Dreamin

[sheila]

    what the book of revelations is.........the revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE HIM....to SHOW His servants

   what must soon take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John,  WHO testifies to

everything he saw- that is,  THE WORD OF GOD AND THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST......

   so whatever man may say it is,his opinon etc..does not supercede what the scripture says it is.....and since all scripture

is beneficial...BLESSED IS THE ONE WHO READS THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY,nd Blessed are those who hear it.

and take to heart what is written in it.    2 Peter 1;20   Above all,you must understand no prophecy of scripture

come about by the prophet's own interprettion,for prophecy never had it's origen in the will of man,but men spoke

from God,as they were carried along of the Holy spirit.

[VineBranch]

    so whatever man may say it is,his opinon etc..does not supercede what the scripture says it is

But if we start from the assumption it is all symbol and metaphor, then what is it really?

[sheila]

   'what is it?"   Hidden manna in the ark of the testimony/covenant in heaven   Rev 11;19 and Rev 2;17

[VineBranch]

   'what is it?"   Hidden manna in the ark of the testimony/covenant in heaven   Rev 11;19 and Rev 2;17

So Revelations is a white rock with a new name and a box with  lightning, voices,  thunder,  an earthquake, and great hail.   Thanks, that helps a lot.  How could I have been so blind as not to have seen how clear that is.

[sheila]

the word 'manna' means..what is it.......  the word sarcasm..means to cut flesh with  words...I will not converse with you

anymore. why should I be ripped by your tongue whenIspeak of beautifulspiritual things.

 

[VineBranch]

I wasn't being sarcastic!  I was using irony as a rhetorical devise to show my incredulity toward your statement.  It wasn't a personal shot at you; I was showing that I didn't believe your sentence had answered my question.  Why would you take that personally?

[redhotmagma]

I wasn't being sarcastic!  I was using irony as a rhetorical devise to show my incredulity toward your statement.  It wasn't a personal shot at you; I was showing that I didn't believe your sentence had answered my question.  Why would you take that personally?

Reads like sarcasm to me  :flamebreath:

[jabcat]

Well, I know from personal experience (and from scripture) that the tongue is a difficult thing to tame.  I also know it's very easy to wound with words, I've done it often.  But it's definitely something to strive to control/submit it to the Lord, because it can sure cause dissention and strife.

[jabcat]

for the member requesting deletion of their account due to the "spirit of dissention", I'd ask you to hold on a bit if you can

[lomarah]

the word 'manna' means..what is it.......  the word sarcasm..means to cut flesh with  words...I will not converse with you

anymore. why should I be ripped by your tongue whenIspeak of beautifulspiritual things.

Amen Sheila. (I so very much love and appreciate your posts and the Truth you speak!!)

VB ask Daddy to show you these things. His Spirit wrote them and His same Spirit reveals them. The carnal mind is enmity toward them and cannot grasp them.

[ded2daworld]

How very amusing that if someone doesn't agree with us - THEY have a spiritual problem.
How very amusing that if someone offends us - THEY have a problem because "Love takes no offense"
My how upset we get. Some here refuse to acknowledge I've even posted when I ask them a question directly in a post, other refuse to talk to some other members for some imagined offense.
Wow! We are all so different from non-christians that get offended or feel slighted because of misunderstandings.
We can't get along with our brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth so we ignore them and/or tell us they aren't REALLY a child of God. Or they can't possibly know God like we do because (Gasp!) they disagree with us.

Well, I'll wait to see if this post gets left up. It may be seen as causing dissension but I'm just trying to point out how God's children (all of us) are being childish.

[VineBranch]

I wasn't being sarcastic!  I was using irony as a rhetorical devise to show my incredulity toward your statement.  It wasn't a personal shot at you; I was showing that I didn't believe your sentence had answered my question.  Why would you take that personally?

Reads like sarcasm to me  :flamebreath:

Then you just ain't readin it rite.

[VineBranch]

Amen Sheila. (I so very much love and appreciate your posts and the Truth you speak!!)

That everyone who says things differently is inherently wrong?

VB ask Daddy to show you these things. His Spirit wrote them and His same Spirit reveals them. The carnal mind is enmity toward them and cannot grasp them.

So, I'm not allowed to be ironic, because someone might think it's sarcasm, but you are allowed to be condescending because she is your friend?  Are those who agree with her more spiritual then?  Again, I have no personal stake in the answer:  God is bigger then any of us.  And to whomever will blast me for what I say and call me names:  I forgive you.

[VineBranch]

Well, I know from personal experience (and from scripture) that the tongue is a difficult thing to tame.  I also know it's very easy to wound with words, I've done it often.  But it's definitely something to strive to control/submit it to the Lord, because it can sure cause dissention and strife.

