"God loves you, but you're expendable."
(What GOOD news, eh?)
Blessings to all,
Brian
I guess it is if your name is S. Atan
"Do as God says, not as he does."
:cloud9: That's a good one, Brian, and that's about it in a nutshell. :laughing7: Blessings....
ET in a nutshell: "Love me or I have to torture you forever"
Arminian version: "Love or torture, its your choice"
Calvinist version: "Love or torture, its God's choice"
Of course ETers will protest, and say, but it its justice! Eternal torment(torture) is justice!
Quote from: legoman on November 25, 2009, 06:02:18 PM
ET in a nutshell: "Love me or I have to torture you forever"
Arminian version: "Love or torture, its your choice"
Calvinist version: "Love or torture, its God's choice"
:thumbsup: you said this right and all the other little daughters [doctrines ] of the Mother Harlot :sigh: ......
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: legoman on November 25, 2009, 06:02:18 PM
ET in a nutshell: "Love me or I have to torture you forever"
Arminian version: "Love or torture, its your choice"
Calvinist version: "Love or torture, its God's choice"
Sad but very true. :thumbsup:
Now i know why most modern Christians dont share their faith...they dont want to pass on the 'bad news'.
In fact, when they start spouting off about "justice," I ask:
"If God put everyone into sin without their choice, then wouldn't it be JUST for Him to take everyone out again without their choice??????"
Brian
He calles Himself a judge. He also states all will come out of the sin state.
Then the question is are the new believer forced or tempted (in a positive way)
If I read Saul/Paul road to Damascus I get a feeling force can be used.
Force as with military might makes no believers.
But word, picture and examples can also be seen as force.
Bit of an open question and answer.
Does Sin Still Exist ????
Can or Will God remove ALL Sin from Humankind????
IMO that happened at the day He rose from the Dead....
And Grace started "About" at the time of the following script.
Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken
one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be
converted, and I should
heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God
is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they
will hear it. Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
This is just a little part of why I don't believe that Humankind is under sin, and All "have been made Righteous" already(made alive, vivified, saved), We just have to hear and see
with the proper stimulus of His Spirit. short version...
Lee Damboise II
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 26, 2009, 07:43:15 PM
Does Sin Still Exist ????
Can or Will God remove ALL Sin from Humankind????
IMO that happened at the day He rose from the Dead....
I know sin is breaking the law.
If the law is removed there is no sin.
But are we really not breaking laws anymore?
Are we perfect right now?
Ok the laws of Moses are (nearly) all gone.
But what for example the law to believe in Jesus. Many fail to keep that law.
Or "thou shall not kill" not all are living to that law either.
So Lee, I don't see that sin is removed.
Yes it will be. Yes. But right now.... hard for me to accept.
WW--
"perfect right now???" absolutely.. Yes. Because
To be Perfect in our bibles means to be 100% made Whole IN JC.. Done when I said so in the above Quote.
The law to believe in JC ???? Haven't read that one as an absolute requirement to salvation YET.
Lee
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Lee perhaps I gotta point out that for me one doesn't exclude the other.
I see/understand UR in two parts:
a] Father has a plan. Jesus is a huge part of that plan. (and done His part perfectly) The outcome of the plan is the fact that all will be in heaven.
b] But I don't believe because Jesus died all suddenly is okay. Ready and done. I think we have to walk to heaven ourselfs. We can run, crawl, fall, get up. Etc etc. Father may or may not put tests on that road. Etc etc. Lets call it the school of hard knocks that lead guaranteed to heaven.
:HeartThrob:
WW--Of course it is all my own opinion and I really don't have "much" to back it up, but just see "IF" it sounds true IN your Spirit...
Now Jesus did his part??? Now it's up to us : that sounds real familiar...
That all "will" be in Heaven???
What if " Thy Kingdom Come" has come and now Lives IN mankind. Then His kingdom "has" come and all are in it like all "was" in Adam's kingdom, the old kingdom of death.
That walk you talked about is very real, but I see it as a short cut to being an overcomer in this age and not waiting till another moment "intime"...
Lee :icon_flower: :cloud9:
QuoteWW--Of course it is all my own opinion and I really don't have "much" to back it up, but just see "IF" it sounds true IN your Spirit...
It's just my feeling. And I wrote it as such. Otherwise I woulf have showed you some verses.
QuoteNow Jesus did his part??? Now it's up to us : that sounds real familiar...
You are implying a ET similarity that noone actually does what s/he sound do for salvation?
In that case I point you to what I wrote: "...outcome is a fact..." not just a possibility as in ET.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 26, 2009, 06:21:46 PM
Now i know why most modern Christians dont share their faith...they dont want to pass on the 'bad news'.
Thats a good answer to my question in the other thread I started!
Ok, then if mankind (or individually) don't do their part ever, what would be the our come? in the two part system of JC's Part and not ours?
Equals What?
Quote from: Lee Damboise on November 26, 2009, 10:00:52 PM
Ok, then if mankind (or individually) don't do their part ever, what would be the our come? in the two part system of JC's Part and not ours?
I'm not allowed to discuss this (in depth) so I just give a few hints :icon_king:
Father draws people. Mankind can't do anything of it's own.
How long it takes? I can't answer that. But that's not really something we have control over. Everyone is saved in his/her own time. That time is set by Father. We don't know His schedule. We can only hope we are scheduled right now but it just as well can be scheduled for 2065.
QuoteEquals What?
I don't understand that question.
First thing: Happy Thanksgiving...
I agree with your last statement whole heartily.
That then has been answered. by your above comment
I meant, will the rest be anywhere other than back IN God.
But I have your answer. thank you, and God Bless.
Happy thanksgiving to you too Lee.
Pitty it's not the best one for you. Condolances for your lost friends.
Thank You, We were just co-workers in a potatoe House packing house,
I just wanted prayers for them.
(Happy belated turkey day to all!)
Lee and WW:
I am enjoying reading your posts here..thanks!
A few thoughts:
God is just, therefore: "you break it, you pay for it." (I kinda' think that is the "justice" ETers talk about, and yet it proves the salvation of all when looking at what God has done for mankind!!)
Also, did Saul choose God, or did God choose Saul? It only takes a split second for God to OPEN our eyes to Him and convert us! Let's not minimize God's power to convert the soul!!
Also, the scriptures state that "all are dead." And, "those who are dead are *free from sin.*"
(I read somewhere of someone who gave an interesting definition of death: "to stop sinning suddenly.) :)
Just wanted to throw these thoughts out there...!
Blessings to all,
Brian
QuoteAlso, the scriptures state that "all are dead." And, "those who are dead are *free from sin.*"
That sounds a bit of a contradiction to me.
IMO are born without sin. So they are not 'dead'
Just 2 make things simpler to discuss lets assume everyone commits his/her first sin at the age of 3.
They sin and then instantly they die. But because they are dead they are free from sin.
That would mean since Jesus there have been zero sinners. Ok there were sinners for a fraction of a second on the moment of the sinning. Because that moment last only a moment it would mean everyon on earth is without sin. Very hard to accept for me. But I'll accept it for a moment. Why are those sinless people cast into LoF the second death?
It would be much easier for me if you had written: "those who are dead the second time are free from sin."
or
"those who exit the second death are free from sin."
QuoteAlso, did Saul choose God, or did God choose Saul? It only takes a split second for God to OPEN our eyes to Him and convert us! Let's not minimize God's power to convert the soul!!
That's a fact. He can. The question is did He say He will do things that way.
Was the conversion of Saul his second death/LoF.
Did he stop sinning after the conversion? I think not. I think he just was converted in a better person and a believer. But not perfect like Jesus.
:2c:
WW:
I don't have answers to all your questions, I can only give you responses in terms of where I am today (tomorrow things may change!).
At the moment, I tend to see "all in sin" as from conception. (Remember that our idea of sin may not be God's idea of it. (I can't see how a loving God would willing subject His creatures to vanity if there weren't a purpose..) In fact, I hear ETers talk about God not "able to be in the presence of sin." Personally, I don't know where they get this, because I see that satan presents himself before the throne of God (book of Job); what's more, Elihu (in my interpretation, symbolizing Jesus the mediator between God and man) tells Job that Job if Job sins it means nothing to God!
So to me, it seems that Christianity (at least in America where I was born and grew up) has this idea that God somehow can't be anywhere where sin is. Yet David says that God is even in Sheol!! To me, there's a problem here..
Who knows..maybe I'm seeing this wrong..
To me, it's not that Paul stopped sinning. It's that God revealed Himself to Paul (Saul) in such a strong way that he converted/was convicted in that instant, and understood what Jesus did for him on the cross: He took away his guilt.
Now people ask, "if we're all saved, then why not live in sin?" Paul gives the answer to this in Romans 6:1 just after explaining the universal restoration in ch. 5.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think that when we die, we ALL go through a fire of purification, and we are left perfect. Yet without Jesus we couldn't be left perfect! (But now that I write this, I'm not so sure myself, since there were 3 people sent into the furnace but a fourth one was seen there with them, protecting them! Maybe salvation existed long before Jesus, and Jesus was just the "gentiles version." ??)
Rambling....... lots on my plate here...
Brian
Some very good thoughts Brian. The way I see this is, when the Father looks at us he sees what Christ did, not what we are and do. Because we are in Christ, or Christ in us we are no more sinners even though while we are in the flesh we are sinners.
(Rom. 8:9) "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you."
Now if we are not in the flesh how can we be sinners? The flesh itself is sin, but we spiritually are not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in us.
CHB
Brian/CHB
This all very confusing to me.
We are created and part of a masterplan. We are her to learn. And when we die the sin is gone.
A little while ago an SS officer was caught. Today he said his thing in court. Basicly it was more like a question. "What's all the fuss about?" What was the lesson that man has learned in life?
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2009, 03:38:20 PM
Brian/CHB
This all very confusing to me.
We are created and part of a masterplan. We are her to learn. And when we die the sin is gone.
Yes, it is.
Quote from: WhiteWingsA little while ago an SS officer was caught. Today he said his thing in court. Basicly it was more like a question. "What's all the fuss about?" What was the lesson that man has learned in life?
Hi WhiteWings,
Don't know what is confusing to you? I think we learn the consequences of evil and the blessings of good things. Isn't that what we started out with? Adam and Eve and the tree of good and evil.
This flesh is sin, but if we are in Christ, we are dead already, therefore we are not sinners spiritually speaking. We are dead to sin if Christ dwells in us.
CHB
Servants-Not beings IN His Anointed. Servants are outside of Him.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.(IMO) Grace, God Revealing to Humankind -one on- one Matt. 16:17
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (About 2000 years ago)
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men (Carnal)because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Servant issue here tells "me" that Paul must be 1 talking to old friends in the old system of law, 2 But the gift , is refering to the new way, IN HIM
IMO OKay, Lee
In other words, the sin can be gone before you die physically? This is the first resurrection?
But, I do not believe this is true for everyone. Only a few.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Quote from: CHB on November 27, 2009, 06:33:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWingsA little while ago an SS officer was caught. Today he said his thing in court. Basicly it was more like a question. "What's all the fuss about?" What was the lesson that man has learned in life?
Don't know what is confusing to you? I think we learn the consequences of evil and the blessings of good things. Isn't that what we started out with? Adam and Eve and the tree of good and evil.
And what has that SS officer learned?
I understand the thing about learning CHB.
Some murderers really regret what they did. But as said the only regret of that SS officer was that he didn't kill more.
So basicly Jesus released us of teh concequences of sin but many sinners don't even know or agree they sinned.
Well it really is truly IMO
Revelation is a book that carnally was end in about 70 A.D.or with in a few decades.
Spiritually, it is all about the appearing of the son of God in Humanity on a continuing bases , the coming of JC from that time forward until time ends.
Read John Preston Eby: From The Candlestick To The Throne ( All Parts ) good luck for anyone because it is %100 and 10 percent Spiritual.
The first rezz and the second rezz ???
First was when JC Dragged and Made All Things Alive on or about His Rezz Day.
The second is when humankind (a diddle of all things) are awakened to the knowledge of what God "has done for them" made them non-sinners out of death, then the carnal understanding dies and you live NOW IN THAT LIFE THAT WAS GIVEN OUTSIDE OF carnality and sin and death. IN His Christ.
I know that when we read verses such as:
Eph. 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
we sometimes ask ourselves, "who is this WE?" When Paul talks about God
- quickening
- raising up
- and making us to sit in heavenly places
is he talking about current believers, or the entire world? Did God do the 3 things above to everybody or just to those who would believe in Jesus in future generations?? Because it sounds like a DONE DEAL to me!....
Blessings to all,
Brian
That is exactly what I try to teach...
done deal
the second rezz is when we wake up to "who we are" God on earth. or as the saying is suppose to go -that 1000 yr reign- starting at JC's Rezz Day. And that 1000 yr reign is { about } 1000 x 364.5 x1000 give or take.
Have all mankind gone to heaven???? After Rezz Day???
Where is HEAVEN!!!!!!!!!!!! LEARN THE TRUTH. ALL there is no other
Gen 1:6 And saying is the Elohim, "Become shall an atmosphere in the midst of the water, and coming is a separation between water and water.
Gen 1:7 And coming is it to be so. And making is the Elohim the atmosphere. And separating is He between the water which is under the atmosphere and the water which is above the atmosphere.
