Hi Brian;
As to your asking 'what's the deal" in regard to the Catholic
Preist seeming to double talk,when he stated all saved by
GRACE...then being sure to confess sins or [maintain]
I went to wikipedia for def of purgatory....it's orig
,meaning is * process of purification or a temporary discipline
to make ready for heaven..of souls that have died in
a state of GRACE.
So you can see that though he seemed to be speaking out of
both sides of his mouth, there is a certain reasoning there.
The only thing I can 'get' out of this, is that beleivers
want to maintain union with Christ,and keep their conscience
clean and die in union with Christ.Also the servant who didn't
know his Masters will receiving fewer strokes that he who did.
IMO the sanctification process is the same for us down here
as it is in heaven[actually it may be a little easier and quicker
in heaven due to no interference with false-truths ,fleshly
weakness etc]
Basically, are we going home an obediant son or a prodigal?
And haven't all of us been prodigal at times?
I have a few other thoughts on the matter that may,or may
not clarify . When we pray for those who persecute us we
heap coals of fire upon their head.Gehenna/Purgatory is
a place of fire/burning.Dead flesh carcasses are burned
there in Gehenna[dump] Dross is also purged by fire.
Do expect to be disciplined even scourged here,now..
or in heaven later. He is educating HIS CHILDREN.
Sheila
QuoteWhen we pray for those who persecute us we
heap coals of fire upon their head.
What does this mean?
Hi Molly. I've heard 2 explanations for this...one being, that somehow (through their conscience and/or God's judgment upon them?) they actually suffer/are judged for what they've done to us....the other is, that people used to carry containers on their heads that contained coal/embers for heat. When they came to get coals for heat, you would be blessing them by providing an excess to them, "heaping it on them"/giving them extra. Scripturally, I guess I'd tend to think some version related to #2 might be more accurate..."praying for those that persecute us", "blessing those who curse us"...not good at it you understand, I'm just sayin' :)
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2009, 03:47:59 AM
QuoteWhen we pray for those who persecute us we
heap coals of fire upon their head.
What does this mean?
I dunno. But isn't it bad enough that I've been running a fever?
I have heard that back in the time, a man would sometimes ask his neighbor for some burning coals, the same way a neighbor would ask a neighbor for a cup of sugar. The neighbor requesting the coals would have a basket on his head, and the other neighbor would heap burning coals into the basket upon his head. Thus an act of neighborly kindness and generosity.
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2009, 03:47:59 AM
QuoteWhen we pray for those who persecute us we
heap coals of fire upon their head.
What does this mean?
Molly, it isn't praying for someone that heaps coals of fire on their head but when you go out of your way to physically help those who are your enemy, you heep coals on fire on their head:
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
It is just another way of saying you make them feel really guilty about hating you. The good you do for them is like embers of fire or coals of fire which warm what they are near. Their minds will be warmed toward you maybe?
A poet once wrote:
"So artists melt the sullen ore of lead,
By heaping coals of fire upon its head.
In the kind warmth the metal learns to glow,
And pure from dross the silver runs below."
:cloud9: Also; what happened at Sinai, is the same as Pentecost; both had fire present. Blessings....
So I take it this means I can't actually pray for coals to be heaped on their heads? Or, there won't be actual coals heaped on their heads? Because my enemies have no remorse. Coals might help....
Well, I just saw this poem.
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.
--W.H. Auden
Matthew 5;44 But,I tell you,love your enemies
and pray for those who persecute you
that you may be sons of your Father in HEAVEN
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,
and sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous.
If you love those who love you,what reward will you get?
Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
And if you greet only your brothers,what are you doing more
than the others? Do not even pagans do that?
Be perfect,therefore,as your Heavenly Father is perfect
I beleive it is the 2nd application also. Feed,clothe, give drink
and heap coals of fire upon their head.Kindness unto them
that hate you for no reason..can convict their conscience and
make them repent of their evil intent against you.
Matthew 6;14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you
Your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
BUT IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE MEN THEIR SINS
YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS.
I would be very very hesitant to take any matter
to the court[Law]
Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the alter
and there remember that your brother has something
against you.Leave your gift there in front of the alter.
First go and become reconciled to your brother and then
come an offer your gift.
Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you
to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way
Or He may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may
hand you over to the officer, and he may throw you into prison.
I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid
the last penny.
Rev 2 ;8-10
Brian, my post in no way meant that your fever is the
judgement of God on you[coals of fire]
Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to
judge a dispute between beleivers? But instead.
.
one brother goes to law against another
1 Cor 6;7 the very fact that you have lawsuits among you
means you have been completely defeated already.
Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?
Instead you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this
to your brothers.
Sheila
p.s.
Jesus prayed on the cross.Father forgive them they know
NOT WHAT THEY DO"
We should have this prayer in mind when there is no
apparent remorse.
Sheila
Quote from: Tony N on February 20, 2009, 04:09:12 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2009, 03:47:59 AM
QuoteWhen we pray for those who persecute us we
heap coals of fire upon their head.
What does this mean?
Molly, it isn't praying for someone that heaps coals of fire on their head but when you go out of your way to physically help those who are your enemy, you heep coals on fire on their head:
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
It is just another way of saying you make them feel really guilty about hating you. The good you do for them is like embers of fire or coals of fire which warm what they are near. Their minds will be warmed toward you maybe?
A poet once wrote:
"So artists melt the sullen ore of lead,
By heaping coals of fire upon its head.
In the kind warmth the metal learns to glow,
And pure from dross the silver runs below."
Hey Tony....
I really enjoy your posts....please pardon the pun....but you are postivley on fire at the moment....
Grace and Peace to you...always!
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2009, 03:47:59 AM
QuoteWhen we pray for those who persecute us we
heap coals of fire upon their head.
What does this mean?
For mine- A purification of the Mind \flesh\..,Ijust kinda see it as speaking after thine enemies of the Cross
Psa 37:20 But the
wicked shall perish, and the
enemies of the LORD [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. EACH MAN IS A CITY
Eze 24:9 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the bloody city! I will even make the pile for fire great.
Eze 24:10 Heap on wood, kindle the fire, consume the flesh, and spice it well, and let the bones be burned.
Eze 24:11 Then set it empty upon the coals thereof, that the brass of it may be hot, and may burn, and [that] the filthiness of it may be molten in it, [that] the scum of it may be consumed
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
FEED those WHO are Hungry , give DRINK to Those who Thirst ( for righteousness) -if thy do it to one of these you do it UNTO ME!
feed love( Christ) Unto thy enemies.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine
enemy hunger, feed him;
if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good
The Flesh of all men are\were enemies ( enmity)to the Cross , which makes ALL men the same...
Rom 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were
reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Phl 3:15 Let us therefore,
as many as be perfect, be
thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded,
God shall reveal even this unto you. Phl 3:16 Nevertheless,
whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Phl 3:17 Brethren, be followers
together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phl 3:19
Whose end [is] destruction, whose God [is their] belly,( mind) and [whose]
glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.) Phl 3:20 For our
conversation is in heaven; from
whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Phl 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able
even to subdue all things unto himself. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2009, 04:39:20 AM
So I take it this means I can't actually pray for coals to be heaped on their heads? Or, there won't be actual coals heaped on their heads? Because my enemies have no remorse. Coals might help....
Well, I just saw this poem.
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.
--W.H. Auden
Hi Molly, you can pray for coals of fire to be heaped on the heads of those hating you but what really gets them is when you do nice things for them.
Remember the movie 1000 B.C.? One of the people fell into a pit and water was rushing in filling it. In that pit was a saber toothed tiger who was his mortal enemy. The tiger was trapped by tree limbs on top of him and he was slowly drowning. Rather than killing the tiger the guy helped him get out. The tiger became his friend and helped him later in the movie. He heaped coals of fire on the head of that tiger. If he just prayed for coals of fire to be upon that tiger it wouldn't have done anything. There are probably better ways of describing it but, he he, no coffee yet this morning so ya get what ya get LOL
Quote from: Tony N on February 20, 2009, 04:09:12 AM
Molly, it isn't praying for someone that heaps coals of fire on their head but when you go out of your way to physically help those who are your enemy, you heep coals on fire on their head:
We pray for what God must do, we do what we know we should.
Amen! Taffy
that adversary is with us all.Everyone has to fight this battle.
we want to walk as Christ not as the adversary.
All of our feet slips,sometimes
Sheila
Taf kinda stole my thunder on this one . . .but if we're to be living free from guilt and sin . .and shame, the idea that dumping coals on the head of another would make them feel guilty for being my enemy doesn't fit with the true nature of God.
Secondly, we're to interpret Scripture with Scripture . . .in other words . .let Scripture interpret itself. Do a word study on coals . . . they're not to destroy, invoke guilt or shame, but they are to purify. And as Taf eluded to . . .when you see the picture of coals on one's head . . .it's revealing that when you love those who hate you, and not return hate for hate, you are actually cleansing their mind by your acts of love . . .unconditional love . . .on them.
I don't want you to feel shame or guilt for being dirty . . . I want you to be cleansed. My works are simply a manifestation of my heart. As a man thinks . .so is he.
Quote from: Nathan on February 20, 2009, 04:45:30 PM
Taf kinda stole my thunder on this one . . .but if we're to be living free from guilt and sin . .and shame, the idea that dumping coals on the head of another would make them feel guilty for being my enemy doesn't fit with the true nature of God.
This is something that I try to see and have known in my own life. It is commonly thought that we should be kind to someone whether we feel like it or not and that will help show someone Christ.
However, and this is not to say there is no merit in passively treating someone good that has wronged us just because. What I am saying is that if we believe in spiritual things, then we have to make note of something.
Nathan I think the guilt you refer to is a damaging guilt to where we "want" someone to fell guilty and feel bad so they will change. But is that the real spirit of God at work? I won't use typical words that spur debate apart from what I am trying to convey but i am talking about our carnal nature hoping someone feels bad then changes because of how nice we were to them. That then builds our pride in the false sense of our righteousness where it would be a glee in some power of our own.
Now, when we do good to someone who has wronged us because it is righteous to do so without any other motivation then the coals heaped up on them will be the warming spirit of God who will INSPIRE and enact change.
Well,1 Peter 3;8-16 Suffering for doing good is what I was
referring too. The attitude would be wrong if the motive wasn't
love.Or if one was maliciously trying to shame
v 16 keeping a clear conscience,so that those who speak
maliciously against YOUR GOOD BEHAVIOUR IN CHRIST
MAY BE ASHAMED OF THEIR SLANDER
v21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves
you also- not the removal of dirt from the body,
but the pledge of a good conscience towards God.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 20, 2009, 04:58:36 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 20, 2009, 04:45:30 PM
Taf kinda stole my thunder on this one . . .but if we're to be living free from guilt and sin . .and shame, the idea that dumping coals on the head of another would make them feel guilty for being my enemy doesn't fit with the true nature of God.
This is something that I try to see and have known in my own life. It is commonly thought that we should be kind to someone whether we feel like it or not and that will help show someone Christ.
However, and this is not to say there is no merit in passively treating someone good that has wronged us just because. What I am saying is that if we believe in spiritual things, then we have to make note of something.
Nathan I think the guilt you refer to is a damaging guilt to where we "want" someone to fell guilty and feel bad so they will change. But is that the real spirit of God at work? I won't use typical words that spur debate apart from what I am trying to convey but i am talking about our carnal nature hoping someone feels bad then changes because of how nice we were to them. That then builds our pride in the false sense of our righteousness where it would be a glee in some power of our own.
Now, when we do good to someone who has wronged us because it is righteous to do so without any other motivation then the coals heaped up on them will be the warming spirit of God who will INSPIRE and enact change.
Yup, that's my point exactly Paul . .well said.
:cloud9: yep, the HS convicts them then. :thumbsup: Blessings....