Agreed.  Does this include the phrases:  "I will not converse with you

anymore. why should I be ripped by your tongue whenIspeak of beautifulspiritual things."?

[redhotmagma]

VB maybe you could explain the irony in your post for us slower types.

[ded2daworld]

IMO, VB is asking, if you say certain verses of scripture are symbolic/metaphorical what makes you so certain that your interpretation is the correct one? Especially the Book of Revelation which has over 20 valid backed by scripture and word study different interpretations of the SAME verses.? All is opinion. Why take offense when someone questions your opinion and denigrate them and/or snub them.
If God's Word is sufficient for all we need to know(and it is) if there are parts we don't understand, then we don't need to understand it. God wants us to act on what we do understand... and that's plenty.

[VineBranch]

VB maybe you could explain the irony in your post for us slower types.

Rj asked me what I thought of the book of Revelations.  I told him that throughout my life I have had different people tell me what it is, what it is about etc.  After a list of the different times I have asked and received different answers about what it really is I finally said I liked the idea that it was a guide book for the end times, but that ultimately I didn't know what it was, or should be or wants to be.

Although I was waiting for RJ to answer, Shelia jumped in and said that:  "the revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE HIM....to SHOW His servants what must soon take place." I saw that as kinda what I said:  a guide book for end times. (Maybe I wouldn't have used 'soon' seeing as how the book is about two thousand years old, but soon may be relative.) So, not symbol at all, but it is what it literally says.  She then states: "so whatever man may say it is,his opinion etc..does not supercede what the scripture says it is."  Pretty much a given in my world.

I therefore asked (because my post was actually a post to RJ  who asked the question, and he said it's all symbol and metaphor):  "But if we start from the assumption it is all symbol and metaphor, then what is it really?"  This was a way of asking how can we show it isn't a metaphor or a symbol to those who start with that assumption.  The question is, what is the book of Revelations? Rj says it's metaphor and symbol, Sheila says it's literal.

Her answer:  "'what is it?"   Hidden manna in the ark of the testimony/covenant in heaven   Rev 11;19 and Rev 2;17."  I was confused because those were metaphors and definitely symbols. It clearly says the manna is hidden, so how could we know what it is if  we can't see it? So, I looked up the scriptural references.  The first one says:  "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."  (Rev 11:19 ) The second one says:  " He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."  (Rev 2:17)

Does any of this answer my question to her?  Not in my opinion.  Does any of this gain-say what RJ says?  No.   So, by telling me it's really the revelation of end times and it is exactly what it says it is regardless of what man says, and then using scriptural references which are overtly symbolic and metaphorical, she defeats her own position. What, for example, is the white rock all about? I felt justified in using irony because there appeared to be no thought given to the answer, just some throw away scriptures which defeated what she said.  By saying that her answer cleared up the confusion, I was saying that her answers merely create more confusion:  that is the classic definition of irony.

I know that these boards are full of people who simply throw away posts to things they don't read, but I was looking forward to having an answer to a serious question answered seriously and with some thought attached. RJ seemed to be heading there.  This answer ... well.   I thought at least we read our own postings to see if they made sense.

Ded2daworld's explanation is spot on.

[Ross]

Hi VineBranch;
Not us in parts. referring to some will be in the first resurrection- so parts is part of mankind, which makes the plan seem to be carried out in stages of development; hence firstfruits, then the rest in the next phase so that ALL will learn the right way of life.

[VineBranch]

Hi VineBranch;
Not us in parts. referring to some will be in the first resurrection- so parts is part of mankind, which makes the plan seem to be carried out in stages of development; hence firstfruits, then the rest in the next phase so that ALL will learn the right way of life.

Ah, got it mankind is divided into parts.  Sorry to have been so dim. I am still woefully ignorant of the second resurrection and what it means.  Thanks.

When scripture talks about the sea giving up its dead and every grave being empty are those then just believers who are being resurrected and is that the first one?  The unbelievers stay in their graves until later?  Or is that the people born after the first resurrection?

[eaglesway]

VB maybe you could explain the irony in your post for us slower types.

Rj asked me what I thought of the book of Revelations.  I told him that throughout my life I have had different people tell me what it is, what it is about etc.  After a list of the different times I have asked and received different answers about what it really is I finally said I liked the idea that it was a guide book for the end times, but that ultimately I didn't know what it was, or should be or wants to be.

Although I was waiting for RJ to answer, Shelia jumped in and said that:  "the revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE HIM....to SHOW His servants what must soon take place." I saw that as kinda what I said:  a guide book for end times. (Maybe I wouldn't have used 'soon' seeing as how the book is about two thousand years old, but soon may be relative.) So, not symbol at all, but it is what it literally says.  She then states: "so whatever man may say it is,his opinion etc..does not supercede what the scripture says it is."  Pretty much a given in my world.

I therefore asked (because my post was actually a post to RJ  who asked the question, and he said it's all symbol and metaphor):  "But if we start from the assumption it is all symbol and metaphor, then what is it really?"  This was a way of asking how can we show it isn't a metaphor or a symbol to those who start with that assumption.  The question is, what is the book of Revelations? Rj says it's metaphor and symbol, Sheila says it's literal.

Her answer:  "'what is it?"   Hidden manna in the ark of the testimony/covenant in heaven   Rev 11;19 and Rev 2;17."  I was confused because those were metaphors and definitely symbols. It clearly says the manna is hidden, so how could we know what it is if  we can't see it? So, I looked up the scriptural references.  The first one says:  "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."  (Rev 11:19 ) The second one says:  " He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."  (Rev 2:17)

Does any of this answer my question to her?  Not in my opinion.  Does any of this gain-say what RJ says?  No.   So, by telling me it's really the revelation of end times and it is exactly what it says it is regardless of what man says, and then using scriptural references which are overtly symbolic and metaphorical, she defeats her own position. What, for example, is the white rock all about? I felt justified in using irony because there appeared to be no thought given to the answer, just some throw away scriptures which defeated what she said.  By saying that her answer cleared up the confusion, I was saying that her answers merely create more confusion:  that is the classic definition of irony.

I know that these boards are full of people who simply throw away posts to things they don't read, but I was looking forward to having an answer to a serious question answered seriously and with some thought attached. RJ seemed to be heading there.  This answer ... well.   I thought at least we read our own postings to see if they made sense.

Ded2daworld's explanation is spot on.

Of all the books in the Bible that cannot be pigeon holed, IMO Revelations is IT :o). It includes historical prophecy, literal exhortations to prototypical churches that apply in every generation. it includes symblolic metaphors- pictures of the true living church of Jesus(the ecclesia) that are both for the NOW in every generation and also for the final "filling up" and "completion" of the body of Christ in this age- with glimpses into the next age or two.

It is written in the language of parables and prophecy- the same language used by Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah- etc.

When Zechariah sees a Lampstand with two olive trees upon it he is seeing Israel as he was meant to be, the light of the world before Messiah comes.

When Ezekiel sees dry bones and must prophesy to the wind in order to raise them, he seeing, at least on one level- the means by which every great restoration of God begins- a fresh release of the "sword of the spirit, living and active- the word of God".

These prophetic books of the OT mixed metaphorical pictures of God and His people with social commentary, exhortations to righteousness, specific prophecies of impending historical events and visions from behind the veil of hidden things that were occuring in secret. On top of all that were scattered pieces of the puzzles of what is hidden and yet "always being revealed to seekers" in our own generation.

The revelation John received  contains all of the above and more. It is not a book of doctrine and eschatological timelines, altho it contains some clues to such things- they are not the core purpose of the book IMO.

In every generation since the book was written, "God-breathed" through John- it speaks to the reader IN THAT GENERATION things that "are and things that will be" from the one who "was and is and is to come".

The purpose of it, in my opinion, is taht as saints read it, like a glass through which hidden things are brought to light, and share what they see- the CORPORATE VOICE begins to speak forth what "THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES".

"Come let every one who thirsts DRINK FREELY of the water of life......the Spirit and the Bride say COME".e

I believe the revelation is an INVITATION to the inner mysteries (wheels within wheels :o) of the one who, according to His kind intention which HE purposed in Himself, is gathering all things together into one in Christ(EPh 1). The one who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His own will is giving glimpses to each of us who digs there to share with one another, and from which we may reap the COMMON VISION that Jesus, the "head over all things to His ecclesia, the fulness of Him who fills all in all"- is giving to those who are seeking to come into the "unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God"(Eph 4).

[lomarah]

Oops, my post was not condescending but I see now how it could've been taken as such. VB what I meant was, you are asking many questions and I used to do the same, but I realized the only way to get the truth is to ask Father for it and have His Spirit reveal it to you. There are many opinions on what is written in the bible but the only one I care to learn it from is Him. I did the bible university thing, studied til the cows came home and came out more confused than ever. It wasn't until I started learning from Him again, and from those taught directly by Him, that I began to see the truth rather than confusion. (Certainly there is a place for study and I am not saying not to study, which I have been accused of before. Only that we need to ask our Father to reveal the truth in anything to us.)

I "amen"ed Sheila's post because she certainly is speaking of beautiful spiritual things and seemed to be being mocked.

[irenic-inkwell]

Of all the books in the Bible that cannot be pigeon holed, IMO Revelations is IT :o). It includes historical prophecy, literal exhortations to prototypical churches that apply in every generation. it includes symblolic metaphors- pictures of the true living church of Jesus(the ecclesia) that are both for the NOW in every generation and also for the final "filling up" and "completion" of the body of Christ in this age- with glimpses into the next age or two.

It is written in the language of parables and prophecy- the same language used by Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah- etc.

When Zechariah sees a Lampstand with two olive trees upon it he is seeing Israel as he was meant to be, the light of the world before Messiah comes.

When Ezekiel sees dry bones and must prophesy to the wind in order to raise them, he seeing, at least on one level- the means by which every great restoration of God begins- a fresh release of the "sword of the spirit, living and active- the word of God".

These prophetic books of the OT mixed metaphorical pictures of God and His people with social commentary, exhortations to righteousness, specific prophecies of impending historical events and visions from behind the veil of hidden things that were occuring in secret. On top of all that were scattered pieces of the puzzles of what is hidden and yet "always being revealed to seekers" in our own generation.

The revelation John received  contains all of the above and more. It is not a book of doctrine and eschatological timelines, altho it contains some clues to such things- they are not the core purpose of the book IMO.

In every generation since the book was written, "God-breathed" through John- it speaks to the reader IN THAT GENERATION things that "are and things that will be" from the one who "was and is and is to come".

The purpose of it, in my opinion, is taht as saints read it, like a glass through which hidden things are brought to light, and share what they see- the CORPORATE VOICE begins to speak forth what "THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCHES".

"Come let every one who thirsts DRINK FREELY of the water of life......the Spirit and the Bride say COME".e

I believe the revelation is an INVITATION to the inner mysteries (wheels within wheels :o) of the one who, according to His kind intention which HE purposed in Himself, is gathering all things together into one in Christ(EPh 1). The one who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His own will is giving glimpses to each of us who digs there to share with one another, and from which we may reap the COMMON VISION that Jesus, the "head over all things to His ecclesia, the fulness of Him who fills all in all"- is giving to those who are seeking to come into the "unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God"(Eph 4).

I was about to introduce myself, but read a couple of posts first and was a bit sidetracked by your post.  eaglesay:  What a noteworthy POV of Revelation.  I've noted much of it (pen, ink, notebook) and will come back tomorrow to gather some more notes from your interesting POV of Revelation.  Thank you!

[sheila]

actually,Iposted Rev 1;1to show what the scriptures said the book of Revelations said it was.due to VB's comment about

some said this,some said that. Andthesymbolgy beingsomewhat confusing..with many interpretations. The comment..

what is it.....I was going with that....the manna...hidden manna=hidden word of Christ/ testimony/prophecy.

Jesus taught in parables..rich in symbology.  the hidden manna was kept in the ark[Christ]temple/body]and just as

David ate the bread of the presence..fromthe HighPreist..sotooJesus Christ  will feed hidden manna to His.hidden in

symbols.[thosehiddeninChrist]


   The Revelation/unveiling of His testimony/prophecy........what I close no-one canopen,what Iopen no-onecanclose

  is also shown in the seven seals onthe scrollin Rev 5.the sevenseals...upon His word...is revealed inthe 7 letters

to the elect..asto what needs totake place forHim toopen to youthe door...He will give these things to those who overcome

the problems/snares,listedin the 7 letters....  after thisIlooked and there before me stood adoor standing open in heaven

It is  aguide as VB surmised...Iwas attempting to show from the scriptures this very thing.


       His rewardsof right to eat from TOL,noharmfrom secounddeath,crownoflife,hiddenmanna,white stone,new name

  authority overthenations,morningstar,dressedinwhite,nameinbookoflife,kept through the hourof trial, etc...allthesethings

representbeingfound spotless and  blameless at His coming..oF the first resurrection......or Highcalling..come up here

He refines,rebukes,guides and Blesses inthis revelation and testimony


        Allofthese symbols/tokensgiven...havetheir'meanings'inthe scriptures...for ex...right to eat from TOL........in Genesis

we see an angelwithaflaming sword who guards the way ofthe TOL.....Jesus also states....He willcome andfight against you

with the sword of His mouth..lest ye repent..in Rev 2;16...this is showing..His authority to open or close the way. Also

He acknowledges you before His angels...so you are not barred to eat from the Tol



     

[jabcat]

Oops, my post was not condescending but I see now how it could've been taken as such.

Your post wasn't condescending. 

We have some sort of attitude at work on the forum right now with an individual or two, that's showing itself publically and causing others to not want to post.  It's expected that we all speak to each other with respect (without constantly flaming/baiting [against forum guidelines]).  This will be addressed further by PM later.

[jbertonbounds]

Oops, my post was not condescending but I see now how it could've been taken as such.

Your post wasn't condescending. 

We have some sort of attitude at work on the forum right now with an individual or two, that's showing itself publically and causing others to not want to post.  It's expected that we all speak to each other with respect (without constantly flaming/baiting [against forum guidelines]).  This will be addressed further by PM later.

LIKE