber. It is not in man's nature to be that way. It is only by the Spirit of God that men/people become that way after that pattern of Christ.... "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing...." This is the opposite of the judgement that the world judges. This world is OPPOSED to mercy! Isn't that a shame!
Anne
Amen Anne. It isn't just having some realization of the cross that changes a mans heart. It is the actual supernatural work of the Spirit that does it, which is why man cannot credit himself.
Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for
it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
It is not that we works so that we can become saved. It is rather that salvation from what Paul called "the body of this death" is what CHANGES our works, so that rather than being sinful, we put on a mind that doesn't even WANT to do sinful things.
2 Peter 1:3-4
His
divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become
PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to
SALVATION THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Many Christians, including me in my upbringing thought that salvation is one thing, and that sanctification is a good add-on benefit (this of course stemming from the false hell theology). But the Bible tells us that salvation comes through sanctification of the Spirit, because what we are saved from is SIN, slavery to the body of death.
Quote from: Redlettervoice on August 30, 2009, 06:04:25 AM
.
Yes, Dallas, who hath first given to God and HE recompensed
for of Him and thru Him are all things and all things are for
your sakes.
It is the goodness of God that leads man to repent.
So many good words in this thread, I won't address them all
but this is a good thread I would recommend this reading.
He Redlettervoice,
I have some words on this which more fully explains what I am talking about if you are interested: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.htm
Quote from: Gilbert on August 30, 2009, 07:30:48 PM
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 30, 2009, 06:15:02 PM
Quote
Most people are unforgiving to others because there is something inside they cannot forgive of themselves.
Maybe God will 'SUDDENLY come into his temple'! Wow!
And what temple would that be?
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
Don't be holdin' yer breath; 'cuz Jesus certainly has no plans to suddenly come.
After all, it is a growing process ... a development process ... a maturing process. So, there is nothing sudden about it. Jesus appears in you (His temple); as His words and thoughts 'become flesh' in you.
Gilbert,
I think we are talking past each other. Or having a COMMUNICATION breakdown, as it is sometimes called.
I have no desire to argue with anyone about anything. I was just thinking out loud about the Lord Coming Suddenly into his temple as it is written in the book of Malachi.
Is God's Temple finished being built? Or is God still working on/building up his temple? What shall happen when it is finished? Or perhaps you believe it is already finished. Yet if so, then why should there still be violence, tears and death among us? Surely God has not yet rested from His work.
Malachi 3
New American Standard Bible ©
The Purifier
1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. 4 "Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.
5 "Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me," says the LORD of hosts. 6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
7 "From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My statutes and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you," says the LORD of hosts. "But you say, 'How shall we return?'
You Have Robbed God
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. 9 "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! 10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. 11 "Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes," says the LORD of hosts. 12 "All the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land," says the LORD of hosts.
13 "Your words have been arrogant against Me," says the LORD. "Yet you say, 'What have we spoken against You?' 14 "You have said, 'It is vain to serve God; and what profit is it that we have kept His charge, and that we have walked in mourning before the LORD of hosts? 15 'So now we call the arrogant blessed; not only are the doers of wickedness built up but they also test God and escape.'"
The Book of Remembrance
16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. 17 "They will be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him." 18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 30, 2009, 09:49:15 PM
Quote from: Gilbert on August 30, 2009, 07:30:48 PM
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 30, 2009, 06:15:02 PM
Quote
Most people are unforgiving to others because there is something inside they cannot forgive of themselves.
Maybe God will 'SUDDENLY come into his temple'! Wow!
And what temple would that be?
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
Don't be holdin' yer breath; 'cuz Jesus certainly has no plans to suddenly come.
After all, it is a growing process ... a development process ... a maturing process. So, there is nothing sudden about it. Jesus appears in you (His temple); as His words and thoughts 'become flesh' in you.
Gilbert,
I think we are talking past each other. Or having a COMMUNICATION breakdown, as it is sometimes called.
I have no desire to argue with anyone about anything.
Anne
Hi! Raggedy Anne
Wow!
How'd I manage to give you that impression?
I am really sorry!
That was not my intention in the least.
I am very sorry.
I was jus' attempting to be ... ummm, a bit rhetorical.
I see it all failed miserably.
Nope! I wazn't lookin' fer an argument.
I waz just sincerely making a comment and meaning no harm.
Sorry. :sigh:
Gilbert,
No problem. I think I got the impression when you wrote.... Don't be holding your breath - and then proceeded to tell me Jesus' plans.
But I took it the wrong way. Let's just start over. I'm sorry too for being a tad bit touchy. I had got fired up about the sudden argument about Luther vs. Calvin I reckon.
I have a bad impression of both Luther or Calvin from historical accounts, but of course I never actually met either of them and their old nature is long ago passed away.
Anne
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 30, 2009, 10:13:21 PM
Gilbert,
No problem. I think I got the impression when you wrote.... Don't be holding your breath - and then proceeded to tell me Jesus' plans.
But I took it the wrong way. Let's just start over. I'm sorry too for being a tad bit touchy. I had got fired up about the sudden argument about Luther vs. Calvin I reckon.
I have a bad impression of both Luther or Calvin from historical accounts, but of course I never actually met either of them and their old nature is long ago passed away.
Anne
Hi! Raggedy Anne
Thanks for your kind reply.
Yeah, I see what yuh mean; 'bout me writing "Don't be holding your breath" ... I meant it to be funny ... but tryin' tuh be funny in here is like drawing in Braille ...no one can see your facial expressions or a tone of voice and so things can so easily be misread.
I gotta' try an' remember to be more careful, I guess.
Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2009, 09:13:00 AM
Quote from: Tim B on August 29, 2009, 09:06:32 AM
How do you reconcile
2 Corinthians 5:19 (New International Version)
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
with the idea that Jesus said to forgive that your Father may forgive you (otherwise you will not be forgiven)? How can He not hold their sins against mankind and yet not forgive those who do not forgive or those that blasphemy the Holy Spirit (even though it's just for the age)? How is that God being at peace with mankind?
This has been bothering me and any insight would be appreciated. Thanks guys!
Well the phrase "hold against" is a good place to start. Why do we think of God's judgments on people to be a manifestation of "holding against" rather than the biggest favor he could do for us?
Hebrews 12:5-8
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
" My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
I see the chastening of the Lord to be one of the most loving things he can do and not as an expression of him "holding sin AGAINST us." God held our sins against us by the law BECAUSE the law did not bring cleansing unto righteousness. That is so important to understand. The law actually held us in bondage TO sin and then continued to attack our conscience. It was a dire situation. The law counted our sins against us, which God is no longer doing. Rather now, His judgments are FOR us not against us. The cross is the judgment of the world which reveals that the judgment of the world is to put to death the flesh within us as we see Christ's flesh was put to death. That is why Peter said "For the time is come for judgment to begin with the house of God."
What I wish people would understand is that God's mercy is expressed THROUGH chastening because it delivers us from sin. As it says in another part of Hebrews, God's chastening leads to the peaceable fruit of righteousness. How merciful is that? VERY! God does not express mercy by allowing us to sit and stew in our sin all the while considering us "positionally" righteous. He would be leaving us as slaves and that is NOT merciful at all.
Think about this: when it came time for God to deliver the Jews from Egypt, did actually deliver them, or did he say "you are all positionally delivered" then leave it at that?
Alrighty, this is where I'm getting caught up.
1 Cor. 13 says:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs. Jesus said that our Father will not forgive us unless we ALSO forgive those who trespass against us.* He also said that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the age and the age at hand. Is this not COUNTING wrongs? Is this something different? Is not forgiving something other than counting wrongs?
* When Jesus speaks about the Father not forgiving us if we do not forgive, he gives this parable.
Matthew 18:21:
The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.f
23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talentsg was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27
The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.h He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured,
until he should pay back all he owed.35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
So, the Master forgives FIRST. But then, an unmerciful servant doesn't forgive even though he's already been forgiven. So THEN the Master makes the unmerciful servant be "tortured" UNTIL he pays back all that he owed. The reason I mention this is I've noticed: man CAN pay for his debt, that is, be punished for ALL that he owes. But it should be recognized, I think, that this does not make man free from his sinful nature. We still need Jesus for that. So, is being forgiven just an extra benefit of the cross (as long as we forgive), and then Christ mainly died to set us free from our sinful nature?
I just can't figure out how God can make peace with man, and yet, not forgive some of them (at least, at the moment). How is that not counting wrongs? It sounds like a straight contradiction to me.
Redlettervoice,
I also wanted to pick up a bit about the cross again and how it is the judgment of the world. I think everyone agrees and has been saying that the cross is a gift of grace given to all mankind. However, for a while now, I have not been viewing the cross as I once did.
1 Corinthians 2:11
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are FOOLISHNESS unto him: neither CAN he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
That is the guiding principle of how I now view the gift of grace given through the cross. I USED to think about the cross as being two sticks of wood on which a physical man named Jesus died for my sins 2000 years ago. Now, that did happen, for sure. Literally that is what happened and did result in a reconciliation of the world (the nailing of the law to the cross spiritually).
However, to understand what God has given to me in the cross, I DO NOT apply physical discernment. This is because "to understand the things freely given to us of God" we should apply SPIRITUAL discernment. And here is how Paul understood the cross and how it brings active salvation from sin - and how he understood it according to Spiritual discernment rather than physical discernment.
Rom 6:1-6
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
That is some serious Spiritual discernment of that physical cross isn't it? Think about "the old man" that "body of sin" hanging on the cross and dying daily in us. That is what the resurrected life of Christ provides upon baptism. As I have often said, this is not about positional salvation. Show me a person who says that a prostitute/thief/murderer is saved from prostitution/thieving/murderousness while she is still abiding in such death, and I will show you someone who cannot see their nose in the fog. Nobody is saved from something they are still slaves to.
This "spiritual discernment" is a guiding principle in how I view the cross and that is why I can see that the "death that Christ would die" is the judgment of the world, and why it is that "the time is come for judgment to begin with the house of God."
Quote from: Tim B on August 31, 2009, 01:38:23 AM
I just can't figure out how God can make peace with man, and yet, not forgive some of them (at least, at the moment). How is that not counting wrongs? It sounds like a straight contradiction to me.
No it's not a contradiction, because it is by the LAW that wrongs are counted. God does not judge man by the Law of Moses. Heck, nobody is even under the Law of Moses anymore, otherwise they would be sacrificing sheep at the temple (which is non-existent now).
Have you seen this thread, starting at reply #21: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6251.0
KEEPING a record of wrongs has no place in the new covenant, but salvation from sin is what that new covenant is all about.
QuoteI just can't figure out how God can make peace with man, and yet, not forgive some of them (at least, at the moment). How is that not counting wrongs? It sounds like a straight contradiction to me.
It depends on what you mean by "make peace with man." God has not made peace with man's sin, but with the man trapped in sin. God reveals his wrath against the unrighteousness of man, and that is for man's benefit.
However, because the law did not deliver any man from sin, it was wrath upon the man without chance of redemption. So when it says
James 4:6-7
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith,
God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God.
that God resists the proud it isn't because God is "counting men's sins against them." It only seems that way to those who "despiseth the chastening of the Lord." Those who despise his chastening would think that God is counting their sins against them. If Christ says they "do not have forgiveness in the age to come" that is a resisting of the proud.
Mt 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be
abased (Gk. tapeinoo); and he that shall
humble (Gk. tapeinoo) himself shall be exalted.
You see? Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled. God gives grace to the humble. And when they are humbled he shall exalt them. This is why God's resistance of people is good. It humbles them so they will be prepared to receive the grace that delivers them from sin through teaching and sanctification of the Spirit. This is why those who blaspheme the Spirit have not forgivness in in the age, NOT because he is counting their sins against them by the Law, but to humble them unto grace.
Everything God does, he does in love. It only seems unloving to those who do not yet value the judgment.
Quote from: aspiring son on August 29, 2009, 11:39:08 PM
I believe that God is working in everybody, even if they don't know it yet. And they don't know it yet because for the time they are blind to the divine nature , not knowing all they go through is leading them to their savior and spiritual awakening and redemption. And Christ and his body are being prepared to show them this deliverence.
The curse of sin has made some murderers, theives, alchohlics, etc. What they ( and we in the past) have sown is not good, so we have not reaped good things. But by the goodness of God, we are brought to repentance. So with goodenss sown to us, we plant the good seed. All creation needs is to be sown the ultimate good seed within everything, which will happen. It's true we don't always learn from it. Some do, some don't.
Unbelivers cannot work out salvation through reaping and sowing because even sowing good is a far cry from sowing perfection. Jesus sowed perfection to us all, He will soon be reaping. :bigGrin:
Blessings
These are very awesome and helpful contemplations full of grace and truth. Thanks for taking the time to share your bread.
Anne
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 31, 2009, 11:00:26 AM
Quote from: aspiring son on August 29, 2009, 11:39:08 PM
I believe that God is working in everybody, even if they don't know it yet. And they don't know it yet because for the time they are blind to the divine nature , not knowing all they go through is leading them to their savior and spiritual awakening and redemption. And Christ and his body are being prepared to show them this deliverence.
The curse of sin has made some murderers, theives, alchohlics, etc. What they ( and we in the past) have sown is not good, so we have not reaped good things. But by the goodness of God, we are brought to repentance. So with goodenss sown to us, we plant the good seed. All creation needs is to be sown the ultimate good seed within everything, which will happen. It's true we don't always learn from it. Some do, some don't.
Unbelivers cannot work out salvation through reaping and sowing because even sowing good is a far cry from sowing perfection. Jesus sowed perfection to us all, He will soon be reaping. :bigGrin:
Blessings
These are very awesome and helpful contemplations full of grace and truth. Thanks for taking the time to share your bread.
Anne
Thanks for sharing yours, Anne. We are all partaking of the same bread of life. :bigGrin:
Blessings
Quote from: Seth on August 31, 2009, 02:12:42 AM
Quote from: Tim B on August 31, 2009, 01:38:23 AM
I just can't figure out how God can make peace with man, and yet, not forgive some of them (at least, at the moment). How is that not counting wrongs? It sounds like a straight contradiction to me.
No it's not a contradiction, because it is by the LAW that wrongs are counted. God does not judge man by the Law of Moses. Heck, nobody is even under the Law of Moses anymore, otherwise they would be sacrificing sheep at the temple (which is non-existent now).
Have you seen this thread, starting at reply #21: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6251.0
KEEPING a record of wrongs has no place in the new covenant, but salvation from sin is what that new covenant is all about.
QuoteI just can't figure out how God can make peace with man, and yet, not forgive some of them (at least, at the moment). How is that not counting wrongs? It sounds like a straight contradiction to me.
It depends on what you mean by "make peace with man." God has not made peace with man's sin, but with the man trapped in sin. God reveals his wrath against the unrighteousness of man, and that is for man's benefit.
However, because the law did not deliver any man from sin, it was wrath upon the man without chance of redemption. So when it says
James 4:6-7
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God.
that God resists the proud it isn't because God is "counting men's sins against them." It only seems that way to those who "despiseth the chastening of the Lord." Those who despise his chastening would think that God is counting their sins against them. If Christ says they "do not have forgiveness in the age to come" that is a resisting of the proud.
Mt 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased (Gk. tapeinoo); and he that shall humble (Gk. tapeinoo) himself shall be exalted.
You see? Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled. God gives grace to the humble. And when they are humbled he shall exalt them. This is why God's resistance of people is good. It humbles them so they will be prepared to receive the grace that delivers them from sin through teaching and sanctification of the Spirit. This is why those who blaspheme the Spirit have not forgivness in in the age, NOT because he is counting their sins against them by the Law, but to humble them unto grace.
Everything God does, he does in love. It only seems unloving to those who do not yet value the judgment.
So you would say that when God does not forgive somebody, he's simply resisting them so as to make them humble (but he's not revengefully angry with them)? So "non-forgiveness" then, in this sense, is more along the lines of a punishment to make them humble, so that he may exalt them?
Would you say that any sort of "judgement" upon a non-believer is also, then, for the same purpose as "non-forgiveness"? As a sort of punishment to bring them to humbleness?
I like this verse you gave here too btw:
Mt 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be
abased (Gk. tapeinoo); and he that shall
humble (Gk. tapeinoo) himself shall be exalted.
I never looked at it the way you showed it to me.
Thanks for all your help. I hope I'm not becoming a drag.
A drag? Heck no. You ask really good questions. You are supposed to do that. :HeartThrob:
I think you got the gist of what I am saying. God is love, and even His judgments are in love. And Jesus spoke in veiled language for the express purpose of them not understanding him, because if they understood, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of Glory. So what SEEMS unloving or unforgiving seems only so to those who have no use for God's judgments. :HeartThrob:
aspiring son-
QuoteDallas,
Good Morning. This is where we are agreeing, and I don't think we are far off.
Under the old covenant, eye for eye, tooth for tooth etc. is literally reapig what you sow. I also feel what you are saying about cause and affect is similar to my take on reaping and sowing. But Christ changed the method of reaping what was sown.
"But awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God; I speak this to your shame.
But some will say, How are the dead raised up? with what body do they come?
Fool! That which you sow is notquckened, except it die." 1 Cor 15 34-36
" So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, there is a spiritual body." 1 Cor 15 42-44
So with that Christ did not reap death and sin for dying under the curse. And because of that, neither shall we.
2. " Or are you ( so blind as to) trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long suffering and patience? Are you mindful or actually ignorant ( of the fact ) God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent( chage your mind and inner man to accept God's will)? " ROM 2-4 Amplified
This is what I meant by the goodness sown to us. Christ's resurrection and the spirit of Christ leading us to repent.
3. I absolutely agree that no one can obey the old covenant. I beleive that whole heartedly. However, I do believe the holy spirit can keep us from sinning.
" Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you fautless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God and Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominoin and power, both NOW and FOREVER." Jude 24-25
You are right that it is Christ's blood that saves us. But in the blood we have access into the holy of holies, the inner most sanctified realm of Christ. And we are to not despise the chastening of the Lord for,
" Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but greivous; nevertheless afterward it yields fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" Heb 12-5This to me is the spirit working within us, burning away sin.
Matthew Ch 13 Jesus talks of the parable of the seeds sown. Cares of the world, no roots, etc. are all mental things. Everything we take in and let in our hearts can be viewed as some kind of seed, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If the seeds are the cares of this world. Then that's what are physical lives will emulate. If the holy spirit is working in us and delivering us from our iniquities, than that's what will be shown to the world as witness.
Blessings
Brandon
Quote3. I absolutely agree that no one can obey the old covenant. I beleive that whole heartedly. However, I do believe the holy spirit can keep us from sinning.
I agree completley, and even take it further. Because of what I have to come to understand what sin actually is, I realize that it's impossible to for me to sin now. I don't believe that the Holy Spirit "keeps me from sinning" in the I am being prevented sense, but there is nolonger an ability to sin.
Most people think sin is an action or lack of action- somekind of behaviour.... it's not though. Sin is man not believing what God has said about him, and thus trying to become like God but through shame hide from God.
Sin is man trying to become good and right by his own standing and failing. Because of this all types of deplorable behaviour is manifest. The behaviour is the sign sin is in the person, not the behaviour is the sin.
Because of what Jesus has done I am again restored to the likeness and righteousness of God. I now have stopped trying to become like Him, thus I can never fail, but instead rest in what He did. Because He is I am.
Quote" Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but greivous; nevertheless afterward it yields fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" Heb 12-5 This to me is the spirit working within us, burning away sin.
God nolonger needs to "burn away sin." "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" I say He was successful. also the new covenant that was the Blood of Jesus says, "I will remeber their sin no longer." (Jeremiah 32, and Romans 8)
You don't have a sin problem, you don't have sin to be delt with or be cleansed of. Your sin and all the worlds sins have been forgiven and removed. The great purging has already taken place, the judgement has taken place upon Jesus. The Burning away of sin took place in His flesh.
Though once our sin was as scarlet HE HAS made them white as snow. You don't need purging, you need to understand that because of Jesus your sin has been delt with, you are the righteousness of God, you have been made as good and right as your Father... because of Jesus. The happy family reunion. 1 John "As He (Jesus) is, so are we in this world already."
1 John 3
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as God is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 IN THIS the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath aionios life abiding in him.
16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but IN DEED and in truth.
19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Titus 2
1But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3The aged women likewise, that they be in BEHAVIOUR as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
6Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7In all things shewing thyself A PATTERN OF GOOD WORKS: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
9Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
10Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12TEACHING US (GK paiduo - chastening) that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
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Acts 5
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
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1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
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James 4
1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
4You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."
7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
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James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Acts 19
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5In hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
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Acts 5
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
1 John 3
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
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Romans 8
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Hey Seth, It's actually quite alot easier to just post the bible address and then we can look it up instead of dragging out pointless rants.
Quote from: Dallas on September 13, 2009, 08:31:45 AM
Hey Seth, It's actually quite alot easier to just post the bible address and then we can look it up instead of dragging out pointless rants.
:thumbdown: :thumbdown:
there may have been numerous scriptures, but not pointless.
It is pointless when just scripture is being quoted without the person explaining what they are trying to use them as.
Obviously alot of people interpret things differently, what the point of lambasting us with a huge amount of scripture without adding your idea along with it?
Quote from: Dallas on September 14, 2009, 02:38:02 AM
It is pointless when just scripture is being quoted without the person explaining what they are trying to use them as.
Obviously alot of people interpret things differently, what the point of lambasting us with a huge amount of scripture without adding your idea along with it?
I suppose it was pointless when Jesus did this too??
Jesus quotes scripture and gave His idea with it, are you serious to say that Jesus simply walked around quoting the old testament? Like some kind of scripture spitting machiene?
:director: