Father’s will

[MusicLover123]

I think of a couple things:

Maybe we "know" all things, but we cannot see what we are given? But that wouldn't make sense, because some verses say He will give more things, like wisdom or His Spirit, or gifts.

Maybe it is like a seed? We are given "all things"(all the things necessary are in the seed) but it still has to grow.

2 Corinthians 3
18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 13
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Just thinking, if we "knew everything" what would we need God for? We could just boast in our own ability, including the amount of knowledge and wisdom.

[jabcat]

Yeah not sure, but I like what you're doing there.  IOW, IMO, there's "more to the story"/all the scriptures have to be taken into account and reconciled (rightly divided).  For instance, if all believers have all knowledge, it would be impossible for one to believe in ET and the other to believe in UR.  So there's either human insufficiency in there somewhere, and/or God's will, timing, purpose involved.  :2c:

[jabcat]

Knowing, not knowing, being given/not given;

"And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one [servant] who did not know, and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more" (Luke 12:47–48).

[jabcat]

I think of a couple things:

Maybe we "know" all things, but we cannot see what we are given? But that wouldn't make sense, because some verses say He will give more things, like wisdom or His Spirit, or gifts.

Maybe it is like a seed? We are given "all things"(all the things necessary are in the seed) but it still has to grow.


Just thinking, if we "knew everything" what would we need God for? We could just boast in our own ability, including the amount of knowledge and wisdom.

This is interesting, from believethesign;  "The first mistake is to pit the Spirit against the Scriptures. Jesus' promise has nothing to do with the Spirit's telling me whom I should marry or what job I should take. That's not what he has in mind when he says the Spirit "will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13). Jesus is talking to the apostles (v. 12). They are the ones who will be led into "all truth."   [:doh: - my forgotten line - "who is being primarily addressed and about what"?]

The "all truth" they would receive was not the truth about every bit of knowledge in the universe, from supernovas to DNA. The "truth" refers to the whole truth about everything bound up in Jesus Christ, the way, the truth, and the life. The Spirit will illuminate the things that are to come (John 16:13), not in a predictive sense, but in so far as he will unpack the significance of the events yet to come, namely Jesus' death, resurrection, and exaltation. The Spirit, speaking for the Father and the Son, will help the apostles remember what Jesus said and understand the true meaning of who Jesus is and what he accomplished (John 14:26).

[MusicLover123]

Unless believers do know all truth literally, and people who believe in UR aren't truly saved wink wink

[jabcat]

 :punish:

:spank:

:laugh:

[jabcat]

Here's an interesting thought from Elliot;  an attempt to rightly divide/reconcile a whole of scripture -

He will guide you into all truth.--Better, . . . into all the truth. The words do not mean that the Holy Spirit will fully guide them into truth, but that He will be their guide into the fullness of truth. [They would grow, mature - similar to "being perfect", translated more accurately as 'mature'.]

The word rendered "guide," occurs again in Matthew 15:14; Luke 6:39; Revelation 7:17; and metaphorically, as here, in Acts 8:31. A comparison of these passages will show that its meaning is "to point out the way," "to lead one on his way." The fullness of truth is for the disciples an unknown territory. They are spiritually as blind men, feeling after the truth, but not able to see it. The Spirit of Truth will take them by the hand, and, step by step, as they have strength to follow, will guide them into the territory, and unfold to them the treasures it contains. The promise has a special meaning for the disciples to whom it was spoken; but it holds good for every disciple who seeks to know the truth.

[jabcat]

Oh well, I'm personally pretty settled on that.  As for the OP, I think marie was getting at, God has a will - that all be saved - and whatever He wills will be accomplished.

Every knee will bow, every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.

"How can I be saved?".  ^^  "Believe on the Lord, confess with your mouth..."

all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea


http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/

[marie glen]

Great discussion guys! (Aka, brothers, but I'm a bit of a hillbilly and aways think 'guys'.. which to me is male and female..)  :dontknow:

Ok, here's a crazy idea, I've had for quite a long time now. It's the verses in revelation :mblush: in chapter 7. (Was it here there was a thread on the sealing of the foreheads of 144,000 of Israel.. :doh: ? ...no I don't think so..)

I have thought for a long time that this scene of 2 crowds is metaphor. And not actual appearance before the throne of God, as some believers tend to think(?)

Just previous, something new had been released (seal 6 in chapter 6) then it was paused (or so it seems to me) and during that pause, a great crowd too many to number from every nation, etc. had been (imho) sealed - upon/within their foreheads. And before the pause is interrupted, 144,000 (counted/numbered) are also sealed.

Notice Mt. 23:39 - Jesus said, Jerusalem! You will not see me again, until, you say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'^{cross reference, rev.12, an insert, v17}

To make this long winded question a little shorter, a "sealing on the forehead"..?  Which has to do with virginal.. / pure. Pure foreheads?

Our hearts have been sealed - we are not our own. :dsunny:  :cloud9:

If all are being made into the likeness of Jesus - He being the prototype! The Master plan! - isn't it logical our mind (and very psyche) should also be sealed unto God..? ...yep, I think a spiritual virgin who follows the Lord wherever He goes, is one who has been given clarity - not from supernovas to DNA (great line jabcat!) but of His word/truth of what God is doing. So I think all of us believers are undergoing a "process" (  :thumbsup: ) of having our minds, thoughts, ways of thinking, etc. sealed. ...as opposed to the world's forehead of 'babble'/ mystery, babble.. all confusion and untruth "responsible for all slain upon Earth".
:girlheart:

[sheila]

 :2c:grow into the fullness of Christ..grow like the'seed'...in wisdom and understanding and truth from above.

[sheila]

 :2c:we were all sealed at our creation..when God made man in His image and likeness..it was a seal.Trees and grass have been

hurt by volcanoes/droughts/hail/winds and such since the beginning.Forest felled etc.

seven seals on the word only Jesus Christ can open up to us.Seven letters with emblems of those

who have His approval/andrecieve a'reward[something x-tra]white stone,crown white garment seat etc.

[sheila]

cont'd  forinstance Rev 2..Ephesus..thesepeople have persevered in doing right[His comands]Have seen evil men not doing right in the

churches..recognized false apostle's,persevered in  the faith.successfully heeding His counsel..and gaining His'ok"gains you more

and overcoming these stumbling situations in your walk.Youwilleat from the TOL on this side[never die]..instead of after you rise

[Wisdomfrom Above]you alsoknow allmen..will be granted this in their order as they rise..ifthey do not attain it on this side.

  The Smyrna congregation that heeds that counsel.and deeds have His'ok".are rewarded with the

assurance of their and  fellowman's portion..regarding not being hurt of the second death.They receive that Wisdom from AboveThey

know the crown of life is given them on this side..and all men will receive it on the other side.those who have not overcome..are

anxious/doubting over these things on this side.

This is how it works.  :2c:

[gluecht2]

God's "timing"
-sorry Marie about not addressing your post directly.  I rejoined the conversation late and thought I would address the issue of what believer's already possess at their disposal

We have received ALL that God gives (In the S(s)pirit through faith)
John 1:16
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Colossians 2:9–10
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
The Holy Spirit and the Son are within the Believer (through faith)
John 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:20
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 6:17
But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
1 John 4:17
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
Believers "put on" the Son through faith
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Believer's draw on what they already know they possess (through faith)
Matthew 7:7
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Matthew 21:22
"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
Mark 11:24
"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
James 1:5
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
Philemon 6
and I pray that the fellowship of your faith may become effective through the knowledge of every good thing which is in you for Christ's sake.
2 Peter 1:3–4
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
1 John 5:14–15
14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.
Believer's authority is limited to the Will of God (His Word)
James 4:2–3
2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 7:12 PM January 17, 2019.

[gluecht2]

Consider the woman with the issue of blood --she "took" her healing by following the "Laws of faith".  Christ did not even know who touched Him-not anything to do with "timing".   Also consider the father of the "epileptic boy" who said to Christ "help me if you can"--what was Christ's reply?   How about the mountain being tossed into the sea? (Matt 21:21; Mk 11:23)

[MusicLover123]

Well, there you have it folks! Since believers already know everything, since we believe in UR, we aren't true believers! See you all in the torture chamber!

[gluecht2]

not sure what your meaning;   I do not recall talking at all about what happens after earthly death accept for questioning the contention of UR/CR as problematic;   if there is some objection or difference of viewpoint I hope that whatever is put forth would stand scriptural scrutiny;   isn't that what were all here for??   it's all gotta fit doesn't it??   please forgive if last post too forcefull??

[MusicLover123]

No, I was being sarcastic. Trying to be funny lol.

But if you're saying that believers already "know" all truth, and you're saying UR is a lie, that we did not actually receive a revelation from God on this. Because under your view, God cannot reveal anything new to someone, since they presumably know everything already. I could switch it around though. UR is one of those truths, but most don't have enough faith to receive that revelation.

Of course it all has to fit. But as Jabcat and others have said, we personally think that once UR is revealed to you, everything fits better together, that everything has a purpose. Not just any purpose, but a purpose for good.

[gluecht2]

Believers know ALL truth by faith and revelation through His Word.  It is not that there is anything addt'l for God to say.  There is more for believer's to receive for fuller revelation of what has already been said.  It is a matter of man moving closer to God in intimacy.  We HAVE received all spiritual blessings;  we HAVE received His fullness;  all promises ARE yes and amen in Him-which means it is not no or someday;  it is only man's unbelief and hardness of heart that stands in the way of full revelation;   we see darkly by our limitations not God holding back;   Man can only suppress truth that is ALREADY revealed

[MusicLover123]

He has not revealed everything there is in His word though, I think. The fact that we see through the glass/mirror darkly shows that we don't know everything yet, even if God has revealed everything.

John 21
25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

1 Corinthians 15
28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

This is the last verse, speaking of time, of what will happen. Scripture is quite silent on some things, including what we are going to do at the all in all state.

So if UR is one of those truths, according to your view, is it your own stubbornness and hardness of heart the only thing that is stopping you from revelation of it?

Even if everything has been revealed, there are still veils. More then one, I might add. One comes off when we are first drawn to God. But still more things are there that stop us from seeing fully.

So I desire to know more of things I don't know about. Even when fully believing that I will receive, still have not been shown yet. So why haven't I? I'm not trying to suppress the truth, and am earnestly seeking. Seems under your POV, I should have been revealed it already. If it is God's will for someone to be revealed something later, you cannot play the "he did not have enough faith card" whenever you don't get something you want.

I don't think you can ignore the "I have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear it now" verse. Everything is in His timing, not ours. Even as a child may want something, and may believe it 100% it will happen, they have to be made ready. Do you give someone power and knowledge you know they cannot handle at the time?

Again, you say God is yes to all His promises. He promises to save the world(His will be done) so won't you believe everything He promises?

all promises ARE yes and amen in Him

[marie glen]

But the assumption is that UR/Christian Universalism is not in His Word - no I don't think He zaps us with new information. I always figure if it can't be found in His Word, not worth wasting time pondering.. nor if it takes massive twists and bends of His Word.

There's tons of assuming due to doctrinal bias passed on through word of mouth/teaching(s).

UR is talking, not about men's fancy about God's Word, even if some folks fall into that pit, it's about God's Word -

Such as - Matthew 5:48 - "...Father in heaven is perfect."

Luke 1:37 - "For with/to God, nothing is impossible".

And having come to them, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on the earth has been given to Me" - Matthew 28:18

"Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness." - Matthew 28:19, Aramaic Bible in Plain English

[Young's Literal Translation - "..disciple all the nations, baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."]

"Go to the whole world and preach the gospel to all mankind" (Greek, ktisis - to all creation) - Mark 16:15 - Is there a verse says the work ends at Jesus' return?

"..and repentance and forgiveness of sins to be proclaimed in His name to all nations, having begun from Jerusalem." Luke 24:47, Berean Study Bible

"He has stretched out his mighty arm and scattered the proud.. He has brought down mighty kings" (plural!) "from their thrones.." from Mary's Song, Luke 1:46-55

"He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, ,who is Lord of all." - Acts 10:36

(And having come to them, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on the earth has been given to Me" - Matthew 28:18)
________________

I'm sure has been mentioned "you have not chosen Me, but I chose.."

And "He hardens whom He will".. " Potter and the clay.. fashions some vessels for honorable use and others for dishonorable.."

Do all Christian's possess complete clarity? I saw a video of a church where folks were barking like dogs while in all four-an inaccurate cliche/on all four, that is. :gsmile :

[marie glen]

A few (more) verses..

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." -  Genesis 1:1 (I thought I'd start at the beginning. :gsmile: )

From Isaiah 55 -  "(10) For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and do not return there, but water the earth, and make it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, (11) So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

1 Timothy 2 - "(1)...prayers...be made for all men, ...(3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ...(5) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Ephesians 1 - "(4) just as He chose us in Him.. that we should be holy and without blame .. (5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.. (7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace (8) which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, (9) having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, (10) that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. (11) In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." -- "all - 3956. pas ► pas: all, every, the whole" - https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

Colossians 1 - "(19) For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, (20) and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." -- "all things - 3956. pas ► pas: all, every, the whole" - https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

Matthew 13:33 - "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven. Which a woman took and hid in 3 measures of meal, until the whole was leavened."

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 - 22 For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ all (pas) shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: (1)Christ the firstfruits, afterward (2)those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end(3), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power." (Except the Father's!) "25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, (3)that God may be all(pas,all, the whole) in all(pas).

- "22 For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: (1)Christ the firstfruits, afterward (2)those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end(3), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father... 28 that God may be all, in all."
   :Peace2:

[MusicLover123]

Thanks Glenda.

To put it a bit differently, UR basically means holding to and believing all the promises of God. Not just picking and choosing ones that we want to happen.

If God wills to never leave or forsake you, we always trust that it will be fulfilled. If God wills for you(and to work in you) to do a certain job for His Kingdom, we always expect for it to happen and not fail. Yet when God wills all to be saved, somehow now it is wishful thinking?

[MusicLover123]

Someone else's response:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been perfected, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part,


1 Corinthians 13:11-13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Speaking from my own experience, the first step in my own awakining, was just the beginning.  Looking back, I thought Finally, now I have the truth, the whole truth. Almost four years have past, and I can clearly see how ridiculous my thinking really was, because everyday from that point, has been a day of new discoveries in God's word.

Nothing speaks of our uniqueness more, than our individual walk with him. Our past experiences, our willingness to accept and acknowledge we are yet babes in this process of learning, and a keen desire to know more, are all a part of our individual understanding.

How can everyone really be of the same mind on all the mysterious hidden in God's word,  when we are All in different stages of the learning process, and like babes we first drink milk, then solids. Crawl, walk, then run. Is growing and maturing in God's ways and understanding any less a process?

To me, what is most important, is to be open and humble to the teacher, accepting that our individual desires and opinions, need to be checked at the door, when we enter the deep mysteries of his words.

[gluecht2]

There are so many roads to take with all of the verses how about asking a specific question about the points/scriptures raised.   I believe that the scripture I have presented has raised significant question on the God's timing issue.  How does one reconcile this view with the woman with the issue of blood?  I also have not seen any offering that contradicts God's will being frustrated by Man's unbelief and for that matter the explanation of Judas's destiny is wanting at best.   That is why I started with it.   It all has to fit together.  As far as the "all" issue (nations; Israel, men...) that can be explained by figures of speech.   I do understand that that is a point of debate depending on what point of view that one start's with.   But, again that is why I mention Judas-honestly again your playing gymnastics with the plain meaning.   RE: do believer's know all truth-I do not understand your folks issue with that.   That is plainly stated in the NT (reviewed above).   Of course to have that knowledge do any good it has to be accessed via faith to be brought to one's mind.  I asked directly RE: UR/CU and got an answer and that answer does not contradict His Word.  So I'll ask how does the woman with the issue of blood square with God's timing issue??

[gluecht2]

God either controls everything or He does not.   What say you??