Gen 1:8 And calling is the Elohim the atmosphere "heavens." And seeing is the Elohim that it is good. And coming is it to be evening and coming to be morning, the second day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 27, 2009, 08:06:00 PM
I know that when we read verses such as:
Eph. 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
we sometimes ask ourselves, "who is this WE?" When Paul talks about God
- quickening
- raising up
- and making us to sit in heavenly places
is he talking about current believers, or the entire world? Did God do the 3 things above to everybody or just to those who would believe in Jesus in future generations?? Because it sounds like a DONE DEAL to me!....
Blessings to all,
Brian
Sounds like the three courts of the temple, again
Dead [outter court], Quickened [inner court], Raised up to heavenly places [holy of holies]
ET Proves that "Justice" is more important than "Forgiveness".
However, True Forgiveness does not demand "Justice".
Before you write anything in response, think long a hard about what this means to you in particular and society in general. Do you know any "Justice-Centric" people? Do you find yourself draw to them? I bet you don't!
What is it about Jesus that draws you to Him? I bet it's not "Justice"!
Ok, I admit it, I despise the "Justice-Speak" of ETers!
If ET is true, the life and mission of Jesus was a Failure with respect to "Justice".
In His Love, John (one unjustly justified, that is, Forgiven) :HeartThrob:
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on November 27, 2009, 08:06:00 PM
is he talking about current believers, or the entire world? Did God do the 3 things above to everybody or just to those who would believe in Jesus in future generations?? Because it sounds like a DONE DEAL to me!....
According to some the tense of the translations is quite often wrong.
What in Englisg reads as "a done deal" reads in Greek "an ongoing deal"
A process started long ago but still going on. Maybe that applies to this situation too???
Quote from: jfraysse on November 27, 2009, 09:01:43 PM
Before you write anything in response, think long a hard about what this means to you in particular and society in general. Do you know any "Justice-Centric" people? Do you find yourself draw to them? I bet you don't!
What is it about Jesus that draws you to Him? I bet it's not "Justice"!
I am drawn to the justice of Jesus as much as to his mercy. Justice is important. I trust his justice.
Without justice, mercy would be irrelevant.
Isaiah 30:18
Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you,and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you.For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.
Lee,
I am fascinated by the idea of a DONE deal. The more I hear, the more I'm drawn!!
WW,
even if the greek is an "ongoing" definition, my question still remains: who is the "we" that Paul says have been raised with Christ and placed in heavenly places? Did God "know" who He would save and who He would not save when He raised the Son?? Or is it an "across the board, whether-you-like-it-or-not"- type action that involved all mankind? Or is there a third interpretation that I've missed?
Jfrasse and Molly,
I also tend to lean towards God's mercy. Maybe it's because I feel so inadequate as a person, maybe it's because I have this strong association of justice with torment/punishment.
I am however also starting to see God's justice as a good thing, such as:
God puts man in sin, God takes him out again. (That seems "just" to me.)
Also, many times in scripture people such as David yearned for God's justice, not as, "God, will you please destroy all the people I don't like" but as, "God, we need to see you and learn more about you." To me, God's justice is the latter.
In other words: man's justice= eye for an eye. (Many Christians still preach it today!!)
God's justice= turn the other cheek. Non-resistance to evil.
Blessings to all,
Brian
the best reply in short to the "is it a Done Deal is" following the thinking of
sigler.org ministries, he has Coming out of darkness on tape Cd, and books., and Realities of Righteouness on tape too. all his tape are good. Start there.
\
Lee
Hay any one, what happened to the spell checker, mine is not working..
I'm not disagreeing with any here methinks, but just to clarify, hopefully without Hi-Jacking this thread, I'd like to define a few terms to set the frame work for my comments:
Mercy is an alleviation or elimination of the consequences of transgression (sin). (Rom 3:23). Mercy does not necessarily involve forgiveness although it may.
Forgiveness is stronger than mercy, IMHO. Forgiveness is a restoration to a state of "newness" as if the transgression never occurred. Scarlet sins made white as snow and remembered no more. Isa:1:18, Heb:10:17. Forgiveness DOES NOT REQUIRE Justice.
Justice involves a fair punishment for a crime (sin?) as per Matt 5:38 with each person being responsible for their own sin De:24:16, 2Ki:14:6, 2Ch:25:4.
Dying for another's sin does NOT meet the Biblical, nor the secular, definition of Justice however the consensual laying down of one's life for another is the ultimate act of Love (Joh:15:13)
This is why I said that Jesus' Life and mission was not primarily about Justice.
Love, Forgiveness, Mercy and the relief of human suffering? Absolutely! But Justice – no way!
In His Love, John :HeartThrob: